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Jump Freighters- WTH was CCP thinking?

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Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.08.21 12:04:00 - [151] Originally by: chromez0r Originally by: Bellum Eternus Exactly. JFs should be possible to kill, not nearly impossible to kill. IMO they should be removed from the game completely, as there isn't any way to fix the flaws in the game design without making other ships (freighters) redundant. im⋅pos⋅si⋅ble - [im-pos-uh-buhl] ûadjective 1. not possible; unable to be, exist, happen, etc. 2. unable to be done, performed, effected, etc.: an impossible assignment. 3. incapable of being true, as a rumor. 4. not to be done, endured, etc., with any degree of reason or propriety: an impossible situation. 5. utterly impracticable: an impossible plan. 6. hopelessly unsuitable, difficult, or objectionable. pos⋅si⋅ble - [pos-uh-buhl] ûadjective 1. that may or can be, exist, happen, be done, be used, etc.: a disease with no possible cure. 2. that may be true or may be the case, as something concerning which one has no knowledge to the contrary: It is possible that he has already gone. so ah if something is "nearly" impossible, doesn't that make it possible? scratchs head How about "more probable"? Is that better verbiage? -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.21 12:14:00 - [152] So, the OP wants to remove or nerf a defensless ship costing more than multiple dreads, boring to fly and to train for, with 1 boring purpose, sharing the same jump mechanics (but worse) of an host of other ships? - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Rockhead Rumple	Posted - 2009.08.21 12:41:00 - [153] Edited by: Rockhead Rumple on 21/08/2009 12:43:52 - nvm. Please come up with arguements instead of poorly attempted sarcasm. If you're too ****ing poor for a jump freighter it may be an indication that you don't understand the game mechanics well enough to be able to participate in this discussion anyway.
DeathRavens	Posted - 2009.08.21 13:16:00 - [154] No kill mail for you.You fail now gtfo out of here.Because i said so.
Dionisius Gallente Saiyans United death from above..	Posted - 2009.08.21 13:30:00 - [155] Cry a bit more Bellum... _____________________________________
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League	Posted - 2009.08.21 21:16:00 - [156] LOL at the Northern alliance care bears insulting anyone daring to propose a change to their easy mode logistics. Important Internet Spaceship League Wants You
Feilamya Pelennor Swarm THE KLINGONS	Posted - 2009.08.21 23:28:00 - [157] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Let's play a little game for a second. Pretend you're a lead game designer and someone comes to you with a new idea to be added to Eve: You got the story all wrong. This is what happened: <Junior Game Designer> Hi boss, I have this great idea for a new type of ship. <You> Oh yeah, what is it? <Junior Game Designer> Well, it's a capital ship, exactly like a carrier, except it can't fight and is useful for hauling stuff only! <You> Hmm. You mean like a freighter with jump drive? Sounds pretty awesome! But wouldn't players just use carriers instead? <Junior Game Designer> Damn, that's right ... Screw the whole idea. <You> Nah, don't screw it. We need some new content for our next expansion! <Junior Game Designer> Hmm. We could nerf carriers... <You> That's the spirit! Let's nerf carriers then. The next expansion will be awesome!
SiJira	Posted - 2009.08.22 20:20:00 - [158] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Let's play a little game for a second. Pretend you're a lead game designer and someone comes to you with a new idea to be added to Eve: <Junior Game Designer> Hi boss, I have this great idea for a new type of ship. <You> Oh yeah, what is it? <Junior Game Designer> Well, it's a capital ship, exactly like a freighter, but with slightly less capacity, but here's the fun part- it's nearly invulnerable! It will be able to use cynos to jump directly to heavily defended POSes, and with warp to zero it can escape to high sec space without worrying about being attacked! <You> Hmm. Sounds pretty awesome, but what about getting back into lowsec/0.0? Won't it have to jump into vulnerable space and be caught away from the gate? I mean, it could always logoffski like the Russians do it, but that isn't 100% reliable now is it? <Junior Game Designer> Well, I've thought that through as well- the jump freighters will be able to cyno DIRECTLY OUT OF HIGHSEC SPACE. How cool will that be?! <You> Now you're talkin! Wow, great job! Once we add these into the game I'm certainly getting one. Using a regular freighter is so scary, what with actually being able to be locked and all. Oooohhhh, and with jump bridges and cyno jammers, it'll be super safe in 0.0! I can't wait! Sarcasm aside, coupled with WTZ, POSes, jump bridges and cyno jammers jump freighters provide easy logistics with near 100% immunity to being destroyed. WTF? I don't see the risk/reward here. i made these predictions before the ships came out Trashed sig, Shark was here
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2009.08.22 23:06:00 - [159] Originally by: fivetide humidyear ...and as for stations sometimes people hit the little sticky out bit and fly 200km off station before the jump timer is up... Great game design when when the only way a ship can be killed (baring stupid pilots) is "that little sticky out bit on them stations" I think you just proved the OPs point. SKUNK (o)
Princess Misha Caldari	Posted - 2009.08.22 23:28:00 - [160] Edited by: Princess Misha on 22/08/2009 23:29:50 Currently a JF cost about 4.2 B To solve this 'issue', lets create an 'anti-docking' ship... Lets say a T2 BS-hull costing 4.2B isk with this anti docking ability? No guns no drones just an anti docking ability... costing 4.2b How would you feel now? A DEFENCELESS ship with ONLY ONE purpose costing THAT much...

Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.08.22 23:44:00 - [161] Originally by: SiJira i made these predictions before the ships came out As did I. I'm simply reiterating. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Rotnac Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.23 00:06:00 - [162] I'd like to know how many of the people *****ing in here about JFs have ever actually had to help with logistics for a large 0.0 entity? Or have done anything but suck at lowsec piracy?
Mr Reason	Posted - 2009.08.23 00:46:00 - [163] Originally by: Rotnac I'd like to know how many of the people *****ing in here about JFs have ever actually had to help with logistics for a large 0.0 entity? Or have done anything but suck at lowsec piracy? u mad? You also missed the point, DUE to all these long/instant hauling options there ARE these large 0.0 entities, which makes it boring.
Ahz	Posted - 2009.08.23 00:50:00 - [164] Originally by: Bellum Eternus WTF? I don't see the risk/reward here. You don't eh? 3rd most expensive ship class in-game behind Titans and Mother ships, they do only one thing and they're completely defenseless on their own. That's on the risk side. What's the right level of reward? They're hard as heck to catch if a supporting gang is taking care of it. That seems fair. But it's still not impossible to catch them. Take a small gang and some portable bubbles with you and get creative. I've also got to wonder how big a problem this is. They've been in game for almost a year now and I've only run into one or two of them. They're pretty rare where I am.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.08.23 01:21:00 - [165] Originally by: Ahz Originally by: Bellum Eternus WTF? I don't see the risk/reward here. You don't eh? 3rd most expensive ship class in-game behind Titans and Mother ships, they do only one thing and they're completely defenseless on their own. That's on the risk side. What's the right level of reward? They're hard as heck to catch if a supporting gang is taking care of it. That seems fair. But it's still not impossible to catch them. Take a small gang and some portable bubbles with you and get creative. I've also got to wonder how big a problem this is. They've been in game for almost a year now and I've only run into one or two of them. They're pretty rare where I am. I've been in systems where I see at least one or two per hour cyno in and jump into highsec with complete impunity. I run into dozens every day. It's a big problem, just not to you. To everyone else who seems to think that Eve is confined to 0.0: bubbles aren't always an option. And eve if they are, how do bubbles change the problem of being able to dock instantly, or land on a gate and jump into highsec to safety? Bubbles don't change that. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League	Posted - 2009.08.23 10:33:00 - [166] Edited by: Omarvelous on 23/08/2009 10:33:52 Originally by: Rotnac I'd like to know how many of the people ***ing in here about JFs have ever actually had to help with logistics for a large 0.0 entity? Or have done anything but suck at lowsec piracy? That's the point. You have it too easy to do logistics. If it was more difficult your crappy internet empire wouldn't be so big. Smaller empires = more room for other smaller empires in 0.0. Originally by:** Bellum Eternus I've been in systems where I see at least one or two per hour cyno in and jump into highsec with complete impunity. I run into dozens every day. It's a big problem, just not to you. To everyone else who seems to think that Eve is confined to 0.0: bubbles aren't always an option. And eve if they are, how do bubbles change the problem of being able to dock instantly, or land on a gate and jump into highsec to safety? Bubbles don't change that. Forget it dude the 0.0 drones will drown you out with trolling. Just because a ship is expensive doesn't mean it should be invulnerable in low sec. I saw that argument for gate camping motherships prior to the introduction of HICs... Important Internet Spaceship League Wants You
Cpt Branko Beyond Divinity Inc Beyond Virginity	Posted - 2009.08.23 11:26:00 - [167] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 23/08/2009 11:26:37 Originally by: Ahz Originally by: Bellum Eternus WTF? I don't see the risk/reward here. You don't eh? 3rd most expensive ship class in-game behind Titans and Mother ships, they do only one thing and they're completely defenseless on their own. That's on the risk side. Funny, low-sec motherships had their low-sec invulnerability button removed, and they're the second most expensive ship class in game. People had two arguments supporting invulnerable low-sec motherships: (a) It's expensive. (b) It was done once, so it is obviously possible to kill them. But anyway, instant/fast travel in EVE sucks as a rule. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
ArmyOfMe The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2009.08.23 11:33:00 - [168] Originally by: Rotnac I'd like to know how many of the people *****ing in here about JFs have ever actually had to help with logistics for a large 0.0 entity? Or have done anything but suck at lowsec piracy? oh look at bitter goons and nc's when they start thinking about having to put in some work to keep their logistics chains going
Rockhead Rumple	Posted - 2009.08.23 16:20:00 - [169] It is time for Rockhead Rumple to call for a petition!
Veldya Guristari Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2009.08.23 17:10:00 - [170] Originally by: ArmyOfMe Originally by: Rotnac I'd like to know how many of the people *****ing in here about JFs have ever actually had to help with logistics for a large 0.0 entity? Or have done anything but suck at lowsec piracy? oh look at bitter goons and nc's when they start thinking about having to put in some work to keep their logistics chains going lol show me on the doll where the 4S people touched you.

ArmyOfMe The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2009.08.23 17:55:00 - [171] Originally by: Veldya Originally by: ArmyOfMe Originally by: Rotnac I'd like to know how many of the people *****ing in here about JFs have ever actually had to help with logistics for a large 0.0 entity? Or have done anything but suck at lowsec piracy? oh look at bitter goons and nc's when they start thinking about having to put in some work to keep their logistics chains going lol show me on the doll where the 4S people touched you. if u come here to me i wont need a doll
Dimitrios Ypsilanti	Posted - 2009.08.23 17:57:00 - [172] Originally by: Bellum Eternus I run into dozens every day... Dozens? That's a lot of extremely high-value targets! Originally by: Bellum Eternus ... how do bubbles change the problem of being able to dock instantly... If they always jump directly from high sec into docking range then you probably can't catch them. If they have to use a jump bridge or a gate at some point then you can. With dozens of targets you'll get lucky eventually.
Ahz	Posted - 2009.08.24 04:16:00 - [173] Originally by: Feilamya You got the story all wrong. This is what happened: No no no... here's what happened: <Senior Game Designer> Wow, these guys are sticking with this game for years. If this keeps up we'll have a population of tens of thousands of multi-billionaires. New players will never stand a chance outside of high sec. The game will die. We need an ISK sink! <Junior Game Designer> I have an idea! <SGD> Oh yeah, what is it? <JDG> Well, it's a capital ship, exactly like a carrier, except it can't fight and is useful for hauling stuff only! <SGD> Hmm. You mean like a freighter with jump drive? Sounds pretty awesome! But wouldn't players just use carriers instead? <JGD> Hmm. We could nerf carriers... <SGD> That's the spirit! Just make sure these things are hella expensive! Also, they have to be just cool enough to get the rich guys to buy them! Wow, this next expansion will be great!
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.08.24 04:26:00 - [174] Originally by: Dimitrios Ypsilanti Originally by: Bellum Eternus I run into dozens every day... Dozens? That's a lot of extremely high-value targets! Originally by: Bellum Eternus ... how do bubbles change the problem of being able to dock instantly... If they always jump directly from high sec into docking range then you probably can't catch them. If they have to use a jump bridge or a gate at some point then you can. With dozens of targets you'll get lucky eventually. They cyno directly to stations and then warp to zero at a high sec gate and jump into high sec. If they are agressed at a station they dock/log. If they accidentally bounce, they just log. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
BirdieGirl	Posted - 2009.08.24 04:30:00 - [175] We have killed a few (some 2-3 a day) and have lost a fair share too. I would not say they are "invulnerable" Here
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.08.24 05:33:00 - [176] Originally by: BirdieGirl We have killed a few (some 2-3 a day) and have lost a fair share too. I would not say they are "invulnerable" Here After taking a look at your killboard I do agree that Atlas has some fairly consistent success with respect to killing JFs. More than most at any rate. Inspecting the killmails shows that the majority of the kills in lowsec have a capital involved, and more often than not a mothership, if not two or more. I find it interesting to note that the only ships that Atlas as killed less often than JFs are BlackOps, Cap. Industrials (Rorquals), Orcas, Titans, Strategic Cruisers (T3), and Motherhips. The ships killed less often than JFs are either much more expensive than they are (Motherships, Titans, the Rorqual is about comparable) or more rare due to their lack of performance vs. cost (BlackOps, T3). Atlas' killboard shows 19 JFs killed and a total number of ships killed of 66,852. JFs account for 0.0002% of all of Atlas' kills as an alliance. You would think that a ship that is used so commonly and one that is so popular and prolific would be killed more often than that. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Rotnac Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.24 05:48:00 - [177] Although, as JFs are extremely expensive, they are most likely flown with great care and scouting. This would make the ships show up less often despite being fairly frequently used.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.08.24 09:26:00 - [178] Originally by: Rotnac Although, as JFs are extremely expensive, they are most likely flown with great care and scouting. This would make the ships show up less often despite being fairly frequently used. That's just it, they aren't. It's stupid easy to fly one. Cyno into dock range at a station, warp to 0km at highsec gate, jump out. Cyno directly from highsec into 0.0. Wash, rinse, repeat. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Bonny Lee Caldari The Guardian Agency Guardian Federation	Posted - 2009.08.24 09:48:00 - [179] Originally by: Mr Reason Bellum's right though. All the instant hauling, jump bridges, carriers with big cargo holds they all make it too damn easy to move stuff around meaning that the game world becomes smaller, it becomes easier for an alliance to overextend and that means it's nigh impossible for smaller, unaffiliated entities to carve out their own little part of 0.0 It's too easy, and easy isn't better. Remove the long range/insta hauling and sure the current situation will be impossible to keep up, trying to do so would result is a massively overworked logistics crew but that's the point; instead of trying to keep the current borders and situations (which will be impossible) there'll be a massive reshuffling resulting in smaller entities with shorter reaches. making for more and different alliances, all able to compete and battle for their area of space. As it is now, BECAUSE of being able to overextend and relocate assets fast over huge distances, you end up with the big, boring power blocks we have. I'm sure none of the current space holders would like those changes but in the end it would be better for the game. true
fuze Gallente Chosen Path Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2009.08.24 11:11:00 - [180] OP should use a time machine to go back to good'ol 2004.



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