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Mechanism for removing T2 BPOs.

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Kryss Stevenson Caldari Red Stallion Mercantile and Manufacturing	Posted - 2010.07.27 19:10:00 - [31] How much isk do you need to be competitive??? That is what it comes down to, just pure buying power. I don't have any tech 2 BPOs could care less if they are in the game since I really don't see how they are really affecting my game play. ______________________________ Rock's fine, Nerf paper
Simon Sei	Posted - 2010.07.27 19:11:00 - [32] Really the ONLY area in Eve that is not slanted to the older toons? So you are saying that every T2 BPO is owned by older players? I think you are mistaken there for sure. Sure they are highly valuable, but to simply "get rid of T2 BPO's" is insane. I am 110% sure that if you had a T2 Hulk BPO your opinion would be 180 degrees opposite. Also EVERY aspect of EVE is tilted to the older players. Really, name me one area that a player with 6 months in game can effectively compete against a guy with 4 years. There isn't one. If it has to be bought or killed, an older player will have the advantage of better standings, better skills, or something that allows him to do it better. Moon mining is a limited resource, PI eventually requires selling the stuff and a person with no taxes and better skills will be able to net more profit at any given price. So in the end older players are rewarded for the fact they have played the game longer. And yes some won the lottery and got Hulk BPO's. Good for them, doesn't lessen the enjoyment of the game for 95-99.9% of people who play.
Berikath	Posted - 2010.07.27 19:34:00 - [33] Originally by: LHA Tarawa Originally by: Berikath Originally by: LHA Tarawa stuff Happy middle ground: T2 BPOs stay in the game. They are locked at the max ME/PE available from invention. BPOs are still very valuable, still cut down significantly on costs, but are in the same general ballpark as inventors. Not saying do it, just saying it sounds like a reasonable compromise to me. There are much better compromises than this. They could make the base ME on invented BPCs be 0, limiting the materials advantage to 10% instead of 40%-50% that BPCs have now. Or, they could allow you to pass ME and PE from a BPC through invention to take away even more of that huge advantage BPOs have. Any of these, and even your suggestion of changing the BPOs to have a max ME of what invention can produce all have a significant disadvantage of not compensating current holders for their loss in current advantage. 1. Their advantage is the extra profit margin gives them. Buffing invented BPCs nerfs existing BPOs, just as changing their stats would.... since their value is RELATIVE. As in, RELATIVE to the cost of making the same thing through invention. My suggestion cuts their profit margin by what... 5-10% base mats cost without compensating them, while yours cuts their margin by 30-40% without compensation? Yeah. Lets see which one they think is better. Originally by: LHA Tarawa IF, we had to accept a middle ground, then I'd suggest allowing players to invent BPOs. Make it cost, on average, something like 100 million ISK by requiring thousands of datacores per attempt with a relative low chance of success per chance. This would bring the value of T2 BPOs down slowly over time as more and more of them are created, but would never bring them below the cost of the thousands and thousands of datacores required. In this way, given enough time and effort, anyone would be able to compete with a T2 BPO holder on a level playing field. Yeah. Low chance of success.... get an extremely valuable product... It would almost be like the starting cost would be... let's say, a payment. And let's call that chance a "ticket". Then, some people would be assigned a BPO, let's call that the "prize". Hey, I know! Why don't we just call this whole thing something.... hmm..... it seems like there must be a word which illustrates this concept... OH! I know! lot+ter+y ûnoun, plural -ter+ies. 1. a gambling game or method of raising money, as for some public charitable purpose, in which a large number of tickets are sold and a drawing is held for certain prizes. .... Yeah. That's totally gonna happen.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.07.27 19:45:00 - [34] Originally by: LHA Tarawa Except they can produce with the T2 BPO AND 10 invention lines, What is the problem then?? If T2 BPO holders can also do invention then there isn't a problem with them! Better yet, why would a T2 BPO holder want to do invention? If T2 BPOs are so overpowered and such "I win" items, why do invention if you own one? Oh yeah, because owning a T2 BPO sucks! Invention can outproduce a BPO many times over, making them virtually useless.
LHA Tarawa	Posted - 2010.07.27 22:52:00 - [35] Originally by: Simon Sei Really the ONLY area in Eve that is not slanted to the older toons? Not the only mechanic that is slanted to older players. The only game mechanic where the newer player can't compete on a level playing feild no mater how long he plays or how much he focuses. Originally by: Simon Sei Sure they are highly valuable, but to simply "get rid of T2 BPO's" is insane. Read the title of the post. It isn't "simply get rid of T2 BPOs". It is "Mechanism for removing T2 BPOs. Read the OP. It is all about trying to find idea for compensating the current holders. Originally by: Simon Sei I am 110% sure that if you had a T2 Hulk BPO your opinion would be 180 degrees opposite. And I'm 110% sure that anyone starting a new account is not handed a Hulk BPO, nor is he able to sign up with R&D agents to get points in a lottery for a chance (small, but still a chance) that older players had. This is a thorn in the side of every new industrialist, that no matter how hard they work, focus, strive, they will never be able to compete on a level playing field with the T2 BPO holders. Originally by: Simon Sei Also EVERY aspect of EVE is tilted to the older players. Really, name me one area that a player with 6 months in game can effectively compete against a guy with 4 years. 1 v 1 in a T1 frig or cruiser. Mining in a hulk. Rig manufacturing. Market trading. Exploration for radar sites. Make it 2 years v. 8 years. BC, BS, Invention. After a couple years, you max out on skill applicable to a BS, so someone with 2 years is on an even playing field with someone with 8 years, in a BS. Doesn't matter if I play for 20 years and max out every skill... The T2 BPO holder will still be building for about half to two-thirds my invented BPC cost. T2 BPO is not skill based, it is the result of a broken game mechanic that was removed, but the results of that game mechanic were not removed. Originally by: Simon Sei Moon mining is a limited resource, PI eventually requires selling the stuff and a person with no taxes and better skills will be able to net more profit at any given price. With enough friends, I can take your moon. With enough training, I can learn the skills to sell with no taxes. What skill is it that I can learn that will let me win a T2 BPO in a lottery? How many weeks of training is that skill? Oh, that is right... there is nothing a new player can ever do, even if they spend 20 years trining EVE skills, that will gain him access to a T2 BPO in the way older players were able to get them. A newer player would have to pay half a decade's potential profits to obtain one, and when those costs are appliead to the reasonible ROI usage of the BPO, the new player is still at a great disadvantage to the older player. Originally by: Simon Sei So in the end older players are rewarded for the fact they have played the game longer. And yes some won the lottery and got Hulk BPO's. Good for them, doesn't lessen the enjoyment of the game for 95-99.9% of people who play. Yes, they got the reward, many, many years ago. Why must they continue to get the reward every year? It is long past time for the T2 BPOs to be removed from the game (with just compensation to existing owners).
Aumtecka	Posted - 2010.07.27 23:05:00 - [36] If someone is emo rage quitting over t2 bpos please could they send me thier stuff first? I see no evidence that this is happening. The holders of the t2 bpo's need to be compenseated if they are removed. Myself and a lot of others stick with this game becasue we trust CCP to not totally screw players when a change is made or a new patch comes out. I like the idea of the t2 bpo turning into a BPC even if it has a near infinite supply of runs. 2 years 10 years whatever it's ok with me.
Simon Sei	Posted - 2010.07.27 23:52:00 - [37] Edited by: Simon Sei on 27/07/2010 23:53:25 So go make the Isk and try to buy one. You, like every other player, can sink their Isk into a T2 BPO if thats what you so desire. The fact you might play 8 years and never figure out how to accomplish that goal is your problem. Don't nerf what others have worked to obtain. Whether that was last week or last month, or 3 years ago. The fact that few exist does not make it unfair. By your definition, every Plex and every mission and every anomoly should always be the same and any "chance based result" should be eliminated from EVE. The fact that last week I had a faction spawn in a Sanctum drop a 500M loot should be gotten rid of unless every spawn drops them. SO let me ask, IF you had had a chance to play the lottery for T2 BPO's and like 99% never gotten a Hulk BPO would it then be fair? Is your beef against any chance based systems in EVE, cause correct me if I am wrong, but a 2 month old player could have won a Hulk BPO just as easily as a 6 year old player. Your argument fails to convince me that it needs fixed. Invention still accounts for 90% of high end ships, and the BPO's are needed for lower end stuff that invention can not produce currently. Even as an industrialist I don't come close to emo rage quiting over such a trivial issue.
Stonie Bandit Caldari Fearless Bandits	Posted - 2010.07.27 23:56:00 - [38] Look at the market and then do the math. Those T2 are not seeded by the few that have a T2 BPO. Your compitition is your fellow inventor. Removing T2 BPO wont solve your problem. Newer industrialists will always struggle with those who have max skills. But time, will upgrade your skills, efficiancy and profit. ===== * Your signature is too large. Please note: we do not allow signature files larger than 400x120 - Fallout
vondronage vondronage Corp	Posted - 2010.07.28 00:14:00 - [39] I don't like how the word "compensated" has been thrown around in this thread. I think "incentivized" is a better word to throw around. I know if I spent months or however long saving up to buy one of these things from someone, only to have it yanked out of the game a month later, I would feel cheated.
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.07.28 01:12:00 - [40] Originally by: vondronage I don't like how the word "compensated" has been thrown around in this thread. I think "incentivized" is a better word to throw around. I know if I spent months or however long saving up to buy one of these things from someone, only to have it yanked out of the game a month later, I would feel cheated. Na it wont get yanked, more like pulled gently from your loins by a sexy blonde that promises to give you something in return but doesnt and you still dont feel bad. Then LHA shows up and the emo rage begins.

Fumitsugu Sylwia Guristech	Posted - 2010.07.28 06:45:00 - [41] Tarawa, you're the most unintelligent person on these forums. You always whine about how hard it is to make money in industry. Here is a very simple way: Buy Small Gravity Cap Upgrade BPO for 100k ISK or something. Research PE as ME is already perfect. Build 90 per day for a total cost of 25k per unit (with components from SELL orders) Sell 90 per day for a conservative 100k per unit Tada! If I received a T2 BPO, I'd sell it to some gimp who thinks that this item is an instant win button, and with the few billions in liquid ISK I would make more money in a month than that t2 BPO could do in a year. Probably inventing or building T1 stuff, you bleeding numbskull. Rant over, time for my coffee
Umega Solis Mensa	Posted - 2010.07.28 07:33:00 - [42] Awwwwwww this **ing again ! Originally by:** Dav Varan Group togethor with all your T2 BPO hater buddies. Make donations to a fund. When you have enough isk in the fund , buy some t2 BPO's then trash them. If so many people hate T2 BPO's you should have no problem achiving this goal. There. The EVE way to handle YOUR problem. The funny thing is tho, you keep crying about this and I bet your suffering profits are actual the result of other inventors. Now go buy them and trash them.. chances are tho when you grasp some, you won't trash'em. But do, please.. prove me and others wrong, trash'em. Do it and quit crying for someone else to fix YOUR problem for you. God damn these 'baby needs bottle' threads are getting out of hand everywhere. We don't need a Star Wars patch. ---------------------------------------- -Treat the EVE Market like you're a pimp and it is your 'employee'.. freely fondle it as you wish and make it pay you for it-
Scott Ryder Amarr art of eve Gunmen of the Apocalypse	Posted - 2010.07.28 10:39:00 - [43] Originally by: LHA Tarawa generic whine about t2 bpo owners beeing rich and its unfair I dont own a single t2 bpo yet im good for atleast 300b isk. I have never recieved a t2 bpo. Infact I have bought alot of t1 bpos that I profit monthly and semi passivly from. Stop whining and adapt.
vondronage vondronage Corp	Posted - 2010.07.28 10:55:00 - [44] I would think the ability to have an endless supply of T2 items out in the middle of nowhere would be much more valuable than you could sell any of the items for. If two otherwise evenly matched corps go to war, one of them can produce T2 items via a BPO, the other has to take the extra step of making their T2 BPCs, who is going to win the war ?
Lutz Major Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo	Posted - 2010.07.28 11:28:00 - [45] Originally by: vondronage I would think the ability to have an endless supply of T2 items out in the middle of nowhere would be much more valuable than you could sell any of the items for. If two otherwise evenly matched corps go to war, one of them can produce T2 items via a BPO, the other has to take the extra step of making their T2 BPCs, who is going to win the war ? Your example is maybe the worst in this discussion. But: The second. Due to the plain fact, that the first corp has only ONE production slot clogged with its BPO and the other corp has DOZENS of parallel output with BPCs.
Eastern Promise Guristech	Posted - 2010.07.28 11:30:00 - [46] They don't care, because they're all buying their stuff from Jita 4-4 anyway.
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2010.07.28 11:47:00 - [47] Originally by: vondronage I would think the ability to have an endless supply of T2 items out in the middle of nowhere would be much more valuable than you could sell any of the items for. If two otherwise evenly matched corps go to war, one of them can produce T2 items via a BPO, the other has to take the extra step of making their T2 BPCs, who is going to win the war ? The one with more supercaps. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp
Simon Sei	Posted - 2010.07.28 12:27:00 - [48] Originally by: vondronage I would think the ability to have an endless supply of T2 items out in the middle of nowhere would be much more valuable than you could sell any of the items for. If two otherwise evenly matched corps go to war, one of them can produce T2 items via a BPO, the other has to take the extra step of making their T2 BPCs, who is going to win the war ? The one who loads the node first more often.
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.07.28 12:50:00 - [49] Originally by: LHA Tarawa Since we all know that T2 BPOs are a great evil that drive new players to emo rage quit the game, it is obvious that CCP needs to remove them. No it isn't. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.07.28 13:01:00 - [50] If T2 BPO are so impossible to compete against for inventors, why aren't the margins for eg: HICs and Marauders (no BPO) noticeably better than for Hulks or Ishtars? Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.

Pantload Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2010.07.28 13:43:00 - [51] Originally by: LHA Tarawa Since we all know that T2 BPOs are a great evil that drive new players to emo rage quit the game, it is obvious that CCP needs to remove them. So much concern for new players these days. Or hidden selfish motives that have nothing to do with new players. Hmmm...tough to tell which it is. TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
TheBlueMonkey Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2010.07.28 14:03:00 - [52] Oh thank god for this post, I was beginning to fear that S&I had gotten dull and was all PI this and PI that... Good old T2 BPO's, they're not fair because I don't have one, if I had one I'd be making milk and cookies and being super happy times. Wait... it's an MMO, the hulk bpo holders can't supply the whole market so the **ty invention proffit must come from somewhere else... um... "FREE DATACORES" and other such stupid ideals. Yes a researched bpo will cost less materials and not require reinvention every time but if you're building off that bpo you can only build one at a time and they'll be sold at what ever the lowest inventor is prepared to sell at. It's a free market and unfortunatly that makes it free to ****s too, people who build at under the production cost are your real concern, go pester them instead. -- Nothing is worthless, you may have gotten it for free but it still has an inherent value
Dash Hansom	Posted - 2010.07.28 18:45:00 - [53] I have a better cause for you to champion.... Get CCP to fix the server lag, that way large scale fleet fights can happen. Big fights = Big losses T2 BPO's owners will be so completely overwhelmed by huge demand, that the inventionists will be able to out produce, and by extension out profit the T2 BPO producers. Then all the T2 BPO owners will be leaping onto the forums to demand "nerf invention". Then you can sit back and have a little chuckle to yourself. To make it really easy, here's the link to the latest forum lag protest http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1359784 go on get stuck in, you know it makes sense.
Dramis	Posted - 2010.07.28 21:36:00 - [54] Edited by: Dramis on 28/07/2010 21:36:35 I am still failing to understand what the actual complaint about T2 BPOs is. My brother started a brand new account and after 11 weeks had made 7 Billion ISK. He didn't have any T2 BPOs and he didn't do any scamming. So, please would all the 'vets are so much better off than noobs' whiners shut up and play the game. If you want to make ISK, then make ISK. If you want to invent and build stuff, then invent and build stuff, but stop bleating on the forums, you're getting very boring. P.S. HINT You can make an awful lot of money very easily, then you can buy the T2 BPOs and it won't take you that long if you learn to play the game.
Lutz Major Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo	Posted - 2010.07.28 23:10:00 - [55] Originally by: Dramis HINT You can make an awful lot of money very easily, then you can buy the T2 BPOs and it won't take you that long if you learn to play the game. No. That is exactly the argument LHA and all others are neglecting. It's a just-unfair attitude without recognizing the facts. I think LHA already owns one or more T2 BPOs, but overpaid them and now he is screaming for compensation for his sh!tty prints. At least it's not another PI whine thread
Terbulus	Posted - 2010.07.29 00:52:00 - [56] this thread wins! my eyeballs are sparkling with delight...
Mal Lokrano Gallente The Executives IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.29 02:13:00 - [57] Edited by: Mal Lokrano on 29/07/2010 02:16:10 A friend and I make plenty of profit from invention, thus we do not even notice the T2 BPOs. First off, do you not realize how expensive T2 BPOs go for now? The ROI for one is so figgen huge normally tens of billions. How much is it for invention, maybe 100 mil if your starting out big? Right there invention has a huge advantage, you can build in 10 slots, use multiple characters, and invent at the same time on all of them. This is what me and my bud do and automatically we easily outproduce any bpo. I can outproduce a bpo with a single character. BPOs are not the problem, their market share will continue to fall until they become nearly irrelevant. ____________________________________________ When going to a party with wine, women, and song. Always ascertain the vintage of the first two. Don't bug me ingame about diplomats, I don't know wh
Anane Brother Theo's Monastery The Ancients.	Posted - 2010.07.29 02:35:00 - [58] They won't be removed.. please stop posting this.. this isn't the correct forum for that topic anyway.. its your fault u didn't play earlier.. and if you really want one BUY ONE.. now go away... its not unfair.. its not their fault you haven't played for years...
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2010.07.29 03:09:00 - [59] Originally by: Dav Varan Group togethor with all your T2 BPO hater buddies. Make donations to a fund. When you have enough isk in the fund , buy some t2 BPO's then trash them. That's the appropriate mechanic to remove T2 BPOs from the game while fairly compensating the previous owners. Everyone has their price. -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel]
Nahkep Narmelion Gallente CALIMA COLLABORATIVE	Posted - 2010.07.29 03:49:00 - [60] Originally by: LHA Tarawa Since we all know that T2 BPOs are a great evil that drive new players to emo rage quit the game, it is obvious that CCP needs to remove them. This is the best you can do? Really? I bet more players emo-rage-quit due to low sec gate camps....are you suggesting that we perma-ban low sec pirates? Do try to at least come up with a convincing argument next time you start one of these 'tard threads.



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