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Don't nerf the dramiel; boost interceptors

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Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.04.10 19:37:00 - [91] Originally by: Faffywaffy The problem I'm talking about is in the setting of a mid-sized fleet fight, where they are nearly useless. That applies to almost all sub-cruiser hulls, there are simply too many potential zero transversal one-volleys waiting to happen in a fur-ball. If we actually buffed interceptors just some of the way towards the Dramiel they would be nigh unkillable even in fleets. Their speed is currently balanced in regards to signature, damage, EHP and bonuses .. change either one and the whole damn thing falls apart. Issue with current Dramiel is that it exceeds both interceptor AND AF performance in almost all areas, setting it apart from all other hulls .. even the other pirate hulls (which are actually pretty well balanced). If any change were to be made then it should be the interceptor production cost being cut in half (or more) so that they take on the semi-disposable role they are meant for
Trellish The Perfect Storm Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.04.10 19:38:00 - [92] Originally by: Raimo After that, I'm not sure. If T3 frigs are coming soon frigate balance will again have new issues but atm it does look like many ceptors and most AFs (and some of the new faction frigs) are in need of some love. This is an excellent point... it's hard to talk to much about balance in this area, when we know that a significant unknown variable is going to happen. That said, Faffy, I would prefer a slight nerf to the dram rather than leaving it as is. Interceptors already have lots of good things about them, and something like complete removal of mwd sig blossom would be a significant unbalancing factor in the small gang vs small gang. It would benefit the fleet ceptor, at the cost of small gang pvp.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.04.10 19:46:00 - [93] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida If any change were to be made then it should be the interceptor production cost being cut in half (or more) so that they take on the semi-disposable role they are meant for How dare you, a reasonable comment on my forums?
Rastigan Caldari Ars ex Discordia Here Be Dragons	Posted - 2010.04.10 19:50:00 - [94] Interceptors are fine, they are just T2 Frigates, not super ships. They have an awesome role in small to mid sized gangs. Making a faction frigate be a tank,super speedy,great dps,drone boat,dual prop all in one fit is a little annoying though. Even with all that it would still be ok if it didnt have a mass sooo much lower than any other interceptor.
Goumindong SniggWaffe	Posted - 2010.04.10 20:10:00 - [95] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Suitonia Lol scram or web immunity would be abused so much, its such an op ability and if such a thing ever went through I would have a field day. The Dramiel is the problem, it's the fastest, most agile ship in the game, it has 4 mids so it can fit MSE, dual prop and scram. While having almost the same dps of a Blaster Taranis. It needs to be adjusted slightly. Otherwise, Interceptors are basically fine except for some. Raptor could use some speed, Crow/Malediction need rockets to not be ****. This. Or, to put it maybe more precisely. It's OK for the drammiel to have plenty of damage, tank, cap, and drones. Its not OK to also be 25% faster and 33% more agile than the next closest ship and nearly twice as fast as the rest of the pirate faction frigates
Desudes	Posted - 2010.04.11 00:00:00 - [96] Edited by: Desudes on 11/04/2010 00:01:43 Originally by: Hirana Yoshida If we actually buffed interceptors just some of the way towards the Dramiel they would be nigh unkillable even in fleets. A nigh unkillable floating warp disrupter putting out **all dps would be bad how? Originally by:** Hirana Yoshida If any change were to be made then it should be the interceptor production cost being cut in half (or more) so that they take on the semi-disposable role they are meant for Smile If you want a disposable tackle you can use a rifter. Is surviving engagements and/or being more useful then a t1 variant to much to ask for?
Darthewok State Protectorate	Posted - 2010.04.11 02:07:00 - [97] Edited by: Darthewok on 11/04/2010 02:07:20 Originally by: Hirana Yoshida If any change were to be made then it should be the interceptor production cost being cut in half (or more) so that they take on the semi-disposable role they are meant for Who knows when CCP will get round to addressing the fixed amount of T2 moon goo problem. But if and when they do, and inty, AF and HAC prices fall in line with their performance, i think that should mostly settle the current value-for-money problems these classes are currently facing.
Ghost Nightmare Sons of Damnation MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2010.04.11 02:43:00 - [98] As far as i can tell the level of quality goes 1. T1 2. Faction 3. T2 4. Pirate Pirate ships are SUPPOSED to be better than their t2 counterparts Compare the bhaalgorn, nightmare, vindicator, rattlesnake and Machariel to their t2 counterparts, they are far more powerfull, but come with a far greater price tag. Another Example Cynabal vs Vagabond = Cynabal better Vigilant vs Deimos = Vigilant better A damn dramiel costs FAR more than an interceptor, it should be better... It doesnt need to be nerfed, and interceptors dont need to be buffed, not everyone can afford the dramiels 100mil price tag compared to whatever ceptors are at. Dramiels are powerfull, but a well fitted rupture would kick the **** out of one. So clearly isnt that over-powered.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.04.11 06:11:00 - [99] Originally by: Ghost Nightmare 1. T1 2. Faction 3. T2 4. Pirate Pirate ships are SUPPOSED to be better than their t2 counterparts... The problem with making such a list is that it is unable to actually show the truth. In between all those points you have "equal to or greater" not simply "greater than". If you want to invoke the design decisions may I suggest you reference the actual blog instead of an interpretation? All the other pirate ships live up to the "equal to or greater" paradigm with severe drawbacks and inability able to trump t2 variants in all areas but a few. Dramiel supersedes not just interceptors but AFs in all areas with not a single drawback for an enemy to exploit. - T2 BS are pre-nerfed, old news. They are outperformed by T1 in many cases so no big surprise. - Cynabal > Vagabond? That is news to me. Has a few more drones, slightly better agility but practically everything else is equal to. Cynabals are better in that they are cheaper than Vagabonds with roughly the same capabilities. - Blaster boats are not really used except as back-up damage dealers, I see maybe one or two a week so I cannot verify or deny the Vigilant claim. Better on paper though. And for Goddess sake, enough with the ridiculous ISK balance argument .. it has been debunked ad infinitum already. Guess we all have to fly nothing but Ruptures and Assault Caracals since those are the only ones able to reliably counter Dramiels without resorting to gimmick fits .. will do wonders for variety
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.04.11 06:57:00 - [100] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 11/04/2010 07:03:03 Originally by: Hirana Yoshida - Cynabal > Vagabond? That is news to me. Has a few more drones, slightly better agility but practically everything else is equal to. Cynabals are better in that they are cheaper than Vagabonds with roughly the same capabilities. Uhm, you are completely wrong. It is not just slightly more agile, it is more agile than a standard interceptor fitting, and agility is pretty much the single most important attribute for both Vagabond and Cynabal. It has way better range on turrets (which equals way better real dps output), the extra dronebay allows you to bring ecm drones as additional gtfo button. It has that extra midslot that allows for much more versatile fittings, for example the dual prop, and it has a crapload of pg/cpu to fit all these and more. It is pretty much superior to the Vagabond in every single attribute, and way way superior in those that are important. You are also wrong about them being cheaper, but the price difference is only 10-15%, so why would you ever fly Vagabond when you get the way better ship for just a little more, not even mentioning training for one since the Cynabal requires less training time to max out as well.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.04.11 07:12:00 - [101] Originally by: Omara Otawan Uhm, you are completely wrong. It is not just slightly more agile, it is more agile than a standard interceptor fitting, and agility is pretty much the single most important attribute for both Vagabond and Cynabal. It has way better range on turrets (which equals way better real dps output), the extra dronebay allows you to bring ecm drones as additional gtfo button. It has that extra midslot that allows for much more versatile fittings, for example the dual prop, and it has a crapload of pg/cpu to fit all these and more. It is pretty much superior to the Vagabond in every single attribute, and way way superior in those that are important. - Holy crap. The agility is through the roof, never actually checked the numbers, just basing on experience fighting the things. My mistake - Has the same falloff bonus doesn't it so range is "equal to" unless specifically boosted. - If you actually make use of those midslots for versatility tank drops below that of a Vagabond so again "equal to". - Speed is pretty much the same, perhaps with a slight edge to Cynabal due to lower mass (has lower base spd though) so roughly "equal to". - Didn't know Vagabonds had any fitting issues unless using 425's .. havent heard anything to that effect at any rate. But yea, faction boats are generally swimming in free space compared to vanilla T1. - Five extra lights can be godly, the main reason I prefer Navy Omens over Zealots these days. Haven't seen any Cynabals using lights yet though, they all seem stuck in the drone-bombing mindset and use mediums for more damage. So I beg to differ, it is "equal to" in a lot of areas, but superior where it counts (speed potential and agility).
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.04.11 07:20:00 - [102] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida - Has the same falloff bonus doesn't it so range is "equal to" unless specifically boosted. It can use 425s without any trouble, which gives it a huge range advantage. Vagabonds will struggle with 220s, and typically run 180s or a mix of 220s and 180s. Cynabals can also get away with one more range mod than the Vagabond. Originally by: Hirana Yoshida - If you actually make use of those midslots for versatility tank drops below that of a Vagabond so again "equal to". It doesnt drop below, it drops to about the same, while you got one extra toy like AB, web or whatever. Thats not equal, thats same tank plus an extra useful module. Originally by: Hirana Yoshida - Speed is pretty much the same, perhaps with a slight edge to Cynabal due to lower mass (has lower base spd though) so roughly "equal to". Raw speed is about the same, but keep in mind raw speed is nothing without acceleration. Guess which ship got a huge edge there? Originally by: Hirana Yoshida - Didn't know Vagabonds had any fitting issues unless using 425's .. havent heard anything to that effect at any rate. But yea, faction boats are generally swimming in free space compared to vanilla T1. They do, see above regarding guns.
Ammy Azimuth	Posted - 2010.04.11 08:52:00 - [103] Edited by: Ammy Azimuth on 11/04/2010 08:54:47 Too bad the Cynabal looks like a ****roach. Vagabond looks prettier albeit it isn't the prettiest bird out there. And I'm in favor of the interceptors price getting dropped and insurance ratio going up so they can be the more disposable tackle role. Also dramiel needs a slight nerf, I don't want a big one. I accidentally started the dreadnaught when I didn't mean to. And I exaggerated a little bit on that thread, but I wanted to call out some key points that something was wrong with that ship. Also I think Raimo is a cool guy.
Amarr Supremacist	Posted - 2010.04.11 10:27:00 - [104] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 11/04/2010 07:21:19 Originally by: Omara Otawan Uhm, you are completely wrong. It is not just slightly more agile, it is more agile than a standard interceptor fitting, and agility is pretty much the single most important attribute for both Vagabond and Cynabal. It has way better range on turrets (which equals way better real dps output), the extra dronebay allows you to bring ecm drones as additional gtfo button. It has that extra midslot that allows for much more versatile fittings, for example the dual prop, and it has a crapload of pg/cpu to fit all these and more. It is pretty much superior to the Vagabond in every single attribute, and way way superior in those that are important. - Holy crap. The agility is through the roof, never actually checked the numbers, just basing on experience fighting the things. My mistake - Has the same falloff bonus doesn't it so range is "equal to" unless specifically boosted. - If you actually make use of those midslots for versatility tank drops below that of a Vagabond so again "equal to". - Speed is pretty much the same, perhaps with a slight edge to Cynabal due to lower mass (has lower base spd though) so roughly "equal to". - Didn't know Vagabonds had any fitting issues unless using 425's .. havent heard anything to that effect at any rate. But yea, faction boats are generally swimming in free space compared to vanilla T1. - Five extra lights can be godly, the main reason I prefer Navy Omens over Zealots these days. Haven't seen any Cynabals using lights yet though, they all seem stuck in the drone-bombing mindset and use mediums for more damage. - Just checked, price has gone up since I checked a month ago .. a lot. They were hovering around 130 per unit .. guess sellers wised up. Good for them - Training time is not that much different, it is a rank 5 vs a rank 6 skill. About a weeks worth, hardly noticeable. So I beg to differ, it is "equal to" in a lot of areas, but superior where it counts (speed potential and agility). ...what? Every single one of those points show how stupid you are. The Cynabal is superior to the Vagabond in every single way. ____________ Intigo - go visit www.eve-arena.com for the best Battleclinic killboard replacement yet!
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.04.11 12:50:00 - [105] Originally by: Amarr Supremacist ...what? Every single one of those points show how stupid you are. The Cynabal is superior to the Vagabond in every single way. Do you find that personal insults and blanket statements makes others more likely to believe you and want to continue with polite discourse?
Amarr Supremacist	Posted - 2010.04.11 12:56:00 - [106] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Amarr Supremacist ...what? Every single one of those points show how stupid you are. The Cynabal is superior to the Vagabond in every single way. Do you find that personal insults and blanket statements makes others more likely to believe you and want to continue with polite discourse? Do you find making longer posts gives your post some kind of merit even though all of it is worthless dribble that is just plain wrong? ____________ Intigo - go visit www.eve-arena.com for the best Battleclinic killboard replacement yet!
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.04.11 12:59:00 - [107] Nerf dramial it is clearly op. Oh and only caldari ceptors needs a boost the others are fine ,maybe except malediction but that is due to rockets.
Ghost Nightmare Sons of Damnation MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2010.04.11 14:05:00 - [108] Edited by: Ghost Nightmare on 11/04/2010 14:05:26 Originally by: Hirana Yoshida derp Originally by: Ghost Nightmare derp Speaking as somone who flies Pirate ships, T2 ships and Faction ships into pvp i can tell you that Pirate ships are by far the most powerful. Deimos is a glass cannon, its nicknamed the diemost for a reason..., Vigilant can easily fit a 1600mm plate and a full rack of neutrons, so it deals more damage than its Deimos counterpart and has more tank. Combine that with access to 90% webs, and you have a ship that is better than an Astarte... Id call you on the Cynabal nonsense you spouted, but everyone else seemed to do that. (last time i checked, Cynabals where 300 mil considering that a Vaga is more like 100 spending 3 times as much for the bonuses it gets seems fair. Ashimmu: If a zealot and a pilgrim had a baby this would be it, it neuts like a bastard and deals a fair amount of damage. Not only that but it fits a savage tank Phantasm: 1500 dps shield tank on a crusier while doing 500 dps.... Gila: Makes the Ishtar its *** due to extremely capable shield tank and larger drone bay Worm: Better than an Ishkur, can fit amazing shield tank and is fast.. Daredevil: This does more damage than any frigate in the game, it essentially has 6 turrets due to its bonuses Cruor: if the amarr af and the amarr ewar frig had a steroid baby... Vindicator: 37% damage mod.... 8 turrets... 90% webs.... increased agility.... how does that not make any other blaster boat its ***? my one of these can beat pretty much any similar fit ship in a straight fight, the amount of damage it does is staggering... Bhaalgorn: My one neuts a Battle cruisers entire cap every 24 seconds, while dealing 1000 dps and having a massive buffer tank and webs that reach to 40km overheated.... Nightmare: Amazing shield tank.... with amazing damage....and neuts/nos in utility highslots (this isnt the best example.. maelstrom is almost as good) Mach: its fast.... and big..... really fast and really big... Rattler: Fit passive shield tank and youll be amazed to find it tanks like three times as much as a drake, while dealing gnarly drone damage. Find me a t2/t1/faction ship that can compare with these....
Amarr Supremacist	Posted - 2010.04.11 14:19:00 - [109] Newsflash - writing in red only makes you look stupid. ____________ Intigo - go visit www.eve-arena.com for the best Battleclinic killboard replacement yet!
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.04.11 14:21:00 - [110] Originally by: Ghost Nightmare Phantasm: 1500 dps shield tank on a crusier while doing 500 dps....
Ghost Nightmare Sons of Damnation MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2010.04.11 14:24:00 - [111] Originally by: Amarr Supremacist derp Newsflash - writing in red made you waste 5 minutes writing a response to tell me how writing in red is stupid
Arrador	Posted - 2010.04.11 15:01:00 - [112] The only Advantage the Vagabond has above a cynabal. Is T2 resists.
chrisss0r	Posted - 2010.04.11 15:26:00 - [113] Edited by: chrisss0r on 11/04/2010 15:31:10 saying that the dramiel is balanced because a cynabal is better than a vagabond is bull**** because the equivalent would be a pirate faction cruiser that has better speed and agaility as a vagabond, the same dps as a vagabond and more range than a muninn. The dramiel has better speed/agility than interceptors AND the fighting ability of assault frigs. or to give another example. YES the vigilant wipes the floor with the deimos. Now add the ability to field 5 heavies/sentries and you will have a ship that is what the dram is to the frigs.
Amarr Supremacist	Posted - 2010.04.11 15:37:00 - [114] Originally by: Ghost Nightmare Originally by: Amarr Supremacist derp Newsflash - writing in red made you waste 5 minutes writing a response to tell me how writing in red is stupid 5 minutes? Is that how long it takes for you to post on the forums? Also, your earlier "list" is so hilariously stupid I am getting a smile on my face just reading it. You should probably just quit while you're ahead. ____________ Intigo - go visit www.eve-arena.com for the best Battleclinic killboard replacement yet!
Ghost Nightmare Sons of Damnation MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2010.04.11 15:47:00 - [115] Edited by: Ghost Nightmare on 11/04/2010 15:50:26 Originally by: chrisss0r derp Looks at the cynabal 1. 25% rate of fire bonus 2. 50% damage bonus 3. 50% falloff bonus Seems to me thats got better speed and agility that a vagabond, more dps than a vagabond and muninn and id suggest going to EFT and putting arties on it :P Try flying these ships before you judge them.. Ashimmu 1. Neut bonus of a pilgrim 2. Damage of a zealot 3. Web bonus of a paladin :O looks like this is a common theme throughout pirate ships, we should fly them more than normal ships! hmm Vagabond: 100 mil... Cynabal: 300mil! hmm AF/Ceptor: 15mil... .Dramiel: 70mil! wow if i had the money and could afford the loss, id totally use those ships! Just me who thinks this seems ok? EDIT: Oh wait i totally do have the money and can afford the loss!
Amarr Supremacist	Posted - 2010.04.11 15:48:00 - [116] You are a terrible poster or a genius troll. ____________ Intigo - go visit www.eve-arena.com for the best Battleclinic killboard replacement yet!
Ghost Nightmare Sons of Damnation MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2010.04.11 16:04:00 - [117] Originally by: Amarr Supremacist Originally by: Ghost Nightmare Originally by: Amarr Supremacist derp derp derp 5 mins is how long the multi-post timer is :O! You make me laugh, you may consider your existence justified
Amarr Supremacist	Posted - 2010.04.11 16:12:00 - [118] Avoiding the multi-post timer sure is... ____________ Intigo - go visit www.eve-arena.com for the best Battleclinic killboard replacement yet!
Amarr Supremacist	Posted - 2010.04.11 16:13:00 - [119] ...hard. ____________ Intigo - go visit www.eve-arena.com for the best Battleclinic killboard replacement yet!
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.11 17:18:00 - [120] Originally by: Amarr Supremacist Avoiding the multi-post timer sure is... 16:12:00 Originally by: Amarr Supremacist ...hard. 16:13:00 Witchcraft! It's a witch! Burn it at the stake! (How the hell do you do that?)

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