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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.10.29 08:05:00 -
[61]
I'm just going to chime in to join the "because 24h is all you need" side.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Gsptlsnz
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Posted - 2009.10.29 08:17:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 29/10/2009 08:21:25
 Originally by: mechtech
I've heard CCP talk about this before.
Quite simply, they want people to have to log in to change their skills. CCP believes that having people log in to change skills can make people more involved in the game, because when they log in they might get a convo from a friend, or get an eve-mail that causes them to play a little bit.
This is like the special chemistry used in cigarettes to make the tobacco more addictive. MMO's include annoying stuff ike this because the developers like to pretend they are providing a environment like old-style Dungeons and Dragons.
Only a tiny minority rolePlay in EvE. These limitations (the 24-hour Skill Queue is just one of many) are just pointless annoyances for the majority.
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Kanuo Ashkeron
Wormhole supervisory and Investigation team
Blanket Men
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Posted - 2009.10.29 08:28:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Becq Starforged
Your skill queue is only limited to 24 hours? Gosh, I've put skills adding up to three weeks and more in mine...
The 'problem' that they solved by adding the queue was that many players cannot log in at any arbitrary point during the day to change skills, which made, for example, 12 hour skills basically impossible to manage without losing training time. One proposed suggestion that was very popular was a two-skill queue, allowing players to back up a 'short' skill with a 'long' skill to avoid training time loss. CCP very generously took this one step further by allowing us to queue up just less than a full 24 hours worth of short skills followed by a long skill. Since most humans lives revolve around daily cycles, this makes a lot of sense, giving maximum flexibility for active players while limiting abuses of the system by largely inactive players (or inactive accounts).
This was a great change.
So if you have several 'days' worth of short skills to train, here's how you do it:
1) Pick out a long skill (more than a day or two, or longer if you don't log on frequently).
2) Queue up about a days worth of skills, with the long skill at the end.
3) Go to sleep, to work, etc. Log in the next night (or the night after, or the week after, as time allows).
4) Add in another days worth of skills in front of your long skill.
5) Live life, etc.
Repeat as often as necessary. Eventually you will have trained not only that pile of short skills, but a long skill too! And it only requires about 5 minutes per day's worth of short skills, and can be spread out with days or weeks between logins without losing training time.
This. And no, if you want to train hundreds of short skills you should login every day or two. Period.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.10.29 08:34:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Gsptlsnz
Only a tiny minority rolePlay in EvE.
What does that have to do with anything?
Quote:
These limitations (the 24-hour Skill Queue is just one of many) are just pointless annoyances for the majority.
Doubtful, but please prove it.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Gsptlsnz
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Posted - 2009.10.29 08:52:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 29/10/2009 08:54:24
@Tippia
Anything which reduces player efficiency or wastes player time is "bad" for the player. Of course, the game designers can choose to prescribe "correct play". MMORPG have "role-playing" in the name for historical reasons. "RP" or "realism" is often used as a justification for game characteristics (like the old "warp to someplace near the jumpgate" thing) which are changed because they don't work well in practice. EvE is a gane. Its lowSpeed physics is most like a submarine in very deep water. So lets not think too deeply on realism.
So - what happens when the majority of players believe something "realistic" (e.g. every rookies' 30-45 minute trip to Arnon /lol) is just a PITA? Should role-play considerations dominate? Should there be some definition of "EvE reality" which controls how game features are implemented?
There is no harmful effect on others if some players queue up skills for the next 10 years. Some people *want* this. Others, who want to do things differently, can still limit themselves to 24 hours. So the arguments against are either "role play" or "we are so weak-minded that when longer queues are available we *must* use them".
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2009.10.29 09:05:00 -
[66]
Seeing as I was around for years where I had to time the skill completion as there was no queue, I'm quite happy with just the 24h one. More is not needed imo, we did fine without the queue, so I am confident we do even better with the 24h queue.
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Serpents smile
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Posted - 2009.10.29 09:15:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Chribba
Seeing as I was around for years where I had to time the skill completion as there was no queue, I'm quite happy with just the 24h one. More is not needed imo, we did fine without the queue, so I am confident we do even better with the 24h queue.
Almost this. Just be happy we got one as it is, the hours I lost when we didn't had one still make me weep. 
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Jekyl Eraser
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Posted - 2009.10.29 09:29:00 -
[68]
You should have unlimited skillque. Players have to use external programs to manage the skills.
Only reason i can think of that speaks for limited skill ques is that the effort and stress of having the kill training constantly, increases the SP value in your mind. Effort = value. But if you wanted to have SP some effort, you'd only get sp for killing 10 rats and bringing their tails back to the agent.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2009.10.29 09:38:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Verone
Originally by: Kuolematon
Why can't I have skill queue reaching as far as 96h or even beyond? Even 72h would be nice. Explain to me why it's limited to 24h and DON'T give me some lazy ass explanation about "character farming" or "not playing game" - I have done skill training for last 3 years and playing this game not very actively. so thats not the real reason for 24h queue.
You might think it's a crap excuse, the majority of other people don't.
Its a valid concern to CCP that people will sit AFK training and do nothing in Eve. The same concern is probably why they disabled ghost training as well. I'm all for it, people should log in and play, not sit AFK constantly skillpoint farming. Making the process automated would just further the problem.
To be honest, you're one of a tiny minority whining and bleating about this when you should be happy that you even have a 24 hour queue.
Bit Harsh There
SKUNK
(o)
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Alfred Lichtenstein
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Posted - 2009.10.29 09:56:00 -
[70]
Er......
I think there is one large concern to all those saying you have to log in or skill farming to build a character.
You have to pay to play, or not to play.
I like eve because I dont have to play to get better cause of the levelling I don't feel guilty for not playing for this reason!
Bottom line I pay my 12.99 a month if I want a ten year skill cue and not want to log in what sweat is that off ccp's back?
some of us have jobs, families and women (men) who want to sleep with us rather than just being friends!!!!
thats called RL or real life I am not gaining anything from having a constant offline skill cue thats as i see it what my 12.99 a month pays for me skilling so forcing me to log in is simply totally annoying.
if someone wants to character mine for a year and pay up 12.99 a month or several hours earning the isk to buy a GTC every month then as I see it they have earnt it.
oh and those people saying put titan V on at the end of your skill cue need to remember that sometimes you haven't learnt titan IV yet (or any other long skill)
this happened to me this year when I got married I wanted battleship V but only had 2 days on amarr battleship IV (and that was trying to time it perfect)
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.10.29 09:59:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Tippia on 29/10/2009 10:06:08
Originally by: Gsptlsnz
Anything which reduces player efficiency or wastes player time is "bad" for the player. Of course, the game designers can choose to prescribe "correct play". MMORPG have "role-playing" in the name for historical reasons. "RP" or "realism" is often used as a justification for game characteristics (like the old "warp to someplace near the jumpgate" thing) which are changed because they don't work well in practice. EvE is a gane. Its lowSpeed physics is most like a submarine in very deep water. So lets not think too deeply on realism.
So - what happens when the majority of players believe something "realistic" (e.g. every rookies' 30-45 minute trip to Arnon /lol) is just a PITA? Should role-play considerations dominate? Should there be some definition of "EvE reality" which controls how game features are implemented?
Again: what does any of this have to do with the skill queue? The old arguments against having it at all and the arguments against limiting it to 24h have never been expressed in terms of RP or realism, but in terms of "we want you to log in." You're constructing a huge straw man here.
Quote:
So the arguments against are either "role play" or "we are so weak-minded that when longer queues are available we *must* use them".
Incorrect. The argument against it is, and always has been: they want you to log in and play the game.
The argument for limiting it to 24h is the same, only now they've actually made that argument even stronger: instead of having to log in at wierd hours or juggle half-finished skills, you can not log in at your convenience — i.e. at a time of day where you're more likely to stick around and play (you know, the actual reason behind not letting training be a completely AFK affair). Unless the Earth gets whacked out of alignment, there's no reason to ever change the queue length because 24h is all that's needed to let you access the time of day that suits you best. The reason hasn't changed, only been strengthened.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Dr Karsun
Gallente
HUSARIA
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Posted - 2009.10.29 10:00:00 -
[72]
Sir... We didn't have a skill que ever before, this one is perfect, solved all the problems one would ever have, sure you can make a 365 day skill que, it's not a scripting problem, but then farming characters would become a normal thing and CCP tries to fight it and imo they are doing it pretty well, still keeping the player experiance really at the top level with skill training.
Making custom signatures and banners - check my in-game bio for details!
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Gsptlsnz
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Posted - 2009.10.29 10:10:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 29/10/2009 10:10:57
CCP 1: "we want you to log in"
Why not CCP 2: "we want you to pay a monthly fee, to participate any way you like"
There's no objective logic behind the first one. Character sales for ISK are legal and encouraged, so it isn't that. What is it then? Do EvE players 'like* CCP telling them how to play their game? RP? Democracy? - maybe we should have a player vote on removing highSec (Or lowSec) from the game?
There has to be *some* reason CCP prefers (1) over (2).
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FarosWarrior
Amarr
Sonnema
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Posted - 2009.10.29 10:11:00 -
[74]
I always like it that the people that whine the most about the 24hr skillqueue are mostly people that have played eve since long before that. Would you want CCP to completely kill the queue so that we get put back pre-apocrypha? I know for a fact that I wouldn't want that to happen.
24hrs is more then enough, just throw short skills in first and after 23hrs and 59 minutes throw in a big skill.
thats how I train my alt anyway
cheers, Faros
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.10.29 10:16:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Tippia on 29/10/2009 10:16:19
Originally by: Gsptlsnz
There's no objective logic behind the first one.
Yes there is. The more people log in, the better the game is.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Gsptlsnz
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Posted - 2009.10.29 10:55:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Gsptlsnz
There's no objective logic behind the first one.
Yes there is. The more people log in, the better the game is.
I'm not convinced this is true. I've seen a lot of claims that things were better when there were fewer players. And regardless of what others think, I can't believe that tricking people into logging on and playing more than they planned to is good for the players who are so fooled. See my earlier comparison to another industry that preys on human weaknesses.
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Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.10.29 10:59:00 -
[77]
For a while I wanted the skill queue to be longer, but there's the question as already mentioned of "how long is long enough?". Make it 48h and people will want 72h, make it 72h and people will want 96h etc.
There's usually always some long-ass skill that you eventually want to train that you can just stick on the end of the queue with the stuff you actually want to train now at the front. That way if you do end up being away longer than a day then you're still being productive in training the long skill.
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Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2009.10.29 11:02:00 -
[78]
they could add a high rank skill that adds one day per level trained in learning for skill que.
Pre-order your Sisters of ≡v≡ Exploration ship today, Updated 11OCT09
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Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.10.29 11:16:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Nova Fox
they could add a high rank skill that adds one day per level trained in learning for skill que.
Sorry, but No. It would just become another "must get asap" skill like learnings.
_____________________________________
Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout
:facepalm:
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.10.29 11:35:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Gsptlsnz
I'm not convinced this is true.
So? It doesn't have to.
You wanted to know why they limited the queue and why they were against it to begin with. You've had that answered.
You wanted to know the logic behind it, and now you do.
If you take issue with these explanations for some fuzzy ethical reasons then that's your problem.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
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Wideen
Total Mayhem.
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2009.10.29 11:58:00 -
[81]
you have to include something concerning CCP profit, like power of 2 etc, if you want an official CCP reply, I'm serious
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Rosolo Refili
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Posted - 2009.10.29 12:11:00 -
[82]
It's profit pure and simple if you set up a cue for six years and then went away and went on holiday or something come back a month later and don't play the game but simply skill up eventually you will quit cause you think having a few bits change on a game you never play isn't worth subscription!
there is the answer!
everything this game does it to network and keep you in game sometimes you'll be diseffective with eve then you will log on and see an eve mail about an alliance op and get back into it!
long log off equals more discontinued subscriptions!
end of!
people forget one thing CCP is a company and they need to make money esp in iceland :P
I don't blame them for it cause its a good game and afk skillers pays for my game to be better
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Spurty
Caldari
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.10.29 12:30:00 -
[83]
12hours is good enough for me to make sure I don't have to do an alarm clock skill change.
I certainly wasn't planning on 'PLAYING' EVE at 3am, so missing having to sneak off from being in bed with the Mrs at 3am just to change skills does nothing but 'keep' me playing the game.
As for longer than 24 hours, you fail to understand part of the game is the tactical and timely selection of skills.
Wish such a thing existed in 'other' mmos tbh. I might pick up a second mmo if that was the case, however Left For Dead 2 demo is out .. this will have to do ;0
Originally by: Machine Delta
When making a point, anyone taking it should consider the source.
pretty deep coming from you |
Caldari Citizen4714
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Posted - 2009.10.29 14:00:00 -
[84]
Originally by: mechtech
I've heard CCP talk about this before.
Quite simply, they want people to have to log in to change their skills. CCP believes that having people log in to change skills can make people more involved in the game, because when they log in they might get a convo from a friend, or get an eve-mail that causes them to play a little bit.
Wanting them to play won't make them play. All it does is frustrate and irritate them.
I want CCP to get off their asses and fix the UI, but that doesn't make them do it either.
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Support DISBANDING the Alliance CCP Renamed at the Alliance's Request |
Caldari Citizen4714
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Posted - 2009.10.29 14:19:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Taedrin
There are two reasons.
1) To force people to log in. Many people log in with the intent to just change their skills - but end up staying on longer to do other things that catch their attention. Without the skill changing, they wouldn't log on at all.
2) To prevent people from farming characters and selling them on ebay. Imagine if people were able to queue up a capital-ready skill plan and not have to log on for a year.
Both of these have been debunked to death.
Forcing players to log in doesn't work for two reasons: One, sometimes they cannot. It's not a matter of not wanting to play, it's a matter of not being near a computer with an internet connection. Two, you can't force people to enjoy something. They'll either log in to play, or not. Making them log in simply doesn't work. It irritates them and frustrates them. Nothing more.
Do you really think that the lack of a skill queue stops people from farming characters for real money? It's a job, and they're doing to do it anyway.
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Support DISBANDING the Alliance CCP Renamed at the Alliance's Request |
Isurus Paucus
Omicron Resource Technologies Limited
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Posted - 2009.10.29 14:21:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Gsptlsnz
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Gsptlsnz
There's no objective logic behind the first one.
Yes there is. The more people log in, the better the game is.
I'm not convinced this is true. I've seen a lot of claims that things were better when there were fewer players. And regardless of what others think, I can't believe that tricking people into logging on and playing more than they planned to is good for the players who are so fooled. See my earlier comparison to another industry that preys on human weaknesses.
First, go take a basic marketing class, preferably one that covers customer contact points, and come back and say there is no objective reasoning behind a 24 hour queue. It is good business to have regular contact with your customers as it reminds them that you exist and if done properly, helps reinforce their desire to continue to pay you. For CCP, a 24-hour queue is just about right as it reduces customer frustration, but gives their subscribers a reason to log in every so often.
Also, claiming majority does not make it so, and besides, even if (and I use 'if' most strongly) there was a majority consensus that such a change was better, it would not make it the correct thing for CCP to do. (reference "Fallacy of Majority")
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KaarBaak
Minmatar
Squirrel Team
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Posted - 2009.10.29 14:22:00 -
[87]
It seems the people requesting the extension of the queue are ignoring the actual reason that CCP implemented the queue in the first place. Tippia has explained it quite well.
The queue was added so that people would not have to get up at odd hours simply to start their next skill training. It had nothing to do allowing players to map out extended training plans.
CCP resisted the queue for a long time, but were finally convinced with regard to the argument above. They were implementing it to avoid 'alarm clock training.' 24-hrs accomodates that perfectly.
CCP fixed the problem. People desiring a longer queue are raising an entirely new issue unrelated to why the queue was created in the first place.
KB
KB
Beware the beast Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport or lust or greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. |
Caldari Citizen4714
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Posted - 2009.10.29 14:24:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Chribba
Seeing as I was around for years where I had to time the skill completion as there was no queue, I'm quite happy with just the 24h one. More is not needed imo, we did fine without the queue, so I am confident we do even better with the 24h queue.
I've been kickin' it since 2005 myself, and I'm very grateful for the queue that we do have now.
But...just because the current solution is 90%, or even 95% adequate doesn't mean we should stop trying to improve it to the point that we can all say it's "awesome", and have no complaints about it.
The only time I ever aimed for mediocrity was finals in college where I knew in advance that the best possible score still wouldn't increase my GPA, so I didn't waste the time studying. In this situation it's possible to further improve the skill queue, so we're not done, and won't be until it's perfect.
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Support DISBANDING the Alliance CCP Renamed at the Alliance's Request |
Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.10.29 15:19:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Tippia on 29/10/2009 15:19:32
Originally by: Caldari Citizen4714
But...just because the current solution is 90%, or even 95% adequate doesn't mean we should stop trying to improve it to the point that we can all say it's "awesome", and have no complaints about it.
The thing is, the current solution is 100% adequate for the problem it tries to solve, so what is there to improve? You're asking it to solve a completely different problem that CCP (and quite a large number of players) don't perceive as a problem at all, so if you feel it doesn't live up to your expectations, then it's because those expectations are flawed — not the solution.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Stupid McStupidson
Gallente
Hoek Lyne and Sinker
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Posted - 2009.10.29 16:07:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
You're looking at this bass ackwards. The queue is in place to handle skill changes, not skill training. Before the queue skill training would often end during downtime, or while you were at work, or sleeping. The queue lets you avoid that issue.
All it does and all it's intended to do is let you switch skills that end at an inconvenient time of day. Since 24hrs covers the complete spectrum of times of day that's all you "need" and all you're ever gonna get. (In fact, we don't even need a queue at all. We got along just fine without it.)
And, just a word of advice, anytime you say "Explain to me" and then go on to show that you already know the the explanations (by listing them in the same sentence, ffs) all the rest of us hear is a high-pitched whine.
QFT
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