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Jessica Fyers Gallente Azure Horizon	Posted - 2009.11.03 18:41:00 - [31] I have only been 'visited' in a mission once in Aunia; tho it was just a guy trying to bait me into attacking him so his mates (which btw warped in anyway), could pop my Golem. Epic Fail on thier part. The interesting thing is. oftentimes i dont bother with salvaging, and offer ppl the chance to come pick salvage and loot, or just salvage if they think i'll exercise killrights for agro... none accepts! Shooting wrecks is lame, i'd have done another mission by the time i popped the last one - besides, when i actually want to salvage, i hop in a marauder. Oh and for heaven's sake: CCP's position has been made clear as day; wrecks belong to the one to reach/salvage them first, not the one who popped the npc!!!! ---------------------------------------------- Some people say you should fight fire with fire... Nonsense of course; you should fight everything with fire!
Domoso	Posted - 2009.11.03 23:40:00 - [32] Shoot the wrecks, don't shoot the wrecks. It makes little difference. A good salvager has more than one mission site scoped out.
Takh Meir'noen Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2009.11.03 23:47:00 - [33] Edited by: Takh Meir''noen on 03/11/2009 23:48:34 I can never tell what people mean when they say they got ninja'd anyway. Ninja-LOOT-ing is stealing--and you get flagged accordingly. Ninja-SALVAGE-ing is not stealing--not anymore than mining the same asteroid as someone else. That's a fact, because you get flagged for stealing, and neither salvaging, or mining an asteroid flags you. When I'm out and about in my salvager, I advise Local that I'm prospecting for salvage, and if anyone wants to invite me I'll just salvage their wrecks. But I also give warning that if I find wrecks I'm going to salvage them--I'm trying to make a living. I'm not there to loot, and I'm not trying to get kill-rights on carebears. But if you see my interceptor pop into your deadspace, feel free to shoot your wrecks, it's your right. I wasn't going to touch the loot and stated as much, but I have every intention of salvaging every last one of them, no different than if we entered the same asteroid field in hi-sec in miners. The only person I've really seen get upset was this guy in a Hyperion that kept recalling his drones and warping out of the mission to transfer aggro to me. I would just turn on my cloak and wait for him to come back, then resume. The third time he screwed up and warped without his drones and got mad at ME. Sheesh. (I also offer 10% of my take when tagging along with someone.)
SCGhozt	Posted - 2009.11.04 01:14:00 - [34] u guys know what there is nothing that **es me off more then ninja salvaging. i dont hate the ninjas really even though i think if u are one u are a a hole. but ccp has just been very lazy to fix that bug, thats right a bug. so they are not my wrecks people say? then try and shoot them yourself? heck eve if u are grouped together with another player u cant shoot his wrecks. no matter how much u complain ccp will not fix this so bleh i'm just wasting time typing.....
Dacryphile	Posted - 2009.11.04 02:24:00 - [35] Originally by: SCGhozt u guys know what there is nothing that **es me off more then ninja salvaging. i dont hate the ninjas really even though i think if u are one u are a a hole. but ccp has just been very lazy to fix that bug, thats right a bug. so they are not my wrecks people say? then try and shoot them yourself? heck eve if u are grouped together with another player u cant shoot his wrecks. no matter how much u complain ccp will not fix this so bleh i'm just wasting time typing..... Its posts like this that make ninja salvaging worth it. Originally by: Doc Robertson ...take a good look at this pic and tell us which one is you.
SCGhozt	Posted - 2009.11.04 02:31:00 - [36] Originally by: Dacryphile Originally by: SCGhozt u guys know what there is nothing that **es me off more then ninja salvaging. i dont hate the ninjas really even though i think if u are one u are a a hole. but ccp has just been very lazy to fix that bug, thats right a bug. so they are not my wrecks people say? then try and shoot them yourself? heck eve if u are grouped together with another player u cant shoot his wrecks. no matter how much u complain ccp will not fix this so bleh i'm just wasting time typing..... Its posts like this that make ninja salvaging worth it. not really, i tried it out myself and i didnt find it fun a torn in the rear for someone else. now if u are that type of person by nature i can see how it fits to some people.
Platte Okeefe Gallente Terminus Traders COOP	Posted - 2009.11.04 05:12:00 - [37] Edited by: Platte Okeefe on 04/11/2009 05:13:19 Originally by: Drakarin AHEM They only exist because I destroyed them. They are a resource I created. They are EXACTLY the same thing as loot, merely requiring a skill to obtain it (which makes it even closer to being like mining, a real profession). If you can't steal loot, you shouldn't be able to steal salvage. End of story. Either get credible by making the loot itself not property of the destroyer, or do the opposite and make wrecks belong to the guy who created them. I mean seriously, if the loot on the wreck belongs to me, the salvage does too. Because salvage is loot too. Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing." Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up. Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit. Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. (These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.) If this causes you to rage quit, can I have your stuff?
Nova Fox Gallente Novafox Shipyards	Posted - 2009.11.04 10:31:00 - [38] If Im going to be losing money I want to be the person at fault, even if its at my own idiocy. Dont make me blame you for losing my isk, Im not a happy fox if that happens. Pre-order your Sisters of ≡v≡ Exploration ship today, Updated 11OCT09
Domoso	Posted - 2009.11.04 11:55:00 - [39] Edited by: Domoso on 04/11/2009 11:56:32 Originally by: SCGhozt u guys know what there is nothing that **es me off more then ninja salvaging. i dont hate the ninjas really even though i think if u are one u are a a hole. but ccp has just been very lazy to fix that bug, thats right a bug. so they are not my wrecks people say? then try and shoot them yourself? heck eve if u are grouped together with another player u cant shoot his wrecks. no matter how much u complain ccp will not fix this so bleh i'm just wasting time typing..... Unfortunately, it's not a "bug" in the sense of an unintended game dynamic. CCP has taken the stance that ninja salvaging is intended. Personally, I think it should be changed as well. I started ninjaing because my missions were being ninja'd. At my current skill level it can take several hours to clear a big l4 mission. It's disappointing to lose salvage income as a missioner in this way. So until my skills increase I ninja. Given CCP's "solutions" to other "problems" in the past I believe their stance on ninja salvaging is a reluctance change the dynamics concerning wrecks and what is public/private. It's an old mechanic's trick that when something is not really an issue for the mechanic but an issue for the customer to imply that something is an intended consequence when it might be difficult to repair. shrugs I could be wrong.
Platte Okeefe Gallente Terminus Traders COOP	Posted - 2009.11.04 12:27:00 - [40] Originally by: Domoso shrugs I could be wrong. You are Salvaging is intended to be a mini profession within EVE. Just get over it or rage quit and give me your stuff
Domoso	Posted - 2009.11.04 16:30:00 - [41] Originally by: Platte Okeefe Originally by: Domoso shrugs I could be wrong. You are How can you be sure? Do you believe without question everything you're told? I've got a jumpbridge to sell you. I only require that you make half payment up front of 1bil isk as a downpayment.
Burnharder	Posted - 2009.11.04 17:08:00 - [42] Originally by: Platte Okeefe Originally by: Domoso shrugs I could be wrong. You are Salvaging is intended to be a mini profession within EVE. Just get over it or rage quit and give me your stuff Oh pleeease. I work in software. You have no idea how many "intended features" reach the customers that weren't in the design .
Riedle Minmatar Raptus Regalitor	Posted - 2009.11.04 18:48:00 - [43] Originally by: Jessica Fyers I have only been 'visited' in a mission once in Aunia; tho it was just a guy trying to bait me into attacking him so his mates (which btw warped in anyway), could pop my Golem. Epic Fail on thier part.!!!! You should have shot him because if his mates then shot you they would have been concorded. His corp does not get agro from you shooting a thief. You could have brought your corpmates in however and all gang ****d the thief. Really, I know you are not complaining here, but all the advantages are already in the MR's favour. What else could they possibly want besides an easy button from Staples? HTFU
Solomar Espersei Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.04 19:48:00 - [44] Originally by: Takh Meir'noen ...When I'm out and about in my salvager, I advise Local that I'm prospecting for salvage, and if anyone wants to invite me I'll just salvage their wrecks. But I also give warning that if I find wrecks I'm going to salvage them--I'm trying to make a living. I'm not there to loot, and I'm not trying to get kill-rights on carebears. But if you see my interceptor pop into your deadspace, feel free to shoot your wrecks, it's your right. I wasn't going to touch the loot and stated as much, but I have every intention of salvaging every last one of them, no different than if we entered the same asteroid field in hi-sec in miners. The only person I've really seen get upset was this guy in a Hyperion that kept recalling his drones and warping out of the mission to transfer aggro to me. I would just turn on my cloak and wait for him to come back, then resume. The third time he screwed up and warped without his drones and got mad at ME. Sheesh. (I also offer 10% of my take when tagging along with someone.) That seems like a reasonable idea, after all, while the lion is feeding, the other gazelle can run free. All it would take is one mission runner in a good Sansha, Blood, or Angels mission to keep all the other Care Bears snug and safe for an hour or more. I may try that sometime. I'm shocked that you ninja salvage in an Inty, but I'd say it really has its moments. Hope you got it insured.
Zellinator	Posted - 2009.11.04 19:59:00 - [45] This reminds me of a audio/video I saw online about a guy that was mining in low sec and got popped. He btched and complained about it like it wasn't his fault. This is the exact same, CCP designed this aspect of the game for a reason. Just like every other aspect of the game is made a certain way. We may not agree with it but we do have to deal with it. Complaining definately won't get rid of Ninjas, it will probably just motivate them. I've been ninja'd 11 times. Been keeping count. The first few times I was ***ed. My fleet mate fired on the guy one time. He came back in his Domi with a Falcon close behind. Could have been ugly but timer expired. I've had to deal with them alot and.... I do have a few suggestions: -Equip a TB and Salvager to your mission running ship. Either you do the mission slower and keep all the spoils, or leave it till later and possibly loose the opportunity. -Move to a system where ninjas aren't as active, it will lessen the chances of you getting jacked. -Have a civilized conversation with the Ninja, see if you can sweet talk them into sharing, kindness goes a long way. -My favorite solution out of all of them is to just stop the mission and do it later, or do a different agent. Simply put... Remove the opportunity for the Ninja, if there's no wrecks then there's no problem. Last time a ninja showed up I killed remaining wave and salvaged what I could then came back and finished later. Worked like a charm. Ninjas are here to stay, if you can't beat them then join them... That's what I did! Haha been rolling in the ISK ever since.
Srialia Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.11.04 20:08:00 - [46] Originally by: Riedle Really, I know you are not complaining here, but all the advantages are already in the MR's favour. What else could they possibly want besides an easy button from Staples? In theory, you are correct. In reality, most of those advantages are thrown out the window because of an unwillingness on the part of the MR to learn the rules of the game (eg. kill rights / aggro mechanics). A knowledgeable mission runner is probably my worst enemy, because 1) I can't trick him into anything that will let me kill his ship, 2) He knows that he can probably make more ISK/hour by ignoring salvage anyway and 3) He knows a lot of us do this for the tears, so he goes out of his way to not give us any satisfaction. Fortunately, the ignorant make up the majority of the empire player base. ^_^
Dacryphile	Posted - 2009.11.04 20:59:00 - [47] Originally by: Domoso Originally by: Platte Okeefe Originally by: Domoso shrugs I could be wrong. You are How can you be sure? Do you believe without question everything you're told? I've got a jumpbridge to sell you. I only require that you make half payment up front of 1bil isk as a downpayment. You seemed to have skipped over this post: Originally by: Platte Okeefe Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing." Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up. Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit. Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. (These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.) If this causes either of you to rage quit, can I have your stuff? Originally by: Doc Robertson ...take a good look at this pic and tell us which one is you.
Trigos Trilobi Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.11.04 21:48:00 - [48] You forgot the newest addition: Originally by: CCP Incognito Had a chat with some designers this evening. Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private. They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1208319&page=1#24
SCGhozt	Posted - 2009.11.05 01:21:00 - [49] Originally by: Trigos Trilobi You forgot the newest addition: Originally by: CCP Incognito Had a chat with some designers this evening. Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private. They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1208319&page=1#24 Yes i had heard of that from them through ingame mail. and i know this is one of their ways to keep the game i guess to mature people audience (heh) but to me with that ccp says "be an a-hole, it ok" there is nothing mature about that as far as i seen. ok fine be an a-hole but ccp all i want is to be able retaliate if i can. again a waste of time to even bother, ccp just wont fix the "bug" or simply doesnt care about what the majority of people that play eve have said about this issue. intended gameplay? lol please at least come up with another reason.
Schani Kratnorr x13 IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.05 02:26:00 - [50] Originally by: SCGhozt lol please at least come up with another reason. Why? It is a perfectly valid reason to give when asked. "No. You are wrong. Fieldgoals are worth three points. That is indeed what we indended when we agreed on the rules for football." As for ninja-salvaging being annoying. Sure it is. But so is being wardecced, suicide ganked or accidentally undocking with global aggro in a high-sec system. Any game has to have rules. Rules that define what people can and cannot do with the game. Part of the fun of EvE is it unrelenting dedication to a harsh environment. My advice would be to align youself with a dedicated salvager. get a corp mate or second account to salvage before others do.
Dacryphile	Posted - 2009.11.05 03:00:00 - [51] Originally by: Schani Kratnorr Part of the fun of EvE is it unrelenting dedication to a harsh environment. That is the only reason I ever started playing it, and the removal of it would cause me to quit.
SCGhozt	Posted - 2009.11.05 03:24:00 - [52] "Part of the fun of EvE is it unrelenting dedication to a harsh environment." i totally agree. like i said i just want to be able to shoot you if i feel like it/care. and yes they could set the rules as they fit, but to me this is just an exploit that people are taking advantage of just like any other bug.
Dacryphile	Posted - 2009.11.05 05:23:00 - [53] Originally by: SCGhozt "Part of the fun of EvE is it unrelenting dedication to a harsh environment." i totally agree. like i said i just want to be able to shoot you if i feel like it/care. and yes they could set the rules as they fit, but to me this is just an exploit that people are taking advantage of just like any other bug. Yet if you read CCPs stance, you know it isn't a bug or an exploit, but something CCP wanted to bring about and coded it to allow it. Originally by: Doc Robertson ...take a good look at this pic and tell us which one is you.
Ryhss Caldari Sarum A Fortiori Sanctimony of Bellum	Posted - 2009.11.05 09:13:00 - [54] Originally by: Drakarin Originally by: Chienka Originally by: Sader Rykane When your getting Ninja salvaged. When are you people going to realize they're not your wrecks? AHEM They only exist because I destroyed them. They are a resource I created. They are EXACTLY the same thing as loot, merely requiring a skill to obtain it (which makes it even closer to being like mining, a real profession). If you can't steal loot, you shouldn't be able to steal salvage. End of story. Either get credible by making the loot itself not property of the destroyer, or do the opposite and make wrecks belong to the guy who created them. I mean seriously, if the loot on the wreck belongs to me, the salvage does too. Because salvage is loot too. I concur and support this.
Oviramir Cobalt Dragon Exploration Company	Posted - 2009.11.05 11:14:00 - [55] Originally by: Dacryphile Yet if you read CCPs stance, you know it isn't a bug or an exploit, but something CCP wanted to bring about and coded it to allow it. Just because CCP intended it, doesn't mean we have to agree it is the way it should be. It is the rules of the game so I accept it and deal with it, however I do think that logically wrecks (Notice I am not saying Salvage, which hasn't been created at this point...) and loot should be the same. Both are created by shooting the rat, both spawn where the rat was shot. Therefore I think either both should be fair game for anyone, or both should be private to the creator. I don't care which way around, I just think they should be consistent.
Tippia Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2009.11.05 11:25:00 - [56] Edited by: Tippia on 05/11/2009 11:26:19 Originally by: Oviramir Originally by: Dacryphile Yet if you read CCPs stance, you know it isn't a bug or an exploit, but something CCP wanted to bring about and coded it to allow it. Just because CCP intended it, doesn't mean we have to agree it is the way it should be. No, but it means that any argument based on "bug" or "exploit" is inherently void. Quote: logically …you would never be able to create any wrecks, because CONCORD would instapwn any rats that spawned. Logic always take a back seat to game play, and in this case, the gameplay dictates that the loot is yours as part of the rewards for killing the rat; that salvage is part of the rewards for being a salvager; and that the two activities are separate and unrelated. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.05 12:22:00 - [57] Quote: His corp does not get agro from you shooting a thief. You could have brought your corpmates in however and all gang **d the thief. Really, I know you are not complaining here, but all the advantages are already in the MR's favour. What else could they possibly want besides an easy button from Staples? It's important to do as is written here. Use corp mates if you get someone "red", because in a missioning ship 1v1 you'll get neuted and owned. Quote:** Therefore I think either both should be fair game for anyone, or both should be private to the creator. I don't care which way around, I just think they should be consistent. Everyone (ninjas and not) bookmark the following I am to say. There's a mirable logic behind the apparently inconsistent of loot and salvaging. Loot is "private" (ie makes a thief flagged for PvP) to entice one side of the deal to bother keep missioning and looting. Salvage is "public" to entice the other side of the deal to bother probing and invading the missions. In the first case, the missioneer is more or less encouraged to believe his killed stuff will remain his to take. If everyone could loot in their face they would stop bothering to even kill stuff and would just blitz the missions. No PvP for the PvP game = bad. In the second case, the ninja is more or less encouraged to believe his ninjaed stuff will remain his to take and the missioneer won't attack. If the ninjas would get flagged, every missioneer would park some PvP ships nearby ready to kill them. Scared ninja that would not come = no PP for the PvP game = bad. Instead EvE puts two traps for two mice so that they meet and a PvP chance is created. They effectively hit two birds with one stone. Brilliant. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Misha Kahan	Posted - 2009.11.05 13:06:00 - [58] You know what I think? I think the system works fine except for one little part... NPC starter corps should not be able to freely salvage other players wrecks. Require them to be in a player corp so if someone takes offense they can do something. This way all the "emergence" that the devs want takes place in game instead of the forums. Really- my eyes are bleeding from all the posts!
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.11.05 15:07:00 - [59] Originally by: Misha Kahan You know what I think? I think the system works fine except for one little part... NPC starter corps should not be able to freely salvage other players wrecks. Require them to be in a player corp so if someone takes offense they can do something. This way all the "emergence" that the devs want takes place in game instead of the forums. Really- my eyes are bleeding from all the posts! Only if missionrunners can't run level 4s in NPC corps.
jeangrey	Posted - 2009.11.05 15:47:00 - [60] i have a problem with "ninja" salvagers. the name... why o why does everyone keep refering to these people as ninjas? its insulting. i am a ninja, as in someone who trains in bujinkan budo taijutsu. i dont nick salvage lol bloody 80`s films gave us all a real bad name. i feel like were the preverbial baddys, like doctor evils henchmen. something goes wrong blame the ninjas eh. grumble grumble besides if ninjas really nicked the salvage you wouldnt notice.. it would just disapeer :)

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