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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 9 post(s) |
NightmareX
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.09.10 12:26:00 -
[451]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: NightmareX
The Tempest / Fleet Tempest can already use 8 weapons, so why remove one med slot only because of one extra turret?. It's not like your adding more weapon hardpoints on the ship.
I hope you do know that raven can also use 8 weapons (6 launcher+4 turret slots) and yet CNR doesnt get another slot.
Read up on my edited comment.
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Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.09.10 12:31:00 -
[452]
Posted before edit :)
7 turrets... dunno. cba to count DPS now but i doubt it would be a big problem.
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Kenpachi Viktor
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.09.10 12:31:00 -
[453]
hmm... let's see...
Amarr buff: check Caldari buff: check Gallente buff: check Minmatar nerf: check
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NightmareX
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.09.10 12:34:00 -
[454]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Posted before edit :)
7 turrets... dunno. cba to count DPS now but i doubt it would be a big problem.
CCP have already given the Fleet Tempest a 7th turret slot, so it's not a big problem after all. It must be fine as long they give it the extra turret slot.
And if it's not a problem, then the normal Tempest should get it to.
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Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.09.10 12:37:00 -
[455]
Originally by: NightmareX
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Posted before edit :)
7 turrets... dunno. cba to count DPS now but i doubt it would be a big problem.
CCP have already given the Fleet Tempest a 7th turret slot, so it's not a big problem after all. It must be fine as long they give it the extra turret slot.
And if it's not a problem, then the normal Tempest should get it to.
You are stepping on dangerous ground here. Why not give 7 launchers to raven? CCP gave it to CNR and it wasnt big issue. See?
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Aionstar
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Posted - 2009.09.10 12:52:00 -
[456]
Originally by: SuiJuris
Originally by: Aionstar
Quote: Gallente Navy Comet:
• Has been renamed to Federation Navy Comet • New slot layout: 3 high, 3 med, 4 low slots, 2 turrets, no launchers • Fittings: 152 CPU, 40 powergrid • Bonuses: 20% small hybrid turret damage and 7.5% small hybrid turret tracking per level • Hitpoints: not changed, keeps 50% more hit points buffer next to its tech 1 counterpart (Tristan) • Dronebay increased to 30m3, drone bandwidth increased to 15m3 • Capacitor: 365 capacitor, 234.375s recharge (about 1.55 cap/s) • Speed: 350m/s, 3.3 agility • Sensor: 32km targeting range, 4 locked targets, 580mm scan resolution, 11 magnetometric sensor strength, 42m signature radius
ufff, you give hybrid bonuses and lowest base speed of ALL navy frigs? see: ANSlicer Speed: 390m/s, 3.3 agility, 5 low slots range laser +5% more damage bonus GNComet Speed: 350m/s, 3.3 agility, 4 low slot hybrid bonus, 3 small drones mmm... why not drone speed+damage bonus if it so slow?
Do you have any idea how much MORE dps this ship is going to do then the slicer? Its got effectively 4 blasters AND 3 light drones vs the Slicers effective 4.5 lasers...
try to read again... "Effectively" in same class its got that unbonused 3 drones, nothing more. Blasters, as main weapon, need speed. Comet must be fast with blasters or slow with drones. So, "why not drone speed+damage bonus..."???
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NightmareX
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.09.10 12:52:00 -
[457]
Edited by: NightmareX on 10/09/2009 12:55:18
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: NightmareX
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Posted before edit :)
7 turrets... dunno. cba to count DPS now but i doubt it would be a big problem.
CCP have already given the Fleet Tempest a 7th turret slot, so it's not a big problem after all. It must be fine as long they give it the extra turret slot.
And if it's not a problem, then the normal Tempest should get it to.
You are stepping on dangerous ground here. Why not give 7 launchers to raven? CCP gave it to CNR and it wasnt big issue. See?
First of all, the normal Raven is good enough with 6 launcher slots, so it doesn't need one more. The CNR got one extra launcher slot because it's a faction ship and it's a better version of the normal Raven.
When you consider it that the Tempest sucks badly in 90% of all situations, then the normal Tempest deserves to get one turret extra to begin with. It have needed it for years already. The Tempest does need that without taking the other BS'es into comparsion. The normal Tempest will still do lower DPS and still have much more crappier tank than the normal Mega, so i don't see a problem with that.
And 2ndly, the Fleet Tempest have already got the 7th turret slot, but don't remove the 6th med slot. The 6th med slot is the only thing that makes the Fleet Tempest worth to fly.
CCP can dream to get me to use a Fleet Tempest if it doesn't have 6 med slot. Because when i know the new Navy Mega will be here, that is also pretty awesome, because you can now possibly fit 7x t2 Neutrons, 1x Heavy Neut, 100MN MWD II, 1x Heavy Capacitor Booster II, 3x 1600mm RTP's without problems.
Then why should i choose a Fleet Tempest over the Navy Mega then if the Fleet Tempest only have 5 med slots?.
Because most of the EW's today sucks on a Tempest with 5 med slots, then you don't have enough EW to make it worth it tbh as long you need the MWD, Disruptor, Web and the Cap Injector.
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BarfCo
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Posted - 2009.09.10 14:15:00 -
[458]
Originally by: CCP Ytterbium Typhoon Fleet Issue:
òSlot layout: 8 high, 4 med, 7 low, 5 turrets, 5 launchers òFittings: 660 CPU, 13125 powergrid, 350 calibration, 3 rig slots òHitpoints: +50% hit points on hull (9316), armor (9316) and shields (8203)* òDronebay increased by 25m3, bandwidth unchanged òSpeed: +10% max velocity and agility increased by 10% òSensor: +25% ladar sensor strength
* Standard Typhoon armor and shield values have been swapped as well[/quote
It's a shame that you choose to step away from the legendary split weapon setup of the phoon.
It would still need both weapon upgrades to shine so instead of trying to get pilots to choose turrets or launchers over the other and ending up gimping the 3 part of their 5/3 layout stick with 4/4 and give it an extra mid. or low slot and I can do so much more with a extra mid. or low slot.
It would make the Phoon even more "Versatile".
Lest not forget these Epic words:
- The Typhoon - Much praised by its proponents and much maligned by its detractors, the Typhoon-class battleship has always been one of the most hotly debated spacefaring vessels around. Its distinguishing aspect - and the source of most of the controversy - is its sheer versatility, variously seen as either a lack of design focus or a deliberate freedom for pilot modification.
- A CCP Employee trying to make sense of the Phoon design.
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Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
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Posted - 2009.09.10 15:59:00 -
[459]
say, you two... i find it disturbing to see balancing posts with unrealistic assumptions of tempests and phoons fully fitted for damage. i'm sure as mega or geddon pilot, it's ok to fill all possible slots with weapons since you still have the room for an extra neut/RR. on top of that. but minnies don't work that way. although it's true that i don't roam low-sec all that often nor do i dwell on sisi - nor do i test anything other than yet another scimitar fitting there. but i'd like to think that i've lived in null-sec long enough and got to know quite a few alliances (~'s fitting boards) to say that RR is a must-have in any celestial direction of new eden. iow, there is just no missiles on "proper" tempests; they will never come with eight weapons.
therefore these buggers, both phoon and pest, in each regular or faction form, should be balanced with only one set of weapons (plus drones) in mind, powergrid being the obvious and usual limit. so what if they _theoretically_ could dish out 10-20% more? the matari-typical disadvantage in HP, is enough to cancel that out. same for all matari hulls, really.... it's not the muninn's fault that HAC-pew just doesnt take place within 50km anymore (unless you jump in; for those few seconds it takes to leadfoot away...)
no, this isn't one of those caldari-"i want it all"-posts either. it's the same discussion we had with tux about the cane - and at least that one has a mentionable chance of speed and/or oversized extenders on its side.
on paper, yes, one could have a omfgbbqweeeee dps machine - only for carebearing and only vs angels. for pvp, this would be the only way to achieve balance - putting the gist back into logistics |
Xavier Sunder
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Posted - 2009.09.10 16:59:00 -
[460]
Originally by: Mioelnir unbonused max skilled Siege Missile Launcher II with Rage Torps: 76.0dps double bonused max skilled Dual 425mm AC II with Hail: 73.2dps double bonused max skilled Dual 650mm AC II with Hail: 77.8dps double bonused max skilled 800mm AC II with Hail: 81.0dps
I just got to point out a few things about torps/missiles in general. Using Rage torps is generally a bad idea as the only targets they will do full dmg to are capitals, even the biggest BS will require a max painter to do full dmg. Anything smaller, even sitting completely still and you'll be doing miniscule dmg. They are the slowest speed, shortest range, by far slowest explosion speed, biggest explosion radius torps there are. Their base speed is 1250 m/s modified by your stats. Think about how many ships can outrun that or if not outrun it, outlast it. As it's only got 6.4 seconds to hit you, and if you're moving even 500, that's a big deal.
As for Ravens being the "best sniper boat in the game." I might buy that if you are sniping a POS and know what kind it is beforehand. Otherwise, I'll take instant hit weapons any day over missiles that take literally 25 seconds to reach their target.
I know all weapon systems have issues like this. Such as speed and traverse etc. But let's not use as examples shooting at stationary motherships with ammo that no one uses in practical situations, because it's just not remotely realistic.
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Mioelnir
Minmatar Meltdown Luftfahrttechnik
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Posted - 2009.09.10 17:18:00 -
[461]
Edited by: Mioelnir on 10/09/2009 17:21:45
Originally by: Xavier Sunder I just got to point out a few things about torps/missiles in general. Using Rage torps is generally a bad idea as the only targets they will do full dmg to are capitals, even the biggest BS will require a max painter to do full dmg. Anything smaller, even sitting completely still and you'll be doing miniscule dmg. They are the slowest speed, shortest range, by far slowest explosion speed, biggest explosion radius torps there are. Their base speed is 1250 m/s modified by your stats. Think about how many ships can outrun that or if not outrun it, outlast it. As it's only got 6.4 seconds to hit you, and if you're moving even 500, that's a big deal.
Hail is similarly unusable as Rage Torps in that regard, you only hit webbed moons. I just used Hail for this example because Hail has the same amount of raw damage as the blaster and pulse laser damage t2 ammo, whereas EMP has reduced base damage compared to Antimatter and Multifrequency. After going T2 Damage Ammo with the turrets, also going T2 Damage Ammo with the launcher seemed reasonable. Both ammo types don't apply their theoretical paper dps in most fights.
Quote: As for Ravens being the "best sniper boat in the game."
I said that about the Apoc, not the Raven. At least I intended to. It is a admittedly a bit confusingly located in the paragraph about both the CNR and the Navpoc getting the +25% scan resolution. It was never my intention though to imply that the Raven is a sniping BS.
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speacila pool
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Posted - 2009.09.10 17:52:00 -
[462]
so you are adding a extra turret to the fleet tempest, adding to the possible dps, but with taking away the 6th mid you are making the best tanking fit armor, which would take away from the possible dps to fit a tank.
does ccp even think when they buff ships. or do they just try to find ways of taking a good idea for a mimi ship and ****ing it all up. realy i had high hopes for the fleet tempy but yet again ccp fails at fixxing the problems they just push mimitar back farther evry time.
leave the 6th mid slot
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Grady Eltoren
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Posted - 2009.09.10 19:59:00 -
[463]
ARGH - Hopefully constructive. Having to retype this because the darn forum logged me out for inactivity.
1) Appreciate the look and boost idea with Navy & Faction ships - that is how they should be - a cut above. 2) I picked Minmatar because I like the underdog idea but I agree and hope you (CCP) take into account what people are saying here that Min is too much so. I picked Minmatar because I wanted someone who took a longer time to get good at but if I stuck with it the payoffs would be great. I am approaching 30 mil SP now and where is the light at the end of the tunnel? I am glad you finally understand the detriment of proj turrets and are going to look at them - but when?!?! 3) Turrets - Why do we all have to train so darn long to use them for the same IF NOT LESS dps? I have to train small, and med turret specializations just to use the large specialization? Yet Missile users don't have to do the same to train the bigger end of their dps spectrum. Why isn't that squared up? Why don't cruise missile spec skills require missile specialization and then heavy missile specialization? 4) Speed - Great Minmatar get a little faster but it doesn't amount to jack when a) your turrets can't hit the broad side of a silo and someone can web you. We have warp core optimizers, why not a bonus on minmatar to tracking disruptors or sensor damps as well as target painters? Help us out here. Why not an anti web device like the warp core stab is to scrams? 5) I have started training towards the cynabal, mach (even though those were nerfed too) and eventually domi because you have killed my hope in the minmatar Race. Like everyone says - might as well get rid of them. So much for the long shot.
Grady
P.S. Is it just me or has dps from projectiles dropped since APOC? I noticed this the same way we all noticed loot/salvage from missions dropped without an official note on the patch.
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Hull Blaster
Gallente Dark Nexxus
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Posted - 2009.09.10 23:48:00 -
[464]
I don't really understand why these new ships will only be available through factional warfare. The Comet and Navy Megathron are available through the LP store in Federal Navy stations. Are you suggesting the Comet will now only be bought through FW LP?? It makes no logical sense to get the Navy Megathron yet from the Federal Navy yet unable to buy the Navy Dominix unless you go PvP, its from the same Navy which is the same corp!
Please CCP, let us buy these new ships from the NPC corps outside of FW. Restrict them to the Navy corps of that faction fine, but don't keep them exclusively for FW.
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Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
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Posted - 2009.09.11 00:45:00 -
[465]
well... they can be traded in for FW LP "exlusively" but those guys can happily sell them ofc. FW store needs something exclusive or it'll be impossible to compete with macro-missioners over the very same items (unless FW were to give away more LP than any raven/dominix could farm....) the new implant sets aren't able to do that job (alone) - putting the gist back into logistics |
ALex Vega
Caldari Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2009.09.11 00:55:00 -
[466]
Originally by: Hull Blaster I don't really understand why these new ships will only be available through factional warfare. The Comet and Navy Megathron are available through the LP store in Federal Navy stations. Are you suggesting the Comet will now only be bought through FW LP?? It makes no logical sense to get the Navy Megathron yet from the Federal Navy yet unable to buy the Navy Dominix unless you go PvP, its from the same Navy which is the same corp!
Please CCP, let us buy these new ships from the NPC corps outside of FW. Restrict them to the Navy corps of that faction fine, but don't keep them exclusively for FW.
Lol the entire point for the tier 1 faction BSs being from FW is CCP trying to funnel more people into it. I think its fine having the 4 new ones from FW
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Frosteye
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Posted - 2009.09.11 02:27:00 -
[467]
My guess is the push for FW is to get the player base into it more to help with Dust 514. Which BTW since I mentioned it - Dust 514 - not only is it about time that someone finally did this (linking a FPS with a larger strategy game all in one so to say) but how cool is it that EVE happens to rock with a real economy and Dust's graphics look amazing.
Back to pt though - not sure I like being pushed into anything per se - but then again you have to give CCP some leeway to do what will work long term I guess.
Other thoughts - fix minmatar.
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Tau Dades
Caldari Even End of the Universe
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Posted - 2009.09.11 04:46:00 -
[468]
Where's my Cally Navy Drake?
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tical31
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Posted - 2009.09.11 07:20:00 -
[469]
Sorry i didnt read all post, but are there some changes for faction cruiser ?
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Freyya
Advanced Planetary Exports Intergalactic Exports Group
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Posted - 2009.09.11 08:25:00 -
[470]
Only really skimmed the topic but i'd have thought to see a similar bonus to the tier 2 ships as the marauders get, only a step less so like bonussed to 7 turrets instead of 8 or something. All in all the ideas look sound. Ohhh and Navy Domi equals teh pure sexeh, fapfapfap and all that. ___________
NOW COLLECTING ISD AND CCP AUTOGRAPHS It'll be worth something someday. -Rauth
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1600 RT
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Posted - 2009.09.11 11:48:00 -
[471]
Originally by: tical31 Sorry i didnt read all post, but are there some changes for faction cruiser ?
no. only frig and bs
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Mohenna
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Posted - 2009.09.11 12:09:00 -
[472]
Originally by: Akita T ...I _DEMAND_ you radically buff rockets
+1
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2009.09.11 15:17:00 -
[473]
Edited by: Ulstan on 11/09/2009 15:26:11
Originally by: CCP Ytterbium Scorpion Navy Issue:
We felt that a navy version of an ECM boat would be a bit over the top in term of balance, while not providing an enjoyable role for combat. This ship now indeed has less DPS than a Raven Navy Issue on paper, but that's not its purpose to specialize in damage. It focuses on tank over gank, or allows its pilot to fit regular PvP tackling equipment while keeping some decent shield buffer tank. All of this without saying (ok I said it) that it has two slots left for utilities or guns than can still be quite an edge in combat.
I'm still a little concerned about this. I agree entirely with the decision not to make it an ECM boat. Faction BS sized ECM boat = instant primary, insta dead, every time.
But 'tank' is not a role in PvP. A less damaging, shorter range raven with more EHP is not all that attractive, especially as an expensive faction ship.
Fitting regular PvP tackle gear while still having a shield tank is only really an advantage if you are looking to solo, where you might think such a trade worth the lesser firepower. But we want the scorp to be useful in gangs too, where you let faster locking ships do all the tackling.
If the scorp was essentially a raven that gave up one launcher for +1 utility high and a larger drone bay, that might be pretty inriguing - as long as it had the PG to make use of that utility high (which means 2x heavy neuts, basically)
Right now the raven has 6 missiles, 2 utility highs, but not enough PG to really use 2x heavy neuts. The navy scorp has 5 missiles, 2 utility highs, but also not enough PG to really use 2x heavy neuts.
I do not currently see any compelling reason why a PvP pilot would want to fly a Navy scorpion over a base raven, given the differences in costs
The scorpion does less dps, at less range, and has similar fitting issues preventing it from making use of the 2x heavy neuts. If it had +1 utility slot compared to the raven and the PG to use it, or if it had the same DPS as the base raven instead of less, it could conceivably be considered worth the extra money.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2009.09.11 15:55:00 -
[474]
Edited by: Ulstan on 11/09/2009 16:02:31 Also, either make the hookbill be a railboat or, and this is my preferred choice, make the merlin be a railboat and fix rockets to not suck horribly :p
I echo the feelings that the 5/5 hp layout is good for the normal phoon.
Still concerned the 6 med slot dominix will be an overpowered monster - it can mount the same shield tank a raven can while still having 7 low slots and a huge drone bay.
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Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.09.11 17:14:00 -
[475]
Quote: But 'tank' is not a role in PvP. At all. A less damaging, shorter range raven with more EHP is not all that attractive, especially as an expensive faction ship.
Quote: Right now the raven has 6 missiles, 2 utility highs, but not enough PG to really use 2x heavy neuts. The navy scorp has 5 missiles, 2 utility highs, but also not enough PG to really use 2x heavy neuts.
Quote: Why is this a good plan?
Quote: I do not currently see any compelling reason why a PvP pilot would want to fly a Navy scorpion over a base raven, given the differences in costs. Current navy scorp is a ship without a role.
Quote: The scorpion does less dps, at less range, and has similar fitting issues preventing it from making use of the 2x heavy neuts. If it had +1 utility slot compared to the raven and the PG to use it, or if it had the same DPS as the base raven instead of less, it could conceivably be considered worth the extra money.
Quote: And there's no point in saying the navy scorp makes the ultimate RR shield boat. Shield RR's have an absurdly high CPU cost almost no one can fit them. And anyway, the base T1 Raven can fit one more than the navy scorp.
Great post.
CCP Ytterbium what exactly is the ships role as you envision?
Can you provide us with an attractive and viable pvp fit with this new ship, particularly in comparision to the UTTERPWNESS of the others?
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Soulita
Gallente Inner Core
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Posted - 2009.09.11 20:59:00 -
[476]
OMG OMG OMG!!!
A navy dominix !
Yea I guess its old news but I just heard it today...
/me trys to rip the t2 rigs from my standard domi
ah well, guess I got to buy some new t2rigs for that baby when it hits my hangar and get a new sig...
Anyways thanks CCP, oh thanks...
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Techno Dog
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.09.11 21:36:00 -
[477]
Edited by: Techno Dog on 11/09/2009 21:39:59
Originally by: BarfCo It's a shame that you choose to step away from the legendary split weapon setup of the phoon.
It would still need both weapon upgrades to shine so instead of trying to get pilots to choose turrets or launchers over the other and ending up gimping the 3 part of their 5/3 layout stick with 4/4 and give it an extra mid. or low slot and I can do so much more with a extra mid. or low slot.
It would make the Phoon even more "Versatile".
Lest not forget these Epic words:
- The Typhoon - Much praised by its proponents and much maligned by its detractors, the Typhoon-class battleship has always been one of the most hotly debated spacefaring vessels around. Its distinguishing aspect - and the source of most of the controversy - is its sheer versatility, variously seen as either a lack of design focus or a deliberate freedom for pilot modification.
- A CCP Employee trying to make sense of the Phoon design.
Even if i jump for joy after i see the Navy 'phoon stats, i actually feel the right point in this message. The 'phoon is a really "not-the-best-for-anything-still-good-for-anything" ship in the game. With the 5/5 turret/launcher layout, the ship lost this title, no question to fitting the 'phoon for 5 Cruise or 5 Siege launcher are the way everyone become to use.
A fast thinked solution a little boost in the BS skill based DPS bonus, it's solve the "better DPS then normal 'phoon" problem, and solve the "loosing the 'phoon feeling" problem too...
The 5% bonus for large projectile and siege/cruise boosted for 7,5% is seems to be enough.
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Darth Skorpius
Crystalline INC Dead End Society
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Posted - 2009.09.11 22:32:00 -
[478]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Akita T We already have the Kestrel and the Harpy, and they're both "good enough" at what they do, but still they're pretty bad overall.
Did you mean the Harpy or the Hawk there? Because the Hawk isn't "good enough" it's pretty .... bad.
Quote: Turn it into a pure hybrid gun platform, NOT a pure missile boat.
I'd like a missile frigate that *works* tyvm. The Hawk doesn't *work*
-Liang
im assuming she means hte hawk, as the harpy isnt a missile boat ______________________________________________ Waiting for some random to make me a new sig |
Manu Hermanus
FaDoyToy
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Posted - 2009.09.11 23:06:00 -
[479]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
You are stepping on dangerous ground here. Why not give 7 launchers to raven? CCP gave it to CNR and it wasnt big issue. See?
yes please 7 launcher raven and extra mid slot on the cnr! </sarcasm>
the difference is the raven is already a viable, maybe even a good ship. and the cnr is a great ship.
the tempest, well lol
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Liang Nuren
The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2009.09.11 23:27:00 -
[480]
Originally by: Soporo
Great post.
Lower DPS than a Raven, check. Shorter range than a Raven, check. Still can't fit 2 hvy neuts, check. Same tired ole fitting issues, check. Still can't fit remote shield reps, check. Same crap drone bay and slowest, check. 10 or 20 tinmes the cost of a Raven, check. A little more EHP, check.
CCP Ytterbium what exactly is the ships role as you envision?
Can you provide us with an attractive and viable pvp fit with this new ship particularly in comparision to the pricetag, not to mention the UTTERPWNESS of the others?
Um. Hrm. Yeah. I'm unexcited about the Navy Scorp and Phoon myself. But the Navy Geddon and Navy Domi are looking Pretty Sexy!
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
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