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Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
82
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Posted - 2012.07.29 16:45:00 -
[511] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Dave stark wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Dave stark wrote:
what do you mean made worse, you just hit f1 and wait for the asteroid to pop. there's really nothing to micromanage.
Have you EVER used a mining ship in your life? on a daily basis. there's a difference between having to micromanage things and mining efficiently. So, when you get a roid with 50m3 left do you really let the cycle finish and roid pop before you start a new one? that depends if i know if it's got 50m3 left in it, i don't always have a survey scanner on my ship. and because i'm somewhat ocd i'd rather leave the 50m3 and start on a new roid to keep my lasers cycling at the same time.
If I notice a rock coming to an end I wait till I figure the cycle has the last of it and put them onto a new one, or just put drones on the rock to finish it. Senex Legio - Recruiter Team Member
CCP reduce the mining crystal to 1m3, or give me a good reason why they have to be so large. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
308
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 17:26:00 -
[512] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Noslen Nosilla wrote:For those of you that are saying just use T1 strip miners and you don't need crystals...really? I don't know one person in this game that doesn't want the best modules that he or she can make or buy whether it's prop mods, survey equipment, guns or yes strip miners. It also makes no sense that the supposed best yield ship in game has to downgrade to T1 strip miners and become worse than others....
actually with the changes that have just been posted in the 90 page thread in general discussion even a t1 strip hulk will outmine anything packing t2 crystals.
this is a good change, now it means we A) can save on crystals without sacrificing yield or having to use another ship and B) can absolutely **** asteroids when we do bother with t2 strips and have the support to reload them. i also think this bonus in yield can justify the extra logistics now.
a bit of context on that; a fully bonused maxed yield hulk with a 5% yield implant is pulling in just over 6k/cycle. [assuming i haven't done some thing dumb like hit the wrong excel cell again] Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1739
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Posted - 2012.07.29 17:34:00 -
[513] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:
it's mining ice... it's not like an ice roid will pop before you finish a cycle, it's not like you have to cut cycles short, ice mining is subject to less disruption than any other activity i can think of other than ship spinning.
if we were talking about jetcan mining mercoxit in hostile 0.0 space you might have a point. however as far as ice goes you can literally it f1, f2, and walk away for 30 mins and come back to a full mackinaw with very little chance that some one has bumped you out of range of the ice roid.
Ice miners bumping full fledged operation including IPO
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
308
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 17:36:00 -
[514] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Dave stark wrote:
it's mining ice... it's not like an ice roid will pop before you finish a cycle, it's not like you have to cut cycles short, ice mining is subject to less disruption than any other activity i can think of other than ship spinning.
if we were talking about jetcan mining mercoxit in hostile 0.0 space you might have a point. however as far as ice goes you can literally it f1, f2, and walk away for 30 mins and come back to a full mackinaw with very little chance that some one has bumped you out of range of the ice roid.
Ice miners bumping full fledged operation including IPO
they can't be everywhere at once, and not everywhere is empire space :) Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
189
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Posted - 2012.07.29 20:09:00 -
[515] - Quote
I can live with (and actually like) all the proposed mining ship changes except one: Mackinaw :: max targets = 4. This was fine when it was a dedicated ice miner.
Now, it's feels like a handicap in actual usage tests I have been doing on SiSi.
Can you please adjust the Mack so "max targets = 5" ? (6 would better.) |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
310
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 20:11:00 -
[516] - Quote
Urgg Boolean wrote:I can live with (and actually like) all the proposed mining ship changes except one: Mackinaw :: max targets = 4. This was fine when it was a dedicated ice miner.
Now, it's feels like a handicap in actual usage tests I have been doing on SiSi.
Can you please adjust the Mack so "max targets = 5" ? (6 would better.)
max targets is double what it can shoot at; same as the hulk in that regard. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1741
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Posted - 2012.07.29 20:13:00 -
[517] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Urgg Boolean wrote:I can live with (and actually like) all the proposed mining ship changes except one: Mackinaw :: max targets = 4. This was fine when it was a dedicated ice miner.
Now, it's feels like a handicap in actual usage tests I have been doing on SiSi.
Can you please adjust the Mack so "max targets = 5" ? (6 would better.) max targets is double what it can shoot at; same as the hulk in that regard.
So those with 1 laser will only be able to target 2 roids? It's really annoying and wasted time inducing. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
310
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 20:19:00 -
[518] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Dave stark wrote:Urgg Boolean wrote:I can live with (and actually like) all the proposed mining ship changes except one: Mackinaw :: max targets = 4. This was fine when it was a dedicated ice miner.
Now, it's feels like a handicap in actual usage tests I have been doing on SiSi.
Can you please adjust the Mack so "max targets = 5" ? (6 would better.) max targets is double what it can shoot at; same as the hulk in that regard. So those with 1 laser will only be able to target 2 roids? It's really annoying and wasted time inducing.
i didn't say it wasn't annoying. i was just saying it was consistent. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Herr Hammer Draken
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
54
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Posted - 2012.07.30 05:34:00 -
[519] - Quote
Unit757 wrote:ITT - lazy miners want max yield/easy mode hulk. I will repeat myself again, the vast majority of PVP ships CANNOT carry every single type of ammo they have avalible to them, with the exception of amarr ships. Quit you b-tching. Your just making yourselves look like idiots. CCP is giving you (and me, I guess, because I'll probably mine on the side when drunk), a god damn mining ship that can tank better then the vast majority of Heavy cruisers and battlecruisers I have ever flown! AND you still want more? Accept it, the hulk IS NOT suited for what you all want to do, use the one that is. And on top of all this, I hope to god that everyone here who is asking for more crystal space is deep in null-sec. Because if your in high sec, I hope the sentry guns malfunction and pop you on the undock, because you only have 4 ore types in HS, and each ship can hold enough for that. Quote:Please change the Hulks Exhumer 3% ore yield bonus into a 3% reduced cycle time and capacitor use (like how it works with ice mining). Without this change for many detailed reasons, using the Hulk over a Mackinaw does not make a whole lot of sense.
Yes that includes its described role too! You have orca bonuses for that, use it. Hulks bonuses are fine.
In response to this, it needs to be said that miners have to train skills to level 4 to use t2 mining crystals. Each type of ore has its own skill which has to be trained to level 4 in order to use the coresponding t2 crystal. Do combat ships have to train a weapons skill to level 4 for each amo type? NO. The barrier to entry in warpships is the cargo bay size. The barrier to entry for mining crystals is the time required to train each skill to level 4. Time NOT spent training war ship skills. That is even more important in the grand scheme of things. In order to do A well means not doing B well for a long period of time.
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Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
135
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Posted - 2012.07.30 06:04:00 -
[520] - Quote
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:It needs to be said that miners have to train skills to level 4 to use t2 mining crystals. Each type of ore has its own skill which has to be trained to level 4 in order to use the coresponding t2 crystal. Do combat ships have to train a weapons skill to level 4 for each amo type? NO. The barrier to entry in warpships is the cargo bay size. The barrier to entry for mining crystals is the time required to train each skill to level 4. Time NOT spent training war ship skills. That is even more important in the grand scheme of things. In order to do A well means not doing B well for a long period of time. This is a false equivlancy, once you train all of the ore processing types to level 4 you can effectivly use every tool to mine rocks in the game.
In order to use every tool to shoot people in the game you have to put WAY more SP into it.
Would you like me to show you the math? |
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Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
314
|
Posted - 2012.07.30 06:41:00 -
[521] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Herr Hammer Draken wrote:It needs to be said that miners have to train skills to level 4 to use t2 mining crystals. Each type of ore has its own skill which has to be trained to level 4 in order to use the coresponding t2 crystal. Do combat ships have to train a weapons skill to level 4 for each amo type? NO. The barrier to entry in warpships is the cargo bay size. The barrier to entry for mining crystals is the time required to train each skill to level 4. Time NOT spent training war ship skills. That is even more important in the grand scheme of things. In order to do A well means not doing B well for a long period of time. This is a false equivlancy, once you train all of the ore processing types to level 4 you can effectivly use every tool to mine rocks in the game. In order to use every tool to shoot people in the game you have to put WAY more SP into it. Would you like me to show you the math?
i actually agree with this. we might have more crystals than there are types of ammo for a given weapon, however there is a much wider array of weapons than there are mining modules. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Herr Hammer Draken
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
55
|
Posted - 2012.07.30 10:22:00 -
[522] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Herr Hammer Draken wrote:It needs to be said that miners have to train skills to level 4 to use t2 mining crystals. Each type of ore has its own skill which has to be trained to level 4 in order to use the coresponding t2 crystal. Do combat ships have to train a weapons skill to level 4 for each amo type? NO. The barrier to entry in warpships is the cargo bay size. The barrier to entry for mining crystals is the time required to train each skill to level 4. Time NOT spent training war ship skills. That is even more important in the grand scheme of things. In order to do A well means not doing B well for a long period of time. This is a false equivlancy, once you train all of the ore processing types to level 4 you can effectivly use every tool to mine rocks in the game. In order to use every tool to shoot people in the game you have to put WAY more SP into it. Would you like me to show you the math?
But one never uses every tool to shoot someone in the game. At most you use maybe 3 tools, a gun type, a missle type and smart bomb on the same ship. And mining ships are classified as medium sized ships same as cruisers in size class. Drones do not count as miners use them as well so both have to train drones. |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
82
|
Posted - 2012.07.30 13:03:00 -
[523] - Quote
I tried the small selection of crystals again last night, it is really going to suck if these things do not get downsized. Senex Legio - Recruiter Team Member
CCP reduce the mining crystal to 1m3, or give me a good reason why they have to be so large. |
Royaldo
Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk Amarr branch. Sev3rance
49
|
Posted - 2012.07.30 13:15:00 -
[524] - Quote
so im getting 69 ice pr hour on mackinaw og 72 og hulk. this is without the ice harvester duration rigs, which im sure will stack with the upgrades meaing on the hulk you wont get more. which means hulk stay the same but mackinaw will be slightly better. but its still a nerf compared to the 84 pr hour atm on tq. |
Unit757
North Point Cannabis Legionis
22
|
Posted - 2012.07.30 13:37:00 -
[525] - Quote
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:Sigras wrote:Herr Hammer Draken wrote:It needs to be said that miners have to train skills to level 4 to use t2 mining crystals. Each type of ore has its own skill which has to be trained to level 4 in order to use the coresponding t2 crystal. Do combat ships have to train a weapons skill to level 4 for each amo type? NO. The barrier to entry in warpships is the cargo bay size. The barrier to entry for mining crystals is the time required to train each skill to level 4. Time NOT spent training war ship skills. That is even more important in the grand scheme of things. In order to do A well means not doing B well for a long period of time. This is a false equivlancy, once you train all of the ore processing types to level 4 you can effectivly use every tool to mine rocks in the game. In order to use every tool to shoot people in the game you have to put WAY more SP into it. Would you like me to show you the math? But one never uses every tool to shoot someone in the game. At most you use maybe 3 tools, a gun type, a missle type and smart bomb on the same ship. And mining ships are classified as medium sized ships same as cruisers in size class. Drones do not count as miners use them as well so both have to train drones.
You clearly don't understand how a combat ship works, do you?
Edit - oh, and just training just one type of medium weapon takes probably longer then it does for you to train all yourcprocessimg skills to 4. We have to train most of our skills to 5 to use t2 ;) |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
1100
|
Posted - 2012.07.30 13:45:00 -
[526] - Quote
Noslen Nosilla wrote:So the cargohold on all mining barges is 350m3 except the Covetor which still has the 500m3 cargohold. all the exhumers have a 350m3 cargohold now. T1 Crystals 15m3 now T2 Crystals 25m3 now You still can't fit more than 13 T2 crystals in the Hulk cargohold because you have to have the empty space of one crystal to change a crystal out. Hmmm.
Barges/Exhumers should have 350 x # of turrets as their cargo bay. It makes the most sense and puts the ships on an even footing.
A lot of hi-sec hulks currently carry 35 T2 crystals, plus 15 T1 crystals, which was about 1800 m3 of space. With the smaller new T2 crystals, that means a 3-strip hulk needs about 950 m3 in cargo/crystal storage.
Not to mention that if you like to be organized, you were carrying your crystals in small/medium standard containers. One per type. So there needs to be enough space on the Hulk to carry (4) or (5) medium containers plus enough room to swap out a crystal. Because the auto-reload function on the strip miner had a very bad habit of grabbing a brand new crystal to use, when you already had a partially used crystal available in the cargo hold.
If you had (5) medium containers, you were using up 1625 m3 of space to carry (3) used and (4) new crystals per ore type.
So yes, the Hulk still needs to end up at around 1400-1500 m3 of cargo space. Or cut the T1 crystal size to 10 m3 and cut the T2 crystal size to 20 m3. |
Noslen Nosilla
Federal Logistics Initiative Conglomerate
10
|
Posted - 2012.07.30 14:06:00 -
[527] - Quote
OK just got off SISI @ 2012.07.27 14:05...new build......NO CHANGES TO THE MINING SHIPS.
Let the flames begin. |
Charlie Jacobson
23
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Posted - 2012.07.30 14:07:00 -
[528] - Quote
I couldn't find the new mining frigate on the test server. Are they keeping it a surprise until the patch goes live? |
Noslen Nosilla
Federal Logistics Initiative Conglomerate
10
|
Posted - 2012.07.30 14:09:00 -
[529] - Quote
Charlie Jacobson wrote:I couldn't find the new mining frigate on the test server. Are they keeping it a surprise until the patch goes live?
the new mining frigate is a fall/winter release...when CCP does the rebalance to the racial "mining" frigates. |
Charlie Jacobson
23
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Posted - 2012.07.30 14:15:00 -
[530] - Quote
Noslen Nosilla wrote:Charlie Jacobson wrote:I couldn't find the new mining frigate on the test server. Are they keeping it a surprise until the patch goes live? the new mining frigate is a fall/winter release...when CCP does the rebalance to the racial "mining" frigates.
D'oh! Okay, thanks. I must've misunderstood the announcements :( |
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ugh zug
24
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Posted - 2012.07.30 20:47:00 -
[531] - Quote
CCP, while you're at the overhaul of the mining ships please consider making adjustments to the orca. a team of mining ships would have no problem filling the current orcas storage in no time at all, and if you don't have a hauler it makes for a very annoying interruption of mining bonuses.
consider reducing the cargo, and corp storage bays, and increasing the ore hold significantly.
consider allowing input to the ore hold from fleet members.
an extra high slot for a salvager, or probe launcher.
orca/roq defenses could use some buffs to go inline with the changes to the other mining vessels. Want me to shut up?-á Send me ISK and i'll stop giving suggestions to CCP that make sense. Remove content from my post, 15 bil Remove my content from a thread I have started 30bil. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1755
|
Posted - 2012.07.30 21:06:00 -
[532] - Quote
ugh zug wrote:CCP, while you're at the overhaul of the mining ships please consider making adjustments to the orca. a team of mining ships would have no problem filling the current orcas storage in no time at all, and if you don't have a hauler it makes for a very annoying interruption of mining bonuses.
consider reducing the cargo, and corp storage bays, and increasing the ore hold significantly.
consider allowing input to the ore hold from fleet members.
an extra high slot for a salvager, or probe launcher.
orca/roq defenses could use some buffs to go inline with the changes to the other mining vessels.
Reduce the corp hold ONLY and ONLY IF the ore cargo becomes shared.
I already almost fill the full corp hold in one shot as is, if they reduce it I won't even be able to stuff all the minerals that come from the ships before I dragged it to the ore hold.
As for Orca defenses, they are not so bad, they only suck if you go full mega expand. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
86
|
Posted - 2012.07.30 23:14:00 -
[533] - Quote
Seems like the bonus's are broken for the rorq on sisi. Senex Legio - Recruiter Team Member
CCP reduce the mining crystal to 1m3, or give me a good reason why they have to be so large. |
Aurelius Valentius
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
142
|
Posted - 2012.07.31 00:29:00 -
[534] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:CCP reduce the mining crystal to 1m3, or give me a good reason why they have to be so large.
Reason 1. Just because.
Reason 2. Because you would be happy, happiness makes CCP unhappy, therefore they decide to make you unhappy to be happy.
Reason 3. Why not?
Reason 4. Because logic and geometry are the foundations of western culture and being Icelandic, Thor didn't allow for them to be that size.
Reason 5. PONIES!!!
Reason 6. It would make sense to have them be smaller, but that leads to the counter result of Reason 2 and so cannot be allowed under any circumstances.
Reason 7. The British East India Company says so.
Reason 8. MORE PONIES!!!!
Reason 9. See Reasons 1-8.
Reason 10. LINK My PG is too small, my CPU insufficient, my crystals are too big and my cargo too small, I used to be named after a green guy but now it's more like family guy... what am I?
ORE = DCU II + EHP Stucture = Anti-Ganking Fix and choice = yield or tank. |
Herr Hammer Draken
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
57
|
Posted - 2012.07.31 06:29:00 -
[535] - Quote
Unit757 wrote:Herr Hammer Draken wrote:Sigras wrote:Herr Hammer Draken wrote:It needs to be said that miners have to train skills to level 4 to use t2 mining crystals. Each type of ore has its own skill which has to be trained to level 4 in order to use the coresponding t2 crystal. Do combat ships have to train a weapons skill to level 4 for each amo type? NO. The barrier to entry in warpships is the cargo bay size. The barrier to entry for mining crystals is the time required to train each skill to level 4. Time NOT spent training war ship skills. That is even more important in the grand scheme of things. In order to do A well means not doing B well for a long period of time. This is a false equivlancy, once you train all of the ore processing types to level 4 you can effectivly use every tool to mine rocks in the game. In order to use every tool to shoot people in the game you have to put WAY more SP into it. Would you like me to show you the math? But one never uses every tool to shoot someone in the game. At most you use maybe 3 tools, a gun type, a missle type and smart bomb on the same ship. And mining ships are classified as medium sized ships same as cruisers in size class. Drones do not count as miners use them as well so both have to train drones. You clearly don't understand how a combat ship works, do you? Edit - oh, and just training just one type of medium weapon takes probably longer then it does for you to train all yourcprocessimg skills to 4. We have to train most of our skills to 5 to use t2 ;)
I have been training both side by side after doing both I can say for sure there are quite a bit more skills involved and longer time durations for mining than there are for weapons. My weapon skills are way ahead of my mining skills and I alternate between them. One for weapons one for mining. Back and forth since day one. I can mount T2 weapons on my cruisers, But I can not mount any mining crystals yet. I just now am able to use T2 strips. I have 72 more skill levels to train to be able to mount all of the mining crystals. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
135
|
Posted - 2012.07.31 07:56:00 -
[536] - Quote
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:Unit757 wrote:
Edit - oh, and just training just one type of medium weapon takes probably longer then it does for you to train all yourcprocessimg skills to 4. We have to train most of our skills to 5 to use t2 ;)
I have been training both side by side after doing both I can say for sure there are quite a bit more skills involved and longer time durations for mining than there are for weapons. My weapon skills are way ahead of my mining skills and I alternate between them. One for weapons one for mining. Back and forth since day one. I can mount T2 weapons on my cruisers, But I can not mount any mining crystals yet. I just now am able to use T2 strips. I have 72 more skill levels to train to be able to mount all of the mining crystals. Im going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume youre entirely perception/willpower specced otherwise you're doing it wrong.
To fit T2 strips, all it requires is mining 5 which is a rank 1 skill; if you compare all of the ores below kernite with small guns, kernite to spodumain to medium guns and ABC ores with large guns, you come out with 13 days 22 hours for all of the "small gun" ores (Veldspar to Omber) 17 days 22 hours more for all of the "medium gun" ores (Kernite to Spodumain) 22 days 5 hours more for all of the "large gun" ores (ABC) 32 days 9 hours more for all of the support skills to 5 (mining upgrades and Astrogeology)
Do you really want me to compare these numbers to training all of the gun skills?
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Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
321
|
Posted - 2012.07.31 07:58:00 -
[537] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Do you really want me to compare these numbers to training all of the gun skills?
at a glance that looks like an equal training time for one type of large weapon without any support skills... Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
135
|
Posted - 2012.07.31 08:11:00 -
[538] - Quote
just about, actually slightly shorter for mining, but remember, once you train all of the mining crystals, you can use all of the crystals in the game. Once you train projectiles, you can use 1/3 of the guns in the game |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
321
|
Posted - 2012.07.31 08:13:00 -
[539] - Quote
Sigras wrote:just about, actually slightly shorter for mining, but remember, once you train all of the mining crystals, you can use all of the crystals in the game. Once you train projectiles, you can use 1/3 of the guns in the game
and not very well without decent support skills, although i guess we could equate those support skills to astrogeology, although that's one skill vs many. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Noslen Nosilla
Federal Logistics Initiative Conglomerate
10
|
Posted - 2012.07.31 11:07:00 -
[540] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Sigras wrote:just about, actually slightly shorter for mining, but remember, once you train all of the mining crystals, you can use all of the crystals in the game. Once you train projectiles, you can use 1/3 of the guns in the game and not very well without decent support skills, although i guess we could equate those support skills to astrogeology, although that's one skill vs many.
Basically we could say then that you have trained up to use the Strip Miner class of Gun. |
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