Originally by: Sheriff Jones

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Hmm, i could swear i've seen jump freighter kill mails

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: Sheriff Jones

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Hmm, i could swear i've seen jump freighter kill mails

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You're confusing 'possible' with 'common'.

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Originally by: Sheriff Jones

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: Sheriff Jones

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Hmm, i could swear i've seen jump freighter kill mails

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You're confusing 'possible' with 'common'.

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Well, you're changing "near impossible" to "possible"

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Originally by: Shun Makoto

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Do you realize how easy it is to kill a Jump Freighter?

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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It will be able to use cynos to jump directly to heavily defended POSes, and with warp to zero it can escape to high sec space without worrying about being attacked!

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Originally by: Johnathan Roark

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by reading your sarcasm, i've came to the conclusion your using the wrong tactics. They are only hard to kill because they are expensive ships flown by experienced players (normally). Also, your point about cyno jammers does not make any since, they nor any other capital can cyno into cyno jammed systems.

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Originally by: Dibsi Dei

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If you think jump freighters are bad how do you feel about jump bridges?

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Originally by: Major Reach

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Lol, just lol.

Bellum gets introduced to environment with lots of jump freighters.
Bellum writes post about jump freighters. :D

It's a shame though, people who manage to scratch the isk needed for a jump freighter aren't gonna be the type to lose one with all the securities to protect it. Maybe I'll kill one... someday.

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Originally by: fivetide humidyear

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you need to look into how nync was killing jump freighters. it's totally possible.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: Dibsi Dei

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If you think jump freighters are bad how do you feel about jump bridges?

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Jump bridges are horrible.

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Originally by: Dibsi Dei

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: Dibsi Dei

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If you think jump freighters are bad how do you feel about jump bridges?

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Jump bridges are horrible.

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All right, what about covops + interdiction nullifier t3 cruisers?

And safespotted or docking range command ships / command t3 cruisers that give bonuses to the whole system without being ever having to be pvp or any risk.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Also horrible game design. Obviously. People may not agree with me, but you can't say I'm not consistent with my opinions.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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<Junior Game Designer> Well, it's a capital ship, exactly like a freighter, but with slightly less capacity, but here's the fun part- it's nearly invulnerable! It will be able to use cynos to jump directly to heavily defended POSes, and with warp to zero it can escape to high sec space without worrying about being attacked!

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Originally by: Dibsi Dei

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Originally by: fivetide humidyear

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you need to look into how nync was killing jump freighters. it's totally possible.

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I'm pretty sure jump freighters can cyno into station docking range though. How to deal with them?

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Originally by: Winterblink

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Also horrible game design. Obviously. People may not agree with me, but you can't say I'm not consistent with my opinions.

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You have yet to provide any intelligent alternatives beyond removing them from the game. Lets assume that it's impossible to remove anything you want out, how would you change them to satisfy the issues you perceive are there?

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Originally by: Winterblink

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Also horrible game design. Obviously. People may not agree with me, but you can't say I'm not consistent with my opinions.

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You have yet to provide any intelligent alternatives beyond removing them from the game. Lets assume that it's impossible to remove anything you want out, how would you change them to satisfy the issues you perceive are there?

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: Winterblink

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Also horrible game design. Obviously. People may not agree with me, but you can't say I'm not consistent with my opinions.

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You have yet to provide any intelligent alternatives beyond removing them from the game. Lets assume that it's impossible to remove anything you want out, how would you change them to satisfy the issues you perceive are there?

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Remove WTZ. Problem solved.

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Originally by: iP0D

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Oh man, down bello.

You've become such a little whiner it's getting silly. Yeah, we realise that you have a problem with making effort, but even when things seem to be too difficult you could at least put some thought in it.

A jumpfreighter is one of the easiest targets to gank, especially around bridges. Easily bumped, slow to move, bubbles are wonderful, easy to track around space and ridiculously expensive

Look, we all know that adapting to a changing 0.0 was overly hard on you, but there are plenty of other game niches available. Aside of this EVE really is a multiplayer game, teamwork is king.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: iP0D

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Oh man, down bello.

You've become such a little whiner it's getting silly. Yeah, we realise that you have a problem with making effort, but even when things seem to be too difficult you could at least put some thought in it.

A jumpfreighter is one of the easiest targets to gank, especially around bridges. Easily bumped, slow to move, bubbles are wonderful, easy to track around space and ridiculously expensive

Look, we all know that adapting to a changing 0.0 was overly hard on you, but there are plenty of other game niches available. Aside of this EVE really is a multiplayer game, teamwork is king.

---

Bubbles don't exist in lowsec. Neither do jump bridges. I simply mentioned jump bridges in the OP as yet another item that makes Alliance life super easy from a logistics standpoint.

Jumpfreighters are easily one of the most impossible capitals to kill in lowsec. Like I've said previously, unless the pilot makes a horrible horrible mistake, they're completely invulnerable.

It's *possible* to kill a JF at a deathstar POS, but only if you know when and where it's going to be cynoing in, have a specialized gank fleet assembled and are able to put everything together within the 30 seconds or so warning you have between the cyno going up and the JF arriving. That just doesn't seem that workable in my book.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: Dibsi Dei

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If you think jump freighters are bad how do you feel about jump bridges?

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Jump bridges are horrible.

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Originally by: cBOLTSON

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Edited by: cBOLTSON on 19/08/2009 11:11:13

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: Dibsi Dei

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If you think jump freighters are bad how do you feel about jump bridges?

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Jump bridges are horrible.

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NO!
LOL
Jump bridges are very much needed.
JF`s have about 1/4 of the cargo space of regular frieghters, that is thier downside.

In my PERSONAL opinion, I do not agree with you.

EDIT: I think you forget that it has 0 weapons. It needs some sort of defence. And besides the idea behind it is that it can escape through dangerous regions.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: Winterblink

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Also horrible game design. Obviously. People may not agree with me, but you can't say I'm not consistent with my opinions.

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You have yet to provide any intelligent alternatives beyond removing them from the game. Lets assume that it's impossible to remove anything you want out, how would you change them to satisfy the issues you perceive are there?

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Remove WTZ. Problem solved.

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Originally by: Mr Reason

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Bellum's right though. All the instant hauling, jump bridges, carriers with big cargo holds they all make it too damn easy to move stuff around meaning that the game world becomes smaller, it becomes easier for an alliance to overextend and that means it's nigh impossible for smaller, unaffiliated entities to carve out their own little part of 0.0

It's too easy, and easy isn't better. Remove the long range/insta hauling and sure the current situation will be impossible to keep up, trying to do so would result is a massively overworked logistics crew but that's the point; instead of trying to keep the current borders and situations (which will be impossible) there'll be a massive reshuffling resulting in smaller entities with shorter reaches. making for more and different alliances, all able to compete and battle for their area of space.

As it is now, BECAUSE of being able to overextend and relocate assets fast over huge distances, you end up with the big, boring power blocks we have. I'm sure none of the current space holders would like those changes but in the end it would be better for the game.

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Originally by: Ryoji Tanakama

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: Winterblink

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Also horrible game design. Obviously. People may not agree with me, but you can't say I'm not consistent with my opinions.

---

You have yet to provide any intelligent alternatives beyond removing them from the game. Lets assume that it's impossible to remove anything you want out, how would you change them to satisfy the issues you perceive are there?

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Remove WTZ. Problem solved.

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You know you could warp to 0 before it was added to the UI right?

So how does that solve ANYTHING?

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Originally by: Din Rideou

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And everyone used them.

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Originally by: Suas

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JFs are just as invincible as carriers, dreadnaughts and other cyno-capable ships. If their pilot makes no mistakes (cynos in 1k from POS shield, in docking range, etc.) they will never die.

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Originally by: Suas

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JFs are just as invincible as carriers, dreadnaughts and other cyno-capable ships. If their pilot makes no mistakes (cynos in 1k from POS shield, in docking range, etc.) they will never die. This is not really an issue as it has been around for a long time and people will always make mistakes.

There are still plenty of ways to kill mediocre JF pilots (people who use cyno generators that are a bit off the POS shield), just because you are apparently incapable of doing so does not make it impossible. Cloaked HIC / Dictors, RR BS gang ready next door, etc.

If you have the password of the POS the JF is going to you can even bubble him from outside the shield and use your RR BS to bump him out. There are a lot of options.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Instas were a nuisance then, just like WTZ aren't anymore. You know that using instas was basically a remedy designed by players to get around CCP's fundamental game design flaw/sudden drop of IQ, right?

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Instas were broken then, just like WTZ is now. You know that using instas was basically an exploit designed to get around a fundamental game design feature, right?

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Originally by: Endtimes

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Welcome back trade routes through lowsec, the protected trade caravans to nullsec! Let us party in the lowsec trade hubs once more!

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Originally by: Ryoji Tanakama

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Edited by: Ryoji Tanakama on 19/08/2009 12:04:22

Originally by: Endtimes

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Welcome back trade routes through lowsec, the protected trade caravans to nullsec! Let us party in the lowsec trade hubs once more!

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Doesn't work, as soon as someone realises there's an industrial train or freighter passing through their fleet of throw-away-for-insurance-profit geddons turns up, alphas the indys/freighters for lols and profit. There isn't even the guarantee of concordokken to dissuade them.

Until ganking is reballanced to include some risk of loss, there is the necessity for jump-capable haulers.

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Originally by: Dipluz

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I understand ur point but u still fail to see the bigger picture of CCP's 0.0 Politics, when it comes to Sov holding and thats exactly what jump frieghters were built for, without em its 100 x harder to fuel just 1 region in 0.0 when it comes to holding sov. and obviously u fail to tackle a jump freighter so

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Originally by: No Homo

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CCP make it easier for me to gank freighters plz i dont have the skills to fight real ships and im not good enough to catch a freighter

oh and waaaaaaahhhh big meanie alliances have it too easy ;_;

Seriously, this is probably the saddest thread in a while. Go talk to nync if you want to know about ganking JF's, that dude is a pro

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Originally by: Mr Reason

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Bellum's right though. All the instant hauling, jump bridges, carriers with big cargo holds they all make it too damn easy to move stuff around meaning that the game world becomes smaller, it becomes easier for an alliance to overextend and that means it's nigh impossible for smaller, unaffiliated entities to carve out their own little part of 0.0

It's too easy, and easy isn't better. Remove the long range/insta hauling and sure the current situation will be impossible to keep up, trying to do so would result is a massively overworked logistics crew but that's the point; instead of trying to keep the current borders and situations (which will be impossible) there'll be a massive reshuffling resulting in smaller entities with shorter reaches. making for more and different alliances, all able to compete and battle for their area of space.

As it is now, BECAUSE of being able to overextend and relocate assets fast over huge distances, you end up with the big, boring power blocks we have. I'm sure none of the current space holders would like those changes but in the end it would be better for the game.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: Dipluz

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I understand ur point but u still fail to see the bigger picture of CCP's 0.0 Politics, when it comes to Sov holding and thats exactly what jump frieghters were built for, without em its 100 x harder to fuel just 1 region in 0.0 when it comes to holding sov. and obviously u fail to tackle a jump freighter so

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So hold less space, or get more people to populate and maintain the same amount of space. It's not that difficult.

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Originally by: Gnulpie

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Err, what? Jumpfreighters?

Damn, and I thought this threat would be about Dust!!

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Originally by: Honest Nonlabor

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JF's die all the damn time.
They are not hard to kill, they melt to be honest. Just have to be fast and smart to catch them.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: Mr Reason

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Bellum's right though. All the instant hauling, jump bridges, carriers with big cargo holds they all make it too damn easy to move stuff around meaning that the game world becomes smaller, it becomes easier for an alliance to overextend and that means it's nigh impossible for smaller, unaffiliated entities to carve out their own little part of 0.0

It's too easy, and easy isn't better. Remove the long range/insta hauling and sure the current situation will be impossible to keep up, trying to do so would result is a massively overworked logistics crew but that's the point; instead of trying to keep the current borders and situations (which will be impossible) there'll be a massive reshuffling resulting in smaller entities with shorter reaches. making for more and different alliances, all able to compete and battle for their area of space.

As it is now, BECAUSE of being able to overextend and relocate assets fast over huge distances, you end up with the big, boring power blocks we have. I'm sure none of the current space holders would like those changes but in the end it would be better for the game.

---

..An almost equivalent post...

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Originally by: Astria Tiphareth

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All valid points in a way, but addressing them means you change the game, dramatically. It no longer becomes the game people play today. That's an enormous risk to take and would take a heck of a lot of planning to get even remotely right. Hopefully the new sov changes will be a step in the right direction.

I can see where you're coming from, even if the OP really was a whine and you focus way too much on WTZ. I've long held the view that practically instant travel makes for a really difficult PvP environment - there's no logistics train to attack, no supply lines, and instant reinforcements almost anywhere (obviously these are generalisations). Unfortunately, CCP seem to disagree, because they gave carriers and others the ability to jump from A to B pretty quickly as their primary/only method of travel.

In features and ideas, one of the big issues discussions about how to improve 0.0 always seemed to hit was that major powers can mount large offensives/defenses rapidly and without (as much) need to deal with supplies, travel time, time to reinforce a battle, and so on.

Changing capital travel would have huge repercussions for the game. On the plus side, space would be bigger, moving goods from empire to 0.0 would have more windows of opportunity to attack, and mounting a multi-system offensive would actually require more strategy & preparation, because reinforcements aren't a cyno away. I don't really need to list the downsides, because a small legion of players used to the present sitation will for me

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Originally by: IshiShemi

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Actualy - how much dust can you fit in a JF?

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Originally by: Ard UnjiiGo

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Originally by: Honest Nonlabor

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JF's die all the damn time.
They are not hard to kill, they melt to be honest. Just have to be fast and smart to catch them.

---

Neo Spartans pushing 29k total kills
1 JF Kill

No Trademark pushing 19k total kills
2 JF Kills

It's happening all the time all right.

2 PvP corps with nearly 50k combined ship kills and only 3 total JF kills telling Bellum to l2p.


Any rate, bottom line is that when logistics for 0.0 can bypass nearly all risk in low-sec it's bad for the game.

Flame on you hyperbolic PvPers and 0.0 drones.

---

Quote:

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Anyway, very few people want the current travel situation to change because it'll make their life a little more difficult. Who cares if it's better for the game in the long run.

I think it was Greyscale that brought up nerfing carriers and he was flamed to hell and back? Quite frankly he was right, but people didn't want to have to put more effort into the game.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: Sheriff Jones

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: Sheriff Jones

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Hmm, i could swear i've seen jump freighter kill mails

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You're confusing 'possible' with 'common'.

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Well, you're changing "near impossible" to "possible"

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Exactly. JFs should be possible to kill, not nearly impossible to kill. IMO they should be removed from the game completely, as there isn't any way to fix the flaws in the game design without making other ships (freighters) redundant.

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Originally by: Verx Interis

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Considering the number of ambushed JF's by many alliances during various evac's, I don't think they're invulnerable.

5 dreads can tank the deathstar and melt the JF before it makes it back into the bubble...

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Originally by: Cyprus Black

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Ever try to go through 0.0 in a standard freighter? Yeah, epic lulz and fail.

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Quote:

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it was back when it was hard for alliances to control more then a region cause it was harder to keep a logistics chain going. imagine that, ppl actually had to do freighter ops and make big gangs to escort the freighters to their destination..

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Originally by: ArmyOfMe

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Originally by: Cyprus Black

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Ever try to go through 0.0 in a standard freighter? Yeah, epic lulz and fail.

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yes, have you??
it was back when it was hard for alliances to control more then a region cause it was harder to keep a logistics chain going. imagine that, ppl actually had to do freighter ops and make big gangs to escort the freighters to their destination..

this game has become way to easy and pretty risk free for most part.
jump freighters, rorqs etc have no real risk of dying unless the pilot is a idiot, and its also made logistics way to easy for alliances.

those of you complaining about the op just dont get the fact that this game has become pretty risk free for most big alliances cause of stuff like jump freighters

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Originally by: Mr Reason

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Bellum's right though. All the instant hauling, jump bridges, carriers with big cargo holds they all make it too damn easy to move stuff around meaning that the game world becomes smaller, it becomes easier for an alliance to overextend and that means it's nigh impossible for smaller, unaffiliated entities to carve out their own little part of 0.0

It's too easy, and easy isn't better. Remove the long range/insta hauling and sure the current situation will be impossible to keep up, trying to do so would result is a massively overworked logistics crew but that's the point; instead of trying to keep the current borders and situations (which will be impossible) there'll be a massive reshuffling resulting in smaller entities with shorter reaches. making for more and different alliances, all able to compete and battle for their area of space.

As it is now, BECAUSE of being able to overextend and relocate assets fast over huge distances, you end up with the big, boring power blocks we have. I'm sure none of the current space holders would like those changes but in the end it would be better for the game.

---

Originally by: Rawr Cristina

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Originally by: IshiShemi

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Actualy - how much dust can you fit in a JF?

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1mil to whoever works this out

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: Johnathan Roark

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by reading your sarcasm, i've came to the conclusion your using the wrong tactics. They are only hard to kill because they are expensive ships flown by experienced players (normally). Also, your point about cyno jammers does not make any since, they nor any other capital can cyno into cyno jammed systems.

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How can someone be using the wrong tactics when the ships are literally invulnerable, save suicide ganking them in highsec? Unless someone makes a horrible mistake, you're never going to get one, since they're always within dock range or able to cyno out without being locked.

Crappy game mechanics are fail.

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Originally by: Astria Tiphareth

---

All valid points in a way, but addressing them means you change the game, dramatically. It no longer becomes the game people play today. That's an enormous risk to take and would take a heck of a lot of planning to get even remotely right. Hopefully the new sov changes will be a step in the right direction.

I can see where you're coming from, even if the OP really was a whine and you focus way too much on WTZ. I've long held the view that practically instant travel makes for a really difficult PvP environment - there's no logistics train to attack, no supply lines, and instant reinforcements almost anywhere (obviously these are generalisations). Unfortunately, CCP seem to disagree, because they gave carriers and others the ability to jump from A to B pretty quickly as their primary/only method of travel.

In features and ideas, one of the big issues discussions about how to improve 0.0 always seemed to hit was that major powers can mount large offensives/defences rapidly and without (as much) need to deal with supplies, travel time, time to reinforce a battle, and so on.

Changing capital travel would have huge repercussions for the game. On the plus side, space would be bigger, moving goods from empire to 0.0 would have more windows of opportunity to attack, and mounting a multi-system offensive would actually require more strategy & preparation, because reinforcements aren't a cyno away. I don't really need to list the downsides, because a small legion of players used to the present sitation will for me

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Originally by: Cyprus Black

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Of all things to complain about, you've picked quite possibly the least important thing. Seriously, nobody gives a crap about jump freighters jumping through high/low/null sec space.

The ships are expensive as hell and are necessary to keep alliance resupplied. Ever try to go through 0.0 in a standard freighter? Yeah, epic lulz and fail.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Senseless Whine

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Originally by: F'nog

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Originally by: Stareatthesun

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No no no ... Polaris is where CCP keeps the death star that will destroy eve when the servers shut down.

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Thankfully I've got Interceptors trained to V. S

Originally by: Rotnac

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as dangerous as 0.0

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Originally by: Rotnac

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You want to shrink the 0.0 powerblocks? Give us the ability to support more than 2-3 average alliance members per system. We need lots of space because you can't have more than a few people ratting per system before the revenue starts dropping like crazy. Once you can get a bunch of people in one system like the empire missions runners, and big alliances won't need lots of space.

As someone who now does some alliance-level logistics, the current setup involves bringing untold numbers of JF loads per week into 0.0. Nerfing JFs (or removing them) will destroy big alliances' ability to have lots of space, which crams lots of people into not much space, which means no one earns isk, and so we all quit.

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Originally by: Professor Dumbledore

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Jump freighters are designed for high sec -> 0.0 transporting they work fine and are plenty vulnerable. We kill them on jump beacons with dreads all the time.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: iP0D

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Oh man, down bello.

You've become such a little whiner it's getting silly. Yeah, we realise that you have a problem with making effort, but even when things seem to be too difficult you could at least put some thought in it.

A jumpfreighter is one of the easiest targets to gank, especially around bridges. Easily bumped, slow to move, bubbles are wonderful, easy to track around space and ridiculously expensive

Look, we all know that adapting to a changing 0.0 was overly hard on you, but there are plenty of other game niches available. Aside of this EVE really is a multiplayer game, teamwork is king.

---

Bubbles don't exist in lowsec. Neither do jump bridges. I simply mentioned jump bridges in the OP as yet another item that makes Alliance life super easy from a logistics standpoint.

Jumpfreighters are easily one of the most impossible capitals to kill in lowsec. Like I've said previously, unless the pilot makes a horrible horrible mistake, they're completely invulnerable.

It's *possible* to kill a JF at a deathstar POS, but only if you know when and where it's going to be cynoing in, have a specialized gank fleet assembled and are able to put everything together within the 30 seconds or so warning you have between the cyno going up and the JF arriving. That just doesn't seem that workable in my book.

---

Originally by: Cyprus Black

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Of all things to complain about, you've picked quite possibly the least important thing. Seriously, nobody gives a crap about jump freighters jumping through high/low/null sec space.

The ships are expensive as hell and are necessary to keep alliance resupplied. Ever try to go through 0.0 in a standard freighter? Yeah, epic lulz and fail.

---

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

---

Let's play a little game for a second. Pretend you're a lead game designer and someone comes to you with a new idea to be added to Eve:

<Junior Game Designer> Hi boss, I have this great idea for a new type of ship.

<You> Oh yeah, what is it?

<Junior Game Designer> Well, it's a capital ship, exactly like a freighter, but with slightly less capacity, but here's the fun part- it's nearly invulnerable! It will be able to use cynos to jump directly to heavily defended POSes, and with warp to zero it can escape to high sec space without worrying about being attacked!

<You> Hmm. Sounds pretty awesome, but what about getting back into lowsec/0.0? Won't it have to jump into vulnerable space and be caught away from the gate? I mean, it could always logoffski like the Russians do it, but that isn't 100% reliable now is it?

<Junior Game Designer> Well, I've thought that through as well- the jump freighters will be able to cyno DIRECTLY OUT OF HIGHSEC SPACE. How cool will that be?!

<You> Now you're talkin! Wow, great job! Once we add these into the game I'm certainly getting one. Using a regular freighter is so scary, what with actually being able to be locked and all. Oooohhhh, and with jump bridges and cyno jammers, it'll be super safe in 0.0! I can't wait!

Sarcasm aside, coupled with WTZ, POSes, jump bridges and cyno jammers jump freighters provide easy logistics with near 100% immunity to being destroyed. WTF? I don't see the risk/reward here.

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Originally by: LittleTerror

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Yeah lets go back to hardly anyone living in 0.0 due to logistics being outrageously hard, time consuming and boring...

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Originally by: LittleTerror

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Yeah lets go back to hardly anyone living in 0.0 due to logistics being outrageously hard, time consuming and boring...

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Originally by: ArmyOfMe

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Originally by: LittleTerror

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Yeah lets go back to hardly anyone living in 0.0 due to logistics being outrageously hard, time consuming and boring...

---

you'r talking about back when alliances had to do some work to keep their space and logistics going? if so then yes please.

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Originally by: Rotnac

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Originally by: ArmyOfMe

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Originally by: LittleTerror

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Yeah lets go back to hardly anyone living in 0.0 due to logistics being outrageously hard, time consuming and boring...

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you'r talking about back when alliances had to do some work to keep their space and logistics going? if so then yes please.

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**** it, let's just get rid of 0.0 while we're at it. Just a buncha lazy ***gots, amirite?

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Originally by: Suas

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JFs are just as invincible as carriers, dreadnaughts and other cyno-capable ships...

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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coupled with WTZ, POSes, jump bridges and cyno jammers jump freighters provide easy logistics with near 100% immunity to being destroyed. WTF?

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Exactly. JFs should be possible to kill, not nearly impossible to kill. IMO they should be removed from the game completely, as there isn't any way to fix the flaws in the game design without making other ships (freighters) redundant.

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Originally by: Jessie Jacobs

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OP fails.

Cry Havoc Killboard ---> Stats ---> Jump Freighters

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Originally by: Omarvelous

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They are MORE difficult than carriers/dreads - because they can go into high sec, they don't have to go cyno to cyno.

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Originally by: Omarvelous

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To people claiming you can get bumped off a station - the easy solution is getting the cyno pilot to use the tactical display - go out to the 5km circle and make sure you're still within 0km of the station. Now you have 0 risk in bumping off a station.

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Originally by: Omarvelous

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Logistics should be made harder in this game - being in the outer fringes of the game should be more difficult (with the reward that they're better quality systems).
Easy Risk-free logistics = static end game.

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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From your KB:
Jump Freighter1315

I guess "all the time" = 2 per month? Or less (cant remember when they were introduced). Thats not nearly enough.

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Originally by: Terranid Meester

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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From your KB:
Jump Freighter1315

I guess "all the time" = 2 per month? Or less (cant remember when they were introduced). Thats not nearly enough.

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Strategic Cruisers are also unbalanced as the Goons havn't killed 20 of them yet.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Quite frankly, these days any sort of negative post is branded a 'whine'. Particularly when it's not a popular idea and especially when the point of the post directly makes someone's playing more difficult if a change resulted from the post.

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Originally by: The AEther

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Once you make that first jump out of high sec, remainder of jumps you have to make beacon to beacon. JF has shorter jump ranges than carriers and where carrier can make just 1 jump JFs often have to make 2.

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Originally by: The AEther

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Once you jump to station you cannot dock for 30 seconds because of session change. In this time if a party is waiting for you on the other end they can bump you out of that 0m point with their ships. Station docking perimeters also come in different sizes - some are quite shallow making bumping much easier.

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Originally by: The AEther

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One of the reasons that new/small alliances have trouble getting started in 0.0 is precisely because logistics is very risky such that without heavy back-up and a see of friends/blues your small alliance just won't be able to run logistics to support your infrastructure.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Sarcasm aside, coupled with WTZ, POSes, jump bridges and cyno jammers jump freighters provide easy logistics with near 100% immunity to being destroyed. WTF? I don't see the risk/reward here.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: Dibsi Dei

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If you think jump freighters are bad how do you feel about jump bridges?

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Jump bridges are horrible.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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If WTZ and precision cynos were removed, JFs wouldn't be invulnerable like they are now. I'm not saying that their utility isn't needed. I'm saying that other game mechanics make them invulnerable.

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No small alliances can't get a foothold because the larger powerblocks will annihilate anything near them. You can even the playing field with tougher logistics. Easier logistics means the bigger alliances can make use of them that much easier.

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Originally by: Doggiee

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Edited by: Doggiee on 21/08/2009 10:04:13
Null-sec nerd is terrified to ask for help with escort because he has no friends he can trust or even talk to, so he prefers to run his 10 accounts alone. He then sees an idea that could put his selfish existance to danger, so pops-out with "oh-Im-so-tough" pose and spits venom instead of reasonable arguments

Orrr... he just can't accept that someone could actaly do something bad, boo hoo, to his precious itemsss, oh noes, but cannot accept the fact that he maybe would have to share the profit from hauling with other players involved in the convoy, boo!

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Originally by: Butter Dog

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but heres the thing

people are stupid and lazy - jump freighters can use gates too, and unbelievably, they do

you get kills when people get lazy and/or stupid, just like any other kill in eve

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Exactly. JFs should be possible to kill, not nearly impossible to kill. IMO they should be removed from the game completely, as there isn't any way to fix the flaws in the game design without making other ships (freighters) redundant.

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Originally by: Rockhead Rumple

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Edited by: Rockhead Rumple on 21/08/2009 11:18:41
No.

Well yes. But you're not funny, nor clever.

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Originally by: chromez0r

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Exactly. JFs should be possible to kill, not nearly impossible to kill. IMO they should be removed from the game completely, as there isn't any way to fix the flaws in the game design without making other ships (freighters) redundant.

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im⋅pos⋅si⋅ble - [im-pos-uh-buhl]
ûadjective
1. not possible; unable to be, exist, happen, etc.
2. unable to be done, performed, effected, etc.: an impossible assignment.
3. incapable of being true, as a rumor.
4. not to be done, endured, etc., with any degree of reason or propriety: an impossible situation.
5. utterly impracticable: an impossible plan.
6. hopelessly unsuitable, difficult, or objectionable.


pos⋅si⋅ble - [pos-uh-buhl]
ûadjective
1. that may or can be, exist, happen, be done, be used, etc.: a disease with no possible cure.
2. that may be true or may be the case, as something concerning which one has no knowledge to the contrary: It is possible that he has already gone.


so ah if something is "nearly" impossible, doesn't that make it possible?

*scratchs head*

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Let's play a little game for a second. Pretend you're a lead game designer and someone comes to you with a new idea to be added to Eve:

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Let's play a little game for a second. Pretend you're a lead game designer and someone comes to you with a new idea to be added to Eve:

<Junior Game Designer> Hi boss, I have this great idea for a new type of ship.

<You> Oh yeah, what is it?

<Junior Game Designer> Well, it's a capital ship, exactly like a freighter, but with slightly less capacity, but here's the fun part- it's nearly invulnerable! It will be able to use cynos to jump directly to heavily defended POSes, and with warp to zero it can escape to high sec space without worrying about being attacked!

<You> Hmm. Sounds pretty awesome, but what about getting back into lowsec/0.0? Won't it have to jump into vulnerable space and be caught away from the gate? I mean, it could always logoffski like the Russians do it, but that isn't 100% reliable now is it?

<Junior Game Designer> Well, I've thought that through as well- the jump freighters will be able to cyno DIRECTLY OUT OF HIGHSEC SPACE. How cool will that be?!

<You> Now you're talkin! Wow, great job! Once we add these into the game I'm certainly getting one. Using a regular freighter is so scary, what with actually being able to be locked and all. Oooohhhh, and with jump bridges and cyno jammers, it'll be super safe in 0.0! I can't wait!

Sarcasm aside, coupled with WTZ, POSes, jump bridges and cyno jammers jump freighters provide easy logistics with near 100% immunity to being destroyed. WTF? I don't see the risk/reward here.

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Originally by: fivetide humidyear

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...and as for stations sometimes people hit the little sticky out bit and fly 200km off station before the jump timer is up...

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Originally by: SiJira

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i made these predictions before the ships came out

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Originally by: Rotnac

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I'd like to know how many of the people *****ing in here about JFs have ever actually had to help with logistics for a large 0.0 entity? Or have done anything but suck at lowsec piracy?

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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WTF? I don't see the risk/reward here.

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Originally by: Ahz

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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WTF? I don't see the risk/reward here.

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You don't eh?

3rd most expensive ship class in-game behind Titans and Mother ships, they do only one thing and they're completely defenseless on their own. That's on the risk side.

What's the right level of reward? They're hard as heck to catch if a supporting gang is taking care of it. That seems fair.

But it's still not impossible to catch them. Take a small gang and some portable bubbles with you and get creative.

I've also got to wonder how big a problem this is. They've been in game for almost a year now and I've only run into one or two of them. They're pretty rare where I am.

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Originally by: Rotnac

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I'd like to know how many of the people *****ing in here about JFs have ever actually had to help with logistics for a large 0.0 entity? Or have done anything but suck at lowsec piracy?

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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I've been in systems where I see at least one or two per hour cyno in and jump into highsec with complete impunity. I run into dozens every day. It's a big problem, just not to you.

To everyone else who seems to think that Eve is confined to 0.0: bubbles aren't always an option. And eve if they are, how do bubbles change the problem of being able to dock instantly, or land on a gate and jump into highsec to safety? Bubbles don't change that.

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Originally by: Ahz

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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WTF? I don't see the risk/reward here.

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You don't eh?

3rd most expensive ship class in-game behind Titans and Mother ships, they do only one thing and they're completely defenseless on their own. That's on the risk side.

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Originally by: Rotnac

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I'd like to know how many of the people *****ing in here about JFs have ever actually had to help with logistics for a large 0.0 entity? Or have done anything but suck at lowsec piracy?

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Originally by: ArmyOfMe

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Originally by: Rotnac

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I'd like to know how many of the people *****ing in here about JFs have ever actually had to help with logistics for a large 0.0 entity? Or have done anything but suck at lowsec piracy?

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oh look at bitter goons and nc's when they start thinking about having to put in some work to keep their logistics chains going

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Originally by: Veldya

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Originally by: ArmyOfMe

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Originally by: Rotnac

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I'd like to know how many of the people *****ing in here about JFs have ever actually had to help with logistics for a large 0.0 entity? Or have done anything but suck at lowsec piracy?

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oh look at bitter goons and nc's when they start thinking about having to put in some work to keep their logistics chains going

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lol show me on the doll where the 4S people touched you.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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I run into dozens every day...

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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... how do bubbles change the problem of being able to dock instantly...

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Originally by: Feilamya

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You got the story all wrong. This is what happened:

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Originally by: Dimitrios Ypsilanti

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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I run into dozens every day...

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Dozens? That's a lot of extremely high-value targets!

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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... how do bubbles change the problem of being able to dock instantly...

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If they always jump directly from high sec into docking range then you probably can't catch them.

If they have to use a jump bridge or a gate at some point then you can.

With dozens of targets you'll get lucky eventually.

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Originally by: BirdieGirl

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We have killed a few (some 2-3 a day) and have lost a fair share too. I would not say they are "invulnerable"

Here

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Originally by: Rotnac

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Although, as JFs are extremely expensive, they are most likely flown with great care and scouting. This would make the ships show up less often despite being fairly frequently used.

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Originally by: Mr Reason

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Bellum's right though. All the instant hauling, jump bridges, carriers with big cargo holds they all make it too damn easy to move stuff around meaning that the game world becomes smaller, it becomes easier for an alliance to overextend and that means it's nigh impossible for smaller, unaffiliated entities to carve out their own little part of 0.0

It's too easy, and easy isn't better. Remove the long range/insta hauling and sure the current situation will be impossible to keep up, trying to do so would result is a massively overworked logistics crew but that's the point; instead of trying to keep the current borders and situations (which will be impossible) there'll be a massive reshuffling resulting in smaller entities with shorter reaches. making for more and different alliances, all able to compete and battle for their area of space.

As it is now, BECAUSE of being able to overextend and relocate assets fast over huge distances, you end up with the big, boring power blocks we have. I'm sure none of the current space holders would like those changes but in the end it would be better for the game.

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Originally by: Kessiaan

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JF would have to be removed entirely to give Bellum what he wants.

I fly a JF, on an alt of course. I doubt Bellum flies a JF at all or he'd somewhat understand what he's complaining about.

These ships cost upwards of 4.5B isk. They usually carry at least that much again in cargo. Nobody is going to undock 9B ISK in a defenseless ship unless they're certain they won't get caught. It's not like the old motherships that were almost invulnerable but you could you still bait and do bumping tricks, JFs won't fight period, because they can't.

JFs are invulnerable in lowsec unless the pilot is an idiot. You cyno to a station, warp to the gate, jump, wave goodbye in local. This is the only part of the equation Bellum sees - JFs must be flown with great care in nullsec since POS jump beacons land you 5kms away from the shields and that gives the world a chance to jump you. JBs are better but they can be bubbles and you can get blobbed by BS.

Anyway, see the bolded part above. If you take away these ship's relative invulnerability in lowsec it will change nothing - people will cyno into empty dead-end systems and then do even lamer tricks with a regular freighter (basically, the web trick + fake jump logoffski). You'll still never catch them unless the pilot is stupid and all it will do is inconvenience everyone.

If you want a jump capable hauler that can't do any cheap lowsec tricks, the risk has to be brought down substantially. It's the same reasoning behind the empire suicide gank nerfs - the aggressor risks virtually nothing except a little time after insurance. If all the risk is on one party CCP has shown plenty of times they'll even it up, either by making the activity riskier or just so hard it's nearly impossible to do without a lot of prior planning.

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Vaerah, please come up with arguements instead of poorly attempted sarcasm. If you're too ****ing poor for a jump freighter it may be an indication that you don't understand the game mechanics well enough to be able to participate in this discussion anyway.

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You also missed the point, DUE to all these long/instant hauling options there ARE these large 0.0 entities, which makes it boring

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That's the point. You have it too easy to do logistics. If it was more difficult your crappy internet empire wouldn't be so big. Smaller empires = more room for other smaller empires in 0.0.

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OP should use a time machine to go back to good'ol 2004.

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Cost never justifies function/game design/balance

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If that were the case then my T3 cruiser should be 100x more effective than it is

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Originally by: viuva

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Jump freighters and jump bridges , for me were the worst things that ccp could bring to eve .

You dont need any op for logistic, 2 or 3 guys could do the job... they could travel with billions in easy mode.

(easy mode... does this feel make me remember some game ?)

The logistic operations MUST be strong protected in any war situation or strategic game, except in eve .

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Originally by: Isareal Altara

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if eve uni can do it... so cans you!

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Originally by: Doggiee

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EVE is about MMO - MULTIPLAYER and TEAMPLAY, not a few bored dudes with 10 accounts and 3 years of skills but no ability to socialize.

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