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Minmatar: New FOTM

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Trader20	Posted - 2009.12.02 23:54:00 - [31] Edited by: Trader20 on 02/12/2009 23:55:30 Originally by: Madner Kami Edited by: Madner Kami on 02/12/2009 23:51:22 Originally by: Gamrikis I am waiting for the complete realization that it was a lateral move for arties. It does nothing in the scope of large fleet battles other than hit and get the F*** out tactics that I will try to implament in the fleets I am in. I think the biggest problem is the tracking and range of arties is way to low.Don't get mad just get use to the fact that in fleet combat you will be a small anomily that most FC's will not try to fit into their plan. Hm, I doubt you realize how surprisingly unpleasent a sudden flanking squad of artillery ships can be (now again). Until the "flanking squad" with rails or tachs catches up with the fleet. But I guess beggers can't be choosers, min just be happy you got a boost.
Gamrikis	Posted - 2009.12.03 01:04:00 - [32] Originally by: Madner Kami Edited by: Madner Kami on 02/12/2009 23:51:22 Originally by: Gamrikis I am waiting for the complete realization that it was a lateral move for arties. It does nothing in the scope of large fleet battles other than hit and get the F*** out tactics that I will try to implament in the fleets I am in. I think the biggest problem is the tracking and range of arties is way to low.Don't get mad just get use to the fact that in fleet combat you will be a small anomily that most FC's will not try to fit into their plan. Hm, I doubt you realize how surprisingly unpleasent a sudden flanking squad of artillery ships can be (now again). Not to be rude but that unsupported accusation of what I do and don't know seems placed at random. So for all intensive purposes I will approach this by allowing you to explain yourself with logical supported application just how good/important a flanking squad will be. Explain the purpose, explain your escape plan and why you should do this with Minie ships. Understand that if we take a test sample of apocs and say that from the time they land at 100-140 from targets and the pilot clicks the warp button for a planet behind them, they can get off 3-4 shots minimum negating the so called boost to your beloved alpha. I love being proven wrong with strong facts so have at it. P.S. I don't like mock scenarios with no factual numbers at all, just unproven words.
Torpir Lee Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.12.03 01:10:00 - [33] Originally by: Gamrikis Originally by: Madner Kami Edited by: Madner Kami on 02/12/2009 23:51:22 Originally by: Gamrikis I am waiting for the complete realization that it was a lateral move for arties. It does nothing in the scope of large fleet battles other than hit and get the F*** out tactics that I will try to implament in the fleets I am in. I think the biggest problem is the tracking and range of arties is way to low.Don't get mad just get use to the fact that in fleet combat you will be a small anomily that most FC's will not try to fit into their plan. Hm, I doubt you realize how surprisingly unpleasent a sudden flanking squad of artillery ships can be (now again). Not to be rude but that unsupported accusation of what I do and don't know seems placed at random. So for all intensive purposes I will approach this by allowing you to explain yourself with logical supported application just how good/important a flanking squad will be. Explain the purpose, explain your escape plan and why you should do this with Minie ships. Understand that if we take a test sample of apocs and say that from the time they land at 100-140 from targets and the pilot clicks the warp button for a planet behind them, they can get off 3-4 shots minimum negating the so called boost to your beloved alpha. I love being proven wrong with strong facts so have at it. P.S. I don't like mock scenarios with no factual numbers at all, just unproven words. Finding your target on your overview takes time, locking takes time. Your 3-4 shots minimum theory is wrong.
Gamrikis	Posted - 2009.12.03 01:31:00 - [34] You are a Flank squad you know exactly what target you are gunning for and as a Flank squad I would assume your task is to find said target and pod them. Why are you hitting warp before you find your target? I am assuming your FC knows their job and way around a battle field. Also it takes you just as much time to find it with minnie as it does any other ship type, so what are you talking about? Let me clarify for you, from the time you fire your first shot to the time you warp you can easily get in 4 shots still. Plus your DPS is higher do to the fact that you can now use a shorter range crystals and you have more buffer than a shield tanker. Maybe it is just what people want to believe but there is not much this gang style can do that a long range gang wouldn't be better for. Dps on the field every 20 + seconds for a few seconds then gone or full time dps always on the field. I know what I would want, that is dps applied constantly and more of it do to time on field. I am sure you understand where I am coming from. How long is your warp? how long does it take to re-warp back to the field? As far as I am concerned you might as well not show up in that type of gang. Sure you might live but your mates all died well your gang played chicken with the battle field.
Madner Kami Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2009.12.03 01:45:00 - [35] Edited by: Madner Kami on 03/12/2009 01:47:51 Originally by: Trader20 Until the "flanking squad" with rails or tachs catches up with the fleet. But I guess beggers can't be choosers, min just be happy you got a boost. I doubt even a Tachyon Abaddon could pull off, what a 1200mm Tempest could do. Broadsides of over 4000 aren't really a problem, if you want them to happen and a full squad of such thingies can throw a spider-gang off-balance quite unpleasently. Moreso, if you really want the **** to hit the fan, you can even go 1400mm+fitting mod and get a broadside of over 8000 per Tempest. Multiply that by 10 and even the most tanky Abaddon feels a bit uncomfortable (both figures are turrets only!). Sure, in a long battle, they still will have less DPS, but seriously, whenever they get a volley off, a ship's going to die and reduces the returning fire by quite a margin. That might not be the perfect help in large fleet engagements, to be quite honest, but small to medium gangs will have some serious problems, when facing that.
Gamrikis	Posted - 2009.12.03 01:48:00 - [36] I am confused are you saying the 1200 mm's got a alpha boost?
Bun Engine	Posted - 2009.12.03 01:52:00 - [37] Originally by: Gamrikis So for all intensive purposes... This is quite possibly the most spectacular failure of english literacy I have seen on these forums. Especially so since the guy who wrote it goes on to be an elitist ***** for the rest of the post. In other news, the patch has been out for less than 48 hours. While I realize no amount of time can convince most players to try new things, I'm sure there's a handful of original pilots out there willing to try out a few new tricks. Much like any balance change, time will tell. Theorycrafting with Apocalypse and Maelstrom hit-squads is pretty comical if we're talking a pitched fleet battle. Now as far as territory raids go, that's something else entirely. (It's "for all intents and purposes", since I know you're still fuming about my insult to your flawless command of your mother tongue)
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2009.12.03 01:58:00 - [38] Originally by: Bun Engine Originally by: Gamrikis So for all intensive purposes... This is quite possibly the most spectacular failure of english literacy I have seen on these forums. Especially so since the guy who wrote it goes on to be an elitist ***** for the rest of the post. In other news, the patch has been out for less than 48 hours. While I realize no amount of time can convince most players to try new things, I'm sure there's a handful of original pilots out there willing to try out a few new tricks. Much like any balance change, time will tell. Theorycrafting with Apocalypse and Maelstrom hit-squads is pretty comical if we're talking a pitched fleet battle. Now as far as territory raids go, that's something else entirely. (It's "for all intents and purposes", since I know you're still fuming about my insult to your flawless command of your mother tongue) This. Minmatar are hit and run. This boost is perfect for them. I agree with everything above.
Gamrikis	Posted - 2009.12.03 02:03:00 - [39] Edited by: Gamrikis on 03/12/2009 02:05:11 I am fuming? I am an elitist? Where did I say that? or imply it? And the comparison is as ridiculous as flank gangs as your team gets nuked. You seem to be an angry type, what on earth makes someone in a game so angry? Peace out man, here is a hug to help you... don't go out in public with that evil all over your face. Someone will know it hurts inside.
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2009.12.03 02:07:00 - [40] Originally by: Gamrikis You seem to be an angry type, what on earth makes someone in a game so angry? It's just word nerding, I'd brush it off. (Though he is correct.) I get the same way when I see "boni" instead of "bonuses"...
Bomberlocks Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.12.03 02:10:00 - [41] For once, I'll hold my tongue and not criticise the living hell out of CCP because I honestly don't know how useful these changes really will be. The idea of using hit and run Tempest Arty gangs was floated a while and is certainly a viable option for small gang warfare. For fleets I simply don't know. What has definitely happened is that it has become more complicated to fit Minnie ships, and you have to get practice in finding fits that work, but that goes for everyone after a patch. I personally think that the TE/TC falloff buff help all turret weapons, not only projectiles, and clever, Amarr and Gallente will be using these to surpise people. I don't know what kind of massive falloff Pulse Lasers plus Scorch are going to have, but I suppose they could theoretically outrange medium rails and arties, and Gallente ships could possibly use this to get better blaster tracking at range at the expense of absolute dps. It'll be interesting, in any case. - Amarr-online: The game that CCP really wants you to play.
Megan Maynard Minmatar Clown Punchers. Clown Punchers Syndicate	Posted - 2009.12.03 03:02:00 - [42] Yes, these changes are horrible, projectiles need more love. Originally by: F'nog Originally by: Stareatthesun No no no ... Polaris is where CCP keeps the death star that will destroy eve when the servers shut down. Thankfully I've got Interceptors trained to V. S
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2009.12.03 03:22:00 - [43] The real issue as I understand it is that CCP never actually said projectile weapons were a problem, they just said that we players thought there was a problem. As such they did the least they could in any way to buff them, in most cases they didn't go forward but sideways when it came to changes.
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2009.12.03 03:34:00 - [44] Originally by: Nian Banks The real issue as I understand it is that CCP never actually said projectile weapons were a problem, they just said that we players thought there was a problem. As such they did the least they could in any way to buff them, in most cases they didn't go forward but sideways when it came to changes. Nian...Fusion does 20% more damage than it used to. We play in an armor tanked world. That is huge. Considering that Fusion used to kill anything with 3x trimarks faster than EMP would, that alone would be a fantastic buff. I see a lot of complaints lately that sound like whining for a Bugatti when you were given a Porsche.
de'imos	Posted - 2009.12.03 04:26:00 - [45] Originally by: Seriously Bored I see a lot of complaints lately that sound like whining for a Bugatti when you were given a Porsche. A light, agile car vs an elephant that's only good in a straight line? I know what I choose....ok, so I would choose a lotus over a porsche, but that's british nationalism for you. :) I've always preferred mobile forces. If the FC could delegate a wing or squad of minnie pilots independently lead by a competent commander solely to make opportunistic strikes with in and out tactics, yes, it won't do as much total damage as an emplaced sniper. However, if targets are chosen effectively, it could take a psychological toll on the opposing fleet. The FC could be forced into a mistake by having to judge whether to ignore or attempt to address the threat, among other things. As to whoever said every FC would just ignore them, I disagree...minus Naglfar :P A good commander finds ways to utilize every tool available to them to their greatest capacity. Dismissing something out of hand just because it isn't in line with what 'the masses' think is foolish. Be creative, experiment. How many things were deemed unviable by general consensus until someone proved them wrong? - and I'm just talking about EVE, here. Unless a FC manages to build a reputation using them in large fleet battles, they won't become FOTM there. And I'm thinking that those people who enjoy sitting in their solid-but-slow brickships won't put in the effort to learn a new style of fighting for small gangs. Their loss.
Shamrock1	Posted - 2009.12.03 04:58:00 - [46] Anyone getting slower Rate of fire on artillery, cuz I AM!!! Fail CCP!!! ARTILLERY DPS 4TW!!! I'm Flaming.
Psiri	Posted - 2009.12.03 05:08:00 - [47] Originally by: Sidus Isaacs More falloff is also a stealth gallente buff. For the ships that have lows to spare, mweh.
Ariel Vanderen	Posted - 2009.12.03 05:29:00 - [48] I just Ran two identical fit maelstroms through the last version of EFT and the new Dominion EFT. Results with arty, twice the alpha and more DPS (90 more with level 5s set). So I cant see why people are *****ing about this at all. You get twice the alpha and more DPS. Seems alright to me.
RougeOperator	Posted - 2009.12.03 05:35:00 - [49] Im looking forward to sniping panther gangs.
Enduros Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.12.03 07:13:00 - [50] Vargur works now. It really does. Honest! - If you find the post above offensive feel free to feel offended.
Psiri	Posted - 2009.12.03 07:30:00 - [51] Yea the Vargur should actually be able to justify its pricetag now. Also, the Phoon has become the new Mega of old.
LarcatOfRens	Posted - 2009.12.03 07:53:00 - [52] Originally by: Seriously Bored Originally by: Gamrikis You seem to be an angry type, what on earth makes someone in a game so angry? It's just word nerding, I'd brush it off. (Though he is correct.) I get the same way when I see "boni" instead of "bonuses"... Where the PHUQUE did that come from? Makes me want to tear my eyes out when ever I see it.
Andrea Griffin	Posted - 2009.12.03 09:00:00 - [53] Originally by: Seishi Maru Tell that to the first low sec gate camps we wrecked havoc yesterday with 8 tempests/maels warp in kill a battleship with 1 shot then gtfo. This man is doing it right. Minmatar have always supposed to be the type to zoom in, take a few shots, then run off again before they can take any serious damage, and with these new changes, they can finally do just that.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.12.03 09:25:00 - [54] My evaluation of the situation is that I finish Medium Projectiles V on Saturday morning.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.12.03 09:57:00 - [55] Edited by: Seishi Maru on 03/12/2009 10:02:23 Originally by: Gamrikis Originally by: Madner Kami Edited by: Madner Kami on 02/12/2009 23:51:22 Originally by: Gamrikis I am waiting for the complete realization that it was a lateral move for arties. It does nothing in the scope of large fleet battles other than hit and get the F*** out tactics that I will try to implament in the fleets I am in. I think the biggest problem is the tracking and range of arties is way to low.Don't get mad just get use to the fact that in fleet combat you will be a small anomily that most FC's will not try to fit into their plan. Hm, I doubt you realize how surprisingly unpleasent a sudden flanking squad of artillery ships can be (now again). Not to be rude but that unsupported accusation of what I do and don't know seems placed at random. So for all intensive purposes I will approach this by allowing you to explain yourself with logical supported application just how good/important a flanking squad will be. Explain the purpose, explain your escape plan and why you should do this with Minie ships. Understand that if we take a test sample of apocs and say that from the time they land at 100-140 from targets and the pilot clicks the warp button for a planet behind them, they can get off 3-4 shots minimum negating the so called boost to your beloved alpha. I love being proven wrong with strong facts so have at it. P.S. I don't like mock scenarios with no factual numbers at all, just unproven words. no they cannot! An apoc takes 9.7 seconds to lock a tempest when usign only range scripts for sensor boosters. TEmpets warp in.. click warp out and lock.. tempest takes 7.3 seconds to lock an apoc. Result tempests fire 1 salvo and wap out 2 seconds later. Apoc if incredibly well primed will fire 1 salvo..... doign 1/3 of the damage. Since the tempests are the ones warping in at their desired range. They can warp in at 60 km (ok that is realistic mostly in low sec than 0.0), with lock time on the sensor boosters and make the whoel thing not need even great precision and coordination by the minie pilots. Just follow the wing commander warp fleet command. People are already doign this.. and works, Obviously is nto pratical at a huge fleet size when even a single salvo form apocs or even rokhs is enough to insta pop something. But on smaller scales it allows for smaller forces to score a few hits for no losses. Its factual.. it works. No it will not clear the battlefield in your favor, will not hold any ground. But fits exactly minmatar role , of smaller forces causing attrition to a much more powerful enemy fleet. We still need to gather enough pilots to be able to insta pop a RR fit abaddon, but that will eventually happen as well.
Arestan Rising Sun Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.03 11:58:00 - [56] Originally by: Psiri Yea the Vargur should actually be able to justify its pricetag now. Also, the Phoon has become the new Mega of old. As a PVE boat, it does. Oh, how it does
Lindsay Logan	Posted - 2009.12.03 12:02:00 - [57] Originally by: Psiri Originally by: Sidus Isaacs More falloff is also a stealth gallente buff. For the ships that have lows to spare, mweh. I have already seen a few interesting build using TE on gallente BS. Sometimes more range means more dps then a Mag Stab
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2009.12.03 12:09:00 - [58] And to think that the stuff that made it into DOM is a severely reduced version of some of the things that was tested and requested by the "leet" Matari pilots .. Auto ships are so damn close to OP now it's scary
Durzel The Xenodus Initiative.	Posted - 2009.12.03 12:12:00 - [59] Seems like a pretty massive boost to high(er) sec suicide ganking too... some Typhoon fits I've seen are over 12k volley. In instances where you're only likely to get one volley off anyway stuff will just get wrecked.
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.12.03 12:12:00 - [60] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida And to think that the stuff that made it into DOM is a severely reduced version of some of the things that was tested and requested by the "leet" Matari pilots .. Auto ships are so damn close to OP now it's scary It certanly gave my gank cane new interesting life. So next whine topic is blasters?? :) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html

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