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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 12 post(s) |

Adam Ridgway
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.10.11 19:15:00 -
[631]
Originally by: Shasis Edited by: Shasis on 11/10/2009 18:07:33 Edited by: Shasis on 11/10/2009 17:57:57 I'll do it short :
- Please CCP, have a look at the shield tank supercaps. Not being at 100% shields while beeing fleeted is just awful (with fleet bonuses). This makes Leviathan and Ragnarok worse than the armor tanked titans. And with the new HP's, repairing for 20 minutes after joining a fleet or entering a system is...
Possible solution : when joining a fleet, use the % shield and keep it. Then if my levi is 89% shield when I log in, my levi will still be at 89% shield after joining the fleet, instead of loosing a lot of buffer HP.
- Please have a look on supercapitals shield tanker implants. While Slaves are very powerful, ours poor shield tankers are stuck with +5... Maybe add a new set, and if a +X% max shield (as slaves) is too powerful, use instead a +X% all resists ?
Relaying this I mostlly tested with leaviathan & wyvern. Capital pilot buffer implants would be nice (I know how much of game balance them would break for subcap ships, but for capitals it would even out the play field).
As for the gang bonus, it gets a bit horrible yeah, with a couple of wyberns repping between them and a leviathan it took a while. The most problematic thing is armor tankers are allways ready to jump on the fight while shield tankers have an enormous disadvantage.
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Dianabolic
Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.11 22:10:00 -
[632]
Originally by: Adam Ridgway As for the gang bonus, it gets a bit horrible yeah, with a couple of wyberns repping between them and a leviathan it took a while. The most problematic thing is armor tankers are allways ready to jump on the fight while shield tankers have an enormous disadvantage.
What?
Shields, regenerate over time.
Armour, doesn't.
Yes, you have to buff yours a bit when you join gang, I will HAPPILY swap that ability for my armour to passive regenerate.
That's a REALLY good deal for shield tankers.
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Vexont
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Posted - 2009.10.11 22:23:00 -
[633]
I was not in a titan for very long, but when I entered FFA2 (Capital ships) 5 titans DDed me and brought me into hull, then 2 Motherships launched fighters and popped me (The whole ordeal lasted around 2 minutes) It seems that as A titan is given this new beam laser, the game is balanced into another sort of panic as to weather or not to bring capital ships into enemy territory whom is known to have titans before bringing in ships to kill its cap, my point is, it is a very good thing to re-balance the dooms days from just being a "Win button".
About the new enhancements to the Titan's health, I think it helps protect it from most doomsday attacks (Most fleets won't be comprised of 5 titans all fit with doomsdays for max DPS).
All in all, A very good point to make in the new dominion expansion coming out, all I can do is applaud all the changes coming that I have seen on the test server.
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Shasis
Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.10.11 23:01:00 -
[634]
Originally by: Dianabolic
What?
Shields, regenerate over time.
Armour, doesn't.
Yes, you have to buff yours a bit when you join gang, I will HAPPILY swap that ability for my armour to passive regenerate.
That's a REALLY good deal for shield tankers.
(Example for the Ragnarok) It takes 2 hours to regenerate the 15% bonus you're getting while in gang with the passive regen.
Which means that you enter the fiel after a jump with 15% less effective HP compared to the amor tankers... see the problem ? :)
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Dianabolic
Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.11 23:47:00 -
[635]
Originally by: Shasis
Originally by: Dianabolic
What?
Shields, regenerate over time.
Armour, doesn't.
Yes, you have to buff yours a bit when you join gang, I will HAPPILY swap that ability for my armour to passive regenerate.
That's a REALLY good deal for shield tankers.
(Example for the Ragnarok) It takes 2 hours to regenerate the 15% bonus you're getting while in gang with the passive regen.
Which means that you enter the fiel after a jump with 15% less effective HP compared to the amor tankers... see the problem ? :)
I do indeed see that shield users would like it not to work like this, I just don't think it would balance out against armour if it did.
It COULD take 2h, but if you were an armour tanker it would NEVER regen.
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Blazde
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.10.12 00:18:00 -
[636]
Edited by: Blazde on 12/10/2009 00:19:20
Originally by: Shasis (Example for the Ragnarok) It takes 2 hours to regenerate the 15% bonus you're getting while in gang with the passive regen.
Which means that you enter the fiel after a jump with 15% less effective HP compared to the amor tankers... see the problem ? :)
Just gonna repeat the point I made earlier in the supercarrier thread:
Quote: the more you boost shield and armour hp the more the anomolies of shield tanking vs armour tanking get amplified and things get unbalanced...... Hull hp are a more natural way to tame these issues
_
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HeliosGal
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Posted - 2009.10.12 01:07:00 -
[637]
so allow recharge while the titan pilot is offline or allow some other sort of boost to help out in this area
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Zeveron
Destructive Influence
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Posted - 2009.10.12 06:14:00 -
[638]
Originally by: Dianabolic
I do indeed see that shield users would like it not to work like this, I just don't think it would balance out against armour if it did.
It COULD take 2h, but if you were an armour tanker it would NEVER regen.
Dian you know how much I would like to suicide my ship even under your own command. But I would like to suicide it under the same terms with armor tanked titans.
Armor tankers have: 1. Slave set 2. Instant titan bonus 3. Module whith % bonus 4. They can fit 3x bost/rep mods, w/o any fitting changes.
Since buffer gona be more important than ever, the hole situation is gona be inbalanced in favor of the armor tankers. ________________________________________________
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HeliosGal
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Posted - 2009.10.12 06:25:00 -
[639]
so whats needed now is a new range of uber shield tank implants just for capital ship pilots ( can see it being a subfaction and a good idea to)
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TheCraftyHippo
Minmatar Red Federation
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Posted - 2009.10.12 06:37:00 -
[640]
Has anybody else noticed that current game mechanics simply do not work with the ridiculously huge hitpoints supercaps have?
The problems manifested by the sheer size of the hitpoint buffers are kinda funny. I'm expecting the solutions to be even funnier.
All this so we can insta pop capitals. CCP is worse than the Minmitar when it comes to using duct tape to patch up their ****. ___________
Please don't shoot me. I'll explode. |

Rip Minner
Gallente Freewind Ventures
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Posted - 2009.10.12 06:37:00 -
[641]
Ya I dont know why they dont just have to shields insta full with bounses just like armor. Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here. |

Ryan Coolness
The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.10.12 10:49:00 -
[642]
Originally by: Zeveron
Armor tankers have: 1. Slave set 2. Instant titan bonus 3. Module whith % bonus 4. They can fit 3x bost/rep mods, w/o any fitting changes.
to 1. yes indeed and that is quite balanced to make up for the advantages shield tankers have, see below
to 2. not a capital specific problem but a game mechanic problem: shield hp due to gang bonuses should be insta-filled just like armor is, it just should be fixed but doesnt qualify as an argument as it is just broken mechanics not a balance decision imho
to 3. Suppose you mean the Regenerative Platings? see down below under d), nuff said
to 4. pretty sure that shield tanked ships can fit 2 active tank mods which will be far superior to 3 active tank mods on the armor side also as you rightly said buffer is more relevant so why exactly would that matter anyway? anyone fitting mulitple tank mods on a supercap post dominion is a moron imho
Shield tankers have:
a) 37.5% faction omni hardeners that can be overloaded and are easily and cheaply available from LP shops, already surpassing anything avaiable for armor in that regard (better then top deadspace and even officer equivalent for armor with max skills)
b) up to 50% officer omni hardeners that by far surpass anything available for armor and again can even be overloaded
c) passive recharge, which becomes even more relevant once the HP changes hit, shield tankers can just idle and watch their hp grow back, armor tankers need specific fits to switch into and/or a support fleet to rep them up
d) mods that increase the shield hp, passive reacharge, cap amount and cap regeneration, all in one module (this one alone makes up for the slave set already hands down)
e) ability to fit damage mods without compromising their tank much, quite nice on titans with the new gun damage bonus
So it can be clearly seen that the only advantage armor tanking caps really have going for them is in fact the slave set, take that away and you overpower shield tankers even more.
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xttz
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.10.12 10:57:00 -
[643]
Those of you complaining about shield tanks vs slave sets are clearly forgetting a few key facts.
1) Shield HP on supercaps was massively increased, yet the shield regen time was not altered to compensate (yet). As it stands now, an average officer tank with a few PDS can yield a very significant passive tank. A Levi and Wyvern can very easily break 5-10k dps at peak shield regen by having good resists, just passively. That's before their resist advantage over armour helps with remote reps (see next point).
2) The entire method of shield tanking has an inherent advantage over armour tanking on certain ships, mostly supercaps. Armour tanks are restricted to low slots and rigs. Titans will also have to trade off low-slots for damage mods, thus weakening their tank. EANMs give relatively low passive resists compared to active invulns and cannot be overheated. Invulnerability fields give a far higher uniform resist bonus that can be overheated when needed. Shield tanks can run from rigs, low and med slots giving far more scope for tank.
Please keep in mind that when testing on SiSi, you should be testing in the context of how that ship is used on TQ. Undocking a titan with a standard T2 fit because thats all the market gives you is not a reasonable basis, when very few of these ships will be used with a pure T2 fit (and those that are probably deserve to explode).
And to prove my point, here is a reasonable Leviathan fit capable of the following:
Almost 10k DPS to 150km 54.4m EHP (more than the standard armour-tanking titan with damage mods) Almost 5k dps passive tank Average 90% resists, giving huge advantage when recieving remote reps. Each capital shield transporter adds 3.5k dps tanked. http://img.waffleimages.com/875547791e2617ca37a989ead4674a91fadacd1a/domlev.png
Note that this doesn't even include shield resist gang bonuses or the best possible officer mods.
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Adam Ridgway
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.10.12 12:09:00 -
[644]
Ok so let's forget implants, but what about instant bonus instead of having to rep the whole buff? Not unreasonably.
Is more about being to jump on fight inmediatlly rather than having to rep yourself for a while. If you see an Avatar and a Leviathan jump on grid, who would you primary? Assuming gang boni etc. the reasonable option would be Leviathan as it does not have their extra buffer repped, and that's gonna help a big deal.
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Silvero
Gallente Black Nova Corp IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.12 12:40:00 -
[645]
Have to agree with Ryan and xttz regarding the armor vs shield.
Saw something about removing the insurance for supercapitals, is this to stimulate the owners to use em more frequently ?
If this is on the agenda then i say remove insurance in 0.0 totally regardless of shiptype, no insurance company, driven by profits whould ever insure a ship in 0.0
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Silvero
Gallente Black Nova Corp IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.12 13:14:00 -
[646]
And i think we still need a scripted DD for AOE, like 30km radius doing 1k/dps over 30 sec or whatever damage that is nessesary to kill a fighterbomber in 5-10 sec or a hic in 10-20 sec. Same ROF as the DD one shoot thingy, so if the SC pilot aren't watching he looses his teeths. Becuase being chewed to death by a single SC dosen't sound appealing, escpessialy when you are sitting in the mightiest ship in game and can't even scratch the paint of that SC. And it can also come in handy when trying to get rid of the pessky hic's, so the hic pilots need to work togheter and dip in and out of the danger area during times when the scripted DD AOE weapon is used.
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Zeveron
Destructive Influence
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Posted - 2009.10.12 13:19:00 -
[647]
If ccp comes overhere and says that armor vs shield on titans is balanced for that and that reason, I ll stop complaining. Testing imaginary setups on eft dont counts though.
Quote: http://img.waffleimages.com/875547791e2617ca37a989ead4674a91fadacd1a/domlev.png
this fitting costs more than 60b and not every1 has a moon miner to build/fit his titan :-) Why not estamels invs? You could make a better setup using those :-) This setup has no cap recharge, no active tank. I bet an erebus can have those ehps (maybe more) with a slave set, with instant titan bonus and with some cap recharge and repair on his own. ________________________________________________
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HeliosGal
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Posted - 2009.10.12 13:24:00 -
[648]
drop rates of teh shield implants and extenders perhaps could be boosted to benefit shield tanking capital pilots
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Yaay
Game-Over
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Posted - 2009.10.12 15:02:00 -
[649]
Originally by: HeliosGal drop rates of teh shield implants and extenders perhaps could be boosted to benefit shield tanking capital pilots
Probably the simplest solution is to give a 50% effectiveness to crystal implants on shield boosters. Shield boosting capitals can already get crazy tanks, so 50% more shouldn't really skew that too much. But to get the full effect of crystals or to give a % bonus to shield cap is a bad idea IMO.
People keep forgetting that shields get a natural regen, they get higher average resist, they have a 2ndary buffer from armor that armor does not have to rely on to get repaired. Shields also get a boost from every PDS they fit, and a have extra lows they can fit damage gear on that weaken an armor tankers potential.
The Bonus issue I get. I've never liked it myself and I think that part of the argument needs to be fixed. But the slave Issue is really not a factor. Either you're going to die really fast, or you're going to die slowly. If you die slowly, Shield boosters have way more impact than armor tanks. It's just the trade off of platforms.
When someone can show me how you can build an armor tank at whatever cost that gives 40-80k dps tank even for a short burst, or even something over 12k, dps tank, then I'll really feel the slave argument is valid.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |

Serena Ku
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.10.12 19:54:00 -
[650]
Originally by: Zeveron
This setup has no cap recharge, no active tank.
Active reps are pretty much useless with the new figures; buffer tank and triage carriers are the way to go.
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something somethingdark
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Posted - 2009.10.13 03:22:00 -
[651]
Edited by: something somethingdark on 13/10/2009 03:22:56
Originally by: xttz
http://img.waffleimages.com/875547791e2617ca37a989ead4674a91fadacd1a/domlev.png
weapon fit = comedy fit
officer hardeners (not invul obviously)... hint : pith x-type at the price of even 1 of those invul fields i can buy 7ish dreads who combined easily outperform that titan big alliances (such as yours) should have no problem finding spare cap pilots who dont own caps ....
i also dont see a portal a cloak and a smartbomb on there
so its essentialy a dread that could warp out at any time ... if cap fleets wouldnt usualy get bubbled in fights ....
a 100+bil dread
..... .... ... .. . .
yeah right
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Zeveron
Destructive Influence
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Posted - 2009.10.13 06:18:00 -
[652]
Quote: When someone can show me how you can build an armor tank at whatever cost that gives 40-80k dps tank even for a short burst, or even something over 12k, dps tank, then I'll really feel the slave argument is valid.
Yaay, you talking while overheated here right? You can overheat for 2 mins b4 your booster goes poof. How much you gona boost during those 2 mins. And after those 2 mins (a bit more, the hardeners last a bit longer) you have no tank and you are depending on external help. Posting extreme situations or imaginary setups, is not good for a discussion.
Armor tankers have an 8% implant and slave set which shield tankers dont have. They also got instant titan bonus, while shield tankers have to boost 37.5% each time they login or change system. Take my boost over time away and give me 20m ehps instant and I am gona be ok. ________________________________________________
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Zeveron
Destructive Influence
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Posted - 2009.10.13 06:25:00 -
[653]
Quote: Active reps are pretty much useless with the new figures; buffer tank and triage carriers are the way to go.
Yeah bcs each time you login you have an army of triage carriers on your side. And when you have to make 2-3 jumps its gona last 30 mins till you get up to 71%. And a hint for you: No capacitor no resists, no tank. And neutralizers gona be used more than today for super capital killing after dominion ________________________________________________
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Twelve Jackals
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.10.13 06:26:00 -
[654]
Originally by: something somethingdark Edited by: something somethingdark on 13/10/2009 03:22:56
Originally by: xttz
http://img.waffleimages.com/875547791e2617ca37a989ead4674a91fadacd1a/domlev.png
weapon fit = comedy fit
officer hardeners (not invul obviously)... hint : pith x-type at the price of even 1 of those invul fields i can buy 7ish dreads who combined easily outperform that titan big alliances (such as yours) should have no problem finding spare cap pilots who dont own caps ....
i also dont see a portal a cloak and a smartbomb on there
so its essentialy a dread that could warp out at any time ... if cap fleets wouldnt usualy get bubbled in fights ....
a 100+bil dread
..... .... ... .. . .
yeah right
Sel should make it so that all titans do the dps they currently do with just 4 weapons so you can actually fit them reasonable.
7 guns + dd = comedy fit indeed
4 guns (with effective dps of 7) + dd + cloak + portal/smartbomb + smartbomb = much better
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Serena Ku
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.10.13 08:21:00 -
[655]
Edited by: Serena Ku on 13/10/2009 08:26:18 Edited by: Serena Ku on 13/10/2009 08:22:41
Originally by: something somethingdark Edited by: something somethingdark on 13/10/2009 03:22:56
Originally by: xttz
http://img.waffleimages.com/875547791e2617ca37a989ead4674a91fadacd1a/domlev.png
weapon fit = comedy fit
officer hardeners (not invul obviously)... hint : pith x-type at the price of even 1 of those invul fields i can buy 7ish dreads who combined easily outperform that titan big alliances (such as yours) should have no problem finding spare cap pilots who dont own caps ....
i also dont see a portal a cloak and a smartbomb on there
so its essentialy a dread that could warp out at any time ... if cap fleets wouldnt usualy get bubbled in fights ....
a 100+bil dread
..... .... ... .. . .
yeah right
So... a strong alliance with a few titans in fleet all needs a Jump Portal generator? Or how does cloaking helps in a fleet fight when CCP intends them to stay around and fight? Or... I'll stop right there. 
However you have a point of running out of highslots for a more varied highslot utility layout; just we got to adapt for the situation at hand, or depend on carriers during combat for quick refitting. Boosting the turret/launcher damage bonuses even further to potentially free up valuable highslots for other modules is fine with me too.
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Serena Ku
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.10.13 08:33:00 -
[656]
Edited by: Serena Ku on 13/10/2009 08:35:32
Originally by: Zeveron
Quote: Active reps are pretty much useless with the new figures; buffer tank and triage carriers are the way to go.
Yeah bcs each time you login you have an army of triage carriers on your side. And when you have to make 2-3 jumps its gona last 30 mins till you get up to 71%. And a hint for you: No capacitor no resists, no tank. And neutralizers gona be used more than today for super capital killing after dominion
Hint for you: I was thinking of armor tanking supercaps (no I don't believe in lolHybrid tank fits)
I have no flying experience in shield tanking supercaps but I can see your point.
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xttz
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.10.13 08:35:00 -
[657]
Originally by: something somethingdark weapon fit = comedy fit
I know more titan pilots (including myself) who will be fitting pure weapon setups post-patch than ones who won't.
Originally by: something somethingdark officer hardeners (not invul obviously)... hint : pith x-type at the price of even 1 of those invul fields i can buy 7ish dreads who combined easily outperform that titan big alliances (such as yours) should have no problem finding spare cap pilots who dont own caps ....
Admittedly I misjudged the tank. I've always flown armour-tanking caps so I wasn't aware Vepas were quite that expensive. However replacing the mods with DG or Kaikka versions still proves my point. Leviathans can still get comparable EHP to an armour tanking titan at a similar cost to an X-Type tank, slave set, and the officer cap rechargers needed to make their weapons cap stable above 71%. DPS is comparable on the Lev, with a far increased basic range, and there's far less reliance on cap stability to keep guns firing.
Originally by: something somethingdark i also dont see a portal a cloak and a smartbomb on there
Why would you fit a cloak? It's not like you'd be firing off an AoE doomsday then warping off to a safespot. Titans have been changed to ships that need to remain on grid and lock targets to be effective. A cloak only serves to reduce dps and penalise lock time. There's no reason for a jump portal to be fitted permanently. They're not needed during fights, and outside a battle it's quite simple to replace a gun for one from the sizable CHA. I don't know any titan pilot without a carrier alt. Smartbombs are debatable. Titans no longer have the 'omg get out now' factor as before Dominion. As I said, they're meant to be commited in order to win to a fight, which typically means staying around until the field is clear. In either case, there's no reason for titans to be capable nor expected to clear dictors off themselves alone. That's what a support fleet is for, and personally I'm pleased to see titans changed from winning 'fights' solo to actually needing supporting ships. Turret dreads do still have a utility slot for a JPG, smartbomb, gang link, or whatever. I'm not sure why CCP decided the Levi needed 7 launchers rather than 6 with a higher damage bonus, but I guess thats up to Seleene to explain.
Originally by: something somethingdark so its essentialy a dread that could warp out at any time ... if cap fleets wouldnt usualy get bubbled in fights ....
Is this some kind of misguided strawman? You just raised a point I never mentioned only to argue it down yourself.
Originally by: something somethingdark A 100+bil dread. yeah right
Thats not right. Titans are better compared to being a 50bn-100bn mobile pos now. They have the same EHP, the same dps and similar tracking, while providing CHA and SMA facilities for the fleet.
--
Also I can't help but wonder why everyone who does not understand the basic mechanics of caps and supercaps also does not understand basic literacy. It seems every post based on some logical fallacy or a personal bias is also spread across 4 times the needed number of lines with no punctuation and terrible spelling. Just something that crossed my mind.
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Zeveron
Destructive Influence
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Posted - 2009.10.13 11:34:00 -
[658]
Ok lets talk with some numbers then. A leviathan with 4x pdus has +20% shield, 5% (standard implant) and a 37.5% bonus to be boosted. An erebus/avatar (with erebus bonus) has 33% (slaves) + 8% (named implant) + 5% (standard implant) and 37.5% instant erebus bonus.
Thats a 21% more w/o gimping any fitting. Thats a lot of ehps (I am not gona post exact numbers, bcs I dont know and dont have the time to test which bonus/mod gets added first).
Add to that the cpu issue and you gona see how a ship can be broken :-) ________________________________________________
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something somethingdark
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Posted - 2009.10.13 12:01:00 -
[659]
Originally by: xttz
Also I can't help but wonder why everyone who does not understand the basic mechanics of caps and supercaps also does not understand basic literacy. It seems every post based on some logical fallacy or a personal bias is also spread across 4 times the needed number of lines with no punctuation and terrible spelling. Just something that crossed my mind.
My apologies, I was unaware that proper punctuation and spelling are a basic prerequisite of having a civilized discussion with a member of GoonSwarm. In this new light of civilized discussing, many if not all your arguments are easily countered or refuted. I do acknowledge your argument about TitanÆs now being comparable to a mobile POS, if bumping, among other things, was not still an issue. I offer my apologies if that has changed recently, it has been a while since IÆve actively used SuperCap.
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Yaay
Game-Over
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Posted - 2009.10.13 18:37:00 -
[660]
Edited by: Yaay on 13/10/2009 18:38:20
Originally by: Zeveron Edited by: Zeveron on 13/10/2009 11:54:25 Ok lets talk with some numbers then. A leviathan with 4x pdus has +20% shield, 5% (standard implant) and a 37.5% bonus to be boosted. An erebus/avatar (with erebus bonus) has 33% (slaves) + 8% (named implant) and 37.5% instant erebus bonus.
Thats a 18-20% more w/o gimping any fitting. Thats a lot of ehps (I am not gona post exact numbers, bcs I dont know and dont have the time to test which bonus/mod gets added first).
EDIT: 5% and 8% implant are on the same slot so its only 3% in favor of armor tankers :-)
Add to that the cpu issue and you gona see how a ship can be broken :-)
But those numbers are made up for by the easy ability to tank more damage with a shield setup. A triple rep avatar with most expensive faction gear gets about 12k overheated tank w/o boosters.
A average officer fit leviathan can go over 18 w/o boosters, and really pimped can go way higher. And the higher that number goes, the more impact the boosters have as well.
I'm not going back over the numbers, but to answer your question on heat. Overheating 1 officer Invul can last for 10 min on the rack. It can add a huge ammount more tank. You can't overheat armor mods for ****.
Again it comes down to the question, is the titan gonna insta pop, or is it going to take a while to break. The longer it takes to kill a titan, the more repping matters.
Armor titans get the advantage for about the first 3-5 minutes of damage. Shields get the advantage after that. Sounds pretty fair.
I totally agree with you on CPU though, it needs adjusting badly, either on the mods, or on the ships.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
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