Sigh.............already a post on SDing a few threads down. Please use some common sense and check to see if there is a recent previous thread on the subject you are posting about.

...Just those who don't care about your pathetic problem cba to post in your pathetic thread.

Sigh.............already a post on SDing a few threads down. Please use some common sense and check to see if there is a recent previous thread on the subject you are posting about.

I'm posting about suicide not being recorded as a kill. (I suppose technically it is but I for one would endeavour to create the games longest list of API verified suicides). This is a game about homicide not suicide, why record suicides (I can only imagine PvPers would agree with me on this, being PvPers, not Pers). That other thread read like a bunch of whines about people wanting non-kill related information recorded in killmails and a feature addition/change suggestion. So You could even argue it's in the wrong section.

So lets look at this situation, SD'ing ships in a POS while someone drums on your bubble. No record is generated. You are: -
In a station (pretty much)
You were fired upon on your way there.
No killmail is generated.

In a similar situation you are in NPC nullsec, you are fired upon but dock before destroyed. You decide to trash your ship because you are being camped. No killmail is generated. Why not? it has taken damage almost immediately before from another party and you explicitly request your ship to be destroyed and leave nothing behind. Should this generate a killmail? If not why not?

To look at causation, you are being fired upon and very slowly dying so rather than sit there for 2 hours whilst they slowly kill you you decide to end their suffering and SD. ...Snipped remaining causation blather.

Because by docking you have satisfied 2 game mechanics already in place. First, you would have had to wait out your aggression timer to dock. And more importantly, you would have had a session change by docking.

The session change is important, as it is already a mechanic that deals with this. For example, I engage someone on a gate. They almost kill me but I jump through the gate. On the other side someone else finishes me off. In this instance the first person does not get on the killmail because of the session change.

So not having a killmail would still be consistent with current game mechanics.

Nut up or shut up.
People who SD in combat are the lowest form of coward in EVE.

This game is not all about combat and the actions of a target are not all about the aggressor.

The common misconception is that the reason for the target to self-destruct is to deny the aggressor a killmail. However, when I self-destruct a Strategic Cruiser, I'm self-destructing to protect my skill points and not give away a perfectly repairable ship.
The aggressors and his precious killmail are irrelevant to me

IF someone does indeed self-destructing only to deny the aggressor a killmail, it is just another form of grieving. There are many forms of grieving in EVE, it is just that usually the aggressor is on the delivering, instead of on the receiving side.

So, the tears about not receiving a killmail are no different from the tears from suicide ganked miners. Not getting what you want, or losing what you have, is part of EVE. It is what sets this game apart from your average cuddly MMO.

I want you to imagine for a moment, you are shooting a Drednought in your battle badger. He has no modules fitted and you have enough ammo to keep going til he dies. Suddenly the ship explodes in front of you. You check your combat log but nothing appears. There is no record of you catching this guy with his pants down, utterly embarrased him and would have dealt over a million dmg using just a badger.

Instead the pilot decided to blow his ship up. He knew what the outcome was and took steps to deny you the ship and it's contents. A perfectly legitimate tactic (hey I hear you fannies moaning it's a sandbox all the time). The last person to decisively determine the fate of the ship is it's pilot. just shooting at him doesn't make it your kill does it? It doesn't give you the right to any prestige for damaging a guys ship that exploded of it's own accord surely?

If you happen to be taking a wh and surround their POS, they decide to deny you everything they have these are not your kills. You have not caused a single one of them. Should you choose to argue causation; "Yeah but I send my pixels at him which made him asplode his pixels." Well maybe I should record my debit card transaction to CCP in my killmails, you know, if I wasn't paying the sub I wouldn't ever explode would I?

You have driven them out. They have lost their asset(s). If you have not blown them up why do you think you deserve a killmail?

Don't ever claim the majority in a forum, because more than likely. You are not. Just those who don't care about your pathetic problem cba to post in your pathetic thread.

Your motivation to SD is irrelevant, the reason of SD in that situation is the aggression. You've already been won and just try to minimize your losses.

And the main motivation is not to deny a killmail, but prevent a lossmail.

Tears about being denied something.

(...)
The aggressors always know what happened and why, but the loser gets away with their terribleness without anyone else knowing.

So not having a killmail would still be consistent with current game mechanics.

Apparently, the aggressor wants something (in this case, he wants the victim's loss not going unnoticed) and this 'victim' is denying it the aggressor. Nothing new here, just classic grieving.
The aggressors are now complaining about not getting what they want... it just completes the circle.

I'm picking up the idea that people don't really care about it being an accurate report of what happened. Not really. But that they are more concerned with someone who had a lol fit have this recorded on their losses board. What for? If they only do lol fits they're just gonna die to the next guy anyway, whether or not this was recorded as happening before or not.

I even get the feeling you're main concern is disparaging other people. I don't see how anything more than the fight and their choice to blow up requires any kind of record. We all know CCP actively encourages faggotry in this game. But that's in game, by all means send tornados at mackinaws, but why do you need to record any of this whatsoever? Hey look at my ***** flapping around. It's not as big as it could be though waaaaaaaaahhh.

I'm picking up the idea that people don't really care about it being an accurate report of what happened. Not really. But that they are more concerned with someone who had a lol fit have this recorded on their losses board. What for? If they only do lol fits they're just gonna die to the next guy anyway, whether or not this was recorded as happening before or not.

I even get the feeling you're main concern is disparaging other people. I don't see how anything more than the fight and their choice to blow up requires any kind of record. We all know CCP actively encourages faggotry in this game. But that's in game, by all means send tornados at mackinaws, but why do you need to record any of this whatsoever? Hey look at my ***** flapping around. It's not as big as it could be though waaaaaaaaahhh.

You still don't seem to fully get it- we'd like the real ship losses to be recorded to show the actual events like they happened on Tranquility. Killboards are used to assess a corps performance, and right now these records are not accurate.

I want someone getting roflstomped being visible to others. Current SD mechanics allow considerable losses to be hidden, I don't like that.

And oh, killboards are a inaccurate anyhow (or at least, a selective truth), but I guess we don't have to discuss the obvious.

Some earn their ISK because of those inaccuracies, battles are won and lost on misjudging the opponent. Both Missing- and inaccurate information can be powerful tools.

Good intelligence information should require effort to collect, instead of it being presented to you on a silver platter.

What? You still on about KMs from SD'ing caps? Jeez, is it really a problem?

Generally killmails are accurate enough - would be nice to see the inclusion of logistics in some capacity without them having to use agressive modules .

I'm picking up the idea that people don't really care about it being an accurate report of what happened.

This is exactly what I want.

What is a killmail?

It is "A record of who was shooting at something when it exploded."

And if a killmail was generated from an SDing ship whilst it was being shot at it would be...

A record of who was shooting at something when it exploded.

When you have lots of fights, it is nice to be able to record what happened automatically, this is where the killmail system comes in.

Also don't compare docking with being in a POS, they're not the same.
Wormholes do not equal Null-sec, the mechanics are quite different.

Why should I lose out on having record of what happened just because you lost your ship a little quicker than if I had blown it up? Your ship is gone either way, why are we pretending like it didn't happen?

When you have lots of fights, it is nice to be able to record what happened automatically, this is where the killmail system comes in.

This is exactly what I want.

What is a killmail?

It is "A record of who was shooting at something when it exploded."

Yes, but its not only that. That's the problem.

Apparently, the aggressor wants something (in this case, he wants the victim's loss not going unnoticed) and this 'victim' is denying it the aggressor. Nothing new here, just classic grieving.
The aggressors are now complaining about not getting what they want... it just completes the circle.

I self-destructed a battlecruiser once because two frigates couldn't kill me fast enough.

Sometimes I just don't like waiting. If you can't kill me in 2 minutes, either let me go or deal with it.

I self-destructed a battlecruiser once because two frigates couldn't kill me fast enough.

Sometimes I just don't like waiting. If you can't kill me in 2 minutes, either let me go or deal with it.

"If you build a fortress in there it is impossible to invade". The mechanics of infiltrating
capital ships into wormholes was discussed, as well as the "chain-collapsing" mechanic. CCP expressed some concern that as long as you were with a group of people, wormhole space is too safe. CCP was worried that the introduction of some sort of wormhole stabilizer would remove some of the everyday safety that people have grown to expect.GÇ¥

If CCP does this sh*t then W space will become Null. We don`t like null.

This is what I absolutely hate about the current form of SD most of the time its people getting themselves into a situation and then not being held properly to account for it

They lose the ship and contents, so.


If you don't like someone SD'ing on you; kill faster.



I see some mention of wh nerf... i've been waiting on the announcement that we can build stations and titans.

I don't even care if the SD mail shows a fit or value. Some people do sure, but you can't sit there and say that having an accurate battle report is a bad thing. And like what someone else said, sometimes the killboard is extra important for people. Mercs get hired a lot based soley on their killboard. Just because you don't seem to agree with that part of game doesn't make it any less important.

And oh, killboards are a inaccurate anyhow (or at least, a selective truth), but I guess we don't have to discuss the obvious.

THIS. I love my Guardian so show it some damn love on killmails!

Why should I lose out on having record of what happened just because you lost your ship a little quicker than if I had blown it up? Your ship is gone either way, why are we pretending like it didn't happen?

I self-destructed a battlecruiser once because two frigates couldn't kill me fast enough.

Sometimes I just don't like waiting. If you can't kill me in 2 minutes, either let me go or deal with it.

Maybe fit your ship better so it can deal with frigs next time (Warrior IIs?)... or have a friend/alt come by with anti-tackle setup.

And as interesting the question is about why in all thats holy SD do not show up on KMs, the real mystery is why the information about a kill only goes to one pilot, and why that pilot should be the one with the final blow? What's so magical about that? Why not top dmg? Or first blow?

from csm min
.........
ale attacks.

Bane, this and WH stabilizers = Null, not empty, goons and all them are going to come to "play" with us....

Also, OP, Post with your main...its all the rage, I hear everybody's doing it.

No, the majority of corps that like WSpace because its WSpace would probably leave, we chose not to live in null for a reason.

Also, OP, Post with your main...its all the rage, I hear everybody's doing it.

This is no more an alt than my "Main(s)." Besides attacking me in game would just make me self destruct leaving you no killmail to show for it; therefore no point attacking me right? And finally, are you having trouble with a discussion? Would you rather just come shoot me? Unlucky, use your words little timmy.

I don't believe WH systems are possible to fortress up to the point they can't be taken... people just don't want to put that level of effort in... if someone put in even half the effort AHARM have put into building up Nova, etc. they'd have a good chance of having a crack at it... problem is people just want to drop in huge numbers, job done, move on. I don't see why a system should be conquerable without some kinda parity in the effort taken to build it up/tear it down.

Any change to WH mechanics towards that end will be a disaster for the game - pretty much all the middle sized corps will dissapear overnight along with much of the PVP, the large corps after fighting some entrenched action would evac, all that would be left would be day trippers and transient small corps and probably around 10K accounts would go inactive (I find the rest of the game way too boring to continue subscribing).

If CCP does this sh*t then W space will become Null. We don`t like null.

What Hatrul says sounds much like a Win Win while inside poses. But what I see that is said for the most part of the posters is that perhaps we need a new tool to let you "record" (not the fraps way) when you enter in battle with anyone, other than just the kill report.

for christs sake why is that awful "stabiliser" idea still around?

The session change is important, as it is already a mechanic that deals with this. For example, I engage someone on a gate. They almost kill me but I jump through the gate. On the other side someone else finishes me off. In this instance the first person does not get on the killmail because of the session change.

Maybe like a special pos bashing module and subsystem for t3?

Something like this would spice up low class wormholes nicely as well. Especially c4's that are far enough from k-space to discourage invaders from ferrying large BC/BS fleets in but also immune to capital ships, so in c4's horribly fluffy carebears can keep their failfit poses up infinitely, since no one ever bothers to attack them there. In c5's we have cleaning crews removing failbears with dreadnoughts and c1-c3 have k-space logistics for invading smaller ships.

The idea has some merit. Let us investigate it further.

They took the risk/reward gamble of WH space and they lost it, and now they have the option to take the wimp's way out when the aggressing pilots have usually taken lost of time to set up the appropriate fleet and laid in wait for the appropriate time. They take the cowards way out, and now there will be no record of them ever being in that ship during said fight and only the pod will be proof.

Yes they did, and they lost an expensive piece of hardware in the process.
Please keep crying over killmails you don't deserve, your tears are delicious [read: pathetic]

What function does this post serve?

You's Trollin' [read: pathetic]

Fight fire with fire.

Yes they did, and they lost an expensive piece of hardware in the process.
Please keep crying over killmails you don't deserve, your tears are delicious [read: pathetic]

I still don't get why you are opposed to something reflecting accurately on a battle report. But if you really only want half the story to be shown, just say so.

popping wormhole PoSes is too easy, they don't have the coordination or the ability to bring in reinforcements like null does. In null you can fall back to another system, in wormholes your just ******

if popping poses in wormholes was profitable in any way other then "i want this system"

then too many people would just run around ganking wormholes and then wormhole content would die

cry moar bitches but CCP wants people to have fun

(...) just passive-aggressive deny the killers their trophy' that don't want.

popping wormhole PoSes is too easy, they don't have the coordination or the ability to bring in reinforcements like null does. In null you can fall back to another system, in wormholes your just ******

if popping poses in wormholes was profitable in any way other then "i want this system"

then too many people would just run around ganking wormholes and then wormhole content would die

cry moar bitches but CCP wants people to have fun

Nut up or shut up.
People who SD in combat are the lowest form of coward in EVE.

Because you did NOT kill it, it exploded at the expressed and delayed decision of the pilot.

I can't think of how to write this out any easier for you... erm.

Your ship blew up because I shot at it, a battle happened, you lost.
Regardless of what made your ship explode, it still exploded because I agressed it.

I am yet to hear a good reason there should be no record of this...

"You did not kill it" is not a good reason because it is wrong. I killed it, it is dead because of me, who cares if you got the final blow.

Rather than justify why I should have a killmail, I think it'd be better to hear the reasons you should be able to deny someone one, or why you would want to?

I'm betting almost everyone who thinks they deserve to deny a killmail does so out of 1 of 2 reasons (neither are valid)

1: Spite - your spite is not a valid game mechanic, you are the type of person that turns off a multiplayer right before the results and act like noone won because you turned it off...

2: Killboard - you don't want the loss, and wish to pretend like it didn't happen (even though it did)

That about right?

Killing (& baking stuff) is what this game is all about, self destruction is for cowards IMO, If they failed to protect their vessels they deserve to die.

But you didn't kill it, and back to the causation argument, you argue that it exploded because you aggressed it. So what? lets just suggest you're not coming close to breaking the tank, did you REALLY kill it? REALLY? You argue that because you fired upon it, maybe only the once, you are entitled to be considered a contribuatory factor in killing it. Should the person I buy the ship from be considered culpable, remember, I wouldn't have SD the ship if I hadn't bought it would I? Should squad leader be culpable for warping squad?

Simply this: If you're not the immediate factor in a ships popping you didn't kill it.

Simply this: If you're not the immediate factor in a ships popping you didn't kill it.

I self destruct cause I can. I self destructed a bellicose and logged off when we got invaded by 200 russians faggots in tengus.

Come at me haters.

But you didn't kill it, and back to the causation argument, you argue that it exploded because you aggressed it. So what? lets just suggest you're not coming close to breaking the tank, did you REALLY kill it? REALLY? You argue that because you fired upon it, maybe only the once, you are entitled to be considered a contribuatory factor in killing it. Should the person I buy the ship from be considered culpable, remember, I wouldn't have SD the ship if I hadn't bought it would I? Should squad leader be culpable for warping squad?

If you're not the immediate factor in a ships popping you didn't kill it.

3. You didn't apply enough damage to kill it.

4. You were not the immediate factor in it's destruction

5. The pilot had the option to deny the ship and equipment, you were unable to prevent him from doing what he wanted to do, therefore you failed at YOUR end.

Out of interest what are peoples thoughts about people self-destructing when they technically didn't make any kind of mistake at all?

If you aren't watching signatures or have already collapsed known wormholes - then it could be argued you have not done reasonable diligence and that you deserve to lose whatever you're flying.

BUT, what about if you're doing all of these things - you hit Siege/Triage in a site - and a new incoming wormhole spawns as you do so? You can't escape, you can't reship, in that situation unless you have support you're probably screwed (certainly in any lone capital). Appreciate the logical counter-argument is "always fly with support" but I'd challenge anyone to say that they haven't farmed their own C5-C6 sites in fewer numbers than would be considered prudent in a fleet fight.

Personally speaking, and unlike my corp mate, if I was in a fight from the outset I had no hope of winning and I believed I had done everything in advance I could reasonably have done - I'd consider SD. Especially if unnecessarily over-blobbed. If I'd committed to a fight and things went south midway through however, that's a different kettle of fish entirely.

Out of interest what are peoples thoughts about people self-destructing when they technically didn't make any kind of mistake at all?

If you aren't watching signatures or have already collapsed known wormholes - then it could be argued you have not done reasonable diligence and that you deserve to lose whatever you're flying.

BUT, what about if you're doing all of these things - you hit Siege/Triage in a site - and a new incoming wormhole spawns as you do so? You can't escape, you can't reship, in that situation unless you have support you're probably screwed (certainly in any lone capital). Appreciate the logical counter-argument is "always fly with support" but I'd challenge anyone to say that they haven't farmed their own C5-C6 sites in fewer numbers than would be considered prudent in a fleet fight.

Personally speaking, and unlike my corp mate, if I was in a fight from the outset I had no hope of winning and I believed I had done everything in advance I could reasonably have done - I'd consider SD. Especially if unnecessarily over-blobbed. If I'd committed to a fight and things went south midway through however, that's a different kettle of fish entirely.

But you didn't kill it, and back to the causation argument, you argue that it exploded because you aggressed it. So what? lets just suggest you're not coming close to breaking the tank, did you REALLY kill it? REALLY? You argue that because you fired upon it, maybe only the once, you are entitled to be considered a contribuatory factor in killing it. Should the person I buy the ship from be considered culpable, remember, I wouldn't have SD the ship if I hadn't bought it would I? Should squad leader be culpable for warping squad?
Simply this: If you're not the immediate factor in a ships popping you didn't kill it.


3. You didn't apply enough damage to kill it.
4. You were not the immediate factor in it's destruction
5. The pilot had the option to deny the ship and equipment, you were unable to prevent him from doing what he wanted to do, therefore you failed at YOUR end.

Is cowardice in a game even possible? The repercussion are zero in any and all situations.

Stop crying, my (big) belly hurts.

I don't think he can help it. If it works why bother fixing it? I don't know why people are so emotional about changing this.

I MEANT YOU!

I MEANT YOU!

I don't understand.

I don't understand.

This game is not all about combat and the actions of a target are not all about the aggressor.

The common misconception is that the reason for the target to self-destruct is to deny the aggressor a killmail. However, when I self-destruct a Strategic Cruiser, I'm self-destructing to protect my skill points and not give away a perfectly repairable ship.
The aggressors and his precious killmail are irrelevant to me

IF someone does indeed self-destructing only to deny the aggressor a killmail, it is just another form of grieving. There are many forms of grieving in EVE, it is just that usually the aggressor is on the delivering, instead of on the receiving side.

So, the tears about not receiving a killmail are no different from the tears from suicide ganked miners. Not getting what you want, or losing what you have, is part of EVE. It is what sets this game apart from your average cuddly MMO.

There were two points that were made during the course of this thread.

1-. The SD that matter were of capital and pos mods/poses.
2-. Also as important as above was the fact that a more advanced tool than the kill mail was requiered to better undestand how a battle develops, other than fraps.

That being said I do not understand the quote above except for tve tengu thing that is pretty obvious. But i tell you this. Eject worksfaster and better than SD.

There were two points that were made during the course of this thread.

1-. The SD that matter were of capital and pos mods/poses.
2-. Also as important as above was the fact that a more advanced tool than the kill mail was requiered to better undestand how a battle develops, other than fraps.

That being said I do not understand the quote above except for tve tengu thing that is pretty obvious. But i tell you this. Eject worksfaster and better than SD.

You're right, I don't understand the quote above. lrn2 english.

Also, since when can you self destruct POS's and POS mods? (Spoiler: You can't)

I meant the ships inside, I messed up. Can't work and try to answer a post at the same time.

PS: engrish second languagege, my mess some up thing s in times from times

Seems CCP woke up and released KM for SDing, atleast that what people claim since today on 2 Supers that SDed and issued a KM anyway.

If so, huge thanks to CCP

words spreading out, just need more confirmation.

anyway OP can suck it

words spreading out, just need more confirmation.

anyway OP can suck it

The SD mails are bugs, they happened a few months back as well randomly until CCP fixed it again. You can tell its a bug because the mails are malformed.

Holding down a solo capital is way to easy. If your not bringing enough guns to kill it fast, then its well within the capital ship pilots right to self-destruct. He's still losing a massive wad of isk, just with the added satisfaction of denying you of you precious killmail. Should have brought more guns!

Obviously you'd need WAAAAAY more firepower. Then your issue wouldn't apply.

Holding down a solo capital is way to easy. If your not bringing enough guns to kill it fast, then its well within the capital ship pilots right to self-destruct. He's still losing a massive wad of isk, just with the added satisfaction of denying you of you precious killmail. Should have brought more guns!

This is assuming they haven't changed it. Sure seems like a easy way to get the killmail if they have, assuming you can afford to self-destruct one just for that.

I hear self-destructing ships now yield killmails.

Shown in this nyx kill: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13995922

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPu5wUugyvc&feature=youtu.be


And this Aeon kill: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13985906

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOAFsgwClog&feature=player_embedded

I hear self-destructing ships now yield killmails.

Shown in this nyx kill: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13995922

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPu5wUugyvc&feature=youtu.be

Wait a minute. A guy named suicide r us blew himself up? And you STILL consider this a kill?

Dear god I hope you don't breed.

You can't even distinguish a name from a corporation, his name doesn't even contain "Self" or "destruct"

Bit personal for a discussion about a game don't you think? You don't even know me, I could be a molecular biologist on the verge of curing cancer for all you know.

He has associated himself with a name in-game of an entity he chose to join, that particular entity is called "Suicides-R-Us." Similarly a part representing the whole, you as a player will likely often be referred to as part of Transmission lost.

Capital SD should destroy pods.

Why?

A problem is the number of farmers around driving down the prices. Russian farming groups are a stain upon eve.

We must control the supply and force the smaller groups to comply to our demands.

The best way is to plant some spies in these corps and once the time is right, you stab them into the back and shove them out of the forcefields where they will meet their glorious death.

Self-destruction should negate insurance.

I should not receive money if I intentionally blew up my vehicle on purpose.

And self destruct timer should be relevant to ship class.

Its ******** how a Supercapital with 40+ million ehp can self destruct in the same time a puny >1000ehp shuttle.

Capitals should take 15 minutes to self destruct for starters.


Supercapitals should take 45 minutes to self destruct.


Self-destruction under aggression should give you a killmail of the ship. Loot will be destroyed, but a record should still remain.

Why not, if you crash your own car you get a payout don't you?

Not if you did it on purpose

Sure they do, it's the petition system. An equally timely and fun process.

I'm posting about suicide not being recorded as a kill. (I suppose technically it is but I for one would endeavour to create the games longest list of API verified suicides). This is a game about homicide not suicide, why record suicides (I can only imagine PvPers would agree with me on this, being PvPers, not Pers). That other thread read like a bunch of whines about people wanting non-kill related information recorded in killmails and a feature addition/change suggestion. So You could even argue it's in the wrong section.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=137718&find=unread

Might want to take a peek at this thread...

That thread brought a tear to my eye.

Suck it moonlit.

I'll get over it.

I sense great butthurt and tears coming from this NPC alt.

I want you to imagine for a moment, you are shooting a Drednought in your battle badger. He has no modules fitted and you have enough ammo to keep going til he dies. Suddenly the ship explodes in front of you. You check your combat log but nothing appears. There is no record of you catching this guy with his pants down, utterly embarrased him and would have dealt over a million dmg using just a badger.