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LHA Tarawa	Posted - 2010.07.27 15:36:00 - [1] Since we all know that T2 BPOs are a great evil that drive new players to emo rage quit the game, it is obvious that CCP needs to remove them. So, this thread is devoted to idea on how it can be done. Clearly, logging in one day to simply find them removed is no more acceptable that the current insane disparity between new players and old, so I'll dismiss that out of hand. Some compensation must be given to T2 BPO holders. But what? A year's worth of BPC's? 2 years. Or perhaps the better approach is to allow T2 BPOs to be invented... Say 10K datacores for a 10% chance of inventing a BPO.
Lutz Major Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo	Posted - 2010.07.27 15:54:00 - [2] Not again :( Please stop it HERE!
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.07.27 16:29:00 - [3] Edited by: Breaker77 on 27/07/2010 16:31:25 IBTL, like 2 other threads from you on this exact same topic! edit: oh this too
Dav Varan	Posted - 2010.07.27 16:34:00 - [4] Group togethor with all your T2 BPO hater buddies. Make donations to a fund. When you have enough isk in the fund , buy some t2 BPO's then trash them. If so many people hate T2 BPO's you should have no problem achiving this goal.
Andalael	Posted - 2010.07.27 16:40:00 - [5] if you dont have any good suggestions regarding the subject please do us all a favour and stfu
Pantload Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2010.07.27 16:40:00 - [6] Originally by: Dav Varan Group togethor with all your T2 BPO hater buddies. Make donations to a fund. When you have enough isk in the fund , buy some t2 BPO's then trash them. If so many people hate T2 BPO's you should have no problem achiving this goal. Better yet, team up with the anti-learning skills crowd. They are foaming at the mouth for nerf-batting existing game mechanics and welfare programs for newbs. TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
LHA Tarawa	Posted - 2010.07.27 16:49:00 - [7] So, if I understand what you are all saying.... They should just be removed without any compensation for existing holders? Well, you are right that they must be removed, but I could not disagree more about not offering any compensation to the existing holders.
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.07.27 17:18:00 - [8] Tbh LHA you need to be removed from the game.
Joe SMASH You Got A Purty Mouth	Posted - 2010.07.27 17:20:00 - [9] T2 BPOs are fine. People whining about T2 BPOs are the problem. ----------------------------------- Originally by: Kali Zero Warp core stabilizers are like condoms. Nice and safe, but they make it a little less fun for everyone involved.
Ghoest	Posted - 2010.07.27 17:21:00 - [10] T2 BPOs should have either been removed or relatively nerfed in the last patch if not the one before. Its a joke that they are allowed to remain and a tribute to spineless game devs. Wherever you went - Here you are.

LordThyGod	Posted - 2010.07.27 17:25:00 - [11] t2 bpos come no where near saturating the market, if you cant make a profit then the problem is that your building the same thing as 1000 other people and trying to use jita prices on your materials, and no i dont own any t2 bpo's
LHA Tarawa	Posted - 2010.07.27 17:25:00 - [12] Originally by: Jovialmadness Tbh LHA you need to be removed from the game. Because I think the current T2 BPO holders should be compensated in some way when those T2 BPOs are (and they will be) removed from the game? That is pretty harsh. I knew there were a lot of people that believed that most T2 BPO holders have LONG ago been compensated and that no further compensation is needed, but I didn't know they were this militant.
Pachira Lotus	Posted - 2010.07.27 17:26:00 - [13] Originally by: LHA Tarawa So, if I understand what you are all saying.... They should just be removed without any compensation for existing holders? Well, you are right that they must be removed, but I could not disagree more about not offering any compensation to the existing holders.
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.07.27 17:31:00 - [14] Originally by: LHA Tarawa Originally by: Jovialmadness Tbh LHA you need to be removed from the game. Because I think the current T2 BPO holders should be compensated in some way when those T2 BPOs are (and they will be) removed from the game? That is pretty harsh. I knew there were a lot of people that believed that most T2 BPO holders have LONG ago been compensated and that no further compensation is needed, but I didn't know they were this militant. Im not arguing with you anymore. Your cause is pointless and you are spewing trash spam at this point.
LHA Tarawa	Posted - 2010.07.27 17:34:00 - [15] Originally by: LordThyGod t2 bpos come no where near saturating the market, if you cant make a profit then the problem is that your building the same thing as 1000 other people and trying to use jita prices on your materials, and no i dont own any t2 bpo's That is not the point. Yes, T2 BPOs for most items are unable to fully meet demand, so inventors can get some scraps from the table. This in no way justifies leaving T2 BPOs in the game. Everything about Eve is (and other MMORPGs) designed to make it possible for newer players to eventually compete on a level playing field. Given enough time, I can fly an interceptor, cruiser, frigare, HAC, even dread, or Super carrier as well and ANYONE. Yes, it takes time, yes it takes dedication... but it is possible. This is true of industry as well. I could spend a few months and build as well as anyone, few more months to refine, few more to mine in a hulk as well as anyone, Max skills and standing for best R&D agents, PI, invention, etc, etc, etc. Heck, I could even form a corp, then an alliance, gather enough forces, and maybe even carve out a chunk of 0.0 and run an outpost and many moon mining operations.... The exception is T2 BPOs where new players will NEVER be able to compete on a level playing field. And it is not a slight advantage, it is HUGE!!!! They are going to be removed. This great disparity between new players and old is just too great. Eventually, the number of new players emo raging about this injustice will drown out those that wnat the injustice to persist. The only question is, what is fair compensation for the current owners when they are removed?
LHA Tarawa	Posted - 2010.07.27 17:42:00 - [16] Originally by: Jovialmadness Im not arguing with you anymore. Any more? Argument, noun: A set of statements in which one follows logically as a conclusion from the others. Your previous argument was.... Originally by: Jovialmadness Tbh LHA you need to be removed from the game. You think I should be removed from the game because I think the current owners should be compensated when the T2 BPOs are removed, and you think the T2 BPOs should be removed without any compnesation given to the current owners... That is not an argument, it is a statement. Originally by: Jovialmadness Your cause is pointless and you are spewing trash spam at this point. Because.... Originally by: Jovialmadness Tbh LHA you need to be removed from the game. Is such an insightful and valuable post in comparison to my "trash spam". Hmmmmmm...
Simon Sei	Posted - 2010.07.27 17:52:00 - [17] Originally by: LHA Tarawa Originally by: LordThyGod t2 bpos come no where near saturating the market, if you cant make a profit then the problem is that your building the same thing as 1000 other people and trying to use jita prices on your materials, and no i dont own any t2 bpo's That is not the point. Yes, T2 BPOs for most items are unable to fully meet demand, so inventors can get some scraps from the table. This in no way justifies leaving T2 BPOs in the game. Everything about Eve is (and other MMORPGs) designed to make it possible for newer players to eventually compete on a level playing field. Given enough time, I can fly an interceptor, cruiser, frigare, HAC, even dread, or Super carrier as well and ANYONE. Yes, it takes time, yes it takes dedication... but it is possible. This is true of industry as well. I could spend a few months and build as well as anyone, few more months to refine, few more to mine in a hulk as well as anyone, Max skills and standing for best R&D agents, PI, invention, etc, etc, etc. Heck, I could even form a corp, then an alliance, gather enough forces, and maybe even carve out a chunk of 0.0 and run an outpost and many moon mining operations.... The exception is T2 BPOs where new players will NEVER be able to compete on a level playing field. And it is not a slight advantage, it is HUGE!!!! They are going to be removed. This great disparity between new players and old is just too great. Eventually, the number of new players emo raging about this injustice will drown out those that wnat the injustice to persist. The only question is, what is fair compensation for the current owners when they are removed? Please, seriously, get real. You act like this is the worst thing in the world. First there are so many T2 items that would NEVER be invented if it was not for T2 BPO's. Almost every Small and Medium Item would skyrocket in price if they had to be made viw invention. Not to mention we would suddenly have a vast drought of items available unless CCP drastically changed the invention game mechanics. People think PI is a "Click Fest" must never have done invention. Not only is it a Click Fest, its a Click Fest that requires a POS in almost all cases. Sure, it makes it hard to compete with on top end ships and stuff, like the Hulk, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water by ending all T2 BPO's. And you are not prohibited by being a new player from going out and trying to obtain T2 BPO's. I would wager you have a better chance of making that happen then finding a good Moon to moon mine. Face it EvE, like life, is not a level playing field. By your "fairness" clause, the game will never be fair, cause yes, the game is stacked against the new players. Deal with it and stop trying to change the game mechanics because of a few high end T2 ships that you cant make as cheaply as players who "won the lottery".
Berikath	Posted - 2010.07.27 17:56:00 - [18] Originally by: LHA Tarawa Since we all know that T2 BPOs are a great evil that drive new players to emo rage quit the game, it is obvious that CCP needs to remove them. So, this thread is devoted to idea on how it can be done. Clearly, logging in one day to simply find them removed is no more acceptable that the current insane disparity between new players and old, so I'll dismiss that out of hand. Some compensation must be given to T2 BPO holders. But what? A year's worth of BPC's? 2 years. Or perhaps the better approach is to allow T2 BPOs to be invented... Say 10K datacores for a 10% chance of inventing a BPO. Happy middle ground: T2 BPOs stay in the game. They are locked at the max ME/PE available from invention. BPOs are still very valuable, still cut down significantly on costs, but are in the same general ballpark as inventors. Not saying do it, just saying it sounds like a reasonable compromise to me.
LHA Tarawa	Posted - 2010.07.27 18:04:00 - [19] Originally by: Berikath Originally by: LHA Tarawa Since we all know that T2 BPOs are a great evil that drive new players to emo rage quit the game, it is obvious that CCP needs to remove them. So, this thread is devoted to idea on how it can be done. Clearly, logging in one day to simply find them removed is no more acceptable that the current insane disparity between new players and old, so I'll dismiss that out of hand. Some compensation must be given to T2 BPO holders. But what? A year's worth of BPC's? 2 years. Or perhaps the better approach is to allow T2 BPOs to be invented... Say 10K datacores for a 10% chance of inventing a BPO. Happy middle ground: T2 BPOs stay in the game. They are locked at the max ME/PE available from invention. BPOs are still very valuable, still cut down significantly on costs, but are in the same general ballpark as inventors. Not saying do it, just saying it sounds like a reasonable compromise to me. There are much better compromises than this. They could make the base ME on invented BPCs be 0, limiting the materials advantage to 10% instead of 40%-50% that BPCs have now. Or, they could allow you to pass ME and PE from a BPC through invention to take away even more of that huge advantage BPOs have. Any of these, and even your suggestion of changing the BPOs to have a max ME of what invention can produce all have a significant disadvantage of not compensating current holders for their loss in current advantage. IF, we had to accept a middle ground, then I'd suggest allowing players to invent BPOs. Make it cost, on average, something like 100 million ISK by requiring thousands of datacores per attempt with a relative low chance fo success per chance. This would bring the value of T2 BPOs down slowly over time as more and more of them are created, but would never bring them below the cost of the thousands and thousands of datacores required. In this way, given enough time and effort, anyone would be able to compete with a T2 BPO holder on a level playing field.
Di Mulle	Posted - 2010.07.27 18:09:00 - [20] Originally by: Dav Varan Group togethor with all your T2 BPO hater buddies. Make donations to a fund. When you have enough isk in the fund , buy some t2 BPO's then trash them. If so many people hate T2 BPO's you should have no problem achiving this goal. Really ingenious, true EVE style. I support.

LHA Tarawa	Posted - 2010.07.27 18:14:00 - [21] Originally by: Simon Sei Please, seriously, get real. You act like this is the worst thing in the world. Not the first thing in the world. This isn't genocidal ** gangs wondering through Darfor. It is just the absolute worst mechanic in the game, by far. Originally by:** Simon Sei First there are so many T2 items that would NEVER be invented if it was not for T2 BPO's. Well, if BPO holders were compensated with many years worth of BPOs, this would not be a probelm for a very long time. Long enough for CCP to tweak the invention mechanic. Originally by: Simon Sei Almost every Small and Medium Item would skyrocket in price if they had to be made viw invention. Not to mention we would suddenly have a vast drought of items available unless CCP drastically changed the invention game mechanics. People think PI is a "Click Fest" must never have done invention. Not only is it a Click Fest, its a Click Fest that requires a POS in almost all cases. The reason invention sucks is to maintain the advantage of current T2 BPO holders. There is no reason they could not tweak invention at the same time T2 BPOs are removed. Pass through ME/PE. Make the number of datacores relative to the number of copies on the BPC and make the numebr of copies to be passed through to allow you to make large batch invention runs. Originally by: Simon Sei Sure, it makes it hard to compete with on top end ships and stuff, like the Hulk, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water by ending all T2 BPO's. T2 BPOs are the one game mechanic where newer players can not hope to compete with older players, regardless of how much time and effort they dedicate to it. Originally by: Simon Sei And you are not prohibited by being a new player from going out and trying to obtain T2 BPO's. I would wager you have a better chance of making that happen then finding a good Moon to moon mine. Originally by: Simon Sei By your "fairness" clause, the game will never be fair, cause yes, the game is stacked against the new players. Deal with it and stop trying to change the game mechanics because of a few high end T2 ships that you cant make as cheaply as players who "won the lottery". It is not just high end. EVERY T2 item that has a BPO can be built much more cheaply (something like half the price on average) with a well researched BPO than with the CRAP ME BPCs that come out of invention. If the foot were on the other shoe, you would not feel the same. T2 BPOs = EVE in easy mode for older players and newer platers stand no chace of ever being able to compete on a level playing field. This is the ONE AND ONLY activity in EVE where this is true.
Wendi Watson	Posted - 2010.07.27 18:25:00 - [22] Aww jeez, not this crap again.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2010.07.27 18:29:00 - [23] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 27/07/2010 18:31:13 Originally by: LHA Tarawa Since we all know that T2 BPOs are a great evil that drive new players to emo rage quit the game, it is obvious that CCP needs to remove them. Apparently you are the only one that really cares. So when you will "emo rage quit"? Originally by: Ghoest T2 BPOs should have either been removed or relatively nerfed in the last patch if not the one before. They were nerfed in Trinity. It seem you haven't jet noticed.
LHA Tarawa	Posted - 2010.07.27 18:31:00 - [24] Originally by: Wendi Watson Aww jeez, not this crap again. Again? The massive inequity between onler players and newer was removed, then brought back? Wow, I thought that would have been huge news. I thought it was "this crap STILL"! I thought it shocking that CCP could let newer players be screwed over this badly for this long. I find it even MORE shocking that they resoved it, then let it come back again! If T2 BPOs are removed again, please sned me a mail so that I don't miss it like it seems I did the last time.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.07.27 18:35:00 - [25] Originally by: LHA Tarawa So, this thread is devoted to idea on how it can be done. NPC "WTB" contracts that keep refreshing and going up in value until all T2 BPOs of that type are gone That is the only "fair" way _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
LHA Tarawa	Posted - 2010.07.27 18:47:00 - [26] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: LHA Tarawa So, this thread is devoted to idea on how it can be done. NPC "WTB" contracts that keep refreshing and going up in value until all T2 BPOs of that type are gone That is the only "fair" way Convert them to BPCs with 5 years of runs, then you get a % of the payout based on the % of copies still on the BPC when you finally sell to the NPC buy order. Start it fairly low and take years to get to current contract sell price. (People buying at that price expect it to take years to pay back anyway). Want infiante pay out, fine... stop using it while you wait decades for the NPC buy order to reach some insane price point that you finally sell.
Kryss Stevenson Caldari Red Stallion Mercantile and Manufacturing	Posted - 2010.07.27 18:54:00 - [27] Mmm... I think my 10 invention lines versus 1 BPO still wins in the end. I just out produce them. There are not enough tech 2 BPOs in game to make them that game breaking. More likely it is the inventors that want to sell no matter what the cost is. ______________________________ Rock's fine, Nerf paper
LHA Tarawa	Posted - 2010.07.27 18:54:00 - [28] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: LHA Tarawa So, this thread is devoted to idea on how it can be done. NPC "WTB" contracts that keep refreshing and going up in value until all T2 BPOs of that type are gone That is the only "fair" way Oh... better yet... Start the buy orders at whatever the highest contract price was (prior to some cut off date pre news leaking). Then make it go up by about a reasonible per-day profit would have been for T2 BPO. The same day the buy orders go up, invention is fixed to pass ME, PE, and copies of the BPC through to the T2 BPC, and to make datacores relative to the number of copies. This removes the great advantage of T2 BPOs so that there is no reason not to sell the T2 BPO at the previous high contract price. Great idea Akita, just needed a little "fleshing out".
LHA Tarawa	Posted - 2010.07.27 18:59:00 - [29] Originally by: Kryss Stevenson Mmm... I think my 10 invention lines versus 1 BPO still wins in the end. I just out produce them. There are not enough tech 2 BPOs in game to make them that game breaking. More likely it is the inventors that want to sell no matter what the cost is. Except they can produce with the T2 BPO AND 10 invention lines, and just re-won in the end. I'm not complaining that some things sell at unprofitable levels. I'm complaining about the fact that newer players, reegardless of how much time and focus they put into it, can never compete on a level playing field with T2 BPO holders... This is the only aspect of EVE where this is true. In all other areas, eventually a newb will be able to compete on a level playing field. T2 BPOs must go.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.07.27 19:03:00 - [30] Edited by: Akita T on 27/07/2010 19:04:32 Originally by: LHA Tarawa Originally by: Akita T Originally by: LHA Tarawa So, this thread is devoted to idea on how it can be done. NPC "WTB" contracts that keep refreshing and going up in value until all T2 BPOs of that type are gone That is the only "fair" way Oh... better yet... Start the buy orders at whatever the highest contract price was (prior to some cut off date pre news leaking). Then make it go up by about a reasonible per-day profit would have been for T2 BPO. The same day the buy orders go up, invention is fixed to pass ME, PE, and copies of the BPC through to the T2 BPC, and to make datacores relative to the number of copies. This removes the great advantage of T2 BPOs so that there is no reason not to sell the T2 BPO at the previous high contract price. Great idea Akita, just needed a little "fleshing out". And how exactly does that fix your PRIMARY stated concern of "NOT giving older players an advantage" ? I'd call giving them truckloads of ISK a pretty good and clear advantage. Originally by: LHA Tarawa T2 BPOs must go. I still have to see an argument for why they MUST go. So far all I've seen are arguments for "why I, the poster of this, would prefer T2 BPOs to go away". _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _

Kryss Stevenson Caldari Red Stallion Mercantile and Manufacturing	Posted - 2010.07.27 19:10:00 - [31] How much isk do you need to be competitive??? That is what it comes down to, just pure buying power. I don't have any tech 2 BPOs could care less if they are in the game since I really don't see how they are really affecting my game play. ______________________________ Rock's fine, Nerf paper
Simon Sei	Posted - 2010.07.27 19:11:00 - [32] Really the ONLY area in Eve that is not slanted to the older toons? So you are saying that every T2 BPO is owned by older players? I think you are mistaken there for sure. Sure they are highly valuable, but to simply "get rid of T2 BPO's" is insane. I am 110% sure that if you had a T2 Hulk BPO your opinion would be 180 degrees opposite. Also EVERY aspect of EVE is tilted to the older players. Really, name me one area that a player with 6 months in game can effectively compete against a guy with 4 years. There isn't one. If it has to be bought or killed, an older player will have the advantage of better standings, better skills, or something that allows him to do it better. Moon mining is a limited resource, PI eventually requires selling the stuff and a person with no taxes and better skills will be able to net more profit at any given price. So in the end older players are rewarded for the fact they have played the game longer. And yes some won the lottery and got Hulk BPO's. Good for them, doesn't lessen the enjoyment of the game for 95-99.9% of people who play.
Berikath	Posted - 2010.07.27 19:34:00 - [33] Originally by: LHA Tarawa Originally by: Berikath Originally by: LHA Tarawa stuff Happy middle ground: T2 BPOs stay in the game. They are locked at the max ME/PE available from invention. BPOs are still very valuable, still cut down significantly on costs, but are in the same general ballpark as inventors. Not saying do it, just saying it sounds like a reasonable compromise to me. There are much better compromises than this. They could make the base ME on invented BPCs be 0, limiting the materials advantage to 10% instead of 40%-50% that BPCs have now. Or, they could allow you to pass ME and PE from a BPC through invention to take away even more of that huge advantage BPOs have. Any of these, and even your suggestion of changing the BPOs to have a max ME of what invention can produce all have a significant disadvantage of not compensating current holders for their loss in current advantage. 1. Their advantage is the extra profit margin gives them. Buffing invented BPCs nerfs existing BPOs, just as changing their stats would.... since their value is RELATIVE. As in, RELATIVE to the cost of making the same thing through invention. My suggestion cuts their profit margin by what... 5-10% base mats cost without compensating them, while yours cuts their margin by 30-40% without compensation? Yeah. Lets see which one they think is better. Originally by: LHA Tarawa IF, we had to accept a middle ground, then I'd suggest allowing players to invent BPOs. Make it cost, on average, something like 100 million ISK by requiring thousands of datacores per attempt with a relative low chance of success per chance. This would bring the value of T2 BPOs down slowly over time as more and more of them are created, but would never bring them below the cost of the thousands and thousands of datacores required. In this way, given enough time and effort, anyone would be able to compete with a T2 BPO holder on a level playing field. Yeah. Low chance of success.... get an extremely valuable product... It would almost be like the starting cost would be... let's say, a payment. And let's call that chance a "ticket". Then, some people would be assigned a BPO, let's call that the "prize". Hey, I know! Why don't we just call this whole thing something.... hmm..... it seems like there must be a word which illustrates this concept... OH! I know! lot+ter+y ûnoun, plural -ter+ies. 1. a gambling game or method of raising money, as for some public charitable purpose, in which a large number of tickets are sold and a drawing is held for certain prizes. .... Yeah. That's totally gonna happen.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.07.27 19:45:00 - [34] Originally by: LHA Tarawa Except they can produce with the T2 BPO AND 10 invention lines, What is the problem then?? If T2 BPO holders can also do invention then there isn't a problem with them! Better yet, why would a T2 BPO holder want to do invention? If T2 BPOs are so overpowered and such "I win" items, why do invention if you own one? Oh yeah, because owning a T2 BPO sucks! Invention can outproduce a BPO many times over, making them virtually useless.
LHA Tarawa	Posted - 2010.07.27 22:52:00 - [35] Originally by: Simon Sei Really the ONLY area in Eve that is not slanted to the older toons? Not the only mechanic that is slanted to older players. The only game mechanic where the newer player can't compete on a level playing feild no mater how long he plays or how much he focuses. Originally by: Simon Sei Sure they are highly valuable, but to simply "get rid of T2 BPO's" is insane. Read the title of the post. It isn't "simply get rid of T2 BPOs". It is "Mechanism for removing T2 BPOs. Read the OP. It is all about trying to find idea for compensating the current holders. Originally by: Simon Sei I am 110% sure that if you had a T2 Hulk BPO your opinion would be 180 degrees opposite. And I'm 110% sure that anyone starting a new account is not handed a Hulk BPO, nor is he able to sign up with R&D agents to get points in a lottery for a chance (small, but still a chance) that older players had. This is a thorn in the side of every new industrialist, that no matter how hard they work, focus, strive, they will never be able to compete on a level playing field with the T2 BPO holders. Originally by: Simon Sei Also EVERY aspect of EVE is tilted to the older players. Really, name me one area that a player with 6 months in game can effectively compete against a guy with 4 years. 1 v 1 in a T1 frig or cruiser. Mining in a hulk. Rig manufacturing. Market trading. Exploration for radar sites. Make it 2 years v. 8 years. BC, BS, Invention. After a couple years, you max out on skill applicable to a BS, so someone with 2 years is on an even playing field with someone with 8 years, in a BS. Doesn't matter if I play for 20 years and max out every skill... The T2 BPO holder will still be building for about half to two-thirds my invented BPC cost. T2 BPO is not skill based, it is the result of a broken game mechanic that was removed, but the results of that game mechanic were not removed. Originally by: Simon Sei Moon mining is a limited resource, PI eventually requires selling the stuff and a person with no taxes and better skills will be able to net more profit at any given price. With enough friends, I can take your moon. With enough training, I can learn the skills to sell with no taxes. What skill is it that I can learn that will let me win a T2 BPO in a lottery? How many weeks of training is that skill? Oh, that is right... there is nothing a new player can ever do, even if they spend 20 years trining EVE skills, that will gain him access to a T2 BPO in the way older players were able to get them. A newer player would have to pay half a decade's potential profits to obtain one, and when those costs are appliead to the reasonible ROI usage of the BPO, the new player is still at a great disadvantage to the older player. Originally by: Simon Sei So in the end older players are rewarded for the fact they have played the game longer. And yes some won the lottery and got Hulk BPO's. Good for them, doesn't lessen the enjoyment of the game for 95-99.9% of people who play. Yes, they got the reward, many, many years ago. Why must they continue to get the reward every year? It is long past time for the T2 BPOs to be removed from the game (with just compensation to existing owners).
Aumtecka	Posted - 2010.07.27 23:05:00 - [36] If someone is emo rage quitting over t2 bpos please could they send me thier stuff first? I see no evidence that this is happening. The holders of the t2 bpo's need to be compenseated if they are removed. Myself and a lot of others stick with this game becasue we trust CCP to not totally screw players when a change is made or a new patch comes out. I like the idea of the t2 bpo turning into a BPC even if it has a near infinite supply of runs. 2 years 10 years whatever it's ok with me.
Simon Sei	Posted - 2010.07.27 23:52:00 - [37] Edited by: Simon Sei on 27/07/2010 23:53:25 So go make the Isk and try to buy one. You, like every other player, can sink their Isk into a T2 BPO if thats what you so desire. The fact you might play 8 years and never figure out how to accomplish that goal is your problem. Don't nerf what others have worked to obtain. Whether that was last week or last month, or 3 years ago. The fact that few exist does not make it unfair. By your definition, every Plex and every mission and every anomoly should always be the same and any "chance based result" should be eliminated from EVE. The fact that last week I had a faction spawn in a Sanctum drop a 500M loot should be gotten rid of unless every spawn drops them. SO let me ask, IF you had had a chance to play the lottery for T2 BPO's and like 99% never gotten a Hulk BPO would it then be fair? Is your beef against any chance based systems in EVE, cause correct me if I am wrong, but a 2 month old player could have won a Hulk BPO just as easily as a 6 year old player. Your argument fails to convince me that it needs fixed. Invention still accounts for 90% of high end ships, and the BPO's are needed for lower end stuff that invention can not produce currently. Even as an industrialist I don't come close to emo rage quiting over such a trivial issue.
Stonie Bandit Caldari Fearless Bandits	Posted - 2010.07.27 23:56:00 - [38] Look at the market and then do the math. Those T2 are not seeded by the few that have a T2 BPO. Your compitition is your fellow inventor. Removing T2 BPO wont solve your problem. Newer industrialists will always struggle with those who have max skills. But time, will upgrade your skills, efficiancy and profit. ===== * Your signature is too large. Please note: we do not allow signature files larger than 400x120 - Fallout
vondronage vondronage Corp	Posted - 2010.07.28 00:14:00 - [39] I don't like how the word "compensated" has been thrown around in this thread. I think "incentivized" is a better word to throw around. I know if I spent months or however long saving up to buy one of these things from someone, only to have it yanked out of the game a month later, I would feel cheated.
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.07.28 01:12:00 - [40] Originally by: vondronage I don't like how the word "compensated" has been thrown around in this thread. I think "incentivized" is a better word to throw around. I know if I spent months or however long saving up to buy one of these things from someone, only to have it yanked out of the game a month later, I would feel cheated. Na it wont get yanked, more like pulled gently from your loins by a sexy blonde that promises to give you something in return but doesnt and you still dont feel bad. Then LHA shows up and the emo rage begins.

Fumitsugu Sylwia Guristech	Posted - 2010.07.28 06:45:00 - [41] Tarawa, you're the most unintelligent person on these forums. You always whine about how hard it is to make money in industry. Here is a very simple way: Buy Small Gravity Cap Upgrade BPO for 100k ISK or something. Research PE as ME is already perfect. Build 90 per day for a total cost of 25k per unit (with components from SELL orders) Sell 90 per day for a conservative 100k per unit Tada! If I received a T2 BPO, I'd sell it to some gimp who thinks that this item is an instant win button, and with the few billions in liquid ISK I would make more money in a month than that t2 BPO could do in a year. Probably inventing or building T1 stuff, you bleeding numbskull. Rant over, time for my coffee
Umega Solis Mensa	Posted - 2010.07.28 07:33:00 - [42] Awwwwwww this **ing again ! Originally by:** Dav Varan Group togethor with all your T2 BPO hater buddies. Make donations to a fund. When you have enough isk in the fund , buy some t2 BPO's then trash them. If so many people hate T2 BPO's you should have no problem achiving this goal. There. The EVE way to handle YOUR problem. The funny thing is tho, you keep crying about this and I bet your suffering profits are actual the result of other inventors. Now go buy them and trash them.. chances are tho when you grasp some, you won't trash'em. But do, please.. prove me and others wrong, trash'em. Do it and quit crying for someone else to fix YOUR problem for you. God damn these 'baby needs bottle' threads are getting out of hand everywhere. We don't need a Star Wars patch. ---------------------------------------- -Treat the EVE Market like you're a pimp and it is your 'employee'.. freely fondle it as you wish and make it pay you for it-
Scott Ryder Amarr art of eve Gunmen of the Apocalypse	Posted - 2010.07.28 10:39:00 - [43] Originally by: LHA Tarawa generic whine about t2 bpo owners beeing rich and its unfair I dont own a single t2 bpo yet im good for atleast 300b isk. I have never recieved a t2 bpo. Infact I have bought alot of t1 bpos that I profit monthly and semi passivly from. Stop whining and adapt.
vondronage vondronage Corp	Posted - 2010.07.28 10:55:00 - [44] I would think the ability to have an endless supply of T2 items out in the middle of nowhere would be much more valuable than you could sell any of the items for. If two otherwise evenly matched corps go to war, one of them can produce T2 items via a BPO, the other has to take the extra step of making their T2 BPCs, who is going to win the war ?
Lutz Major Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo	Posted - 2010.07.28 11:28:00 - [45] Originally by: vondronage I would think the ability to have an endless supply of T2 items out in the middle of nowhere would be much more valuable than you could sell any of the items for. If two otherwise evenly matched corps go to war, one of them can produce T2 items via a BPO, the other has to take the extra step of making their T2 BPCs, who is going to win the war ? Your example is maybe the worst in this discussion. But: The second. Due to the plain fact, that the first corp has only ONE production slot clogged with its BPO and the other corp has DOZENS of parallel output with BPCs.
Eastern Promise Guristech	Posted - 2010.07.28 11:30:00 - [46] They don't care, because they're all buying their stuff from Jita 4-4 anyway.
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2010.07.28 11:47:00 - [47] Originally by: vondronage I would think the ability to have an endless supply of T2 items out in the middle of nowhere would be much more valuable than you could sell any of the items for. If two otherwise evenly matched corps go to war, one of them can produce T2 items via a BPO, the other has to take the extra step of making their T2 BPCs, who is going to win the war ? The one with more supercaps. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp
Simon Sei	Posted - 2010.07.28 12:27:00 - [48] Originally by: vondronage I would think the ability to have an endless supply of T2 items out in the middle of nowhere would be much more valuable than you could sell any of the items for. If two otherwise evenly matched corps go to war, one of them can produce T2 items via a BPO, the other has to take the extra step of making their T2 BPCs, who is going to win the war ? The one who loads the node first more often.
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.07.28 12:50:00 - [49] Originally by: LHA Tarawa Since we all know that T2 BPOs are a great evil that drive new players to emo rage quit the game, it is obvious that CCP needs to remove them. No it isn't. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.07.28 13:01:00 - [50] If T2 BPO are so impossible to compete against for inventors, why aren't the margins for eg: HICs and Marauders (no BPO) noticeably better than for Hulks or Ishtars? Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.

Pantload Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2010.07.28 13:43:00 - [51] Originally by: LHA Tarawa Since we all know that T2 BPOs are a great evil that drive new players to emo rage quit the game, it is obvious that CCP needs to remove them. So much concern for new players these days. Or hidden selfish motives that have nothing to do with new players. Hmmm...tough to tell which it is. TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
TheBlueMonkey Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2010.07.28 14:03:00 - [52] Oh thank god for this post, I was beginning to fear that S&I had gotten dull and was all PI this and PI that... Good old T2 BPO's, they're not fair because I don't have one, if I had one I'd be making milk and cookies and being super happy times. Wait... it's an MMO, the hulk bpo holders can't supply the whole market so the **ty invention proffit must come from somewhere else... um... "FREE DATACORES" and other such stupid ideals. Yes a researched bpo will cost less materials and not require reinvention every time but if you're building off that bpo you can only build one at a time and they'll be sold at what ever the lowest inventor is prepared to sell at. It's a free market and unfortunatly that makes it free to ****s too, people who build at under the production cost are your real concern, go pester them instead. -- Nothing is worthless, you may have gotten it for free but it still has an inherent value
Dash Hansom	Posted - 2010.07.28 18:45:00 - [53] I have a better cause for you to champion.... Get CCP to fix the server lag, that way large scale fleet fights can happen. Big fights = Big losses T2 BPO's owners will be so completely overwhelmed by huge demand, that the inventionists will be able to out produce, and by extension out profit the T2 BPO producers. Then all the T2 BPO owners will be leaping onto the forums to demand "nerf invention". Then you can sit back and have a little chuckle to yourself. To make it really easy, here's the link to the latest forum lag protest http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1359784 go on get stuck in, you know it makes sense.
Dramis	Posted - 2010.07.28 21:36:00 - [54] Edited by: Dramis on 28/07/2010 21:36:35 I am still failing to understand what the actual complaint about T2 BPOs is. My brother started a brand new account and after 11 weeks had made 7 Billion ISK. He didn't have any T2 BPOs and he didn't do any scamming. So, please would all the 'vets are so much better off than noobs' whiners shut up and play the game. If you want to make ISK, then make ISK. If you want to invent and build stuff, then invent and build stuff, but stop bleating on the forums, you're getting very boring. P.S. HINT You can make an awful lot of money very easily, then you can buy the T2 BPOs and it won't take you that long if you learn to play the game.
Lutz Major Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo	Posted - 2010.07.28 23:10:00 - [55] Originally by: Dramis HINT You can make an awful lot of money very easily, then you can buy the T2 BPOs and it won't take you that long if you learn to play the game. No. That is exactly the argument LHA and all others are neglecting. It's a just-unfair attitude without recognizing the facts. I think LHA already owns one or more T2 BPOs, but overpaid them and now he is screaming for compensation for his sh!tty prints. At least it's not another PI whine thread
Terbulus	Posted - 2010.07.29 00:52:00 - [56] this thread wins! my eyeballs are sparkling with delight...
Mal Lokrano Gallente The Executives IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.29 02:13:00 - [57] Edited by: Mal Lokrano on 29/07/2010 02:16:10 A friend and I make plenty of profit from invention, thus we do not even notice the T2 BPOs. First off, do you not realize how expensive T2 BPOs go for now? The ROI for one is so figgen huge normally tens of billions. How much is it for invention, maybe 100 mil if your starting out big? Right there invention has a huge advantage, you can build in 10 slots, use multiple characters, and invent at the same time on all of them. This is what me and my bud do and automatically we easily outproduce any bpo. I can outproduce a bpo with a single character. BPOs are not the problem, their market share will continue to fall until they become nearly irrelevant. ____________________________________________ When going to a party with wine, women, and song. Always ascertain the vintage of the first two. Don't bug me ingame about diplomats, I don't know wh
Anane Brother Theo's Monastery The Ancients.	Posted - 2010.07.29 02:35:00 - [58] They won't be removed.. please stop posting this.. this isn't the correct forum for that topic anyway.. its your fault u didn't play earlier.. and if you really want one BUY ONE.. now go away... its not unfair.. its not their fault you haven't played for years...
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2010.07.29 03:09:00 - [59] Originally by: Dav Varan Group togethor with all your T2 BPO hater buddies. Make donations to a fund. When you have enough isk in the fund , buy some t2 BPO's then trash them. That's the appropriate mechanic to remove T2 BPOs from the game while fairly compensating the previous owners. Everyone has their price. -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel]
Nahkep Narmelion Gallente CALIMA COLLABORATIVE	Posted - 2010.07.29 03:49:00 - [60] Originally by: LHA Tarawa Since we all know that T2 BPOs are a great evil that drive new players to emo rage quit the game, it is obvious that CCP needs to remove them. This is the best you can do? Really? I bet more players emo-rage-quit due to low sec gate camps....are you suggesting that we perma-ban low sec pirates? Do try to at least come up with a convincing argument next time you start one of these 'tard threads.

Mandos2k Gallente Divinity Within	Posted - 2010.07.29 12:01:00 - [61] T2 BPOs give an unfair advantage and all these cry babies know it. Otherwise they wouldn't be whining and whining and whining so much each time someone points this flaw out. Nevertheless they should not be removed. Some of their arguments do hold some merit and shock make sense. Instead the mechanic how T2 BPOs work should be changed. Let's have a look at T2 BPOs and invention: Invention Involves recurring costs to acquire BPCs. BPC gained through invention are inefficient due to bad ME and PE levels. Their ME and PE cannot be researched. A BPC cannot be copied. BPCs gained through invention have limited runs. T2 BPOs Once acquired there are no further costs. T2 BPOs are efficient as they have at least ME and PE levels of 0. Their ME and PE can be researched. T2 BPOs can be copied. T2 BPOs have unlimited runs. To offset this persistent gap the handling of T2 BPOs has to be changed: When a T2 BPO is being used it receives damage and gets worn out over time. To prevent the loss of a T2 BPO it can be "invented" the same way a BPC would be for that particular item: If the invention job fails the BPO loses a percentage of its ME and PE level which both can also become negative. If the invention job succeeds the endured damage gets reseted, e.g. the T2 BPO is "repaired". The ME and PE levels can still be researched as of now. To copy a T2 BPO it has to be "invented" under the same principles as mentioned above. Voila! T2 BPOs still hold an advantage, no one lost his precious gem, investments made into the BPO still hold value and the gap between invention and T2 BPOs has been lessened by introducing running costs similar to those of inventors.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.07.29 12:31:00 - [62] Originally by: Mandos2k T2 BPOs Once acquired there are no further costs. T2 BPOs are efficient as they have at least ME and PE levels of 0. Both are somewhat true. Quote: Their ME and PE can be researched. Using materials and taking a lot of time for even 1 level. Quote: T2 BPOs can be copied. Copy times are longer than production times. You would have to be silly to copy them. Quote: T2 BPOs have unlimited runs. Yet you can only queue up 30 days of production with them. If you want more than that you either have to acquire more BPOs or do invention. If you are going to do invention then why buy a T2 BPO in the first place?
Widemouth Deepthroat	Posted - 2010.07.29 14:25:00 - [63] so what does 30 days limit on production queue have to do with unlimited runs? Red herring much?
Sigras	Posted - 2010.07.29 18:05:00 - [64] You guys realize that saying T2 BPOs give an unfair advantage in industry is like saying the state issue raven gives an unfair advantage in PVP. You do know these things can be bought and sold right? Earlier in this thread someone said that T2 BPOs gave an unfair and insurmountable advantage to the owners. This is wrong for two reasons. 1. These BPOs can be purchased 2. Opportunity cost I fail to see how so many people just can't grasp this concept. . . Here's a link to Wikipedia for those who were asleep in economics 101 opportunity cost
captain foivos	Posted - 2010.07.29 18:58:00 - [65] But...but...but I thought the minerals I mined myself were free!
Nahkep Narmelion Gallente CALIMA COLLABORATIVE	Posted - 2010.07.30 02:54:00 - [66] Originally by: Mandos2k Let's have a look at T2 BPOs and invention: T2 BPOs Once acquired there are no further costs. T2 BPOs are efficient as they have at least ME and PE levels of 0. Their ME and PE can be researched. T2 BPOs can be copied. T2 BPOs have unlimited runs. 1. This is false, in that a BPO requires a huge isk investment, as such there is an opportunity cost associated with buying the T2 BPO. Namely that pile of isk cannot be used for anything else, and can only be recouped (hopefully) by selling the BPO. 2. Researching is not free, again due to opportunity costs and for T2 BPOs there will be direct out of pocket expenses for such research. Yes, in the long run it may pay off...or it may not. 3. You'd be dumb to copy them as already noted. 4. There is the 30 day time limit. This places a definite constraint on the BPO. For example, suppose you want to make and sell item x for which you have the BPO, you gueue up a 20 day job, and 18 days later the market goes to sh*t. Whoops. Invention on the other hand is much more flexible. Does that flexibility comes at a cost? Sure, but this idea that there are huge benefits to owning T2 BPOs is just nonsense, in some markets there might be an advantage....when profit margins are thin, I personally consider that a feature not a bug as it can keep a market that would otherwise disappear alive. And full disclosure: I own no T2 BPOs.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2010.07.30 04:49:00 - [67] Originally by: Mandos2k T2 BPOs Once acquired there are no further costs. You just killed your own argument. The cost in producing from invented T2 BPCs comes from the incremental cost of inventing the BPC. The cost in producing from T2 BPOs comes from the up front cost of purchasing the BPO. If you ignore the up front costs, you'd have to assume that paying cash up-front for a house is far, far cheaper than renting because you don't pay rent on a house you own. The situation is exactly the same for T2 BPO vs BPC: in one instance you pay the entire cost of X year's production up front, in the other you pay for each production run in the cost associated with inventing the BPC for that run. If you think that owning a T2 BPO isn't comparable to paying cash for a house up front, go ahead and buy the T2 BPO and prove me wrong. Is there something intrinsically uneven in having BPO competing with BPCs? Well, that depends. As the population of EVE Online increases and more people start using (and more importantly, losing) T2 items, the BPO owners will own less and less of the market. I'm sure there are some T2 BPO owners who have cornered the market due to there being enough production from BPOs that it's economically unfeasible to make a profit using invention of that specific item. At least two avenues present themselves at this realisation: first, find the items that you can invent for the highest profit, rather than insisting that you be able to make a profit inventing whatever you feel like inventing, or increase demand for the item you want to invent such that it becomes profitable. Both of these options require no cooperation from the current BPO owners, as opposed to the option of buying the BPO which requires the current owner to cooperate by selling it to you (or your cooperative). -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel]
Mara Tessidar	Posted - 2010.07.30 05:05:00 - [68] Well said, Mara!
Da Bandit	Posted - 2010.07.30 11:28:00 - [69] Just change them all back to T1 BPOs and then they can be invented to T2 BPCs like everyone else.
Narfas Deteis	Posted - 2010.07.30 11:33:00 - [70] Originally by: Da Bandit Just change them all back to T1 BPOs and then they can be invented to T2 BPCs like everyone else. ...and do same thing to all ships and modules. Who wants T2 stuff anyway? It's disadvantage to new players.

Hathrul	Posted - 2010.07.30 11:49:00 - [71] As i understand, with the insane costs that come with the purchase of T2 BPO's, it takes well over a year to get any profit out if it, if that much. I really dont see the problem. If you want a T2 BPO as a new player, you do the same as old players, you go out and make a lot of isk. ofcourse this is much easier for an older player, but then, using that as an argument would be the same as saying that carriers are to be removed. new players cant afford it the entire drive behind Eve is that there is always something more. The first thing i thought about when i bought my cruiser is how to get money and skills to buy a battlecruiser. now i fly T3 ships and only wonder about how to get a black-ops. This is the same with T2 production. You start with cheap ammo, move on to ships, T2 invention and eventually you move on to cheap T2 bpo's. and given a lot of time you get a titan, a T2 BPO, a Tournament ship. They are the holy grails in the game, something to reach for. By removing the overly expensive toys from the game, whats the drive to keep on playing? Lets face it. T2 bpo's are as easy to get as anything in Eve. its just all about money. but then, what isnt in eve
Penker	Posted - 2010.07.30 12:44:00 - [72] Originally by: Mara Rinn If you ignore the up front costs, you'd have to assume that paying cash up-front for a house is far, far cheaper than renting because you don't pay rent on a house you own. The situation is exactly the same for T2 BPO vs BPC: in one instance you pay the entire cost of X year's production up front, in the other you pay for each production run in the cost associated with inventing the BPC for that run. If you think that owning a T2 BPO isn't comparable to paying cash for a house up front, go ahead and buy the T2 BPO and prove me wrong. Your analogy stinks, because in many parts of the world it IS actually cheaper to buy a house than to rent it. Maybe only on long term, but you don't plan to buy a T2 BPO for two months and resell it again (exception: profit, but then you profit of reselling your house too)
Mandos2k Gallente Divinity Within	Posted - 2010.07.30 12:53:00 - [73] Originally by: Mara Rinn You just killed your own argument. The cost in producing from invented T2 BPCs comes from the incremental cost of inventing the BPC. The cost in producing from T2 BPOs comes from the up front cost of purchasing the BPO. If you ignore the up front costs, you'd have to assume that paying cash up-front for a house is far, far cheaper than renting because you don't pay rent on a house you own. [...] This is not quite right. It's indeed the case that up front costs of a purchase are comparable to incremental costs over time. But you are ignoring that this is only the case up to a certain threshold. To stick with your house analogy: If you buy one house for $100.000 and rent another one for $10.000 per year you will have paid the same for both over 10 years. When you exceed these 10 years though the house you rented will become more expensive over time while the first house will not. The same is true for T2 BPOs. That it might take years or even longer than EVE might exist doesn't change it. Also since you acquired property at the house you have the option to sell it again. You might get less than you paid initially for it but the cost gap between buying and renting just gets bigger by this. So in essence you are correct if we assume that the 10 years will not be exceeded and the once bought house cannot be sold again, but why should we? Originally by: Nahkep Narmelion 2. Researching is not free, again due to opportunity costs and for T2 BPOs there will be direct out of pocket expenses for such research. Yes, in the long run it may pay off...or it may not. In comparison to T2 BPCs gained through invention this doesn't matter as these BPCs are always worse than ME and PE 0. In other words you are still better off even if you didn't research your BPO at all. Of course this would no longer be the case if invented BPCs could have ME and PE levels of 0 or greater. Originally by: Nahkep Narmelion 3. You'd be dumb to copy them as already noted. That it's not worth doing doesn't change that it's something you can't do with a copy. The listings I did are objective descriptions of the properties of invention and T2 BPOs, not arguments for or against one of them. If you think I'm off the mark I would gladly read your comparison of their properties.
Ten Bulls Minmatar	Posted - 2010.07.30 13:07:00 - [74] Edited by: Ten Bulls on 30/07/2010 13:07:13 Originally by: Akita T I still have to see an argument for why they MUST go. Simple answer to that... Its a GAME, and games are more fun more people when they are balanced Giving a minority of players an inherent advantage of the majority of players and no way for them to one day be equals is bad, non-fun design.
Voogru Gallente Massive Damage	Posted - 2010.07.30 13:31:00 - [75] Originally by: Ten Bulls Edited by: Ten Bulls on 30/07/2010 13:07:13 Originally by: Akita T I still have to see an argument for why they MUST go. Simple answer to that... Its a GAME, and games are more fun more people when they are balanced Giving a minority of players an inherent advantage of the majority of players and no way for them to one day be equals is bad, non-fun design. By that logic, when you play Monopoly and someone gets a Monopoly in the game, once someone lands on it, they should have to turn over the properties to the bank. Nevermind that's the whole object of the game. Hate Farmers? Click Here
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.07.30 14:06:00 - [76] Originally by: Ten Bulls Originally by: Akita T I still have to see an argument for why they MUST go. Simple answer to that... Its a GAME, and games are more fun more people when they are balanced Giving a minority of players an inherent advantage of the majority of players and no way for them to one day be equals is bad, non-fun design. This is not the kind of game you are looking for then. This is NOT Counterstrike-in-Space, with everything pretty much almost perfectly even for everybody participating in a round. We LOATHE even playing fields, we hate rounds, we hate resets and other so-called "fair play" thingies. This IS a hypercapitalistic, cutthroat, cheating, scamming, backstabbing and otherwise below-the-belt-hitting kind of game. The kind of argument you're trying to use has no place here. ESPECIALLY since most of the people that currently HAVE that advantage you are talking about actually EARNED it through their own work. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.07.30 14:34:00 - [77] To emphasize akitas remarks... 1. 200 guys blobbing 1 2. 90 million sp officer fitted bhaalgorn attacking a tier 1 hauler noob thats 3 days old. 3. Alliance of 4000 attacking an alliance of 700 and taking their space. 4. Owners of supercapital/capital production corps making hundreds of billions a year. Yea but those arent tech 2 bpos right? Look at their costs. 5. Market traders worth hundreds of billions manipulating entire regions and/or multiple regions to harvest even more isk. 6. Only a few guys in game owning a select few ships in existance. 7. Scammers worth multi billions social engineering a 2 month old and taking every last isk the poor lad has. 8. Shall i go on? 9. Tech 2 bpo holders that aquired their blueprints through hard work and are worth multibillions getting an edge on production by investing capital instead of time like inventors must do. 10. Massive alliances controlling the best space and profiting off their moons while others have to settle for scraps. 11. 15 man peaceful industrial corps getting war dec'd in empire space so they can be harvested for fun/isk. 12. Guys rolling around with a large number of accounts making easier isk off of the fact they have multiple accounts and can pay more in real life for accounts than others. 13. Guys selling GTC's for ingame currency inorder to get an edge through wealth. 14. And my personal fav... Guys in jita declaring they are giving away an expensive ship at xxxz hours at planet I and 200 noobs in pods show up then get smartbombed. All of these actions are totally legal. Most would probably scream they arent fair. That is eve. That is why i like it. If you dont. Leave. Give your stuff to someone else. I'm rich. I dont need your ****. Mad? Good.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2010.07.30 14:51:00 - [78] Originally by: Mandos2k So in essence you are correct if we assume that the 10 years will not be exceeded and the once bought house cannot be sold again, but why should we? For the duration of ownership of the production capital, the owner is missing the ISK used to acquire the production capital. Thus for the duration of ownership of a T2 BPO, that player will have a billion-odd ISK tied up in that BPO which can't be used to trade on the market or fund wars, put up towers for other income producing activities. Let's say you have 150B ISK. Would you buy a Hulk BPO, or invest in (as a hypothetical example) the invention and production chain for Javelin Torpedoes? Imagine that the Hulk BPO allows you to produce 1 Hulk each day, for 30M profit each day. That's somewhere in the order of 8%pa return on investment. Imagine that for about 1B ISK you could set up a POS, and invent 1 single-run Hulk BPC a day at a cost of 27M each, selling each for 30M ISK. That's 3M profit each day, representing somewhere around 100%pa return on investment. Since you're inventing, there's nothing stopping you scaling this industry up a dozen times to match the absolute returns per day of the Hulk BPO, for one tenth the capital outlay of the BPO. -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel]
Scott Ryder Amarr art of eve Gunmen of the Apocalypse	Posted - 2010.07.30 16:05:00 - [79] Originally by: Mandos2k T2 BPOs give an unfair advantage and all these cry babies know it. Otherwise they wouldn't be whining and whining and whining so much each time someone points this flaw out. Nevertheless they should not be removed. Some of their arguments do hold some merit and shock make sense. Instead the mechanic how T2 BPOs work should be changed. Let's have a look at T2 BPOs and invention: Invention Involves recurring costs to acquire BPCs. BPC gained through invention are inefficient due to bad ME and PE levels. Their ME and PE cannot be researched. A BPC cannot be copied. BPCs gained through invention have limited runs. T2 BPOs Once acquired there are no further costs. T2 BPOs are efficient as they have at least ME and PE levels of 0. Their ME and PE can be researched. T2 BPOs can be copied. T2 BPOs have unlimited runs. To offset this persistent gap the handling of T2 BPOs has to be changed: When a T2 BPO is being used it receives damage and gets worn out over time. To prevent the loss of a T2 BPO it can be "invented" the same way a BPC would be for that particular item: If the invention job fails the BPO loses a percentage of its ME and PE level which both can also become negative. If the invention job succeeds the endured damage gets reseted, e.g. the T2 BPO is "repaired". The ME and PE levels can still be researched as of now. To copy a T2 BPO it has to be "invented" under the same principles as mentioned above. Voila! T2 BPOs still hold an advantage, no one lost his precious gem, investments made into the BPO still hold value and the gap between invention and T2 BPOs has been lessened by introducing running costs similar to those of inventors. You do know that if you buy ie a hulk bpo, you can profit what? 12b a year? If you buy 30 covetor bpos you can profit 40 b a year.. How is that even unfair? If you spend the same amount of isk on t1 bpos that some spend on t2 bpos you will see its more profitable.
Cashews Bastelrunde EV	Posted - 2010.07.30 16:34:00 - [80] Originally by: Mandos2k Let's have a look at T2 BPOs and invention: A T2 BPO has a capped profit per timeframe. Invention has not (unless you prefer not to skill Mass Production). That pretty much voids any argument you have, unless you are not doing it for profit.

Ilkahn	Posted - 2010.07.30 16:57:00 - [81] As a budding young industrialist who is only a few months into the game... Well, we pay our dues, the early T2 folks had to pay theirs. It's part of the fun of the game to explore "invention" mechanics etc. It's a virtual world... my isk didn't pay my mortgage last month although i tried... but it will buy me copies of T2 BPs as well as Originals if i pony up on it. Now, get out there and drive it like you stole it.
Crestingmoon Caldari Amarr Empire Research Copr	Posted - 2010.07.30 17:03:00 - [82] Edited by: Crestingmoon on 30/07/2010 17:03:53 Invention works fine for me. I am able to produce anything I need and I can respond to the market as the demand for goods changes. If I had a tech 2 bpo, I would be beholden to one item and could not respond to the market as I can right now with invention. Whats wrong with the Tech 2 BPO's? We have a lot of people that are jealous and lazy and dont want to do invention to make what they want. Stop whinning and start inventing!!!
Mandos2k Gallente Divinity Within	Posted - 2010.07.30 17:20:00 - [83] Originally by: Cashews Originally by: Mandos2k stuff A T2 BPO has a capped profit per timeframe. Invention has not (unless you prefer not to skill Mass Production). That pretty much voids any argument you have, unless you are not doing it for profit. And because of some miracle all T2 BPO owners can't use invention? Also which argument of mine is void now? I can't seem to follow you.
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.07.30 17:32:00 - [84] Originally by: Mandos2k Originally by: Cashews Originally by: Mandos2k stuff A T2 BPO has a capped profit per timeframe. Invention has not (unless you prefer not to skill Mass Production). That pretty much voids any argument you have, unless you are not doing it for profit. And because of some miracle all T2 BPO owners can't use invention? Also which argument of mine is void now? I can't seem to follow you. Of course we can use invention. Why the bleepin bleep should i if i go to the sell order forums, buy a T2 bpo, produce off it and am happy with my market set profits controlled by inventors? Like most guys i dont get alot of ingame time anymore. I chose to invest isk to make isk via bpos. Voila!
Voogru Gallente Massive Damage	Posted - 2010.07.30 17:46:00 - [85] Originally by: Mandos2k And because of some miracle all inventors can't buy T2 BPO's? Also which argument of mine is void now? I can't seem to follow you. Fixed that for you. Hate Farmers? Click Here
Mandos2k Gallente Divinity Within	Posted - 2010.07.30 17:57:00 - [86] Originally by: Voogru Fixed that for you. Thank you Voogru. Buying a T2 BPO doesn't change its inherent advantages. Just the person benefiting from it.
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.07.30 18:06:00 - [87] Edited by: Jovialmadness on 30/07/2010 18:07:26 Quote: Thank you Voogru. Inventing multiple tech 2 bpc's doesn't change its inherent advantages over a tech 2 bpo. Just the person benefiting from it. Fixed that for you
Susung Alt Anti-defamation League	Posted - 2010.07.30 23:54:00 - [88] dunno if this has been said yet I didn't read all the crap posted. The differences between t2 bpo's and inventing is this. You can only make so many items from a t2 bpo and they are a beetch to copy. It is nice to be able to tailor you production chain to produce a few things but if you want to get full profit out of them you have to run product out to multiple hubs to sell. Additonally people pay stupid amounts of isk for them the equivalent of 3 to 4 years production sometimes. ( I know who's fault is that right) Well, it not completely foolish for the above reasons. Inventors can tailor their production to holes in their local market. they have increased logistics invoved in raw materials but they dont have to make 50 jumps to 3 or 4 hubs to sell their stuff. My main's corp spent years of research from multiple members and got a single t2 missle bpo that was practically useless. And until invention (I paid 700 mil for my first hulk) the bpo holders were sticking it to everybody. That pizzed some people off when they invented their first bpo's and figured out how badly they were gettin soaked. But I can't honestly say if I had that hulk bpo at the time I wouldn't have done the same thing. All said I would like to see better efficiency from invention maybe ME/PE -2 instead of -4 standard or a more datafiles so their price gets better. But overall invention was a positive move that made the BPO holders honest up a bit. I don't see any way they could be removed. If you want one save your isk and buy one.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2010.07.31 07:57:00 - [89] Originally by: Mandos2k Let's have a look at T2 BPOs and invention: Invention Involves recurring costs to acquire BPCs. BPC gained through invention are inefficient due to bad ME and PE levels. This isn't quite true, many invented BPCs have the same (or close enough to the same) build cost as those from BPOs due to how wastage is/isn't applied. Their ME and PE cannot be researched. A BPC cannot be copied. BPCs gained through invention have limited runs. This really fits in with recurring costs as the same point, equally BPOs have a limited number of items you can build over time. T2 BPOs Once acquired there are no further costs. Actually depreciation is a cost, so you're not right there. Also the important part is the 'once acquired part' if the cost to acquire them wasn't more than enough to compensate for all of their advantages, and then some, no one would be complaining about not having one, they'd just buy one. T2 BPOs are efficient as they have at least ME and PE levels of 0. Anyone seriously building off one does so in a rapid facility, which means a waste level at least equal to that or even greater than that achievable through invention. Their ME and PE can be researched. But if look at the time taken to do so, and benefit gained, you'll find this is only a very marginal advantage, and once off. T2 BPOs can be copied. This is actually a disadvantage, since every one run copy being made is TWO less items able to be built. Thus the only reason to ever copy a T2 BPO is because it is so crap that it is not worth building from. T2 BPOs have unlimited runs. Again, paid for in the purchase price. To offset this persistent gap the handling of T2 BPOs has to be changed: When a T2 BPO is being used it receives damage and gets worn out over time. Why, the balance is already provided in the cost to acquire. To prevent the loss of a T2 BPO it can be "invented" the same way a BPC would be for that particular item: This is absolutely the worst idea ever suggested. Increasing the number of T2 BPOs available is worse for the game, their owners, and inventors than even removing them would be. If the invention job fails the BPO loses a percentage of its ME and PE level which both can also become negative. If the invention job succeeds the endured damage gets reseted, e.g. the T2 BPO is "repaired". The ME and PE levels can still be researched as of now. To copy a T2 BPO it has to be "invented" under the same principles as mentioned above. Voila! T2 BPOs still hold an advantage, no one lost his precious gem, investments made into the BPO still hold value and the gap between invention and T2 BPOs has been lessened by introducing running costs similar to those of inventors.
Mandos2k Gallente Divinity Within	Posted - 2010.07.31 12:17:00 - [90] @Lord Fitz: Since you posted in between of my listings I'll number my replies from top to bottom in relation to yours, ok? It's easier to read then. 1. Could you elaborate this a bit for me? Afaik the production mechanic for copies and originals are the same. 2. Yes, indeed! The first and last bulletins of either listing are actually just one. Since I intended to write an unbiased objective description of their properties I figured it might have been a good way to emphasize their differences. As the listings shall describe their properties as a whole it's no difference at the end though, just a different way of presenting it. Might have really been better as just one but it's not changing anything. Well, whatever. 3. I already wrote something concerning this above in response to Mara. Furthermore the costs of acquisition through buying are only relevant to second hand owners. The initial owner got it basically for free. For further thoughts I refer you to my reply to Mara if you don't mind. 4. Actually that's not really changing anything. For one thing this also applies to copies, for another no one has to use these facilities so it's a voluntarily reduction in efficiency. 5. Nevertheless it is an advantage. Remember I did the listing as an objective description, not as arguments for or against anything. I wrote them so you guys know what thoughts my proposal is based on. 6. See above. 7. See further above. 8. While this is somewhat true it for one thing only applies to second hand owners (see above) and for another gets relativized as the high costs via player to player trade only exists because of the notable advantages of T2 BPOs. Wouldn't they have so many benefits compared to invention, no one would pay billions for them. 9. You didn't understood this passage right. I do not suggest adding new originals, I suggest that the same game mechanic used for invention is used to prevent the existing original from vanishing. The effects of this mechanic are described at the indented bulletins.

asdfasdfadfasdf	Posted - 2010.07.31 13:11:00 - [91] I think the best way to do it, would be to take the market price of the BPO's and give the players that own them, the isk they are worth... The BPO's has got to go, you guys honestly expect new guys to keep playing eve when they find out about this ? If wow devs heard of this they would laugh their ass off at CCP incompetence, how they managed to let this happen i dont know it is beyond incompetent...
Scott Ryder Amarr art of eve Gunmen of the Apocalypse	Posted - 2010.07.31 16:21:00 - [92] Originally by: asdfasdfadfasdf I think the best way to do it, would be to take the market price of the BPO's and give the players that own them, the isk they are worth... The BPO's has got to go, you guys honestly expect new guys to keep playing eve when they find out about this ? If wow devs heard of this they would laugh their ass off at CCP incompetence, how they managed to let this happen i dont know it is beyond incompetent... What is this new trolling where blizzard and t2 bpos are always mentioned? Do you guys have some kinda club? But seriusly, everyone has the equal opertunity today to buy a t2 bpo. Stop whining.
ZOppp	Posted - 2010.07.31 17:59:00 - [93] CCP aren't gunna remove them cause you say it sways the game in favour of the older players. Why not just remove every item and every ship and skill points; we can just all fly Reapers. But then, you'd complain the older players have had more time playing and therefore naturally have an advantage. Older players are meant to have an advantage. MMOs need long-term steady subscribers to fund themselves, and that's what older players tend to be. They have an advantage because they've poured more money and time into the game and its economy than you. tl;dr - failing to understand the genre of game you play doesn't mean T2 BPOs should be removed.
Rashmika Clavain Gallente	Posted - 2010.08.01 18:40:00 - [94] /me is still loling at LHA and his rediculous crusade
Voogru Gallente Massive Damage	Posted - 2010.08.01 20:02:00 - [95] Originally by: ZOppp They have an advantage because they've poured more money and time into the game and its economy than you. tl;dr - failing to understand the genre of game you play doesn't mean T2 BPOs should be removed. More importantly, they had to have something to strive for and try to obtain through hard work. T2 BPO's are something that can take a long time to earn, remove them and what else do people have to try and get? Hate Farmers? Click Here
Morek Doohour Melt's in your Mouth Industries	Posted - 2010.08.01 21:03:00 - [96] I personally have been playing for many years now . I have the same problem OP does , no T2 BPO's . Yet I was playing when the "lottery" system was still in place . If i want one , I am at the same point as any other player out there .. save up and buy one ! Yes get ready to spend billions on it . Last time i looked into it the payof time for a T2 bpo was somewhere around 2 years of straight manufacturing to cover the cost of it . soory i do not want to have to worry about doing something almost everyday just to pay for an invstment of that caliber My advice to OP would be to accept the fact that if you want one work for it or just drop it . a game mechanic that has been around since the start of this game is not needed to lvl the playing field ... if anything else invention has leveled it fine as the prices of T2 items made by bpo's had to drop from the higher value preinvention prices where it was a i can charge this much cause i am the only one making it to sell type of deal . leave the T2 bpo's alone and let invention pull up the slack and keep the prices of T2 items down!!
Toribo	Posted - 2010.08.02 01:26:00 - [97] Originally by: Pantload Better yet, team up with the anti-learning skills crowd. They are foaming at the mouth for nerf-batting existing game mechanics and welfare programs for newbs. Idiot.
TheTradeMonkey	Posted - 2010.08.02 13:45:00 - [98] The way to remove T2 BPO's is easy. CCP create an unknown alt account\multiple alt accounts Alts place "WTB threads" untill they own all the T2BPOs Alts then publicly destroy the bpos outside jita. BPO's removed, preveous owners paid off, market ****ed. job done
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.08.02 14:02:00 - [99] Originally by: TheTradeMonkey The way to remove T2 BPO's is easy. CCP create an unknown alt account\multiple alt accounts Alts place "WTB threads" untill they own all the T2BPOs Alts then publicly destroy the bpos outside jita. BPO's removed, preveous owners paid off, market **ed. job done Dont be surprised if this actually is happening. This is the only way to effectively remove them from the game whilst not **ing anyone off. What makes it sweeter is the issue of knowledge. Know one trully knows how many bpo's are actually left ingame of each class. Lastly it trully could never be tied back to ccp. Everyone might just suspect it though five years from now when bpo's show up on the sell order forum at a rate of 1 a month.
Susung Alt Anti-defamation League	Posted - 2010.08.02 20:24:00 - [100] Originally by: Morek Doohour I personally have been playing for many years now . I have the same problem OP does , no T2 BPO's . Yet I was playing when the "lottery" system was still in place . If i want one , I am at the same point as any other player out there .. save up and buy one ! Yes get ready to spend billions on it . Last time i looked into it the payof time for a T2 bpo was somewhere around 2 years of straight manufacturing to cover the cost of it . soory i do not want to have to worry about doing something almost everyday just to pay for an invstment of that caliber My advice to OP would be to accept the fact that if you want one work for it or just drop it . a game mechanic that has been around since the start of this game is not needed to lvl the playing field ... if anything else invention has leveled it fine as the prices of T2 items made by bpo's had to drop from the higher value preinvention prices where it was a i can charge this much cause i am the only one making it to sell type of deal . leave the T2 bpo's alone and let invention pull up the slack and keep the prices of T2 items down!! They aren't listening they are so sure that the grass is greener. They are blinded to the fact that practcally everything on the market is invented. The guys who are screwing your profits aren't the T2 BPO holders its the Morons who thing mins are free.

Karugan BavTech Industries	Posted - 2010.08.03 10:23:00 - [101] Tech 2 Bppo's are a part of eve so get used to it and complain about something else, oh and no i dont have any
Da Bandit	Posted - 2010.08.03 12:36:00 - [102] Originally by: Narfas Deteis Originally by: Da Bandit Just change them all back to T1 BPOs and then they can be invented to T2 BPCs like everyone else. ...and do same thing to all ships and modules. Who wants T2 stuff anyway? It's disadvantage to new players. No, leave T2 stuff as it is. Just change all T2 BPOs to T1. That way they are removed from the game. Players owning them arent really disadvantaged, they get to keep the T1 BPO, however they just then need to use invention going forward like everyone else.
Brian Ballsack	Posted - 2010.08.03 15:09:00 - [103] To the OP: Mathematics m8, get a grip of it before you start to discuss a subject you clearly know very little about.
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.08.03 15:27:00 - [104] Originally by: Da Bandit Originally by: Narfas Deteis Originally by: Da Bandit Just change them all back to T1 BPOs and then they can be invented to T2 BPCs like everyone else. ...and do same thing to all ships and modules. Who wants T2 stuff anyway? It's disadvantage to new players. No, leave T2 stuff as it is. Just change all T2 BPOs to T1. That way they are removed from the game. Players owning them arent really disadvantaged, they get to keep the T1 BPO, however they just then need to use invention going forward like everyone else. WTF? Are you serious? Hey ive got a nice piece of real estate ill sell you 500 miles east of florida. Real cheap. Interested?
Lirinas	Posted - 2010.08.03 16:10:00 - [105] Since this post has nothing to do with existing game mechanics, this should be moved to the "Ideas" forum. And for my 2 cents on the topic: People have been whining about T2 BPO's since they came out. I'm of the opinion that they should remain. They exist in smaller and smaller numbers, as BPO's are destroyed, or people quit the game and the blueprint lays fallow in an unused hanger. If they do decide to eliminate BPO's, there would need to be 2 or 3 changes to other existing mechanisms before I'd be happy. Make invention a little more useful and less tedious. While invention isn't the horrendous clickfest that PI is, it's needed some TLC for a while. Give us options to increase the runs on the invented BPC, give us the ability to re-research the resultant BPC, and give us the means of increasing our chance of success. It irritates me to no end how I apparently learn nothing from repeated invention attempts at a single job. Generally speaking, if somebody does something repeatedly, they'd learn from their mistakes and get better at it? Change #2: Make Moon-mining open to all players, and not just the mega-alliances? How? I've not a clue, but by the OP's logic, this would need to be addressed to "even the playing field" Following the OP's logic, while we're at it, we should delete all legacy items people have that are no-longer dropped. Guardian Vexors? Gone. Elite Mining Drones? Gone. Mines and their BPO's? Gone. Hell, we should get rid of the Zephyr ship that was given to everybody back a little while ago. They're only available from other players just like T2 BPO's, so they should be removed too. o.k... done ranting.
Spruillo Gallente Spruillo Corp	Posted - 2010.08.03 17:41:00 - [106] Originally by: Dav Varan Group togethor with all your T2 BPO hater buddies. Make donations to a fund. When you have enough isk in the fund , buy some t2 BPO's then trash them. If so many people hate T2 BPO's you should have no problem achiving this goal. if they had t2 bpo's they wouldnt be t2 bpo haters
Vee Raa Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2010.08.03 18:14:00 - [107] The horse is dead, Jim.
Da Bandit	Posted - 2010.08.08 11:12:00 - [108] Originally by: Jovialmadness Originally by: Da Bandit Originally by: Narfas Deteis Originally by: Da Bandit Just change them all back to T1 BPOs and then they can be invented to T2 BPCs like everyone else. ...and do same thing to all ships and modules. Who wants T2 stuff anyway? It's disadvantage to new players. No, leave T2 stuff as it is. Just change all T2 BPOs to T1. That way they are removed from the game. Players owning them arent really disadvantaged, they get to keep the T1 BPO, however they just then need to use invention going forward like everyone else. WTF? Are you serious? Hey ive got a nice piece of real estate ill sell you 500 miles east of florida. Real cheap. Interested? Whats the big deal, the T2 BPOs were all given out free of charge originally anyways?
alittlebirdy	Posted - 2010.08.09 04:00:00 - [109] Free to get, free to take away... of course massive emorage would come so, just pay em the face value... one time lump sum of isk. TBH ccp can fix the cost of smaller ships making them take like nothing to invent, and so what if prices go up? O well... It be nice for people to get into ship invention at the frig level... Invention / biulding is in no way as bad as PI is... (I did PI and I do t2 biulding/inventing) ya I haz hs tower, corp affair to biuld t2... and it cost me all of maybe 5bill... yep now go get a hulk bpo at 100bill... not to mention the prices of t2 bpos ATM, you need to resell to make any money, so it aint even spend 100bill and make it back in a year or 2, it is spend 100bill... make a little.... and resell... IDC if I had bpo's I'd use em to buy more to take em out of the game. No reason those t2 bpo's cant start getting old and fall apart.
KaetheYsera	Posted - 2010.08.09 08:44:00 - [110] 1) Add T2 BPOs back 2) Remove all T2 BPOs and replace them with a stack of 10 T1 BPOs with the same ME 3) Buff invention until it's competitive with T2 BPOs I don't really care which one, but one should be done. If there's any issue that makes me want to quit, it's this one (knowing that T2 production is not a competitive area because players who were here before me have an item I can't obtain anymore).

Narfas Deteis	Posted - 2010.08.09 12:28:00 - [111] Originally by: KaetheYsera [cut] I don't really care which one, but one should be done. If there's any issue that makes me want to quit, it's this one (knowing that T2 production is not a competitive area because players who were here before me have an item I can't obtain anymore). Go to Sell forum. NOW! You can also check contracts.
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.08.09 12:37:00 - [112] Originally by: KaetheYsera 1) Add T2 BPOs back 2) Remove all T2 BPOs and replace them with a stack of 10 T1 BPOs with the same ME 3) Buff invention until it's competitive with T2 BPOs I don't really care which one, but one should be done. If there's any issue that makes me want to quit, it's this one (knowing that T2 production is not a competitive area because players who were here before me have an item I can't obtain anymore). No. No. No. Last statement you made. Not true. Go away.
Selling Slave	Posted - 2010.08.14 02:05:00 - [113] The T2 BPO lottery left a lot of people high an dry, only a select few won. Those that did win a BPO reaped the rewards, those that didn't were stuck, either spend billions on buying one from someone who has one, or don't. The people who have spent billions on obtaining these BPOs, they have spent either a great deal of time an effort making the isk, or a lot of real money buying GTCs to get the isk. What CCP did was create a problem that has festered for far too long, an gotten out of check. CCP should of never introduced the T2 BPO, they should of forced everyone to do inventing, this would of left everything fair for all, an none of the whinning an trolling would of ever happened. Now, real life says the world isn't fair, an if you don't like it not being fair, too bad. Whats the ultimate answer to this problem, well, thats up to CCP to decide, they are the ones who created this mess, it's time they owned up to it, an cleaned it up.
slipperywhenhappy	Posted - 2010.08.15 17:33:00 - [114] LOL wow I feel smarting from reading this thread. rl is not fair deal with it Tarawa even though you are ether not able to or not willing to work to buy t2 bpo's off the mark it don't have a fit trying to get them removed. The case of the matter is they are out there and can still be gotten though you have to work for them how do you think they trade hands in the 1st place? other then the odd ship that is blown up and drops one. They are made by people smart enough to figure out how to make money in this game. Yes the lotto was not the best idea but it was out there and happened. If you want to cry about not playing in the lotto nor having the skills not be in the lotto at the time go back to wow... or quit eave will offer you 2 isk for your toon so i can just bio mass it and make eve smarter as a hole.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.08.15 18:00:00 - [115] "Perhaps I've been thinking of the T2 BPO thing the wrong way" by LHA Tarawa. Posted - 2010.08.11 16:12:00. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Greyson Stone Amarr Phoenix Industries Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.21 17:18:00 - [116] Let the people who have the T2 bpos keep them, end of drama. What seriously needs to be done is tweek inventing so it isn't so crappy. The base -ME is a joke, an I agree with the person who posted up a few posts, that inventors should get better with time. Seriously, you do something enough times it becomes easier an easier. As for a history lesson about the lottery, it was a joke. Some people got nothing, others walked away with 2 or more T2 bpos, an some who did get T2 bpos got ones that weren't even worth wiping your behind with. Personally, I make lots of isk off inventing, an I don't see investing my isk on a T2 bpo to be an investment I would make. Paying 100 billion for a bpo, how many years is it going to take to make back the isk it took to buy it? Way too long on a return, an far too long before you EVER start to see a profit. Lets face one important fact, all MMOs eventually cave to people whinning about something long enough. How much longer before CCP does something about T2 bpos? Maybe never, or maybe next month, who knows? I personally am not risking my isk on a maybe, there are far more worthy investments to be had. So, if you want change, keep whinning, eventually your gonna get something. Maybe CCP will get sick of the crying an ban topics that have anything to do with T2 bpos in them. God loves the pvpers, for we keep virtual heaven packed with fresh souls. Don't whine if your ship gets blown up, an you get podded, just suck it up an start over again.
Ratuu Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2010.08.21 21:16:00 - [117] Edited by: Ratuu on 21/08/2010 21:19:06 Originally by: LHA Tarawa If the foot were on the other shoe, you would not feel the same. Don't think for one moment that everyone who doesn't have a BPO feels the same way as you. Been playing for nearly 7 years now, never had T2 BPO but don't resent the folks who do have them. Invention works fine, props in the luck department to those that have the BPOs. I'm happy with the way invention is at the moment, could be better but..meh, so could a lot of things - you seem to be one of few who aren't happy judging by the momentum of this thread. You're very good at assuming the moral highground in the name of others, righteous indignation can only take you so far however; after that, you've got to make arguments that make sense in the face of counter-arguments. Yours don't, you just repeat yourself and that's the MO of someone who is either trolling or has their fingers burnt in someone elses pie and is just angry about something. Doesn't make you right though.
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.08.21 22:35:00 - [118] All owners of T2 BPOs actually should see their precious T2 BPOs disappear. That is my opinion. Reasons: - EVE is just a game, get over it, loss is meaningful, T2 BPO owner tears are best tears, etc. - the T2 BPO owners did make a lot of ISKs with them, so they have nothing to complain about - do not bother the devs with request for new mechanics to sort out old problems, just get rid of the problem as easily as possible and move on --
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.08.21 22:50:00 - [119] Edited by: Akita T on 21/08/2010 22:55:35 Originally by: Whitehound All owners of T2 BPOs actually should see their precious T2 BPOs disappear. That is my opinion. Your account should burst into flames. That is my opinion. We seldom ever get what we want though, now do we ? No, we don't... sigh Originally by: Whitehound the T2 BPO owners did make a lot of ISKs with them, so they have nothing to complain about Except the vast majority of T2 BPO types have a lousier profit-making opportunity compared to most T1 BPOs. Also, what about people that RECENTLY became T2 BPO owners ? Originally by: Whitehound do not bother the devs with request for new mechanics to sort out old problems, just get rid of the problem as easily as possible and move on Removing T2 BPOs while not radically altering invention means a lot of seldom-used items go away for good. And if you're going to bother the devs to tweak invention to "fix" that too, that'll turn all T2 BPOs into low-actual-value (yet still overpriced) pieces of memorabilia anyway, so why bother removing them anymore ? So... right back at you. There is no actual problem with T2 BPOs, don't bother the devs about it. Originally by: Whitehound EVE is just a game, get over it, loss is meaningful, T2 BPO owner tears are best tears, etc. I have to agree with you, the T2 tears are delicious. However it's not those of the T2 BPO owners, but those of people who hold views similar to yours. Keeping the T2 BPOs in place ensures a continuous stream of grade-A mathematically-challenged jerk tears, so regardless of anything else, that's one of the best reasons to KEEP them. Alternatively, T2 BPOs are here to stay, EVE is just a game, get over it. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.08.21 23:00:00 - [120] Originally by: Akita T Except the vast majority of T2 BPO types have a lousier profit-making opportunity compared to most T1 BPOs. That is not a problem. Quote: Also, what about people that RECENTLY became T2 BPO owners ? What about them? They are hardly any different from those who had T2 BPOs for a long time, nor are they much different from those players who never had one. Quote: Removing T2 BPOs while not radically altering invention means a lot of seldom-used items go away for good. And if you're going to bother the devs to tweak invention to "fix" that too, that'll turn all T2 BPOs into low-actual-value (yet still overpriced) pieces of memorabilia anyway, so why bother removing them anymore ? So... right back at you. There is no actual problem with T2 BPOs, don't bother the devs about it. No, not right back at me, Akita. Stop being a troll. Players have suggested complex changes to compensate for the remove of T2 BPOs. I think there is no need for complex changes. Just get rid of them. There is a "have and not-have" situation and that is always a problem. --

Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.08.21 23:11:00 - [121] Originally by: Whitehound There is a "have and not-have" situation and that is always a problem. In your mind only (and that of people that think like you). In reality, in this game, absolutely not at all. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.08.21 23:24:00 - [122] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Whitehound There is a "have and not-have" situation and that is always a problem. In your mind only (and that of people that think like you). In reality, in this game, absolutely not at all. What are you refering to you? We are not talking about the same thing here. --
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.08.21 23:56:00 - [123] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Whitehound There is a "have and not-have" situation and that is always a problem. In your mind only (and that of people that think like you). In reality, in this game, absolutely not at all. What are you refering to you? We are not talking about the same thing here. Apparently, I am talking about how T2 BPOs are not a real problem for actual gameplay or economic reasons based on evidence, calculations and logic... and you are talking about how some random whiny little brat's entitlement issues are somehow allegedly a problem for the game (while the vast majority of people playing EVE have no problem with it). Oh, and I was also talking about how manufacturing delicious tears of people who perceive some slight where there really was none to begin with is part of EVE's gameplay. But not in the post you quoted. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.08.22 00:06:00 - [124] Originally by: Akita T Apparently, I am talking about how T2 BPOs are not a real problem for actual gameplay ... Well, Akita, you are not talking. You are showing that you do not care about players who feel an unfairness in how T2 BPOs are distributed and lose yourself in logic, calculation and analysis for no reason. --
umah	Posted - 2010.08.22 00:27:00 - [125] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Akita T Apparently, I am talking about how T2 BPOs are not a real problem for actual gameplay ... Well, Akita, you are not talking. You are showing that you do not care about players who feel an unfairness in how T2 BPOs are distributed and lose yourself in logic, calculation and analysis for no reason. Good lord Whitehound, find another game, please.... how about super mario or something...
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.08.22 00:36:00 - [126] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Akita T Apparently, I am talking about how T2 BPOs are not a real problem for actual gameplay ... Well, Akita, you are not talking. You are showing that you do not care about players who feel an unfairness in how T2 BPOs are distributed and lose yourself in logic, calculation and analysis for no reason. Oh, I'm sorry, how rude of me... you probably totally missed the now 8-page thread explaining it to people that think like you. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2010.08.22 03:49:00 - [127] Edited by: SurrenderMonkey on 22/08/2010 03:49:29 Originally by: Whitehound You are showing that you do not care about players who feel an unfairness in how T2 BPOs are distributed and lose yourself in logic, calculation and analysis for no reason. You say this like it's somehow a bad thing. Listen - it's unfortunate that you feel like you've somehow been shortchanged, but the math simply doesn't support your position. Why should anyone care that you "feel" it's unfair when logic, calculations, and analysis can objectively show that the injustice is merely perceived, and that perception is not supported by reality? If you want a BPO, save up and buy one. That's the only way they are distributed any more. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.08.22 07:02:00 - [128] Originally by: Akita T Explain to me why should I care about the feelings of such whiny little prats that feel "hurt" by the mere existence of T2 BPOs anyway ? It makes you look less like a whiny little prat who only wishes to keep its T2 BPOs. However, you have given reasons why they can be removed, being no problem for the economy, and so the problem can be solved. So I still say to remove T2 BPOs. No one is going to miss them according to Akita. --
Harris	Posted - 2010.08.22 11:43:00 - [129] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Akita T Apparently, I am talking about how T2 BPOs are not a real problem for actual gameplay ... Well, Akita, you are not talking. You are showing that you do not care about players who feel an unfairness in how T2 BPOs are distributed and lose yourself in logic, calculation and analysis for no reason. What about the players who don't feel that there is an unfairness in the current state of play? I don't have a T2 BPO, never came close to one and I was here when the lottery was up and running. I don't feel a grievance, it's just a game. I think its fair as that was the way the game was at the time. Now we have invention and everyone gets a chance at building T2 stuff. That was a huge change in the state of play and I'm happy with how it's worked out. Though I will admit it's hard to get into at first; once you're up and running, it's a routine that's easy to keep going. All you have are opinions, not facts. My opinions are worth as much as yours.
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.08.22 11:59:00 - [130] Originally by: Harris What about the players who don't feel that there is an unfairness in the current state of play? What about them?! Do you lose anything when the T2 BPOs are being removed? --

Harris	Posted - 2010.08.22 12:09:00 - [131] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Harris What about the players who don't feel that there is an unfairness in the current state of play? What about them?! Do you lose anything when the T2 BPOs are being removed? Nope, and I don't gain anything either. Now that fact coupled with the fact that I don't perceive the current state of play as unfair, means that I don't see a need for change. The time for change was when invention was first bought in, with perhaps a 1000 run (or whatever would be appropriate) cap being put on the BPOs. That time is long gone. Let it lie.
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.08.22 12:42:00 - [132] Originally by: Harris Nope, and I don't gain anything either. Which makes it fair for all. --
Harris	Posted - 2010.08.22 12:50:00 - [133] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Harris Nope, and I don't gain anything either. Which makes it fair for all. It's already fair for all. Those that have the BPOs now probably invested billions in them. That's the pay off. I don't think it would be fair on those with the BPOs to lose their investment. Your retort will be 'boo-hoo cry me a river for them' or something, or perhaps you'll go on about about methods of change to mitigate their loss, but like I said, in my opinion the time for change has passed. That's all it is, my opinion; you have yours based on your perception of the current state of play and I disagree. Why should any change be effected because of yours?
Zelda Wei	Posted - 2010.08.22 13:42:00 - [134] Arguments to take away T2 BPO make no sense because you are stupid, because you are stupid you are poor, because you are poor you are green jealous. Don't need T2 BPO to make lot of ISK. 5 months I make 6 Billions at trade in Jita. I afford some T2 BPO but do not buy because I make more isk trading in Jita. Don't be green jealous, don't be stupid, don't be poor. Work not beg for communism.
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.08.22 13:46:00 - [135] Originally by: Harris It's already fair for all. No, it is not, or else would we not have these threads. --
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.08.22 13:58:00 - [136] Originally by: Zelda Wei ... Don't need T2 BPO ... That is right! Quote: Work not beg for communism. T2 BPOs mean less work, removing them means more work, therefore less communism. Win for all. \o/ --
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.08.22 14:58:00 - [137] Edited by: Akita T on 22/08/2010 14:58:57 Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Harris What about the players who don't feel that there is an unfairness in the current state of play? What about them?! Do you lose anything when the T2 BPOs are being removed? Yes, EVERYBODY loses something if all T2 BPOs are removed without any compensation whatsoever, whether they had a T2 BPO or not. People that have T2 BPOs under their control lose an asset for which they paid a truckload of ISK, or an item they could have sold for a truckload of ISK, an item that could have "paid off" in 3 to 10 years of gameplay (as opposed to 3 to 10 MONTHS of gameplay for T1 BPOs). People that used to purchase some of the less-than-insanely-popular T2 items will find themselves losing a cheap supplier, faced with a manyfold increase in price almost overnight. People that don't fit into any of the above two categories STILL lose something : they lose the confidence that CCP will continue respecting their right to hold onto their virtual property, the way CCP had before ever since the game started. If T2 BPOs for which the majority of their owners paid massive amounts of ISK at one time in the past can just be removed on a whim, how the hell can you trust CCP to not remove just about anything else on a whim ? Originally by: Whitehound removing them means more work, therefore less communism. Win for all. \o/ Originally by: Whitehound However, you have given reasons why they can be removed, being no problem for the economy, and so the problem can be solved.[...]So I still say to remove T2 BPOs. No one is going to miss them according to Akita ... Are you actually this stupid, or do you have to really, really, REALLY strain yourself to push out so much brainfarting ? [sarcasm] Titans, supercarriers, carriers and dreadnoughts are not a problem for the economy either. According to you, it should be perfectly acceptable to REMOVE ALL THE BPOs FOR THEM TOO ! In fact, remove the ships themselves too, you wouldn't want any players complaining about unfairness to get new ones except from people that have them. Oh, and don't bother with any form of compensation either, since everybody already got their money's worth out of them, even if they purchased one a couple of minutes ago. I mean, nobody would miss them anyway, according to you. [/sarcasm] _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2010.08.22 15:31:00 - [138] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Harris It's already fair for all. No, it is not, or else would we not have these threads. Massive logic fail. You're asserting that people only cry like little girls with sc****d knees when actual unfairness exists. This is not the case. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2010.08.22 16:36:00 - [139] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Harris It's already fair for all. No, it is not, or else would we not have these threads. It's as fair as it's going to get. If it wasn't we wouldn't have these threads because something would be done, and it has been and is. Their existence isn't unfair, people paid for them, just like any other item. Their distribution probably was, but the damage has been done, so deal with it, if you want a game where everyone starts with the same gear, Eve is not for you, it will never be. Removing them from people that paid for them, would most certainly be even more unfair than their distribution.
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.08.22 16:36:00 - [140] Originally by: Akita T Yes, EVERYBODY loses something if all T2 BPOs are removed without any compensation whatsoever, whether they had a T2 BPO or not. No. You already said that it has no economic influence. Are you now saying that you were wrong? CCP has removed several things over the years without any form of compensation. Many NPC buy orders have gone in the past, just recently were the fixed insurances and deep safe spots removed. Now it is time to remove T2 BPOs and let invention rule the market. T2 BPOs are an anachronism and new players hate them, because it is impossible for them to get any. It is one thing when an old player flies a Titan and a rookie flies in a frigate. It is complete different thing when there is no hope and gives EVE a bad imagine. And because of Falcon ... --

Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.08.22 16:40:00 - [141] Edited by: Akita T on 22/08/2010 16:43:39 Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Akita T Yes, EVERYBODY loses something if all T2 BPOs are removed without any compensation whatsoever, whether they had a T2 BPO or not. No. You already said that it has no economic influence. Are you now saying that you were wrong? <long strings of expletives deleted> I said they're not an economic PROBLEM, not that they don't have any influence whatsoever. I even explained the BENEFITS T2 BPOs have on some sectors of the market. Not my fault you fail at reading comprehension. Originally by: Whitehound It is one thing when an old player flies a Titan and a rookie flies in a frigate. It is complete different thing when there is no hope and gives EVE a bad imagine. Except that it's not a completely different thing. Or, if you want to call it a completely different things, it's in FAVOUR of the T2 BPOs, not titans. A NEWBIE HAS A MUCH BIGGER CHANCE TO GET A T2 BPO COMPARED TO THE CHANCE TO GET A TITAN. A T2 BPO is cheaper than a titan, can be obtained and used in highsec, can be obtained via contracts with no chance of scamming, and there are far more of them around (orders of magnitude more). _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2010.08.22 16:45:00 - [142] Edited by: SurrenderMonkey on 22/08/2010 16:46:04 Originally by: Whitehound No. You already said that it has no economic influence. Are you now saying that you were wrong? This may come as a shock to you, but there are factors at play here besides their influence on the economy as a whole. Their economic influence (lack thereof, actually) is only relevant with regard to the complaints of the effect that, "Whawha bpos are screwing up the T2 market!" They're not. They're a blip on the radar for most items. Quote: CCP has removed several things over the years without any form of compensation. Many NPC buy orders have gone in the past, just recently were the fixed insurances and deep safe spots removed. Because those are all totally analogous to T2 BPOs, right? Quote: Now it is time to remove T2 BPOs and let invention rule the market. Invention already DOES rule the market. That you choose to ignore that does not make it untrue. Quote: T2 BPOs are an anachronism and new players hate them, because it is impossible for them to get any. I started my production character in late February of this year. He has already earned enough, all on his own, to buy multiple T2 BPOs, if I were so inclined. Not only is it not "impossible" for a new player to get T2 BPOs, it's not even particularly difficult. Quote: It is one thing when an old player flies a Titan and a rookie flies in a frigate. It is complete different thing when there is no hope and gives EVE a bad imagine. Uh... T2 BPOs are vastly more accessible to a new player than a titan. Just FYI. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.08.22 17:01:00 - [143] Edited by: Whitehound on 22/08/2010 17:02:43 Originally by: Akita T Except that it's not a completely different thing. Or, if you want to call it a completely different things, it's in FAVOUR of the T2 BPOs, not titans. Again, no. With Titans and frigates is the gap intentional. With T2 BPOs it is accidental, and unawesome for an MMO. T2 BPOs are like a skeleton in the closet of the developers and with everyone knowing that it is there. I still say to remove T2 BPOs. Originally by: SurrenderMonkey This may come as a shock to you, ... This is where I stopped reading your comment. --
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.08.22 17:22:00 - [144] Edited by: Akita T on 22/08/2010 17:25:58 Originally by: Whitehound Again, no. With Titans and frigates is the gap intentional. With T2 BPOs it is accidental, and unawesome for an MMO. T2 BPOs are like a skeleton in the closet of the developers and with everyone knowing that it is there. Again, yes. It's irrelevant how they came to be, it is only relevant that they are here and what you plan to do about them. Removing them outright without any form of compensation would be an even bigger skeleton in CCP's closet. MUCH bigger. I don't own any T2 BPOs. I can easily afford to buy multiple BPOs. I can even afford to buy multiple Hulk BPOs. I don't WANT any T2 BPOs. I'm not going to buy any T2 BPOs. If somebody would give me a T2 BPO as a gift, I would sell it. Still, if CCP ever removes T2 BPOs without any compensation, I will be seriously pondering something I never pondered before, namely quitting EVE. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2010.08.22 17:24:00 - [145] Originally by: Whitehound This is where I stopped reading your comment, which is convenient for me because it turns out you were pointing out that everything I had previously said was objectively, demonstrably, factually incorrect. FTFY --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.08.22 17:36:00 - [146] Originally by: Akita T Again, yes. It's irrelevant how they came to be, it is only relevant that they are here and what you plan to do about them. Removing them outright without any form of compensation would be an even bigger skeleton in CCP's closet. MUCH bigger. I still want them removed. Why do you want a compensation? Quote: Still, if CCP ever removes T2 BPOs without any compensation, I will be seriously pondering something I never pondered before, namely quitting EVE, because I would have had lost all trust in them to use their brains. You would seriously rage-emo-quit, because of the removal of the T2 BPOs?! --
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.08.22 17:47:00 - [147] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Akita T Again, yes. It's irrelevant how they came to be, it is only relevant that they are here and what you plan to do about them. Removing them outright without any form of compensation would be an even bigger skeleton in CCP's closet. MUCH bigger. I still want them removed. Why do you want a compensation? Because ARBITRARILY REMOVING SOMETHING MOST OWNERS HAVE WORKED HARD FOR (just because of a vocal emotion-driven opposition with no basis in fact) WITHOUT ANY FORM OF COMPENSATION IS UTTERLY REPULSING. Quote: Still, if CCP ever removes T2 BPOs without any compensation, I will be seriously pondering something I never pondered before, namely quitting EVE, because I would have had lost all trust in them to use their brains. You would seriously rage-emo-quit, because of the removal of the T2 BPOs?! First off, CCP would never, ever do that (or so I still think), so the entire situation is not only entirely hypothetical, but also ridiculous. But yeah, if you want to put it that way, yes, I would "emoragequit". Except without emo and without rage. Just silently quit. Not just that, but I would also sell out all my stuff via RMT. One of the reasons why I would keep my quitting silent. I would quit before CCP arbitrarily decided to remove without compensations some other thing from the game, this time something that would actually affect me personally. THEY CAME FIRST for the T2 BPO owners, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a T2 BPO owner. THEN THEY CAME for the pirates, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a pirate. THEN THEY CAME for the traders, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trader anymore. THEN THEY CAME for me and by that time no one was left to speak up. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Nahkep Narmelion Gallente CALIMA COLLABORATIVE	Posted - 2010.08.22 17:56:00 - [148] Originally by: Whitehound Edited by: Whitehound on 21/08/2010 23:05:24 All owners of T2 BPOs actually should see their precious T2 BPOs disappear. That is my opinion. Reasons: - EVE is just a game, get over it, loss is meaningful, T2 BPO owner tears are best tears, etc. - the T2 BPO owners did make a lot of ISKs with them while others could not, so they have nothing to complain about - do not bother the devs with request for new mechanics to sort out old problems, just get rid of the problem as easily as possible and move on Whitehound's account should disappear, because, 1. Its just a game and Whitehound's tears are the best tears. 2. Whitehound has had his fun, now its time to stop. 3. Don't bother CCP, just go away, preferably back to Maple Story. More seriously, 1. Capriciously taking assets from players, hard earned assets, is a good way to fk the game right into the ground. How many players sitting there in a SC or Titan will think, "Hmmmm, lots of blabbering about too many titans, too many motherships....will they take away my supercap?" Or any other player for that matter, you need more of a reason other than you are a fking prick. 2. T2 BPO owners who just bought their T2 BPO have just made a huge investment and have yet to see much return, or are you just completely and utterly stupid? 3. That last one of yours is just stupid. Easiest solution, just take Eve Online offline forever. Nothing to fix ever again. Quote: Quote: Also, what about people that RECENTLY became T2 BPO owners ? What about them? They are hardly any different from those who had T2 BPOs for a long time, nor are they much different from those players who never had one. Okay, how about we set your wallet to -60 billion for sts and giggles, after all watching you whine on the forums will make the rest of us laugh. Quote: No, not right back at me, Akita. Stop being a troll. Players have suggested complex changes to compensate for the remove of T2 BPOs. I think there is no need for complex changes. Just get rid of them. There is a "have and not-have" situation and that is always a problem. It is always a problem everywhere. I have far more than a noob. I have several accounts, so I have more than a single account player. Some players have more SP than others. On and on and on. This is Eve, inequity and "unfairness" are a feature not a bug. People come to this game because it allows you to do what you want and try to get what you want...with minimal hand holding by CCP. Quote:** Well, Akita, you are not talking. You are showing that you do not care about players who feel an unfairness in how T2 BPOs are distributed and lose yourself in logic, calculation and analysis for no reason. I feel it was unfair that my first cruiser was ganked in low sec by multiple players. Or how about the poor 1 year old player who still can't fly a dread? Poor guy, its oh so unfair. Or the 6 month character struggling to buy skill books to be able to fly T2 cruisers and use T2 modules? By the gods such inequity should not be allowed to stand I say. It is about time you HTFU. Oh I know you'll say, but those guys can skill up. Work hard, buy the skill books, and wait like everyone else. Well bonehead, anyone can work hard, save their isk and make wise investments and after waiting, like everyone else, buy a T2 BPO. See, T2 BPOs are like skill points, titans, and such. With hard work, time, and smart play/planning anyone can own one. This is the way the game was designed in just about every aspect. Changing it for one single class of items is stupid and based on the recent PLEX change something CCP is unlikely to ever do. Now, HTFU boy.
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.08.22 18:12:00 - [149] Originally by: Akita T Because ARBITRARILY REMOVING SOMETHING MOST OWNERS HAVE WORKED HARD FOR (just because of a vocal emotion-driven opposition with no basis in fact or logic wants it so) WITHOUT ANY FORM OF COMPENSATION IS UTTERLY REPULSIVE to me and many others. It was a lottery, not hard work, that made T2 BPOs available for some players. In comparison, getting a Titan is hard work and a lot of patience. However, I do not want to deny you a compensation (nor is it for me to give a compensation). I only want to see the T2 BPOs removed. You should however be able to say why you want a compensation instead of using all caps. If you cannot say why you deserve a compensation then how should the developers measure a good compensation? For the sake of arguing, I still think that the owners of T2 BPOs have an advantage over those who have to use invention and that any compensation for a removal is a mere false perception. --
Nahkep Narmelion Gallente CALIMA COLLABORATIVE	Posted - 2010.08.22 18:13:00 - [150] Quote: No. You already said that it has no economic influence. Are you now saying that you were wrong? Please quote where Akita made such a claim. I can see several places where she made the exact opposite claim. I'm going to guess you are pretty young...still in college...try an economics course, preferably micro economics. Here is what Akita has said: 1. T2 BPOs do keep some markets that have minimal profit margins going. 2. T2 BPOs do not distort the market. This in absolutely no way means T2 BPOs do not have an economic impact. Just about anything you do in Eve of any substance has an economic impact. Kill a NPC for the bounty, an impact. Build something, and impact. Mine, an impact. Destroy a players ship, an impact. Move something from one region to another to sell for a profit, an impact. Haul for pay, an impact. They all have small impacts which when aggregated up drive the market. Quote: CCP has removed several things over the years without any form of compensation. Many NPC buy orders have gone in the past, just recently were the fixed insurances and deep safe spots removed. Now it is time to remove T2 BPOs and let invention rule the market. Removing NPC buy orders is not the same thing as removing items arbitrarily. It is making the market more player driven and merely changes the opportunities many players face and was a long term goal from the very beginning. Fixing insurance fixes a market distortion. Deep safe's were removed because the mechanic to create them was removed--i.e. you actually have a have/have not situation. None of these apply to T2 BPOs since 1. T2 markets are player driven (like removing NPC buy orders) 2. T2 BPOs do not distort the market, prices are set by invention which is competitive 3. Anyone can acquire a T2 BPO via hard work. [/econ 101]

Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.08.22 18:16:00 - [151] Originally by: Nahkep Narmelion Please quote where Akita made such a claim. No, go and set my account on fire. --
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2010.08.22 18:19:00 - [152] Originally by: Whitehound However, I do not want to deny you a compensation (nor is it for me to give a compensation). I only want to see the T2 BPOs removed. You should however be able to say why you want a compensation instead of using all caps. If you cannot say why you deserve a compensation then how should the developers measure a good compensation? IIRC, and it's possible that I don't, I'm not his biographer - Akita doesn't even own any BPOs. The aversion is to the wholly arbitrary destruction of players' assets for no appreciable benefit to the game as a whole. Quote: For the sake of arguing, I still think that the owners of T2 BPOs have an advantage over those who have to use invention and that any compensation for a removal is a mere false perception. They have an advantage and... so what? What is your point? Players with more isk have more advantages. Players with supercaps have more advantages. Players with more SPs have more advantages. Players with access to better space have more advantages. None of these advantages are static, nor are any of them insurmountable. If you think BPOs confer such a huge advantage, then go buy one! They are really quite easily attained. Head on over to the sell orders forum on any given day and you'll probably see over a dozen for sale. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp
Nahkep Narmelion Gallente CALIMA COLLABORATIVE	Posted - 2010.08.22 18:21:00 - [153] Edited by: Nahkep Narmelion on 22/08/2010 18:22:31 Quote: It was a lottery, not hard work, that made T2 BPOs available for some players. In comparison, getting a Titan is hard work and a lot of patience. Either you are a troll or incredibly ignorant. People who participated in the lottery worked very hard as your chances increased the more RP you had. People would grind endlessly for RP sometimes over multiple accounts to maximize their chances. So either you know this and are trolling, or you are incredibly ignorant. Hmmm 2009.02.02 for your first employment...I'll go with incredibly ignorant unless you are an alt of much older character.
Harris	Posted - 2010.08.22 18:34:00 - [154] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Harris It's already fair for all. No, it is not, or else would we not have these threads. Yes it is. We have these threads because you like to argue against other people's logic for kicks. That and that some folks are blinkered and have only been in this game for 2 minutes and perceive every thing that others have that they don't as 'unfair'. As explained, anyone can get T2 BPOs by buying them. Anyone can get more SP'd characters by buying them. Anyone can get more isk by selling plex. Anyone can do anything they want in this game by applying a little bit of noggin and/or a bit of elbow grease. That you are possibly unwilling to do either doesn't make you right. Either that or you're a troll, but we covered that already.
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.08.22 18:37:00 - [155] Originally by: Nahkep Narmelion People who participated in the lottery worked very hard as your chances increased the more RP you had. People would grind endlessly for RP sometimes over multiple accounts to maximize their chances. And none of the new players will ever get to know what this was like. So the same question to you: what kind of compensation to you expect to get in return for a removal of the T2 BPOs? Is it skillpoints, ISKs, an apology by CCP?? --
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2010.08.22 18:38:00 - [156] You don't seem to grasp that the vast majority of present-day BPO holders did not acquire them through the lottery. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp
Nahkep Narmelion Gallente CALIMA COLLABORATIVE	Posted - 2010.08.22 18:45:00 - [157] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Nahkep Narmelion People who participated in the lottery worked very hard as your chances increased the more RP you had. People would grind endlessly for RP sometimes over multiple accounts to maximize their chances. And none of the new players will ever get to know what this was like. So the same question to you: what kind of compensation to you expect to get in return for a removal of the T2 BPOs? Is it skillpoints, ISKs, an apology by CCP?? I don't own any T2 BPOs. I know, probably think I'm lying, but I don't care. At best, isk compensation. The value that the character paid for it when they bought it at the very least. One could argue that they could get paid the discounted profits for say 5 years as well...or longer. Heck we could discount it out to infinity.
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.08.22 18:59:00 - [158] Originally by: Nahkep Narmelion I don't own any T2 BPOs. I know, probably think I'm lying, but I don't care. At best, isk compensation. The value that the character paid for it when they bought it at the very least. One could argue that they could get paid the discounted profits for say 5 years as well...or longer. Heck we could discount it out to infinity. So you believe a T2 BPO has a major, if not infinite, financial advantage for its owner, while at the same time you do not posses a T2 BPO to backup your believe. And you believe that it has this value after some players ran R&D agents and won such a BPO in the lottery. Do you think that this is fair? CCP is now going to remove the ghost accumulation of RP points. What kind of compensation do you feel necessary to be given here? --
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2010.08.22 19:02:00 - [159] Originally by: Whitehound CCP is now going to remove the ghost accumulation of RP points. What kind of compensation do you feel necessary to be given here? They're not removing RPs that have already been accumulated, just the ability to accumulate future RPs. Your analogy fails. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp
Nahkep Narmelion Gallente CALIMA COLLABORATIVE	Posted - 2010.08.22 19:15:00 - [160] Edited by: Nahkep Narmelion on 22/08/2010 19:18:04 Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Nahkep Narmelion I don't own any T2 BPOs. I know, probably think I'm lying, but I don't care. At best, isk compensation. The value that the character paid for it when they bought it at the very least. One could argue that they could get paid the discounted profits for say 5 years as well...or longer. Heck we could discount it out to infinity. So you believe a T2 BPO has a major, if not infinite, financial advantage for its owner, while at the same time you do not posses a T2 BPO to backup your believe. And you believe that it has this value after some players ran R&D agents and won such a BPO in the lottery. Do you think that this is fair? CCP is now going to remove the ghost accumulation of RP points. What kind of compensation do you feel necessary to be given here? No, I think T2 BPOs have a financial value. Does that mean they have an advantage over invention? That is arguable, IMO. Sure the T2 BPO can be researched, increasing its value BTW, and thus produce at a lower costs. Creating extra profit on a per module basis, but a good inventor can likely out produce the T2 BPO holder thereby negating the extra profit, or maybe even exceeding it. So, it is an empirical question and one that likely varies from T2 BPO to T2 BPO. Still, the fact that it has a financial value, both in and outside the game, means that arbitrarily taking it from a player is unfair, at least without compensation. As for owning T2 BPOs, I prefer the flexibility of invention. A market goes to crap, I move on to the next one without having a mega pile of isk tied up in a single investment. Diversification, its good for you....unless you have so much isk you can afford to do both. Sadly I don't have that much isk. Quote: CCP is now going to remove the ghost accumulation of RP points. What kind of compensation do you feel necessary to be given here? Linky please. But assuming it is true, I have less of a problem with this as it is like ghost training...why should people train and not pay, while I pay and train. It is, in a way free riding off of me and the rest of the players who continuously pay their subs to keep the game alive. Edit: Quote: They're not removing RPs that have already been accumulated, just the ability to accumulate future RPs. Your analogy fails. Ahh, should have stopped to read surrendermonkey, always a good thing to do IMO, but there you go....letting them keep what they already acquired and preventing acquisition of more. Kinda like T2 BPOs.

Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.08.22 19:30:00 - [161] Originally by: Nahkep Narmelion Linky please. devblog --
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.08.22 19:42:00 - [162] Crap on a crutch, Whitehound, you can't possibly be this stupid and still retain the ability to form coherent sentences in writing, so I'm going to have to assume you are either skip-reading only tiny parts of what you respond to OR plain old trolling OR a masochist. YES, T2 BPOs do give their owners an advantage. But NOT an unfair advantage, just an advantage. The advantage they give is counterbalanced by their market value, you have to decide if you'd rather have a bulk sum of X ISK now, or a much smaller sum Y on a regular basis from now on until you decide to sell it eventually, when the price will be Z, different from X. That, plus several other invalid "why we hate T2 BPO" arguments are repeatedly shot down here, where you seem to be afraid to go. AND YES, most of the current owners of T2 BPOs HAVE worked hard to get them. That's due to TWO separate things. First, because it wasn't a "one lot for every person" lottery, but a "1 RP per lot" lottery, and getting RP _was_ hard work. Sure, there was some degree of luck involved, but nowhere near as much as you seem to think there was. Mostly it was just hard work. Second, because almost all of the valuable T2 BPOs (and most T2 BPOs in general) are no longer in the hands of people that obtained them from the lottery, but in the hands of people that PURCHASED them from the previous owners (hell knows how many hands some particular T2 BPOs have been through), the same way anybody else could do right now. LET'S HAVE SEVERAL HYPOTHETICAL SCENARIOS THEN... AND SAY WHICH ONE IS OK AND WHICH ONE ISN'T, AND WHY. Scenario 1 : You work and work and work and get 101 bil ISK in your wallet. CCP decides all player wallets should be capped at 1 bil ISK. You lose 100 bil ISK. Scenario 2 : I give you 100 bil ISK. A while passes. Then I change my mind and ask CCP to give me that ISK back. You lose 100 bil ISK. Scenario 3 : I buy a T2 BPO for 100 bil ISK. I give you the T2 BPO, you gleefully put up a WTA and the last bidder said "100 bil". CCP removes T2 BPOs with no warning before you get a chance to complete the transaction. You lose assets that were worth 100 bil ISK. Scenario 4 : You have 100 bil ISK which you earned through hard work. You buy a 100 bil ISK BPO. CCP removes all T2 BPOs. You lose assets that were worth 100 bil ISK. Scenario 5 : You were around during the lottery and you won a T2 BPO that is worth 100 bil ISK now if you sold it. CCP removes all T2 BPOs. You lose assets that were worth 100 bil ISK. Scenario 6 : You bought a T2 BPO for 200 bil ISK three years ago. It would be worth 100 bil ISK now if you sold it. CCP removes T2 BPOs. You lose assets that were worth 100 bil ISK. Scenario 7 : You were around during the lottery and you won a T2 BPO that would be worth 100 bil ISK now if you still had it and tried to sell it. YOU HAVE SOLD IT THREE YEARS AGO FOR 200 BIL ISK. You don't give a damn if CCP removes all T2 BPOs. You lose nothing. Scenario 8 : Person A sold a T2 BPO to person B three years ago for 200 bil ISK. The blueprint is worth 100 bil ISK on the market. CCP removes all T2 BPOs and takes out 200 bil ISK from person A's wallet. Person A loses 200 bil ISK, person B loses assets that were worth 100 bil ISK. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.08.22 20:24:00 - [163] Edited by: Whitehound on 22/08/2010 20:31:06 Originally by: Akita T ... I still want to see them removed. I am not interested in hypothetical scenarios or pretty arguments. --
Harris	Posted - 2010.08.22 20:42:00 - [164] Edited by: Harris on 22/08/2010 20:42:22 Originally by: Whitehound I still want to see them removed. I am not interested in hypothetical scenarios or pretty arguments. I don't want to see them removed. That puts the tally at 2-1 at least. You lose fella.
Yansa Tholus	Posted - 2010.08.22 21:01:00 - [165] CCP will not remove them from the game. This thread is pointless. CCP will not remove State Ravens, Guardian-Vexors, or anything unique from the game. Only way to remove them is eather shoot them or trash them.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.08.22 21:30:00 - [166] Edited by: Akita T on 22/08/2010 21:32:40 Originally by: Whitehound I still want to see them removed. I am not interested in hypothetical scenarios or pretty arguments. So, basically you're saying "I don't care I have absolutely no good reason, I want CCP to make XYZ happen just because I said so" ? <long list of expletives deleted> Just... just GTFO. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.08.22 22:20:00 - [167] Originally by: Akita T So, basically you're saying "I don't care I have absolutely no good reason, I want CCP to make XYZ happen just because I said so" ? No. I am saying that I do not have pretty reasons. The good reasons have been mentioned by others before me and do not need repeating. --
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.08.22 22:23:00 - [168] Originally by: Harris That puts the tally at 2-1 at least. You lose fella. Seeing you count to three is a win. --
umah	Posted - 2010.08.22 22:59:00 - [169] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Nahkep Narmelion Linky please. devblog This change is irrelevant to the discussion. CCP is not removing role point accumulation on active accounts.
umah	Posted - 2010.08.22 23:09:00 - [170] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Harris That puts the tally at 2-1 at least. You lose fella. Seeing you count to three is a win. Y is better than Z, so make Y worse. Get rid of X because its hard to get X's. What's the point of this game if you can't win nice things? T2 BPO's are nice things to have. When you gank an indy, and it has a T2 BPO in the hold, don't you feel happy? Stop being a prig.

Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.08.22 23:38:00 - [171] Edited by: Akita T on 22/08/2010 23:41:19 Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Akita T So, basically you're saying "I don't care I have absolutely no good reason, I want CCP to make XYZ happen just because I said so" ? No. I am saying that I do not have pretty reasons. The good reasons have been mentioned by others before me and do not need repeating. You never mentioned to good reason so far ("good" as in "legitimate", "making sense", "logical"). Not a single one. In fact, all you did mention _were_ "pretty" reasons, with sunshine and flowers and equality for all and other such complete nonsense as far as EVE is concerned... among a host of "PETTY" reasons. If I somehow missed one such alleged legitimate reason, feel free to repeat it. We're all waiting. P.S. Feel free to put it IN HERE when you recall it. That thread is called "To people that want to remove T2 BPOs : give a GOOD reason why", so, you know, if you actually have one, it should go in there, as there is not one of such kind in there yet. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.08.23 02:49:00 - [172] Edited by: Jovialmadness on 23/08/2010 02:50:24 why the bleep was this bastard of a thread bumped Whitehound is a poor troll that is having some kind of carebear fantasy MMO flashback in the wrong damn game. You need to gtfo bro. Tell ya what, since you will stay and emobaby all over these forums im going to go buy another tech 2 bpo for myself because of you bro. Then im going to take a shower created from pure flowing isk from tech 2 bpo profits. I still need one more thing for my shower. Can you guess what it is? yes....your tears. keep them coming
Nahkep Narmelion Gallente CALIMA COLLABORATIVE	Posted - 2010.08.23 04:18:00 - [173] Edited by: Nahkep Narmelion on 23/08/2010 04:17:54 Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Akita T So, basically you're saying "I don't care I have absolutely no good reason, I want CCP to make XYZ happen just because I said so" ? No. I am saying that I do not have pretty reasons, because I have no arguments or valid reasons. FIFY
Mal Lokrano Gallente The Executives IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.23 04:53:00 - [174] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Harris It's already fair for all. No, it is not, or else would we not have these threads. We have these threads because people see somthing they don't like and demand it be changed, regardless of what everyone else thinks. The problem isn't people trying to improve the game, its people trying to improve the game with really bad ideas, which will not improve fairness or balance. How would you like it if you held a 50 bil isk ship or BPO and were then told oh were taking it becuase of unfairness, so deal with it? Besides BPOs are becoming less pwerful every year than they used to be. Oh and since people seem to want to turn this into a communismn game just for fun, "In America you can always find a party, in Soviet Union, the party always finds you!" ____________________________________________ When going to a party with wine, women, and song. Always ascertain the vintage of the first two. Don't bug me ingame about diplomats, I don't know wh
Nahkep Narmelion Gallente CALIMA COLLABORATIVE	Posted - 2010.08.23 04:57:00 - [175] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Harris It's already fair for all. No, it is not, or else would we not have these threads. It is fair now. The initial unfairness--the lottery and the follow on cartels--have been wiped out of the game by invention and competition. If you still want one or more of the remaining T2 BPOs you have the same shot at getting one like I do: Work hard. Play smart. Save your isk. Buy an existing T2 BPO. There is nothing unfair there.
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.08.23 07:08:00 - [176] Nothing has convinced me yet. I still want to see them removed. Each of your comments only shows how much this change is needed. T2 BPO owner tears will be a great win for the majority of the players like all the other tears before. --
Narfas Deteis	Posted - 2010.08.23 10:00:00 - [177] Originally by: Whitehound Edited by: Whitehound on 23/08/2010 07:19:00 Nothing has convinced me yet. I still want to see them removed. Each of your comments only shows how much this change is needed. T2 BPO owner tears will be a great win for the majority of the players like all the other tears before. All your arguing to keep them is proof for the success of the change and the only way to teach you to let go is by taken them away from you. Hmm, so, short and incomplete list of things to remove (because people complain, whine or don't bother): - T2 BPO - learning skills (and maybe skills in general, because of advantages they give) - pirates - supercapitals - sov - HICs - bubbles - mining - PI - money - characters older then, say, 1 year - electronic warfare - non-consensual pvp - cloaks - drake - blobs - etc. What to introduce instaed, to satisfy whiny playerbase? - I WIN button for everyone (one click needed) Everybody would be happy! Oh wait... Nobody would play this ****.
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.08.23 13:12:00 - [178] Originally by: Whitehound Edited by: Whitehound on 23/08/2010 07:19:00 Nothing has convinced me yet. I still want to see them removed. Each of your comments only shows how much this change is needed. T2 BPO owner tears will be a great win for the majority of the players like all the other tears before. All your arguing to keep them is proof for the success of the change and the only way to teach you to let go is by taken them away from you. Im afraid im not here to convince you of anything. Im here to tell you that you are the only one in tears. Tears of frustration and lust. Guys let this dude rant. Nothing we say will change his deluded opinion. Akita you are blasting him with thought out responses that are too involved for this dude. Especially considering every reply he gives consists of five worded drizzle.
Mr LaForge	Posted - 2010.08.23 14:20:00 - [179] Originally by: Whitehound Edited by: Whitehound on 23/08/2010 07:19:00 Nothing has convinced me yet. I still want to see them removed. Each of your comments only shows how much this change is needed. T2 BPO owner tears will be a great win for the majority of the players like all the other tears before. All your arguing to keep them is proof for the success of the change and the only way to teach you to let go is by taken them away from you. I can has your stuff?
Nahkep Narmelion Gallente CALIMA COLLABORATIVE	Posted - 2010.08.23 14:53:00 - [180] Originally by: Whitehound Edited by: Whitehound on 23/08/2010 07:19:00 Nothing has convinced me yet. I still want to see them removed. Each of your comments only shows how much this change is needed. T2 BPO owner tears will be a great win for the majority of the players like all the other tears before. All your arguing to keep them is proof for the success of the change and the only way to teach you to let go is by taken them away from you. I don't have any T2 BPOs. I really don't plan on buying any. However, like Akita I'd take a hard look at this game if T2 BPOs were removed from game with no compensation. I'd wonder, what's next? Further, there is a reason to keep them. Some markets have thin profit margins and the primary producers are T2 BPOs. Take them out and those markets would undoubtedly change...for the worse for the rest of the player community via higher prices. You have no arguments, nothing. You can't even put together a valid reason other than you want to make other players miserable...but not by your own actions but via CCP. That's totally unacceptable. At least if it were other players one can fight back. Against CCP you can do nothing. Now that is unfair and I'd argue against the very spirit of the game. Really, just go back to WoW or Maple Story or whatever. This isn't the game for you.

Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.08.23 16:04:00 - [181] Edited by: Whitehound on 23/08/2010 16:15:15 Originally by: Jovialmadness Im afraid im not here to convince you of anything. Because you cannot convince me. Originally by: Mr LaForge I can has your stuff? Sure you can. I gave it all to Akita. Tell her to give it all to you. I have changed my mind. Originally by: Nahkep Narmelion I don't have any T2 BPOs. I really don't plan on buying any. ... That is a really great start for a comment and the point where I should have stopped reading it. None of it is changing my opinion. --
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.08.23 16:41:00 - [182] Originally by: Whitehound Because you cannot convince me. Yup, it's hard to argue with a moron, he wants to drag you down to his level, then he can win with experience. You cannot be convinced ? Fine. We'll stop trying to convince you with facts, logic and reason. In fact, we'll stop trying to convince you, period. From now on, all we'll do is insult and belittle you. GTFO, you piece of crap. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Harris	Posted - 2010.08.23 19:02:00 - [183] Edited by: Harris on 23/08/2010 19:04:16 Hey Whitehound. Just in case you get bored of sitting there giggling at the bigpotofpoo you're stirring, I found a Devblog that would've got your juices flowing - game changes to make the game fairer just for you.


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