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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.07.27 15:36:00 -
[1]
Since we all know that T2 BPOs are a great evil that drive new players to emo rage quit the game, it is obvious that CCP needs to remove them.
So, this thread is devoted to idea on how it can be done.
Clearly, logging in one day to simply find them removed is no more acceptable that the current insane disparity between new players and old, so I'll dismiss that out of hand.
Some compensation must be given to T2 BPO holders.
But what?
A year's worth of BPC's? 2 years.
Or perhaps the better approach is to allow T2 BPOs to be invented... Say 10K datacores for a 10% chance of inventing a BPO.
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Lutz Major
Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo
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Posted - 2010.07.27 15:54:00 -
[2]
Not again :(
Please stop it HERE!
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Breaker77
Gallente Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2010.07.27 16:29:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Breaker77 on 27/07/2010 16:31:25 IBTL, like 2 other threads from you on this exact same topic!
edit: oh this too
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2010.07.27 16:34:00 -
[4]
Group togethor with all your T2 BPO hater buddies.
Make donations to a fund.
When you have enough isk in the fund , buy some t2 BPO's then trash them.
If so many people hate T2 BPO's you should have no problem achiving this goal.
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Andalael
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Posted - 2010.07.27 16:40:00 -
[5]
if you dont have any good suggestions regarding the subject please do us all a favour and stfu
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.27 16:40:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Dav Varan Group togethor with all your T2 BPO hater buddies.
Make donations to a fund.
When you have enough isk in the fund , buy some t2 BPO's then trash them.
If so many people hate T2 BPO's you should have no problem achiving this goal.
Better yet, team up with the anti-learning skills crowd. They are foaming at the mouth for nerf-batting existing game mechanics and welfare programs for newbs.
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.07.27 16:49:00 -
[7]
So, if I understand what you are all saying....
They should just be removed without any compensation for existing holders?
Well, you are right that they must be removed, but I could not disagree more about not offering any compensation to the existing holders.
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.07.27 17:18:00 -
[8]
Tbh LHA you need to be removed from the game. |
Joe SMASH
You Got A Purty Mouth
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Posted - 2010.07.27 17:20:00 -
[9]
T2 BPOs are fine. People whining about T2 BPOs are the problem. -----------------------------------
Originally by: Kali Zero Warp core stabilizers are like condoms. Nice and safe, but they make it a little less fun for everyone involved.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2010.07.27 17:21:00 -
[10]
T2 BPOs should have either been removed or relatively nerfed in the last patch if not the one before.
Its a joke that they are allowed to remain and a tribute to spineless game devs.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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LordThyGod
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Posted - 2010.07.27 17:25:00 -
[11]
t2 bpos come no where near saturating the market, if you cant make a profit then the problem is that your building the same thing as 1000 other people and trying to use jita prices on your materials, and no i dont own any t2 bpo's
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.07.27 17:25:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Jovialmadness Tbh LHA you need to be removed from the game.
Because I think the current T2 BPO holders should be compensated in some way when those T2 BPOs are (and they will be) removed from the game?
That is pretty harsh.
I knew there were a lot of people that believed that most T2 BPO holders have LONG ago been compensated and that no further compensation is needed, but I didn't know they were this militant.
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Pachira Lotus
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Posted - 2010.07.27 17:26:00 -
[13]
Originally by: LHA Tarawa So, if I understand what you are all saying....
They should just be removed without any compensation for existing holders?
Well, you are right that they must be removed, but I could not disagree more about not offering any compensation to the existing holders.
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.07.27 17:31:00 -
[14]
Originally by: LHA Tarawa
Originally by: Jovialmadness Tbh LHA you need to be removed from the game.
Because I think the current T2 BPO holders should be compensated in some way when those T2 BPOs are (and they will be) removed from the game?
That is pretty harsh.
I knew there were a lot of people that believed that most T2 BPO holders have LONG ago been compensated and that no further compensation is needed, but I didn't know they were this militant.
Im not arguing with you anymore. Your cause is pointless and you are spewing trash spam at this point. |
LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.07.27 17:34:00 -
[15]
Originally by: LordThyGod t2 bpos come no where near saturating the market, if you cant make a profit then the problem is that your building the same thing as 1000 other people and trying to use jita prices on your materials, and no i dont own any t2 bpo's
That is not the point. Yes, T2 BPOs for most items are unable to fully meet demand, so inventors can get some scraps from the table.
This in no way justifies leaving T2 BPOs in the game.
Everything about Eve is (and other MMORPGs) designed to make it possible for newer players to eventually compete on a level playing field.
Given enough time, I can fly an interceptor, cruiser, frigare, HAC, even dread, or Super carrier as well and ANYONE. Yes, it takes time, yes it takes dedication... but it is possible.
This is true of industry as well. I could spend a few months and build as well as anyone, few more months to refine, few more to mine in a hulk as well as anyone, Max skills and standing for best R&D agents, PI, invention, etc, etc, etc.
Heck, I could even form a corp, then an alliance, gather enough forces, and maybe even carve out a chunk of 0.0 and run an outpost and many moon mining operations....
The exception is T2 BPOs where new players will NEVER be able to compete on a level playing field.
And it is not a slight advantage, it is HUGE!!!!
They are going to be removed. This great disparity between new players and old is just too great. Eventually, the number of new players emo raging about this injustice will drown out those that wnat the injustice to persist.
The only question is, what is fair compensation for the current owners when they are removed?
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.07.27 17:42:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Jovialmadness
Im not arguing with you anymore.
Any more?
Argument, noun: A set of statements in which one follows logically as a conclusion from the others.
Your previous argument was....
Originally by: Jovialmadness Tbh LHA you need to be removed from the game.
You think I should be removed from the game because I think the current owners should be compensated when the T2 BPOs are removed, and you think the T2 BPOs should be removed without any compnesation given to the current owners...
That is not an argument, it is a statement.
Originally by: Jovialmadness Your cause is pointless and you are spewing trash spam at this point.
Because....
Originally by: Jovialmadness Tbh LHA you need to be removed from the game.
Is such an insightful and valuable post in comparison to my "trash spam". Hmmmmmm...
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Simon Sei
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Posted - 2010.07.27 17:52:00 -
[17]
Originally by: LHA Tarawa
Originally by: LordThyGod t2 bpos come no where near saturating the market, if you cant make a profit then the problem is that your building the same thing as 1000 other people and trying to use jita prices on your materials, and no i dont own any t2 bpo's
That is not the point. Yes, T2 BPOs for most items are unable to fully meet demand, so inventors can get some scraps from the table.
This in no way justifies leaving T2 BPOs in the game.
Everything about Eve is (and other MMORPGs) designed to make it possible for newer players to eventually compete on a level playing field.
Given enough time, I can fly an interceptor, cruiser, frigare, HAC, even dread, or Super carrier as well and ANYONE. Yes, it takes time, yes it takes dedication... but it is possible.
This is true of industry as well. I could spend a few months and build as well as anyone, few more months to refine, few more to mine in a hulk as well as anyone, Max skills and standing for best R&D agents, PI, invention, etc, etc, etc.
Heck, I could even form a corp, then an alliance, gather enough forces, and maybe even carve out a chunk of 0.0 and run an outpost and many moon mining operations....
The exception is T2 BPOs where new players will NEVER be able to compete on a level playing field.
And it is not a slight advantage, it is HUGE!!!!
They are going to be removed. This great disparity between new players and old is just too great. Eventually, the number of new players emo raging about this injustice will drown out those that wnat the injustice to persist.
The only question is, what is fair compensation for the current owners when they are removed?
Please, seriously, get real. You act like this is the worst thing in the world.
First there are so many T2 items that would NEVER be invented if it was not for T2 BPO's. Almost every Small and Medium Item would skyrocket in price if they had to be made viw invention. Not to mention we would suddenly have a vast drought of items available unless CCP drastically changed the invention game mechanics. People think PI is a "Click Fest" must never have done invention. Not only is it a Click Fest, its a Click Fest that requires a POS in almost all cases.
Sure, it makes it hard to compete with on top end ships and stuff, like the Hulk, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water by ending all T2 BPO's.
And you are not prohibited by being a new player from going out and trying to obtain T2 BPO's. I would wager you have a better chance of making that happen then finding a good Moon to moon mine.
Face it EvE, like life, is not a level playing field.
By your "fairness" clause, the game will never be fair, cause yes, the game is stacked against the new players. Deal with it and stop trying to change the game mechanics because of a few high end T2 ships that you cant make as cheaply as players who "won the lottery".
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Berikath
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Posted - 2010.07.27 17:56:00 -
[18]
Originally by: LHA Tarawa Since we all know that T2 BPOs are a great evil that drive new players to emo rage quit the game, it is obvious that CCP needs to remove them.
So, this thread is devoted to idea on how it can be done.
Clearly, logging in one day to simply find them removed is no more acceptable that the current insane disparity between new players and old, so I'll dismiss that out of hand.
Some compensation must be given to T2 BPO holders.
But what?
A year's worth of BPC's? 2 years.
Or perhaps the better approach is to allow T2 BPOs to be invented... Say 10K datacores for a 10% chance of inventing a BPO.
Happy middle ground: T2 BPOs stay in the game. They are locked at the max ME/PE available from invention. BPOs are still very valuable, still cut down significantly on costs, but are in the same general ballpark as inventors.
Not saying do it, just saying it sounds like a reasonable compromise to me.
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.07.27 18:04:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Berikath
Originally by: LHA Tarawa Since we all know that T2 BPOs are a great evil that drive new players to emo rage quit the game, it is obvious that CCP needs to remove them.
So, this thread is devoted to idea on how it can be done.
Clearly, logging in one day to simply find them removed is no more acceptable that the current insane disparity between new players and old, so I'll dismiss that out of hand.
Some compensation must be given to T2 BPO holders.
But what?
A year's worth of BPC's? 2 years.
Or perhaps the better approach is to allow T2 BPOs to be invented... Say 10K datacores for a 10% chance of inventing a BPO.
Happy middle ground: T2 BPOs stay in the game. They are locked at the max ME/PE available from invention. BPOs are still very valuable, still cut down significantly on costs, but are in the same general ballpark as inventors.
Not saying do it, just saying it sounds like a reasonable compromise to me.
There are much better compromises than this.
They could make the base ME on invented BPCs be 0, limiting the materials advantage to 10% instead of 40%-50% that BPCs have now.
Or, they could allow you to pass ME and PE from a BPC through invention to take away even more of that huge advantage BPOs have.
Any of these, and even your suggestion of changing the BPOs to have a max ME of what invention can produce all have a significant disadvantage of not compensating current holders for their loss in current advantage.
IF, we had to accept a middle ground, then I'd suggest allowing players to invent BPOs. Make it cost, on average, something like 100 million ISK by requiring thousands of datacores per attempt with a relative low chance fo success per chance. This would bring the value of T2 BPOs down slowly over time as more and more of them are created, but would never bring them below the cost of the thousands and thousands of datacores required.
In this way, given enough time and effort, anyone would be able to compete with a T2 BPO holder on a level playing field.
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Di Mulle
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Posted - 2010.07.27 18:09:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Dav Varan Group togethor with all your T2 BPO hater buddies.
Make donations to a fund.
When you have enough isk in the fund , buy some t2 BPO's then trash them.
If so many people hate T2 BPO's you should have no problem achiving this goal.
Really ingenious, true EVE style. I support.
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.07.27 18:14:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Simon Sei
Please, seriously, get real. You act like this is the worst thing in the world.
Not the first thing in the world. This isn't genocidal **** gangs wondering through Darfor. It is just the absolute worst mechanic in the game, by far.
Originally by: Simon Sei
First there are so many T2 items that would NEVER be invented if it was not for T2 BPO's.
Well, if BPO holders were compensated with many years worth of BPOs, this would not be a probelm for a very long time. Long enough for CCP to tweak the invention mechanic.
Originally by: Simon Sei
Almost every Small and Medium Item would skyrocket in price if they had to be made viw invention. Not to mention we would suddenly have a vast drought of items available unless CCP drastically changed the invention game mechanics. People think PI is a "Click Fest" must never have done invention. Not only is it a Click Fest, its a Click Fest that requires a POS in almost all cases.
The reason invention sucks is to maintain the advantage of current T2 BPO holders. There is no reason they could not tweak invention at the same time T2 BPOs are removed. Pass through ME/PE. Make the number of datacores relative to the number of copies on the BPC and make the numebr of copies to be passed through to allow you to make large batch invention runs.
Originally by: Simon Sei
Sure, it makes it hard to compete with on top end ships and stuff, like the Hulk, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water by ending all T2 BPO's.
T2 BPOs are the one game mechanic where newer players can not hope to compete with older players, regardless of how much time and effort they dedicate to it.
Originally by: Simon Sei
And you are not prohibited by being a new player from going out and trying to obtain T2 BPO's. I would wager you have a better chance of making that happen then finding a good Moon to moon mine.
Originally by: Simon Sei
By your "fairness" clause, the game will never be fair, cause yes, the game is stacked against the new players. Deal with it and stop trying to change the game mechanics because of a few high end T2 ships that you cant make as cheaply as players who "won the lottery".
It is not just high end. EVERY T2 item that has a BPO can be built much more cheaply (something like half the price on average) with a well researched BPO than with the CRAP ME BPCs that come out of invention.
If the foot were on the other shoe, you would not feel the same.
T2 BPOs = EVE in easy mode for older players and newer platers stand no chace of ever being able to compete on a level playing field.
This is the ONE AND ONLY activity in EVE where this is true.
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Wendi Watson
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Posted - 2010.07.27 18:25:00 -
[22]
Aww jeez, not this crap again.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.07.27 18:29:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 27/07/2010 18:31:13
Originally by: LHA Tarawa Since we all know that T2 BPOs are a great evil that drive new players to emo rage quit the game, it is obvious that CCP needs to remove them.
Apparently you are the only one that really cares.
So when you will "emo rage quit"?
Originally by: Ghoest T2 BPOs should have either been removed or relatively nerfed in the last patch if not the one before.
They were nerfed in Trinity. It seem you haven't jet noticed.
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.07.27 18:31:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Wendi Watson Aww jeez, not this crap again.
Again? The massive inequity between onler players and newer was removed, then brought back?
Wow, I thought that would have been huge news.
I thought it was "this crap STILL"! I thought it shocking that CCP could let newer players be screwed over this badly for this long. I find it even MORE shocking that they resoved it, then let it come back again!
If T2 BPOs are removed again, please sned me a mail so that I don't miss it like it seems I did the last time.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.07.27 18:35:00 -
[25]
Originally by: LHA Tarawa So, this thread is devoted to idea on how it can be done.
NPC "WTB" contracts that keep refreshing and going up in value until all T2 BPOs of that type are gone That is the only "fair" way
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.07.27 18:47:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: LHA Tarawa So, this thread is devoted to idea on how it can be done.
NPC "WTB" contracts that keep refreshing and going up in value until all T2 BPOs of that type are gone That is the only "fair" way
Convert them to BPCs with 5 years of runs, then you get a % of the payout based on the % of copies still on the BPC when you finally sell to the NPC buy order. Start it fairly low and take years to get to current contract sell price. (People buying at that price expect it to take years to pay back anyway).
Want infiante pay out, fine... stop using it while you wait decades for the NPC buy order to reach some insane price point that you finally sell.
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Kryss Stevenson
Caldari Red Stallion Mercantile and Manufacturing
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Posted - 2010.07.27 18:54:00 -
[27]
Mmm... I think my 10 invention lines versus 1 BPO still wins in the end. I just out produce them. There are not enough tech 2 BPOs in game to make them that game breaking. More likely it is the inventors that want to sell no matter what the cost is. ______________________________ Rock's fine, Nerf paper |
LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.07.27 18:54:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: LHA Tarawa So, this thread is devoted to idea on how it can be done.
NPC "WTB" contracts that keep refreshing and going up in value until all T2 BPOs of that type are gone That is the only "fair" way
Oh... better yet...
Start the buy orders at whatever the highest contract price was (prior to some cut off date pre news leaking). Then make it go up by about a reasonible per-day profit would have been for T2 BPO.
The same day the buy orders go up, invention is fixed to pass ME, PE, and copies of the BPC through to the T2 BPC, and to make datacores relative to the number of copies. This removes the great advantage of T2 BPOs so that there is no reason not to sell the T2 BPO at the previous high contract price.
Great idea Akita, just needed a little "fleshing out".
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.07.27 18:59:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Kryss Stevenson Mmm... I think my 10 invention lines versus 1 BPO still wins in the end. I just out produce them. There are not enough tech 2 BPOs in game to make them that game breaking. More likely it is the inventors that want to sell no matter what the cost is.
Except they can produce with the T2 BPO AND 10 invention lines, and just re-won in the end.
I'm not complaining that some things sell at unprofitable levels. I'm complaining about the fact that newer players, reegardless of how much time and focus they put into it, can never compete on a level playing field with T2 BPO holders...
This is the only aspect of EVE where this is true. In all other areas, eventually a newb will be able to compete on a level playing field.
T2 BPOs must go.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.07.27 19:03:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Akita T on 27/07/2010 19:04:32
Originally by: LHA Tarawa
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: LHA Tarawa So, this thread is devoted to idea on how it can be done.
NPC "WTB" contracts that keep refreshing and going up in value until all T2 BPOs of that type are gone That is the only "fair" way
Oh... better yet... Start the buy orders at whatever the highest contract price was (prior to some cut off date pre news leaking). Then make it go up by about a reasonible per-day profit would have been for T2 BPO. The same day the buy orders go up, invention is fixed to pass ME, PE, and copies of the BPC through to the T2 BPC, and to make datacores relative to the number of copies. This removes the great advantage of T2 BPOs so that there is no reason not to sell the T2 BPO at the previous high contract price. Great idea Akita, just needed a little "fleshing out".
And how exactly does that fix your PRIMARY stated concern of "NOT giving older players an advantage" ? I'd call giving them truckloads of ISK a pretty good and clear advantage.
Originally by: LHA Tarawa T2 BPOs must go.
I still have to see an argument for why they MUST go. So far all I've seen are arguments for "why I, the poster of this, would prefer T2 BPOs to go away".
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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