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Don't nerf the dramiel; boost interceptors

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Amarr Supremacist	Posted - 2010.04.10 08:22:00 - [61] Edited by: Amarr Supremacist on 10/04/2010 08:24:55 Originally by: Darthewok Edited by: Darthewok on 10/04/2010 08:18:09 excellent. mission accomplished. you have committed to see the killboard adjustment through, which was my objective. your pride makes you so very easy to mess with, Intigo. lol. Mess with? You're doing no messing, you're just an incompetent tool who is terrible at PvP. And posting. And anything else EVE-related. Also, you had absolutely zero influence in getting this changed. Don't kid yourself. ____________ Intigo - go visit www.eve-arena.com for the best Battleclinic killboard replacement yet!
Raimo Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.04.10 08:24:00 - [62] Edited by: Raimo on 10/04/2010 08:25:14 Originally by: Inch Allah Originally by: Raimo Are you sure? Let's look at the last 6 months... http://www.eve-arena.com/pilots/Raimo http://www.eve-arena.com/pilots/faffywaffy Thanks for playing, try again! ;) Sorry Raimo, Faffy's KB stats are better than yours by a wide margin. If you don't like Battleclinic, use your own alliance killboards: http://www.gentlemen-in-space.com/killboard/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=39105 http://genos.eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=155807 Pulling some weird killboard out of your arse that it seems even Liang(!) didn't know had existed up until now proves nothing. ... Btw, why "the last 6 months?" Why not the last six years or the last six minutes? (N1 Faffy fan club/alt army!) I didn't say I would be better than Faffy, I just at "one of the best Interceptor pilots in EVE"... The E-Bushido and killboard linking came after that and not initiated by me. Also, thanks for proving to us that Faffy flies a lot with his blobby alliance, such epic stats Oh 6 months because EVE-Arena rank is currently calculated from the last 6 months which I find really nice to show current "relevance"... Also the points system is better than BC IMHO. (Though the Dram/ faction issue exists currently there as well but will be fixed soon I hear) Too bad you had not heard about it before, it has seemed to me that most of the PVP community are aware of it and very excited about it's future developments, I know I am. FYL BTW Ed: Saw the posts above, everyone knows Caelum actually created EVE-Arena to see which corp he should join! -----------------------------------------------
Number 17 Caldari COLD-Wing	Posted - 2010.04.10 08:24:00 - [63] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Number 17 Don't have any ideas on how to balance this, but i think something to do with ship role bonuses would do. Balance what exactly? That the Dramiel is awesome? What does have got to do with interceptor bonuses? I fly frigates a lot, and used to fly ceptors scout, tackle, dogfight (aka excel online). Now I don't see any more ceptors in space. ppl rather go out in a rifter, why spend 10 times more in a t2 frig? The role of the interceptor is to tackle and survive, to tackle another ship. If it doesn't survive it has no role. There used to be a time when in an engagement you saw a rapier uncloak, a curse land in, vaga incoming, and you spammed warp. Now it only takes a dramiel to cause same effect. And im not saying dramiel is op, they die to t1 cruisers just like any frig. As Faffy states there is something wrong with interceptors, and there is a reason why nobody flies them any more. I for one would love to have both points in one module, disuptor at <24km, and disable mwd + 2 pt under 9km. It would make dual prop fittings viable for both kind of tackle.
Darthewok State Protectorate	Posted - 2010.04.10 08:25:00 - [64] Edited by: Darthewok on 10/04/2010 08:35:49 Originally by: Amarr Supremacist Also, you had absolutely zero influence in getting this changed. Don't kid yourself. LOL besides, i am also posting so BC and EVE Kills may notice and change it, not just EVE Arena. also, someone who obviously is not posting with main anymore and regularly gets censored on threads tells me i am bad at posting. LOL by the way, EVE Arena after is improved should be one of the coolest new Killboards in EVE. so everyone check it out.
Chris Hansenn	Posted - 2010.04.10 09:02:00 - [65] Gentlemen's Club damn well are going to post on alts to support one of their very few competent PvPers.
Darthewok State Protectorate	Posted - 2010.04.10 09:16:00 - [66] Edited by: Darthewok on 10/04/2010 09:23:58 Originally by: Amarr Supremacist you're just an incompetent tool who is terrible at PvP. oh yes, you keep repeatedly telling people i am incompetent and terrible at PVP. this is certainly true. i am really really really bad. so everyone if you see me in local, come get me as i am an easy kill. free buffet for you! cheers!
Kimura Masahiko Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.04.10 10:08:00 - [67] Originally by: Lallaallaa Why don't you fly some more scram Cynabals about it? Check out my sig its pretty cool
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.04.10 10:34:00 - [68] Originally by: Omara Otawan Just goes to show how hilariously easy it is to farm battleclinic rank by ganking lollerfit BCs and BSs in frig/cruiser size ships. Yeah... the BC ranking system is nice, strongly favouring solo and small-gang, but it kinda breaks when you realise that you get the same number of points when you gank some noob in a mining Dominix as you do when you kill another an experienced guy in a neuting, full-tackle fit.
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2010.04.10 10:37:00 - [69] Edited by: Faffywaffy on 10/04/2010 10:40:53 I think we've veered pretty far away from the topic, so let me try and close this branch of discussion. I never said I was the best pilot. I don't know Raimo, and he may very well be a better pilot than me. Comparing Battleclinic rankings that are this close doesn't prove who is better (in fact, Mukk is ranked well below me, but is definitely better than me). What it does prove, and this is the only point I was trying to make, is that I'm not a random moron on the forums and that you may want to at least consider listening to what I have to say. Now, please return to the topic at hand, which is, to remind everyone, "Is there a way to boost interceptors to make them useful in their intended role(s)?".
Raimo Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.04.10 10:51:00 - [70] Originally by: Faffywaffy Now, please return to the topic at hand, which is, to remind everyone, "Is there a way to boost interceptors to make them useful in their intended role(s)?". Slight dram nerf, focusing on the LR tackle fits would help some. Maybe a very slight speed nerf and a large-ish cap nerf would be a decent start IMHO but for the love of god, SLIGHT, let's not nuke it like normally happens! After that, I'm not sure. If T3 frigs are coming soon frigate balance will again have new issues but atm it does look like some ceptors and most AFs are in need of some love. Maybe EVE would be a more interesting place again if all ceptors got a slight overall speed boost? AFs would need something else to separate them and make them useful. (I might very well be talking out of my ass here btw) Also, we have to keep in mind that this is exactly how CCP wants to run their game. They don't want complete "balance" between races or ship classes, they want a changing cycle of "OP" and "Subpar" ships/races/classes where all players end up wanting to train for everything, also I'm sure all the threadnaughts on dramiel/falcon/nano/nos/whatever are very amusing at the office :D -----------------------------------------------
Cpt Branko Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2010.04.10 10:57:00 - [71] Originally by: Faffywaffy Now, please return to the topic at hand, which is, to remind everyone, "Is there a way to boost interceptors to make them useful in their intended role(s)?". What are these intended roles and how do we prevent boosting interceptors to fullfill them essentially breaking interceptors or anti-frig ships? (Oh, and by the way, we can't really rebalance stuff based on the Dramiel. It'd require a rebalance of everything frig sized, including other pirate frigates bar maybe Daredevil just because of one ship.) Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Kimura Masahiko Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.04.10 10:58:00 - [72] Originally by: Faffywaffy I don't know Raimo, and he may very well be a better pilot than me. He is. Nothing to brag about though, anyone who has a basic understanding of how to fit ships also falls into this category. Check out my sig its pretty cool
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2010.04.10 11:05:00 - [73] Originally by: Raimo Originally by: Faffywaffy Well it would need some serious thinking through to make it work(an understatement), how would you go about solving the Ceptors vs AF/EAF/Faction/T1 frigate tackling issue you would create out of thin air? A well-fit ceptor rarely goes above 5k/s (significantly less when orbiting). A webbed ceptor would therefore go less than 2k/s, which is about what dramiels go on AB. Not to say necessarily that this isn't a problem, but making them immune to scramblers does boost interceptors to be closer to the dramiel (it will still have more tank with very competitive dps and smaller sigradius on AB).
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2010.04.10 11:10:00 - [74] Originally by: Raimo Slight dram nerf, focusing on the LR tackle fits would help some. How is nerfing the dramiel going to fix interceptors? My point was that interceptors are currently inadequate at their primary intended role (tackling) and they should be boosted to make them better at it. If that happens, a dramiel nerf may not be necessary at all because it will no longer outclass interceptors in their intended role. Aka killing two birds with one stone. Only nerfing the dramiel will still leave ceptors broken.
Cpt Branko Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2010.04.10 11:18:00 - [75] Originally by: Faffywaffy Originally by: Raimo Slight dram nerf, focusing on the LR tackle fits would help some. How is nerfing the dramiel going to fix interceptors? My point was that interceptors are currently inadequate at their primary intended role (tackling) and they should be boosted to make them better at it. If that happens, a dramiel nerf may not be necessary at all because it will no longer outclass interceptors in their intended role. Aka killing two birds with one stone. Only nerfing the dramiel will still leave ceptors broken. But interceptors tackle and stuff. They're vulnerable to anti-frig ships, though, BUT, this is actually working as intended. CCP plan is to make them cheaper still by insurance changes (they more or less said that stuff which has good odds of dying will get a very high insurance payout compared to production cost while recons and stuff which should not die will more or less be as they are now), which turns them into a kind of T2 begginer ship ;P Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2010.04.10 11:26:00 - [76] Edited by: Faffywaffy on 10/04/2010 11:28:35 Originally by: Cpt Branko But interceptors tackle and stuff. They're vulnerable to anti-frig ships, though, BUT, this is actually working as intended. CCP plan is to make them cheaper still by insurance changes (they more or less said that stuff which has good odds of dying will get a very high insurance payout compared to production cost while recons and stuff which should not die will more or less be as they are now), which turns them into a kind of T2 begginer ship ;P Dramiels tackle and stuff. Better than interceptors. Interceptors, however, don't do it very well. It's not about anti-frig ships, it's about being unable to tackle in the presence of almost any two or more ships. You are right. Increasing insurance payout on ceptors is going to result in more incompetent pilots flying them. I disagree that making something cheaper is a way to fix it. They will still not be able to perform their role properly, and with more newbs flying them will become an even less respected class of ships. They'll merely be a stepping stone to the dramiel (even more so than now).
Desudes	Posted - 2010.04.10 12:13:00 - [77] Edited by: Desudes on 10/04/2010 12:15:42 Let tackler inties(Ares for example) web as far as they can point, otherwise you're looking at providing neut/web immunity in order to give them a way to outperform t1 frigs in a meaningful way. Wouldn't mind both, actually. Just the two cents of someone who is tired of people burning back to gates because web range is suicide. Oh, remove the dmg bonuses for something useful(like web range) please.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.04.10 12:37:00 - [78] Edited by: Furb Killer on 10/04/2010 12:36:53 Equal web and disruptor range and neut immunity? Those have to be one of worst ideas ever.
Suitonia Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.04.10 12:47:00 - [79] Lol scram or web immunity would be abused so much, its such an op ability and if such a thing ever went through I would have a field day. The Dramiel is the problem, it's the fastest, most agile ship in the game, it has 4 mids so it can fit MSE, dual prop and scram. While having almost the same dps of a Blaster Taranis. It needs to be adjusted slightly. Otherwise, Interceptors are basically fine except for some. Raptor could use some speed, Crow/Malediction need rockets to not be ****. ---
Cpt Branko Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2010.04.10 14:44:00 - [80] Originally by: Suitonia Lol scram or web immunity would be abused so much, its such an op ability and if such a thing ever went through I would have a field day. The Dramiel is the problem, it's the fastest, most agile ship in the game, it has 4 mids so it can fit MSE, dual prop and scram. While having almost the same dps of a Blaster Taranis. It needs to be adjusted slightly. Otherwise, Interceptors are basically fine except for some. Raptor could use some speed, Crow/Malediction need rockets to not be ****. This. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Hussain Gallente Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2010.04.10 14:56:00 - [81] Honestly I think you all have it wrong. The question should not be as to nerf/boost small fast ships but to know what can the non-small fast ships can do to counter them. And I am talking in general terms not specific fittings and not specific ships, also I am not talking in ways to get away from them , but how to hurt them. When we get that right small fast ships will be again tacklers that are NOT invulnerable to large ships and the game would benefit a lot from it. As I think it was the original dev intent. But you know the saying about intents and hell...
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2010.04.10 15:14:00 - [82] Originally by: Suitonia The Dramiel is the problem... You're missing my point too. The dramiel is only overpowered because ceptors are underpowered, and you can't fix that by nerfing the dram.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.04.10 15:31:00 - [83] Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 10/04/2010 15:31:59 Originally by: Faffywaffy Originally by: Suitonia The Dramiel is the problem... You're missing my point too. The dramiel is only overpowered because ceptors are underpowered, and you can't fix that by nerfing the dram. No, it's overpowered because it does everything too well. Buff inties all you want, frigates will still be divided into "Dramiels" and "that stuff you fly if you're not skilled/funded for a Dramiel" God help us if that warp stab fit I've seen cropping up actually turns out to be viable enough that it becomes widespread. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.04.10 15:33:00 - [84] The dramiel outclasses ceptors, assault frigs and other faction frigs easily. ADDED to that is the ability to fit dual prop so it can pretty much always gtfo if needed. The problem isnt with ceptors.
Raimo Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.04.10 16:15:00 - [85] Edited by: Raimo on 10/04/2010 16:15:36 Originally by: Furb Killer The dramiel outclasses ceptors, assault frigs and other faction frigs easily. ADDED to that is the ability to fit dual prop so it can pretty much always gtfo if needed. The problem isnt with ceptors. You're exagerrating a tad though bro. Dual prop, superior speed, near AF MSE tank and 200+ DPS aside, it still goes squish when a decent gang baits it properly or somebody has a decent anti-dram fit or w/e. Even (very) lucky artillery can do it... Believe me, I know. :P But I do agree that a slight dram nerf is needed. ----------------------------------------------- www.eve-arena.com
Kimura Masahiko Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.04.10 16:31:00 - [86] Ok for small gang pvp the dramiel is the do it all ship but if you would fly one over a stiletto in a proper battel then you are pretty ******ed. Check out my sig its pretty cool
Suitonia Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.04.10 16:42:00 - [87] Originally by: Faffywaffy Originally by: Suitonia The Dramiel is the problem... You're missing my point too. The dramiel is only overpowered because ceptors are underpowered, and you can't fix that by nerfing the dram. I completely disagree. I think interceptors are well balanced and fine. The Dramiel is overpowered because it has Assault frig dps, near assault frig EHP, while going 6km/s with a mwd, 2km/s with an AB (thats with t2, and a single cheap speed implant). The Taranis for example, does about 30-40 more dps than a Dramiel, but is almost twice as slow, has 3x less it's effective range, and half the effective hitpoints. It's not because the Taranis is underpowered, it is fine and was flown plenty before Dominion, I think it ranked 6 on the eve-kill.net FoTM list. I don't want to brag or anything, just putting it out there that I know from experience what I am talking about. I am one of the best blaster Taranis pilots in the game, and have almost 1,700 kills with one. as much as I would really love to see it get a buff, it is in no-way deserving of one. I flew the Taranis alot Pre QR, and after, and I have also flown many other interceptors on alts, I think they are all balanced and fine (the turret ones). The only interceptor that needs a buff is the Raptor. everything else is fine. (Crow/Malediction is more a problem of lol frigate missile weapons) ---
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.04.10 17:36:00 - [88] Originally by: Suitonia The Taranis for example, does about 30-40 more dps than a Dramiel, but is almost twice as slow, has 3x less it's effective range, and half the effective hitpoints. It's not because the Taranis is underpowered, it is fine and was flown plenty before Dominion, I think it ranked 6 on the eve-kill.net FoTM list. You see, the problem with your argument is you are comparing a combat interceptor with a pirate faction frigate. And you are overexaggerating quite a bit, but you know that I guess. Compare it to other combat interceptors, compare Dramiel to Daredevil (which outclasses the taranis in every way by a huge margin as well) and try again. Oh, and the taranis never ranked 6 on the eve-kill FoTM list, not even close
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2010.04.10 18:20:00 - [89] Originally by: Suitonia Originally by: Faffywaffy Originally by: Suitonia The Dramiel is the problem... You're missing my point too. The dramiel is only overpowered because ceptors are underpowered, and you can't fix that by nerfing the dram. I completely disagree. I think interceptors are well balanced and fine. The Dramiel is overpowered because it has Assault frig dps, near assault frig EHP, while going 6km/s with a mwd, 2km/s with an AB (thats with t2, and a single cheap speed implant). The Taranis for example, does about 30-40 more dps than a Dramiel, but is almost twice as slow, has 3x less it's effective range, and half the effective hitpoints. It's not because the Taranis is underpowered, it is fine and was flown plenty before Dominion, I think it ranked 6 on the eve-kill.net FoTM list. I don't want to brag or anything, just putting it out there that I know from experience what I am talking about. I am one of the best blaster Taranis pilots in the game, and have almost 1,700 kills with one. as much as I would really love to see it get a buff, it is in no-way deserving of one. I flew the Taranis alot Pre QR, and after, and I have also flown many other interceptors on alts, I think they are all balanced and fine (the turret ones). The only interceptor that needs a buff is the Raptor. everything else is fine. (Crow/Malediction is more a problem of lol frigate missile weapons) Interceptors are reasonably balanced (with the few exceptions you mention) amongst themselves - I agree with that. Your extensive experience with them is almost entirely in a 1v1 setting. That is not what I'm talking about. The problem I'm talking about is in the setting of a mid-sized fleet fight, where they are nearly useless.
Desudes	Posted - 2010.04.10 19:10:00 - [90] Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 10/04/2010 12:36:53 Equal web and disruptor range and neut immunity? Those have to be one of worst ideas ever. what else will benefit the tackler? You can already orbit safely with a point. Next logical step is to web, amything else is something besides tackling.

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