Loss of the gankers ship is no loss.

Loss of the gankers ship is no loss. They know its going to be lost, and its going to profit them even if its not a monetary profit.

When an entire segment of Eve's population refuses obstinently to take up arms, being flagged for PVP by them in High Sec isn't really that much of a penalty. I mean what are they going to do?

I think we all know the answer to that.

If it's not a loss, why do they lose it?

The security status penalties for suicide ganking are too high. They were more reasonable before (one of) the suicide ganking nerfs for which the carebears bleated so much. Since ratting for security status is one of the worst activities in EVE, it shouldn't require so much to repair one's security status. Fortunately many gankers are able to operate even with -10 status, but that doesn't excuse the flawed mechanic.

. Can you really say the penalties are too low?

Being "bad" in game should not be an easy road. It should mean something.

If it's not a loss, why do they lose it?

The point is that it's not a net loss - they gain overall.

The point is that it's not a net loss - they gain overall.

The penalty should be much higher so that they have to think a lot harder before risking it.

No, the correct answer is that they MIGHT gain, if the right loot drops, if they actually succeeded or not, and if they brought friends, the profit gets cut that many more ways.

Ganking CAN be profitable, with the right targets. They don't always exist.

I tend to agree the flawed mechanic is that negative sec status is an attempt to keep them out which is not working either.

I would rather have a stand your ground rule to allow high sec players to defend themselves from gankers rather than a pathetic attempt to keep them out. But alas I have no idea how to make such a law or rule or mechanic work. I was thinking about a pretimer like the GCC timer but it counts down and the ganker can not attack until the timer runs out. During that 15 minute window the ganker(s) are legal targets in high sec. But that is too cumbersome and would not work well at all either.
If you saw a target at a gate how could you track it for 15 minutes while your timer wound down? No not a good way at all.
Like I said no idea how to make this work.

Many posts are appearing of late asking if the penalty for suicide-ganking is too low. From the gankees point of view, it probably is. They lost a ship. I will now put to you the other side of the argument.
Suicide-gankers blow people up for many reasons. It may be for profit, in response to a player event or in many cases, they do it simply because it's fun[ny]. Now lets talk about penalties.

The gankee loses a ship & it's mods, plus whatever else resides in the cargohold.
The ganker loses a ship & it's mods, whatever resides in the cargohold, sec status, gains a 15 minute GCC timer & can be shot by anyone for the duration. Can you really say the penalties are too low?

You suicide gank with cargo and mods??

Seriously, if you are at -10 and you get your ships from a corp orca the risk is what again?

Z
E
R
O

You suicide gank with cargo and mods??

Seriously, if you are at -10 and you get your ships from a corp orca the risk is what again?

Z
E
R
O

Aside from Suicide Ganking (which you want banned), what is the risk to a miner?

Z is for Z, the last letter in the alphabet
E is for EHP
R is roaming around and ganking Hulks
O is for OMG... tears

I could offer a compromise for that aswell. If suicide-ganking were to be banned (will never happen, deal with it), mining should also be banned.

One can always find a happy ending :)

I dont care about this thread or what anyone says in the thread, I have no opinion.

I just wanted to post, I can't believe it's not butter.

Edit: @OP

What a sideways argument completely off the mark.

Anyone aiding a pirate gets gcc. If a pirate takes a ship out of an orca it can be attacked just like the pirate can be. No warping to gates or docking for 15 minutes. Just like a remote repper gets in trouble so should a orca for suppling the ship to a pirate.

Total sandbox mmo, CCP will do nothing.

Other side is new players that have little ISK get a new mining ship.

*GANKED* and now they are distressed and quit Eve.

Eve already has issue with low numbers of new users.

So basically YES is fun to gank and pop ships, down side is without new players and ganked players leaving, Eve slowly withers and dies.

GCC in HS = Concord. Do you really want to be CONCORDED every time you spit your Hulk out of your Orca?

I said same mechanic as a remote rep. If a remote repper reps a pirate what happens? It wont affect me cause i won't be aiding a pirate. Whatever no concord just able to be attacked for 15 minutes. Mind is on low sec lol.

The ganker loses a ship & it's mods, whatever resides in the cargohold, sec status, gains a 15 minute GCC timer, can be shot by anyone for the duration & receives no insurance payout. Can you really say the penalties are too low?

Yet all of those negatives are of little to no consequence to the ganker.

Taking all of those into consideration, the ganker has made a cost/benefit analysis and made a conscious decision that their course of action is of greater benefit than cost to them.

Yet all of those negatives are of no to little consequence to the ganker.

If the ganker had any regard for the ship they were flying, their security status, GCC timer, no insurance payout, then...

They wouldn't do it.

Taking all of those into consideration, the ganker has made a cost/benefit analysis and made a conscious decision that their course of action is of greater benefit than cost to them.

Repping an Outlaw gives you an aggression timer for 15m. It doesn't stop you from warping or docking, it just lets anyone shoot you in the next 15m. Since gankers jet the destroyers at safespots, this would have no effect.

Repping someone who's GCC gets you GCC and thus Concorded.

All of that is moot since nobody actually has to board the ship from the hangar. The orca can just jettison the destroyer, then the ganker board it.

Either the Orca gets a criminal aggro timer every time it jettisons a ship (meaning anyone can tackle and kill your orca if you jet a hulk), or your proposal will not affect gankers at all (it won't either way, but the first one at least gives the ganker's orca an aggro timer)


Are Miners in HS really this clueless about the mechanics of the game they play?

Taking all of those into consideration, the ganker has made a cost/benefit analysis and made a conscious decision that their course of action is of greater benefit than cost to them..

Imposing stiffer penalties doesn't really do much to lower crime rates. But ultimately it's all dumb logic because you are thinking in real life terms. This is a game: The only risk at any point in time ever to me as a PVP/GANK/SUPERGRIEFER pilot is that my time is wasted, assuming that's what my goals are (They aren't, I play eve for the Empire building and the giant space battles like in starwars only with slightly worse art design).

A great example would be the Burn Jita freighter interdiction: A lot of people thought we were making money off of that.

We weren't. Oh a few goons may have become independently wealthy from it due to market speculation and scooping the right thing at the right time, but as an alliance, it cost a lot more money than it brought in. The net payout to the organization was in entertainment. The fleets that came to fight us were fun, the freighters that came to blow up were also fun.

So when factoring in your equations don't forget to also toss in entertainment value for the person perpetuating the deed.

Acutally no i don't know how a ganker does his thing, i don't do it. I know i can right click a orca open ship hanger and hit board ship on one of the ships and the ship pops out and i get in it. So yeah i know how a orca works but i don't know how you guys gank. Did not think about jetting the ship out so i admit was a bad idea. I know mechanics but not how the the gankers do thier thing.

Yet all of those negatives are of little to no consequence to the ganker.

Taking all of those into consideration, the ganker has made a cost/benefit analysis and made a conscious decision that their course of action is of greater benefit than cost to them.

If the ganker had any regard for the ship they were flying, their security status, GCC timer, no insurance payout, then...

They wouldn't do it.

Many posts are appearing of late asking if the penalty for suicide-ganking is too low. From the gankees point of view, it probably is. They lost a ship. I will now put to you the other side of the argument.
Suicide-gankers blow people up for many reasons. It may be for profit, in response to a player event or in many cases, they do it simply because it's fun[ny]. Now lets talk about penalties.

The gankee loses a ship & it's mods, plus whatever else resides in the cargohold.
The ganker loses a ship & it's mods, whatever resides in the cargohold, sec status, gains a 15 minute GCC timer, can be shot by anyone for the duration & receives no insurance payout. Can you really say the penalties are too low?

Eve is supposed to be cold and heartless as per mittens and his rants on ten ton hammer

Therefore, the cost to gankers is not high enough.

This is a matter of penalties, not cost.

A penalty is a type of cost.

cost (k+¦st):

n.
2. The expenditure of something, such as time or labor, necessary for the attainment of a goal.
It was necessary for Hank to expend hard-earned security standing to attain his goal of suicide ganking that ship.

v.intr.
To require a specified payment, expenditure, effort, or loss.
By suicide ganking, Hank will lose security standing.

v.tr.
2. To cause to lose, suffer, or sacrifice.
The act of suicide ganking cost Hank 0.1 points of security standing.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cost

Main Entry:penalty GÇé[pen-l-tee] Show IPA
Part of Speech:noun
Definition:punishment
Synonyms:amends, amercement, cost, damages, disadvantage, discipline, dues, fall, fine, forfeit, forfeiture, handicap, mortification, mulct, price, rap, retribution

http://thesaurus.com/browse/penalty?s=t

And a penalty, by definition, is a type of cost. Like an orange is a fruit, or a dog is a mammal, or the Sun is a star.

That drunken hookup with that sorority girl cost me my marriage.

My divorce cost me the house, my convertible, and my credit rating.

Hooked up with many-a-sorority girl, never been married, fortunately.

The "art" of ganking.

Ganking isn't as easy as one may think. Don't forget the victim only sees the epitome of the gank; that final 10 seconds climax of work the ganker had to do. One mistake, and the gank will fail.

A successful gank takes a good amount of preparation, scouting, logistics and tactical positioning. On top of that there are factors which the ganker can never be 100% sure of such as skills trained.

The "art" of ganking relies on figuring out the cheapest setup(s) for the gank.

Ganking actually takes more work than gate camping, unless you plan to overkill. The best gankers do not overkill and are ready to get the occasional failed gank.

And tbh, all crap about miners can defend themselves against gankers is utter bullshit.

The main problem in this whole debate seems to be that there is little or no control on the recycling of characters because their security status is to low
EULA clearly states that the repeated recycling of characters due to low security status is seen as a exploit by ccp
It only takes a relative short time to train for a dedicated suicide pilot even so shorter than trying to recover your security status thru grinding belt rats in low or 0.0 sec, second also takes effort something these griefers tend to avoid at all cost , effort

CCP been so transfixed on finding rmt traders and bots , rightly so, that they have little or norescources left to check all the characters being recycled

so ppeople are fully abusing the recycling of characters who s sec status be ame so low due to suicideganking that they can t even enter high sec anymore

Better and more control will go a long way

Most dedicated gankers don't bother recycling alts. Especially since CCP bans people pretty quick if they biomass too soon after a gank.

you might not but there are plenty out there who do and even boast about it and they getting away with it somehow

True indeed for a older more experienced pilot ,but this generation of newplayers don t like effort
Also i think there is nothing wrong with suicide tactics , only thing wrong is this whole campaign with the goal to ruin the game and eventually force a large group [i even dare to say the large majority) of players out of the game

there one you forgot that no one trys to use.

U get ganked you have KILL RIGHTS on the S.O.B that gank you hunt him down and killem for crying out loud then he has a double loss.

Many posts are appearing of late asking if the penalty for suicide-ganking is too low. From the gankees point of view, it probably is. They lost a ship. I will now put to you the other side of the argument.
Suicide-gankers blow people up for many reasons. It may be for profit, in response to a player event or in many cases, they do it simply because it's fun[ny]. Now lets talk about penalties.

The gankee loses a ship & it's mods, plus whatever else resides in the cargohold.
The ganker loses a ship & it's mods, whatever resides in the cargohold, sec status, gains a 15 minute GCC timer, can be shot by anyone for the duration & receives no insurance payout.

Can you really say the penalties are too low?

there one you forgot that no one trys to use.

U get ganked you have KILL RIGHTS on the S.O.B that gank you hunt him down and killem for crying out loud then he has a double loss.

Some people lie. Even when they're boasting.

Many posts are appearing of late asking if the penalty for suicide-ganking is too low. From the gankees point of view, it probably is. They lost a ship. I will now put to you the other side of the argument.
Suicide-gankers blow people up for many reasons. It may be for profit, in response to a player event or in many cases, they do it simply because it's fun[ny]. Now lets talk about penalties.

The gankee loses a ship & it's mods, plus whatever else resides in the cargohold.
The ganker loses a ship & it's mods, whatever resides in the cargohold, sec status, gains a 15 minute GCC timer, can be shot by anyone for the duration & receives no insurance payout. Can you really say the penalties are too low?

They are.

The SS penalty should be higher and farming SS back shouldn't be the joke it is but an extreme and tedious work to achieve opposed to how hard it is to gank someone, but CCP and common sense are two different things

If you want to shoot whatever with no consequences you should go to null, thing is that you need some brains to go there and do stuff while high sec ganking is a no brains stuff and this is what real Eve is about.

Here's how to populate low/null sec, revert SS and concord presence in between actual SS systems/zones.

They are.

The SS penalty should be higher and farming SS back shouldn't be the joke it is but an extreme and tedious work to achieve opposed to how hard it is to gank someone, but CCP and common sense are two different things

If you want to shoot whatever with no consequences you should go to null, thing is that you need some brains to go there and do stuff while high sec ganking is a no brains stuff and this is what real Eve is about.

Here's how to populate low/null sec, revert SS and concord presence in between actual SS systems/zones.

They are.

The SS penalty should be higher and farming SS back shouldn't be the joke it is but an extreme and tedious work to achieve opposed to how hard it is to gank someone, but CCP and common sense are two different things

If you want to shoot whatever with no consequences you should go to null, thing is that you need some brains to go there and do stuff while high sec ganking is a no brains stuff and this is what real Eve is about.

Here's how to populate low/null sec, revert SS and concord presence in between actual SS systems/zones.

The fact that suic ganking is so prevalent suggests that the penalty is too low. Continue to fix the loopholes and increase the penalty. At present, committing a space "felony" in hisec is equivalent to getting a parking ticket and ignoring it.

Does your Car get blown up by the Police when you ignore a parking ticket? If so, where do you live, I want to visit.

The penaties you recieve for repeated ganking or just ganking are the most balanced in the whole game.

Its just risk vs reward. Exhumer pilots want more reward so they go mine in there hulk, the hulk is worth ganking so up goes the pilots risk.

If you want a safer life ask for less reward mine in a covetor or a Battleship.

I don't mine in the first place

The main difference between you and me is that I decided to go there were real stuff happens, where risk vs reward means something, while you keep putting words you have no clue about and come out with speeches how your internet life is so awesome.

You should go live in null, there are plenty of targets out there, but I guess you rather dock asap as soon as a cloaky stuff appears in your local.

Go play on your sandbox with your 10 YO friendies and move on to null if someday you grow a pair

Sometimes you need a break from HIGH DRAMALAMA pvp and just want to shoot something. Having a gank alt doesn't mean you don't do conventional pvp.

Sometimes you need a break from HIGH DRAMALAMA pvp...

i'm sorry but this is hard to believe in. It's like professional boxer will go and beat to death little child on the street just to "get a break and just shoot something". Either you a warrior or "bad boy"....

What creates all that drama you feel the need to take a break from?

Wouldn't be "risk", would it?

It's a monetary loss, but some people like to argue in terms of utility - the satisfaction a ganker receives from ganking - which is immeasurable. Abstract concept gain outweighs quantifiable ISK loss... right. It does, to some extent, which is why ganking occurs at all, but it's no way to make an argument about changing game mechanics.

Its not a loss its a calculated expense

I was unaware that actually tanking an Exhumer instead of going for max cargo/max yield & staying aligned was utter bullshit.

Thank you for bringing this up.

If you destroy someones material and the police know about it you will be locked up. Thats how a justice system works and thats how it should work in Eve. If you dont then Concord is just a joke.
This should equate to a high sec ganker being locked into low sec when he commits a crime - low sec becomes the prison.

Destroying a ship in high sec that costs less than 50 mill ISK you should be locked out of high sec for 24 hours.
100 mill - 48 hours
200 mill - 72 hours
300+ mill - 96 hours

Hello.

Happy to be of service. Considering how clueless you appear to be maybe I should considering tutoring you.

Staying aligned in a Exhumer is so going to work when you mine. And of course tanking a Hulk is really doable Wow, it's going to take another destroyer to kill it. What a difference.

Don't make yourself look even more stupid then you are.

/Mangold

EvE blows you up instead of Locking you up. Seems more severe to me.

I actually know what I'm talking about here, because I once was a miner. I also never lost an Exhumer. You can stay aligned at a mere 20-25% of your max speed. When random person in a destroyer appears on your overview, he or she can't get an immediate lock on you. In that time, you press the warp button & are gone before you get scramed. All the while, staying within range of whatever rock you're mining.

I understand that this may be too much effort for you though.

Nope. You just showed how little you know. It takes time to accelerate up to be able to warp.

I still call bullshit on your arguments.

Btw, nice killstats you have.

As long as suicide ganking is possible, the penalties will always be "too low."

25% to 75% takes about 4 seconds. You see a target appear on the overview from over 250km.

Thanks, I like losing ships on my alt :p

No.
The punishment does not fit the crime in that case because the criminal expects and doesnt care if he's blown up.

On a serious note. I actually think that ganking should be possible in high sec.

I do think that the security status drop should be much higher or that the time to increase your security status should be longer. It's way to easy to gank someone in high sec or in low sec and rat up the security status. Done it myself more times than I can remember.

25% to 75% takes about 4 seconds. You see a target appear on the overview from over 250km.

Thanks, I like losing ships on my alt :p

except I can still gank people even when -10, just takes a bit more work and synchronization to do so,

Many posts are appearing of late asking if the penalty for suicide-ganking is too low. From the gankees point of view, it probably is. They lost a ship. I will now put to you the other side of the argument.
Suicide-gankers blow people up for many reasons. It may be for profit, in response to a player event or in many cases, they do it simply because it's fun[ny]. Now lets talk about penalties.

The gankee loses a ship & it's mods, plus whatever else resides in the cargohold.
The ganker loses a ship & it's mods, whatever resides in the cargohold, sec status, gains a 15 minute GCC timer, can be shot by anyone for the duration & receives no insurance payout. Can you really say the penalties are too low?

[

Oh really. Everytime some random muppet tries to say he knows his way around pvp and you check their pathetic kill stats they always post with an alt and have some pvp god main. Amazlingy enough that name is always secret.

Btw, here's a link for you. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Sensor_Booster_II

Have fun.

You realize a lot of alliances forbit forum posting? And that forces a lot of peopel to post with their alts? Even if jsut to be sure to not slip and post on CAOD with wrong char that would get him in trouble?

Note the "Sometimes." The miners are whining that they want to escape risk at "All Times."

Bit of a difference.

Anyway, no the thing that you need an occasional break from is effort. It takes much less effort to kill miners than it does to force PvP. That's still not no effort, but it's less. It's the new version of gatecamping.

When an entire segment of Eve's population refuses obstinently to take up arms, being flagged for PVP by them in High Sec isn't really that much of a penalty. I mean what are they going to do?

I think we all know the answer to that.

In truth what you want a break from is risk.

There's a difference between suicide and getting a fun, satisfying fight.

What would you describe as "a fun, satisfying fight"?

I'm betting it involves a whole bunch of risk mitigation and that's where the effort lies.

Oh really. Everytime some random muppet tries to say he knows his way around pvp and you check their pathetic kill stats they always post with an alt and have some pvp god main. Amazlingy enough that name is always secret.

Btw, here's a link for you. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Sensor_Booster_II

Have fun.

I don't know what risk mitigation means to you, but I lose ships at a pretty steady pace. That doesn't look like well mitigated risks to me.

Webs. 3 webs on each hulk webbing each other, aligned out to a SS at 75% max speed (should be abot 7m/s). Be sure to fleetwarp rather than warp individually.

Since you're actually trying, instead of simply whining for a ban on ebil people, I figure I'll give you a suggestion.

Webs. 3 webs on each hulk webbing each other, aligned out to a SS at 75% max speed (should be abot 7m/s). Be sure to fleetwarp rather than warp individually.

So this is the newest way to get people to do something they shouldn't and then get their Hulks destroyed by Concord?

Protip: players in the same corp can do anything they want to each other (unless its an npc corp).

For EVE to be fair anytime a ship is attacked in high sec the attacker should not be allowed to play for at least a half day or more.

The gankee loses a ship & it's mods, plus whatever else resides in the cargohold.
The ganker loses a ship & it's mods, whatever resides in the cargohold, sec status, gains a 15 minute GCC timer, can be shot by anyone for the duration & receives no insurance payout. Can you really say the penalties are too low?

Yeah, a T1 fitted artillery ship is soooo much ISK to lose as a ganker. Also, why would you have cargo in the hold when that is what you use your neutral alt to collect from the gankees wreck?

The ganker loses a ship & it's mods, whatever resides in the cargohold, sec status, gains a 15 minute GCC timer, can be shot by anyone for the duration & receives no insurance payout. Can you really say the penalties are too low?

The fact that suic ganking is so prevalent suggests that the penalty is too low. Continue to fix the loopholes and increase the penalty. At present, committing a space "felony" in hisec is equivalent to getting a parking ticket and ignoring it.

The fact that mining is so prevalent suggests that the reward is too high. Continue to fix the loopholes and reduce the yields. At present, mining in highsec is equivalent to sitting at home on a couch and getting free money from the government.

Technetium...

IMHO, suicide ganking generally shouldn't be worthwhile. It should only be worthwhile to take out cargo ships carrying unusually valuable cargoes and very expensively equipped ships. Suicide ganking isn't some difficult pursuit. It just takes enough people willing to gang together and be able to properly fit ships to alpha/2 strike a target. Also IMHO, suicide gankers should get more return on their time from engaging in things like faction PVP, WH and nullsec adventures.

I don't want suicide ganking to be eliminated. I just don't think it should be profitable.

Right now the penalty is too light for suicide ganking.

You were confused about the simplest HS aggression mechanics. You don't know about the mechanics of the space you live in.

So this is the newest way to get people to do something they shouldn't and then get their Hulks destroyed by Concord?

Actually sorry to burst your bubble but i live in Null sec and am in the CFC currently in 1dh. I also have a account that is in FW now that there is a new Fweddit Corp and a indy alt in high sec. Most of null sec is carebear they just choose not to be guarded by concord. They completely jew out constantly, join fleet when one pops up then right back to making money. Most in null don't know mechanics i see plenty of numbnuts in every crop no matter if your goons, test, Fa whatever.

I would say most null does not know how to pvp i am there i know. Look at home defence fleets lol a bunch of carebears running around dieing trying to defend but they don't know how to pvp. I am working on getting better at pvp so i joined the FW corp. i sure didn't learn it in all the fleets i join and i follow commands and hit f1 when told.

If they finally fix ganking i will be glad. Force all the gankers into low and null sec so we can get more fights out there. Nothing like a good old hour roam with noone to shoot at in null cause everyone wants to just jew and hide in the stations. I choose to live in Null but i don't force it on everyone else. I got a idea how bout this old school UO rules once you go red 3 times your permanent red. You guys whine to much and got it easy in eve being able to repair your sec status quit being carebears about sec status take it like a man and go permanent red no fixing status. Flag accounts if they biomass more then 5 times to be reviewed. No reason to have to delete characters over and over.

Technetium...

IMHO, suicide ganking generally shouldn't be worthwhile. It should only be worthwhile to take out cargo ships carrying unusually valuable cargoes and very expensively equipped ships. Suicide ganking isn't some difficult pursuit. It just takes enough people willing to gang together and be able to properly fit ships to alpha/2 strike a target. Also IMHO, suicide gankers should get more return on their time from engaging in things like faction PVP, WH and nullsec adventures.

I don't want suicide ganking to be eliminated. I just don't think it should be profitable.

Right now the penalty is too light for suicide ganking.

I don't want suicide ganking to be eliminated. I just don't think it should be profitable.
.

Does your Car get blown up by the Police when you ignore a parking ticket? If so, where do you live, I want to visit.

You live in Lowsec but don't understand the difference between an agression countdown and GCC. You live in Null and didn't know that Logi are free to jump gates/dock at any time while repping.
Those are kind of important mechanics.

Also, Post with your Main.

Not only does my car not get blown up when I ignore a parking ticket, I also dont get paid a higher amount than my car was worth after the fact.

Actually I think you need to brush up logi can't jump anymore after repping a agressed person.

Just double checked, repping someone with a 60s violence timer does not in fact give you the 60s violence timer. That timer is what prevents docking/jumping. In HS, youth get the 15m "someone can shoot you" timer when you rep somebody, but that doesn't stop you from docking/jumping, hence the continued whines about neut RR.

If you're going to call someone out on knowledge of common game mechanics, it really helps to be right.

Well that needs to change. Nuet repair is gay. Maybe I will start playing station games with my carrier. That's always fun pvp there right.

too low huh? Yah let's make the sec status hit lower for ganking in high-sec....because we DONT have enough of those people doing that already. Consider it crowd control then.

Now who needs to HTFU. waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah this thread reads like the victim of a suicide gank. waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

I would agree with your statement if carebear ideas were aimed at improving the game, not nurturing it. In my opinion, any idea promoting an automatic/NPC response or consequence does not promote an MMO-style of gameplay, quite the contrary. A nerf to suicide ganking has therefore far less gameplay value than buff to fighting back.

But carebears do invest energy in fighting back: they do so on the forums as it involves no risk in assets.

All jokes about "tears-fueled-ships" aside, they do show one thing: the will to fight back is definitely present only it is used the wrong way (out of game instead of in-game).

EvE blows you up instead of Locking you up. Seems more severe to me.

The fact that mining is so prevalent suggests that the reward is too high. Continue to fix the loopholes and reduce the yields. At present, mining in highsec is equivalent to sitting at home on a couch and getting free money from the government.

We could debate this forever in aconstructive way ,bottom line is that the current situation will only damage or worse case destroy this great game

There are plenty of ideas out there to solve it in a balanced way that will satisfy most of both sides

Welcome to 6 months ago. Insurance doesn't pay out if you get killed by CONCORD.

I wasnt talking about concord.

The ganker loses a ship & it's mods, whatever resides in the cargohold, sec status, gains a 15 minute GCC timer, can be shot by anyone for the duration & receives no insurance payout. Can you really say the penalties are too low?

The gankee loses a ship & it's mods, plus whatever else resides in the cargohold.

Which can be replaced in minutes. Now, if it took nothing less than a 100+ mil isk battleship to gank a barge then yeah your argument would hold water. Gank dessies don't count as a real loss. Hell neither do gank battlecruisers to anyone with a mission alt. Sec status is so easy to get back up it's not even a real consideration. GCC just means some sitting in a safespot or warping around for 15 minutes while watching TV.

In the case of an exhumer you are talking about a lot of isk that insurance doesn't cover properly anyway. Platinum insurance payout on a Hulk is just under 60 mil. They sell for 250+ mil.

So. Lets to the math.
A relatively new player gankee loses weeks of time (ore doesn't magically appear in your station hangar) and millions of isk even after insurance (calculator is in Start Menu/All Programs/Accessories if you need it).

A smart ganker loses a few mil and has to do a few minutes of warping to shed his GCC and at most a couple of hours or so of grinding to shed his sec hit.

Again that calculator is in Start Menu/All Programs/Accessories. Give it a look.

a relative new player doesnt have a hulk so that argument is out the window

The isk loss comparison is completely irrelevant to the argument being put forth. You consent to potentially losing whatever you're flying when you press undock.

Not notice the word "relatively"? You even said it. *facepalm*

sorry bro, if you've been playing four months you're not anywhere near being a new player. just because someone is not capable of abstract thought and has no understanding of game mechanics doesn't mean you're relatively new, it means you're lazy which unironically is what most non-bot miners are anyways~

Does your Car get blown up by the Police when you ignore a parking ticket? If so, where do you live, I want to visit.

You can have fun however you prefer. If station games are fun for you, by all means play them and enjoy them.

Just don't try to have fun by mining (yeah some people do actually like it). The gankers tend to think they should be able to play the game any way they want but will kill anyone else trying to do the same thing. Baffling...

Just don't try to have fun by mining (yeah some people do actually like it). The gankers tend to think they should be able to play the game any way they want but will kill anyone else trying to do the same thing. Baffling...

Just don't try to have fun by ganking. The miners tend to think they should be able to play the game any way they want but will complain when anyone else tries to do the same thing. Baffling...

Hehe! Not even close. Miner playstyles do not prevent gankers from doing what they like. The reverse cannot be said.

Actually if the miner was to watch d-scan for gank ships he would pretty much ruin the playstyle of most gankers.

So in hi sec space, whenever miners see a combat ship on scan, they should hide?

It has guns, and could gank you if they choose.

You rarely ever see anything other than Catalysts & Thrashers used in ganks. If you do, it's a Talos or Tornado. Is 4 ships really too much for you?

Now that is some good information. Oracles too.

Local is a helluva tool.

Local means jack in high sec. Too much traffic.

Now that is some good information. Oracles too.

i know that you can only look at a spreadsheet and say "hmm yes the penalties are too low" but the fact that you have to operate very differently when you're -5 or lower is quite a substantial penalty

I wasnt talking about concord.

Which can be replaced in minutes. Now, if it took nothing less than a 100+ mil isk battleship to gank a barge then yeah your argument would hold water. Gank dessies don't count as a real loss. Hell neither do gank battlecruisers to anyone with a mission alt. Sec status is so easy to get back up it's not even a real consideration. GCC just means some sitting in a safespot or warping around for 15 minutes while watching TV.

In the case of an exhumer you are talking about a lot of isk that insurance doesn't cover properly anyway. Platinum insurance payout on a Hulk is just under 60 mil. They sell for 250+ mil.

So. Lets to the math.
A relatively new player gankee loses weeks of time (ore doesn't magically appear in your station hangar) and millions of isk even after insurance (calculator is in Start Menu/All Programs/Accessories if you need it).

A smart ganker loses a few mil and has to do a few minutes of warping to shed his GCC and at most a couple of hours or so of grinding to shed his sec hit.

Again that calculator is in Start Menu/All Programs/Accessories. Give it a look.

Well actually your example is rather like if concord shoots someone because he left cans behind them, it's absolutely nnot the same thing.
Your perfect example would be "Does your gar get blown up by the police if you start killing defenceless citizens with your car just because you can"

Bring irl to Eve is a very bad example, irl is already not an example of justice and Eve is just the opposite, reward criminals.

Once again, you want no consequences or little because you want to shoot stuff? -go to low or null where risk vs reward means something, high sec is far too safe for Eve bullies/criminals.
Now you can turn this thing as much as you want and compare with RL, wish you good luck.

Just don't try to have fun by mining (yeah some people do actually like it). The gankers tend to think they should be able to play the game any way they want but will kill anyone else trying to do the same thing. Baffling...

Hehe! Not even close. Miner playstyles do not prevent gankers from doing what they like. The reverse cannot be said.

Yes because Security Status is so hard to get back, lets be honest here, the only reason people have low Security status is because they CHOOSE too.

You could fix your Security status in a few hours.

Let's be honest here, the only reason people lose Hulks is because the CHOOSE to.

You could make the 250m for a new Hulk in a few hours.

If they didn't mine in highsec. You will never convince them though, because most of them are devout believers that they are the primary supply of minerals on the market. How else would you build your supers, right?... Even though any 0.0 Alliance with Sov gets vast ammounts of every mineral available for the price of 3 Hulks.

At 30 Million Isk Per Hour mining Omber a Hulk takes just 8h20m to pay off. Compared to most nice ratting ships, that's nothing.

Agreed. It's still ****** isk compared to mining elsewhere though.

ABC would get you ~70m atm, and Stripping Hidden Belts like ~63m per Bloodtear, I think.

Wasn't long ago that ABC got you 50m.

Then there's harvesting space farts, although I'm not sure on the rate for that.

Probably better than harvesting space tears. You can turn farts into energy to sell to your power company.

Being "good" in game shouldn't be an easy road either. It should mean something.

Being a pirate in highsec should be almost impossible

Being a pirate in highsec should be almost impossible