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CCP fails at moving people to 0.0

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Karadan Kaarwen	Posted - 2009.12.08 16:12:00 - [121] What the OP seems to forget is that lvl 4 missions are ****ING BORING!!! Once you hop into a marauder, almost all lvl 4 missions can be spanked in 20 mins or under, rinse and repeat. At least 0.0 space is fun. Stop freaking whining and play the damn game as you wish.
Irida Mershkov Gallente Honour Before Death	Posted - 2009.12.08 16:18:00 - [122] Originally by: Aqriue Originally by: Marko Riva Edited by: Marko Riva on 08/12/2009 02:39:02 I'm sorry, I had this odd idea that this was a pvp game and moreso an MMO, so where I got the audacity to think that it should be about pvp and interaction I don't know. Being able to play solo in an MMO and evade pvp in a pvp game and actually being rewarded for this playstyle in regards of isk/effort clearly is the right way to go. I want to /wrist myself with a spork Grow up, you're not twelve.
Kiri Serrensun	Posted - 2009.12.08 16:43:00 - [123] Originally by: Jojo Jackson Rookie start exploring EvE. Rookie likes to see the "dangures" space. Rookie get ganged behind the first gate out of highsec. Rookie never again want to explore low-/no-sec. Pretty much this. My first two experiences with lowsec involved getting shredded by far better equipped and more numerous ships. This was PVP? It didn't seem particularly fun to be instalocked, scrambled, webbed, ECM'd, neuted and killed without firing a shot. So I concluded that I couldn't have fun PVP at a low skill level, and I'd plainly need a whole lot more money, gear and skills, not to mention jump clones. All of which required mission grind. I got past that eventually (mainly through becoming sick of missions), but a lot of "hardcore carebears" are only doing what other players have taught them to do--stick where you have a chance of winning and / or actually doing something in a fight.
Janie Suspect	Posted - 2009.12.08 16:49:00 - [124] Believe it or not, some people hate PVP and enjoy running missions or mining with corp mates. Low/Null sec do not provide enough incentives or protections to bring players out there. Small corps would not stand a chance of ever controlling and holding space. And who wants to deal with alliance politics anyways...
Lady Katrana Wild Jokers	Posted - 2009.12.08 16:53:00 - [125] I don't think CCP intended a mass migration from high sec as the end result of dominion. Even if 0.0 rewards are vastly increased (holding risk the same as it is) in comparison to high sec lvl4s the population of Motsu will not suddenly pick up and move to PR-. Funny tho it may be if they did. There is a difference in the way that 0.0 residents and high sec lvl4 runners see the game and what they want to get out of it.
Davina Braben	Posted - 2009.12.08 16:55:00 - [126] CCP have said they accept that some people just like pootling around doing L4s. I think the point of dominion was to get more PVP oriented empire corps into 0.0s.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.12.08 17:07:00 - [127] Originally by: Lady Katrana I don't think CCP intended a mass migration from high sec as the end result of dominion. No, that was pretty much the goal stated at fanfest. Whether it was a realistic goal is a different matter, but the intention was clear. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
D3F4ULT Gallente	Posted - 2009.12.08 17:08:00 - [128] Edited by: D3F4ULT on 08/12/2009 17:10:31 The way CCP is trying to get people to move down to 0.0 is like taxing rich people IRL. They find other things to buy, now when I use this analogy I'm saying, "Tax us for something we HAVE to buy" Make us go to 0.0 if you want us to experience 0.0. How? Put something of necessity to all players in 0.0 and take it out of empire. May be not the greatest idea, maybe should be left alone, all in all it's the only way to 'make' players experience null sec and to get the flow moving even more.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2009.12.08 17:09:00 - [129] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Spacemanc I've only been playing for a few months - why would I want to risk my currently small pile of ISK, and my precious implants by going to 0.0? Why wouldn't you? I did just that when I started playing. Started Sept 06, was in 0.0 by the end of Nov 06. I could maybe have made more ISK by staying in hi-sec and grinding missions but I dont play games just for the purpose of making e-money. And actually I made plenty plenty ISK relative to my character age. There are Lots of opportunities in 0.0 for even very new players if you keep your eyes open and are prepared to risk a cheap ship. Oh yeah And I've been wearing +4s since whenever it was the LP stores were introduced. Mar 07? Around then, anyway. And +3s before that. Not losing your pod is easier than people make out. That is awesome. Congratulations. You play the game how YOU want to and like to play it. Could you now show the rest the same courtesy? Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Durzel The Xenodus Initiative.	Posted - 2009.12.08 17:11:00 - [130] Edited by: Durzel on 08/12/2009 17:12:17 Originally by: Vadimik Edited by: Vadimik on 08/12/2009 14:15:28 Originally by: Durzel If everything else remained the same (i.e. cost of modules, etc) and L4s were just moved to lowsec or the payouts nerfed very few if any people currently running them in Motsu et al would go there. Most likely they'd just quit instead, in droves. Let me put it straight, you say that: There are players who play just to earn isk running missions in Motsu and who have nothing better in eve to do to the point of quiting should level 4's profitability be nerfed? And they want that isk... exaclty why, to buy next tier of pimp onto their CNR's to run missions in motsu even faster? Well, ok, let's assume those players actually exist. Level 4's are nerfed and they quit. Now, the question: who cares? Their leaving will only serve to reduce server loads and (maybe) lower faction and officer prices, because they never interacted with other players (except, maybe, ninja salvagers) anyways. There are most definitely people playing Eve who just want to buy the next best shiny mod or ship, and then strive for the next shiny thing to buy, repeat ad infinitum. Call it completionist mentality or whatever - it's basically the same in all MMOs, people grinding to get the next shiny thing that makes 5% difference to their efficiency. Rallying against that mentality is just pointless unless you just want to remove thousands of subscriptions from the game. Also officer mods will always cost exponentially more than faction/T2 stuff because of how rare the spawns are. Removing carebears from the game would simply mean that the only people that would buy them are supercap and titan pilots - as it would be insane to use them day-in-day-out in casual PvP when they offer such a small bonus to efficiency at 1000x cost. The point I was trying to make is that mission runners buy deadspace/officer gear, and miners - often next in line for scorn from purists - are the ones mining away 23/7 to make the stuff you buy for PvP vaguely affordable. You can't "kill" either of these groups of people without having a drastic knockon effect - it's a symbiotic relationship. It's largely academic anyway because CCP wouldn't annihilate over half their subscriber base to placate a few narrow-minded griefers who only want these people to go to low/null so they can gank them anyway.

QuelAlt	Posted - 2009.12.08 17:12:00 - [131] I have to say, I'm so glad that real life isn't like EVE. If I had to listen to artists *****ing every day about how they make less than programmers, and how programmers aren't real people unless they quit their jobs and make art, and how it's actually harder to get a fine art degree than a computer science degree, and how dare society force artists to work real jobs to support their art, I don't think I could take it. If you enjoy nullspace, go live in nullspace, shut up, and deal with the fact that other people are making more money than you. If you enjoy making money, go play penny games in Jita, shut up, and deal with the fact that other people are getting more pewpew than you.
Esk Esme Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.12.08 17:16:00 - [132] Alot of 0.0 pvper's use alts to run lvl 4's nurf lvl 4's and you nurf alot 0.0 pvper's income for ships thus reducing numbers in 0.0 lets face it ratting sux mineing well it needs a slab of beer plexing cool if find right 1 TBH thing that needs nurfing is whineing punks on side note its sandbox players can live were they want to and do what they want not everyone wants to be a lemming in the napfest that is 0.0 my english sux sue me
Khanstruct	Posted - 2009.12.08 17:17:00 - [133] I have ~3M sp and would like to move out to 0.0 to pvp. But I cant afford to to replace ships/implants. From what I have seen most 0.0 corps require at least 10M sp minimum maybe more and I'm not about to move out to 0.0 solo to get stomped in my t1 ship. I wouldn't even play this game if I didn't have RL friends that did because I will never catch up to older accounts and it seems rather daunting.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.12.08 17:25:00 - [134] Originally by: Khanstruct I have ~3M sp and would like to move out to 0.0 to pvp. But I cant afford to to replace ships/implants. At that level, the replacement cost will be peanuts and you should have no problem finding someone to sponsor you. Quote: From what I have seen most 0.0 corps require at least 10M sp minimum maybe more and I'm not about to move out to 0.0 solo to get stomped in my t1 ship. You're going to get stomped no matter what you're in – T1 ships is the best kind since they'll teach you all you need to know at minimal cost. Let me repeat that: you will be stomped, and the one crucial lesson you need to learn is that it's ok. The SP requirement is most often there to weed out spy alts and to measure time (the assumption being that more time = more knowledge of mechanics). Strike a balance between the two – show that you know what you're doing or that you're willing to learn, without coming of as a spy who knows more than someone that new should know – and you should have no problems. Quote: I wouldn't even play this game if I didn't have RL friends that did because I will never catch up to older accounts and it seems rather daunting. …and thus we come to the second most crucial lesson you need to learn: "catching up" does not apply to EVE. It comes from a class/level-based thinking that has nothing to do with how EVE works. It is trivial to catch up with older players, and it has nothing to do with your total SP. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Spacemanc	Posted - 2009.12.08 17:32:00 - [135] Originally by: Tippia àand thus we come to the second most crucial lesson you need to learn: "catching up" does not apply to EVE. It comes from a class/level-based thinking that has nothing to do with how EVE works. It is trivial to catch up with older players, and it has nothing to do with your total SP. I think you've forgotten what its like to be new in Eve with 3m SP and a tiny amount of ISK. Also alot of newish players have implants in all the time (120 mill for a full set of +4) - Trust me - they aren't easily bought, and they aren't easily replaced. I'd love to do more PvP and explore 0.0, but I'm not stupid! I'll do it when the time is right.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.12.08 17:42:00 - [136] Edited by: Tippia on 08/12/2009 17:42:51 Originally by: Spacemanc I think you've forgotten what its like to be new in Eve with 3m SP and a tiny amount of ISK. No, I remember: fun as hell! Everything is worth trying and losses are still minimal. Quote: Also alot of newish players have implants in all the time (120 mill for a full set of +4) - Trust me - they aren't easily bought, and they aren't easily replaced. …because they believe the game is a race to get the SP and to "catch up", which as mentioned is a gross misunderstanding of how the game works. Drop the +4s – you don't need them – and go have fun. Quote: I'd love to do more PvP and explore 0.0, but I'm not stupid! I'll do it when the time is right. The time is right when you have nothing to lose, which is very early on. If you've already fallen into the "must have +4s" and "must have SP" trap, then it's already too late and the time will never be right. The longer you wait, the less the chances are that you'll get there. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Oriss Intaki	Posted - 2009.12.08 17:42:00 - [137] Here's the problems with nosec: The Alliances. I was in a small PVP corp based in highsec. We had tons of fun running out into lowsec and ganking pirates. One day, we got into a decent nosec alliance. They didn't want to help us out at all. However, we were used to PVPing with cruisers and frigs on our own, so we managed. Then the war came. Many of us lost quite a bit of assets. I was forced to take a break shortly after that, and came back a year later. Now, when I started back, I had hardly any money and only my probing helios and some jumpclones full of sexy implants made it out alive from the siege. Poor planning on my part, but I had assumed that we were pretty safe in our area. I had to start back again. Now that I've gotten a BC t2 fit to run missions in, I'm looking to join nosec PVP again. The problem is, NO ALLIANCES WANT ME. How can we move out to nosec, when it's all controlled by megacorps that won't take us lone guys? How can we move in? There is no way in hell we could make a corp in highsec and push into nosec without getting decimated. The next issue is that this isn't a PVP game. This game is touted as a sandbox. It isn't a "move everything to nosec pvp" game. You can trade in highsec, mine in highsec, mission in highsec, wardec and FW in highsec, or you can join the lawless ones who live on misfortune in nosec. I'd actually say this game is touted more as a highsec game than a nosec game, especially since that is where most of the players reside. So instead of trying to screw over the majority of the players in this game and take everything to nosec with you, how about you make a jumpclone like everyone else and quit whining? CCP goes where the money is, and if the majority of players like highsec stuff, it's here to stay.
D3F4ULT Gallente	Posted - 2009.12.08 17:43:00 - [138] Move lvl 4's to 0.0! =D
Oriss Intaki	Posted - 2009.12.08 17:53:00 - [139] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Khanstruct I have ~3M sp and would like to move out to 0.0 to pvp. But I cant afford to to replace ships/implants. At that level, the replacement cost will be peanuts and you should have no problem finding someone to sponsor you. Quote: From what I have seen most 0.0 corps require at least 10M sp minimum maybe more and I'm not about to move out to 0.0 solo to get stomped in my t1 ship. You're going to get stomped no matter what you're in – T1 ships is the best kind since they'll teach you all you need to know at minimal cost. Let me repeat that: you will be stomped, and the one crucial lesson you need to learn is that it's ok. The SP requirement is most often there to weed out spy alts and to measure time (the assumption being that more time = more knowledge of mechanics). Strike a balance between the two – show that you know what you're doing or that you're willing to learn, without coming of as a spy who knows more than someone that new should know – and you should have no problems. Quote: I wouldn't even play this game if I didn't have RL friends that did because I will never catch up to older accounts and it seems rather daunting. …and thus we come to the second most crucial lesson you need to learn: "catching up" does not apply to EVE. It comes from a class/level-based thinking that has nothing to do with how EVE works. It is trivial to catch up with older players, and it has nothing to do with your total SP. This. I never thought about this, but low SP players are quite valuable to nosec. Their clones and ships are inexpensive. They are expendable, and easy to finance. Hmm. Shall we make a nosec corp open to all SP and try to push into nosec from highsec? Just make a jump clone kiddes and leave your implants at home.
Boink'urr Minmatar Wasserette De Tarthorst	Posted - 2009.12.08 17:58:00 - [140] Originally by: D3F4ULT Move lvl 4's to 0.0! =D I see what you did there

Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.12.08 18:09:00 - [141] These threads are silly. Eve provides a big galaxy with many options for activities and each person decides what suits them. Whether it's high-sec, low-sec, or 0.0 people are where they want to be. I wouldn't matter to me if L4 missions were worth 12 times the amount of isk they are now and I was given a shiney new ship of impervious mission completion - I would never consider leaving null sec to run missions. Why? I like it out here. People are already where they want to be. I don't understand what people gain from whining when other people's choices are different from their own.
Khanstruct	Posted - 2009.12.08 18:11:00 - [142] Originally by: Oriss Intaki Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Khanstruct I have ~3M sp and would like to move out to 0.0 to pvp. But I cant afford to to replace ships/implants. At that level, the replacement cost will be peanuts and you should have no problem finding someone to sponsor you. Quote: From what I have seen most 0.0 corps require at least 10M sp minimum maybe more and I'm not about to move out to 0.0 solo to get stomped in my t1 ship. You're going to get stomped no matter what you're in û T1 ships is the best kind since they'll teach you all you need to know at minimal cost. Let me repeat that: you will be stomped, and the one crucial lesson you need to learn is that it's ok. The SP requirement is most often there to weed out spy alts and to measure time (the assumption being that more time = more knowledge of mechanics). Strike a balance between the two û show that you know what you're doing or that you're willing to learn, without coming of as a spy who knows more than someone that new should know û and you should have no problems. Quote: I wouldn't even play this game if I didn't have RL friends that did because I will never catch up to older accounts and it seems rather daunting. àand thus we come to the second most crucial lesson you need to learn: "catching up" does not apply to EVE. It comes from a class/level-based thinking that has nothing to do with how EVE works. It is trivial to catch up with older players, and it has nothing to do with your total SP. This. I never thought about this, but low SP players are quite valuable to nosec. Their clones and ships are inexpensive. They are expendable, and easy to finance. Hmm. Shall we make a nosec corp open to all SP and try to push into nosec from highsec? Just make a jump clone kiddes and leave your implants at home. A lot of the corp recruitment posts require being able to fly HAC's/Battleships with tech 2 guns. Ok see you in a few months while I play evemon online I guess lol.
Junko Togawa Caldari	Posted - 2009.12.08 18:21:00 - [143] Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri These threads are silly. Eve provides a big galaxy with many options for activities and each person decides what suits them. Whether it's high-sec, low-sec, or 0.0 people are where they want to be. I wouldn't matter to me if L4 missions were worth 12 times the amount of isk they are now and I was given a shiney new ship of impervious mission completion - I would never consider leaving null sec to run missions. Why? I like it out here. People are already where they want to be. I don't understand what people gain from whining when other people's choices are different from their own. QFMFT. Personally, I come to the forums for one reason: entertainment. To me it's just a way to get some lulz tossing trolls and smack around and reading the epic tears of SRS BIZNES posters. But I digress. +1 Internets to you, sir. You are most assuredly Doing It Rite as far as EVE goes, i.e. the way YOU want to without trying to force it on everyone else.
zarlack coldhand	Posted - 2009.12.08 18:21:00 - [144] From What I have been reading here seems like a bunch of players are just looking for easy kills. Lure a Low sp player out to 0.0 or Force them there as some have suggested.
Rascael Rascaels	Posted - 2009.12.08 18:22:00 - [145] Level 4 missions are boring as is. If you nerf them , the ones flying them are just going to quit. From all the comments on this subject, this seems to be the desired result. I have been around for some time and am bored with lev4's as it is, I sure as hell am not gonna run them if they are cheaper and am not going to bring my shiny CNR into lowsec for the shts n giggles of gankers. I don't have time for the crap that goes on in 0.0 nor lowsec, that may be your thing, but don't force me to play YOUR way. Easier to just biomass and find a new game if thats the result everyone is looking for.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.12.08 18:28:00 - [146] Originally by: Rascael Level 4 missions are boring as is. If you nerf them , the ones flying them are just going to quit. What if they were "nerfed" so that they produced rather less ISK and much more fun?
Kalexander	Posted - 2009.12.08 18:31:00 - [147] Theirs a couple of questions I want to ask people because it doesn't seem to come up in these threads often enough... Who the heck really enjoys logging in, and chain running level 4 missions all day long for bajillions of isks? These threads always make it sound like thats what people do, but i just don't believe it because its the most boring thing in the entire world, i can't imagine anyone getting anything out of it as far as "FUN" goes (even mining seems more possible to me). Sure people do a couple of missions a night maybe, but really, chain running 24/7? who can stomach it and look at themselves in the mirror anymore? Who binge runs missions exclusively and considers it "THE REASON THEY PLAY EVE" in and of itself? Additionally, I want to ask what these level 4mission runners spend their isk on after they buy out the pimpest of pimp run ships? Do they just collect isk for the sake of it forever and ever? I also want to ask, what people think the comparison is for the guy who chain runs missions all day and isn't a bot, wallet size is, and how that compares to the fattest of null sec moon mining tychons wallet. For the sake of discussion, should null sec people hit up their executor CEO for cash from time to time?
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2009.12.08 18:37:00 - [148] Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 08/12/2009 18:39:12 Originally by: Kalexander Additionally, I want to ask what these level 4mission runners spend their isk on after they buy out the pimpest of pimp run ships? Do they just collect isk for the sake of it forever and ever? The same could be asked of those that collect killmails. OR those that collect "tears". Or those that collect space for their alliances with the sole intent of dominating Eve. In short, if someone wants to run missions all day WHO ARE YOU TO ***** AND WHINE THAT THEY CAN'T? Who are you to say that isn't and shouldn't be fun to them? Play the game how you want and stop having fits on how others play the game. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Jack bubu Lyonesse. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.12.08 18:40:00 - [149] For all those who decline that there is an issue with lvl 4 income http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1210267/page/37#1103 Thats the proof that even CCP admits that there is indeed an issue ;)
Kalexander	Posted - 2009.12.08 18:43:00 - [150] Another thing I wanted to ask for discussion is in regards to the whole "bigger picture" of an economy... Is stability the chief reason why level 4 missions are the best source of income in the game? I mean, if you nerf money down to about what level 3's are for example, does that become the new "baseline" of the entire game (after markets adjust) where that, anything else you do in a volatile regions becomes "not as good" as level 3's? I could totally see that happening because it is in fact, the instability of low sec and null sec that determines the oppertunity costs their being to high. You could argue, that the more lucrative you make it, the more dangerous it will just become because it will attract more trouble, pirates, gankers to stop you from doing it to the point where you have to turn back and go to a place like high sec to make a steady income again. I mean if you look around the world today, you can't go to a volatile, war torn region, where day to day security is in question and ask them how much money they are making. You will be lucky if the average person can feed themselves. You could argue, that in these regions their are opportunities for warlords etc. to make huge ammounts of cash through exploit, but this would be more comparable to null sec moon miners or something (the small lucky minority etc.). Fact is, conflict bleeds money, security breads it. Do you think that is plausible to happen if we nerf level 4 income?



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