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Minmatar Freedom
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
8
   |
Posted - 2012.06.28 18:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
One of the most common complaints I see regarding why hi-sec miners are ganked is a lack of self protection; "Protect yourselves and we wouldn't kill you."
Setting aside for a moment that making most mining ships gank-resistant is not realistic (especially when you've got multiple people attacking you), this ignores the primary tactic used by gankers and it's a tactic that has a rich history in EVE.
Colliding with ships to knock them out of alignment for warping, otherwise known as "bumping." At present there is no defense against this in EVE. And with an extremely cheap frigate and rat loot, I can easily get a ship to go upwards of 3,200 m/s which is usually fast enough to hit a barge spinning up it's warp drive.
Observe:
With a basic frigate and rat loot, I can get a ship up to 3,200 m/s and I'm sure with more skills and a bigger investment, you could easily double that speed.
Your average belt is ~60km from tip to to tip
An aligned and unfitted Hulk, from a dead stop, takes ~17 seconds to spin up it's warp drive and go into warp. If other people have different numbers based on skills/implants/modules, feel free to post it.
Assuming the Hulk is sitting at one end of the belt and a ganker (flying the aforementioned 3,200 m/s) in a bump craft warps in at the other end, the ganker can reach the Hulk in just under 19 seconds.
So the Hulk has about three seconds to see this ship and start warping, again ignoring that a better gank fit ship can go faster. Once the Hulk has been bumped, the gank ship (which has not done anything to be flagged by CONCORD and thus can do this with impunity) sends out the call to his partner(s) who warp in and destroy the Hulk.
The bumper keeps the Hulk from warping and the time involved means virtually no tank a mining ship can fit will hold up. The last information I received regarding CONCORD's response time was 25-30 seconds for a .5-.6 system. If that's out of date, feel free to update.
Math is admittedly not my strong suit, so feel free to double check.
TLDR: You cant protect against bumping. |
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
The Irukandji
556
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 18:16:00 -
[2] - Quote
Minmatar Freedom wrote:
TLDR: You cant protect against bumping.
Because shooting unarmed*, untanked ships is too hard for some people.
*And don't give me that crap about drones, by the time the drones start shooting the hulk is usually dead. |
Cpt Roghie
23
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 18:18:00 -
[3] - Quote
Uhm... I fail to see the point. Are you moaning about bumping being OP, do you want it nerfed... Are you simply stating a point? I'm lost.
Zzzzzzzz.
|
Jayrendo Karr
Suns Of Korhal
Terran Commonwealth
180
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 18:19:00 -
[4] - Quote
they can just log off. |
Minmatar Freedom
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 18:19:00 -
[5] - Quote
Cpt Roghie wrote:Uhm... I fail to see the point. Are you moaning about bumping being OP, do you want it nerfed... Are you simply stating a point? I'm lost.
I'm stating a point.
The argument that "if miners just protected themselves, they wouldn't get shot" is irrelevant because there's no way to protect yourself once bumping gets involved. |
baltec1
1556
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 18:22:00 -
[6] - Quote
Minmatar Freedom wrote:Cpt Roghie wrote:Uhm... I fail to see the point. Are you moaning about bumping being OP, do you want it nerfed... Are you simply stating a point? I'm lost. I'm stating a point. The argument that "if miners just protected themselves, they wouldn't get shot" is irrelevant because there's no way to protect yourself once bumping gets involved.
Enter warp before they manage to get the bump?
Also fit a tank. |
Kyle Ward
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
139
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 18:25:00 -
[7] - Quote
Minmatar Freedom wrote:Cpt Roghie wrote:Uhm... I fail to see the point. Are you moaning about bumping being OP, do you want it nerfed... Are you simply stating a point? I'm lost. I'm stating a point. The argument that "if miners just protected themselves, they wouldn't get shot" is irrelevant because there's no way to protect yourself once bumping gets involved.
Miners arent suppose to protect themselves, their suppose to pay the goonies for a mining pass...
The Sandbox, you're playing it wrong! |
Josef Djugashvilis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
337
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 18:27:00 -
[8] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Minmatar Freedom wrote:Cpt Roghie wrote:Uhm... I fail to see the point. Are you moaning about bumping being OP, do you want it nerfed... Are you simply stating a point? I'm lost. I'm stating a point. The argument that "if miners just protected themselves, they wouldn't get shot" is irrelevant because there's no way to protect yourself once bumping gets involved. Enter warp before they manage to get the bump? Also fit a tank.
Please feel free to post this mythical gank proof fit for Hulks.
You want fries with that? |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1134
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 18:29:00 -
[9] - Quote
You might want to talk to James315 about that.
He's been extorting ice miners (long cycle, has to finish) by threatening to bump. Supposedly, he's made 100mil between starting and his first post about it.
Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
baltec1
1556
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 18:35:00 -
[10] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Please feel free to post this mythical gank proof fit for Hulks.
Coveter gets the same tank as most cruisers and is impossible for a destroyer to gank.
Hulk gets a tank in the same class as heavy assault ships.
If you cant tank these things then you have bigger issues at play here. |
Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
62
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 18:41:00 -
[11] - Quote
Minmatar Freedom wrote:
I'm stating a point.
The argument that "if miners just protected themselves, they wouldn't get shot" is irrelevant because there's no way to protect yourself once bumping gets involved.
Mining while aligned at 3/4 speed = instant warp when you hit the warp to button. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
Comic Mischief
773
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:28:00 -
[12] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:baltec1 wrote:Minmatar Freedom wrote:Cpt Roghie wrote:Uhm... I fail to see the point. Are you moaning about bumping being OP, do you want it nerfed... Are you simply stating a point? I'm lost. I'm stating a point. The argument that "if miners just protected themselves, they wouldn't get shot" is irrelevant because there's no way to protect yourself once bumping gets involved. Enter warp before they manage to get the bump? Also fit a tank. Please feel free to post this mythical gank proof fit for Hulks.
It does not have to be gank proof, just good enough that the gankers go for someone else.
http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
|
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
3956
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:34:00 -
[13] - Quote
Siege.
|
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Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:37:00 -
[14] - Quote
"Bumping" should cause massive hull and armor damage proportional to the mass of the ships involved. The whole bump mechanic makes ships feel like plastic kiddie toys. |
Ituhata
The Scope
Gallente Federation
33
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:39:00 -
[15] - Quote
Minmatar Freedom wrote:Cpt Roghie wrote:Uhm... I fail to see the point. Are you moaning about bumping being OP, do you want it nerfed... Are you simply stating a point? I'm lost. I'm stating a point. The argument that "if miners just protected themselves, they wouldn't get shot" is irrelevant because there's no way to protect yourself once bumping gets involved.
Gettin' really tired of telling people to make 4 point bookmarks around the asteroid they are mining and to just keep aligning to them in a box around your roid. You see em on overview, takes a split second and suddenly you're 320k off the belt and now you have plenty of time to align to safety. |
leviticus ander
CATO.nss
185
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:49:00 -
[16] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:"Bumping" should cause massive hull and armor damage proportional to the mass of the ships involved. The whole bump mechanic makes ships feel like plastic kiddie toys.
yes, lets buff winmatar even more. and make gallente entirely useless. |
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
68
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 20:58:00 -
[17] - Quote
Minmatar Freedom wrote:Cpt Roghie wrote:Uhm... I fail to see the point. Are you moaning about bumping being OP, do you want it nerfed... Are you simply stating a point? I'm lost. I'm stating a point. The argument that "if miners just protected themselves, they wouldn't get shot" is irrelevant because there's no way to protect yourself once bumping gets involved.
Yes there is. Mine in a gang with protection.
This game is meant to be social, and as I already proved, solo miners are better off doing mining missions anyways (And even most gangs in highsec).
Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
68
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:11:00 -
[18] - Quote
Ptraci wrote:
*And don't give me that crap about drones, by the time the drones start shooting the hulk is usually dead.
Not if they are permadeployed sentry drones and stasis drones. Wait, that would lower your mining yield? Then risk a gank and maximize yield.
Maximum yield = maximum risk is how it should always work.
The problem with all these threads is that all the problems bought up, have proven, well-worn solutions in the current mechanic for them.
In other words, the mechanics allow for a fighting chance to those who take time and skill to master them and a willing to understand and adapt to the simple idea that the more you maximize yield, the more you risk ganking.
Does it take training and skilling up? Yes.
Is it hard? Yes.
Is it doable? Yes.
I would support any change to the mechanic that unbalances the ability of a miner to defend and protect themselves from attack. What I cannot support, and keep seeing, is changes in the mechanic for which there are already solutions in the same mechanic.
In PvP, the same tradeoff is present. If you up tank, you have to lower DPS, and vice-versa. And the same type of tears are cried by PvPers who want both gank and tank.
At the core, it is about players that refuse to immerse themselves in the complexities and balances required out of the mechanic, and want everything handed to them in silver platter. And they want to always win. If we had a mechanic in which everyone won, and no one lost, there would be no game.
Think about it...
Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
Charles Baker
Federal Mineral Acquisition
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 21:48:00 -
[19] - Quote
Fit an MWD to your hulk, Bump the frig first then warp-out while it tries to line up for another run, if it scrams fit modules to counter it. |
Deuce of Hearts
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 22:32:00 -
[20] - Quote
I thought CCP was already planning to redo all the mining ships for the winter expansion, specifically to address these kinds of issues. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8271
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 22:36:00 -
[21] - Quote
Minmatar Freedom wrote:TLDR: You cant protect against bumping. Short claim deserves short answer:
Incorrect.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
127
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 22:38:00 -
[22] - Quote
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
Is it doable? Yes.
Numbers, please?
Not that I doubt you personally, but there are lots of things claimed as universal truths around here that really reflect only the most narrow of circumstances. |
Josef Djugashvilis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
338
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 22:48:00 -
[23] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:baltec1 wrote:Minmatar Freedom wrote:Cpt Roghie wrote:Uhm... I fail to see the point. Are you moaning about bumping being OP, do you want it nerfed... Are you simply stating a point? I'm lost. I'm stating a point. The argument that "if miners just protected themselves, they wouldn't get shot" is irrelevant because there's no way to protect yourself once bumping gets involved. Enter warp before they manage to get the bump? Also fit a tank. Please feel free to post this mythical gank proof fit for Hulks. It does not have to be gank proof, just good enough that the gankers go for someone else.
A Hulk simply cannot be made gank proof.
The gankers can just bring one more ship to the party. In fact, one could argue that a well fit Hulk could just make them more determined to gank said Hulk.
There is nothing wrong with ganking Hulks. What is foolish is to pretend that it is the fault of the miner for not fitting his ship correctly.
You want fries with that? |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
57
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 22:49:00 -
[24] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:baltec1 wrote:Minmatar Freedom wrote:Cpt Roghie wrote:Uhm... I fail to see the point. Are you moaning about bumping being OP, do you want it nerfed... Are you simply stating a point? I'm lost. I'm stating a point. The argument that "if miners just protected themselves, they wouldn't get shot" is irrelevant because there's no way to protect yourself once bumping gets involved. Enter warp before they manage to get the bump? Also fit a tank. Please feel free to post this mythical gank proof fit for Hulks.
[Hulk x2]
High Slots:
Stuff
Low Slots:
Stuff
Rigs:
CPU stuff
Midslots:
4x Meta 4 webs.
Mining aligned at 6m/s
-RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8271
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 22:50:00 -
[25] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:A Hulk simply cannot be made gank proof. It can be made just as gank proof as any other ship.
Quote:The gankers can just bring one more ship to the party. No, they can't, because if they do, they will not be able to afford their habit (not to mention that, contrary to popular victim belief, they are limited by simple numbers).
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
57
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 22:52:00 -
[26] - Quote
Malphilos wrote:Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
Is it doable? Yes.
Numbers, please? Not that I doubt you personally, but there are lots of things claimed as universal truths around here that really reflect only the most narrow of circumstances.
Align up, Align Left, Align Down, Align Right, repeat.
5 steps.
-RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
417
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 22:54:00 -
[27] - Quote
Irrelevant, 17 seconds is more then enough time to kill a hulk.
This comes up from time to time mainly about frigates bumping capitals, never heard of anyone taking this argument down the hulk path before.
It all comes down to extra server power to do calculations for something that doesn't add enough to the game to bother with.
A - you remove bumping
B - you add in damage based on PE & KE.
EVERYBODY KNOWS |
Josef Djugashvilis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
338
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 22:55:00 -
[28] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:A Hulk simply cannot be made gank proof. It can be made just as gank proof as any other ship. Quote:The gankers can just bring one more ship to the party. No, they can't, because if they do, they will not be able to afford their habit (not to mention that, contrary to popular victim belief, there are a limited number of them).
I have never suggested that a Hulk can, or should be gank proof.
Yes they can - most ganking is done for fun, any profit is just a bonus.
You want fries with that? |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
57
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 22:55:00 -
[29] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
A Hulk simply cannot be made gank proof.
The gankers can just bring one more ship to the party. In fact, one could argue that a well fit Hulk could just make them more determined to gank said Hulk.
There is nothing wrong with ganking Hulks. What is foolish is to pretend that it is the fault of the miner for not fitting his ship correctly.
That's true of Every single ship in the game (that can be found in HS for tautological reasons). The wrong question to ask is "Can it be ganked" because the answer is yes (but so can my 1m EHP [1.7m vs Quake] Damnation). The right question is "Can it be ganked profitably. And a properly fit Hulk cannot be ganked profitably (in .5 it's a breakeven proposition). A properly fit Hulk that's properly supported is unprofitable anywhere.
-RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8271
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 22:58:00 -
[30] - Quote
Simetraz wrote:Irrelevant, 17 seconds is more then enough time to kill a hulk. Incorrect. Killing a tanked Hulk in 17 seconds requires a damage output of ~2000 DPS, which costs a bit to generateGǪ
GǪand of course, there's nothing to say that they'll have as much as 17 seconds.
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:I have never suggested that a Hulk can, or should be gank proof. Then stop bringing it up as an argument. It's foolish to not tank your Hulk, when it's a simple measure that goes a long way to protect the ship.
Quote:Yes they can - most ganking is done for fun, any profit is just a bonus. GǪso they'll pick a target that is sure to blow up. I.e. not the tanked Hulk.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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