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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.08.19 10:37:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Winterblink
Originally by: Bellum Eternus Also horrible game design. Obviously. People may not agree with me, but you can't say I'm not consistent with my opinions.
You have yet to provide any intelligent alternatives beyond removing them from the game. Lets assume that it's impossible to remove anything you want out, how would you change them to satisfy the issues you perceive are there?
Remove WTZ. Problem solved. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
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Vyktor Abyss
Gallente The Abyss Corporation Abyss Alliance
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Posted - 2009.08.19 10:40:00 -
[32]
You complain too much. It hurts your credibility.
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Suas
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.08.19 10:46:00 -
[33]
JFs are just as invincible as carriers, dreadnaughts and other cyno-capable ships. If their pilot makes no mistakes (cynos in 1k from POS shield, in docking range, etc.) they will never die. This is not really an issue as it has been around for a long time and people will always make mistakes.
There are still plenty of ways to kill mediocre JF pilots (people who use cyno generators that are a bit off the POS shield), just because you are apparently incapable of doing so does not make it impossible. Cloaked HIC / Dictors, RR BS gang ready next door, etc.
If you have the password of the POS the JF is going to you can even bubble him from outside the shield and use your RR BS to bump him out. There are a lot of options.
I'd warrant a guess and say that atleast 75% of kills in EVE are due to pilot error. Get used to it and exploit it.
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Winterblink
Originally by: Bellum Eternus Also horrible game design. Obviously. People may not agree with me, but you can't say I'm not consistent with my opinions.
You have yet to provide any intelligent alternatives beyond removing them from the game. Lets assume that it's impossible to remove anything you want out, how would you change them to satisfy the issues you perceive are there?
Remove WTZ. Problem solved.
...stop making dumb suggestions that you know will never pass. Christ man. :|
Your posts are absolutely horrendous lately and your suggestions are just as bad. Get a grip.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.08.19 10:52:00 -
[34]
Originally by: iP0D Oh man, down bello.
You've become such a little whiner it's getting silly. Yeah, we realise that you have a problem with making effort, but even when things seem to be too difficult you could at least put some thought in it.
A jumpfreighter is one of the easiest targets to gank, especially around bridges. Easily bumped, slow to move, bubbles are wonderful, easy to track around space and ridiculously expensive
Look, we all know that adapting to a changing 0.0 was overly hard on you, but there are plenty of other game niches available. Aside of this EVE really is a multiplayer game, teamwork is king.
Bubbles don't exist in lowsec. Neither do jump bridges. I simply mentioned jump bridges in the OP as yet another item that makes Alliance life super easy from a logistics standpoint.
Jumpfreighters are easily one of the most impossible capitals to kill in lowsec. Like I've said previously, unless the pilot makes a horrible horrible mistake, they're completely invulnerable.
It's *possible* to kill a JF at a deathstar POS, but only if you know when and where it's going to be cynoing in, have a specialized gank fleet assembled and are able to put everything together within the 30 seconds or so warning you have between the cyno going up and the JF arriving. That just doesn't seem that workable in my book. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
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Ghaelsto Kakram
Mindgamers
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Posted - 2009.08.19 10:55:00 -
[35]
Keep on to that rage. Let it eat your inside and finally have it burst out in a gigantic rage quit.
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards Vanguard.
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Posted - 2009.08.19 11:05:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: iP0D Oh man, down bello.
You've become such a little whiner it's getting silly. Yeah, we realise that you have a problem with making effort, but even when things seem to be too difficult you could at least put some thought in it.
A jumpfreighter is one of the easiest targets to gank, especially around bridges. Easily bumped, slow to move, bubbles are wonderful, easy to track around space and ridiculously expensive
Look, we all know that adapting to a changing 0.0 was overly hard on you, but there are plenty of other game niches available. Aside of this EVE really is a multiplayer game, teamwork is king.
Bubbles don't exist in lowsec. Neither do jump bridges. I simply mentioned jump bridges in the OP as yet another item that makes Alliance life super easy from a logistics standpoint.
Jumpfreighters are easily one of the most impossible capitals to kill in lowsec. Like I've said previously, unless the pilot makes a horrible horrible mistake, they're completely invulnerable.
It's *possible* to kill a JF at a deathstar POS, but only if you know when and where it's going to be cynoing in, have a specialized gank fleet assembled and are able to put everything together within the 30 seconds or so warning you have between the cyno going up and the JF arriving. That just doesn't seem that workable in my book.
JF are just as easy to catch as a carrier or dread. I have also seen many go down to a handfull of pirates on low sec gates.
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cBOLTSON
Caldari SCUM. ACADEMY SCUM.
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Posted - 2009.08.19 11:08:00 -
[37]
Edited by: cBOLTSON on 19/08/2009 11:11:13
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Dibsi Dei If you think jump freighters are bad how do you feel about jump bridges?
Jump bridges are horrible.
NO! LOL Jump bridges are very much needed. JF`s have about 1/4 of the cargo space of regular frieghters, that is thier downside.
In my PERSONAL opinion, I do not agree with you.
EDIT: I think you forget that it has 0 weapons. It needs some sort of defence. And besides the idea behind it is that it can escape through dangerous regions.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.08.19 11:16:00 -
[38]
Originally by: cBOLTSON Edited by: cBOLTSON on 19/08/2009 11:11:13
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Dibsi Dei If you think jump freighters are bad how do you feel about jump bridges?
Jump bridges are horrible.
NO! LOL Jump bridges are very much needed. JF`s have about 1/4 of the cargo space of regular frieghters, that is thier downside.
In my PERSONAL opinion, I do not agree with you.
EDIT: I think you forget that it has 0 weapons. It needs some sort of defence. And besides the idea behind it is that it can escape through dangerous regions.
If WTZ and precision cynos were removed, JFs wouldn't be invulnerable like they are now. I'm not saying that their utility isn't needed. I'm saying that other game mechanics make them invulnerable. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
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Mr Reason
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Posted - 2009.08.19 11:19:00 -
[39]
Bellum's right though. All the instant hauling, jump bridges, carriers with big cargo holds they all make it too damn easy to move stuff around meaning that the game world becomes smaller, it becomes easier for an alliance to overextend and that means it's nigh impossible for smaller, unaffiliated entities to carve out their own little part of 0.0
It's too easy, and easy isn't better. Remove the long range/insta hauling and sure the current situation will be impossible to keep up, trying to do so would result is a massively overworked logistics crew but that's the point; instead of trying to keep the current borders and situations (which will be impossible) there'll be a massive reshuffling resulting in smaller entities with shorter reaches. making for more and different alliances, all able to compete and battle for their area of space.
As it is now, BECAUSE of being able to overextend and relocate assets fast over huge distances, you end up with the big, boring power blocks we have. I'm sure none of the current space holders would like those changes but in the end it would be better for the game.
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Ryoji Tanakama
Caldari Firestar Drive Yards
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Posted - 2009.08.19 11:24:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Winterblink
Originally by: Bellum Eternus Also horrible game design. Obviously. People may not agree with me, but you can't say I'm not consistent with my opinions.
You have yet to provide any intelligent alternatives beyond removing them from the game. Lets assume that it's impossible to remove anything you want out, how would you change them to satisfy the issues you perceive are there?
Remove WTZ. Problem solved.
You know you could warp to 0 before it was added to the UI right?
So how does that solve ANYTHING?
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.08.19 11:28:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Mr Reason Bellum's right though. All the instant hauling, jump bridges, carriers with big cargo holds they all make it too damn easy to move stuff around meaning that the game world becomes smaller, it becomes easier for an alliance to overextend and that means it's nigh impossible for smaller, unaffiliated entities to carve out their own little part of 0.0
It's too easy, and easy isn't better. Remove the long range/insta hauling and sure the current situation will be impossible to keep up, trying to do so would result is a massively overworked logistics crew but that's the point; instead of trying to keep the current borders and situations (which will be impossible) there'll be a massive reshuffling resulting in smaller entities with shorter reaches. making for more and different alliances, all able to compete and battle for their area of space.
As it is now, BECAUSE of being able to overextend and relocate assets fast over huge distances, you end up with the big, boring power blocks we have. I'm sure none of the current space holders would like those changes but in the end it would be better for the game.
Oh look, one guy out of 20 gets it! Thanks for the supporting viewpoint. I too think that all of the easy travel/logistics have made this game smaller and made the space alliances can control too large and easily maintained.
Personally I'd like to see the areas groups can dominate reduced quite a bit. And it wouldn't take much. Removal of jump bridges, removal of WTZ. Done. Smaller areas of control means more opportunity for the little guys to carve out their chunk of 0.0.
The farther and deeper into 0.0 you go away from empire, the harder and harder it becomes to supply your outposts and people with their much needed supplies. Proximity to empire now starts to mean something, as does the lower true security of those far away systems.
The game is horribly static in 0.0 specifically due to poor game design like WTZ and jump bridges. Cyno jammers don't help either.
If the undock invulnerability time is 30 seconds, make the time it takes to initialize a cyno jump 45 seconds. Remove the instant cyno ability from all ships with their own jump drives. Remove the perfect invulnerability from Eve. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.08.19 11:29:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Ryoji Tanakama
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Winterblink
Originally by: Bellum Eternus Also horrible game design. Obviously. People may not agree with me, but you can't say I'm not consistent with my opinions.
You have yet to provide any intelligent alternatives beyond removing them from the game. Lets assume that it's impossible to remove anything you want out, how would you change them to satisfy the issues you perceive are there?
Remove WTZ. Problem solved.
You know you could warp to 0 before it was added to the UI right?
So how does that solve ANYTHING?
Instas were broken then, just like WTZ is now. You know that using instas was basically an exploit designed to get around a fundamental game design feature, right? -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
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Din Rideou
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Posted - 2009.08.19 11:33:00 -
[43]
And everyone used them.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.08.19 11:42:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Din Rideou And everyone used them.
Because CCP didn't have the backbone to remove them and not introduce WTZ. Just because instas were in the game didn't make them right from a game design standpoint. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
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The Riddik
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Posted - 2009.08.19 11:42:00 -
[45]
you have to laugh at the idiocy of the OP.
hey op, jumpfreightors are easy as hell to kill, hence the hoard of killmails across the board, and at 4 bill approx cost, plus whatever cargo they carry , it is very lucrative to kill them.
now having said that, you do need a brain, to figure out how to catch them, which you do not.
you fail.
the end.
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Lubomir Penev
Dark Nexxus
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Posted - 2009.08.19 11:43:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Suas JFs are just as invincible as carriers, dreadnaughts and other cyno-capable ships. If their pilot makes no mistakes (cynos in 1k from POS shield, in docking range, etc.) they will never die.
Cyno 1km from the force field can get you as far as 6km from the force field afaik, which if there is any non trusted blue in local can be damn dangerous. -- 081014 : emoragequit, char transfered to a friend, 090317 : back to original owner blog |
Rawr Cristina
Caldari Annihilate. Avarice.
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Posted - 2009.08.19 11:46:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Suas JFs are just as invincible as carriers, dreadnaughts and other cyno-capable ships. If their pilot makes no mistakes (cynos in 1k from POS shield, in docking range, etc.) they will never die. This is not really an issue as it has been around for a long time and people will always make mistakes.
There are still plenty of ways to kill mediocre JF pilots (people who use cyno generators that are a bit off the POS shield), just because you are apparently incapable of doing so does not make it impossible. Cloaked HIC / Dictors, RR BS gang ready next door, etc.
If you have the password of the POS the JF is going to you can even bubble him from outside the shield and use your RR BS to bump him out. There are a lot of options.
^this
- Malyutka (The Virus) - |
Endtimes
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Posted - 2009.08.19 11:57:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Endtimes on 19/08/2009 11:58:20
Originally by: Bellum Eternus Instas were a nuisance then, just like WTZ aren't anymore. You know that using instas was basically a remedy designed by players to get around CCP's fundamental game design flaw/sudden drop of IQ, right?
Fixed that for ya
People always adapt, have more faith. It's just people preferring the status quo and hating change. You have all the ore you need in 0.0 to make your own stuff and start your own trade hubs there + being supplied by smugglers from empire. 0.0 alliances aren't empires as long as they depend on highsec for their supplies. You are being kept down by Da Man!
Begone evil Jump Freighters in highsec/lowsec! Welcome back trade routes through lowsec, the protected trade caravans to nullsec! Let us party in the lowsec trade hubs once more!
I'll even wave at the lowsec pirates returning to profitability
The remedy is so obvious it boggles the mind we keep putting up with the existing crap
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Ryoji Tanakama
Caldari Firestar Drive Yards
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Posted - 2009.08.19 11:59:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus Instas were broken then, just like WTZ is now. You know that using instas was basically an exploit designed to get around a fundamental game design feature, right?
You may consider it an exploit, CCP clearly did not. They could have simply implemented the code that they used to remove the bookmarks in a more permanent fashion or prevented bookmarks from being created at points in space close to large objects (stations, gates), but they added WTZ instead.
The point remains, removing WTZ does nothing to solve your 'problem'.
I'm really sorry you can't always get your easy epeen kills, but other players manage just fine. Frankly a 4 billion ISK with engines manned by a hamster and no ability to fit any defensive modules deserves the protection it has.
And before you say anything about escorts, we all know that you can't defend against ganking regardless of how many ships you have in your gang. Having friends does not protect a JF in any meaningful way.
So what you're asking for is a 4 billion isk sitting target, because you're too lazy to put some effort into killing something worth 16 times your entire BS gang. Lame.
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Ryoji Tanakama
Caldari Firestar Drive Yards
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Posted - 2009.08.19 12:03:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Ryoji Tanakama on 19/08/2009 12:04:22
Originally by: Endtimes
Welcome back trade routes through lowsec, the protected trade caravans to nullsec! Let us party in the lowsec trade hubs once more!
Doesn't work, as soon as someone realises there's an industrial train or freighter passing through their fleet of throw-away-for-insurance-profit geddons turns up, alphas the indys/freighters for lols and profit. There isn't even the guarantee of concordokken to dissuade them.
Until ganking is reballanced to include some risk of loss, there is the necessity for jump-capable haulers.
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Mr Reason
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Posted - 2009.08.19 12:09:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Ryoji Tanakama Edited by: Ryoji Tanakama on 19/08/2009 12:04:22
Originally by: Endtimes
Welcome back trade routes through lowsec, the protected trade caravans to nullsec! Let us party in the lowsec trade hubs once more!
Doesn't work, as soon as someone realises there's an industrial train or freighter passing through their fleet of throw-away-for-insurance-profit geddons turns up, alphas the indys/freighters for lols and profit. There isn't even the guarantee of concordokken to dissuade them.
Until ganking is reballanced to include some risk of loss, there is the necessity for jump-capable haulers.
Why wouldn't that work? All it takes is EFFORT to defend and plan your logistics. It worked before we had carrier and JF's. Here's the thing, people see effort as something nasty, that should be avoided at all times. But effort equates to value and it means that instead of the game being a boring, stagnant farce of a PVP game (it's just a napfest) smaller groups have the ability to exist.
But hey, it takes effort right? we'd rather not thave that. |
Dipluz
Caldari Fraser's Finest
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Posted - 2009.08.19 12:12:00 -
[52]
I understand ur point but u still fail to see the bigger picture of CCP's 0.0 Politics, when it comes to Sov holding and thats exactly what jump frieghters were built for, without em its 100 x harder to fuel just 1 region in 0.0 when it comes to holding sov. and obviously u fail to tackle a jump freighter so |
Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente The Crane Family
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Posted - 2009.08.19 12:29:00 -
[53]
:facepalm: -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? |
No Homo
Gallente Big Heart Industries
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Posted - 2009.08.19 12:33:00 -
[54]
CCP make it easier for me to gank freighters plz i dont have the skills to fight real ships and im not good enough to catch a freighter
oh and waaaaaaahhhh big meanie alliances have it too easy ;_;
Seriously, this is probably the saddest thread in a while. Go talk to nync if you want to know about ganking JF's, that dude is a pro
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.08.19 12:40:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Dipluz I understand ur point but u still fail to see the bigger picture of CCP's 0.0 Politics, when it comes to Sov holding and thats exactly what jump frieghters were built for, without em its 100 x harder to fuel just 1 region in 0.0 when it comes to holding sov. and obviously u fail to tackle a jump freighter so
So hold less space, or get more people to populate and maintain the same amount of space. It's not that difficult. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
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rodensteiner
Amarr The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.08.19 13:03:00 -
[56]
Originally by: No Homo CCP make it easier for me to gank freighters plz i dont have the skills to fight real ships and im not good enough to catch a freighter
oh and waaaaaaahhhh big meanie alliances have it too easy ;_;
Seriously, this is probably the saddest thread in a while. Go talk to nync if you want to know about ganking JF's, that dude is a pro
I concur, this has to be one of the most pathetic whine threads in a LONG while.
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Doggiee
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Posted - 2009.08.19 13:07:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Mr Reason Bellum's right though. All the instant hauling, jump bridges, carriers with big cargo holds they all make it too damn easy to move stuff around meaning that the game world becomes smaller, it becomes easier for an alliance to overextend and that means it's nigh impossible for smaller, unaffiliated entities to carve out their own little part of 0.0
It's too easy, and easy isn't better. Remove the long range/insta hauling and sure the current situation will be impossible to keep up, trying to do so would result is a massively overworked logistics crew but that's the point; instead of trying to keep the current borders and situations (which will be impossible) there'll be a massive reshuffling resulting in smaller entities with shorter reaches. making for more and different alliances, all able to compete and battle for their area of space.
As it is now, BECAUSE of being able to overextend and relocate assets fast over huge distances, you end up with the big, boring power blocks we have. I'm sure none of the current space holders would like those changes but in the end it would be better for the game.
I usualy dont agree with Bellum Eternus ideas, but this one is quite understandable. And the reason of Mr Reason () actualy hits the spot on that. Also - any "insta-hauling" ruins my sweet lil idea of Convoys, as I mentioned here: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1153729
I rly, rly, RLY dont want all the warfare in null/low-sec to come down to POS sieges and entry gatecamping. How are black-ops gangs disrupt supply lines if all happens with cyno-buttons? How the pirates can get a precious loot if its all cynoed straight to high-sec/low-sec station door?
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Masrina Yasmin
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Posted - 2009.08.19 13:08:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Dipluz I understand ur point but u still fail to see the bigger picture of CCP's 0.0 Politics, when it comes to Sov holding and thats exactly what jump frieghters were built for, without em its 100 x harder to fuel just 1 region in 0.0 when it comes to holding sov. and obviously u fail to tackle a jump freighter so
So hold less space, or get more people to populate and maintain the same amount of space. It's not that difficult.
Why dont you have more friends and have more dps to kill JF (and brains). It's not that difficult.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.08.19 13:10:00 -
[59]
Err, what? Jumpfreighters?
Damn, and I thought this threat would be about Dust!!
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WeaponsHot
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Posted - 2009.08.19 13:33:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Gnulpie Err, what? Jumpfreighters?
Damn, and I thought this threat would be about Dust!!
Of course all have been referring DUST...
But how u guessed that invencible Jumpfreighters would be used to transport DUSTimites to conquer worlds by BANG-BANG other DUSTimites?
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