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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 36 post(s)
Qlanth Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.10 19:31:00 - [2941] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Qlanth See here is what you do not understand. The new system does not improve the problem of density in 0.0. To keep all our players with ISK in wallet and ships at hand we need to control 100 some systems so they can all spread out and make decent money. Already shown before. Currently system can hold circa 1 person per 8-10 belts + 1-2 people more thx to exploration stuff. With changes EVERY anomaly can hold 1 more person. That is 1-5 people via belts + 0-10 people via anomalies. Why 1 person per anomaly? If you FINISH it you warp out and new anomaly is spawned instead. Implying that 10 anomaly system can keep only 3-4 players busy is just plain lie. Unless you run 2 sites AT SAME TIME using one character. So you already get 1-15 people per system (dependant on belts/anomalies) + more due to mining stuff (tho gravi sites suck) + at least few people who can perma-farm radars/magnetos (no idea if its +1 or +1 per level up to 5 or 10 sites - still its one person per site). So you can get up to around 20-25 people working at same time in fully developed system. This is excluding any mining (and i do exclude it coz mining in 0.0 is worthless in most cases. Hint, hint CCP). That all assumes that the anomalies will actually be worth running. I said earlier in this thread that I would estimate about 5% of all anomalies are currently worth running over belt ratting. If I come into a system and see that all the anomalies are terrible I might as well start ratting because I'll make more ISK. It seems I was mistaken. I thought that the upgrade just gave a flat 2 anomalies period. if it does indeed give 10 anomalies at max level then that is actually a much better improvement than I thought. I still think however than if you want to fix 0.0 money making you need to fix those anomalies so that all anomalies are worth running because they are on par with belt ratting (the top tier is better, the majority is on par, the bottom tier is slightly worse but you need to finish them for a new one to spawn) or else I will just keep on belt ratting because I can make more ISK more reliably.
Bodega Cat	Posted - 2009.11.10 19:31:00 - [2942] I'm currently a wormhole dweller, and i'm still pretty new and myself with friends run a small outfit of about 5 accounts total in a low class w-hole making really good money with low skill points but we work hard. After reading this entire thread, I would like to offer up how i feel about all this as a young, and ambitious player who "knows" of null sec but can't make any assertations about it's true complexity, but would love to get involved down there someday after i retire as a frontiersman. So yea, I want to move there but don't see why I should right now. The problem I see is quite simply like everyone else, it doesn't seem to be economicaly benefitial to play around down there by any means, perhaps even more so after these changes. This isn't just about the baseline isk per hour either... In wormholes, you need good logistics too, and you need miner guys to maximize those sites, as well as some research/industry skills to maximize what your anchored POS can do, hauling, cloakers, warships etc. and we value those skills equally as all part of the team. In nullsec however, I just don't see the incentive to get those kinds of players involved down there when it's so much easier (like isk), to just do most of that stuff in high sec and pipe it down to null as combat ready assets. Wasn't that one of the big goals? Get those kinds of players who enjoy that stuff to see a sensible reason to go there (and i feel bad for all the poor pvpers that live down there now that are disgusted with the idea of having to do it, and the shame is their realy is people that WANT to, why can't this be attractive to them)? This couples up with the fact that most people down there are gungho about pvp like i said, and rather have accounts logged in on combat-centric players than not. I want to see bonuses to industry, research, refining, and any market based skills. Promote growth and promote the inclusion of that percentage of the playerbase and it will be healthy for nullsec with what the user goals are for this expansion. Now this leads to my last issue, how is security going to be improved for the small corp down there at all (particularly if you want to attract industrial minded folks, how can they SOMETIMES feel even just a small bit of saftey)? If he can't even get cyno jammers and stuff untill WAAYYY late in his systems development, how the heck is he ever going to last that long? Shouldn't it be easier and more cost effective to ESTABLISH a good base of ops, and then harder and harder to keep it safe as time goes on, giving the homesteaders a chance to grow in parallel to be ready? At least then, you may have some more curious types who are resigned to the fact that they'll go down for a month or two, make as much money as they can, and then just go belly up when they slowly, inevitably, get beaten to death. Right now, the penetration just seems worthless to even bother taking a gamble to even give it a try. Additionally, it needs to be very clear how you will promote the inevitable fiefdom aspect to all of this, as realistically, that is the only way i can see it to be work out for the small guy? Why is it going to be more beneficial for the dominant alliances to really try and let the smaller corps "work the land" so to speak and take a reasonable enough cutt so that both can feel good about the deal (which again, null just needs to be more profitable)? And why will he rather not just swallow them up but allow them to continue to be somewhat independent of the larger alliances sphere of influence? The sad thing is, i just don't see how mechanics of +1 scannable site for each rank answers any of these questions!
wallenbergaren	Posted - 2009.11.10 19:34:00 - [2943] The solution to nullsec is to make it more like w-space
Shawna Gray Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.10 19:37:00 - [2944] Edited by: Shawna Gray on 10/11/2009 19:37:02 Originally by: Deva Blackfire And you know why it doesnt work? Because due to all r64 ** people got lazy. I dont need to do anything, the afk-ISK-from-thin-air will fund me everything: from SOV, to POS to stations to ships. Atm all 0.0 alliances get reality check: suddenly they HAVE to participate in making isk. You know what would be perfect? Moon mining being changed to manual mode. Lol. Pretty much everyone in 0.0 has a empire alt to make isk, or at the very least rats/mines etc. Originally by:** Cailais Dominion means you have to choose: settled farming life, ploughing those belts and reaping those npc rats or you're ghengis khan style nomadic warriors. Or just continue as they do now, keep a empire alt to make isk and pvp with their other char in 0.0
Orthaen	Posted - 2009.11.10 19:38:00 - [2945] Originally by: Qlanth I still think however than if you want to fix 0.0 money making you need to fix those anomalies so that all anomalies are worth running because they are on par with belt ratting (the top tier is better, the majority is on par, the bottom tier is slightly worse but you need to finish them for a new one to spawn) or else I will just keep on belt ratting because I can make more ISK more reliably. People in this thread, from testing, and CCP responses have indicated that this is what will happen. The anomalies quality will be at least on par with ratting, once you've upgraded them. Ideally, better. On the topic of 0.0 mining being worthless....why? Is it the logistics, or getting the ore refined? ABC ores are 2-3 times more profitable then mining in hi-sec. I know, a lot of poor trusec systems have absolutely laughable ores, but grav sites are always better then the resident ores, meaning they would be primarily ABC ores in 0.0 grav sites, with some dark ochre, gneiss, and mercoxit on the site.
Deva Blackfire 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.11.10 19:41:00 - [2946] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 10/11/2009 19:43:38 Originally by: NickSuccorso R64 income goes into helping pay for alliance upkeep, not personal wallets. If there's an alliance out there that you can show me that supplies there people's PVP ships, please show me who it is. From alies i know? TRI (prolly back again due to dyspro), PL, most (if not all) of NC, im quite sure -A- and you do it too. It is called "ship reimbursement program" which de facto is moving alliance isk (in form of assets) to players wallets (hands). Another thing - i had my personal r64 for a while, so again it went into my wallet. I know few people who also have personal r64s (even under alliance cover) tho its obvious i cant say names (alliances will get mad and as those are some of my friends i dont want them to lose easy income). Plus - they go to help keep ally upkeeps because you did rule so as an alliance. Clap clap - you actually managed to TAX moon income (with 100% tax rate). Which still doesnt change a thing. If it was manual nothing would stop you from putting 100% tax on moons or doing lol "mandatory" moon mining ops. Or to make it easier? Just mining unprocessed moon mins which could be taxed in stations while being processed. Options aplenty, but you are too short sighted to even think about them. All you can do is repeat same old mantra "all r64 goes to alliance". Quote: That all assumes that the anomalies will actually be worth running. I said earlier in this thread that I would estimate about 5% of all anomalies are currently worth running over belt ratting. If I come into a system and see that all the anomalies are terrible I might as well start ratting because I'll make more ISK. From what ive seen while scanning geminate (that being 1000+ anomaly sites) around 15% of them are total crap (frigs and cruisers), another 15% are mix of BC/BS and rest have plenty of battleships inside. On lv4 level. With additional cherry of top named faction spawns. Quote: Lol. Pretty much everyone in 0.0 has a empire alt to make isk, or at the very least rats/mines etc. Another generalisation which has absolutely no cover in facts. And in quite a lot cases it is wrong (at least from allies ive been in that being tri, celes, razor and having additional insider on few southern ones). Otherwise you wouldnt see people doing belting or plexing like crazy.
Kepakh	Posted - 2009.11.10 19:50:00 - [2947] Originally by: Qlanth I don't understand your first statement. What costs should I be running? How much ISK players make? Or the cost of holding Sovereignty in 100 systems in current mechanics? Or the cost of holding Sovereignty under future mechanics? As far as the rest of your post: In this regard you are absolutely correct. 0.0 alliances will be able to make some ISK with the changes. Not every bit of ISK we make will be going toward maintaining sovereignty and we will be able to survive (GoonSwarm especially). We will, however, be making decidedly less ISK than before because of the increased cost of maintaining space without increasing the amount of ISK earnable by players. Basically all these changes are going to do on a personal level for me is make me not want to claim sovereignty. I think there are a lot of other alliances feeling the same way. Especially groups like Atlas who live DEEP in 0.0 with terrible true-sec systems, very few R64 moons, and HEAVY reliance on jumpbridge networks to keep them supplied. I do not want to see this happen because I enjoy large scale PvP, and having all of my enemies abandon 0.0 space (I'm betting a large amount would just abandon the game) would be very very boring for me. The costs on your space after Dominion. No doubt some alliances will lose ISK - personal and alliance level, especialy the big ones with generous programs - like your mentioned free moons. Some will get hurt more, some less, some will gain. It all depends on alliance management only. As for myself, I am all for cutting personal income and replacing it by alliance/corp level income. Originally by: NickSuccorso R64 income goes into helping pay for alliance upkeep, not personal wallets. If there's an alliance out there that you can show me that supplies there people's PVP ships, please show me who it is. Oh boy, another expert at aconomy. If you do not have that R64 you will have to pay it from your own wallet so don't tell me it is not affecting you. Reimbusrtement programs, free caps, discounted ships, free ammo and modules, etc - nothing unusual.
Qlanth Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.10 19:53:00 - [2948] Originally by: Orthaen Originally by: Qlanth I still think however than if you want to fix 0.0 money making you need to fix those anomalies so that all anomalies are worth running because they are on par with belt ratting (the top tier is better, the majority is on par, the bottom tier is slightly worse but you need to finish them for a new one to spawn) or else I will just keep on belt ratting because I can make more ISK more reliably. People in this thread, from testing, and CCP responses have indicated that this is what will happen. The anomalies quality will be at least on par with ratting, once you've upgraded them. Ideally, better. On the topic of 0.0 mining being worthless....why? Is it the logistics, or getting the ore refined? ABC ores are 2-3 times more profitable then mining in hi-sec. I know, a lot of poor trusec systems have absolutely laughable ores, but grav sites are always better then the resident ores, meaning they would be primarily ABC ores in 0.0 grav sites, with some dark ochre, gneiss, and mercoxit on the site. Because of the drone regions and drone compounds in general mineral prices have been steadily crashing. ABC ores are not worth as much as they were a year ago and actually if you crunch the numbers Veldspar is probably the 4th best ore to mine.
Niamota Olin	Posted - 2009.11.10 19:54:00 - [2949] The essence of complaints is simple. dominion will turn people who enjoy pvping in 0.0 into pve'ers due to the need of isk from individuals. No matter how many times people say adapt or whatever, people play a GAME for there fun, if there fun is pvp how is forcing them to change play style good for the game? And the whole ting about getting bears to come into 0.0.. thats just the same in reverse, if your in 0.0 your going to find pvp whether you like it or not, thus it turns pve'ers into pvpers. Forget the isk per hour arguments, this is about ccp FORCING us to play how they want to fit there game. ie no more sandbox, its a becoming a controlled playpen like every other mmo.
Pointfive	Posted - 2009.11.10 20:06:00 - [2950] Originally by: Deva Blackfire R64 income goes into helping pay for alliance upkeep, not personal wallets. If there's an alliance out there that you can show me that supplies there people's PVP ships, please show me who it is. From alies i know? TRI (prolly back again due to dyspro), PL, most (if not all) of NC, im quite sure -A- and you do it too. It is called "ship reimbursement program" which de facto is moving alliance isk (in form of assets) to players wallets (hands). An Yes if you lose a ship doing an important fight you will get some of your isk reimbursed. Pretty much the only fights deemed important are the fights that protect the r64s themselves. Pretty much everyone trying to defend 0.0 isk income and say that level 4s being better than the vast majority are just super mad because they somehow think all 0.0 players just sit around getting rich off moon goo. They dont. Maybe a few do. And some people who are lucky enough can get money off of complexes. The average palyer is making less than level 4s and this is not right. Making the game so you spend your time on an alt in empire making cash so you can go back to 0.0 and be able to fight again is just sad.

Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2009.11.10 20:07:00 - [2951] Originally by: Shawna Gray Lol. Pretty much everyone who can't cut it in 0.0 has a empire alt to make isk, or at the very least rats/mines etc. Fixed that typo for you.
NickSuccorso Arcana Imperii Ltd. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.10 20:09:00 - [2952] Quote: From alies i know? TRI (prolly back again due to dyspro), PL, most (if not all) of NC, im quite sure -A- and you do it too. It is called "ship reimbursement program" which de facto is moving alliance isk (in form of assets) to players wallets (hands). Pretty sure nobody gives 100% reimbursement on everything, nor do they shower members with ships at no cost.
Marchocias Silent Ninja's	Posted - 2009.11.10 20:10:00 - [2953] Wooooo! Almost 100 pages to this threadnaught already! Everyone.... get ready to link arms and drunkenly sing Auld Lang Syne! ---- I belong to Silent Ninja (Hopefully that should cover it).
ep1k Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.10 20:12:00 - [2954] Dont increase 0.0 income because i want my level 4 alt to make me money forever. I am also a big baby who has never been in a large 0.0 alliance and thinks the average player get nonstop free money from moons.
gambrinous	Posted - 2009.11.10 20:12:00 - [2955] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 10/11/2009 19:47:04 Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 10/11/2009 19:43:38 Originally by: NickSuccorso R64 income goes into helping pay for alliance upkeep, not personal wallets. If there's an alliance out there that you can show me that supplies there people's PVP ships, please show me who it is. From alies i know? TRI (prolly back again due to dyspro), PL, most (if not all) of NC, im quite sure -A- and you do it too. It is called "ship reimbursement program" which de facto is moving alliance isk (in form of assets) to players wallets (hands). Hate to burst your bubble, but I'm in one of those alliances, my ships aren't reimbursed Ships are only reimbursed on approved ops (generally just an official FC) but even then, not all ships. Caps? NO, HACS? NO Recons? NO So best case scenario is full reimbursement if I only ever PVP when there's an official fleet formed, and only if I fly a sub cap that is on a list. Yay. I dunno wtf is wrong with all you trolls. This thread is now just ghey with people that don't know what they are talking about.
xxxak Caldari Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.11.10 20:16:00 - [2956] Originally by: Quesa Edited by: Quesa on 06/11/2009 22:57:11 Nothing I have seen so far has even come close to SUGGESTING we will be able to find activity for even 50 people for more than an hour in a single, fully upgraded system. 1 person can clear 4 anoms in an hour. 2 people can clear a DED 7-9/10 plex in an hour. Mining is **** until you fix Grav sites and give us a reason to actually mine VELD. All I've seen are enough activities to keep 20-30 people busy for 3-4 hours. I'm begging you to explain how you even came CLOSE to the number of 100-150 being able to keep themselves busy in a single upgraded system. I'm not trolling, I REALLY REALLY REALLY want you to explain to us how this is even remotely possible. This really.
Verlisia	Posted - 2009.11.10 20:16:00 - [2957] lol more goon tears please I've children to feed lol
Niamota Olin	Posted - 2009.11.10 20:20:00 - [2958] Here is some constructive criticism for ccp The first person in your next dev meeting to use a buzz word like synergy or dynamic... Fire them.
gambrinous	Posted - 2009.11.10 20:21:00 - [2959] Originally by: Verlisia lol more goon tears please I've children to feed lol read the post at the top of this page. realise you are a fgt. gtfo.
Deva Blackfire 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.11.10 20:21:00 - [2960] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 10/11/2009 20:25:29 Originally by: gambrinous Hate to burst your bubble, but I'm in one of those alliances, my ships aren't reimbursed Ships are only reimbursed on approved ops (generally just an official FC) but even then, not all ships. Caps? NO, HACS? NO Recons? NO So best case scenario is full reimbursement if I only ever PVP when there's an official fleet formed, and only if I fly a sub cap that is on a list. Yay. You know whats the funniest part about this thread? People contradict themselves all the time. But when they contradict themselves in one post - this is just comedy gold. EDIT: And a bit back at 1st post on this page Quote: If he can't even get cyno jammers and stuff untill WAAYYY late in his systems development, how the heck is he ever going to last that long? You see, the issue is you (as in you = players) just killed your own immunity by... reducing SOV costs. When clear system costed 300m/month just to keep sov it meant noone would really try and take it from you coz keeping it to yourself would cost them a bit. Now with reduced sov costs it is again feasible just to sov up all systems within 100 jumps so noone else sits there. Whats funnier keeping sov will be even EASIER now than before. 30m/month is less than small tower costs.

Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2009.11.10 20:24:00 - [2961] Edited by: Gnulpie on 10/11/2009 20:24:34 Edit: Failpost
Pointfive	Posted - 2009.11.10 20:25:00 - [2962] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: gambrinous Hate to burst your bubble, but I'm in one of those alliances, my ships aren't reimbursed Ships are only reimbursed on approved ops (generally just an official FC) but even then, not all ships. Caps? NO, HACS? NO Recons? NO So best case scenario is full reimbursement if I only ever PVP when there's an official fleet formed, and only if I fly a sub cap that is on a list. Yay. You know whats the funniest part about this thread? People contradict themselves all the time. But when they contradict themselves in one post - this is just comedy gold. Are you daft? Some ships are reimbursed most are not. Maybe he was flying one that isnt. You decide to go do some pvp on your own? No reimbursement. You decide to form a big gang? No reimbursement. Get ganked doing any form of pve? No reimbursement. If you fly a specific ship for a very specific flight. You get some of your loss reduced. You still lose isk. Woah man these freakin moons make 0.0 and isk fountain for the average man.
Kepakh	Posted - 2009.11.10 20:25:00 - [2963] Originally by: xxxak Originally by: Quesa Edited by: Quesa on 06/11/2009 22:57:11 Nothing I have seen so far has even come close to SUGGESTING we will be able to find activity for even 50 people for more than an hour in a single, fully upgraded system. 1 person can clear 4 anoms in an hour. 2 people can clear a DED 7-9/10 plex in an hour. Mining is **** until you fix Grav sites and give us a reason to actually mine VELD. All I've seen are enough activities to keep 20-30 people busy for 3-4 hours. I'm begging you to explain how you even came CLOSE to the number of 100-150 being able to keep themselves busy in a single upgraded system. I'm not trolling, I REALLY REALLY REALLY want you to explain to us how this is even remotely possible. This really. Until there are space upgrades on Sisi or there is another devblog released you can only troll like Quesa does. So far we can only say that you will gain guarateed 230 man hours of anomaly grinding per max military upgraded system. Not much info on hidden belts, mini-profession sites, complexes or such.
Hrin Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.10 20:26:00 - [2964] Originally by: Gnulpie page 100 snipa! (always wanted to do that ) 30 posts in a page
Marlona Sky D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.11.10 20:27:00 - [2965] Adapt or die. Why are goons crying the most over the new sovereignty changes?
Deva Blackfire 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.11.10 20:28:00 - [2966] Originally by: Pointfive Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: gambrinous Hate to burst your bubble, but I'm in one of those alliances, my ships aren't reimbursed Ships are only reimbursed on approved ops (generally just an official FC) but even then, not all ships. Caps? NO, HACS? NO Recons? NO So best case scenario is full reimbursement if I only ever PVP when there's an official fleet formed, and only if I fly a sub cap that is on a list. Yay. You know whats the funniest part about this thread? People contradict themselves all the time. But when they contradict themselves in one post - this is just comedy gold. Are you daft? Some ships are reimbursed most are not. Maybe he was flying one that isnt. You decide to go do some pvp on your own? No reimbursement. You decide to form a big gang? No reimbursement. Get ganked doing any form of pve? No reimbursement. If you fly a specific ship for a very specific flight. You get some of your loss reduced. You still lose isk. Woah man these freakin moons make 0.0 and isk fountain for the average man. Are you stupid? If SOME ships are reimbursed then he IS reimbursed. So his first line is a blatant lie. I wrote about reimbursement at all not full or whatever. Which he confirmed - in some cases he gets ship back = reimbursement program exists.
Ivanna Nuke Gallente Daralux	Posted - 2009.11.10 20:28:00 - [2967] It all relates to cowbell.
Shawna Gray Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.10 20:32:00 - [2968] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Originally by: Shawna Gray Lol. Pretty much everyone who can't cut it in 0.0 has a empire alt to make isk, or at the very least rats/mines etc. Fixed that typo for you. Lol you are not "special" if you can make some isk in 0.0. But if you are smart you put your monemaking char where he can do an optimal job, and thats in empire.
Niamota Olin	Posted - 2009.11.10 20:33:00 - [2969] Most ship reimbursement programs I know of are a falisy, they normally relate to t1 ships and you get back isk relating to insurance payout's. So with insurance and a boost you can normally get a hull back easily and reinsure it (sometimes) but mods are lost and its all t1 only in many cases. Ship reimbursement is a bad name for it.
Gordon Reiss XERCORE Cult of War	Posted - 2009.11.10 20:33:00 - [2970] Got 99 problems...



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