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Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
298
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 15:20:00 -
[1] - Quote
title says all I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Sarmatiko
750
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 15:35:00 -
[2] - Quote
First raw stats from static data: http://pastebin.com/frBc2muR
Let The EFTing Begin!
ps: as alway this may not be the final stats. Just raw because you want it "here and now"
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Sheynan
Lighting the blight
26
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 16:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
that said, is an Inferno 1.2 version already available somewhere of EFT/Pyfa whatever program ? |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
298
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 18:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
i love those changes... my mining char has a 35000m3 ore bay on her mack with those stats and bonuses.. ME GUSTA I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
298
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 18:30:00 -
[5] - Quote
hulk bonuses are unchanged so (so it's mining yield is unchanged) so we can figure out all the mining rates relative to a hulk
these calculations are based on Exhumers V/Barge V char, for mining rock not ice - this is without MLUs
Ship - Strips * modifiers = effective # of strip mining modules
Hulk - 3 strips * 1.15 (barge V) * 1.15 (exhumers V) = 3.9675 Mackinaw - 2 strips * 1.50 (role bonus) * 1.05 (exhumers V) = 3.15 Skiff - 1 strips * 3 (role bonus) * 1.05 = 3.15
Covetor - 3 strips * 1.2 (barge V) = 3.6 Retriever - 2 strips * 1.5 (role bonus) = 3 strips Procurer - 1 strips * 3 (role bonus) = 3 strips
or % relative to a hulk
Mackinaw: 79.4% Skiff: 79.4%
Covetor: 90.7% Retriever: 75.6% Procurer: 75.6% I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
298
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 19:16:00 -
[6] - Quote
Feedback: i think all barges could use a PG boost. I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
581
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 19:39:00 -
[7] - Quote
Denidil wrote:Feedback: i think all barges could use a PG boost.
Why? Fiddling with what this enables now (rigs used for tank instead of expanders) and I can get about 16k out of a hulk now, that'll go to 30k or so post-patch. Ganking that will require three tornados. Is that not good enough for you? . |
Soon Shin
Caucasian Culture Club Transmission Lost
104
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 19:46:00 -
[8] - Quote
LOOK at the Rookie Ships changes! |
JamesCLK
Lone Star Exploration Lone Star Partners
189
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 20:17:00 -
[9] - Quote
Soon Shin wrote:LOOK at the Rookie Ships changes! Dat ECM Ibis... |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
277
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 20:20:00 -
[10] - Quote
so you can't actually test these changes.. they are all data mined....? everything works the same way it did on sisi. [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG] |
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Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
298
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 20:25:00 -
[11] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Denidil wrote:Feedback: i think all barges could use a PG boost. Why? Fiddling with what this enables now (rigs used for tank instead of expanders) and I can get about 16k out of a hulk now, that'll go to 30k or so post-patch. Ganking that will require three tornados. Is that not good enough for you?
i didn't say a large increase.
[edit] note: the skiff got an increase and it was enough to make the new possible fits to make me **** my pants [j/k] I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
209
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 20:37:00 -
[12] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Denidil wrote:Feedback: i think all barges could use a PG boost. Why? Fiddling with what this enables now (rigs used for tank instead of expanders) and I can get about 16k out of a hulk now, that'll go to 30k or so post-patch. Ganking that will require three tornados. Is that not good enough for you?
does this mean there's going to be an increase on hulkageddon payouts in order to compensate for more/bigger ships needed to gank hulks and keep it profitable for the gankers?
or, are the high sec miners safe now? Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
298
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 20:39:00 -
[13] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:corestwo wrote:Denidil wrote:Feedback: i think all barges could use a PG boost. Why? Fiddling with what this enables now (rigs used for tank instead of expanders) and I can get about 16k out of a hulk now, that'll go to 30k or so post-patch. Ganking that will require three tornados. Is that not good enough for you? does this mean there's going to be an increase on hulkageddon payouts in order to compensate for more/bigger ships needed to gank hulks and keep it profitable for the gankers? or, are the high sec miners safe now?
a skiff can get a 84k EHP tank and get the effective output of 3.99 strip miners ( a hulk with 2 MLUs is 5 effective )
it can get a 107k ehp tank if it gives up an MLU for a DCU
I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
277
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 20:42:00 -
[14] - Quote
Anyone know what "eliteBonusBarge" 1, 2, and 3 is? [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG] |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
209
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 20:43:00 -
[15] - Quote
Denidil wrote:Dave stark wrote:corestwo wrote:Denidil wrote:Feedback: i think all barges could use a PG boost. Why? Fiddling with what this enables now (rigs used for tank instead of expanders) and I can get about 16k out of a hulk now, that'll go to 30k or so post-patch. Ganking that will require three tornados. Is that not good enough for you? does this mean there's going to be an increase on hulkageddon payouts in order to compensate for more/bigger ships needed to gank hulks and keep it profitable for the gankers? or, are the high sec miners safe now? a skiff can get a 84k EHP tank and get the effective output of 3.99 strip miners ( a hulk with 2 MLUs is 5 effective ) it can get a 107k ehp tank if it gives up an MLU for a DCU
if goons are paying enough, you'll still have people ganking a ship with that much ehp. never underestimate goon spending power. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
277
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 20:44:00 -
[16] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:corestwo wrote:Denidil wrote:Feedback: i think all barges could use a PG boost. Why? Fiddling with what this enables now (rigs used for tank instead of expanders) and I can get about 16k out of a hulk now, that'll go to 30k or so post-patch. Ganking that will require three tornados. Is that not good enough for you? does this mean there's going to be an increase on hulkageddon payouts in order to compensate for more/bigger ships needed to gank hulks and keep it profitable for the gankers? or, are the high sec miners safe now?
nothing is every 100% safe from gank unless it's parked in an NPC station. [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG] |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
209
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 20:47:00 -
[17] - Quote
Barbara Nichole wrote:Dave stark wrote:corestwo wrote:Denidil wrote:Feedback: i think all barges could use a PG boost. Why? Fiddling with what this enables now (rigs used for tank instead of expanders) and I can get about 16k out of a hulk now, that'll go to 30k or so post-patch. Ganking that will require three tornados. Is that not good enough for you? does this mean there's going to be an increase on hulkageddon payouts in order to compensate for more/bigger ships needed to gank hulks and keep it profitable for the gankers? or, are the high sec miners safe now? nothing is every 100% safe from gank unless it's parked in an NPC station.
very true, but there's no doubt ganking miners is currently as popular as it is because of goon payouts.
i feel i've somewhat derailed the thread, sorry. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
277
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 20:52:00 -
[18] - Quote
so we're going from a 5% bonus to ice miner duration reduction to 1% on the Mack... does the new rig make up for this loss? [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG] |
MotherMoon
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1009
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 20:56:00 -
[19] - Quote
JamesCLK wrote:Soon Shin wrote:LOOK at the Rookie Ships changes! Dat ECM Ibis...
red versus blue just got much more interesting..... Why dust 514 is on Console and not PCBattle field 3 sales Xbox 360: 2.2 million PlayStation 3: 1.5 million PC: 500,000http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg |
Unit757
North Point Cannabis Legionis
9
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 20:56:00 -
[20] - Quote
There doesn't seem to be any reason to fly a Mackinaw, when the skiff brings in the same yield, with more tank?
IMO, the skiff and Mackinaw seem WAY to AFK friendly.
Interesting changes none the less, I'm willing to bet that people still won't tank them though. |
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MotherMoon
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1009
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 20:57:00 -
[21] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:corestwo wrote:Denidil wrote:Feedback: i think all barges could use a PG boost. Why? Fiddling with what this enables now (rigs used for tank instead of expanders) and I can get about 16k out of a hulk now, that'll go to 30k or so post-patch. Ganking that will require three tornados. Is that not good enough for you? does this mean there's going to be an increase on hulkageddon payouts in order to compensate for more/bigger ships needed to gank hulks and keep it profitable for the gankers? or, are the high sec miners safe now?
doesn't matter the hulk won't be much stronger. The less you can mine the more safe you are. Why dust 514 is on Console and not PCBattle field 3 sales Xbox 360: 2.2 million PlayStation 3: 1.5 million PC: 500,000http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
298
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 21:02:00 -
[22] - Quote
Unit757 wrote:There doesn't seem to be any reason to fly a Mackinaw, when the skiff brings in the same yield, with more tank?
IMO, the skiff and Mackinaw seem WAY to AFK friendly.
Interesting changes none the less, I'm willing to bet that people still won't tank them though.
DAT ORE HOLD
mackinaw 37500 ore hold (25k * 1.5 for barge V) I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Xyrrath Actault
Confederation Navy Research Epsilon Fleet
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 21:02:00 -
[23] - Quote
This game becomes AFK and Bot friendly once again. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
298
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 21:03:00 -
[24] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote:Dave stark wrote:corestwo wrote:Denidil wrote:Feedback: i think all barges could use a PG boost. Why? Fiddling with what this enables now (rigs used for tank instead of expanders) and I can get about 16k out of a hulk now, that'll go to 30k or so post-patch. Ganking that will require three tornados. Is that not good enough for you? does this mean there's going to be an increase on hulkageddon payouts in order to compensate for more/bigger ships needed to gank hulks and keep it profitable for the gankers? or, are the high sec miners safe now? doesn't matter the hulk won't be much stronger. The less you can mine the more safe you are.
2 MLU mack/skiff > 0 MLU hulk (3.99 vs 3.9675) 2 MLU hulk > 2 mlu mack/skiff (5 vs 3.99) I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
277
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 21:05:00 -
[25] - Quote
Unit757 wrote:There doesn't seem to be any reason to fly a Mackinaw, when the skiff brings in the same yield, with more tank?
IMO, the skiff and Mackinaw seem WAY to AFK friendly.
Interesting changes none the less, I'm willing to bet that people still won't tank them though. don't much care about AFK friendliness as long as they aren't bot friendly. AFK means they are sitting idle in the belt. [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG] |
Unit757
North Point Cannabis Legionis
9
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 21:06:00 -
[26] - Quote
Denidil wrote:Unit757 wrote:There doesn't seem to be any reason to fly a Mackinaw, when the skiff brings in the same yield, with more tank?
IMO, the skiff and Mackinaw seem WAY to AFK friendly.
Interesting changes none the less, I'm willing to bet that people still won't tank them though. DAT ORE HOLD mackinaw 37500 ore hold (25k * 1.5 for barge V)
True enough.
Still seems way to excesive, I can somewhat understand the buff in defensive abilities, but the huge ore holds and tank is just inviting bots back.
|
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
277
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 21:07:00 -
[27] - Quote
Xyrrath Actault wrote:This game becomes AFK and Bot friendly once again. hogwash! [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG] |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
209
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 21:10:00 -
[28] - Quote
Unit757 wrote:Denidil wrote:Unit757 wrote:There doesn't seem to be any reason to fly a Mackinaw, when the skiff brings in the same yield, with more tank?
IMO, the skiff and Mackinaw seem WAY to AFK friendly.
Interesting changes none the less, I'm willing to bet that people still won't tank them though. DAT ORE HOLD mackinaw 37500 ore hold (25k * 1.5 for barge V) True enough. Still seems way to excesive, I can somewhat understand the buff in defensive abilities, but the huge ore holds and tank is just inviting bots back.
implying ccp aren't actively banning bots. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
298
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 21:21:00 -
[29] - Quote
Unit757 wrote:Denidil wrote:Unit757 wrote:There doesn't seem to be any reason to fly a Mackinaw, when the skiff brings in the same yield, with more tank?
IMO, the skiff and Mackinaw seem WAY to AFK friendly.
Interesting changes none the less, I'm willing to bet that people still won't tank them though. DAT ORE HOLD mackinaw 37500 ore hold (25k * 1.5 for barge V) True enough. Still seems way to excesive, I can somewhat understand the buff in defensive abilities, but the huge ore holds and tank is just inviting bots back.
they've been banning bots constantly.. you ban one another one shows up
the huge ore hold and the EHP is a nod to the fact taht mining is boring and that they're too easy to gank. post changes my mining char can be up mining while i'm fighting on my other char and i barely have to look. I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8699
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 21:35:00 -
[30] - Quote
For the time being, until someone creates a preview-data version for EFT or PyFa, the Hulk changes are fairly easy to simulate.
Fit it as you normally would. Once done, remove one lowslot that doesn't affect tanking and put a T1 800mm plate in the slot. Likewise, remove one midslot that doesn't affect tanking and put a MSEII in the slot. If you've already fitted an MSEII, replace it with a meta LSE. Also, ditch any cargo expansion, since it won't make any useful difference. Et voil+á, updated stats! GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
298
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 21:37:00 -
[31] - Quote
Tippia wrote:For the time being, until someone creates a preview-data version for EFT or PyFa, the Hulk changes are fairly easy to simulate. Fit it as you normally would. Once done, remove one lowslot that doesn't affect tanking and put a T1 800mm plate in the slot. Likewise, remove one midslot that doesn't affect tanking and put a MSEII in the slot. If you've already fitted an MSEII, replace it with a meta LSE. Also, ditch any cargo expansion, since it won't make any useful difference. Et voil+á, updated stats!
i've partially modified pyfa (it uses a sql lite database) - i've changed the cpu, pg, slot layout and inherent hit points values. i have not played with the bonuses. I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Comic Mischief
851
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 23:36:00 -
[32] - Quote
One interesting note is the Skiff still has one strip. So you will drain a roid quite fast. In high sec many roids would not last even one cycle. On the other hand, you will not need as many crystals. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
87
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 23:40:00 -
[33] - Quote
"Halada's Mining Guide" wrote: We will do the math again, for the heck of it. I assume you went from a GÇ£maxed CovetorGÇ¥ to a Hulk in the following equation: 360 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 * 1.15 * 1.15 * 1.05 * 1.05 * 1.05^2 * 1.75 = 1819.75 m3/cycle
Please boost the storage of the Hulk's Ore bay to 11000 because two perfect cycle sets results in 10918.5 m3 of ore. 1819.75 * 6.
7500 is good for 4 individual laser cycles.
Also, where does the mining drone output go?
Thanks! Drox |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Comic Mischief
851
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 23:44:00 -
[34] - Quote
Also at the bottom are rigs for Mercoxit and ice mining. The barges not longer are specialized for those mining roles; you make them specialized by adding a rig.
A skiff rigged for ice mining is a huge step up in tank from the existing Mack. I predict a drop in ice product prices. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8708
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 23:47:00 -
[35] - Quote
Droxlyn wrote:Please boost the storage of the Hulk's Ore bay to 11000 because two perfect cycle sets results in 10918.5 m3 of ore. 1819.75 * 6. Good thing that you have a fleet at hand to take that ore off your hand, and that 4 individual laser cycles is more than enough time, no matter how you cut it, to dump the ore either into a can or into a nearby storage vessel.
The Hulk is a fleet mining ship. They assume that you will be handing the ore over to someone else, so very little local storage is actually needed. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
87
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 23:54:00 -
[36] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Droxlyn wrote:Please boost the storage of the Hulk's Ore bay to 11000 because two perfect cycle sets results in 10918.5 m3 of ore. 1819.75 * 6. Good thing that you have a fleet at hand to take that ore off your hand, and that 4 individual laser cycles is more than enough time, no matter how you cut it, to dump the ore either into a can or into a nearby storage vessel. The Hulk is a fleet mining ship. They assume that you will be handing the ore over to someone else, so very little local storage is actually needed.
My desire is to do it every-other-cycle, not every-cycle. I'd like a little extra time for potty breaks and forum browsing.
Drox |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8710
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 00:00:00 -
[37] - Quote
Droxlyn wrote:My desire is to do it every-other-cycle, not every-cycle. I'd like a little extra time for potty breaks and forum browsing. Then you should be using a Mackinaw or a Retriever. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
87
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 00:10:00 -
[38] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Then you should be using a Mackinaw or a Retriever. I like your advice, I'll reship to go ****. (Does pee get xxxxed out?) If they're going to be mean on the ore hold, go with 5500 or jump up to 11000, 7500 is just silly.
Even if you GIMP your hulk as much as you can with maxxed skills, your yield is 3905.5/set so, you still need 8000 m3 to get two cycles with no fleet bonuses.
So, I guess that explains the 500m3 hold. Since two cycles unaided with no MLUs will fill the entire ship after you make some room.
Drox |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1384
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 00:15:00 -
[39] - Quote
Droxlyn wrote:Tippia wrote:Then you should be using a Mackinaw or a Retriever. I like your advice, I'll reship to go ****. (Does pee get xxxxed out?) If they're going to be mean on the ore hold, go with 5500 or jump up to 11000, 7500 is just silly. Even if you GIMP your hulk as much as you can with maxxed skills, your yield is 3905.5/set so, you still need 8000 m3 to get two cycles with no fleet bonuses. So, I guess that explains the 500m3 hold. Since two cycles unaided with no MLUs will fill the entire ship after you make some room. Drox
perhaps the developers don't intend on encouraging AFK gameplay? a rogue goon |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
210
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 00:17:00 -
[40] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Droxlyn wrote:Tippia wrote:Then you should be using a Mackinaw or a Retriever. I like your advice, I'll reship to go ****. (Does pee get xxxxed out?) If they're going to be mean on the ore hold, go with 5500 or jump up to 11000, 7500 is just silly. Even if you GIMP your hulk as much as you can with maxxed skills, your yield is 3905.5/set so, you still need 8000 m3 to get two cycles with no fleet bonuses. So, I guess that explains the 500m3 hold. Since two cycles unaided with no MLUs will fill the entire ship after you make some room. Drox perhaps the developers don't intend on encouraging AFK gameplay? *looks at the mackinaw* no, they'd never do that. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8710
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 00:18:00 -
[41] - Quote
Droxlyn wrote:I like your advice, I'll reship to go ****. You can also just dock up. I'm sure your fleet can live without you for a minute or three.
It's quite simple: the Hulk will no longer be the best mining ship. It will only be the best for its specific purpose: high-activity fleet mining, with Orca or Rorqual support and a good set of transports to bring the ore back to station. If you want to pause, you'll have to pause GÇö AFK mining is no longer in the Hulk's repertoire. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
299
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 00:33:00 -
[42] - Quote
Tippia wrote:
It's quite simple: the Hulk will no longer be the best mining ship.
exactly. working as intended.
people just can't' deal with the new reality that is coming. that's fine - whiny max-yielders will keep the suiciders happy, and people like me who will just stick my mining char into a mack will be happy.
I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
87
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 00:39:00 -
[43] - Quote
The Mackinaw, I think, when fitted for yield in a fleet, will fill up in 8 cycles. The Skiff can fill up its hold in 4 cycles.
Yields are estimated at: Hulk: 5458.76 Mackinaw: 4664.55 (3 MLU2s, I don't know if this fits or not.) Skiff: 4333.99
Drox |
Javajunky
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
29
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 01:06:00 -
[44] - Quote
Hulk needs to have 2100m3 cargo....
I get all the other changes, but seriously you're not give the Hulk enough storage to be able to carry a full set of Mining Crystals?
I mean I really I don't think that is too too much to ask is it?
Java
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8712
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 01:08:00 -
[45] - Quote
Javajunky wrote:I get all the other changes, but seriously you're not give the Hulk enough storage to be able to carry a full set of Mining Crystals? Put them in the Orca. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
299
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 01:17:00 -
[46] - Quote
Droxlyn wrote:The Mackinaw, I think, when fitted for yield in a fleet, will fill up in 8 cycles. The Skiff can fill up its hold in 4 cycles.
Yields are estimated at: Hulk: 5458.76 Mackinaw: 4664.55 (3 MLU2s, I don't know if this fits or not.) Skiff: 4333.99
Drox
3 mlu2s does fit with an implant
are there dimishing returns on MLUs? I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Jaenen
Recettear Acquisitions LTD
1
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 01:26:00 -
[47] - Quote
If those numbers go live, I predict Procurers and Skiffs spiking in price hilariously.
I actually think the revised numbers - perhaps especially on the Hulk and Covetor - are for the best. It's requiring a miner to compromise.
Max yield? Something you can AFK with? Something bloody hard to gank? pick one. That said, I know for a fact I'm going to find the small Hulk cargo bay, and thus the inability to carry a lot of spare crystals, hell of annoying, but it makes sense for what they appear to be going for. The logic seems to be that if you're in a Hulk, you're gonna have support from a haulerbitch of some description, who CAN carry some spare crystals. Pain in the ass? Absolutely. Something that can be worked around? Oh yes.
Believe me, I mine a LOT, with and without friends along... I think that once we the miners have had a little time to get used to things, we'll be fine.
And man, we'll be collecting a ton of tears from the suicide gankers who suddenly need something with muscle to pop Procs and Skiffs. Their tears shall be delicious. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
582
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 01:35:00 -
[48] - Quote
Denidil wrote:whiny max-yielders will keep the suiciders happy
Quote: [Hulk, Tanked Max Yield] Ice Harvester Upgrade II Ice Harvester Upgrade II
EM Ward Amplifier II Thermic Dissipation Amplifier II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Processor Overclocking Unit II
This fit has 16,893 EHP right now and of course maximizes your yield. With the changes to its base HP, it will have 26,727 EHP, while still achieving max yield.
It's a bit silly, really - miners get to have their cake and eat it. I think a better solution would have been to model the mining barges after all the other ORE ships - heavily biased towards structure, maybe heavily constrain their CPU as well, so that you can either pick a large buffer with a Damage Control and Reinforced Bulkhead, OR you can maximize your yield with mining laser upgrades, but not both. . |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
576
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 04:43:00 -
[49] - Quote
^ That is a nice fit, but its only a fleet fit. Would be a nice fit too with orca support, but sometimes hard to always have an orca there. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
95
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 05:01:00 -
[50] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Javajunky wrote:I get all the other changes, but seriously you're not give the Hulk enough storage to be able to carry a full set of Mining Crystals? Put them in the Orca. It's late, and I'm tired, so --
You normally have good ideas & suggestions, Tippia, but for this one? No.
/on sarcasm Oh, look. My crystal broke. Oh, wait, the Orca(s) is/are away dropping ore. Guess my Fleet will have to suffer while I mine with a gimped yield. Oh, wait, the Orca is out of range [doing 'activity A']. I can't move without going out of roid range. /off sarcasm
I really tire of these immature 16 year old arguments. "Put it in the Orca" is not the answer to every mining question. Maybe my fleet doesn't use Orca's. Maybe they use Rorquals at 80km out. This is a sandbox - and I should be able to carry a full set of replacement crystals in my specialized mining ship just like my uber fighting frigate/cruiser/battleship/dread can carry a good number of replacement crystals.
Of course, no one has mentioned yet if they've reduced the size of those blasted things yet - and if they do, then 500m3 is fine.
+1 to Javajunky's suggestion. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
|
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
301
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 05:04:00 -
[51] - Quote
Infinite Force wrote:
Of course, no one has mentioned yet if they've reduced the size of those blasted things yet - and if they do, then 500m3 is fine.
they should just reduce their size, it is the best solution. I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Amenis Shem
1ST German Space Force Ewoks
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 06:53:00 -
[52] - Quote
Could someone please run the numbers for Ice Mining with a Hulk and compare that to the current Mackinaw yield? |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
79
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 09:57:00 -
[53] - Quote
Denidil wrote:Infinite Force wrote:
Of course, no one has mentioned yet if they've reduced the size of those blasted things yet - and if they do, then 500m3 is fine.
they should just reduce their size, it is the best solution.
Or add a specialist bay which they implemented but don't use nearly enough. The barges should have an ore bay, a crystal bay and a tiny cargo bay (what do they actually need one for?).
|
P3po
Treasures Collectors Solar Citizens
13
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 11:18:00 -
[54] - Quote
I have dreamed a day where i can cary full set of crystals + 1 or 2 crystals spare if one gets destroyed .... guess i will have to wait few more years.
I think this guy "carry it in orca" never mined with 5-6 hulks at once, and have no idea how annoying it is with the crystals. |
chaosjj
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 12:36:00 -
[55] - Quote
New mining barges/Exhumers are on Singularity. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
213
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 12:46:00 -
[56] - Quote
chaosjj wrote:New mining barges/Exhumers are on Singularity. oh? they weren't yesterday!
*skips off to sisi* Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Ru3en
Lacking In Diplomacy RED.OverLord
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 12:48:00 -
[57] - Quote
question:
Patchnotes says: "Only one mining or ice harvesting rig can be fitted at a time." Its on line 396 here: Patchnotes
so you cant fit 2 MLU or 2 IHU anymore? Or does this only affect the 2 new Upgrades? |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
213
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 12:50:00 -
[58] - Quote
Ru3en wrote:question: Patchnotes says: "Only one mining or ice harvesting rig can be fitted at a time." Its on line 396 here: Patchnotesso you cant fit 2 MLU or 2 IHU anymore? Or does this only affect the 2 new Upgrades?
"rig" therefore that'll be the rigs not the laser upgrades. (rig slots not low slots). at least that's how i interpret that wording.
however that means you can't stack rigs, nor can you mix rigs, it would seem. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Ru3en
Lacking In Diplomacy RED.OverLord
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 12:52:00 -
[59] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Ru3en wrote:question: Patchnotes says: "Only one mining or ice harvesting rig can be fitted at a time." Its on line 396 here: Patchnotesso you cant fit 2 MLU or 2 IHU anymore? Or does this only affect the 2 new Upgrades? "rig" therefore that'll be the rigs not the laser upgrades. (rig slots not low slots). at least that's how i interpret that wording. however that means you can't stack rigs, nor can you mix rigs, it would seem.
thanks for that.. was confused |
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Catholic School for Boys A Point In Space
26
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 12:58:00 -
[60] - Quote
does the "new" hulk still have a bonus for ice mining? i strongly feel it should loose that bonus. otherwise i do not see the point of the mackinaw beeing the dedicated ice mining ship.
+1 for the hulk stop beeing the ultimate choice. |
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Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
215
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 13:01:00 -
[61] - Quote
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:does the "new" hulk still have a bonus for ice mining? i strongly feel it should loose that bonus. otherwise i do not see the point of the mackinaw beeing the dedicated ice mining ship.
+1 for the hulk stop beeing the ultimate choice.
the ice bonus has been removed from the mackinaw (it now has cycle bonus to bring it in to line with the exhumer at 0 exhumer skill) and then the hulk gets more yield bonuses to ore and a bigger cycle bonus for ice per exhumer level.
at exhumer 5 the hulk will mine everything faster than any other boat assuming the same boosts. (mlus, rigs etc) however the hulk has a woeful lack of space in comparison to the mackinaw and skiff. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Catholic School for Boys A Point In Space
26
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 13:52:00 -
[62] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:does the "new" hulk still have a bonus for ice mining? i strongly feel it should loose that bonus. otherwise i do not see the point of the mackinaw beeing the dedicated ice mining ship.
+1 for the hulk stop beeing the ultimate choice. the ice bonus has been removed from the mackinaw (it now has cycle bonus to bring it in to line with the exhumer at 0 exhumer skill) and then the hulk gets more yield bonuses to ore and a bigger cycle bonus for ice per exhumer level. at exhumer 5 the hulk will mine everything faster than any other boat assuming the same boosts. (mlus, rigs etc) however the hulk has a woeful lack of space in comparison to the mackinaw and skiff.
thx for the info.
but i dont know wether to like this approach or not. it surely is a way. projecting the choice between tank, yield and self sufficency into the exhumers. this may work for the barges but T2 is all about specialisation. the proposed changes make exhumers a plain upgrade of barges, rather then beeing a way to specialise in something. i dont think logistic obstacles (small orehold, little space for crystals) is enough to make the other two exhumers worthwhile.
|
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
215
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 13:57:00 -
[63] - Quote
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:Dave stark wrote:Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:does the "new" hulk still have a bonus for ice mining? i strongly feel it should loose that bonus. otherwise i do not see the point of the mackinaw beeing the dedicated ice mining ship.
+1 for the hulk stop beeing the ultimate choice. the ice bonus has been removed from the mackinaw (it now has cycle bonus to bring it in to line with the exhumer at 0 exhumer skill) and then the hulk gets more yield bonuses to ore and a bigger cycle bonus for ice per exhumer level. at exhumer 5 the hulk will mine everything faster than any other boat assuming the same boosts. (mlus, rigs etc) however the hulk has a woeful lack of space in comparison to the mackinaw and skiff. thx for the info. but i dont know wether to like this approach or not. it surely is a way. projecting the choice between tank, yield and self sufficency into the exhumers. this may work for the barges but T2 is all about specialisation. the proposed changes make exhumers a plain upgrade of barges, rather then beeing a way to specialise in something. i dont think logistic obstacles (small orehold, little space for crystals) is enough to make the other two exhumers worthwhile.
will it make you feel better if i tell you a 2x mlu mackinaw mines more than a hulk with no mlus?
they all have their uses now, it just comes down to how you mine. if you have an orca alt there's no reason to step out of your hulk unless you're paranoid about gankers in which case a skiff is for you. however if you're not a paranoid orca alt type player then the mack is your new baby.
i was pretty much training an orca alt to go orca/hulk but looking at the size of the new ore bays i think even with max skilled chars 2x mackinaws will be more efficient for me in terms of isk/hour without having to juggle jetcanning on 2 chars at once. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Catholic School for Boys A Point In Space
26
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 14:46:00 -
[64] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:
will it make you feel better if i tell you a 2x mlu mackinaw mines more than a hulk with no mlus?
they all have their uses now, it just comes down to how you mine. if you have an orca alt there's no reason to step out of your hulk unless you're paranoid about gankers in which case a skiff is for you. however if you're not a paranoid orca alt type player then the mack is your new baby.
i was pretty much training an orca alt to go orca/hulk but looking at the size of the new ore bays i think even with max skilled chars 2x mackinaws will be more efficient for me in terms of isk/hour without having to juggle jetcanning on 2 chars at once.
i never felt the urge to get myself an orca alt. mining ops are more fun, when multiple humans are involved. ^^ all i want to see is more variety in mining ship usage. call me an idealist, but in my little, perfect eve all ships are useful and have a purpose. i will take a look at sisi as soon as possible to get some first hand info. lets see how this turns out.
but why do you need jet-can mining when you have an orca alt? you can dump the ore directly into the corp holds and move it to the ore hold. at least i think that's what i think orca pilots do... |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
215
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 14:51:00 -
[65] - Quote
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:Dave stark wrote:
will it make you feel better if i tell you a 2x mlu mackinaw mines more than a hulk with no mlus?
they all have their uses now, it just comes down to how you mine. if you have an orca alt there's no reason to step out of your hulk unless you're paranoid about gankers in which case a skiff is for you. however if you're not a paranoid orca alt type player then the mack is your new baby.
i was pretty much training an orca alt to go orca/hulk but looking at the size of the new ore bays i think even with max skilled chars 2x mackinaws will be more efficient for me in terms of isk/hour without having to juggle jetcanning on 2 chars at once.
i never felt the urge to get myself an orca alt. mining ops are more fun, when multiple humans are involved. ^^ all i want to see is more variety in mining ship usage. call me an idealist, but in my little, perfect eve all ships are useful and have a purpose. i will take a look at sisi as soon as possible to get some first hand info. lets see how this turns out. but why do you need jet-can mining when you have an orca alt? you can dump the ore directly into the corp holds and move it to the ore hold. at least i think that's what i think orca pilots do...
yeah that's what orcas are for, basically mobile jetcans that give boosts. the thing is, the mackinaw gives you an option not to have to jetcan, at the cost of yield. just like the skiff gives you the option of being less gankable, at the cost of yield.
all the new barges do is give you a reward for mining less. they all have a purpose, it's just no longer "i mine x ore better" it's now "i do job y better" Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
79
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 14:57:00 -
[66] - Quote
Javajunky wrote:Hulk needs to have 2100m3 cargo....
I get all the other changes, but seriously you're not give the Hulk enough storage to be able to carry a full set of Mining Crystals?
I mean I really I don't think that is too too much to ask is it?
Java
The small hold is fine when you are just hitting the ABC's, but if you are going after everything then this makes it difficult to carry a full selection of crystals. I will not know til the changes go into effect, but I suspect I will still use my hulks and jet can mine for max yield. With no orca/rorq parked in the anom, as it is not such a great idea when you are in null sec to put extra assets at risk.
I think a simple solution for this would be for CCP to reduce the volume mining crystals take up, making it possible to keep a good selection of crystals in the hold. I know when I am hitting all the rocks, the crystals currently use up about 2k of hold space. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8724
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 15:03:00 -
[67] - Quote
Infinite Force wrote:Oh, look. My crystal broke. Oh, wait, the Orca(s) is/are away dropping ore. Why is the Orca moving? Why aren't your haulers doing that job? If your Orca is also your hauler, then maybe it's a good thing that you take a little pause before it returns.
Quote:I really tire of these immature 16 year old arguments. "Put it in the Orca" is not the answer to every mining question. It is if you're talking about a fleet mining ship that is meant to work with Orca/Rorqual support. You can have 5 crystals ready to go in the caro hold. If you need more variety, spread the task out among the fleet GÇö player A takes ore 1; player B takes ore 2 etc. If you still run out and need something else, ask someone to bring it to you.
The point remains: you're talking about the fleet mining ship, that will have support from haulers and Ore collection ships. Cargo space is not something the individual mining ship need to be worried about. What you should complain about is the meagre space in the supposedly-solo Mack and Retriever GÇö they aren't meant for this kind of busy fleet work, but rather to do it alone, and they can only carry three crystals.
GǪand these are the buckets and spades at your disposal. Use them to build a sand castle. GÇ£SandboxGÇ¥ doesn't mean you can do everything that you fancy GÇö it means that there are tools available for you to make use of to shape your experience. Those tools will have limitations, and part of shaping your experience is to work with or work around those limitations. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Comic Mischief
851
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 15:13:00 -
[68] - Quote
The current "new" Hulk with a 7.5K ore hold can easily handle one cycle, but not two. If it was 7K that would still be true. Put that extra 500 cu m into the hold, for crystals. Its convenient to grab extras from the orca and store them locally. Then a crystal change is just a right click on the miner, rather than finding the correct slot on the orca and dragging it over, all the while your miners are getting out of sync.
So I support a 7k ore hold and a 1K main hold for the Hulk. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Catholic School for Boys A Point In Space
26
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 15:14:00 -
[69] - Quote
Tippia wrote:
The point remains: you're talking about the fleet mining ship, that will have support from haulers and Ore collection ships. Cargo space is not something the individual mining ship need to be worried about. What you should complain about is the meagre space in the supposedly-solo Mack and Retriever GÇö they aren't meant for this kind of busy fleet work, but rather for doing it alone, and they can only carry three crystals.
[
good point. as i told, i haven't checked the numbers, but if this is true, well we need a fix there. self-reliance and -sufficiency should include the ability to bring your on variety of crystals. |
Sovai Elaaren
KABS Deep Recon Unit
30
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 16:05:00 -
[70] - Quote
I think the changes are great, overall.
I think the point about carrying spare crystals is valid, however. In large null-sec belts, there's no guarantee that you're going to be close to a hauler of any sort. Making it so you can only carry basically 1 spare set of crystals adds pointless logistics. It's already forced into being a fleet ship by it's small ore hold (which is good), reducing it's efficiency by forcing dock-ups or forcing your orca to be warping around the belt to the various miners it's supporting doesn't seem to add value.
The other point to this is that since this is a fleet ship, it would stand to reason that you might have a greater need for spare crystals because you're going to be mining the belts out faster, thus creating a need to switch asteroid types more often.
I think, as previous posters have pointed out, reducing the size of crystals is a good trade; the cargo bay can stay the same size and remain useless for storing ore, but you can maybe carry enough crystals to mine 3-4 different types of asteroids. I don't think you should be able to carry spares for every ore type, but a bit of flexibility would be nice. |
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Annette Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 16:08:00 -
[71] - Quote
I for one as a low/mid skill miner am really happy with these changes. I'm also poor so cannot afford to have an alt haul for me.
I do love now that you have the options;
Max Yield - Covetor / Hulk (Fleet ops / Min maxing solo multibox gangs) Max Tank - Procurer / Skiff ( WH / Deep space dangerous ops) Max Storage - Retriever / Mac ( Solo Miners / Social players / forum trolls / corp recruiters)
|
Annette Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 16:10:00 -
[72] - Quote
There is one elephant in the room though.
if you're mining in a Skiff for example... you're getting 3xyield of 1 strip miner.. only using one crystal?
how does the extra ore from the 2 extra crystals in the hulk work out agains the extra cost of 2 more crystals? or is that just a non-issue? |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
216
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 16:17:00 -
[73] - Quote
Annette Aumer wrote:There is one elephant in the room though.
if you're mining in a Skiff for example... you're getting 3xyield of 1 strip miner.. only using one crystal?
how does the extra ore from the 2 extra crystals in the hulk work out agains the extra cost of 2 more crystals? or is that just a non-issue?
the hulk's 3 strips mine more than the skiff's 1 strip due to exhumer bonuses. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Annette Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 16:19:00 -
[74] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Annette Aumer wrote:There is one elephant in the room though.
if you're mining in a Skiff for example... you're getting 3xyield of 1 strip miner.. only using one crystal?
how does the extra ore from the 2 extra crystals in the hulk work out agains the extra cost of 2 more crystals? or is that just a non-issue? the hulk's 3 strips mine more than the skiff's 1 strip due to exhumer bonuses.
I'm aware of that. what i'm asking is does the extra crystal consumption weigh correctly with the extra amount of yield?
IE I have zero idea on crystal costs. i only use strip miner I's at the moment.
So i'm not sure if having to use 3 crystals instead of one is a big hit to isk flow. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1684
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 16:33:00 -
[75] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Javajunky wrote:I get all the other changes, but seriously you're not give the Hulk enough storage to be able to carry a full set of Mining Crystals? Put them in the Orca.
Terrible advice (not unexpected though, you are so biased).
Big mining ops involve multiple corporations, it's the whole reason why they had to revert the last Orca changes to let simple fleet members be able and store minerals in the Orca hold.
Therefore all the non Orca corp members won't be able to take crystals out of the Orca.
As for the subsequent "use haulers" advice, it's terribad as well, and shows you never attended a large mining op. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
95
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 16:40:00 -
[76] - Quote
Annette Aumer wrote:I'm aware of that. what i'm asking is does the extra crystal consumption weigh correctly with the extra amount of yield?
IE I have zero idea on crystal costs. i only use strip miner I's at the moment.
So i'm not sure if having to use 3 crystals instead of one is a big hit to isk flow. Unless changes have been made, it's my understanding that all crystal damage calculations occur at the beginning of a cycle. It really makes no sense whatsoever to program in a special "X" multiplier for the other barges.
So, in theory, your single crystal on a Skiff could last as long as 3 Crystals on a Hulk. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
217
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 16:58:00 -
[77] - Quote
Infinite Force wrote:Annette Aumer wrote:I'm aware of that. what i'm asking is does the extra crystal consumption weigh correctly with the extra amount of yield?
IE I have zero idea on crystal costs. i only use strip miner I's at the moment.
So i'm not sure if having to use 3 crystals instead of one is a big hit to isk flow. Unless changes have been made, it's my understanding that all crystal damage calculations occur at the beginning of a cycle. It really makes no sense whatsoever to program in a special "X" multiplier for the other barges. So, in theory, your single crystal on a Skiff could last as long as 3 Crystals on a Hulk.
it's calculated at the end of a cycle, not the beginning.
and yes, you will go through crystals faster in a hulk but crystals are less than 150k each, they're dirt cheap. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8724
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 17:11:00 -
[78] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Big mining ops involve multiple corporations, it's the whole reason why they had to revert the last Orca changes to let simple fleet members be able and store minerals in the Orca hold.
Therefore all the non Orca corp members won't be able to take crystals out of the Orca. GǪsoooGǪ did they revert the change or not? Your GǣthereforeGǥ doesn't make sense. Oh, and even if you use multiple corporations, you can still use Orcas, so you need to be a bit more precise if you want to say something is terrible that you then go on to explain is entirely possible.
Quote:As for the subsequent "use haulers" advice, it's terribad as well GǪas was his insinuation that you're screwed if you can't, personally, carry along 2k m-¦ worth of crystals, so he'd just be trading one awful strategy for another and not be worse off.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1686
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 17:40:00 -
[79] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Big mining ops involve multiple corporations, it's the whole reason why they had to revert the last Orca changes to let simple fleet members be able and store minerals in the Orca hold.
Therefore all the non Orca corp members won't be able to take crystals out of the Orca. GǪsoooGǪ did they revert the change or not?
Yes they did.
Tippia wrote: Your GÇ£thereforeGÇ¥ doesn't make sense. Oh, and even if you use multiple corporations, you can still use Orcas, so you need to be a bit more precise if you want to say something is terrible that you then go on to explain is entirely possible.
You would understand it in a split second like the others in this thread if you stopped forum warrioring for a second and started playing what you comment about.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8724
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 18:00:00 -
[80] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Yes they did. So in other words, it's not a problem GÇö put the crystals in the Orca. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
|
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
217
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 18:03:00 -
[81] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Yes they did. So in other words, it's not a problem GÇö put the crystals in the Orca.
except only the pilot can get stuff out of the corp hangar unless you have roles in the corp... trust me, it's a problem i have daily. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
88
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 18:05:00 -
[82] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Yes they did. So in other words, it's not a problem GÇö put the crystals in the Orca.
That doesn't help the people in other corps in your fleet. It takes 3k m3 to carry 4 of each crystal. Double that if you have to have both T1s and T2s (for the Orca you claim should be carrying it.)
Too bad the tractor beam can't be a repulsor beam to send a can to the mining vessel. (Or too bad CCP can't give the mining ships utility High-slots for tractor beams, cloaks, and probe launchers.)
Drox |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8728
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 18:31:00 -
[83] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:except only the pilot can get stuff out of the corp hangar unless you have roles in the corp... trust me, it's a problem i have daily. GǪso they didn't fix the problem. Look, I can go off and test it if people want to, but I'd prefer to just ask. It's just that the answers are pointing in pretty much every direction right now.
Droxlyn wrote:That doesn't help the people in other corps in your fleet. So organise your fleet better. Have each corp form an Orca-based group. Use shuttle services if Orca pilots are that few and far between (which seems highly unlikely in a corp with any kind of mining ambitions). Alternatively (or additionally), assign roles GÇö who does what, and let people pick up what they need before you begin. It's not like there aren't ways to hand off equipment to surrounding ships. The whole notion that every ship needs to carry every crystal is pretty silly to begin with, and keeping the Hulks fed with charges is just something to plan the fleet around.
Quote:It takes 3k m3 to carry 4 of each crystal. Double that if you have to have both T1s and T2s (for the Orca you claim should be carrying it.) RiightGǪ 16+ù30m-¦+ù4 = 1,920m-¦ for the T1s, 16+ù50m-¦+ù4 = 3,200 for the T2s = 5120 in totalGǪ that's pretty much not a single number correct (not to mention a pretty poor mix of crystals). It's not so much me who's claiming the Orca should carry it GÇö it's the express purpose of the design change for the Hulk: to be used in a fleet where a separate ship takes care of the ore. The Hulk is just meant to sit and suck up rocks and immediately spit them out again. The same ship that takes care of the ore will be available to feed the Hulk with whatever crystals it needs.
That said, giving the Hulk a utility high would actually be interesting for a number of purposes. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
217
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 18:34:00 -
[84] - Quote
big ass red letters "you don't have the required role to view". i'm in the same corp. i can put stuff in, but not take it out. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
88
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 18:41:00 -
[85] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Quote:It takes 3k m3 to carry 4 of each crystal. Double that if you have to have both T1s and T2s (for the Orca you claim should be carrying it.) RiightGǪ 16+ù30m-¦+ù4 = 1,920m-¦ for the T1s, 16+ù50m-¦+ù4 = 3,200 for the T2s = 5120 in totalGǪ that's pretty much not a single number correct (not to mention a pretty poor mix of crystals). It's not so much me who's claiming the Orca should carry it GÇö it's the express purpose of the design change for the Hulk: to be used in a fleet where a separate ship takes care of the ore. The Hulk is just meant to sit and suck up rocks and immediately spit them out again. The same ship that takes care of the ore will be available to feed the Hulk with whatever crystals it needs. That said, giving the Hulk a utility high would actually be interesting for a number of purposes.
So I forgot that T1s are smaller. Also, if you're mining Mercoxit, you aren't going to be mining anything else, so it's 15 crystals or 1 crystal that you care about. 15 * 4 * 50 = 3000. I'm glad that if you need to shlep about with T1s that it isn't as bad as I made it out to be, but still.
A proper mining operation has: 1 Rat tank ship if needed. 1 Orca sitting around pulling in jetcans and providing boosts. If there's a Rorqual involved, he's hiding next to a Deathstar POS compressing ore and providing bonuses, the orca just mentioned turns into: Another Orca snagging ore from the stationary one. Everybody else is in a Hulk. If there are enough hulks, you wind up with two Orcas hauling with little down-time. There is nobody left to pass around crystals or have an Orca/corp, etc. Orcas have an insane tractor beam range, you may as well ask the Hulk to warp back to the station when they need crystals that they don't have on them.
So, um, who is supposed to get the crystals from the Orca to the Hulks?
Drox |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
80
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 18:41:00 -
[86] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:big ass red letters "you don't have the required role to view". i'm in the same corp. i can put stuff in, but not take it out.
So your corp don't trust you enough to access even 1 hangar, isn't that your problem?
|
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
80
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 18:43:00 -
[87] - Quote
Droxlyn wrote:Tippia wrote:Quote:It takes 3k m3 to carry 4 of each crystal. Double that if you have to have both T1s and T2s (for the Orca you claim should be carrying it.) RiightGǪ 16+ù30m-¦+ù4 = 1,920m-¦ for the T1s, 16+ù50m-¦+ù4 = 3,200 for the T2s = 5120 in totalGǪ that's pretty much not a single number correct (not to mention a pretty poor mix of crystals). It's not so much me who's claiming the Orca should carry it GÇö it's the express purpose of the design change for the Hulk: to be used in a fleet where a separate ship takes care of the ore. The Hulk is just meant to sit and suck up rocks and immediately spit them out again. The same ship that takes care of the ore will be available to feed the Hulk with whatever crystals it needs. That said, giving the Hulk a utility high would actually be interesting for a number of purposes. So I forgot that T1s are smaller. Also, if you're mining Mercoxit, you aren't going to be mining anything else, so it's 15 crystals or 1 crystal that you care about. 15 * 4 * 50 = 3000. I'm glad that if you need to shlep about with T1s that it isn't as bad as I made it out to be, but still. A proper mining operation has: 1 Rat tank ship if needed. 1 Orca sitting around pulling in jetcans and providing boosts. If there's a Rorqual involved, he's hiding next to a Deathstar POS compressing ore and providing bonuses, the orca just mentioned turns into: Another Orca snagging ore from the stationary one. Everybody else is in a Hulk. If there are enough hulks, you wind up with two Orcas hauling with little down-time. There is nobody left to pass around crystals or have an Orca/corp, etc. Orcas have an insane tractor beam range, you may as well ask the Hulk to warp back to the station when they need crystals that they don't have on them. So, um, who is supposed to get the crystals from the Orca to the Hulks? Drox
Why does this mining op not just have different ships mining different ores instead of everyone mining all of them? Would that maybe require organisation?
|
Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
88
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 18:49:00 -
[88] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Why does this mining op not just have different ships mining different ores instead of everyone mining all of them? Would that maybe require organisation?
Because they are organized by physical location along the length of the belt or the miner didn't know what he was going to mine until he got there.
They should give all of the barges 3k crystal ammo bays and be done with it. (Or shrink the hell out of these 3.68m cube crystals or 12 foot/side for the non-metric folks.)
Drox |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8728
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 18:51:00 -
[89] - Quote
Droxlyn wrote:So, um, who is supposed to get the crystals from the Orca to the Hulks? From that list? Use the ratter as a shuttle GÇö it's a combat ship and should be fitting an MWD anyway.
As for the whole GÇ£they need crystals that they don't have on themGÇ¥, that just comes down to planning. Pick one or two ores each, depending on how common they are in the belt. Your 500m-¦ hold can now hold at least a full replacement set for each pick, plus spares, giving you plenty time to have that shuttle come by with replacements if you manage to burn out all three strips in one go.
edit: Even if you don't know what to mine until you get there, again: the Orca can carry the crystals. Pick what you need from the pile and get to work. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
217
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 19:09:00 -
[90] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Dave stark wrote:big ass red letters "you don't have the required role to view". i'm in the same corp. i can put stuff in, but not take it out. So your corp don't trust you enough to access even 1 hangar, isn't that your problem?
afaik it's a pretty new corp and the ceos are still sorting things out *shrug* when in space i can access everything as the pilot, so it's not a big issue but it's inconvenient. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
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Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
95
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 19:15:00 -
[91] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪas was his insinuation that you're screwed if you can't, personally, carry along 2k m-¦ worth of crystals, so he'd just be trading one awful strategy for another and not be worse off. You are referring to me I think, so correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I tell it as I see it.
It is my opinion, that the cargo holds do need to be bigger - across the board if they're not going to reduce mining crystal size.
The Cargohold of a Barge needs to be able to hold 3 types of Ore crystals with 1 spare. The Cargohold of an Exhumer needs to be able to hold 5 types of Ore crystals with 2 spares. (see the T1 / T2 advantage progression there?)
So, let's compare: T1 crystals are 30 m3 each, T2 are 50 m3.
We'll use T2 crystal math (since they are bigger).
Cargohold Size = T2 Crystal Size * # of Strips * # of crystals (active + spares) * # of ore types
Procurer / Skiff : CH range is : 300 - 750 m3 - T1: 2 crystals / 3 ores: 50 * 1 * 2 * 3 = 300 m3 - T2: 3 crystals / 5 ores: 50 * 1 * 3 * 5 = 750 m3
Retriever / Mackinaw : CH range: 600 - 1500 m3 - T1: 2 crystals / 3 ores: 50 * 2 * 2 * 3 = 600 m3 - T2: 3 crystals / 5 ores: 50 * 2 * 3 * 5 = 1500 m3
Covetor / Hulk : CH range: 900 - 2250 m3 - T1: 2 crystals / 3 ores: 50 * 3 * 2 * 3 = 900 m3 - T2: 3 crystals / 5 ores: 50 * 3 * 3 * 5 = 2250 m3
Just like using T2 crystals in fighting ships - the only difference is that it's a "mining ship" so their crystals seem to need to be 30 - 50 times larger.
Either reduce crystal size or increase the cargoholds - it's that simple. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
218
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 19:18:00 -
[92] - Quote
Infinite Force wrote:Either reduce crystal size or increase the cargoholds - it's that simple.
don't even need to do that, just adjust the split between ore and cargo. the hulk has "wasted" space in the ore bay. the bay can't hold a second cycle so why not move that space in to the ore bay to hold crystals? Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Athos Maulerant
Deep Space Holdings Inc
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 19:23:00 -
[93] - Quote
Crystals increase yield, therefore there needs to be a disadvantage to combat the advantage they provide. Somebody already said they are cheap, so that means the storage issue is it, since cost is not. Don't want to worry about where to put backup crystals? Use T1 miners or head back to the base to pick up new crystals for your T2. Easy peasy. |
Unit757
North Point Cannabis Legionis
9
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 19:24:00 -
[94] - Quote
So its an issue, because you cant carry enough of every god damn crystal in the game? Cool, I can't carry every single type of hybrid charge in the game, and have sufficient quantity. The solution is extremely simple, miners must adapt to new method because of the mining changes. PVPers have had tons of changes they have to adapt to, you can deal with just one change.
Solution is simple, dedicate each ship to one type of ore. A hulk can carry 9 reserve crystals in its cargo hold, PLUS it already will have 3 loaded. A machinaw, can carry 6 reserve crystals, plus 2 pre-loaded.
If you want to claim it as a problem, don't try to justify it because the only reason your whining is because you cant carry 6 crystals for every ore in the game. Hulk = FLEET BARGE. Note the word FLEET, meaning more then one ship. Focus on one type per ship. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
218
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 19:24:00 -
[95] - Quote
Athos Maulerant wrote:Crystals increase yield, therefore there needs to be a disadvantage to combat the advantage they provide. Somebody already said they are cheap, so that means the storage issue is it, since cost is not. Don't want to worry about where to put backup crystals? Use T1 miners or head back to the base to pick up new crystals for your T2. Easy peasy.
there already is a drawback, they use more cap. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Athos Maulerant
Deep Space Holdings Inc
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 19:31:00 -
[96] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Athos Maulerant wrote:Crystals increase yield, therefore there needs to be a disadvantage to combat the advantage they provide. Somebody already said they are cheap, so that means the storage issue is it, since cost is not. Don't want to worry about where to put backup crystals? Use T1 miners or head back to the base to pick up new crystals for your T2. Easy peasy. there already is a drawback, they use more cap.
And they require skills to use. I think the changes are great. I guess I'm just not that change resistant. |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
79
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 19:32:00 -
[97] - Quote
I love the new ore bay, finally a place for ore where it does not get mixed up with my hold of crystals, but when mining multiple ores to strip a belt/grav (especially if its a small grav where a lot of the rocks vanish after just a few cycles) you need a far bigger selection than the 500m3 hold can carry, and no I don't want to shuttle back and forth to a station/pos/orca/rorq to change up my crystals each time you suck a roid dry and need to change over.
Simply reduce the size of these crystals, can you imagine how annoying it would be for combat if you could only carry 1 or 2 types of lenses for your lasers? |
Unit757
North Point Cannabis Legionis
9
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 19:36:00 -
[98] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:I love the new ore bay, finally a place for ore where it does not get mixed up with my hold of crystals, but when mining multiple ores to strip a belt/grav (especially if its a small grav where a lot of the rocks vanish after just a few cycles) you need a far bigger selection than the 500m3 hold can carry, and no I don't want to shuttle back and forth to a station/pos/orca/rorq to change up my crystals each time you suck a roid dry and need to change over.
Simply reduce the size of these crystals, can you imagine how annoying it would be for combat if you could only carry 1 or 2 types of lenses for your lasers?
I can't speak for everyone else, but I usually only carry conflag and sorch, and MAYBE a faction MF. So, it isn't to annoying |
Arctos Canis
Ice Wolves
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 19:38:00 -
[99] - Quote
Hello. I have seen some people asking about ICE aspects. I did some personal calculations in TQ and SISI today just for myself. But since i noticed nobody is even mentioning it in this thread i will share it so that the people who did not do that would at least have raw impression how much worse it will be,
Curent Mach. - 2 x IHU + 3% yeti + maxed out orca boost. Has an interval of 49 seconds per ice block. 49/1
After pache
Mach - 3 x IHU + 3% yeti + maxed out orca boost + ICE RIG. 60/1 skiff - 2 x IHU + 3% yeti + maxed out orca boost + ICE RIG. 66/1 Hulk - 2 x IHU + 3% yeti + maxed out orca boost + ICE RIG. 55.33/1
So as u can see if u are still using machs u are loosing out around 22% of your profit per same time spent mining |
Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
88
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 19:49:00 -
[100] - Quote
When I mine, I hate having crystals in my cargo hold cluttering things up (since they don't stack after use), so I keep them all in the orca. |
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Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
95
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 19:53:00 -
[101] - Quote
Unit757 wrote:So its an issue, because you cant carry enough of every god damn crystal in the game? Cool, I can't carry every single type of hybrid charge in the game, and have sufficient quantity. The solution is extremely simple, miners must adapt to new method because of the mining changes. PVPers have had tons of changes they have to adapt to, you can deal with just one change.
Solution is simple, dedicate each ship to one type of ore. A hulk can carry 9 reserve crystals in its cargo hold, PLUS it already will have 3 loaded. A machinaw, can carry 6 reserve crystals, plus 2 pre-loaded.
If you want to claim it as a problem, don't try to justify it because the only reason your whining is because you cant carry 6 crystals for every ore in the game. Hulk = FLEET BARGE. Note the word FLEET, meaning more then one ship. Focus on one type per ship. Why is it that everyone automatically assumes a Min / Max mentality.
No one is advocating or even suggesting that every single crystal be carried - just a subset - if you don't understand what a subset is, it's time to head back to math & statistics.
Just because "Fleet" suddenly becomes the type of ship role, does not suddenly mean that it must only be used in a certain way. If this is the case, I can't wait for all the whining when the combat ships are revamped.
Increase the cargohold or reduce crystal size. Simple. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
95
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 19:55:00 -
[102] - Quote
Unit757 wrote:Jake Rivers wrote:I love the new ore bay, finally a place for ore where it does not get mixed up with my hold of crystals, but when mining multiple ores to strip a belt/grav (especially if its a small grav where a lot of the rocks vanish after just a few cycles) you need a far bigger selection than the 500m3 hold can carry, and no I don't want to shuttle back and forth to a station/pos/orca/rorq to change up my crystals each time you suck a roid dry and need to change over.
Simply reduce the size of these crystals, can you imagine how annoying it would be for combat if you could only carry 1 or 2 types of lenses for your lasers? I can't speak for everyone else, but I usually only carry conflag and sorch, and MAYBE a faction MF. So, it isn't to annoying So do I, well - at least Scorch & Faction MF.
Let's increase our frequency crystal size by a factor of 50. Now let's compare apples to apples. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
218
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 20:00:00 -
[103] - Quote
Infinite Force wrote:Increase the cargohold or reduce crystal size. Simple. again, not the answer.
correctly distributing the 8k space between cargo and ore bay is the answer. the ore bay has wasted space. if you're meant to be in a fleet there's no reason to have an ore bay larger than 1 max bonused cycle. a max bonused cycle is no where near 7.5k yield. hence move some of that space back to the regular cargo hold and let us carry the crystals we need. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Stefan1978
Buddel und Schuerf - Mining Corp
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 20:06:00 -
[104] - Quote
New Hulk: With 2xMedium Optimized Cargohold Rig (was a bit more than 100ISK !!!) we became >1000m-¦ for crystals?
Are the DEV a Miner? Do you want to "verarschen" the Miners?
I hope it will be a rollback for the STUPID and rediculous update of Hulk.
Or give back ISK for Cargohold rig!!!
Sorry for Language, but that is not the Right Way if it will be less than 2000m-¦ |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1686
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 20:08:00 -
[105] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Yes they did. So in other words, it's not a problem GÇö put the crystals in the Orca.
So in other words the patch restored the ability to *deposit* ore but non corp fleet members still cannot take anything out.
I am all for putting Hulks in a fleet role but hey, a *fleet* is a *fleet* not a *corp only* fleet. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Soon Shin
Caucasian Culture Club Transmission Lost
104
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 20:10:00 -
[106] - Quote
Arctos Canis wrote:Hello. I have seen some people asking about ICE aspects. I did some personal calculations in TQ and SISI today just for myself. But since i noticed nobody is even mentioning it in this thread i will share it so that the people who did not do that would at least have raw impression how much worse it will be,
Curent Mach. - 2 x IHU + 3% yeti + maxed out orca boost. Has an interval of 49 seconds per ice block. 49/1
After pache
Mach - 3 x IHU + 3% yeti + maxed out orca boost + ICE RIG. 60/1 skiff - 2 x IHU + 3% yeti + maxed out orca boost + ICE RIG. 66/1 Hulk - 2 x IHU + 3% yeti + maxed out orca boost + ICE RIG. 55.33/1
So as u can see if u are still using machs u are loosing out around 22% of your profit per same time spent mining
Did you also remember to add in the Ice harvestor rig? |
Unit757
North Point Cannabis Legionis
10
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 20:19:00 -
[107] - Quote
Infinite Force wrote:Unit757 wrote:So its an issue, because you cant carry enough of every god damn crystal in the game? Cool, I can't carry every single type of hybrid charge in the game, and have sufficient quantity. The solution is extremely simple, miners must adapt to new method because of the mining changes. PVPers have had tons of changes they have to adapt to, you can deal with just one change.
Solution is simple, dedicate each ship to one type of ore. A hulk can carry 9 reserve crystals in its cargo hold, PLUS it already will have 3 loaded. A machinaw, can carry 6 reserve crystals, plus 2 pre-loaded.
If you want to claim it as a problem, don't try to justify it because the only reason your whining is because you cant carry 6 crystals for every ore in the game. Hulk = FLEET BARGE. Note the word FLEET, meaning more then one ship. Focus on one type per ship. Why is it that everyone automatically assumes a Min / Max mentality. No one is advocating or even suggesting that every single crystal be carried - just a subset - if you don't understand what a subset is, it's time to head back to math & statistics. Just because "Fleet" suddenly becomes the type of ship role, does not suddenly mean that it must only be used in a certain way. If this is the case, I can't wait for all the whining when the combat ships are revamped. Increase the cargohold or reduce crystal size. Simple.
Don't you worry, I finished school a while ago, I have no need to go back ;)
And that's pretty much what the ship revamp is, it is removing tiers, and giving ships roles, much like the Condor is going to have the ROLE of a T1 interceptor.
As for the crystals, when you think about it, they could use a size reduction, especially if you compare that a large conflag crystal takes up 1m3, and a mining crystal takes up 50, it does seem a little excessive. |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
96
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 20:22:00 -
[108] - Quote
Unit757 wrote:Don't you worry, I finished school a while ago, I have no need to go back ;)
And that's pretty much what the ship revamp is, it is removing tiers, and giving ships roles, much like the Condor is going to have the ROLE of a T1 interceptor. Yup, completely understand.
Unit757 wrote:As for the crystals, when you think about it, they could use a size reduction, especially if you compare that a large conflag crystal takes up 1m3, and a mining crystal takes up 50, it does seem a little excessive. And that's all that's being asked for from the mining side.
I think that the miners are liking the changes overall (and they are good initial changes) - except the cargohold / crystal size issue. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Arctos Canis
Ice Wolves
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 20:28:00 -
[109] - Quote
Soon Shin wrote:Arctos Canis wrote:Hello. I have seen some people asking about ICE aspects. I did some personal calculations in TQ and SISI today just for myself. But since i noticed nobody is even mentioning it in this thread i will share it so that the people who did not do that would at least have raw impression how much worse it will be,
Curent Mach. - 2 x IHU + 3% yeti + maxed out orca boost. Has an interval of 49 seconds per ice block. 49/1
After pache
Mach - 3 x IHU + 3% yeti + maxed out orca boost + ICE RIG. 60/1 skiff - 2 x IHU + 3% yeti + maxed out orca boost + ICE RIG. 66/1 Hulk - 2 x IHU + 3% yeti + maxed out orca boost + ICE RIG. 55.33/1
So as u can see if u are still using machs u are loosing out around 22% of your profit per same time spent mining Did you also remember to add in the Ice harvestor rig?
Yes it says + ICE RIG :)
|
Hypercake Mix
Magical Rainbow Bakery
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 20:56:00 -
[110] - Quote
So... what about the Drone Bays/Bandwidth? |
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Gimboid
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 21:04:00 -
[111] - Quote
HULK The Hulk is a mining barge with superb mining yield.
Mining Barge skill bonus per level: 3% bonus to Strip Miner yield 7.5% bonus to all shield resistances
Exhumer skill bonus per level: 3% bonus to Strip Miner yield 4% reduction in Ice Harvester duration
MACKINAW The Mackinaw is an exhumer with an extensive ore bay.
Mining Barge skill bonus per level: 10% bonus to ore hold capacity 7.5% bonus to all shield resistances
Exhumer skill bonus per level: 1% bonus to Strip Miner yield 1% reduction in Ice Harvester duration
Role Bonus: 50% bonus to Strip Miner yield 33.33% reduction in Ice Harvester Duration and capacitor use
SKIFF The Skiff is an exhumer with exceptional defensive capabilities.
Mining Barge skill bonus per level: 5% bonus to shield hit points 7.5% bonus to all shield resistances
Exhumer skill bonus per level: 1% bonus to Strip Miner yield 1% reduction in Ice Harvester duration
Role Bonus: 200% bonus to Strip Miner yield 66.66% reduction in Ice Harvester Duration and capacitor use
I've gone over some raw math for ice mining (since there are less calculations than the ore ones and I'm more accustomed to it.).
Math These examples are assuming, for simplicity: - Base Cycle time of 100 Seconds - Mining Barge/Exhumers 5 - No other modules, skills or RL examples
Ice Per Hour Hulk = 225 Mackinaw = 196 Skiff = 127
Using the same Ultra-simplified math for mackinaws in their current build = 192.
This means that perfect skilled Mackinaw pilots will see a slight increase in yield, couple that with the new ice mining Rig (14% cycle time bonus, can only fit one), you're looking at quite a big difference, now on the other hand, if you swap that out for a Hulk, overall Ice volume should go up a huge amount.
For the ice miners, this should have little impact, whilst the amount of ice you mine will increase, the price of the refined goods will likely drop with it.
What this means for everyone else is cheaper jumping/pos fuel \o/
My Feedback In short for ice mining, these changes will increase the ice per hour for all pilots, especially with the new rigs. and I think this is a bad idea because...
Pros - Ice Product prices will drop, allowing people to fuel their caps and towers a little cheaper
Cons - At the moment I struggle to visit the bathroom and get back to my PC before my cargohold fills and I miss mining cycles which is very annoying. If I'm filling up even faster, legitimate players will have even more trouble keeping up with macro/bot farmers, or we have to start peeing into a bottle. - Change does nothing but improve macro/bot farming, whilst making it more tricky for legitimate players
Suggestion Increase the pure base mining speed bonus on the Ice Harvester lasers by say 30%, then increase the refined material output by a proportional amount. This way you keep the pro point mentioned above, allow the Ice products price to drop slightly, but not make mining harder for legitimate players and no different for botters.
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Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
142
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 21:27:00 -
[112] - Quote
500m3 is all you need for crystals. That will give you enough space for 10 T2 crystals, or 16 T1. T2 crystals in a Hulk/Covetor can be configured for 3 sets plus 1 spare crystal of your most important type, or two sets plus two spare of each set. T1 crystals can have 4 sets with a spare for each, or three sets with a full replacement for one set and two spare crystals for the other two sets.
This bullspit about, "I NEED A FULL SET OF EVERY ORE TYPE CRYSTAL IN MY HOLD OMG!!!!!1" is hogwash. Any competent miner is only going to go after a few ore types ( the ones that have high ISK/m3 ) anyway. Miner/Producers, are going to mine the highest ISK/m3 ore they can and sell what they don't use to buy the minerals that they do need, so again limiting the range of ores to just a few which can be easily covered by a limited crystal set in a 500m3 cargo hold. "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
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Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
218
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 21:29:00 -
[113] - Quote
Mortimer Civeri wrote:500m3 is all you need for crystals. That will give you enough space for 10 T2 crystals, or 16 T1. T2 crystals in a Hulk/Covetor can be configured for 3 sets plus 1 spare crystal of your most important type, or two sets plus two spare of each set. T1 crystals can have 4 sets with a spare for each, or three sets with a full replacement for one set and two spare crystals for the other two sets.
This bullspit about, "I NEED A FULL SET OF EVERY ORE TYPE CRYSTAL IN MY HOLD OMG!!!!!1" is hogwash. Any competent miner is only going to go after a few ore types ( the ones that have high ISK/m3 ) anyway. Miner/Producers, are going to mine the highest ISK/m3 ore they can and sell what they don't use to buy the minerals that they do need, so again limiting the range of ores to just a few which can be easily covered by a limited crystal set in a 500m3 cargo hold.
any competent miner [in a hulk] will be in a fleet stripping belts of everything, there's at least 4 ores per belt in high sec alone, then when we get to grav sites etc that goes up. in 0.0 you WILL mine everything including the hideous spodumain in order to cycle the grav site.
so yes, you do need a full set of crystals in a hulk, pehaps not in a mack or skiff, but you do in a hulk. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Dominika Brumarova
Buddel und Schuerf - Mining Corp
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 21:35:00 -
[114] - Quote
Dear devs!!
Please rething the HULK concept. I definately understand, that Hulk is supossed to be a fleet ship, but with the model you have on Sisi server, its only corp fleet ship. The cargohold should be enlarged to at least 2000m withouh rigs and extenders or the T2 mining crystals volume should be lowered to aprox something around 12m/piece.
Lets hope that the voice of the community will be heard.
Fly safe
Dom |
Stefan1978
Buddel und Schuerf - Mining Corp
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 21:38:00 -
[115] - Quote
I hope the DevTeam will reading here in Forum, and wait with the Changes. Hopefully go to next Day of Mining in good old Gankable Hulk with 19.000m-¦ INSTEAD OF Fu...ING 1170,5 m-¦. What-¦s wrong with CCP. It HURTS. |
Sovai Elaaren
KABS Deep Recon Unit
30
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 22:08:00 -
[116] - Quote
Mortimer Civeri wrote:500m3 is all you need for crystals. That will give you enough space for 10 T2 crystals, or 16 T1. T2 crystals in a Hulk/Covetor can be configured for 3 sets plus 1 spare crystal of your most important type, or two sets plus two spare of each set. T1 crystals can have 4 sets with a spare for each, or three sets with a full replacement for one set and two spare crystals for the other two sets.
This bullspit about, "I NEED A FULL SET OF EVERY ORE TYPE CRYSTAL IN MY HOLD OMG!!!!!1" is hogwash. Any competent miner is only going to go after a few ore types ( the ones that have high ISK/m3 ) anyway. Miner/Producers, are going to mine the highest ISK/m3 ore they can and sell what they don't use to buy the minerals that they do need, so again limiting the range of ores to just a few which can be easily covered by a limited crystal set in a 500m3 cargo hold.
Crap, I didn't remember that T2 cystals are only 50m3, I was thinking they were 100m3 for some reason.
I would agree, it's probably fine as it is. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1686
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 22:27:00 -
[117] - Quote
Sovai Elaaren wrote:Mortimer Civeri wrote:500m3 is all you need for crystals. That will give you enough space for 10 T2 crystals, or 16 T1. T2 crystals in a Hulk/Covetor can be configured for 3 sets plus 1 spare crystal of your most important type, or two sets plus two spare of each set. T1 crystals can have 4 sets with a spare for each, or three sets with a full replacement for one set and two spare crystals for the other two sets.
This bullspit about, "I NEED A FULL SET OF EVERY ORE TYPE CRYSTAL IN MY HOLD OMG!!!!!1" is hogwash. Any competent miner is only going to go after a few ore types ( the ones that have high ISK/m3 ) anyway. Miner/Producers, are going to mine the highest ISK/m3 ore they can and sell what they don't use to buy the minerals that they do need, so again limiting the range of ores to just a few which can be easily covered by a limited crystal set in a 500m3 cargo hold. Crap, I didn't remember that T2 cystals are only 50m3, I was thinking they were 100m3 for some reason. I would agree, it's probably fine as it is. Edit: Though I certainly wouldn't object to a buff of this. The less pointless logistics the better. After all, the point of it being a fleet ship is that you need someone to haul your ore, not your crystals.
Also, the point of being a weakly tanked, fleet requiring ship is to be very efficient. Hard to be very efficient if you have to fiddle with pure time sink oriented artificially created issues like lack of room for crystals. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Holi
Duct Ales
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 22:45:00 -
[118] - Quote
I'm sorry but if you cannot do your business in under two cycles you need to L2P(ee)
On another note: most barges/exhumers have a base speed of 80 or 90 m/s but the Skiff has 200. T2 fitted NanoSkiff can reach 800+ m/s with good skills. If this is intended then the Procurer's base speed should be upped to around 200 as well. |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
97
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 22:46:00 -
[119] - Quote
Sovai Elaaren wrote:Edit: Though I certainly wouldn't object to a buff of this. The less pointless logistics the better. After all, the point of it being a fleet ship is that you need someone to haul your ore, not your crystals. ^ This.
The other changes are looking good (haven't made it to SiSi yet to 'test').
The Cargohold/Crystals issue is by far, the biggest issue that I'm see at the moment. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Comic Mischief
851
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 22:51:00 -
[120] - Quote
Got on the test server. Overall I like the changes. I still think the Hulk deserves more cargo space to hold crystals for its 3 strips. One thing I noticed is that the drone bays have not been modified. The Skiff, a ship intended to have good defenses, can only fly 3 light drones. CCP, maybe you should review the drone capability of all the mining ships. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
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Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
4055
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 22:54:00 -
[121] - Quote
I want blueprint changes amarr dammit.
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Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
185
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 23:20:00 -
[122] - Quote
I can't get to SiSi as I'm working back2back 12 hour shifts. So let me ask: 1) How does the ice mining skill apply ? To the rigs or the mods? 2) How do they alter existing ships ? Like, do you log in to find that the existing rigs have been auto deleted? 3) If we buy ships now, I am assuming that they will be auto-converted into the new versions when the patch hammer drops ?
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Trespasser
S0utherN Comfort Cascade Imminent
4
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 23:40:00 -
[123] - Quote
Urgg Boolean wrote:I can't get to SiSi as I'm working back2back 12 hour shifts. So let me ask: 1) How does the ice mining skill apply ? To the rigs or the mods? 2) How do they alter existing ships ? Like, do you log in to find that the existing rigs have been auto deleted? 3) If we buy ships now, I am assuming that they will be auto-converted into the new versions when the patch hammer drops ?
They Do alter the existing ships, so if you have one right now or buy one, come patch day they will be updated to the new version |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Comic Mischief
851
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 23:41:00 -
[124] - Quote
Urgg Boolean wrote:I can't get to SiSi as I'm working back2back 12 hour shifts. So let me ask: 1) How does the ice mining skill apply ? To the rigs or the mods? 2) How do they alter existing ships ? Like, do you log in to find that the existing rigs have been auto deleted? 3) If we buy ships now, I am assuming that they will be auto-converted into the new versions when the patch hammer drops ?
If its anything like the past: Existing ships just get modified. As no rigs are being removed from the game, no rig will be deleted from your ship. If the slot layout of any ship is changed so it has fewer slots, the "extra" fitted items are placed in that ship's cargo hold. (Making sure this works right and suddenly finding that on the live server there is an unexpected event that never showed in testing is one reason we get extended down times).
I assume the ice mining skill will reduce cycle time, like it always has. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Javajunky
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
30
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 00:08:00 -
[125] - Quote
P3po wrote:I have dreamed a day where i can cary full set of crystals + 1 or 2 crystals spare if one gets destroyed .... guess i will have to wait few more years.
I think this guy "carry it in orca" never mined with 5-6 hulks at once, and have no idea how annoying it is with the crystals.
Yeah imagine that... I've probably posted this wish item a hundred times over the years.
Of course they went the extact opposite direction by not letting us even sport a full set of crystals.... of course they could be a sport and just drop the crystal m3 size down to 1m3 per crystal... nice to dream right? |
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
142
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 00:15:00 -
[126] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Mortimer Civeri wrote:500m3 is all you need for crystals. That will give you enough space for 10 T2 crystals, or 16 T1. T2 crystals in a Hulk/Covetor can be configured for 3 sets plus 1 spare crystal of your most important type, or two sets plus two spare of each set. T1 crystals can have 4 sets with a spare for each, or three sets with a full replacement for one set and two spare crystals for the other two sets.
This bullspit about, "I NEED A FULL SET OF EVERY ORE TYPE CRYSTAL IN MY HOLD OMG!!!!!1" is hogwash. Any competent miner is only going to go after a few ore types ( the ones that have high ISK/m3 ) anyway. Miner/Producers, are going to mine the highest ISK/m3 ore they can and sell what they don't use to buy the minerals that they do need, so again limiting the range of ores to just a few which can be easily covered by a limited crystal set in a 500m3 cargo hold. any competent miner [in a hulk] will be in a fleet stripping belts of everything, there's at least 4 ores per belt in high sec alone, then when we get to grav sites etc that goes up. in 0.0 you WILL mine everything including the hideous spodumain in order to cycle the grav site. so yes, you do need a full set of crystals in a hulk, pehaps not in a mack or skiff, but you do in a hulk.
Psst "T1 crystals can have 4 sets with a spare for each." That takes care of the highsec belts. As for 0.0, haulers can shuttle crystals as needed from a Roqal or Orca that is safely in a POS, or if you want to John Wayne it, the rat tank can shuttle the crystals from the Orca or Roqal in the gravametric site (never EVER have them in the site, ever, unless you want to show people a hilarious lossmail.)
"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
|
Javajunky
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
30
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 00:50:00 -
[127] - Quote
Mortimer Civeri wrote:Dave stark wrote:Mortimer Civeri wrote:500m3 is all you need for crystals. That will give you enough space for 10 T2 crystals, or 16 T1. T2 crystals in a Hulk/Covetor can be configured for 3 sets plus 1 spare crystal of your most important type, or two sets plus two spare of each set. T1 crystals can have 4 sets with a spare for each, or three sets with a full replacement for one set and two spare crystals for the other two sets.
This bullspit about, "I NEED A FULL SET OF EVERY ORE TYPE CRYSTAL IN MY HOLD OMG!!!!!1" is hogwash. Any competent miner is only going to go after a few ore types ( the ones that have high ISK/m3 ) anyway. Miner/Producers, are going to mine the highest ISK/m3 ore they can and sell what they don't use to buy the minerals that they do need, so again limiting the range of ores to just a few which can be easily covered by a limited crystal set in a 500m3 cargo hold. any competent miner [in a hulk] will be in a fleet stripping belts of everything, there's at least 4 ores per belt in high sec alone, then when we get to grav sites etc that goes up. in 0.0 you WILL mine everything including the hideous spodumain in order to cycle the grav site. so yes, you do need a full set of crystals in a hulk, pehaps not in a mack or skiff, but you do in a hulk. Psst, I bolded the part YOU DIDN'T READ. That takes care of the highsec belts. As for 0.0, haulers can shuttle crystals as needed from a Roqal or Orca that is safely in a POS, or if you want to John Wayne it, the rat tank can shuttle the crystals from the Orca or Roqal in the gravametric site (never EVER have them in the site, ever, unless you want to show people a hilarious lossmail.)
You fail to take into account the multi-boxers perspective. Shuttling Crystals means shutting down a Exhumber to sit on ammo? Seriously, you must be an empire pubbie. If you weren't you'd see rorq's out as haulers all the time. I've got 1 boosting and 1 hauling. When you have 9 exhumbers an orca doesn't come close to cutting it. Oh yeah and that hauler rorq - parked right in the middle of the belt and has been for the last year.
Thankis for playing - t-shirt's in the mail.... |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
585
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 00:51:00 -
[128] - Quote
The QQ over mining crystals in this thread is hysterical. "WE DONT WANT TO DO POINTLESS LOGISTICS." Ya'll really aren't satisfied unless you're in a perfect mining environment that is as conducive to not having to think at all as possible. . |
Javajunky
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
30
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 01:04:00 -
[129] - Quote
corestwo wrote:The QQ over mining crystals in this thread is hysterical. "WE DONT WANT TO DO POINTLESS LOGISTICS." Ya'll really aren't satisfied unless you're in a perfect mining environment that is as conducive to not having to think at all as possible.
Obviously as someone who doesn't mine, thank you for your troll bait. If you had any skin in the game, you'd actually care. It's not like we're asking for a new feature, we're just asking for the capability we previously had??? |
Gevlin
SMANews.net SpaceMonkey's Alliance
174
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 02:24:00 -
[130] - Quote
for a mining co-ordinator I aill be looking forward to encourage newb miners to fly the skiffs and a 4 machinas. as they are going to fit a nice tanks and not too much lose in mining yield. as I can put plenty of these in one of my rorquals, then have the other rorqual hold hulks for the experienced.
Some Questions
Question 1 I am wondering if the construction costs are going to increase for the Retriever or Procurer. if not it will be a hard choice to switch to hulk or covetor if you are a mysre. Especially that the cost of tech 2 crystals are going to be minimal for the Skiff.
Question 2 Also is the increase in tank to solution for the old reduction of chance to produce a cloud?
Question 3 Just a gut feeling the Mach and the Skiff have no strong bonus that grows with skill of the ship like 5% Alternate Ideas instead of a Mining yield bonus: -->Increase in the Number of mining drones a player can control would be fun. Vs Increase the yield or the increase in Yield or HP of mining drones. (Mach Preference) -->Decrease in Signature radius (Skiff Preference) -->Increase in Shield Resists.(Skiff Preference) -->Increase in Movement (Skiff preference) -->Increase Targeting and Mining Laser Range bonus (Mach preference.) allowing the pilot become even lazier Roid Sniper -->Increase in Power Grid (skiff Preference)
Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
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Draconus Lofwyr
The Green Cross Persona Non Gratis
25
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 04:17:00 -
[131] - Quote
are they planning on unfitting rigs from existing fits since a lot of exhumers have cargo rigs fitted. the ore hold changes now make these rigs practically worthless. |
Industrializata
Imperial Logistics And Research
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 04:37:00 -
[132] - Quote
while now getting with a mack 4 cubes of ice @ 191 seconds ( orca boosted ) , anyone know what would be the new output considering Ice Harvesting Upgrades and the rig?
Thanks in advance! |
Janet Patton
Brony Express
26
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 05:28:00 -
[133] - Quote
Droxlyn wrote:Tippia wrote:Droxlyn wrote:Please boost the storage of the Hulk's Ore bay to 11000 because two perfect cycle sets results in 10918.5 m3 of ore. 1819.75 * 6. Good thing that you have a fleet at hand to take that ore off your hand, and that 4 individual laser cycles is more than enough time, no matter how you cut it, to dump the ore either into a can or into a nearby storage vessel. The Hulk is a fleet mining ship. They assume that you will be handing the ore over to someone else, so very little local storage is actually needed. My desire is to do it every-other-cycle, not every-cycle. I'd like a little extra time for potty breaks and forum browsing. Drox
You can wait 5.59 minutes and do two cycles. Empty it just before then 2nd cycle finishes. Why do I have this sig? I don't smoke. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
220
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 06:21:00 -
[134] - Quote
Mortimer Civeri wrote:Dave stark wrote:Mortimer Civeri wrote:500m3 is all you need for crystals. That will give you enough space for 10 T2 crystals, or 16 T1. T2 crystals in a Hulk/Covetor can be configured for 3 sets plus 1 spare crystal of your most important type, or two sets plus two spare of each set. T1 crystals can have 4 sets with a spare for each, or three sets with a full replacement for one set and two spare crystals for the other two sets.
This bullspit about, "I NEED A FULL SET OF EVERY ORE TYPE CRYSTAL IN MY HOLD OMG!!!!!1" is hogwash. Any competent miner is only going to go after a few ore types ( the ones that have high ISK/m3 ) anyway. Miner/Producers, are going to mine the highest ISK/m3 ore they can and sell what they don't use to buy the minerals that they do need, so again limiting the range of ores to just a few which can be easily covered by a limited crystal set in a 500m3 cargo hold. any competent miner [in a hulk] will be in a fleet stripping belts of everything, there's at least 4 ores per belt in high sec alone, then when we get to grav sites etc that goes up. in 0.0 you WILL mine everything including the hideous spodumain in order to cycle the grav site. so yes, you do need a full set of crystals in a hulk, pehaps not in a mack or skiff, but you do in a hulk. Psst, I bolded the part YOU DIDN'T READ. That takes care of the highsec belts. As for 0.0, haulers can shuttle crystals as needed from a Roqal or Orca that is safely in a POS, or if you want to John Wayne it, the rat tank can shuttle the crystals from the Orca or Roqal in the gravametric site (never EVER have them in the site, ever, unless you want to show people a hilarious lossmail.)
i did read the bolded part, what good is 1 crystal when you have 3 strips to reload? also who is going to waste a player tanking rats when all the new exhumers will be capable of tanking them and an abundance of light drones will provide ample dps to deal with even a 3 bs spawn? it's just one less miner.
corestwo wrote:The QQ over mining crystals in this thread is hysterical. "WE DONT WANT TO DO POINTLESS LOGISTICS." Ya'll really aren't satisfied unless you're in a perfect mining environment that is as conducive to not having to think at all as possible.
it's more a fact that the hulk's cargo has been separated in such a poor manner. the hulk is a fleet ship so there's no reason for it to need to carry more than one cycle of ore; so why does it have 7500m3 of space? move the wasted space back to the regular cargo bay and the issue is solved without giving the hulk more space, or reducing the size of mining crystals.
the cargo allocation on the hulk has just been poorly thought out. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Stefan1978
Buddel und Schuerf - Mining Corp
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 07:17:00 -
[135] - Quote
Top Miner in Hulk do before and after Patch 5884m-¦ or ore in one cycle drones in121 sec (closest to astroid) 824m-¦ (mining drones rig tech II) so what you have after go pissing in 121 sec x2 - 1 sec for hauling?? Math is not yours? 5884m-¦ + 4x424m-¦ = 7580!!!! That is reason for 7500m-¦ !!
And now give back the old Cargo and stop Stupid 8.August Patch!!!! It Hurts. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
119
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 07:37:00 -
[136] - Quote
Did i miss a change or something? did they remove the ability for the orca/hulk to jettison a can or set up a giant secure container in space?
really, how hard is it to ask when the orca comes by to pick up your ore, to ask him to leave a few crystals when youre running low? IIRC T2 crystals last around 200 cycles, this means that AT MOST youre going to need a spare set of crystals for what you're currently mining, a set of crystals for what you want to mine next, and a spare set of crystals for what you want to mine next.
So say youre mining veldspar because trit is ridiculous and the next ore youre gonna mine is scordite.so you have 3 veldspar crystals in your lasers that probably already have damage from your last op, 3 more brand new veldspar crystals in your cargo, 3 used scordite crystals, and 3 new scordite crystals for a grand total of 450 m^3 If your orca buddy hasnt come by in the time it took you to either break all of those crystals, or mine all of those rocks out, mining crystals are not going to be your main problem.
All that being said, I would like to see the hold on the Mack get buffed as it is designed to be self sufficient, I would like to see it get a 1,500 m^3 cargo bay so it can hold 2 of every T2 crystal in the game if you include the ones loaded into the miners.
In fact it would be easier to switch the roles for the mack and the skiff so that you only have to carry one of each crystal. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
119
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 07:40:00 -
[137] - Quote
Stefan1978 wrote:Top Miner in Hulk do before and after Patch 5884m-¦ or ore in one cycle drones in121 sec (closest to astroid) 824m-¦ (mining drones rig tech II) so what you have after go pissing in 121 sec x2 - 1 sec for hauling?? Math is not yours? 5884m-¦ + 4x424m-¦ = 7580!!!! That is reason for 7500m-¦ !!
And now give back the old Cargo and stop Stupid 8.August Patch!!!! It Hurts. if you want to AFK mine, go buy a Mackinaw |
Dominika Brumarova
Buddel und Schuerf - Mining Corp
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 08:04:00 -
[138] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Stefan1978 wrote:Top Miner in Hulk do before and after Patch 5884m-¦ or ore in one cycle drones in121 sec (closest to astroid) 824m-¦ (mining drones rig tech II) so what you have after go pissing in 121 sec x2 - 1 sec for hauling?? Math is not yours? 5884m-¦ + 4x424m-¦ = 7580!!!! That is reason for 7500m-¦ !!
And now give back the old Cargo and stop Stupid 8.August Patch!!!! It Hurts. if you want to AFK mine, go buy a Mackinaw
Well i want to go to WC or to check my dinner in the kitchen........?2 cycles are ussualy enought for that. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
220
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 08:06:00 -
[139] - Quote
Dominika Brumarova wrote:Sigras wrote:Stefan1978 wrote:Top Miner in Hulk do before and after Patch 5884m-¦ or ore in one cycle drones in121 sec (closest to astroid) 824m-¦ (mining drones rig tech II) so what you have after go pissing in 121 sec x2 - 1 sec for hauling?? Math is not yours? 5884m-¦ + 4x424m-¦ = 7580!!!! That is reason for 7500m-¦ !!
And now give back the old Cargo and stop Stupid 8.August Patch!!!! It Hurts. if you want to AFK mine, go buy a Mackinaw Well i want to go to WC or to check my dinner in the kitchen........?2 cycles are ussualy enought for that.
get a mackinaw or suck it up that the game won't play itself while you're not at the computer. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Annette Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 09:10:00 -
[140] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Dominika Brumarova wrote:Sigras wrote:Stefan1978 wrote:Top Miner in Hulk do before and after Patch 5884m-¦ or ore in one cycle drones in121 sec (closest to astroid) 824m-¦ (mining drones rig tech II) so what you have after go pissing in 121 sec x2 - 1 sec for hauling?? Math is not yours? 5884m-¦ + 4x424m-¦ = 7580!!!! That is reason for 7500m-¦ !!
And now give back the old Cargo and stop Stupid 8.August Patch!!!! It Hurts. if you want to AFK mine, go buy a Mackinaw Well i want to go to WC or to check my dinner in the kitchen........?2 cycles are ussualy enought for that. get a mackinaw or suck it up that the game won't play itself while you're not at the computer.
This is one of those gold nuggets worth panning for. o7 |
|
Arctos Canis
Ice Wolves
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 10:33:00 -
[141] - Quote
So since everyone is pissed off about cargo hold rigs T2's and that they are fitted and useless. Here is a thought :) u can make them that cargo hold rig would give boost to ore hold capacity too. And everyone lived happily ever after... :) cuz it makes more room for crystals in cargo holds and ore hold boosted can fit two cycles in it. (P.S. got lots of ships stuff with that situation too, removing them to item hangar for players after patch is an option ppl mentioned, but its not happening I presume do to incredible effort needed from CCP) |
Jagoff Haverford
The Terrifying League Of Dog Fort Get Off My Lawn
14
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 11:38:00 -
[142] - Quote
Please make the Hulk's cargo hold bigger. At 500m, it can hold only 10 crystals... and those crystals have to handle 3 lasers. It's not even enough space to handle a full set of crystals for 3 different kinds of ore, let alone spares for when a crystal goes pop.
A Skiff, meanwhile, can hold enough crystals in its hold for 7 different kinds of ore.
Since it's crystal needs are 3 times higher than a Skiff, the Hulk should be able to care 3 times more crystals than the Skiff, or 1,050m. At the very least, the Hulk should be able to carry a number of crystals that can be evening divided by 3.
An even better solution, though, might be to make the mining crystals take up less space. I would imagine that they were set at 50m apiece at about the same time that the original mining barge cargoholds were being created. The idea, back then, was to make these crystals bulky enough that players would need to balance their crystal needs with their ability to carry ore.
Now that crystals and ore aren't competing for space, do crystals really need to stay at 50m apiece? |
Gimboid
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 12:33:00 -
[143] - Quote
Change makes Ice mining more Macro/Bot Friendly and harder for legitimate mining players.
Please consider increasing the base cycle time on all Ice Harvests, and increase the refined material yields. If the math looks the way it does now a player taking part in a legitimate fleet mining operation will have to **** into a bottle to avoid missing cycles. |
Gevlin
SMANews.net SpaceMonkey's Alliance
174
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 13:01:00 -
[144] - Quote
cargo size of the Hulk is more than large enough as it is meant to have support, as it is the Min max vessel, to work in a group
the cargo size of the Mach/Retirever is another story as this is meant to be the AFK mining ship. its cargo should be atleast 400m3 to fit 2 sets of reloads as it the lazy mans ship. Just my opinion. but this is not a strong suggestion.
the Procurer/skiff should be fine it only has 1 strip Miner so 3 reloads should be plenty for the day or so.
Though from what I am reading and the justifications behind them. I am thinking CCP may have made a good balance. I am seeing - people complaining about the AFK feature being nerfed out for their Min/Max hulk. Which is what the Retriver/ Mach is... the afk Mining ship. Now people have their cake and eat it too. It is nice. Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Catholic School for Boys A Point In Space
26
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 13:29:00 -
[145] - Quote
Gimboid wrote:Change makes Ice mining more Macro/Bot Friendly and harder for legitimate mining players.
Please consider increasing the base cycle time on all Ice Harvests, and increase the refined material yields. If the math looks the way it does now a player taking part in a legitimate fleet mining operation will have to **** into a bottle to avoid missing cycles.
how is increasing cycle time and refining yield less bot friendly and better for "legitimate" players? make ice mining even more boring, with 10 minutes cycle time will push even more people into botting. make ice miners cycle as fast as normal strips and adjust ice volume and stuff to get the ice product yield per hour to be as high as it is now. give people something to do...
|
Draconyx
Oort Cloud Industries The OORT Cloud
3
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 13:36:00 -
[146] - Quote
Not bad BUT
Hulk and Covetor Ore holds need to be increased so that 2 cycles can be done before you have to empty.
Here is the break down using only T1 strips, T2 Upgrades, 3% implant and without fleet bonuses.
Cycles Before Full (CBF)
Hulk (4096.59 m^3/cycle) = 1 CBF Covetor (3717.12 m^3/cycle) = 1 CBF Mackinaw (3545.20 m^3/cycle) = 10 CBF Retriever ( 3376.34 m^3/cycle) = 8 CBF Skiff ( 3252.48 m^3/cycle) = 5 CBF Procure (3097.60 m^3/cycle)r = 4 CBF
The ore hold should be based on Fleet bonuses + T2 + max yield implants.
|
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
79
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 13:36:00 -
[147] - Quote
Mortimer Civeri wrote:500m3 is all you need for crystals. That will give you enough space for 10 T2 crystals, or 16 T1. T2 crystals in a Hulk/Covetor can be configured for 3 sets plus 1 spare crystal of your most important type, or two sets plus two spare of each set. T1 crystals can have 4 sets with a spare for each, or three sets with a full replacement for one set and two spare crystals for the other two sets.
This bullspit about, "I NEED A FULL SET OF EVERY ORE TYPE CRYSTAL IN MY HOLD OMG!!!!!1" is hogwash. Any competent miner is only going to go after a few ore types ( the ones that have high ISK/m3 ) anyway. Miner/Producers, are going to mine the highest ISK/m3 ore they can and sell what they don't use to buy the minerals that they do need, so again limiting the range of ores to just a few which can be easily covered by a limited crystal set in a 500m3 cargo hold.
If you ever take up mining (and I don't mean in high sec), feel free to comment.
Even in the current setup there is no way to lug around enough crystals for every ore out there, but having crystals loaded in the bay to handle 5-6 types of ore is not uncommon at all, and it usually means you loose 1-2k cargohold just for this.
|
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Catholic School for Boys A Point In Space
26
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 14:05:00 -
[148] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:Mortimer Civeri wrote:500m3 is all you need for crystals. That will give you enough space for 10 T2 crystals, or 16 T1. T2 crystals in a Hulk/Covetor can be configured for 3 sets plus 1 spare crystal of your most important type, or two sets plus two spare of each set. T1 crystals can have 4 sets with a spare for each, or three sets with a full replacement for one set and two spare crystals for the other two sets.
This bullspit about, "I NEED A FULL SET OF EVERY ORE TYPE CRYSTAL IN MY HOLD OMG!!!!!1" is hogwash. Any competent miner is only going to go after a few ore types ( the ones that have high ISK/m3 ) anyway. Miner/Producers, are going to mine the highest ISK/m3 ore they can and sell what they don't use to buy the minerals that they do need, so again limiting the range of ores to just a few which can be easily covered by a limited crystal set in a 500m3 cargo hold. If you ever take up mining (and I don't mean in high sec), feel free to comment. Even in the current setup there is no way to lug around enough crystals for every ore out there, but having crystals loaded in the bay to handle 5-6 types of ore is not uncommon at all, and it usually means you loose 1-2k cargohold just for this.
i also think 500m-¦ is more than enough and i am mining in 0.0 changing habits isnt always bad :)
|
Unit757
North Point Cannabis Legionis
12
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 14:12:00 -
[149] - Quote
Draconyx wrote:Not bad BUT
Hulk and Covetor Ore holds need to be increased so that 2 cycles can be done before you have to empty.
Here is the break down using only T1 strips, T2 Upgrades, 3% implant and without fleet bonuses.
Cycles Before Full (CBF)
Hulk (4096.59 m^3/cycle) = 1 CBF Covetor (3717.12 m^3/cycle) = 1 CBF Mackinaw (3545.20 m^3/cycle) = 10 CBF Retriever ( 3376.34 m^3/cycle) = 8 CBF Skiff ( 3252.48 m^3/cycle) = 5 CBF Procure (3097.60 m^3/cycle)r = 4 CBF
The ore hold should be based on Fleet bonuses + T2 + max yield implants.
PS - Option if you don't want to add it in for solo miners then how about adding in the bonus to one of the Command links so that you have to be in a fleet with links to get it. That works as well.
The hulk is not mean't to hold more then one cycle, it is a transition point for ore between space, and the orca/rorq. If you want a ship to hold more then one cycle, use a machinaw or skiff.
|
Gimboid
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 14:17:00 -
[150] - Quote
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:Gimboid wrote:Change makes Ice mining more Macro/Bot Friendly and harder for legitimate mining players.
Please consider increasing the base cycle time on all Ice Harvests, and increase the refined material yields. If the math looks the way it does now a player taking part in a legitimate fleet mining operation will have to **** into a bottle to avoid missing cycles. how is increasing cycle time and refining yield less bot friendly and better for "legitimate" players? make ice mining even more boring, with 10 minutes cycle time will push even more people into botting. make ice miners cycle as fast as normal strips and adjust ice volume and stuff to get the ice product yield per hour to be as high as it is now. give people something to do...
Be realistic here. Our ice-mining fleets get more enjoyment out of talking **** to eachother on voice chat and making fun of each other than the mining itself.
At the moment, I can just about get up, go for a toilet break and make a new drink before all my cycles screw up and I loose them (which means, I loose ISK and ice is wasted). With the above changes, cycle times will be even faster, than means a legitimate player wanting to mine ice will have trouble going to the bathroom without coming back to find their cargohold full and more ISK loss.
This is "bot friendly" because bots don't need to take toilet breaks. So if the cycle times get too fast, it emppowers automated play more than short cycles hinder it. Really the minute the patch goes live and these bots are mining 10% faster, they will adjust their bot scripts to drag their ore 10% more often, no negative impact on them what so ever. |
|
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
79
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 14:20:00 -
[151] - Quote
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:Jake Rivers wrote:Mortimer Civeri wrote:500m3 is all you need for crystals. That will give you enough space for 10 T2 crystals, or 16 T1. T2 crystals in a Hulk/Covetor can be configured for 3 sets plus 1 spare crystal of your most important type, or two sets plus two spare of each set. T1 crystals can have 4 sets with a spare for each, or three sets with a full replacement for one set and two spare crystals for the other two sets.
This bullspit about, "I NEED A FULL SET OF EVERY ORE TYPE CRYSTAL IN MY HOLD OMG!!!!!1" is hogwash. Any competent miner is only going to go after a few ore types ( the ones that have high ISK/m3 ) anyway. Miner/Producers, are going to mine the highest ISK/m3 ore they can and sell what they don't use to buy the minerals that they do need, so again limiting the range of ores to just a few which can be easily covered by a limited crystal set in a 500m3 cargo hold. If you ever take up mining (and I don't mean in high sec), feel free to comment. Even in the current setup there is no way to lug around enough crystals for every ore out there, but having crystals loaded in the bay to handle 5-6 types of ore is not uncommon at all, and it usually means you loose 1-2k cargohold just for this. i also think 500m-¦ is more than enough and i am mining in 0.0 changing habits isnt always bad :)
If you only cherry pick ABCs sure its plenty. |
baltec1
Bat Country
1700
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 14:28:00 -
[152] - Quote
These are now far too easy to both tank and get max yeild. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
234
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 14:36:00 -
[153] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:Jake Rivers wrote:Mortimer Civeri wrote:500m3 is all you need for crystals. That will give you enough space for 10 T2 crystals, or 16 T1. T2 crystals in a Hulk/Covetor can be configured for 3 sets plus 1 spare crystal of your most important type, or two sets plus two spare of each set. T1 crystals can have 4 sets with a spare for each, or three sets with a full replacement for one set and two spare crystals for the other two sets.
This bullspit about, "I NEED A FULL SET OF EVERY ORE TYPE CRYSTAL IN MY HOLD OMG!!!!!1" is hogwash. Any competent miner is only going to go after a few ore types ( the ones that have high ISK/m3 ) anyway. Miner/Producers, are going to mine the highest ISK/m3 ore they can and sell what they don't use to buy the minerals that they do need, so again limiting the range of ores to just a few which can be easily covered by a limited crystal set in a 500m3 cargo hold. If you ever take up mining (and I don't mean in high sec), feel free to comment. Even in the current setup there is no way to lug around enough crystals for every ore out there, but having crystals loaded in the bay to handle 5-6 types of ore is not uncommon at all, and it usually means you loose 1-2k cargohold just for this. i also think 500m-¦ is more than enough and i am mining in 0.0 changing habits isnt always bad :) If you only cherry pick ABCs sure its plenty.
you mean cherry pick As, since BC ores are worth **** all now. if you're just mining arkonor and nothing but of course 500m3 is sufficient. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
234
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 14:37:00 -
[154] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:These are now far too easy to both tank and get max yeild.
actually that's impossible because both max yield and tank do not belong to one ship. unlike the current situation. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Catholic School for Boys A Point In Space
26
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 14:51:00 -
[155] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote: {....} If you only cherry pick ABCs sure its plenty.
havent touched acb. but i mine in a fleet with purpose and concept. 5 minutes of preparation and 500m-¦ is all you need on crystals when serious mining is on.
Gimboid wrote: Be realistic here. Our ice-mining fleets get more enjoyment out of talking **** to eachother on voice chat and making fun of each other than the mining itself.
At the moment, I can just about get up, go for a toilet break and make a new drink before all my cycles screw up and I loose them (which means, I loose ISK and ice is wasted). With the above changes, cycle times will be even faster, than means a legitimate player wanting to mine ice will have trouble going to the bathroom without coming back to find their cargohold full and more ISK loss.
This is "bot friendly" because bots don't need to take toilet breaks. So if the cycle times get too fast, it emppowers automated play more than short cycles hinder it. Really the minute the patch goes live and these bots are mining 10% faster, they will adjust their bot scripts to drag their ore 10% more often, no negative impact on them what so ever.
to be realistic: mining in its current form in generelly isnt very exciting. voice chat surely helps :) i can accept your statement as an opinion one can have but i do not agree. from my point of view longer cycles will male it only more boring than it is right now. potentionally more ice bots. faster cycles at least gives you something to do. (with still enough time to watch an episode on the side, go to the bathroom'n'stuff. unless you have this big session ahead of you... XD)
the bot problem needs a out pof the box solution. but i guess botting is nothing you can fix with a new gamemechanic.
|
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
236
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 14:55:00 -
[156] - Quote
hasn't it already been established that the hulk mines ~25% better than the skiff/mack... if you're losing more than 25% of your time at the keyboard to being in the toilet you should see a doctor, or more than 25% of your time doing other things you aren't really playing the game anyway...
just a thought. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Gimboid
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 15:10:00 -
[157] - Quote
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:to be realistic: mining in its current form in generelly isnt very exciting. voice chat surely helps :) i can accept your statement as an opinion one can have but i do not agree. from my point of view longer cycles will male it only more boring than it is right now. potentionally more ice bots. faster cycles at least gives you something to do. (with still enough time to watch an episode on the side, go to the bathroom'n'stuff. unless you have this big session ahead of you... XD)
the bot problem needs a out pof the box solution. but i guess botting is nothing you can fix with a new gamemechanic.
I run 3 (soon 4) accounts, which makes mining interesting enough for me, my two perfect ice miners with my mains Orca bonus have 187 second cycles, so that's litterally 3 minutes.
With the current mackinaw you can't let 2 full cycles complete as this will fill your cargohold and shut off the miners, having you come back to find 2 blocks of ice lost forever and missed however much of your new cycle.
To be an optimal miner with the current patch details I'll need to swap out my Mackinaws for Hulks, which will mine only 3 blocks per cycle, but with the new rig giving a further 12% bonus and the overall revamp I'm worried that I litterally won't be able to go to the bathroom without the cycles getting screwed up, which from my opinion empowers bot users, because they don't make mistakes and miss cycles, so they are more effecient miners than real players, will mine more volume and make more isk.
I'm not asking for a huge change here, the default cycle time on a Ice Harvester is 600/500 for T1/T2 respectively, I'm talking about upping that on each by say 30-40 seconds, and then adjusting the refinement yield on the ice to match is, so that the total goods earned /hour is no different, but more managable for a real player like myself. |
Arctos Canis
Ice Wolves
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 15:16:00 -
[158] - Quote
So everyone is just raging here about the 500m3 in hulks cargo hold :) but no one is even remotely raging about nerfed ice mining outputs and profit drops per same time spent mining it :) as mack looses ice mining barge role, after patche rest wont gonna compare to it. I wounder how is that so? |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
237
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 15:20:00 -
[159] - Quote
Arctos Canis wrote:So everyone is just raging here about the 500m3 in hulks cargo hold :) but no one is even remotely raging about nerfed ice mining outputs and profit drops per same time spent mining it :) as mack looses ice mining barge role, after patche rest wont gonna compare to it. I wounder how is that so?
the hulk was never that far behind the mackinaw anyway, not to mention ice is the most afkable mining out there, it's really not an issue. especially since we've also got new ice mining rigs. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
185
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 15:27:00 -
[160] - Quote
Had time to get onto SiSI and have some feedback. I have not really flown Mackinaws before, but that was my focus in SiSi.
Before the Mack info: that issue with screen dimming on my lap top is back. It was gone for so long, but apparently it's back with the latest patch in SiSi.
MACK: 1) cap constrained - using toons with varying skill sets, cap depletes in 3 mins using an active buffer/resist tank filling all mid slots - I used an anti-EM rig plus passive thermic amp plus 3X invul = stable @ 4% worst case - used a Power DIag in a low to get stable @ ~11% - cap still depletes if I cycle strippers more than once per full cycle 2) CPU constrained - with above semi-active tank, a CPU booster was needed. - forget an MLU as it pushes cap beyond limits - can use MLU with full passive tank, but it's that same purpose defeating issue of more tank/less yield or vice versa. 3) target constrained - only 4 target locks - maybe this is normal for a Mack, but it seems way too wimpy. I could live with 5, and 6 would be great. - 27K targeting range unbuffed by fleet booster - can't target BS Ratz in 0.0 as they orbit at 29K+. Must wait for Ratz to get close enough in hi sec. - can't have 4 roidz targeted cuz you must leave an open target slot for ratz 5) Good News : - the buffer/resist tank described above easily handled two rat BSs and 3 frigs. Not even a problem. - Hammerheads X10 (two ships in fleet) took out BSs fine, although slowly - tank about 75% after first BS torched, 85% while killing 2nd BS. - config: between 48K and 53K EHP depending on toon/skills (in fleet without Orca, in-game, not EFT guessing) - all resists in the high 80s - fairly wimpy shield at ~5.5-7K depending on toon/skills
LOWS CPU Booster thingy II (may or may not need - but it's close any way you slice it) PDU II DCU II
MIDS Thermic Amp II Invuln II X 3
HIGHs Strippers I X2
RIGS anti-EM I Shield Extender I
This was a quickie loadout for testing. I'd love to see people's fits for the Mack to get an idea of balancing tank/yield with all the constraints listed above. Hopefully, somone has devised a more optimal loadout... |
|
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
79
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 15:29:00 -
[161] - Quote
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:Jake Rivers wrote: {....} If you only cherry pick ABCs sure its plenty.
havent touched acb. but i mine in a fleet with purpose and concept. 5 minutes of preparation and 500m-¦ is all you need on crystals when serious mining is on. Gimboid wrote: Be realistic here. Our ice-mining fleets get more enjoyment out of talking **** to eachother on voice chat and making fun of each other than the mining itself.
At the moment, I can just about get up, go for a toilet break and make a new drink before all my cycles screw up and I loose them (which means, I loose ISK and ice is wasted). With the above changes, cycle times will be even faster, than means a legitimate player wanting to mine ice will have trouble going to the bathroom without coming back to find their cargohold full and more ISK loss.
This is "bot friendly" because bots don't need to take toilet breaks. So if the cycle times get too fast, it emppowers automated play more than short cycles hinder it. Really the minute the patch goes live and these bots are mining 10% faster, they will adjust their bot scripts to drag their ore 10% more often, no negative impact on them what so ever.
to be realistic: mining in its current form in generelly isnt very exciting. voice chat surely helps :) i can accept your statement as an opinion one can have but i do not agree. from my point of view longer cycles will male it only more boring than it is right now. potentionally more ice bots. faster cycles at least gives you something to do. (with still enough time to watch an episode on the side, go to the bathroom'n'stuff. unless you have this big session ahead of you... XD) the bot problem needs a out pof the box solution. but i guess botting is nothing you can fix with a new gamemechanic.
When I mine, I have my own fleet (others are always welcome to join), and certainly do not want to be running around swapping out crystals when I am cleaning out a grav site.
|
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
98
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 15:35:00 -
[162] - Quote
Overall, these changes are good, but there are still some facts that need to be remembered for the Cargohold - for ALL the mining ships:
FACT: There are 16 Ore types. FACT: T2 crystals are 50 m3 each.
Leaving out Mercoxit as it's a speciality Ore, let's do some calcs with T2 crystals.
First, for you "gotta have it all whiners", that's 1,500 m3 of crystals for one "complete" set of crystals with 1 spare -- for each Strip (15 crystals * 2 * 50m3). That means (and no, this will NOT happen) you would need the following cargohold sizes: > Procurer / Skiff : 1,500 m3 > Retriever / Mackinaw : 3,000 m3 > Covetor / Hulk : CH range: 4,500 m3
So, what is REALISTICALLY being asked for?
1. For the T1 Barges, it's being asked that they be able to carry 3 Ore Crystal types + 1 spare. That is 20% of the total Ore types ( 3 / 15), Mercoxit excluded.
2. For the T2 Exhumers, it's being asked that they carry 5 Ore crystal types + 2 spares. That is 33% of the total Ore types (5 / 15), Mercoxit excluded.
Anything more than this, and you can have it delivered or dock up to get more.
From my prior post in this thead:
Quote: The Cargohold of a Barge needs to be able to hold 3 types of Ore crystals with 1 spare. The Cargohold of an Exhumer needs to be able to hold 5 types of Ore crystals with 2 spares. (see the T1 / T2 advantage progression there?)
So, let's compare: T1 crystals are 30 m3 each, T2 are 50 m3.
We'll use T2 crystal math (since they are bigger).
Cargohold Size = T2 Crystal Size * # of Strips * # of crystals (active + spares) * # of ore types
Procurer / Skiff : CH range is : 300 - 750 m3 - T1: 2 crystals / 3 ores: 50 * 1 * 2 * 3 = 300 m3 - T2: 3 crystals / 5 ores: 50 * 1 * 3 * 5 = 750 m3
Retriever / Mackinaw : CH range: 600 - 1500 m3 - T1: 2 crystals / 3 ores: 50 * 2 * 2 * 3 = 600 m3 - T2: 3 crystals / 5 ores: 50 * 2 * 3 * 5 = 1500 m3
Covetor / Hulk : CH range: 900 - 2250 m3 - T1: 2 crystals / 3 ores: 50 * 3 * 2 * 3 = 900 m3 - T2: 3 crystals / 5 ores: 50 * 3 * 3 * 5 = 2250 m3 .. Either reduce crystal size or increase the cargoholds - it's that simple.
Combat vessels - which specialize in shooting things - can carry up to 8 different types of ammo.
Mining vessels - which specialize in gathering Ore - need the same relative flexibility - to carry a sub-set of crystals - as I have pointed out.
CCP Devs - take a hard look at these numbers & crystal sizes before finalizing any cargohold changes, please. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Arctos Canis
Ice Wolves
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 15:42:00 -
[163] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Arctos Canis wrote:So everyone is just raging here about the 500m3 in hulks cargo hold :) but no one is even remotely raging about nerfed ice mining outputs and profit drops per same time spent mining it :) as mack looses ice mining barge role, after patche rest wont gonna compare to it. I wounder how is that so? the hulk was never that far behind the mackinaw anyway, not to mention ice is the most afkable mining out there, it's really not an issue. especially since we've also got new ice mining rigs.
lots of ice miners made calculations with the new rig and the statistics still go lower then current effective yield we get. and after patch hulk will be best yield exumer for ice not considering tank. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
239
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 15:47:00 -
[164] - Quote
Arctos Canis wrote:Dave stark wrote:Arctos Canis wrote:So everyone is just raging here about the 500m3 in hulks cargo hold :) but no one is even remotely raging about nerfed ice mining outputs and profit drops per same time spent mining it :) as mack looses ice mining barge role, after patche rest wont gonna compare to it. I wounder how is that so? the hulk was never that far behind the mackinaw anyway, not to mention ice is the most afkable mining out there, it's really not an issue. especially since we've also got new ice mining rigs. lots of ice miners made calculations with the new rig and the statistics still go lower then current effective yield we get. and after patch hulk will be best yield exumer for ice not considering tank.
it won't be much lower. as i said, the hulk was only like 4 blocks/hour behind the mackinaw as it was. the bonus for cycle time on ice harvesters has gone from 3% per level to 4% per level, closing that gap further, add in the new ice rigs and i refuse to believe that ice yield has dropped that much below what you can currently get from a mackinaw.
feel free to present the maths that proves me wrong, i welcome it, i love me a bit of maths. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
99
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 16:15:00 -
[165] - Quote
Arctos Canis wrote:So everyone is just raging here about the 500m3 in hulks cargo hold :) but no one is even remotely raging about nerfed ice mining outputs and profit drops per same time spent mining it :) as mack looses ice mining barge role, after patche rest wont gonna compare to it. I wounder how is that so? The hulk is getting most of the attention on this issue, it does apply to ALL the barges.
The reason everyone is "raging" about the cargoholds is because it's something quickly identifable with these new changes only having been out for a bit over a day or two now.
The speciality Ore / Ice mining will receive their notes as soon as people have had adequate time to test out fits and such on SiSi. I'd expect to see more charts / tables / comparisons in the next few days on these other issues.
But for now, we're just trying to make sense of the initial changes.
As long as CCP is reading this thread and listening to us, we should see some more changes. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
120
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 16:39:00 -
[166] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Arctos Canis wrote:Dave stark wrote:Arctos Canis wrote:So everyone is just raging here about the 500m3 in hulks cargo hold :) but no one is even remotely raging about nerfed ice mining outputs and profit drops per same time spent mining it :) as mack looses ice mining barge role, after patche rest wont gonna compare to it. I wounder how is that so? the hulk was never that far behind the mackinaw anyway, not to mention ice is the most afkable mining out there, it's really not an issue. especially since we've also got new ice mining rigs. lots of ice miners made calculations with the new rig and the statistics still go lower then current effective yield we get. and after patch hulk will be best yield exumer for ice not considering tank. it won't be much lower. as i said, the hulk was only like 4 blocks/hour behind the mackinaw as it was. the bonus for cycle time on ice harvesters has gone from 3% per level to 4% per level, closing that gap further, add in the new ice rigs and i refuse to believe that ice yield has dropped that much below what you can currently get from a mackinaw. feel free to present the maths that proves me wrong, i welcome it, i love me a bit of maths. edit; if the maths in halada's mining guide still holds (which i assume it does) you get 36 ice/hour with the hulk, and 44 ice/hour with the mackinaw. infact, they are using ihu I in his calculations, with ihu II the hulk is getting 39 ice. the mackinaw is getting 48 after the changes the hulk will mine 48 ice/hour. 500*0.75(ice harvesting v)*0.8(exhumer v)*0.8281(2x ihu II)*0.88(new ice rig) = 218.blah cycle time = 16 cycles an hour = 48 ice per hour as you see, ice yield is unchanged.
Mack only gets 1 cube/harvester instead of 2 cubes/harvester after the change. It will be far behind Hulk in ice mining. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
239
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 16:43:00 -
[167] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Dave stark wrote:Arctos Canis wrote:Dave stark wrote:Arctos Canis wrote:So everyone is just raging here about the 500m3 in hulks cargo hold :) but no one is even remotely raging about nerfed ice mining outputs and profit drops per same time spent mining it :) as mack looses ice mining barge role, after patche rest wont gonna compare to it. I wounder how is that so? the hulk was never that far behind the mackinaw anyway, not to mention ice is the most afkable mining out there, it's really not an issue. especially since we've also got new ice mining rigs. lots of ice miners made calculations with the new rig and the statistics still go lower then current effective yield we get. and after patch hulk will be best yield exumer for ice not considering tank. it won't be much lower. as i said, the hulk was only like 4 blocks/hour behind the mackinaw as it was. the bonus for cycle time on ice harvesters has gone from 3% per level to 4% per level, closing that gap further, add in the new ice rigs and i refuse to believe that ice yield has dropped that much below what you can currently get from a mackinaw. feel free to present the maths that proves me wrong, i welcome it, i love me a bit of maths. edit; if the maths in halada's mining guide still holds (which i assume it does) you get 36 ice/hour with the hulk, and 44 ice/hour with the mackinaw. infact, they are using ihu I in his calculations, with ihu II the hulk is getting 39 ice. the mackinaw is getting 48 after the changes the hulk will mine 48 ice/hour. 500*0.75(ice harvesting v)*0.8(exhumer v)*0.8281(2x ihu II)*0.88(new ice rig) = 218.blah cycle time = 16 cycles an hour = 48 ice per hour as you see, ice yield is unchanged. Mack only gets 1 cube/harvester instead of 2 cubes/harvester after the change. It will be far behind Hulk in ice mining.
yes, which is intended.
i was comparing the pre-change mackinaw to the post change hulk, they both do 48 ice per hour. ice mining is effectively unchanged.
Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Arctos Canis
Ice Wolves
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 16:56:00 -
[168] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Arctos Canis wrote:Dave stark wrote:Arctos Canis wrote:So everyone is just raging here about the 500m3 in hulks cargo hold :) but no one is even remotely raging about nerfed ice mining outputs and profit drops per same time spent mining it :) as mack looses ice mining barge role, after patche rest wont gonna compare to it. I wounder how is that so? the hulk was never that far behind the mackinaw anyway, not to mention ice is the most afkable mining out there, it's really not an issue. especially since we've also got new ice mining rigs. lots of ice miners made calculations with the new rig and the statistics still go lower then current effective yield we get. and after patch hulk will be best yield exumer for ice not considering tank. it won't be much lower. as i said, the hulk was only like 4 blocks/hour behind the mackinaw as it was. the bonus for cycle time on ice harvesters has gone from 3% per level to 4% per level, closing that gap further, add in the new ice rigs and i refuse to believe that ice yield has dropped that much below what you can currently get from a mackinaw. feel free to present the maths that proves me wrong, i welcome it, i love me a bit of maths. edit; if the maths in halada's mining guide still holds (which i assume it does) you get 36 ice/hour with the hulk, and 44 ice/hour with the mackinaw. infact, they are using ihu I in his calculations, with ihu II the hulk is getting 39 ice. the mackinaw is getting 48 after the changes the hulk will mine 48 ice/hour. 500*0.75(ice harvesting v)*0.8(exhumer v)*0.8281(2x ihu II)*0.88(new ice rig) = 218.blah cycle time = 16 cycles an hour = 48 ice per hour as you see, ice yield is unchanged. my post Nr. 99 in this thread has the calculations :) feel free to read. its based on how fast u can mine one block and afterwords its simple math u can convert thous numbers what ever way u want to houerly block rate and so on.. all the skills are LVL5 including max skilled orca and impacting modules named also midclass yeti implant was on while i tested so mentioned it too. (P.S. these results are from LIVE test from bouth servers) |
Stefan1978
Buddel und Schuerf - Mining Corp
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 17:41:00 -
[169] - Quote
After 24 Hours, i have had time to calm down and now i have the solution.
Hulk 0m-¦ for all and 0m-¦ for Ore
And lets mining till 8 August and then sell Minerals for little bit higher Price than normal. No i am fine with these **** from CCP. |
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
185
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 17:47:00 -
[170] - Quote
There seem to be some recurring themes that I'll address without quoting a wall of undented text: 1) insuffucuent space for crystals: While I agree it would better to have max crystal storage space for flexibility as a soloist, in a fleet you can just assign boats to ONLY certain rocks such that each boat only needs a few different crystals. ALso, I know it's archaic, but you can have your hauler jettison crystals for you and/or refit if you have to haul solo style. DOes not seem like a big issue to me. 2) Mining is boring: Yes it is. I personally prefer longer cycles so I can relax, sip barley wine, read a book, and occassionally look at my screen and tweak things. My main is the Orca pilot in our fleet Ops for this very reason. But when I tested the Mack out on SiSi, I was really liking the long cycle times and huge ore bay so I could enjoy some quality time with a good book while doing otherwise brainless mining. Faster cycle/jettison/move ore times would only make STOP mining. I couldn't do it - it's mindless keystroking. The new Mack is just what the doctor ordered from my perspective. I finally can give CCP some applause. 3) Ice yield Yup - the Mack is the loser. Hulk is the winner. I got back on SiSI and mined ice in 0.0. The Mack is a pathetic shade of it's former self. The Hulk is fine at ice though in terms of yield. Looks like CCP wants the gankers to still have ice mining bots available as paper thin tanked gank bait. I think it fits the new "role" based functions for each boat. I'm good with that. Yes - it means ice mining is just as dangerous as it was before IF you want max yield. Or, use the Mack wirth a good tank and less yield more safely. It's your choice - but I am glad we have these choices available now. 4) Rigs determine the role: This bugs me a little. It eans you have to buy two boats and rig them differently if you want to mine ice compared to ore. Ditto for Merx. Since this is no different than before (Hulk = ore / Mack = ice) I guess I'm okay with that part of it.
The part I don't like is that if I burn a rig slot for an Ice thingy, my tank is wimpier. This defeats the new role of the Mack and therefore should not be done in this way. One strange idea is to allow the mining rigs to be removed without destruction, but I'll bet that would be a hot button item for some people. |
|
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
247
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 17:59:00 -
[171] - Quote
Arctos Canis wrote:Dave stark wrote:Arctos Canis wrote:Dave stark wrote:Arctos Canis wrote:So everyone is just raging here about the 500m3 in hulks cargo hold :) but no one is even remotely raging about nerfed ice mining outputs and profit drops per same time spent mining it :) as mack looses ice mining barge role, after patche rest wont gonna compare to it. I wounder how is that so? the hulk was never that far behind the mackinaw anyway, not to mention ice is the most afkable mining out there, it's really not an issue. especially since we've also got new ice mining rigs. lots of ice miners made calculations with the new rig and the statistics still go lower then current effective yield we get. and after patch hulk will be best yield exumer for ice not considering tank. it won't be much lower. as i said, the hulk was only like 4 blocks/hour behind the mackinaw as it was. the bonus for cycle time on ice harvesters has gone from 3% per level to 4% per level, closing that gap further, add in the new ice rigs and i refuse to believe that ice yield has dropped that much below what you can currently get from a mackinaw. feel free to present the maths that proves me wrong, i welcome it, i love me a bit of maths. edit; if the maths in halada's mining guide still holds (which i assume it does) you get 36 ice/hour with the hulk, and 44 ice/hour with the mackinaw. infact, they are using ihu I in his calculations, with ihu II the hulk is getting 39 ice. the mackinaw is getting 48 after the changes the hulk will mine 48 ice/hour. 500*0.75(ice harvesting v)*0.8(exhumer v)*0.8281(2x ihu II)*0.88(new ice rig) = 218.blah cycle time = 16 cycles an hour = 48 ice per hour as you see, ice yield is unchanged. my post Nr. 99 in this thread has the calculations :) feel free to read. its based on how fast u can mine one block and afterwords its simple math u can convert thous numbers what ever way u want to houerly block rate and so on.. all the skills are LVL5 including max skilled orca and impacting modules named also midclass yeti implant was on while i tested so mentioned it too. (P.S. these results are from LIVE test from bouth servers)
if you give me some time i'll plug numbers in and figure out the blocks/hour with orca bonuses and 3% implant. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Gevlin
SMANews.net SpaceMonkey's Alliance
174
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 18:17:00 -
[172] - Quote
Infinite Force wrote:Overall, these changes are good, but there are still some facts that need to be remembered for the Cargohold - for ALL the mining ships: FACT: There are 16 Ore types. FACT: T2 crystals are 50 m3 each. Leaving out Mercoxit as it's a speciality Ore, let's do some calcs with T2 crystals. First, for you "gotta have it all whiners", that's 1,500 m3 of crystals for one "complete" set of crystals with 1 spare -- for each Strip (15 crystals * 2 * 50m3). That means (and no, this will NOT happen) you would need the following cargohold sizes: > Procurer / Skiff : 1,500 m3 > Retriever / Mackinaw : 3,000 m3 > Covetor / Hulk : CH range: 4,500 m3 So, what is REALISTICALLY being asked for? 1. For the T1 Barges, it's being asked that they be able to carry 3 Ore Crystal types + 1 spare. That is 20% of the total Ore types ( 3 / 15), Mercoxit excluded. 2. For the T2 Exhumers, it's being asked that they carry 5 Ore crystal types + 2 spares. That is 33% of the total Ore types (5 / 15), Mercoxit excluded. Anything more than this, and you can have it delivered or dock up to get more. From my prior post in this thead: Quote: The Cargohold of a Barge needs to be able to hold 3 types of Ore crystals with 1 spare. The Cargohold of an Exhumer needs to be able to hold 5 types of Ore crystals with 2 spares. (see the T1 / T2 advantage progression there?)
So, let's compare: T1 crystals are 30 m3 each, T2 are 50 m3.
We'll use T2 crystal math (since they are bigger).
Cargohold Size = T2 Crystal Size * # of Strips * # of crystals (active + spares) * # of ore types
Procurer / Skiff : CH range is : 300 - 750 m3 - T1: 2 crystals / 3 ores: 50 * 1 * 2 * 3 = 300 m3 - T2: 3 crystals / 5 ores: 50 * 1 * 3 * 5 = 750 m3
Retriever / Mackinaw : CH range: 600 - 1500 m3 - T1: 2 crystals / 3 ores: 50 * 2 * 2 * 3 = 600 m3 - T2: 3 crystals / 5 ores: 50 * 2 * 3 * 5 = 1500 m3
Covetor / Hulk : CH range: 900 - 2250 m3 - T1: 2 crystals / 3 ores: 50 * 3 * 2 * 3 = 900 m3 - T2: 3 crystals / 5 ores: 50 * 3 * 3 * 5 = 2250 m3 .. Either reduce crystal size or increase the cargoholds - it's that simple.
Combat vessels - which specialize in shooting things - can carry up to 8 different types of ammo. Mining vessels - which specialize in gathering Ore - need the same relative flexibility - to carry a sub-set of crystals - as I have pointed out. CCP Devs - take a hard look at these numbers & crystal sizes before finalizing any cargohold changes, please.
This why in null sec often Multi box miners often use miner Is , as we move the max yield we specialize in the crystals we use we will require team work to plow through a field as a group.
I am looking forward to the changes except the level bonus for the skiff and Mach, ie move away from yield increase of 1 percent to another aspect of the ship and have a increase per level that matters
Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
247
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 18:22:00 -
[173] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:if you give me some time i'll plug numbers in and figure out the blocks/hour with orca bonuses and 3% implant.
delivering results.
orca bonuses and 3% implant....
new hulk = 75/hour new mack = 62/hour (68/hour if it can support a third mlu) old mack = 72
ice yields are going up, not down if you bother to switch ship. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
172
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 18:35:00 -
[174] - Quote
Won't the Skiff mine Ice better than the Mack now?
Skiff gets 3/cycle by the bonuses, Mack only gets 2/cycle.
I'll check soon, but I need to resinstall Sisi, so maybe someone who's already on can check. |
Draconyx
Oort Cloud Industries The OORT Cloud
3
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 18:37:00 -
[175] - Quote
Unit757 wrote:Draconyx wrote:Not bad BUT
Hulk and Covetor Ore holds need to be increased so that 2 cycles can be done before you have to empty.
Here is the break down using only T1 strips, T2 Upgrades, 3% implant and without fleet bonuses.
Cycles Before Full (CBF)
Hulk (4096.59 m^3/cycle) = 1 CBF Covetor (3717.12 m^3/cycle) = 1 CBF Mackinaw (3545.20 m^3/cycle) = 10 CBF Retriever ( 3376.34 m^3/cycle) = 8 CBF Skiff ( 3252.48 m^3/cycle) = 5 CBF Procure (3097.60 m^3/cycle)r = 4 CBF
The ore hold should be based on Fleet bonuses + T2 + max yield implants.
PS - Option if you don't want to add it in for solo miners then how about adding in the bonus to one of the Command links so that you have to be in a fleet with links to get it. That works as well. The hulk is not mean't to hold more then one cycle, it is a transition point for ore between space, and the orca/rorq. If you want a ship to hold more then one cycle, use a machinaw or skiff.
One cycle, I would like to see where that is stated. I am not asking for anything even remotely close to a mack or skiff, but if you have ever done any mining just adding one more cycle can make a big difference. Examples when it will come in handy - partial cycle, waiting on Hauler, resinking lasers over time. And yes it is even more important when you have a hauler and someone running links cause your cycle time goes down which means less time. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
249
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 18:46:00 -
[176] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:Won't the Skiff mine Ice better than the Mack now?
Skiff gets 3/cycle by the bonuses, Mack only gets 2/cycle.
I'll check soon, but I need to resinstall Sisi, so maybe someone who's already on can check.
no it's identical. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Arctos Canis
Ice Wolves
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 19:03:00 -
[177] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Dave stark wrote:if you give me some time i'll plug numbers in and figure out the blocks/hour with orca bonuses and 3% implant. Orca bonus and implants and everything else were already included on LIVE testdelivering results. orca bonuses and 3% implant.... new hulk = 75/hour new mack = 63/hour (69/hour if it can support a third mlu) IT supports 3 MLU + an ICE RIGold mack = 72 ice yields are going up, not down if you bother to switch ship.
Ok so i see everyone is using blocks per hour as comparing stuff so i shall convert the numbers i had myself then...
Old mack = 73.4 block per hour (3600/49 = 73.469) new mack = 60 block per hour (3600/60 = 60) new hulk = 65 block per hour (3600/55.3 = 65) new skiff = 54 block per hour (3600/66 = 54.54)
(P.S. this is with all max boosts modules for max yield rigs and skills and so on and on and on , U can't max anything else out except a yeti implant 5% instead i used 3%) |
Arctos Canis
Ice Wolves
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 19:15:00 -
[178] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote:Won't the Skiff mine Ice better than the Mack now?
Skiff gets 3/cycle by the bonuses, Mack only gets 2/cycle.
I'll check soon, but I need to resinstall Sisi, so maybe someone who's already on can check. no it's identical.
Really happy that more people have started looking in to this :) cuz there will be a lot more people who will come to same conclusion then. Buzzy everything maxed out - numbers are like this :)
new skiff cycle time is 65.83 seconds 1block new mack cycle time is 119.82s 2 blocks new hulk cycle time is 166.3s 3 blocks |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
312
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 19:23:00 -
[179] - Quote
remember the new rigs I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Arctos Canis
Ice Wolves
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 19:26:00 -
[180] - Quote
Denidil wrote:remember the new rigs the rigs are in sisi and they were included during test |
|
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
100
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 19:27:00 -
[181] - Quote
Gevlin wrote:This why in null sec often Multi box miners often use miner Is , as we move the max yield we specialize in the crystals we use we will require team work to plow through a field as a group.
I am looking forward to the changes except the level bonus for the skiff and Mach, ie move away from yield increase of 1 percent to another aspect of the ship and have a increase per level that matters I understand multi-boxing as I run 6-9 accounts myself. I have lived & mined in Null, Low, High and WH space - in both large (30+) and small (<10) fleets as well as solo.
These changes should be based around a fully T2 fitted Barge. If you want to use Miner I's after that, then you certainly can - but that does not mean that because you decide to use Miner I's, other must as well.
Remember that crystal sizes are based on the ORIGINAL implementation of the Barges & Exhumers.
CCP doesn't want the barges to be used as haulers anymore (I never did out side of "mining" stuff) and by implementing specialized Ore holds and significantly reducing the cargoholds, they've accomplished that.
The bottom line is still that the mining crystals (both T1 and T2) are out of whack with these new changes as they currently stand. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
312
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 19:31:00 -
[182] - Quote
Arctos Canis wrote:Denidil wrote:remember the new rigs the rigs are in sisi and they were included during test
wasn't specifically speaking to you :P
Arctos Canis wrote: new skiff cycle time is 65.83 seconds 1block new mack cycle time is 119.82s 2 blocks new hulk cycle time is 166.3s 3 blocks
skiff - 54/hour mack - 60/hour hulk - 64/hour I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
100
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 19:31:00 -
[183] - Quote
Draconyx wrote:Unit757 wrote:Draconyx wrote:Not bad BUT
Hulk and Covetor Ore holds need to be increased so that 2 cycles can be done before you have to empty.
Here is the break down using only T1 strips, T2 Upgrades, 3% implant and without fleet bonuses.
Cycles Before Full (CBF)
Hulk (4096.59 m^3/cycle) = 1 CBF Covetor (3717.12 m^3/cycle) = 1 CBF Mackinaw (3545.20 m^3/cycle) = 10 CBF Retriever ( 3376.34 m^3/cycle) = 8 CBF Skiff ( 3252.48 m^3/cycle) = 5 CBF Procure (3097.60 m^3/cycle)r = 4 CBF
The ore hold should be based on Fleet bonuses + T2 + max yield implants.
PS - Option if you don't want to add it in for solo miners then how about adding in the bonus to one of the Command links so that you have to be in a fleet with links to get it. That works as well. The hulk is not mean't to hold more then one cycle, it is a transition point for ore between space, and the orca/rorq. If you want a ship to hold more then one cycle, use a machinaw or skiff. One cycle, I would like to see where that is stated. I am not asking for anything even remotely close to a mack or skiff, but if you have ever done any mining just adding one more cycle can make a big difference. Examples when it will come in handy - partial cycle, waiting on Hauler, resinking lasers over time. And yes it is even more important when you have a hauler and someone running links cause your cycle time goes down which means less time.
This.
Ideally, every hull would start with a base Ore hold and then it would be bonused up from that based on role (like what the Ret & Mack's see).
I don't mind the changes that turn everything upside-down, but whether or not you choose to mine solo or in a fleet, 2 cycles at max yield / bonuses should be the baseline for the Ore holds. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
250
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 19:36:00 -
[184] - Quote
Arctos Canis wrote:Dave stark wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote:Won't the Skiff mine Ice better than the Mack now?
Skiff gets 3/cycle by the bonuses, Mack only gets 2/cycle.
I'll check soon, but I need to resinstall Sisi, so maybe someone who's already on can check. no it's identical. Really happy that more people have started looking in to this :) cuz there will be a lot more people who will come to same conclusion then. Buzzy everything maxed out - numbers are like this :) new skiff cycle time is 65.83 seconds 1block new mack cycle time is 119.82s 2 blocks new hulk cycle time is 166.3s 3 blocks
what are you using to get those numbers. using max skill, max yield fits, with max orca bonuses and a 3% yeti implant i'm getting the following;
old mack = 191 second cycle, 75 blocks/hour new mack = 103, 69 hulk = 143, 75 skiff = 56, 63
as we see, the old mack is better than the new mack, but it's still in line with the hulk. (if we don't round and truncate the new hulk is worse but by so little that nobody cares) Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Unit757
North Point Cannabis Legionis
12
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 19:38:00 -
[185] - Quote
Draconyx wrote:Unit757 wrote:Draconyx wrote:Not bad BUT
Hulk and Covetor Ore holds need to be increased so that 2 cycles can be done before you have to empty.
Here is the break down using only T1 strips, T2 Upgrades, 3% implant and without fleet bonuses.
Cycles Before Full (CBF)
Hulk (4096.59 m^3/cycle) = 1 CBF Covetor (3717.12 m^3/cycle) = 1 CBF Mackinaw (3545.20 m^3/cycle) = 10 CBF Retriever ( 3376.34 m^3/cycle) = 8 CBF Skiff ( 3252.48 m^3/cycle) = 5 CBF Procure (3097.60 m^3/cycle)r = 4 CBF
The ore hold should be based on Fleet bonuses + T2 + max yield implants.
PS - Option if you don't want to add it in for solo miners then how about adding in the bonus to one of the Command links so that you have to be in a fleet with links to get it. That works as well. The hulk is not mean't to hold more then one cycle, it is a transition point for ore between space, and the orca/rorq. If you want a ship to hold more then one cycle, use a machinaw or skiff. One cycle, I would like to see where that is stated. I am not asking for anything even remotely close to a mack or skiff, but if you have ever done any mining just adding one more cycle can make a big difference. Examples when it will come in handy - partial cycle, waiting on Hauler, resinking lasers over time. And yes it is even more important when you have a hauler and someone running links cause your cycle time goes down which means less time.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1481903#post1481903
"WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH THE HULK AFTER THE CHANGE? Exact modifications are still vague, but the plan is to quite reduce its cargo hold and add an ore bay of the same size than the removed cargo hold. That means cargo expanders and rigs wonGÇÖt affect the ore bay at all, requiring players to unload ore more frequently. This is by design, as we want the Hulk to be moved into a fleet purpose that has to rely on others to make proper use of its best mining output. That also means we will not be introducing items that affect the ore bay size. "
Directly from CCP. If you want something with a bigger hold, jump in a machinaw or skiff, otherwise, park your ass next to an orca, and start unloading. It is NOT a solo ship, AT ALL. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
251
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 19:40:00 -
[186] - Quote
forum fail. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Arctos Canis
Ice Wolves
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 19:58:00 -
[187] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Arctos Canis wrote:Dave stark wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote:Won't the Skiff mine Ice better than the Mack now?
Skiff gets 3/cycle by the bonuses, Mack only gets 2/cycle.
I'll check soon, but I need to resinstall Sisi, so maybe someone who's already on can check. no it's identical. Really happy that more people have started looking in to this :) cuz there will be a lot more people who will come to same conclusion then. Buzzy everything maxed out - numbers are like this :) new skiff cycle time is 65.83 seconds 1block new mack cycle time is 119.82s 2 blocks new hulk cycle time is 166.3s 3 blocks what are you using to get those numbers. using max skill, max yield fits, with max orca bonuses and a 3% yeti implant i'm getting the following; old mack = 191 second cycle, 75 blocks/hour new mack = 103, 69 hulk = 143, 75 skiff = 56, 63 as we see, the old mack is better than the new mack, but it's still in line with the hulk. (if we don't round and truncate the new hulk is worse but by so little that nobody cares) I don't understand how your numbers are lower then mine :) if we bouth use max skill,fits,boosts . that's strange
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Arctos Canis
Ice Wolves
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 20:05:00 -
[188] - Quote
Unit757 wrote:Draconyx wrote:Unit757 wrote:Draconyx wrote:Not bad BUT
Hulk and Covetor Ore holds need to be increased so that 2 cycles can be done before you have to empty.
Here is the break down using only T1 strips, T2 Upgrades, 3% implant and without fleet bonuses.
Cycles Before Full (CBF)
Hulk (4096.59 m^3/cycle) = 1 CBF Covetor (3717.12 m^3/cycle) = 1 CBF Mackinaw (3545.20 m^3/cycle) = 10 CBF Retriever ( 3376.34 m^3/cycle) = 8 CBF Skiff ( 3252.48 m^3/cycle) = 5 CBF Procure (3097.60 m^3/cycle)r = 4 CBF
The ore hold should be based on Fleet bonuses + T2 + max yield implants.
PS - Option if you don't want to add it in for solo miners then how about adding in the bonus to one of the Command links so that you have to be in a fleet with links to get it. That works as well. The hulk is not mean't to hold more then one cycle, it is a transition point for ore between space, and the orca/rorq. If you want a ship to hold more then one cycle, use a machinaw or skiff. One cycle, I would like to see where that is stated. I am not asking for anything even remotely close to a mack or skiff, but if you have ever done any mining just adding one more cycle can make a big difference. Examples when it will come in handy - partial cycle, waiting on Hauler, resinking lasers over time. And yes it is even more important when you have a hauler and someone running links cause your cycle time goes down which means less time. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1481903#post1481903"WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH THE HULK AFTER THE CHANGE? Exact modifications are still vague, but the plan is to quite reduce its cargo hold and add an ore bay of the same size than the removed cargo hold. That means cargo expanders and rigs wonGÇÖt affect the ore bay at all, requiring players to unload ore more frequently. This is by design, as we want the Hulk to be moved into a fleet purpose that has to rely on others to make proper use of its best mining output. That also means we will not be introducing items that affect the ore bay size. " Directly from CCP. If you want something with a bigger hold, jump in a machinaw or skiff, otherwise, park your ass next to an orca, and start unloading. It is NOT a solo ship, AT ALL. Quote: I don't mind the changes that turn everything upside-down, but whether or not you choose to mine solo or in a fleet, 2 cycles at max yield / bonuses should be the baseline for the Ore holds.
Why is it so hard for people to understand that the hulk IS NOT MEANT TO MINE SOLO. If the machinaw had a tiny ore bay, I'd understand your concern, but as of yet, nobody seems to have clued in to the fact that the hulk is no longer THE best all round ship. It has a role, and that's fleet yield. The mackinaw has a role, and that's solo efficiency.
funny quote from posted thread.
"WILL EXHUMER SHIP SPECIALIZATIONS BE AFFECTED BY SUCH CHANGES? Most likely not, except maybe for the Skiff as mentioned above. "
and yet mackinaw lost its primary ice mining role :) |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
172
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 20:24:00 -
[189] - Quote
Arctos Canis wrote:Dave stark wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote:Won't the Skiff mine Ice better than the Mack now?
Skiff gets 3/cycle by the bonuses, Mack only gets 2/cycle.
I'll check soon, but I need to resinstall Sisi, so maybe someone who's already on can check. no it's identical. Really happy that more people have started looking in to this :) cuz there will be a lot more people who will come to same conclusion then. Buzzy everything maxed out - numbers are like this :) new skiff cycle time is 65.83 seconds 1block new mack cycle time is 119.82s 2 blocks new hulk cycle time is 166.3s 3 blocks OK, so the 200% bonus only applies to Strip Miners not to Ice Miners (or did they take that off already and I missed it?) |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
100
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 20:28:00 -
[190] - Quote
Unit757 wrote:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1481903#post1481903 "WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH THE HULK AFTER THE CHANGE? Exact modifications are still vague, but the plan is to quite reduce its cargo hold and add an ore bay of the same size than the removed cargo hold. That means cargo expanders and rigs wonGÇÖt affect the ore bay at all, requiring players to unload ore more frequently. This is by design, as we want the Hulk to be moved into a fleet purpose that has to rely on others to make proper use of its best mining output. That also means we will not be introducing items that affect the ore bay size. " Directly from CCP. If you want something with a bigger hold, jump in a machinaw or skiff, otherwise, park your ass next to an orca, and start unloading. It is NOT a solo ship, AT ALL. Quote: I don't mind the changes that turn everything upside-down, but whether or not you choose to mine solo or in a fleet, 2 cycles at max yield / bonuses should be the baseline for the Ore holds.
Why is it so hard for people to understand that the hulk IS NOT MEANT TO MINE SOLO. If the machinaw had a tiny ore bay, I'd understand your concern, but as of yet, nobody seems to have clued in to the fact that the hulk is no longer THE best all round ship. It has a role, and that's fleet yield. The mackinaw has a role, and that's solo efficiency. LOL. Fail. Not once have I said, or implied, that the Hulk was meant as a solo mining vessel, nor did I say or imply that I want it to mine solo (that's the Mack's new role).
Quote:That means cargo expanders and rigs wonGÇÖt affect the ore bay at all, requiring players to unload ore more frequently. With the current implementation of the Hulk, you can sit for up to 15 minutes and not need to move before unloading.
Just because it's suddenly classified now as a "FLEET SHIP", doesn't suddenly mean that unloading every 3 - 4 minutes (2 fully boosted cycles) somehow breaks the concept of "fleet mining".
Open your eyes and stop thinking that all of us are "hulk" only people (start thinking outside that lame excuse box). I use all the Exhumers fairly equally, and I've said numerous times that ALL the cargoholds need to be adjusted and ALL the Ore holds should be adequate to the specialized task at hand - which, in my opinion - should be 2 fully cycles as a baseline. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
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Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
313
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 20:29:00 -
[191] - Quote
[quote=Buzzy Warstl OK, so the 200% bonus only applies to Strip Miners not to Ice Miners (or did they take that off already and I missed it?)[/quote]
here is the text from the mack
Quote: Role Bonus: 50% bonus to Strip Miner yield 33.33% reduction in Ice Harvester Duration and capacitor use
I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Ichitura
Incongruous Creations Limited
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 21:14:00 -
[192] - Quote
Will we get rig removal coupons for all the barges/exhumers that may need to be re-rigged ?
Also, one thing that drove me nuts with the old Mackinaw was that even with an 8000m3 hold one miner would always stop after the second cycle instead of filling the hold, continuing and failing if you failed to empty it by next cycle. I assume this will get worse on the Hulk with a non expandable bay. Ah like mining in a Rokh :) |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
287
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 21:34:00 -
[193] - Quote
Mining gang links on sisi appear to be messed up; when fleeting with an orca for some reason, T1 and T2 are giving me the same boost. Once I remove booster I can't seem to get it back without dropping the fleet and reforming. The range boost doesn't return either. [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG] |
Lili Lu
311
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 21:40:00 -
[194] - Quote
Ichitura wrote:Will we get rig removal coupons for all the barges/exhumers that may need to be re-rigged ?
Also, one thing that drove me nuts with the old Mackinaw was that even with an 8000m3 hold one miner would always stop after the second cycle instead of filling the hold, continuing and failing if you failed to empty it by next cycle. I assume this will get worse on the Hulk with a non expandable bay. Ah like mining in a Rokh :) Not likely. You can't seriously expect this. They change ships all the time. To have to process peoples rigs as well would probably be a bear. Regardless, medium rigs are not that much anyway. And if you used a tech II rig on your exhumer well lessson learned.
You have to stagger your lasers. The new ore holds on the skiff and mackinaw are both quite a bit larger than the old cargohold with expanders and rigs. So this should be less of an issue if you keep an eye on it.
Not sure if this would be the best thread to ask, but what is happening to the old skiff ability to mine mercoxit without an explosion? |
Lili Lu
311
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 21:41:00 -
[195] - Quote
Barbara Nichole wrote:Mining gang links on sisi appear to be messed up; when fleeting with an orca for some reason, T1 and T2 are giving me the same boost. Once I remove booster I can't seem to get it back without dropping the fleet and reforming. The range boost doesn't return either. I also wonder whether they are receiving implant bonuses too. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
589
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 21:41:00 -
[196] - Quote
Has it occurred to anyone whining that they can't hold more than three sets of crystals that maybe its intended that way? Perhaps CCP thought "Lets do it this way and if they want the convenience of more crystals, they can compromise their tank by rigging for cargo, or compromise their yield by using lows for cargo expanders." . |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
313
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 21:46:00 -
[197] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote:
Not sure if this would be the best thread to ask, but what is happening to the old skiff ability to mine mercoxit without an explosion?
it was a useless bonus - strip miners outrange the gas cloud I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
90
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 21:49:00 -
[198] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Has it occurred to anyone whining that they can't hold more than three sets of crystals that maybe its intended that way? Perhaps CCP thought "Lets do it this way and if they want the convenience of more crystals, they can compromise their tank by rigging for cargo, or compromise their yield by using lows for cargo expanders."
Or simply downgrade to T1 strips that don't use crystals? (No MLUs T2s: 4626.07, 2MLUs T1s: 4678.94)
I just hate the masochistic tendencies of CCP of throwing in something annoying just to have something annoying. At least the other changes show a great deal of love. I just wish they would find a little more love.
Drox |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
589
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 22:34:00 -
[199] - Quote
Droxlyn wrote:corestwo wrote:Has it occurred to anyone whining that they can't hold more than three sets of crystals that maybe its intended that way? Perhaps CCP thought "Lets do it this way and if they want the convenience of more crystals, they can compromise their tank by rigging for cargo, or compromise their yield by using lows for cargo expanders." Or simply downgrade to T1 strips that don't use crystals? (No MLUs T2s: 4626.07, 2MLUs T1s: 4678.94) I just hate the masochistic tendencies of CCP of throwing in something annoying just to have something annoying. At least the other changes show a great deal of love. I just wish they would find a little more love. Drox
Well, I'm sure that they hate the tendency for players (and honestly this goes for players of all types, not just miners) to have everything exactly the way they want it. . |
Draconyx
Oort Cloud Industries The OORT Cloud
4
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 22:39:00 -
[200] - Quote
Infinite Force wrote:Unit757 wrote:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1481903#post1481903 "WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH THE HULK AFTER THE CHANGE? Exact modifications are still vague, but the plan is to quite reduce its cargo hold and add an ore bay of the same size than the removed cargo hold. That means cargo expanders and rigs wonGÇÖt affect the ore bay at all, requiring players to unload ore more frequently. This is by design, as we want the Hulk to be moved into a fleet purpose that has to rely on others to make proper use of its best mining output. That also means we will not be introducing items that affect the ore bay size. " Directly from CCP. If you want something with a bigger hold, jump in a machinaw or skiff, otherwise, park your ass next to an orca, and start unloading. It is NOT a solo ship, AT ALL. Quote: I don't mind the changes that turn everything upside-down, but whether or not you choose to mine solo or in a fleet, 2 cycles at max yield / bonuses should be the baseline for the Ore holds.
Why is it so hard for people to understand that the hulk IS NOT MEANT TO MINE SOLO. If the machinaw had a tiny ore bay, I'd understand your concern, but as of yet, nobody seems to have clued in to the fact that the hulk is no longer THE best all round ship. It has a role, and that's fleet yield. The mackinaw has a role, and that's solo efficiency. LOL. Fail. Not once have I said, or implied, that the Hulk was meant as a solo mining vessel, nor did I say or imply that I want it to mine solo (that's the Mack's new role). Quote:That means cargo expanders and rigs wonGÇÖt affect the ore bay at all, requiring players to unload ore more frequently. With the current implementation of the Hulk, you can sit for up to 15 minutes and not need to move before unloading. Just because it's suddenly classified now as a "FLEET SHIP", doesn't suddenly mean that unloading every 3 - 4 minutes (2 fully boosted cycles) somehow breaks the concept of "fleet mining". Open your eyes and stop thinking that all of us are "hulk" only people (start thinking outside that lame excuse box). I use all the Exhumers fairly equally, and I've said numerous times that ALL the cargoholds need to be adjusted and ALL the Ore holds should be adequate to the specialized task at hand - which, in my opinion - should be 2 fully cycles as a baseline.
This I only get one cycle off my hulks right now cause everything is either taken up by yield increases or tank. And I fleet mine I don't solo mine so when I say it would be really nice to get 2 cycles out of a Hulk I know cause guess what I deal with the 1 cycle thing every day for I don't no how many years in high-sec and null.
This will probably be the one and only change we will ever see to these ships so ask for everything you want cause I seriously doubt there will be a second round.
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Unit757
North Point Cannabis Legionis
12
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 22:40:00 -
[201] - Quote
Infinite Force wrote:Unit757 wrote:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1481903#post1481903 "WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH THE HULK AFTER THE CHANGE? Exact modifications are still vague, but the plan is to quite reduce its cargo hold and add an ore bay of the same size than the removed cargo hold. That means cargo expanders and rigs wonGÇÖt affect the ore bay at all, requiring players to unload ore more frequently. This is by design, as we want the Hulk to be moved into a fleet purpose that has to rely on others to make proper use of its best mining output. That also means we will not be introducing items that affect the ore bay size. " Directly from CCP. If you want something with a bigger hold, jump in a machinaw or skiff, otherwise, park your ass next to an orca, and start unloading. It is NOT a solo ship, AT ALL. Quote: I don't mind the changes that turn everything upside-down, but whether or not you choose to mine solo or in a fleet, 2 cycles at max yield / bonuses should be the baseline for the Ore holds.
Why is it so hard for people to understand that the hulk IS NOT MEANT TO MINE SOLO. If the machinaw had a tiny ore bay, I'd understand your concern, but as of yet, nobody seems to have clued in to the fact that the hulk is no longer THE best all round ship. It has a role, and that's fleet yield. The mackinaw has a role, and that's solo efficiency. LOL. Fail. Not once have I said, or implied, that the Hulk was meant as a solo mining vessel, nor did I say or imply that I want it to mine solo (that's the Mack's new role). Quote:That means cargo expanders and rigs wonGÇÖt affect the ore bay at all, requiring players to unload ore more frequently. With the current implementation of the Hulk, you can sit for up to 15 minutes and not need to move before unloading. Just because it's suddenly classified now as a "FLEET SHIP", doesn't suddenly mean that unloading every 3 - 4 minutes (2 fully boosted cycles) somehow breaks the concept of "fleet mining". Open your eyes and stop thinking that all of us are "hulk" only people (start thinking outside that lame excuse box). I use all the Exhumers fairly equally, and I've said numerous times that ALL the cargo holds need to be adjusted and ALL the Ore holds should be adequate to the specialized task at hand - which, in my opinion - should be 2 fully cycles as a baseline.
In regards to the first part, I read that wrong then. I took it as you implying it specifically to the hulk.
However, for the second part, I have yet to see a reason why it needs to hold 2 cycles. I mined for almost the first 2 years of playing, using an orca, and very rarely, if ever, did I have more then one cycle inside the hulks themselves. Much like your opinion is that it should have two as a baseline, mine is that they don't. if it's meant to have a hauler or an orca with it, why does it need 2, all it really needs is the space to hold what it brings in, which it has more then enough for. |
Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
90
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 22:44:00 -
[202] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Well, I'm sure that they hate the tendency for players (and honestly this goes for players of all types, not just miners) to have everything exactly the way they want it. From a roleplaying perspective, the ship designers are idiots who if I ever found them in a bar (WiS), I'd suicide gank in a heartbeat. (Not a threat on the game designers. I'd try to bribe them with beer.) It's like the engineers calculated out the perfect number and subtracted 2 from it. And as sad as that sounds, it has happened in real life too. The original Stealth bomber designers had no computers, so they were doing the math by hand. When doing the math to maximize the fuel capacity, they got a derivative's sign backwards and instead MINIMIZED the fuel capacity. (At least that's what my Calculus teacher told us.)
Anyway, let me know when ORE hires some competent ship engineers.
Drox |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
254
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 22:49:00 -
[203] - Quote
Arctos Canis wrote:Dave stark wrote:Arctos Canis wrote:Dave stark wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote:Won't the Skiff mine Ice better than the Mack now?
Skiff gets 3/cycle by the bonuses, Mack only gets 2/cycle.
I'll check soon, but I need to resinstall Sisi, so maybe someone who's already on can check. no it's identical. Really happy that more people have started looking in to this :) cuz there will be a lot more people who will come to same conclusion then. Buzzy everything maxed out - numbers are like this :) new skiff cycle time is 65.83 seconds 1block new mack cycle time is 119.82s 2 blocks new hulk cycle time is 166.3s 3 blocks what are you using to get those numbers. using max skill, max yield fits, with max orca bonuses and a 3% yeti implant i'm getting the following; old mack = 191 second cycle, 75 blocks/hour new mack = 103, 69 hulk = 143, 75 skiff = 56, 63 as we see, the old mack is better than the new mack, but it's still in line with the hulk. (if we don't round and truncate the new hulk is worse but by so little that nobody cares) I don't understand how your numbers are lower then mine :) if we bouth use max skill,fits,boosts . that's strange
i may or may not be calculating the fleet bonus correctly. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
287
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 23:02:00 -
[204] - Quote
3 light drones for the skiff? That's kind of lacking isn't it? The hulk carries 10... shouldn't the skiff get at least 5?
[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG] |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
254
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 23:07:00 -
[205] - Quote
Barbara Nichole wrote:3 light drones for the skiff? That's kind of lacking isn't it? The hulk carries 10... shouldn't the skiff get at least 5?
skiff needs more drone space, and the hulk needs more space moving from the ore bay to regular cargo and the mining barge changes will be perfect, to be honest. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
287
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 23:20:00 -
[206] - Quote
Infinite Force wrote:Gevlin wrote:This why in null sec often Multi box miners often use miner Is , as we move the max yield we specialize in the crystals we use we will require team work to plow through a field as a group.
I am looking forward to the changes except the level bonus for the skiff and Mach, ie move away from yield increase of 1 percent to another aspect of the ship and have a increase per level that matters I understand multi-boxing as I run 6-9 accounts myself. I have lived & mined in Null, Low, High and WH space - in both large (30+) and small (<10) fleets as well as solo. These changes should be based around a fully T2 fitted Barge. If you want to use Miner I's after that, then you certainly can - but that does not mean that because you decide to use Miner I's, other must as well. Remember that crystal sizes are based on the ORIGINAL implementation of the Barges & Exhumers. CCP doesn't want the barges to be used as haulers anymore (I never did out side of "mining" stuff) and by implementing specialized Ore holds and significantly reducing the cargoholds, they've accomplished that. The bottom line is still that the mining crystals (both T1 and T2) are out of whack with these new changes as they currently stand. never used hulks as haulers myself either.. but I did on a couple of miners run hulks with a cargo expanded just enough for 2 cycles.. so I could haul to station with my orca wihtout having to drop the yield progression waiting for the orcas return. [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG] |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
79
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 23:39:00 -
[207] - Quote
I don't mind having to dump the ore every cycle when I mine, it makes the mining more active, and is why I have never like ice mining due to the long wait times on the cycles. No matter where you are when mining, you really don't want to go afk for long periods, as you will get ganked if you afk mine.
Also I like having various crystals for change up when mining, it keeps you busy when you are mining and cuts out some of the boredom.
But I don't like the idea that I would have to move my vessels around due to not being able to keep enough crystals in the hold, this is going to suck, and I really hope it was an oversight by CCP to not account for the size of the bloody crystals when they reduced the cargohold.
Reduce the size of the crystals and you will have happy miners. |
Gevlin
SMANews.net SpaceMonkey's Alliance
174
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 01:26:00 -
[208] - Quote
with the new ore hold, the rorqual will be able to hold and extra 140km3 of compressed ore with retrievers holding ore in their ore hold.
137 Cargo Hold 30 in Corp Hanger 250 K in Ore hold 140 in Retrievers that is 557mk3 in ore. veldspare is compressed at 40 to 1
22,280,000m3 of Ore Now that is a planet - divided by 7k = 3182 Covetor loads? Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
Hypercake Mix
Magical Rainbow Bakery
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 03:47:00 -
[209] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Barbara Nichole wrote:3 light drones for the skiff? That's kind of lacking isn't it? The hulk carries 10... shouldn't the skiff get at least 5?
skiff needs more drone space, and the hulk needs more space moving from the ore bay to regular cargo and the mining barge changes will be perfect, to be honest. Procurer too. Mining drones are mining yield too! Would be nice if it were 50/50 so we could run a flight of light drones too for belt rats. |
Rushuna Vash
Treasures Collectors Solar Citizens
0
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Posted - 2012.07.26 06:47:00 -
[210] - Quote
My question is, is the Hulk even worth it anymore? Is the increase in yield over the Mack worth the hassle of having a dedicated hauler?
With Macks you have the ability to haul a jetcan+ of ore back to Station/POS/Rorq. And since you're gonna have to go back and get crystals all the time now, you will have more down time to drop off your ore. Converting a hauler into another Mack might be more efficient than having a dedicated hauler.
If the hulks can't mine 24/7 with all their gear/crystals ready to go, I really don't see the point of the increase in yield. They really need to do something about the mining crystals, cause if you've ever had to clear a belt/grav site you know you need more than 3 kinds of crystals to clear it. And you do a lot of clearing of sites/belts in mining OPs, which is supposedly the Hulks role right?
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Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
261
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Posted - 2012.07.26 06:52:00 -
[211] - Quote
Rushuna Vash wrote:My question is, is the Hulk even worth it anymore? Is the increase in yield over the Mack worth the hassle of having a dedicated hauler?
With Macks you have the ability to haul a jetcan+ of ore back to Station/POS/Rorq. And since you're gonna have to go back and get crystals all the time now, you will have more down time to drop off your ore. Converting a hauler into another Mack might be more efficient than having a dedicated hauler.
If the hulks can't mine 24/7 with all their gear/crystals ready to go, I really don't see the point of the increase in yield. They really need to do something about the mining crystals, cause if you've ever had to clear a belt/grav site you know you need more than 3 kinds of crystals to clear it. And you do a lot of clearing of sites/belts in mining OPs, which is supposedly the Hulks role right?
yes, the hulk will still pull in more isk/hour solo if you can be bothered to pay attention and drag ore every 3 mins and swap to a hauler. all about effort vs reward really. the reward is there, though.
you aren't going to "go back and get crystals all the time" at all. crystals don't break every 3 cycles; you're just going to have to focus on certain ores and change crystals when you haul. inconvenient but hardly game breaking for a solo miner... in fleets when you're not docking up to swap ships etc though it's a bit of an oversight.
yes, the mackinaw will make a better hauler based on the fact that it's got more ore bay space than a fully expanded DST. however an orca gets up to 180k m3 vs the macks 37k. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Ptiht Lerdds
Stardart Enterprise Sadamisaki Coalition
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 08:36:00 -
[212] - Quote
Max orca fleet bonus + yeti +3%
Hulk 2xIHU2 + 1x ice harvester accelerator rig = 143,47s Mackinaw 3xIHU2 + 1x ice harvester accelerator rig = 103,35s
Ice harvester accelrator rig cycle time bonus -12% |
Arctos Canis
Ice Wolves
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 08:40:00 -
[213] - Quote
Ptiht Lerdds wrote:Max orca fleet bonus + yeti +3%
Hulk 2xmlu2 + ice harvester accelerator = 143,47s Mackinaw 3xMLu2 + ice harverster accelator = 103,35s These are based on numbers only? so why when u log on to sisi u only get hulk 166 and mack 119? is there something not working properly in sisi? |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
263
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 08:44:00 -
[214] - Quote
Ptiht Lerdds wrote:Max orca fleet bonus + yeti +3%
Hulk 2xIHU2 + 1x ice harvester accelerator rig = 143,47s Mackinaw 3xIHU2 + 1x ice harvester accelerator rig = 103,35s
consistent with what i'm getting.
Arctos Canis wrote: These are based on numbers only? so why when u log on to sisi u only get hulk 166 and mack 119? is there something not working properly in sisi?
i did hear fleet bonuses on sisi were a bit funky at the moment, perhaps that's why the napkin maths isn't reflecting what's happening on sisi?
also are you using a foreman implant on sisi? edit: you're missing the implant, i just removed the implant from my spreadsheet and i get the same numbers you are. mining foreman mindlink is what you need. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Yuliana Sin
Excurses Barathro
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 09:08:00 -
[215] - Quote
I'm a bit concerned about the exhumerbonus from the Skiff/Mackinaw. It renders the exhumerskill nearly pointless on them. The choice for highsec lonewolf-miners is the now Mackinaw, new miners don't have to train it past IV or even III to get full benefit from the ship alone. The direction of devaluating a rank5(!) tech2-skill cannot be a good step ... -> EvE, harsh, etc. you know. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
264
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 09:19:00 -
[216] - Quote
Yuliana Sin wrote:I'm a bit concerned about the exhumerbonus from the Skiff/Mackinaw. It renders the exhumerskill nearly pointless on them. The choice for highsec lonewolf-miners is the now Mackinaw, new miners don't have to train it past IV or even III to get full benefit from the ship alone. The direction of devaluating a rank5(!) tech2-skill cannot be a good step ... -> EvE, harsh, etc. you know.
the only people training exhumer V before the changes are people mining mercoxit, and even then mercoxit is poor isk/hour right now.
in truth; there's never really been a reason to train exhumers past III. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Yuliana Sin
Excurses Barathro
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 10:03:00 -
[217] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Yuliana Sin wrote:I'm a bit concerned about the exhumerbonus from the Skiff/Mackinaw. It renders the exhumerskill nearly pointless on them. The choice for highsec lonewolf-miners is the now Mackinaw, new miners don't have to train it past IV or even III to get full benefit from the ship alone. The direction of devaluating a rank5(!) tech2-skill cannot be a good step ... -> EvE, harsh, etc. you know. the only people training exhumer V before the changes are people mining mercoxit, and even then mercoxit is poor isk/hour right now. in truth; there's never really been a reason to train exhumers past III.
I don't think so. Albeit the current bonus is fairly low it get's even worse. Now there is no reason at all except for hulks. Providing such a high rolebonus with that low exhumerbonus is just unnecessary in my opinion.
Is it poor gamedesign? Or a even new direction to reduce the impact of (high) skills? I don't think there is currently a skill which gives only 1% bonus ... |
Arctos Canis
Ice Wolves
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 10:22:00 -
[218] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Ptiht Lerdds wrote:Max orca fleet bonus + yeti +3%
Hulk 2xIHU2 + 1x ice harvester accelerator rig = 143,47s Mackinaw 3xIHU2 + 1x ice harvester accelerator rig = 103,35s consistent with what i'm getting. Arctos Canis wrote: These are based on numbers only? so why when u log on to sisi u only get hulk 166 and mack 119? is there something not working properly in sisi?
i did hear fleet bonuses on sisi were a bit funky at the moment, perhaps that's why the napkin maths isn't reflecting what's happening on sisi? also are you using a foreman implant on sisi? edit: you're missing the implant, i just removed the implant from my spreadsheet and i get the same numbers you are. mining foreman mindlink is what you need. or warfare link specialist V that's the same bonus as the implant.
Confirming. :) Hulk 143,47s (current mack output 73 block/h < new hulk 76 block/h) Mack 103.35s Skiff 56.79s |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
80
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 10:56:00 -
[219] - Quote
All these tears about cycles to cargo etc are pretty hilarious for those of us who mined before there were barges and you had 1 minute cycles that filled your cargo entirely. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
264
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 11:14:00 -
[220] - Quote
Doddy wrote:All these tears about cycles to cargo etc are pretty hilarious for those of us who mined before there were barges and you had 1 minute cycles that filled your cargo entirely.
clearly you haven't read the problem. the distribution between cargo and ore bay means you don't have room for crystals and there's "wasted" space in the ore bay that would be much more useful as regular cargo not as part of the ore bay. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
|
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
187
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 11:47:00 -
[221] - Quote
Am I missing something? I can't find the new mining frigate on SiSi ? You know, the one in the concept art from the dev blog.
Please don't tell me that the "new" mining frigate is now the skiff? I was really looking forward to the new ship design. I'd buy one for looks, and just use it for hauling or something... |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
265
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 11:48:00 -
[222] - Quote
Urgg Boolean wrote:Am I missing something? I can't find the new mining frigate on SiSi ? You know, the one in the concept art from the dev blog.Please don't tell me that the "new" mining frigate is now the skiff? I was really looking forward to the new ship design. I'd buy one for looks, and just use it for hauling or something...
new mining ship isn't on sisi yet. there's no ore frigate in the market window menu thing at least.
hell, i don't even think the ship has a name yet, let alone a place on sisi. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Annette Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 11:58:00 -
[223] - Quote
Newest build up on Sisi
no crystal size reduction no cargobay expansion
but Ore bays on the Retreiver and Mac have been reduced and the bonus has been reduced from 10% to 5% |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
265
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 12:00:00 -
[224] - Quote
Annette Aumer wrote:Newest build up on Sisi
no crystal size reduction no cargobay expansion
but Ore bays on the Retreiver and Mac have been reduced and the bonus has been reduced from 10% to 5%
ah ****, i regret buying those mackinaws now. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
187
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 12:02:00 -
[225] - Quote
Annette Aumer wrote:Newest build up on Sisi
no crystal size reduction no cargobay expansion
but Ore bays on the Retreiver and Mac have been reduced and the bonus has been reduced from 10% to 5% Boo! Hiss!!
TBH I don't really care about the cargo bay/crystal issue. But the size of the ore bay was excellent. I'm disappointed they reduced it. As it was at 37.5K, it took roughly 30 mins to fill it up. That seemed perfect for the role of the boat. Now, it'll be less perfect. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
265
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 12:14:00 -
[226] - Quote
so that puts the retriever at 20*1.25 = 25k m3 cargo... and the mackinaw at uh... 31.25 k m3?
infact, why am i guessing? i'll check sisi. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Annette Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 13:18:00 -
[227] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:so that puts the retriever at 20*1.25 = 25k m3 cargo... and the mackinaw at uh... 31.25 k m3?
infact, why am i guessing? i'll check sisi.
mack calculations were right, but the retriever has had the ore bay increased (or i'm just being forgetful thinking it was 20k m3 to begin with) so it's 20*1.5 = 28125 m3
with the ore bays that close, the mackinaw is now redundant.
you're doing your calculation at *1.5 for the retrieiver? its 5% bonus per level not 10%? |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
265
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 13:27:00 -
[228] - Quote
Annette Aumer wrote:Dave stark wrote:so that puts the retriever at 20*1.25 = 25k m3 cargo... and the mackinaw at uh... 31.25 k m3?
infact, why am i guessing? i'll check sisi.
mack calculations were right, but the retriever has had the ore bay increased (or i'm just being forgetful thinking it was 20k m3 to begin with) so it's 20*1.5 = 28125 m3
with the ore bays that close, the mackinaw is now redundant. you're doing your calculation at *1.5 for the retrieiver? its 5% bonus per level not 10%?
i think i need more sleep. what i wrote there was absolute ******* jibberish.
let me try again; the old calculation was 20*1.5 = 30k, the new calculation is 22.5*1.25 = 28.125. for the retriever. the mackinaw has just been reduced from 37.5k to 31.25k. previously there was a 7.5k difference which is less than two cycles, however the sheer volume it has to begin with justified the difference. now the difference and the initial size has been reduced the mackinaw's only difference from the retriever is the tank; which is only better because it has to be to avoid suicide ganks which is a different subject entirely. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Annette Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 14:34:00 -
[229] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Annette Aumer wrote:Dave stark wrote:so that puts the retriever at 20*1.25 = 25k m3 cargo... and the mackinaw at uh... 31.25 k m3?
infact, why am i guessing? i'll check sisi.
mack calculations were right, but the retriever has had the ore bay increased (or i'm just being forgetful thinking it was 20k m3 to begin with) so it's 20*1.5 = 28125 m3
with the ore bays that close, the mackinaw is now redundant. you're doing your calculation at *1.5 for the retrieiver? its 5% bonus per level not 10%? i think i need more sleep. what i wrote there was absolute ******* jibberish. let me try again; the old calculation was 20*1.5 = 30k, the new calculation is 22.5*1.25 = 28.125. for the retriever. the mackinaw has just been reduced from 37.5k to 31.25k. previously there was a 7.5k difference which is less than two cycles, however the sheer volume it has to begin with justified the difference. now the difference and the initial size has been reduced the mackinaw's only difference from the retriever is the tank; which is only better because it has to be to avoid suicide ganks which is a different subject entirely.
haha yea I'm a little sad they've reduced the ore bay on the mac, it has completely removed my want for it. I'll just use a retreiver as the yield difference i'm guessing will be minimal.
/on rant as for the suicide ganking thing.. that forum post is elsewhere and is hilarious.
Of Course suicide ganking was never designed to be profitable. It was always intended as a way for people to reallllly **** people off and ruin their day.
Instead its become some form of metagaming where people calculate losses and then ruin peoples days and make them ragequit just for fun and tears AND earn money. pfft. I think thats having their cake and eating it. /off rant |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
266
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 14:41:00 -
[230] - Quote
Annette Aumer wrote:Dave stark wrote:Annette Aumer wrote:Dave stark wrote:so that puts the retriever at 20*1.25 = 25k m3 cargo... and the mackinaw at uh... 31.25 k m3?
infact, why am i guessing? i'll check sisi.
mack calculations were right, but the retriever has had the ore bay increased (or i'm just being forgetful thinking it was 20k m3 to begin with) so it's 20*1.5 = 28125 m3
with the ore bays that close, the mackinaw is now redundant. you're doing your calculation at *1.5 for the retrieiver? its 5% bonus per level not 10%? i think i need more sleep. what i wrote there was absolute ******* jibberish. let me try again; the old calculation was 20*1.5 = 30k, the new calculation is 22.5*1.25 = 28.125. for the retriever. the mackinaw has just been reduced from 37.5k to 31.25k. previously there was a 7.5k difference which is less than two cycles, however the sheer volume it has to begin with justified the difference. now the difference and the initial size has been reduced the mackinaw's only difference from the retriever is the tank; which is only better because it has to be to avoid suicide ganks which is a different subject entirely. haha yea I'm a little sad they've reduced the ore bay on the mac, it has completely removed my want for it. I'll just use a retreiver as the yield difference i'm guessing will be minimal. /on rant as for the suicide ganking thing.. that forum post is elsewhere and is hilarious. Of Course suicide ganking was never designed to be profitable. It was always intended as a way for people to reallllly **** people off and ruin their day. Instead its become some form of metagaming where people calculate losses and then ruin peoples days and make them ragequit just for fun and tears AND earn money. pfft. I think thats having their cake and eating it. /off rant
mackinaw is exhumer I requirement now, so going from a ret to a mack with bare minimum mack skills you gain less than 1 cycle of ore's space, and 1% yield bonus. and at max skill you gain less than 1 cycle of ore's space, and 5% yield. (and maybe the cpu to fit a 2nd/3rd mlu) but you're giving up all of your cpu so you can't fit tank modules Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
|
Annette Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 14:43:00 -
[231] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Annette Aumer wrote:Dave stark wrote:Annette Aumer wrote:Dave stark wrote:so that puts the retriever at 20*1.25 = 25k m3 cargo... and the mackinaw at uh... 31.25 k m3?
infact, why am i guessing? i'll check sisi.
mack calculations were right, but the retriever has had the ore bay increased (or i'm just being forgetful thinking it was 20k m3 to begin with) so it's 20*1.5 = 28125 m3
with the ore bays that close, the mackinaw is now redundant. you're doing your calculation at *1.5 for the retrieiver? its 5% bonus per level not 10%? i think i need more sleep. what i wrote there was absolute ******* jibberish. let me try again; the old calculation was 20*1.5 = 30k, the new calculation is 22.5*1.25 = 28.125. for the retriever. the mackinaw has just been reduced from 37.5k to 31.25k. previously there was a 7.5k difference which is less than two cycles, however the sheer volume it has to begin with justified the difference. now the difference and the initial size has been reduced the mackinaw's only difference from the retriever is the tank; which is only better because it has to be to avoid suicide ganks which is a different subject entirely. haha yea I'm a little sad they've reduced the ore bay on the mac, it has completely removed my want for it. I'll just use a retreiver as the yield difference i'm guessing will be minimal. /on rant as for the suicide ganking thing.. that forum post is elsewhere and is hilarious. Of Course suicide ganking was never designed to be profitable. It was always intended as a way for people to reallllly **** people off and ruin their day. Instead its become some form of metagaming where people calculate losses and then ruin peoples days and make them ragequit just for fun and tears AND earn money. pfft. I think thats having their cake and eating it. /off rant mackinaw is exhumer I requirement now, so going from a ret to a mack with bare minimum mack skills you gain less than 1 cycle of ore's space, and 1% yield bonus. and at max skill you gain less than 1 cycle of ore's space, and 5% yield. (and maybe the cpu to fit a 2nd/3rd mlu) but you're giving up all of your cpu so you can't fit tank modules
This makes me a sad panda. thats barely an upgrade at all.
|
Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
91
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 14:45:00 -
[232] - Quote
They should limit all three ships to 1 mining laser fitted and give all three ships 3 high slots. That way we could have 2 high slots for various utility high modules like cloaks, remote repair modules, autotargetting, probe launchers, etc.
That would be neat.
Drox |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
266
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 14:47:00 -
[233] - Quote
Droxlyn wrote:They should limit all three ships to 1 mining laser fitted and give all three ships 3 high slots. That way we could have 2 high slots for various utility high modules like cloaks, remote repair modules, autotargetting, probe launchers, etc.
That would be neat.
Drox
mining barges don't need utility slots, nor should they get them. however reducing all barges to 1 high slot and giving them the 200% yield bonus ala skiff we've instantly solved the crystal problem for the hulk. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
91
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 14:56:00 -
[234] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:mining barges don't need utility slots, nor should they get them. however reducing all barges to 1 high slot and giving them the 200% yield bonus ala skiff we've instantly solved the crystal problem for the hulk.
It would do that too. But if the Skiff doesn't have the ability to find its own gravi sites, then you may as well have an Orca with a probing ship in the SMB flying around with you to carry your various ships. If you want that lone skiff to go do things alone, he will need tools to do them. I'd like to put a tractor beam on the Hulk so the Orca can drop some crystals in a can and let the Hulk pilot suck them over to him.
I want the ability to make the ships a little more interesting than just ore processing machines.
(What I really wanted was a Hulk with 5 launcher and 5 turret hard points and 8 high slots (limit 3 strips, no standard mining lasers). That way, you could defend the Hulks with Hulks. But you know, you can only choose between Ganking defenseless roids and ships.)
Drox |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
266
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 15:03:00 -
[235] - Quote
Droxlyn wrote:Dave stark wrote:mining barges don't need utility slots, nor should they get them. however reducing all barges to 1 high slot and giving them the 200% yield bonus ala skiff we've instantly solved the crystal problem for the hulk. It would do that too. But if the Skiff doesn't have the ability to find its own gravi sites, then you may as well have an Orca with a probing ship in the SMB flying around with you to carry your various ships. If you want that lone skiff to go do things alone, he will need tools to do them. I'd like to put a tractor beam on the Hulk so the Orca can drop some crystals in a can and let the Hulk pilot suck them over to him. I want the ability to make the ships a little more interesting than just ore processing machines. (What I really wanted was a Hulk with 5 launcher and 5 turret hard points and 8 high slots (limit 3 strips, no standard mining lasers). That way, you could defend the Hulks with Hulks. But you know, you can only choose between Ganking defenseless roids and ships.) Drox
i'm just going to say; no, it's a mining ship not a swiss army knife. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
91
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 15:12:00 -
[236] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:
i'm just going to say; no, it's a mining ship not a swiss army knife.
One can dream, right?
I'm just saying, for as hostile of a universe that is known in-universe to be hostile, there are an awful lot of ships that lack teeth.
If I were a ship design engineer in Eve, all of my ships would be teeth with some other purpose bolted on. Are you telling me that on the acres of surface area on the Charon, there was no room for missile launcher hard points? I would have sacked that engineer on the spot, which as a Caldari, probably would have meant spacing him.
If they want more stuff to blow up in Eve, make sure everything has 5 hard points and 5 high-slots minimum.
If they want fights to last longer, give everything 10x more HP and disable the ability to self-destruct while locked.
But, that's beyond the scope of this topic.
Drox |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
322
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 15:57:00 -
[237] - Quote
Annette Aumer wrote:Newest build up on Sisi
no crystal size reduction no cargobay expansion
but Ore bays on the Retreiver and Mac have been reduced and the bonus has been reduced from 10% to 5%
DISLIKE enormous DISLIKE ... bad devs, no cookie! I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Arctos Canis
Ice Wolves
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 16:50:00 -
[238] - Quote
Denidil wrote:Annette Aumer wrote:Newest build up on Sisi
no crystal size reduction no cargobay expansion
but Ore bays on the Retreiver and Mac have been reduced and the bonus has been reduced from 10% to 5% DISLIKE enormous DISLIKE ... bad devs, no cookie!
as if the best changes we had were just scratched and downgraded ^_^ , I wounder if they even listen to the miners community :) |
Sentinel zx
Shadow Phoenix Special Forces
6
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 16:59:00 -
[239] - Quote
Droxlyn wrote:Dave stark wrote:mining barges don't need utility slots, nor should they get them. however reducing all barges to 1 high slot and giving them the 200% yield bonus ala skiff we've instantly solved the crystal problem for the hulk. It would do that too. But if the Skiff doesn't have the ability to find its own gravi sites, then you may as well have an Orca with a probing ship in the SMB flying around with you to carry your various ships. If you want that lone skiff to go do things alone, he will need tools to do them. I'd like to put a tractor beam on the Hulk so the Orca can drop some crystals in a can and let the Hulk pilot suck them over to him. I want the ability to make the ships a little more interesting than just ore processing machines. (What I really wanted was a Hulk with 5 launcher and 5 turret hard points and 8 high slots (limit 3 strips, no standard mining lasers). That way, you could defend the Hulks with Hulks. But you know, you can only choose between Ganking defenseless roids and ships.) Drox
i think giving skiff one higslot fore Core Probe Launcher at least would be great and maybe 5% increase scan strength of core probes per skill level |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
101
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 17:07:00 -
[240] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Droxlyn wrote:They should limit all three ships to 1 mining laser fitted and give all three ships 3 high slots. That way we could have 2 high slots for various utility high modules like cloaks, remote repair modules, autotargetting, probe launchers, etc.
That would be neat.
Drox mining barges don't need utility slots, nor should they get them. however reducing all barges to 1 high slot and giving them the 200% yield bonus ala skiff we've instantly solved the crystal problem for the hulk. While Stark and I have generally differing opinions on the hole cargo/ore/crystal hold issue. We both want the same thing - an update that is both FAIR and BALANCED.
If the changes were released as-is today, neither point would be addressed.
Given the nature of the mining role, being able to fit a T2 tractor beam would be nice .. an extra HS for utility and a tractor beam reduction in PG/CPU maybe? :)
1 miner and 2 utility (tractor / remote shield xfer / ?? / ?? / ??) though would be cool to see. Even if it may never happen. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
|
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
267
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 17:10:00 -
[241] - Quote
utility slots won't happen because strip miners don't take turret or launcher slots. hence any utility slot can and will be filled by an extra strip Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
91
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 17:13:00 -
[242] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:utility slots won't happen because strip miners don't take turret or launcher slots. hence any utility slot can and will be filled by an extra strip They already have some mechanism to limit mining, see the 5 gas miner limit.
Drox |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
101
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 17:14:00 -
[243] - Quote
Droxlyn wrote:Dave stark wrote:utility slots won't happen because strip miners don't take turret or launcher slots. hence any utility slot can and will be filled by an extra strip They already have some mechanism to limit mining, see the 5 gas miner limit. Drox Also, you would need a substantial PG/CPU upgrade to fit a 4th (& 5th) strip miner.
You can fit more than 5 gas miners - it's just that you can only use up to 5 (skill based). Once you can use 5, there's really no reason to use T1 gas miners anymore too. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
267
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 17:21:00 -
[244] - Quote
Droxlyn wrote:Dave stark wrote:utility slots won't happen because strip miners don't take turret or launcher slots. hence any utility slot can and will be filled by an extra strip They already have some mechanism to limit mining, see the 5 gas miner limit. Drox
that's a limit on the module, not the ship. hence the hulk would be the only one to have a utility slot. or is it a skill limit?
either way it's not a ship limit. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
81
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 17:25:00 -
[245] - Quote
It would be nice to hear some feedback from the dev's regarding the size of the crystals and the small cargo hold that is available to store them, is this intentional, or an oversight? |
Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
91
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 17:34:00 -
[246] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Droxlyn wrote:Dave stark wrote:utility slots won't happen because strip miners don't take turret or launcher slots. hence any utility slot can and will be filled by an extra strip They already have some mechanism to limit mining, see the 5 gas miner limit. Drox that's a limit on the module, not the ship. hence the hulk would be the only one to have a utility slot. or is it a skill limit? either way it's not a ship limit.
There are a couple ways to do it: Add 2 more slots to all of the ships and have built-in limits to the miners that match the current. OR give all three ships 3 high slots and limit them all to one mining module and duplicate the Skiff's Role bonuses to all the ships.
I'd like the Skiff to be the Cov-Ops/Blockade Runner (Can fit Cov-ops cloak), the Mack to be the Deep Space Transport (Space+warp stab+EHP), and the Hulk to be the Freighter (Max Yield) of Mining ships.
Drox |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
267
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 17:37:00 -
[247] - Quote
Droxlyn wrote:Dave stark wrote:Droxlyn wrote:Dave stark wrote:utility slots won't happen because strip miners don't take turret or launcher slots. hence any utility slot can and will be filled by an extra strip They already have some mechanism to limit mining, see the 5 gas miner limit. Drox that's a limit on the module, not the ship. hence the hulk would be the only one to have a utility slot. or is it a skill limit? either way it's not a ship limit. There are a couple ways to do it: Add 2 more slots to all of the ships and have built-in limits to the miners that match the current. OR give all three ships 3 high slots and limit them all to one mining module and duplicate the Skiff's Role bonuses to all the ships. I'd like the Skiff to be the Cov-Ops/Blockade Runner (Can fit Cov-ops cloak), the Mack to be the Deep Space Transport (Space+warp stab+EHP), and the Hulk to be the Freighter (Max Yield) of Mining ships. Drox
i'd rather they were mining ships, personally. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Murl
Pulse Industries Knights Collective
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 17:54:00 -
[248] - Quote
Here i was getting so excited about the Mack and it's ore hold...
Come on ccp...give it back....pls |
Javajunky
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
31
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 17:59:00 -
[249] - Quote
Wow I mention a problem with Cargo Hold and mining crystal and I cannot believe how many people literally came out of the wood work to protest fixing what actually just got broken.
Yes it is fairly reasonable for the Holk to have accomdation for a full set of mining crystals.
it's not like anyone is asking for more... most of us just want what was already there.... Personally when I undock each hulk has a set of crystals, so I undock roughly 18,000 m3 worth of crystals just in my hulks and I carry another 5K in my Rorq that's hauling.
Really why is such a problem? No one has even posited a valid reason why it's unfair to leave an existing condition in game, why is it unreasonable that the top yield ship have the flexibility to retool based on having a full stock of crystals.
Just change them to 5m3 or 10m3 for a T2 problem solved. |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
101
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 18:12:00 -
[250] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Droxlyn wrote:Dave stark wrote:Droxlyn wrote:Dave stark wrote:utility slots won't happen because strip miners don't take turret or launcher slots. hence any utility slot can and will be filled by an extra strip They already have some mechanism to limit mining, see the 5 gas miner limit. Drox that's a limit on the module, not the ship. hence the hulk would be the only one to have a utility slot. or is it a skill limit? either way it's not a ship limit. There are a couple ways to do it: Add 2 more slots to all of the ships and have built-in limits to the miners that match the current. OR give all three ships 3 high slots and limit them all to one mining module and duplicate the Skiff's Role bonuses to all the ships. I'd like the Skiff to be the Cov-Ops/Blockade Runner (Can fit Cov-ops cloak), the Mack to be the Deep Space Transport (Space+warp stab+EHP), and the Hulk to be the Freighter (Max Yield) of Mining ships. Drox i'd rather they were mining ships, personally. Yes, but Drox has a great 'role' idea there.
Think on this: - How fun would Ninja mining be in low / null sec for a Fleet of Cloaky skiffs be? Black Op them in and go to work. - The Mack is already becoming a DST-like miner with its new Ore hold size. - The Hulk is still the 'max yield'.
While fitting 1 or 3 strips on all the miners might make the artist's life a bit messy, it should make the programming of it all a bit easier. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
|
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
101
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 18:14:00 -
[251] - Quote
Javajunky wrote:Wow I mention a problem with Cargo Hold and mining crystal and I cannot believe how many people literally came out of the wood work to protest fixing what actually just got broken.
Yes it is fairly reasonable for the Holk to have accomdation for a full set of mining crystals.
it's not like anyone is asking for more... most of us just want what was already there.... Personally when I undock each hulk has a set of crystals, so I undock roughly 18,000 m3 worth of crystals just in my hulks and I carry another 5K in my Rorq that's hauling.
Really why is such a problem? No one has even posited a valid reason why it's unfair to leave an existing condition in game, why is it unreasonable that the top yield ship have the flexibility to retool based on having a full stock of crystals.
Just change them to 5m3 or 10m3 for a T2 problem solved. How many hulks are you undocking? I've mined quite a bit in my time, and I never carry more than 5 Ore types (+ spares) in my hold - and usually, just 3 or 4 depending on my mood. No more than about 1,500 m3.
Any yes, 5m3 / 10m3 for crystals is what should be pushed for. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Sudhana
Universal Exports
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 18:49:00 -
[252] - Quote
Whatever Implementation of CCP on mining Barges/Exhumers, Poor miners just have to endure with them.
May I request CCP dev to mine in game as a "normal" character for at least one month - a few hours every day.
Perhaps then you will truly understand the needs of a miner in eve. May you & your loved ones be well & happy. With respect, Sudhana
|
Arctos Canis
Ice Wolves
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 19:39:00 -
[253] - Quote
Sudhana wrote:Whatever Implementation of CCP on mining Barges/Exhumers, Poor miners just have to endure with them.
May I request CCP dev to mine in game as a "normal" character for at least one month - a few hours every day.
Perhaps then you will truly understand the needs of a miner in eve.
they already understand it :) cuz they are trying to do something about it to make it more comfortable . But the problem is that they don't listen to the miner base players who are already saying what kind off issues we gonna be facing with the upcoming changes. Main issue is hulks hold for crystals which should be addressed the rest can be bered with... |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
81
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 20:18:00 -
[254] - Quote
With the current bay size on the hulks, I have to plan out which rocks I am going to hit first and make sure I have those crystals in the hold, I have to figure this out for each of my hulks before undocking. If its a long run I usually end up making a trip back to the station to change out the crystals for the new tagets I line up.
It would be nice to be able to just lug around a full set of crystals, and it would eliminate some of the clutter in my station if I could just leave all the crystals in the hulk.
So make the crystals small and be done with it. 8) |
Noslen Nosilla
Federal Logistics Initiative Conglomerate
7
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 20:34:00 -
[255] - Quote
Mortimer Civeri wrote:Dave stark wrote:Mortimer Civeri wrote:500m3 is all you need for crystals. That will give you enough space for 10 T2 crystals, or 16 T1. T2 crystals in a Hulk/Covetor can be configured for 3 sets plus 1 spare crystal of your most important type, or two sets plus two spare of each set. T1 crystals can have 4 sets with a spare for each, or three sets with a full replacement for one set and two spare crystals for the other two sets.
This bullspit about, "I NEED A FULL SET OF EVERY ORE TYPE CRYSTAL IN MY HOLD OMG!!!!!1" is hogwash. Any competent miner is only going to go after a few ore types ( the ones that have high ISK/m3 ) anyway. Miner/Producers, are going to mine the highest ISK/m3 ore they can and sell what they don't use to buy the minerals that they do need, so again limiting the range of ores to just a few which can be easily covered by a limited crystal set in a 500m3 cargo hold. any competent miner [in a hulk] will be in a fleet stripping belts of everything, there's at least 4 ores per belt in high sec alone, then when we get to grav sites etc that goes up. in 0.0 you WILL mine everything including the hideous spodumain in order to cycle the grav site. so yes, you do need a full set of crystals in a hulk, pehaps not in a mack or skiff, but you do in a hulk. Psst, I bolded the part YOU DIDN'T READ. That takes care of the highsec belts. As for 0.0, haulers can shuttle crystals as needed from a Roqal or Orca that is safely in a POS, or if you want to John Wayne it, the rat tank can shuttle the crystals from the Orca or Roqal in the gravametric site (never EVER have them in the site, ever, unless you want to show people a hilarious lossmail.)
Actually you can only carry 9 T2 crystals in your Hulk cargohold if you have 10 in your carghold you can't change a crystal because your cargohold is full...go ahead try it I'll wait. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
331
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 22:28:00 -
[256] - Quote
man those mining crystals REALLY need their size cut.. badly. I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Omnathious Deninard
M'Tar Logistics Division Night Sky Alliance
26
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 22:36:00 -
[257] - Quote
On a different topic I would like to the the Retriever and Mackinaw have a bonus to survey scanners scan range (25-50% per level), being they are for independent mining this kind of bonus would be a benefit to the ship. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
274
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 23:15:00 -
[258] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:On a different topic I would like to the the Retriever and Mackinaw have a bonus to survey scanners scan range (25-50% per level), being they are for independent mining this kind of bonus would be a benefit to the ship.
not really, when you've only got 15km range any thing past 15k is irrelevant. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
102
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 23:20:00 -
[259] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:On a different topic I would like to the the Retriever and Mackinaw have a bonus to survey scanners scan range (25-50% per level), being they are for independent mining this kind of bonus would be a benefit to the ship. not really, when you've only got 15km range any thing past 15k is irrelevant. Only if solo. With a maxed booster, you're getting 25+ (I think 29 is absolute max with the right implants). HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
274
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 23:22:00 -
[260] - Quote
Infinite Force wrote:Dave stark wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:On a different topic I would like to the the Retriever and Mackinaw have a bonus to survey scanners scan range (25-50% per level), being they are for independent mining this kind of bonus would be a benefit to the ship. not really, when you've only got 15km range any thing past 15k is irrelevant. Only if solo. With a maxed booster, you're getting 25+ (I think 29 is absolute max with the right implants).
then fit a t2 scanner :) Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
|
Omnathious Deninard
M'Tar Logistics Division Night Sky Alliance
27
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 23:31:00 -
[261] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Infinite Force wrote:Dave stark wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:On a different topic I would like to the the Retriever and Mackinaw have a bonus to survey scanners scan range (25-50% per level), being they are for independent mining this kind of bonus would be a benefit to the ship. not really, when you've only got 15km range any thing past 15k is irrelevant. Only if solo. With a maxed booster, you're getting 25+ (I think 29 is absolute max with the right implants). then fit a t2 scanner :) if i am going to mine solo then and with limited crystal space then it would be nice to be able to see how big each asteroid is of the crystals that i have in my cargo hold, to do that 22.5k from a t2 scanner is not going to work |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
275
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 23:33:00 -
[262] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Dave stark wrote:Infinite Force wrote:Dave stark wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:On a different topic I would like to the the Retriever and Mackinaw have a bonus to survey scanners scan range (25-50% per level), being they are for independent mining this kind of bonus would be a benefit to the ship. not really, when you've only got 15km range any thing past 15k is irrelevant. Only if solo. With a maxed booster, you're getting 25+ (I think 29 is absolute max with the right implants). then fit a t2 scanner :) if i am going to mine solo then and with limited crystal space then it would be nice to be able to see how big each asteroid is of the crystals that i have in my cargo hold, to do that 22.5k from a t2 scanner is not going to work why isn't it? Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Omnathious Deninard
M'Tar Logistics Division Night Sky Alliance
27
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 23:37:00 -
[263] - Quote
cherry picking |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
275
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 23:39:00 -
[264] - Quote
what? i understand what cherry picking, but i fail to see how that relates in anyway to scanners. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Omnathious Deninard
M'Tar Logistics Division Night Sky Alliance
27
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 23:42:00 -
[265] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:what? i understand what cherry picking, but i fail to see how that relates in anyway to scanners. this roid only has 500 units left, i wont waste my time on it when the roid 28k away has 35k units left, a unbonused t2 scanner wont grab that, a bounsed scanner would also let you know if there were any for example kernite roids left worth mining, if not fill a load with other roids and when you dock drop off the kernite crystals and grab something else |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
275
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 23:45:00 -
[266] - Quote
or just do a partial cycle on the asteroid with only 500 units left then move on... that way it doesn't matter about the asteroid 28km away, and you're not leaving ore behind. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Omnathious Deninard
M'Tar Logistics Division Night Sky Alliance
27
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 23:51:00 -
[267] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:or just do a partial cycle on the asteroid with only 500 units left then move on... that way it doesn't matter about the asteroid 28km away, and you're not leaving ore behind. and you will cap out if you keep partial cycling roids and changing out crystals so you dont have to move from 15k away |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
275
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 23:53:00 -
[268] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Dave stark wrote:or just do a partial cycle on the asteroid with only 500 units left then move on... that way it doesn't matter about the asteroid 28km away, and you're not leaving ore behind. and you will cap out if you keep partial cycling roids and changing out crystals so you dont have to move from 15k away
what kind of crap have you got running on your hulk? i'm cap stable at 75% or so. i don't even have the cap capacity or cap recharge skills to V. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Omnathious Deninard
M'Tar Logistics Division Night Sky Alliance
27
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 23:55:00 -
[269] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Dave stark wrote:or just do a partial cycle on the asteroid with only 500 units left then move on... that way it doesn't matter about the asteroid 28km away, and you're not leaving ore behind. and you will cap out if you keep partial cycling roids and changing out crystals so you dont have to move from 15k away what kind of crap have you got running on your hulk? i'm cap stable at 75% or so. i don't even have the cap capacity or cap recharge skills to V. Hulk? we are talking about a bonus to the mack/retreiver a bonus on the hulk would be beyond pointless |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
275
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 23:56:00 -
[270] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Dave stark wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Dave stark wrote:or just do a partial cycle on the asteroid with only 500 units left then move on... that way it doesn't matter about the asteroid 28km away, and you're not leaving ore behind. and you will cap out if you keep partial cycling roids and changing out crystals so you dont have to move from 15k away what kind of crap have you got running on your hulk? i'm cap stable at 75% or so. i don't even have the cap capacity or cap recharge skills to V. Hulk? we are talking about a bonus to the mack/retreiver a bonus on the hulk would be beyond pointless yes, good point.
not sure what the cap is like on a mack but it's got 1 less strip to activate and reload. *shrug* even less of an issue. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
|
Omnathious Deninard
M'Tar Logistics Division Night Sky Alliance
27
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 00:01:00 -
[271] - Quote
it would still be worth while to get a survey range bonus on the mack/retriever if for no other reason than it role as a solo miner, no orca to do that thing for you. form another prospective it means one less tank module |
Blahstress
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 13:18:00 -
[272] - Quote
Infinite Force wrote:Dave stark wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:On a different topic I would like to the the Retriever and Mackinaw have a bonus to survey scanners scan range (25-50% per level), being they are for independent mining this kind of bonus would be a benefit to the ship. not really, when you've only got 15km range any thing past 15k is irrelevant. Only if solo. With a maxed booster, you're getting 25+ (I think 29 is absolute max with the right implants).
The limited range on the T2 scanner is a huge pass in the ***
Its get annoying to have a scanner that only shows you 22km when your laser range in 25km.
Personally I think the Orca/Rorq scanner range bonus should be removed and added as a fleet bonus.
As for storing crystals in the Hulk... thats what the corp hanger in the Orca is for. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Comic Mischief
858
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 13:25:00 -
[273] - Quote
All exhumers have had their cargo reduced to 350. But T2 crystals are now 25 cu m http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
81
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 13:30:00 -
[274] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:All exhumers have had their cargo reduced to 350. But T2 crystals are now 25 cu m
Meh
Thats only a dozen crystals!
But better than before.
Be nice to see better scanners though, or range bonus.
My lasers hit out over 29k with my rorq running, but no way of knowing what is in those rocks out there.
|
Sheynan
Lighting the blight
30
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 14:46:00 -
[275] - Quote
...this will never end cause I want more, more give me more, give me more...
*whistles* |
Janet Patton
Brony Express
27
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 15:19:00 -
[276] - Quote
Do Exhumers have 100% EM resistance now?
http://pastebin.com/fnuau8HH Why do I have this sig? I don't smoke. |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
102
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 15:23:00 -
[277] - Quote
Blahstress wrote:Infinite Force wrote:Dave stark wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:On a different topic I would like to the the Retriever and Mackinaw have a bonus to survey scanners scan range (25-50% per level), being they are for independent mining this kind of bonus would be a benefit to the ship. not really, when you've only got 15km range any thing past 15k is irrelevant. Only if solo. With a maxed booster, you're getting 25+ (I think 29 is absolute max with the right implants). The limited range on the T2 scanner is a huge pass in the *** Its get annoying to have a scanner that only shows you 22km when your laser range in 25km. Personally I think the Orca/Rorq scanner range bonus should be removed and added as a fleet bonus. As for storing crystals in the Hulk... thats what the corp hanger in the Orca is for. Yes, scanners should have the the same, if not more of a range, than what you can actually mine from. The bonus should not become a "fleet" bonus, sorry.
The Orca pilot is for hauling away my Ore, not my personal butler. Why don't you try mining in Null / Low / Wh space some time. You don't park an Orca pilot near your ships - it's only there long enough to pickup what you're jetting - and then it's a "get in, grab the ore, get out" - bothering with extra crystal logistics adds to your potential for getting caught.
Sorry, the "use orca for your crystals" has no substance to the argument. One could just as easily argue that you need a dedicated Crystal hauler in an industrial. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
102
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 15:26:00 -
[278] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:All exhumers have had their cargo reduced to 350. But T2 crystals are now 25 cu m Well, this is certainly a step in the right direction.
You still need the cargohold to scale based on the number of strips you have.
A Skiff @ 350m3 is "effectively" 3 times as big as a Hulk @ 350m3 - as it has 1 strip and a hulk has 3. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
280
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 15:29:00 -
[279] - Quote
Infinite Force wrote:Sorry, the "use orca for your crystals" has no substance to the argument. One could just as easily argue that you need a dedicated Crystal hauler in an industrial.
it wouldn't be so bad but not every one can just pull things out of an orca's hangar. if you're juggling several accounts this can be a pain in the back side.
unrelated to the above; i just read about the mining crystal changes. does any one have the t2 strip miner stats handy? because if i'm not mistaken they have a 50m3 cargo capacity, for current t2 crystals, if t2 crystals are now 25m3, can we load 2 crystals per strip? Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Sarmatiko
754
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 15:30:00 -
[280] - Quote
IIRC shieldEmDamageResonance: 1.0 = 0% of EM resistance. With the skill lvl V you will have resistances closer to current Exhumer basic resistances.
|
|
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
336
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 15:31:00 -
[281] - Quote
Sarmatiko wrote:IIRC shieldEmDamageResonance: 1.0 = 0% of EM resistance. With the skill lvl V you will have resistances closer to current Exhumer basic resistances.
i'll update my pyfa and see what it says.
[edit] pyfa says it is a multiplier.. so you're right.. 1.0 = 0% resist If you don't see a problem in 0.0 eroding into two big super-coalitions and a few hangers on in areas nobody cares about.. then you don't have brains. |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
102
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 15:31:00 -
[282] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Infinite Force wrote:Sorry, the "use orca for your crystals" has no substance to the argument. One could just as easily argue that you need a dedicated Crystal hauler in an industrial. it wouldn't be so bad but not every one can just pull things out of an orca's hangar. if you're juggling several accounts this can be a pain in the back side. unrelated to the above; i just read about the mining crystal changes. does any one have the t2 strip miner stats handy? because if i'm not mistaken they have a 50m3 cargo capacity, for current t2 crystals, if t2 crystals are now 25m3, can we load 2 crystals per strip? That would be interesting? Like POS guns - a crystal breaks, a new one is "auto-loaded"? Or, mine twice as much? ... hehehe HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Adrenalinemax
Perkone Caldari State
23
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 15:32:00 -
[283] - Quote
Just playing on SiSi, seems they change shield resists for exhumers from 5% to 7.5% per level of mining barge
naked hulk em resist 0% jump in with mining barge 5 pilot - 25% em resist
either the ship is wrong or the description is wrong...
anyone else see this? |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
281
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 15:36:00 -
[284] - Quote
Infinite Force wrote:Dave stark wrote:Infinite Force wrote:Sorry, the "use orca for your crystals" has no substance to the argument. One could just as easily argue that you need a dedicated Crystal hauler in an industrial. it wouldn't be so bad but not every one can just pull things out of an orca's hangar. if you're juggling several accounts this can be a pain in the back side. unrelated to the above; i just read about the mining crystal changes. does any one have the t2 strip miner stats handy? because if i'm not mistaken they have a 50m3 cargo capacity, for current t2 crystals, if t2 crystals are now 25m3, can we load 2 crystals per strip? That would be interesting? Like POS guns - a crystal breaks, a new one is "auto-loaded"? Or, mine twice as much? ... hehehe
well mining crystals auto reload anyway (they just don't automatically re-start the module) Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Annette Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 15:40:00 -
[285] - Quote
Adrenalinemax wrote:Just playing on SiSi, seems they change shield resists for exhumers from 5% to 7.5% per level of mining barge
naked hulk em resist 0% jump in with mining barge 5 pilot - 25% em resist
either the ship is wrong or the description is wrong...
anyone else see this?
that was there a few days ago too. Because of the lack of mid slots i beleive thats by design.
In regards to the Crystal changes.
Strip miner capacity has also been halved. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
336
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 15:42:00 -
[286] - Quote
these resist changes are bad, and CCP should feel bad. If you don't see a problem in 0.0 eroding into two big super-coalitions and a few hangers on in areas nobody cares about.. then you don't have brains. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
281
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 15:43:00 -
[287] - Quote
Annette Aumer wrote:Adrenalinemax wrote:Just playing on SiSi, seems they change shield resists for exhumers from 5% to 7.5% per level of mining barge
naked hulk em resist 0% jump in with mining barge 5 pilot - 25% em resist
either the ship is wrong or the description is wrong...
anyone else see this? that was there a few days ago too. Because of the lack of mid slots i beleive thats by design. In regards to the Crystal changes. Strip miner capacity has also been halved.
that answers my double loading crystals then, i was hoping to steal some more space by double loading. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Annette Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 15:47:00 -
[288] - Quote
Denidil wrote:these resist changes are bad, and CCP should feel bad.
Why?
Its how they're adding the more tank to the Exhumers.
You'll have Barge V to be able to fly an exhumer which gives you 25% EM resist in your shield. it gives you a more balanced shield without having to sacrifice too many mid slots?
or am I needing to L2P? |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
81
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 15:48:00 -
[289] - Quote
Sheynan wrote:...this will never end cause I want more, more give me more, give me more...
*whistles*
No one is asking for more, just to be able to have the same selection we currently lug around in the hulk.
15-20 crystals is not an unreasonable amount to have on hand, I carry this many on each of my 3 hulks when I am mining, and I try to vary the types between each hulk. |
Annette Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 15:50:00 -
[290] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:Sheynan wrote:...this will never end cause I want more, more give me more, give me more...
*whistles* No one is asking for more, just to be able to have the same selection we currently lug around in the hulk. 15-20 crystals is not an unreasonable amount to have on hand, I carry this many on each of my 3 hulks when I am mining, and I try to vary the types between each hulk.
so a reduction to 20m3 for the T2 crystals will see you happy at 17 crystals in a hulks cargohold if i'm reading that right. |
|
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
172
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 15:55:00 -
[291] - Quote
Adrenalinemax wrote:Just playing on SiSi, seems they change shield resists for exhumers from 5% to 7.5% per level of mining barge
naked hulk em resist 0% jump in with mining barge 5 pilot - 25% em resist
either the ship is wrong or the description is wrong...
anyone else see this? It looks like the ship is finally right for the old description, but not synchronised to the new description yet. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
281
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 15:56:00 -
[292] - Quote
Annette Aumer wrote:Jake Rivers wrote:Sheynan wrote:...this will never end cause I want more, more give me more, give me more...
*whistles* No one is asking for more, just to be able to have the same selection we currently lug around in the hulk. 15-20 crystals is not an unreasonable amount to have on hand, I carry this many on each of my 3 hulks when I am mining, and I try to vary the types between each hulk. so a reduction to 20m3 for the T2 crystals will see you happy at 17 crystals in a hulks cargohold if i'm reading that right.
14 crystals @ 25m3, not 20m3. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Annette Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 15:59:00 -
[293] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Annette Aumer wrote:Jake Rivers wrote:Sheynan wrote:...this will never end cause I want more, more give me more, give me more...
*whistles* No one is asking for more, just to be able to have the same selection we currently lug around in the hulk. 15-20 crystals is not an unreasonable amount to have on hand, I carry this many on each of my 3 hulks when I am mining, and I try to vary the types between each hulk. so a reduction to 20m3 for the T2 crystals will see you happy at 17 crystals in a hulks cargohold if i'm reading that right. 14 crystals @ 25m3, not 20m3.
Dave. I love you but learn to read. I wasn't quoting at 25m3. i was answering the guy who wanted between 15-20 crystals like he already can. so i fiddled the numbers and found that 350m3 divided by 20 would give you 17 (17.5 but you can't buy halfcrystals)
and basically asked him if the crystals WERE 20m3 would he be happy. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
336
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 16:00:00 -
[294] - Quote
Annette Aumer wrote:Denidil wrote:these resist changes are bad, and CCP should feel bad. Why? Its how they're adding the more tank to the Exhumers. You'll have Barge V to be able to fly an exhumer which gives you 25% EM resist in your shield. it gives you a more balanced shield without having to sacrifice too many mid slots? or am I needing to L2P?
my reaction was based off pyfa tank numbers.. tank went down
problem is pyfa isn't applying their resist bonuses. If you don't see a problem in 0.0 eroding into two big super-coalitions and a few hangers on in areas nobody cares about.. then you don't have brains. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
281
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 16:05:00 -
[295] - Quote
Annette Aumer wrote:Dave stark wrote:Annette Aumer wrote:Jake Rivers wrote:Sheynan wrote:...this will never end cause I want more, more give me more, give me more...
*whistles* No one is asking for more, just to be able to have the same selection we currently lug around in the hulk. 15-20 crystals is not an unreasonable amount to have on hand, I carry this many on each of my 3 hulks when I am mining, and I try to vary the types between each hulk. so a reduction to 20m3 for the T2 crystals will see you happy at 17 crystals in a hulks cargohold if i'm reading that right. 14 crystals @ 25m3, not 20m3. Dave. I love you but learn to read. I wasn't quoting at 25m3. i was answering the guy who wanted between 15-20 crystals like he already can. so i fiddled the numbers and found that 350m3 divided by 20 would give you 17 (17.5 but you can't buy halfcrystals) and basically asked him if the crystals WERE 20m3 would he be happy.
i haven't had my afternoon nap, it's too warm to sleep.
:( Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Annette Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 16:08:00 -
[296] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:
i haven't had my afternoon nap, it's too warm to sleep.
:(
haha no worries, I know the feeling. It will soon be hometime for me. Or more accurately "go to a beergarden to enjoy whats left of the sunshine as you've been working in an office all day" but its not quite as catchy. |
Noslen Nosilla
Federal Logistics Initiative Conglomerate
7
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 16:34:00 -
[297] - Quote
So the cargohold on all mining barges is 350m3 except the Covetor which still has the 500m3 cargohold. all the exhumers have a 350m3 cargohold now. T1 Crystals 15m3 now T2 Crystals 25m3 now
You still can't fit more than 13 T2 crystals in the cargohold because you have to have the empty space of one crystal to change a crystal out.
Hmmm. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
284
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 16:36:00 -
[298] - Quote
Noslen Nosilla wrote:So the cargohold on all mining barges is 350m3 except the Covetor which still has the 500m3 cargohold. all the exhumers have a 350m3 cargohold now. T1 Crystals 15m3 now T2 Crystals 25m3 now Hmmm.
it would seem so.
which means the 350 on the hulk is an oversight, or the covetor having 500m3 is an oversight. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
81
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 17:17:00 -
[299] - Quote
Ideally having a full set of crystals with room for a few spares would be nice, then you wouldn't have to bother swapping out crystals before you dock each time to tailor your mining for the belt you are going after, I know myself this takes about 10-15 minutes each time I set up for a mining op with my fleet. When I get home and decide I want to mine, I want to jump right in, not micromanage the crystal inventory.
And you do need spares, as the current format, it is impossible to check each crystal for wear when you are docked, and there is no way of knowing if the crystals you are taking out are going to last for the night or blow out after a few cycles.
Reducing the crystal size by half was a step in the right direction, but it is not enough to accommodate a busy mining schedule. I could live with having enough crystals to go after 5 rock types, but doing away with the crystal micromanagement would rule. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
336
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 17:53:00 -
[300] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote: And you do need spares, as the current format, it is impossible to check each crystal for wear when you are docked
wrong.. show info If you don't see a problem in 0.0 eroding into two big super-coalitions and a few hangers on in areas nobody cares about.. then you don't have brains. |
|
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
288
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 17:55:00 -
[301] - Quote
Denidil wrote:Jake Rivers wrote: And you do need spares, as the current format, it is impossible to check each crystal for wear when you are docked
wrong.. show info
and the fact that unused crystals stack, ones that have been loaded won't stack even if they're undamaged. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
102
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 18:11:00 -
[302] - Quote
Having two threads basically addressing the same issues kind of bites, but here goes:
Based on the current implementation of the new crystal sizes & cargoholds, I'm consolidating my other two related posts here so people don't have to look too hard for them...
There are 15 Ore types (Mercoxit excluded). T1 crystals - 15 m3 T2 crystals - 25 m3
Let's standardize here a little now.
1. For the T1 Barges, it's being asked that they be able to carry 3 T1 Ore Crystal types + 1 spare. That is 20% of the total Ore types (3 / 15).
2. For the T2 Exhumers, it's being asked that they carry 5 Ore crystal types + 2 spares. That is 33% of the total Ore types (5 / 15).
Anything more than this, and you can have it delivered or dock up to get more.
Minimum Cargohold Size = Crystal Size * # of Strips * # of crystals (active + spares) * # of ore types
Procurer / Skiff : 1 Strip - T1 crystals w/ 3 ores: 15 * 1 * 2 * 3 = 90 m3 - T2 crystals w/ 5 ores: 25 * 1 * 3 * 5 = 375 m3
Retriever / Mackinaw : 2 Strips - T1 crystals w/ 3 ores: 15 * 2 * 2 * 3 = 180 m3 - T2 crystals w/ 5 ores: 25 * 2 * 3 * 5 = 750 m3
Covetor / Hulk : 3 Strips - T1 crystals w/ 3 ores: 16 * 3 * 2 * 3 = 270 m3 - T2 crystals w/ 5 ores: 25 * 3 * 3 * 5 = 1125 m3
I think this is a step in the right direction with the crystal reductions, but the Cargoholds still need to be brought into line with the ship speciality.
As far as balancing the cargoholds, the CH should be sized based on the number of strips the ship has.
At 350m3 across the board right now, the Skiff is about right, the Mack has ~46% of what it needs and the Hulk sits at ~33% of its need. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
336
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 18:25:00 -
[303] - Quote
Infinite Force wrote:Having two threads basically addressing the same issues kind of bites, but here goes:. not everyone reads this forum If you don't see a problem in 0.0 eroding into two big super-coalitions and a few hangers on in areas nobody cares about.. then you don't have brains. |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
102
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 18:31:00 -
[304] - Quote
Denidil wrote:Infinite Force wrote:Having two threads basically addressing the same issues kind of bites, but here goes:. not everyone reads this forum Nor do they search them either :(
No matter. After 16 pages, it's always good to summarize - even if it's in the OP. (hint, hint) HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Annette Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 18:40:00 -
[305] - Quote
Infinite Force wrote:Denidil wrote:Infinite Force wrote:Having two threads basically addressing the same issues kind of bites, but here goes:. not everyone reads this forum Nor do they search them either :( No matter. After 16 pages, it's always good to summarize - even if it's in the OP. (hint, hint)
The man with the Gammy eye has a point. update the OP! |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
81
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 18:55:00 -
[306] - Quote
Denidil wrote:Jake Rivers wrote: And you do need spares, as the current format, it is impossible to check each crystal for wear when you are docked
wrong.. show info
Okay, impossible was the wrong wording, impractical is what I should of said.
When you have 3-4 hulks heading out, there is no way I want to do show info and scroll down to check 20-50 crystals. As these suckers do no stack, it sure the hell leads to a long page of crystals when sorting through them.
Which is why I just stick a few extra spares in the cargo hold, due to it being simpler than checking each used crystal for damage. |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
81
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 19:01:00 -
[307] - Quote
Infinite Force wrote:Having two threads basically addressing the same issues kind of bites, but here goes:
Based on the current implementation of the new crystal sizes & cargoholds, I'm consolidating my other two related posts here so people don't have to look too hard for them...
There are 15 Ore types (Mercoxit excluded). T1 crystals - 15 m3 T2 crystals - 25 m3
Let's standardize here a little now.
1. For the T1 Barges, it's being asked that they be able to carry 3 T1 Ore Crystal types + 1 spare. That is 20% of the total Ore types (3 / 15).
2. For the T2 Exhumers, it's being asked that they carry 5 Ore crystal types + 2 spares. That is 33% of the total Ore types (5 / 15).
Anything more than this, and you can have it delivered or dock up to get more.
Minimum Cargohold Size = Crystal Size * # of Strips * # of crystals (active + spares) * # of ore types
Procurer / Skiff : 1 Strip - T1 crystals w/ 3 ores: 15 * 1 * 2 * 3 = 90 m3 - T2 crystals w/ 5 ores: 25 * 1 * 3 * 5 = 375 m3
Retriever / Mackinaw : 2 Strips - T1 crystals w/ 3 ores: 15 * 2 * 2 * 3 = 180 m3 - T2 crystals w/ 5 ores: 25 * 2 * 3 * 5 = 750 m3
Covetor / Hulk : 3 Strips - T1 crystals w/ 3 ores: 16 * 3 * 2 * 3 = 270 m3 - T2 crystals w/ 5 ores: 25 * 3 * 3 * 5 = 1125 m3
I think this is a step in the right direction with the crystal reductions, but the Cargoholds still need to be brought into line with the ship speciality.
As far as balancing the cargoholds, the CH should be sized based on the number of strips the ship has.
At 350m3 across the board right now, the Skiff is about right, the Mack has ~46% of what it needs and the Hulk sits at ~33% of its need.
CCP wants those tiny cargoholds so the hauler market will increase, so it makes sense to make the cargohold useless for anything but a place to stash the crystals. 2 of my miners are currently training industrial skills, due to no longer being able to use a hulk to run around gathering up PI products. Which I am fine with, they just need to reduce the crystal size to a point where we will still have the selection to use we currently enjoy. I really do not understand why these things were made so large in the first place.
|
Annette Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 19:04:00 -
[308] - Quote
Ok dumb question.
Why do you need such a large selection? I'm a low skill miner in a retriever currently. I watch the market and buy the ore I can refine into the best isk/m3 that is really if i want to spend time in 1 belt.. 2 ore's at the moment i'm focusing on.
|
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
290
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 19:06:00 -
[309] - Quote
Annette Aumer wrote:Ok dumb question.
Why do you need such a large selection? I'm a low skill miner in a retriever currently. I watch the market and buy the ore I can refine into the best isk/m3 that is really if i want to spend time in 1 belt.. 2 ore's at the moment i'm focusing on.
because it's often more isk/hour to clear a belt than to cherry pick ore and move around so much. hence with 4 different ores in a belt you'll need 4 sets of crystals. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
102
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 19:11:00 -
[310] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:CCP wants those tiny cargoholds so the hauler market will increase, so it makes sense to make the cargohold useless for anything but a place to stash the crystals. 2 of my miners are currently training industrial skills, due to no longer being able to use a hulk to run around gathering up PI products. Which I am fine with, they just need to reduce the crystal size to a point where we will still have the selection to use we currently enjoy. I really do not understand why these things were made so large in the first place.
Jake, I think you mis-understand. The storage space is NOT for hauling, it's for Crystals and mining equipment.
If you're picking up PI in a Barge/Exhumer, you're doing it wrong.
They were made large in the first place for a couple of reasons: 1. You had a huge cargohold to use. 2. It made you limit how many crystals (ore types) you could carry crystals for.
For #2, the point now is that a mining ship should still be able to carry 3 - 5 types of crystals (20 - 33% of the total types of ore) + spares (see prior post on the subject). HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
|
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
336
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 19:12:00 -
[311] - Quote
mackinaw:
2 crystals in strips, 4 ore types
3*3+1 in hold, 2 in strips = 4 ores + spare
10*25=250m3 .. it's bay is big enough with the size reduction
in fact you have room for a fifth ore
If you don't see a problem in 0.0 eroding into two big super-coalitions and a few hangers on in areas nobody cares about.. then you don't have brains. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
124
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 19:24:00 -
[312] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Annette Aumer wrote:Ok dumb question.
Why do you need such a large selection? I'm a low skill miner in a retriever currently. I watch the market and buy the ore I can refine into the best isk/m3 that is really if i want to spend time in 1 belt.. 2 ore's at the moment i'm focusing on.
because it's often more isk/hour to clear a belt than to cherry pick ore and move around so much. hence with 4 different ores in a belt you'll need 4 sets of crystals.
wow you guys are idiots, look at the new volumes for the new mining crystals |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
290
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 19:24:00 -
[313] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Dave stark wrote:Annette Aumer wrote:Ok dumb question.
Why do you need such a large selection? I'm a low skill miner in a retriever currently. I watch the market and buy the ore I can refine into the best isk/m3 that is really if i want to spend time in 1 belt.. 2 ore's at the moment i'm focusing on.
because it's often more isk/hour to clear a belt than to cherry pick ore and move around so much. hence with 4 different ores in a belt you'll need 4 sets of crystals. wow you guys are idiots, look at the new volumes for the new mining crystals
wow you're an idiot. go and look at what they did to the hulk's cargo bay. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
102
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 19:31:00 -
[314] - Quote
Denidil wrote:mackinaw:
2 crystals in strips, 4 ore types
3*3+1 in hold, 2 in strips = 4 ores + spare
10*25=250m3 .. it's bay is big enough with the size reduction
in fact you have room for a fifth ore
Okay, if we adjust to a standard of 4 Ores + spares (yes, t2 ships should get 2 spares / strip, not 1):
Minimum Cargohold Size = Crystal Size * # of Strips * # of crystals (active + spares) * # of ore types
Procurer / Skiff : 1 Strip - T1 crystals w/ 4 ores: 15 * 1 * 2 * 4 = 120 m3 - T2 crystals w/ 4 ores: 25 * 1 * 3 * 4 = 300 m3
Retriever / Mackinaw : 2 Strips - T1 crystals w/ 4 ores: 15 * 2 * 2 * 4 = 240 m3 - T2 crystals w/ 4 ores: 25 * 2 * 3 * 4 = 600 m3
Covetor / Hulk : 3 Strips - T1 crystals w/ 4 ores: 16 * 3 * 2 * 4 = 360 m3 - T2 crystals w/ 4 ores: 25 * 3 * 3 * 4 = 900 m3
Don't forget that you still need an extra 25m3 though to "allow" crystals to swap. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
81
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 19:41:00 -
[315] - Quote
Annette Aumer wrote:Ok dumb question.
Why do you need such a large selection? I'm a low skill miner in a retriever currently. I watch the market and buy the ore I can refine into the best isk/m3 that is really if i want to spend time in 1 belt.. 2 ore's at the moment i'm focusing on.
In high sec, the belts vary in amount of ore, depending on the security status, 1.0 I think has just a few ores (2?), and a 0.5 has 5 or so types.
In low sec/null sec belts will have 3 or more extra ores in them, so there is a wider variety to mine. Usually you just focus on a few of the more profitable ores, and ignore the rest.
If you are doing grav sites, these vary on size, usually 1-3 types of crystals is more than enough if you are just going after the high end ores. If you are stripping the belt, either to make it respawn, or the highs are already gone and sometimes you just feel like hitting everything anyways.
An excellent guide that shows the different grav site types you will encounter in null sec systems with a good industry index can be found here: http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/1006/Bloodtear_Industy_Index_Report.pdf
If you look at the ore tables you can see the varieties of ore in each grav site type, some are numerous and others are not, making it important to be able to have a decent selection of crystals when you are setting up in these types of grav sites for a long mining run. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
124
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 19:43:00 -
[316] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Sigras wrote:Dave stark wrote:Annette Aumer wrote:Ok dumb question.
Why do you need such a large selection? I'm a low skill miner in a retriever currently. I watch the market and buy the ore I can refine into the best isk/m3 that is really if i want to spend time in 1 belt.. 2 ore's at the moment i'm focusing on.
because it's often more isk/hour to clear a belt than to cherry pick ore and move around so much. hence with 4 different ores in a belt you'll need 4 sets of crystals. wow you guys are idiots, look at the new volumes for the new mining crystals wow you're an idiot. go and look at what they did to the hulk's cargo bay. wait . . . youre still complaining even though they gave you the ability to hold 17 crystals? thats 5 different types of ore! thats more than 1/3 of the different ore types IN THE WHOLE GAME!
what the heck more do you want? |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
291
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 19:44:00 -
[317] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Dave stark wrote:Sigras wrote:Dave stark wrote:Annette Aumer wrote:Ok dumb question.
Why do you need such a large selection? I'm a low skill miner in a retriever currently. I watch the market and buy the ore I can refine into the best isk/m3 that is really if i want to spend time in 1 belt.. 2 ore's at the moment i'm focusing on.
because it's often more isk/hour to clear a belt than to cherry pick ore and move around so much. hence with 4 different ores in a belt you'll need 4 sets of crystals. wow you guys are idiots, look at the new volumes for the new mining crystals wow you're an idiot. go and look at what they did to the hulk's cargo bay. wait . . . youre still complaining even though they gave you the ability to hold 17 crystals? thats 4 different types of ore! thats more than 1/4 of the different ore types IN THE WHOLE GAME! what the heck more do you want?
enough space for enough crystals to flip a grav site. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Commander A9
East Khanid Trading Khanid Trade Syndicate
26
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 19:47:00 -
[318] - Quote
Perhaps I'm naive or just stubborn, but...being the hardcore miner that I am, a Hulk miner by the way, I'm not terribly enthused about the reduction in my ore bay, and the fact that cargo expander rigs are now useless...and that my capacitor takes longer to fully charge...and that my shield resistances are lower (but my total shields are higher)...
I mean, why would ORE, realistically, not only refuse to improve the defenses of their Hulk, while improving everything else, but also make a ship smaller than the Hulk (i.e., the Mackinaw) hold more than the Hulk?
Let's think about that for a second...
And am I reading this right for the Mackinaw? It's no longer a dedicated ice miner? ...Why not? What benefit does that bring anyone? Why only a 1% boost to its attributes per skill level?
I know some defense and powergrid/CPU changes were needed for mining ships (especially the Mackinaw), but why leave out the Hulk? Why give it no love? If CCP wants to make changes: -rollback to old inventory system (pre-Inferno) -enable ships wobbling in hangar view (pre-Captains Quarters) -add more missions (NPC fleet vs. NPC fleets that actually shoot) -stop "fixing" what isn't "broken" |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
124
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 19:48:00 -
[319] - Quote
so wait . . .youre complaining that you cant have everything in every ship? If you want to flip a grav site, any grav site in a hulk, what are you doing with all that ore? are you having a hauler haul it to the POS/Station/rorqual for you? if so, guess what? they can haul crystals too.
The hulk is a FLEET mining ship, use your FLEET to bring you more crystals.
IMHO, they need to nerf the skiff's cargo bay cause it can hold 1 of every crystal in the game and thats all it needs. that should be the domain of the Mack as its supposed to be the self sufficient one. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
124
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 19:51:00 -
[320] - Quote
Commander A9 wrote:Well...being the hardcore miner that I am, a Hulk miner by the way, I'm not terribly enthused about the reduction in my ore bay, and the fact that cargo expander rigs are now useless...and that my capacitor takes longer to fully charge...and that my shield resistances are lower (but my total shields are higher)...
I mean, why would ORE, realistically, not only refuse to improve the defenses of their Hulk, while improving everything else, but also make a ship smaller than the Hulk (i.e., the Mackinaw) hold more than the Hulk?
Let's think about that for a second...
And am I reading this right for the Mackinaw? It's no longer a dedicated ice miner? ...Why not? What benefit does that bring anyone? Why only a 1% boost to its attributes per skill level?
I know some defense and powergrid/CPU changes were needed for mining ships (especially the Mackinaw), but why leave out the Hulk? Why give it no love? 2 words: Game Balance
If you want to be the king of yield, you get to be vulnerable to suicide ganking. If you want to be immune to suicide ganks, you sacrifice some mining yield. |
|
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
293
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 19:52:00 -
[321] - Quote
Sigras wrote:so wait . . .youre complaining that you cant have everything in every ship? If you want to flip a grav site, any grav site in a hulk, what are you doing with all that ore? are you having a hauler haul it to the POS/Station/rorqual for you? if so, guess what? they can haul crystals too.
The hulk is a FLEET mining ship, use your FLEET to bring you more crystals.
IMHO, they need to nerf the skiff's cargo bay cause it can hold 1 of every crystal in the game and thats all it needs. that should be the domain of the Mack as its supposed to be the self sufficient one.
once again, there's a difference between "works best in a fleet" and "only works in a fleet".
you'd have a point if i wanted to fit 30 sets of every mining crystal; but i don't. i just want to be able to mine any ore in the belt by simply switching crystals instead of being able to go "woop, can't mine that, couldn't bring the crystal with me".
sure, having a hauler bring me crystals to let me CONTINUE mining is fine. i shouldn't have to wait for a hauler so i can START mining. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
293
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 19:54:00 -
[322] - Quote
Commander A9 wrote:And am I reading this right for the Mackinaw? It's no longer a dedicated ice miner? ...Why not? What benefit does that bring anyone? Why only a 1% boost to its attributes per skill level?
I know some defense and powergrid/CPU changes were needed for mining ships (especially the Mackinaw), but why leave out the Hulk? Why give it no love?
because ice bonuses on macks would mean no ship other than the mackinaw would ever mine ice. it'd have the best yield, best cargo, and almost the best tank. why would you ever use anything else? the entire point of the rebalance is to stop one ship being the "king of mining" because it does everything better than every other ship. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Commander A9
East Khanid Trading Khanid Trade Syndicate
26
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 19:57:00 -
[323] - Quote
But wasn't that the point of T2 barges in the first place? To have each specialize in mining some form of resource gathering? The Skiff was gas, the Mackinaw was ice, the Hulk was ore.
I'm still not seeing why these changes are totally necessary. Defensive improvements, yes, everything else...not so much...
I'm not asking to devour belts with 1 barge...I'm asking for changes that people actually want, and changes that make sense.
I didn't vote for my CSM candidate anticipating this... If CCP wants to make changes: -rollback to old inventory system (pre-Inferno) -enable ships wobbling in hangar view (pre-Captains Quarters) -add more missions (NPC fleet vs. NPC fleets that actually shoot) -stop "fixing" what isn't "broken" |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
293
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 20:07:00 -
[324] - Quote
Commander A9 wrote:But wasn't that the point of T2 barges in the first place? To have each specialize in mining some form of resource gathering? The Skiff was gas, the Mackinaw was ice, the Hulk was ore.
I'm still not seeing why these changes are totally necessary. Defensive improvements, yes, everything else...not so much...
I'm not asking to devour belts with 1 barge...I'm asking for changes that people actually want, and changes that make sense.
I didn't vote for my CSM candidate anticipating this...
i do want these changes, and they do make sense. no longer can some little cuntbubble in a 3m dessy **** up my 300m ship. now i don't have to "throw away" my ore or spend most of my time in warp.
also, now i don't have 2 ships sitting in my hangar that will rarely see the light of day. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Commander A9
East Khanid Trading Khanid Trade Syndicate
26
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 20:10:00 -
[325] - Quote
Perhaps. I can see the Mackinaw being used more often now, which I suppose is okay...
I'm not happy about the Hulk losing its ore capacity, but...adapt and overcome...
But, in the end, we'll see... If CCP wants to make changes: -rollback to old inventory system (pre-Inferno) -enable ships wobbling in hangar view (pre-Captains Quarters) -add more missions (NPC fleet vs. NPC fleets that actually shoot) -stop "fixing" what isn't "broken" |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
336
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 20:10:00 -
[326] - Quote
Commander A9 wrote:Perhaps I'm naive or just stubborn, but...being the hardcore miner that I am, a Hulk miner by the way, I'm not terribly enthused about the reduction in my ore bay, and the fact that cargo expander rigs are now useless...and that my capacitor takes longer to fully charge...and that my shield resistances are lower (but my total shields are higher)...
I mean, why would ORE, realistically, not only refuse to improve the defenses of their Hulk, while improving everything else, but also make a ship smaller than the Hulk (i.e., the Mackinaw) hold more than the Hulk?
Let's think about that for a second...
And am I reading this right for the Mackinaw? It's no longer a dedicated ice miner? ...Why not? What benefit does that bring anyone? Why only a 1% boost to its attributes per skill level?
I know some defense and powergrid/CPU changes were needed for mining ships (especially the Mackinaw), but why leave out the Hulk? Why give it no love?
sod off. If you don't see a problem in 0.0 eroding into two big super-coalitions and a few hangers on in areas nobody cares about.. then you don't have brains. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
293
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 20:12:00 -
[327] - Quote
genuine lol. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
81
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 20:16:00 -
[328] - Quote
Sigras wrote:so wait . . .youre complaining that you cant have everything in every ship? If you want to flip a grav site, any grav site in a hulk, what are you doing with all that ore? are you having a hauler haul it to the POS/Station/rorqual for you? if so, guess what? they can haul crystals too.
The hulk is a FLEET mining ship, use your FLEET to bring you more crystals.
IMHO, they need to nerf the skiff's cargo bay cause it can hold 1 of every crystal in the game and thats all it needs. that should be the domain of the Mack as its supposed to be the self sufficient one.
It is not your place, nor mine to dictate how one wants to mine. This is a sandbox after all, and you are not welcome in my half.
CCP just needs to reduce the crystal to a point where if one wanted to, they should be able to lug out 2 full sets if they so wish.
We should have the option to decide how many types we want to take out when we go to mine, and not be restricted by some abstract number someone came up, based on there own preference.
If you are happy with 10 crystals, well I am not going to tell you how you have to mine, that is your prerogative, just don't go around telling everyone else how you think they should be mining too.
Besides, just imagine the kill mail for a hulk where someone was foolish enough to load in a few hundred T2 crystals.
|
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
103
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 20:20:00 -
[329] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:Sigras wrote:so wait . . .youre complaining that you cant have everything in every ship? If you want to flip a grav site, any grav site in a hulk, what are you doing with all that ore? are you having a hauler haul it to the POS/Station/rorqual for you? if so, guess what? they can haul crystals too.
The hulk is a FLEET mining ship, use your FLEET to bring you more crystals.
IMHO, they need to nerf the skiff's cargo bay cause it can hold 1 of every crystal in the game and thats all it needs. that should be the domain of the Mack as its supposed to be the self sufficient one. It is not your place, nor mine to dictate how one wants to mine. This is a sandbox after all, and you are not welcome in my half. CCP just needs to reduce the crystal to a point where if one wanted to, they should be able to lug out 2 full sets if they so wish. We should have the option to decide how many types we want to take out when we go to mine, and not be restricted by some abstract number someone came up, based on there own preference. If you are happy with 10 crystals, well I am not going to tell you how you have to mine, that is your prerogative, just don't go around telling everyone else how you think they should be mining too. Besides, just imagine the kill mail for a hulk where someone was foolish enough to load in a few hundred T2 crystals. Since you cross posted in the Initial Mining Changes thread (<--- that away), I'll repeat what I said:
It is true that everyone has a different mining style - however, CCP already has stated the cargoholds are being "nerfed" to avoid these specialized ships being used as haulers.
Due to that, it's necessary to think what is necessary and what isn't. It is necessary to carry "X" amount of crystals & spares for "Y" types of Ore. It is not necessary to carry crystals for all 15 (Mercoxit excluded) ores plus spares - even if we'd like to.
Yes, the killmails would be interesting, but unless you create a crystal hold (similiar to the fuel bays on caps), you won't get it. What I'm shooting for is something reasonable that can be done without being overly harsh or overly generous - trying to run it down the middle / upper middle road. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
293
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 20:22:00 -
[330] - Quote
every ship should be able to carry exactly 1 full set of crystals + 1 spare crystal of every type.
this means that you must pick between being able to mine anything you come across until your logistics brings you a "reload", or you can mine a subset of ores without the need for logistics.
this means that in a fleet you will still have to rely on logistics so you don't run out of crystals, and it also means that when solo mining you aren't crippled by not having logistics.
i think this is the optimal solution. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
|
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
337
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 20:22:00 -
[331] - Quote
we actually get the devs to look at the issue, then some whiny **** comes in and bitches because one ship isn't the end all be all and he *gasp* has to change rigs? ugh.. i want should suicide gank him on an alt. If you don't see a problem in 0.0 eroding into two big super-coalitions and a few hangers on in areas nobody cares about.. then you don't have brains. |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
103
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 20:24:00 -
[332] - Quote
Denidil wrote:we actually get the devs to look at the issue, then some whiny **** comes in and bitches because one ship isn't the end all be all and he *gasp* has to change rigs? ugh.. i want should suicide gank him on an alt. I'll LOL that :) HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
124
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 20:45:00 -
[333] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Sigras wrote:so wait . . .youre complaining that you cant have everything in every ship? If you want to flip a grav site, any grav site in a hulk, what are you doing with all that ore? are you having a hauler haul it to the POS/Station/rorqual for you? if so, guess what? they can haul crystals too.
The hulk is a FLEET mining ship, use your FLEET to bring you more crystals.
IMHO, they need to nerf the skiff's cargo bay cause it can hold 1 of every crystal in the game and thats all it needs. that should be the domain of the Mack as its supposed to be the self sufficient one. once again, there's a difference between "works best in a fleet" and "only works in a fleet". you'd have a point if i wanted to fit 30 sets of every mining crystal; but i don't. i just want to be able to mine any ore in the belt by simply switching crystals instead of being able to go "woop, can't mine that, couldn't bring the crystal with me". sure, having a hauler bring me crystals to let me CONTINUE mining is fine. i shouldn't have to wait for a hauler so i can START mining. #1 you realize that you can do exactly what youre asking for, using T1 strip miners right? but im going to assume thats not good enough for you. Youre not willing to sacrifice anything, you want all of the yield with all of the ores all of the time with no preperation or logistics, and I understand that, I do too but i cant have it for game balance reasons and neither can you.
#2 you dont need the hauler to start mining, you can load 12 crystals into your cargohold, and 3 in your lasers, thats enough to mine 5 different types of ore, or 1/3 of the ore in the game. So you pick a spot and mine out all of those types of ore in that spot and by that time you'll be ready for a hauler or two anyway. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
124
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 20:52:00 -
[334] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:It is not your place, nor mine to dictate how one wants to mine. This is a sandbox after all, and you are not welcome in my half.
CCP just needs to reduce the crystal to a point where if one wanted to, they should be able to lug out 2 full sets if they so wish.
We should have the option to decide how many types we want to take out when we go to mine, and not be restricted by some abstract number someone came up, based on there own preference.
If you are happy with 10 crystals, well I am not going to tell you how you have to mine, that is your prerogative, just don't go around telling everyone else how you think they should be mining too.
Besides, just imagine the kill mail for a hulk where someone was foolish enough to load in a few hundred T2 crystals.
I think you may be misunderstanding the sandbox concept.
A sandbox doesnt mean that you get to do whatever you want, it simply means that the game provides you with tools and you use those tools to make your castle.
CCP is providing you a tool (2 in fact) to do exactly what you ask which is mine every type of ore without distinction. #1 use a skiff - with its current cargohold, it can hold 14 crystals + 1 in the laser, thats every ore in the game. #2 use T1 Strip Miners - This will allow you to disregard the crystals entirely.
Yes, both of these require sacrifice of yield, but thats called balance, you cant have it all, all of the time that is the point, and if you could, that ship would be overpowered. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
294
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 20:53:00 -
[335] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Dave stark wrote:Sigras wrote:so wait . . .youre complaining that you cant have everything in every ship? If you want to flip a grav site, any grav site in a hulk, what are you doing with all that ore? are you having a hauler haul it to the POS/Station/rorqual for you? if so, guess what? they can haul crystals too.
The hulk is a FLEET mining ship, use your FLEET to bring you more crystals.
IMHO, they need to nerf the skiff's cargo bay cause it can hold 1 of every crystal in the game and thats all it needs. that should be the domain of the Mack as its supposed to be the self sufficient one. once again, there's a difference between "works best in a fleet" and "only works in a fleet". you'd have a point if i wanted to fit 30 sets of every mining crystal; but i don't. i just want to be able to mine any ore in the belt by simply switching crystals instead of being able to go "woop, can't mine that, couldn't bring the crystal with me". sure, having a hauler bring me crystals to let me CONTINUE mining is fine. i shouldn't have to wait for a hauler so i can START mining. #1 you realize that you can do exactly what youre asking for, using T1 strip miners right? but im going to assume thats not good enough for you. Youre not willing to sacrifice anything, you want all of the yield with all of the ores all of the time with no preperation or logistics, and I understand that, I do too but i cant have it for game balance reasons and neither can you. #2 you dont need the hauler to start mining, you can load 12 crystals into your cargohold, and 3 in your lasers, thats enough to mine 5 different types of ore, or 1/3 of the ore in the game. So you pick a spot and mine out all of those types of ore in that spot and by that time you'll be ready for a hauler or two anyway.
no, i'm not asking for t1 strips, i'm asking to be able to use t2 strips properly. it's not about sacrifice, you sacrifice cargo space for crystals to begin with. by using t2 strips you've already made a sacrifice. now we can't even use the things we've made sacrfices for. having crystals is preparation, but when you can't fit the crystals you can't prepare. I WANT TO PREPARE. the choice should be this "you can mine every ore until your crystals break, then tough **** for not bringing spares to replace it" or "you can mine crystal x for a long time because you brought reloads for this specific ore instead of being able to mine all the ores." i don't want everything; i want to be able to make choices. i can't make that choice with the current cargo hold space in the hulk. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
124
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 20:58:00 -
[336] - Quote
no but you're CHOOSING to fly the hulk with T2 strip miners in the first place. that is your choice and you suffer the consequences.
If you made a different choice IE fly a skiff or a hulk with T1 strip miners, this would be a non issue. If you truely want to prepare to mine every ore in the game without having to get more crystals from somewhere then fly a skiff |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
294
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 20:58:00 -
[337] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Jake Rivers wrote:It is not your place, nor mine to dictate how one wants to mine. This is a sandbox after all, and you are not welcome in my half.
CCP just needs to reduce the crystal to a point where if one wanted to, they should be able to lug out 2 full sets if they so wish.
We should have the option to decide how many types we want to take out when we go to mine, and not be restricted by some abstract number someone came up, based on there own preference.
If you are happy with 10 crystals, well I am not going to tell you how you have to mine, that is your prerogative, just don't go around telling everyone else how you think they should be mining too.
Besides, just imagine the kill mail for a hulk where someone was foolish enough to load in a few hundred T2 crystals. I think you may be misunderstanding the sandbox concept. A sandbox doesnt mean that you get to do whatever you want, it simply means that the game provides you with tools and you use those tools to make your castle. CCP is providing you a tool (2 in fact) to do exactly what you ask which is mine every type of ore without distinction. #1 use a skiff - with its current cargohold, it can hold 14 crystals + 1 in the laser, thats every ore in the game. #2 use T1 Strip Miners - This will allow you to disregard the crystals entirely. Yes, both of these require sacrifice of yield, but thats called balance, you cant have it all, all of the time that is the point, and if you could, that ship would be overpowered.
ccp never had an issue with us carrying a full set of crystals for each ore, nobody complained about it. why should it now be "balanced" for us not to do so?
in fact, it used to be perfectly acceptable to do that and carry reloads. in fact, you could do that and still have enough cargo for 1 cycle of ore without using any cargo mods. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
294
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 21:02:00 -
[338] - Quote
Sigras wrote:no but you're CHOOSING to fly the hulk with T2 strip miners in the first place. that is your choice and you suffer the consequences.
If you made a different choice IE fly a skiff or a hulk with T1 strip miners, this would be a non issue. If you truely want to prepare to mine every ore in the game without having to get more crystals from somewhere then fly a skiff
and why are there now consequences for something that has, until now, been perfectly acceptable? we're talking about a hulk, the highest yield ship in the game, and you suggest not maxing out the yield? that's like telling a race driver he can only do the national speed limit around silverstone in a race. he'd think you're having a giraffe.
you seem to have missed the point; i don't want to mine them without having to get more crystals from somewhere. i have no issue with being unable to carry reloads if i can mine anything i come across. like i said; give me the choice to be able to mine anything i find OR mine one thing for a length of time, as it stands we really can't do either. belts do not contain enough ore to just much through one type for an extended period, and contain too many to carry a sufficient array of crystals. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
124
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 21:05:00 -
[339] - Quote
CCP never had a problem with the speeds of ships until 2007, CCP never had a problem with blasters until 2011 CCP never had a problem with Tech until 2012, CCP never had a problem with a lot of things that were totally unbalanced until they got around to fixing them.
This is just another fix to the sandbox, and though I think either the mackinaws and the skiffs roles should be reversed, or the mack's cargo should be buffed and the skiffs nerfed, I think this is a great and welcome change.
Now there's a reason to fly a skiff, and the Mack does more than ice mine in 0.0 |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
295
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 21:07:00 -
[340] - Quote
"totally unbalanced" mining crystals.
'aight son, now i know you're smoking some thing funky. care to share?
agree with you on the mack's cargo though, after it's nerf and the ret's buff the mack is woefully lacking in it's role bonus. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
|
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
81
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 21:10:00 -
[341] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:every ship should be able to carry exactly 1 full set of crystals. [eg 3 crystals of every ore type in the hulk, 2 in the mack, 1 in the skiff]
this means that you must pick between being able to mine anything you come across until your logistics brings you a "reload", or you can mine a subset of ores without the need for logistics.
this means that in a fleet you will still have to rely on logistics so you don't run out of crystals, and it also means that when solo mining you aren't crippled by not having logistics.
i think this is the optimal solution.
No one knows what CCP think you should do for mining crystals as in numbers and what not, as they have not talked at all about crystals and the cargohold, they have not put out reasons why the crystals are supposed to be so large, and why the amounts need to limit what you can mine.
To think it is acceptable to me to have someone run around in a hauler handing out crystals is ludicrous, to think that the mining booster should shut down and run into the belt every time someone needs a new crystal is ludicrous. When I set up and start crunching rocks, I do not want to move an inch, other than go for more beers. The hulks stay in place till I am done mining, or run out of rocks in range to blast. I handle my ore logistics in a manner that suits me just fine.
This may be great for your play style, but not mine, and I am sure there are 50 other miners out there who will have 50 different play styles as well. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
295
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 21:16:00 -
[342] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:Dave stark wrote:every ship should be able to carry exactly 1 full set of crystals. [eg 3 crystals of every ore type in the hulk, 2 in the mack, 1 in the skiff]
this means that you must pick between being able to mine anything you come across until your logistics brings you a "reload", or you can mine a subset of ores without the need for logistics.
this means that in a fleet you will still have to rely on logistics so you don't run out of crystals, and it also means that when solo mining you aren't crippled by not having logistics.
i think this is the optimal solution. No one knows what CCP think you should do for mining crystals as in numbers and what not, as they have not talked at all about crystals and the cargohold, they have not put out reasons why the crystals are supposed to be so large, and why the amounts need to limit what you can mine. To think it is acceptable to me to have someone run around in a hauler handing out crystals is ludicrous, to think that the mining booster should shut down and run into the belt every time someone needs a new crystal is ludicrous. When I set up and start crunching rocks, I do not want to move an inch, other than go for more beers. The hulks stay in place till I am done mining, or run out of rocks in range to blast. I handle my ore logistics in a manner that suits me just fine. This may be great for your play style, but not mine, and I am sure there are 50 other miners out there who will have 50 different play styles as well.
if you're mining everything in sight then being able to fit 1 set of every crystal will suit you fine. alternatively if i'm sitting here just mining arkonor all day because it's the best isk/hour and **** flipping the belt the americans can do that once i've stolen all the arkonor after downtime, packing nothing but arkonor crystals will suit me. the option to do either of the above things is the key here.
currently you can't really do either. i suppose you could do the 2nd, but not the first. hence currently we've got no options in this situation. its "take 1 set of half the crystals and **** you if the belt doesn't have that type of ore" at the moment, it's the worst of both worlds. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
81
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 21:22:00 -
[343] - Quote
I have actually met miners in game that put a cargo container inside there hulk just so they can keep a full selection of crystals on hand, and keep the cargohold tidy at the same time.
Why should they no longer be able to carry the full selection that they have been using for years.
Crystals need to be reduced in size.
All these wonderful changes made to the mining barge, and at the same time they overlooked the mining crystals. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
295
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 21:25:00 -
[344] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:I have actually met miners in game that put a cargo container inside there hulk just so they can keep a full selection of crystals on hand, and keep the cargohold tidy at the same time.
Why should they no longer be able to carry the full selection that they have been using for years.
Crystals need to be reduced in size.
All these wonderful changes made to the mining barge, and at the same time they overlooked the mining crystals. as have i, but you end up with empty space in your cargo, or carrying way too many crystals, AND you need to stagger your strips if you're not solo unless you're packing at least one expander of some kind.
alternatively to another size reduction; the cargo bays need to stop being ******** ******* sizes. agreed, they're doing so much right but getting a few things oh so wrong as well. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
107
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 22:23:00 -
[345] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Jake Rivers wrote:I have actually met miners in game that put a cargo container inside there hulk just so they can keep a full selection of crystals on hand, and keep the cargohold tidy at the same time.
Why should they no longer be able to carry the full selection that they have been using for years.
Crystals need to be reduced in size.
All these wonderful changes made to the mining barge, and at the same time they overlooked the mining crystals. as have i, but you end up with empty space in your cargo, or carrying way too many crystals, AND you need to stagger your strips if you're not solo unless you're packing at least one expander of some kind. alternatively to another size reduction; the cargo bays need to stop being ******** ******* sizes. agreed, they're doing so much right but getting a few things oh so wrong as well. It will be interesting to see how much they actually listen to those that do these things day-in and day-out. If they botch this up by not listening to the player base, it'll be a nail in the coffin for many more as it'll just show the 'we know more than you do' attitude - again.. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
298
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 22:25:00 -
[346] - Quote
Infinite Force wrote:Dave stark wrote:Jake Rivers wrote:I have actually met miners in game that put a cargo container inside there hulk just so they can keep a full selection of crystals on hand, and keep the cargohold tidy at the same time.
Why should they no longer be able to carry the full selection that they have been using for years.
Crystals need to be reduced in size.
All these wonderful changes made to the mining barge, and at the same time they overlooked the mining crystals. as have i, but you end up with empty space in your cargo, or carrying way too many crystals, AND you need to stagger your strips if you're not solo unless you're packing at least one expander of some kind. alternatively to another size reduction; the cargo bays need to stop being ******** ******* sizes. agreed, they're doing so much right but getting a few things oh so wrong as well. It will be interesting to see how much they actually listen to those that do these things day-in and day-out. If they botch this up by not listening to the player base, it'll be a nail in the coffin for many more as it'll just show the 'we know more than you do' attitude - again..
they obviously have been reading, and listening. the hulk ehp changed, as did the crystal size...
however there have been some awful changes with no word from ccp [see ore bay in the mack] Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Arctos Canis
Ice Wolves
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 22:41:00 -
[347] - Quote
I am following this thread from the beginning and i be leave devs do to. I am a miner for almost 4 years now :) . I would like to share one concept about EVE which is kind of related to this topic of crystals too.
EVE is a sand box - we all know that, but the great thing about this game is the amount of chooses of how u can play it, and this is one of the main aspects of what i like about this game, we all play in this sand box but we all play it our way :) . I start to think that CCP does not realize why miners are making such a big deal about this particular problem. Its because this thing will directly impact the mining ability's and options they always had, which is suddenly for a know reason is removed. As if someone comes in to your sand box where u played always takes half of your toys and lets u, use a bucket and a shuffle and says "deal with it".
Dev's said "we don't want mining barges to be haulers", so the cargo holds got shrieked to a minimum as much as possible, nobody cared about it too much, cuz we got the ore holds, but as soon as miners realized that this will be a major limitation to the options they had before, this became a major problem.
Now the miners community came up whit the solution for this problem which is reducing the crystals size. And this way everybody wins. We still have our broad spectrum of options of how we want to mine and using these ships as haulers option is of the table too. So CCP enlighten us what is the problem? Cuz as up until now not a single dev deared to comment on this matter. So where is our promised improved communication with the player base? |
nesdaq
Viziam Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 00:49:00 -
[348] - Quote
cargo of the hulk is way to small
I'm using the hulk with cargo-rigs so I'm able to store a full T2 crystal set (15*3) and survive a full cycle so i don't have to move to POS/Station every time to swap to other set of crystals to mine other ore.
* make cargo of hulk 2500m3 or lose the crystal size * ore bay seems ok, but could have some "cycle" love to and able to store 2 cycles and make it 15k m3 |
Janet Patton
Brony Express
27
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 02:19:00 -
[349] - Quote
Obviously if you want to mine everything in sight, you should be using tech I strip miners. You can also use tech 1 crystals in your tech II strip miners which take up less space then the tech II variant.
Specific ore and max yield or general all around rock cruncher. You have the pick. It really does seem like it's by design.
Maybe it's just my play style, but I never carry spare crystals on me. I can fill up several jet cans of the same ore before switching over to my hauler. If I need to change out crystals I do it at the station when I switch. This is part of the balance and sacrifice the most of the game follows when configuring your ship.
Why do I have this sig? I don't smoke. |
Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
93
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 02:28:00 -
[350] - Quote
I think CCP has an issue differentiating between Balance and disability-induced-frustration. The former is good, it makes you choose between two different things that are meaningful and can be fun to work with. The latter is just being stupid and annoying and saps the fun.
The roles between the revised mining ships is Balance. The mining crystals is frustration, it saps the fun for no good reason.
Jester's recent blog post http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2012/07/thats-just-way-it-is.html contains a lot of "disability-induced-frustration" that saps at the fun without providing anything compelling.
11k Ore hold on the Hulk vs 7500 is 2 cycles vs 1.5 cycles and causes frustration. It forces me to multi-task more often than is fun. Moving all of the storage to an Ore hold from general storage is good Balance because it means my Hulk isn't competing with my Badger 2 for hauler capability.
Make the game fun and avoid "disability-induced-frustration" and keep players.
Drox |
|
Unit757
North Point Cannabis Legionis
13
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 02:48:00 -
[351] - Quote
As someone who HAS mined a fair bit way back when, and will more then likely do some after these changes when I'm hammered or something, I REALLY can't seem to find any justification in your current demands "Hulk should be able to carry crystal for every ore type". Seriously? I was thinking you guys were having some good feedback here, but that statement, aswell as trying to say the hulk "works best in a fleet, but doesnt require a fleet" Makes me think you guys are just being selfish.
I want to carry every single hybrid round, with enough to last an entire roam. But I cant.
CCP Yitterbium DIRECTLY STATED the hulk IS DESIGNED TO WORK IN A FLEET, WITH SUPPORT. If you want to carry every damn crystal in the game, but refuse to use fleet support to do so, fly a god damn skiff.
The solution is EXTREMELY simple. If your dead set on using the hulk, pack it with whatever crystals it can use, and mine what you can. What about the rest of the ore? Oh, I don't know, how bout you communicate with the fleet that your with, and make sure you have all types covered?
And like it was stated earlier. This is a sandbox, you cant do "whatever you want" You can do things with the TOOLS CCP gives you, for a specific job.
Would you go rent an excavator to plant flowers in your garden? No, youd use something appropriate for what you want to do. What your wanting to do here, is plant sh-t in your garden, and the hulk is your excavator.
Present me with a VALID reason why a FLEET boat has to be able to carry every single ore crystal, even for the ones you wont encounter. Afraid a cluster of jaspet might hot drop you in .5 space? |
Hypercake Mix
Magical Rainbow Bakery
1
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 02:55:00 -
[352] - Quote
For those of us who actually like micro-ing drones that don't have keybinds, 50/25 or 50/50 drone bay/bandwidth for the Retriever and Procurer too? Covetor already has 50/50 even though Medium Mining Drones don't exist. |
Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
93
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 02:56:00 -
[353] - Quote
Unit757 wrote:Present me with a VALID reason why a FLEET boat has to be able to carry every single ore crystal, even for the ones you wont encounter. Afraid a cluster of jaspet might hot drop you in .5 space?
Because asking somebody else to stop doing what they're doing to bring you more crystals isn't fun for anybody. Stopping doing what you're doing to get more crystals isn't fun.
Picking ammo for a roam isn't the same. You have down time, you aren't doing DPS 100% of the time. You have time for your ammo hauler to follow you around and meet up with you between fights. When you are mining, you are putting out DPS 100% of the time, you just don't get kill mail for roids.
Drox |
Unit757
North Point Cannabis Legionis
13
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 03:00:00 -
[354] - Quote
Droxlyn wrote:Unit757 wrote:Present me with a VALID reason why a FLEET boat has to be able to carry every single ore crystal, even for the ones you wont encounter. Afraid a cluster of jaspet might hot drop you in .5 space? Because asking somebody else to stop doing what they're doing to bring you more crystals isn't fun for anybody. Stopping doing what you're doing to get more crystals isn't fun. Picking ammo for a roam isn't the same. You have down time, you aren't doing DPS 100% of the time. You have time for your ammo hauler to follow you around and meet up with you between fights. When you are mining, you are putting out DPS 100% of the time, you just don't get kill mail for roids. Drox
Cool, I asked for a valid reason. The Skiff can hold tons of crystals, and im pretty sure the machinaw can to. So that leaves, oh, the hulk? Why dont you ask somebody in the fleet your hulk is with to store some for you.
My ships getting blown up isn't fun, CCP should stop that. having to spend isk to get stuff isn't fun, that should stop to.
Also, you completely contradicted yourself. "Because asking somebody else to stop doing what they're doing to bring you more crystals isn't fun for anybody. Stopping doing what you're doing to get more crystals isn't fun."
" You have time for your ammo hauler to follow you around and meet up with you between fights"
So, its ok for me to ask somebody to risk their ship, and their clone, and haul ammo out god knows how many jumps into hostile spacel, on his own, but its not ok to ask somebody to undock a hauler and jump to a belt to give you more crystal? |
Gevlin
SMANews.net SpaceMonkey's Alliance
177
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 03:14:00 -
[355] - Quote
Testing out the covetor - on SiSi was surprised I was able to fit T2 Strippers and t2 Upgrades and a small shield booster and cap stable.
Having some trials with the Procurer. Nice to have a tank and a good hold. with only using 1 crystal I can put plenty of spare crystals in the hold. If you want the ease of lots of crystals the Procurer and SKiff is the choice.
Though I wonder why The signature radius of the sig of the Skiff is 200, Mack is 250 and the Hulk is only 150. is this a type O?
It is interesting people are complaining about not enough room for the full spread of crystals on a Hulk. The Hulk is now to be a group dependent ship. A support ship with crystals fits within this them.
For the new Mack and Procurer though - why is CCP still placing a yield bonus on this ships based on Exhumers. It should be more diverse. By diverging away from yield the Hulk become more unique.
SKIFF IE 5% Reduction of Sig radius or Speed for Skiff (ie instead of giving the Skiff a base 200 m/s speed, instead give it a base speed of 150 and a speed increase of 5% per level) So a higher skill in Exhumers gives it a stronger speed tank.
Mackinaw ie The Machinaw is the lazy man's ship. and giving it a range bonus of 5% per level for strip mining laser range (Natural longer targeting may also be needed) Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
Hypercake Mix
Magical Rainbow Bakery
2
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 03:22:00 -
[356] - Quote
Gevlin wrote: Though I wonder why The signature radius of the sig of the Skiff is 200, Mack is 250 and the Hulk is only 150. is this a type O?
A drawback to their larger ore bays? So they can be locked and pointed faster? So aggressors can land more wrecking hits on them?
Tis a mystery. |
Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
93
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 03:56:00 -
[357] - Quote
Unit757 wrote:Droxlyn wrote:Unit757 wrote:Present me with a VALID reason why a FLEET boat has to be able to carry every single ore crystal, even for the ones you wont encounter. Afraid a cluster of jaspet might hot drop you in .5 space? Because asking somebody else to stop doing what they're doing to bring you more crystals isn't fun for anybody. Stopping doing what you're doing to get more crystals isn't fun. Picking ammo for a roam isn't the same. You have down time, you aren't doing DPS 100% of the time. You have time for your ammo hauler to follow you around and meet up with you between fights. When you are mining, you are putting out DPS 100% of the time, you just don't get kill mail for roids. Drox Cool, I asked for a valid reason. The Skiff can hold tons of crystals, and im pretty sure the macinaw can to. So that leaves, oh, the hulk? Why dont you ask somebody in the fleet your hulk is with to store some for you. My ships getting blown up isn't fun, CCP should stop that. having to spend isk to get stuff isn't fun, that should stop t0o. Also, you completely contradicted yourself. "Because asking somebody else to stop doing what they're doing to bring you more crystals isn't fun for anybody. Stopping doing what you're doing to get more crystals isn't fun." " You have time for your ammo hauler to follow you around and meet up with you between fights" So, its ok for me to ask somebody to risk their ship, and their clone, and haul ammo out god knows how many jumps into hostile spacel, on his own, but its not ok to ask somebody to undock a hauler and jump to a belt to give you more crystal?
Dying is never fun in any game, but that isn't a balance or frustration issue, that's the point of the game.
All of the mining ships should be able to hold lots of mining crystals. There is no NEED to differentiate here. The ship engineers at ORE should have been smart enough to have done at least THAT much. In a good mining op, everybody is too busy doing their specific task to stop to screw around with dealing with crystals. Do you pick up extra ammo drops in the middle of a PvP skirmish or are you too busy fighting?
Do you really expect a hauler full of ammo to follow your roam around? If Yes, then I will accept a hauler passing out mining crystals in a mining op.
Fun = Subs and Subs = Profit.
Drox
|
Gevlin
SMANews.net SpaceMonkey's Alliance
177
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 03:59:00 -
[358] - Quote
I have multi Boxed up to 4 accounts, 1 Orca and 3 Hulks in both High sec and null sec
I have also run ops up to 20 in Nulls sec and 25 in high sec(nothing like clearing all belts out of a system)
I would assign or 2 types of ore to each hulk limiting the number of crystals required to be put in stock for the operation. I would assign a couple Hulks with miner I's to clean up the odd ore that didn't have much. (this would often be the empire based ore in the upgraded I-Hub Induced belts in null sec.)
Orcas would be used for hauling Boosting in,High sec, with some secondary help from a hauler(iity 5) that would focus on smaller groups or bins out of tractor range of the Orca. Moving everything to a POS to later be moved to a station via Freighter
In null sec I would haul with Rorqual or Orca with an Itty 5 support, while Boosting with a Rorqual. 1 Tanked Hulk would sit in the belt first to tank the Belt rats. Scouts (alts) in neighbouring systems. Lots and Lots of Bubbles.
The need for tonne of Crystals in a hulk is for the Solo or afk Miner... which is not longer the choice of ship for these people. They now have to make a choice, Convienience (Reteiver) or Or Max Yield The hulk.
Its a new age, And age of Choice, not longer is it simple get to the best ship and max it out. I really like CCP's approach of Balancing for Roles vs Tiers. It is reverse Power creep, it is awesome and really separates eve from other MMOs out there.
Before in my selection of ships it was retriever, or hulk. now I have to rethink my group make up completely. Rekindling my desire to mine again...... Procure is becoming my new favorite ship.
Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
Gevlin
SMANews.net SpaceMonkey's Alliance
177
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 04:14:00 -
[359] - Quote
Droxlyn wrote:Unit757 wrote:Present me with a VALID reason why a FLEET boat has to be able to carry every single ore crystal, even for the ones you wont encounter. Afraid a cluster of jaspet might hot drop you in .5 space? Because asking somebody else to stop doing what they're doing to bring you more crystals isn't fun for anybody. Stopping doing what you're doing to get more crystals isn't fun. Picking ammo for a roam isn't the same. You have down time, you aren't doing DPS 100% of the time. You have time for your ammo hauler to follow you around and meet up with you between fights. When you are mining, you are putting out DPS 100% of the time, you just don't get kill mail for roids. Drox
I am on the opposite side of the fence. On the rare occation I have a ship need to switch beyond the 9 crystals, 3 of 3 types of ore. often it 6 is he most ever needed. (for small group)
The hulk would book marks its location, warp to the boosting Orca or Rorqual to switch out then warp back. Or the hauling orca or Assistant hauling itty 5 would drop off the crystals for the hulk in need, allowing the hauler to be effective both directions from the belt.
I do have to admit I don't do solo mine with just 1 hulk, as I work in groups for the social aspect of it. This may be why I am so opposite to those who "Need" to have 2 full sets of crystals. I am personally seeing the Mack and the Retriever being ideal for those solo players Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
Gevlin
SMANews.net SpaceMonkey's Alliance
179
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 04:51:00 -
[360] - Quote
My question though is the loss of role of the industrial in the mining op, as a Machanaw can hold more ore than an industrial except the Itty 5
I know on most of my ops the main hauler is usually is an Orca or Rorqual, I would keep a supplemental industrial(itty 5) hauler in the rorqual to be assembled if needed to pick up the slack and leave it behind after stripping all the modules after the op finished. If the hauling feel behind or the Capital sided hauler had to go afk Bio, a miner would swtich from miner to hauler.
Now I can just equip a Machanaw or a Retriever to compete the task, and they take up less space in the rorqual than a mining barge. Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
|
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
302
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 05:39:00 -
[361] - Quote
Janet Patton wrote:Obviously if you want to mine everything in sight, you should be using tech I strip miners. You can also use tech 1 crystals in your tech II strip miners which take up less space then the tech II variant.
Specific ore and max yield or general all around rock cruncher. You have the pick. It really does seem like it's by design.
Maybe it's just my play style, but I never carry spare crystals on me. I can fill up several jet cans of the same ore before switching over to my hauler. If I need to change out crystals I do it at the station when I switch. This is part of the balance and sacrifice the most of the game follows when configuring your ship.
no, once again there's never been an issue carrying such a volume of crystals nor did any on even remotely think it was out of balance.
the hulk is designed to be the max yield ship, yet it can't be because of this glaring oversight that ccp :almost: fixed.
clearly you don't mine in high sec very much, from 1 warp in spot on a belt i can often clear all of 1 type of ore before i even fill a jetcan, swapping crystals is a must in that kind of situation.
why are we now having to sacrifice things that were never before even remotely an issue? if they want us to mine less, reduce the amount that strips mine; don't do it by making t2 strips a pain in the ass to use by not letting us carry ammunition for them. just imagine how much all the combat pilots would complain if you reduced all of the combat ships cargo holds to 50m3 so they had to pick between being able to reload, or being able to change damage type. they'd be just as annoyed at such a change. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
124
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 05:51:00 -
[362] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:no, once again there's never been an issue carrying such a volume of crystals nor did any on even remotely think it was out of balance.
the hulk is designed to be the max yield ship, yet it can't be because of this glaring oversight that ccp :almost: fixed. It can get max yield, it just cant get max yield on all the types of ore simultaneously without doing some fleet logistics. This is by design. Now you have to use team work in an MMO . . . what a novel idea
Dave stark wrote:clearly you don't mine in high sec very much, from 1 warp in spot on a belt i can often clear all of 1 type of ore before i even fill a jetcan, swapping crystals is a must in that kind of situation. Yes, but can you strip 5 different kinds of ore without needing a hauler? because thats how many different kinds of crystals you can fit in the hulk
Dave stark wrote:why are we now having to sacrifice things that were never before even remotely an issue? if they want us to mine less, reduce the amount that strips mine; don't do it by making t2 strips a pain in the ass to use by not letting us carry ammunition for them. just imagine how much all the combat pilots would complain if you reduced all of the combat ships cargo holds to 50m3 so they had to pick between being able to reload, or being able to change damage type. they'd be just as annoyed at such a change.
yes, its called a nerf. before the hulk was the undisputed king of mining, period. whether you wanted to be solo or fleet, high sec or 0.0 it didnt matter cause the hulk mined the most of any type of ore it wanted and had the best tank. The mackinaw edged it out in ice mining a bit but there was basically no reason to use the skiff.
Now you actually have a choice to make, do i want max yield or versatility? do I want to max yield for fleets or autonomy?
Sid Meier once said
Sid Meier wrote:A game is a series of interesting choices. Guess what? CCP just added another interesting choice that you have to make. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
302
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 06:07:00 -
[363] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Dave stark wrote:no, once again there's never been an issue carrying such a volume of crystals nor did any on even remotely think it was out of balance.
the hulk is designed to be the max yield ship, yet it can't be because of this glaring oversight that ccp :almost: fixed. It can get max yield, it just cant get max yield on all the types of ore simultaneously without doing some fleet logistics. This is by design. Now you have to use team work in an MMO . . . what a novel idea Dave stark wrote:clearly you don't mine in high sec very much, from 1 warp in spot on a belt i can often clear all of 1 type of ore before i even fill a jetcan, swapping crystals is a must in that kind of situation. Yes, but can you strip 5 different kinds of ore without needing a hauler? because thats how many different kinds of crystals you can fit in the hulk Dave stark wrote:why are we now having to sacrifice things that were never before even remotely an issue? if they want us to mine less, reduce the amount that strips mine; don't do it by making t2 strips a pain in the ass to use by not letting us carry ammunition for them. just imagine how much all the combat pilots would complain if you reduced all of the combat ships cargo holds to 50m3 so they had to pick between being able to reload, or being able to change damage type. they'd be just as annoyed at such a change. yes, its called a nerf. before the hulk was the undisputed king of mining, period. whether you wanted to be solo or fleet, high sec or 0.0 it didnt matter cause the hulk mined the most of any type of ore it wanted and had the best tank. The mackinaw edged it out in ice mining a bit but there was basically no reason to use the skiff. Now you actually have a choice to make, do i want max yield or versatility? do I want to max yield for fleets or autonomy? Sid Meier once said Sid Meier wrote:A game is a series of interesting choices. Guess what? CCP just added another interesting choice that you have to make.
again it it shouldn't need a fleet to work as a ship. it was never an issue before that it could do it; why should it be so now? you shouldn't have to be in a fleet just to use modules that you've been using for the last god knows how long. are there other ships that require a fleet to work besides fleet booster modules? i can't think of any.
can i strip 5 different kinds of ore without needing a hauler? i don't know, can i scan mining sites from the station the second i log in?
yes, it is a nerf, after they said they wanted to keep the hulk as it was. the hulk was only the king of mining because it had cargo, tank, and yield. it had everything, not just good mining capabilities. and yes, there was a reason to use a skiff, but only in 0.0.
even if you do want max yield you won't get it from the max yield ship if you can't carry a sufficient stock of crystals (which was never an issue before and has only been made an issue by ccp's terrible allocation of cargo on the new hulk which has had several perfectly acceptable solutions posted).
i appreciate that you should only get the best out of a hulk when in a fleet, you shouldn't require a fleet for it to do the minimum though. your noctis is there to salvage and haul loot, not to drop off reloads for your raven. same thing here, your fleet haulers should be there to haul your ore, not your crystals. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
302
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 06:08:00 -
[364] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Sid Meier wrote:A game is a series of interesting choices. Guess what? CCP just added another interesting choice that you get to make.
no they didn't add an interesting choice at all.
they simply said "**** you, you can't carry a full compliment of crystals any more." that's not a choice, that's an insult.
a choice would be giving us exactly enough cargo space for 1 set of every crystal and saying "right, you can have a crystal for every occasion, or you can take a subset of crystals and have enough to reload if you run out" THAT is a choice. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
124
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 06:30:00 -
[365] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:again it it shouldn't need a fleet to work as a ship. it was never an issue before that it could do it; why should it be so now? you shouldn't have to be in a fleet just to use modules that you've been using for the last god knows how long. are there other ships that require a fleet to work besides fleet booster modules? i can't think of any.
It doesnt require a fleet to mine, it requires a fleet to mine all of the minerals without docking.
youre getting your desieres confused with utility, saying that the ship doesnt work at all without a fleet is moronic. The ship still mines ore, in fact it still mines 5 different types of ore without needing any support.
Dave stark wrote:can i strip 5 different kinds of ore without needing a hauler? i don't know, can i scan mining sites from the station the second i log in?
so what youre saying is that youre not willing to do any prep work before mining, you just want to mindlessly go into a belt with all the crystals and mine anything that happens to be there because you cant be asked to prepare for what might be in the belt? Im so sorry that CCP has nerfed your lazy way of life.
Dave stark wrote:yes, it is a nerf, after they said they wanted to keep the hulk as it was. the hulk was only the king of mining because it had cargo, tank, and yield. it had everything, not just good mining capabilities. and yes, there was a reason to use a skiff, but only in 0.0.
I dont recall them saying that they wanted to keep the hulk the way it was, just that they wanted to keep the hulk and the biggest yield ship, and perhaps that they wanted to keep the yield similar, but this is off topic.
By your own admission the hulk had it all, cargo, tank and yield, it had everything. Guess what happens to a PvP ship when it "has everything"? It gets nerfed because it is overpowered.
And saying there was a reason to use the skiff is really kinda ignorant . . . especially in 0.0 where the +2 warp scramble strength means nothing. The only place that the skiff may have had a home is low sec because it has a fast (relativly) warp out time and +2 scramble strength.
Dave stark wrote:even if you do want max yield you won't get it from the max yield ship if you can't carry a sufficient stock of crystals (which was never an issue before and has only been made an issue by ccp's terrible allocation of cargo on the new hulk which has had several perfectly acceptable solutions posted).
so your definition of "sufficient stock" is 200 cycles (the average life of a crystal) of every crystal in the game? you realize thats more than 100 hours worth of mining, thatd be like me asking for my tempest to hold 674,151 rounds? I would say 100 hours is way more than "sufficient"
Dave stark wrote:i appreciate that you should only get the best out of a hulk when in a fleet, you shouldn't require a fleet for it to do the minimum though. your noctis is there to salvage and haul loot, not to drop off reloads for your raven. same thing here, your fleet haulers should be there to haul your ore, not your crystals. Again, your hulk can go into a belt and mine 5 different types of ore just fine without a fleet. The fact that this isnt what YOU want to do is YOUR problem |
Stefan1978
Buddel und Schuerf - Mining Corp
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 06:37:00 -
[366] - Quote
Next Step should be a Crystal Hangar! So you can made it 1.000-1.000.000.000.000m3
So we Not Need normal Cargo, isn t it? |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
124
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 06:37:00 -
[367] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Sigras wrote:Sid Meier wrote:A game is a series of interesting choices. Guess what? CCP just added another interesting choice that you get to make. no they didn't add an interesting choice at all. they simply said "**** you, you can't carry a full compliment of crystals any more." that's not a choice, that's an insult. a choice would be giving us exactly enough cargo space for 1 set of every crystal and saying "right, you can have a crystal for every occasion, or you can take a subset of crystals and have enough to reload if you run out" THAT is a choice.
you realize that a crystal only breaks once every 200 cycles on average right? you realize that even with perfect fleet boost thats still like 6 hours right? you realize that giving a ship 1 of each crystal is saying "there is no more choice any more, just load 1 of each crystal and youre good for your whole mining op"
The way it will be august 9th On the one hand, we have a hulk, great mining yield, but cant hold more than 5 sets of crystals
On the other hand, we have a skiff, great tank, worse mining yield than the hulk but holds one set of each crystal in the game
Pick one (note the word pick denotes an interesting choice)
The way it used to be On the one hand we have a hulk . . . that is all folks
Which one of the two examples above is the more interesting choice? |
Haffsol
Froody Guys Spaceships Business
9
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 06:42:00 -
[368] - Quote
with all due respect, I think you guys made your point about some of you feel screwed by the cargo bay affair. Now can you stop it please? It's maybe 15 of the 19 pages so far in the thread you keep on hammering on the whine button. We all are sorry, CCP must be desolate, everybody will send you love to overcome this, but I guess the main changes we would like to read about in such discussions are about roles, tank, peculiarities, strategies to mine more efficiently, which ship to use here, which one to use there, how many catalysts do gankers need to blow up my hulk, some gem from the fitting masters about some exotic fit...... |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
302
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 06:52:00 -
[369] - Quote
the ship doesn't work without a fleet. if i can't carry enough crystals to mine with it; i won't use it because other ships can carry enough crystals. it's role is the highest yield ship; that can't be fulfilled without a fleet. why is the hulk the only ship that should be subject to this unnecessary constraint? great 5 ores, so which 10 ores are we removing?
yeah because having to scan down a grav site to begin with isn't prep, right? it's hardly lazy, before i did prepare; i made sure i had enough crystals. now i can't make sure i have enough crystals BECAUSE THERE'S NO ROOM FOR THEM.
the hulk did get nerfed because it had it all; you can't give it the max cargo yield now, you can't give it the biggest tank now; and as you see we're also struggling to keep it with the highest yield due to the crystal issue. you're also a moron. the skiff was never good in low sec because it's yield was **** while mining ****** ores. nobody with half a brain mines in low sec let alone with a ship outmined by a goddamn t1 cruiser. your stupidity is astounding; it was only used in 0.0 because that's where you find mercoxit. it's a mercoxit dedicated mining ship. the fact that you call me ignorant without even knowing what a ship's purpose is really undermines any credibility you had.
my definition of sufficient stock is 1 set of crystals for each ore. that's no worse than a raven pilot taking 1k of each type of torp for his raven so he can swap damage types. it's hardly unreasonable is it? it's not like i want to go back to the days where i could take 5+ sets of crystals for all ores and STILL have room for ore.
quite right, it is my problem that's why i've suggested several fixes for the issue that would have been both easier on ccp's half and made a lot more sense than what they've done now. however i'm guessing due to your vehement ignorance and inability to accept that this is an issue that you've never mined a day in your life. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
302
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 06:57:00 -
[370] - Quote
Haffsol wrote:with all due respect, I think you guys made your point about some of you feel screwed by the cargo bay affair. Now can you stop it please? It's maybe 15 of the 19 pages so far in the thread you keep on hammering on the whine button. We all are sorry, CCP must be desolate, everybody will send you love to overcome this, but I guess the main changes we would like to read about in such discussions are about roles, tank, peculiarities, strategies to mine more efficiently, which ship to use here, which one to use there, how many catalysts do gankers need to blow up my hulk, some gem from the fitting masters about some exotic fit......
oh i'm sorry, did our discussion of a problem interrupt your oh so insightful contribution? Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
|
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
302
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 07:17:00 -
[371] - Quote
also a quick comment on downgrading to t1 strips on the hulk; that puts the mackinaw at a higher yield, tank, and cargo capacity. hence we go back to the situation we're in now. except we're all flying mackinaws.
4136 m3 yield on a t2 strip mackinaw vs 4096m3 yield on a hulk per cycle. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
124
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 07:17:00 -
[372] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:the ship doesn't work without a fleet. if i can't carry enough crystals to mine with it; i won't use it because other ships can carry enough crystals. it's role is the highest yield ship; that can't be fulfilled without a fleet. why is the hulk the only ship that should be subject to this unnecessary constraint? great 5 ores, so which 10 ores are we removing? you can carry enough crystals to mine with it, just not ALL the ores. It has max yield on the ores it chooses to mine just fine, the fact that it is no longer a one stop ship for all ores is a good thing.
Dave stark wrote:you're also a moron. the skiff was never good in low sec because it's yield was **** while mining ****** ores. nobody with half a brain mines in low sec let alone with a ship outmined by a goddamn t1 cruiser. your stupidity is astounding; it was only used in 0.0 because that's where you find mercoxit. it's a mercoxit dedicated mining ship. the fact that you call me ignorant without even knowing what a ship's purpose is really undermines any credibility you had.
Had you done any mining of mercoxit at all you would know that the skiff was no better at it than the hulk, the 60% bonus barely edged out the hulk at mining mercoxit, and the fact that it couldnt tank the rats out there was a huge deterrant. Also the gas cloud bonus is negligable because the DCSM has a range of 25 and the gas cloud has a range of 5, so you were never in any danger there either . . . im sorry, who just blew their credibility?
Dave stark wrote:my definition of sufficient stock is 1 set of crystals for each ore. that's no worse than a raven pilot taking 1k of each type of torp for his raven so he can swap damage types. it's hardly unreasonable is it? it's not like i want to go back to the days where i could take 5+ sets of crystals for all ores and STILL have room for ore.
You have to realize that each crystal lasts for 6 hours, in a raven each torp lasts 3 seconds, I understand that you can strip a belt in less than 6 hours (depending on the size of the grav belt)
since we are talking about grav belts, in the smallest grav belt (a level 1) the smallest ore types are Veldspar (40,600 m^3), Pyroxeres (63,000 m^3), Plagioclase (72,800 m^3), Gneiss (175,000 m^3), and Omber (180,000 m^3)
If you pick those 5 ores to mine, im pretty sure you'll need a hauler to come out and pick up some of your ore . . . and you know what? you could tell him to bring some different types of crystals with him as long as hes coming out.
Dave stark wrote:quite right, it is my problem that's why i've suggested several fixes for the issue that would have been both easier on ccp's half and made a lot more sense than what they've done now. however i'm guessing due to your vehement ignorance and inability to accept that this is an issue that you've never mined a day in your life.
Ive found that when two people are arguing, the person who is right argues about the problem, the person who is wrong attacks the other person's character . . . just saying
That being said, I have capital industrial ships 5 and mining director 5, ive done a few mining ops in my day. |
Haffsol
Froody Guys Spaceships Business
9
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 07:18:00 -
[373] - Quote
Quote:oh i'm sorry, did our discussion of a problem interrupt your oh so insightful contribution? no you interrupted the insightful contribution of the OP, probably the only one who posted stuff which is in topic and worth reading. Then you (generic "you") started trolling the thread, it was page 3. Yesterday they gave you some love reducing the crystal volume, but it looks like you just can't stop it.
So I feel like my contribution could be very much appreciated by many. I repeat the question: can you stop it please? |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
124
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 07:19:00 -
[374] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:also a quick comment on downgrading to t1 strips on the hulk; that puts the mackinaw at a higher yield, tank, and cargo capacity. hence we go back to the situation we're in now. except we're all flying mackinaws. you mean except those of us who are smart enough to organize our own logistics chain and have our haulers not waste their trips to the belt.
My fleet will still be mining in hulks thank you. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
302
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 07:20:00 -
[375] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Dave stark wrote:also a quick comment on downgrading to t1 strips on the hulk; that puts the mackinaw at a higher yield, tank, and cargo capacity. hence we go back to the situation we're in now. except we're all flying mackinaws. you mean except those of us who are smart enough to organize our own logistics chain and have our haulers not waste their trips to the belt. My fleet will still be mining in hulks thank you.
once again; the hulk should not be a case of "only works in fleets". it should be "works best in fleets" Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
302
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 07:22:00 -
[376] - Quote
Haffsol wrote:Quote:oh i'm sorry, did our discussion of a problem interrupt your oh so insightful contribution? no you interrupted the insightful contribution of the OP, probably the only one who posted stuff which is in topic and worth reading. Then you (generic "you") started trolling the thread, it was page 3. Yesterday they gave you some love reducing the crystal volume, but it looks like you just can't stop it. So I feel like my contribution could be very much appreciated by many. I repeat the question: can you stop it please?
yeah, they reduced the crystal size, along with the cargo bay size; that's why there's still an issue here.
no, i won't stop discussing issues with ships on the forum designed for feedback about ship changes. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Stefan1978
Buddel und Schuerf - Mining Corp
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 07:24:00 -
[377] - Quote
News from Sisi? Hulk Cargo has changed.
Yes,.....it is now not 500 it is now 350m-¦ gggrrrr are they just Id..ots?
Icerole on Mack is back.
No Crystalhangar till now.
Buy Stripminer I now, it will be the Future!!!!! :-( Think about to relog next year. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
302
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 07:25:00 -
[378] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Had you done any mining of mercoxit at all you would know that the skiff was no better at it than the hulk, the 60% bonus barely edged out the hulk at mining mercoxit, and the fact that it couldnt tank the rats out there was a huge deterrant. Also the gas cloud bonus is negligable because the DCSM has a range of 25 and the gas cloud has a range of 5, so you were never in any danger there either . . . im sorry, who just blew their credibility?
considering you think a 27.5% mining yield difference is "no better", you just blew your credibility i believe. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
124
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 07:27:00 -
[379] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Sigras wrote:Dave stark wrote:also a quick comment on downgrading to t1 strips on the hulk; that puts the mackinaw at a higher yield, tank, and cargo capacity. hence we go back to the situation we're in now. except we're all flying mackinaws. you mean except those of us who are smart enough to organize our own logistics chain and have our haulers not waste their trips to the belt. My fleet will still be mining in hulks thank you. once again; the hulk should not be a case of "only works in fleets". it should be "works best in fleets" I think the process of communication has broken down . . . seriously it "works" if when you target an asterroid and turn the lasers on, you get ore when the cycle finishes. Everything else is gravy.
Now I understand that it doesnt do everything that you want it to do, but neither do ANY of my PvP ships, do they not "work" either?
What is your definition of "works" |
Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
93
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 07:34:00 -
[380] - Quote
Sigras wrote: What is your definition of "works"
Not taking away something that we could do before. |
|
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
302
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 07:36:00 -
[381] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Dave stark wrote:Sigras wrote:Dave stark wrote:also a quick comment on downgrading to t1 strips on the hulk; that puts the mackinaw at a higher yield, tank, and cargo capacity. hence we go back to the situation we're in now. except we're all flying mackinaws. you mean except those of us who are smart enough to organize our own logistics chain and have our haulers not waste their trips to the belt. My fleet will still be mining in hulks thank you. once again; the hulk should not be a case of "only works in fleets". it should be "works best in fleets" I think the process of communication has broken down . . . seriously it "works" if when you target an asterroid and turn the lasers on, you get ore when the cycle finishes. Everything else is gravy. Now I understand that it doesnt do everything that you want it to do, but neither do ANY of my PvP ships, do they not "work" either? What is your definition of "works"
let's go back to choices. the choice to downgrade to t1 strips isn't there. it just turns the mackinaw in to the "i do everything better" ship between the two. which is what you said is wrong with the current system.
i don't want the hulk to be the only choice either; i just don't want it to *only* work in one situation. removing the crystal issue gives you three clear cut choices for solo mining; hulk for lots of isk, mackinaw for lots of alt tabbed film watching, and the skiff for paranoid people who like to taunt gankers.
even if we do relegate the hulk to fleet only; which i won't have a problem with the crystal issue still exists. again, if you're running a multi corp op then it just makes resupplying cystals a hassle. if i could just take them from the corp hangar of the orca i'm in a fleet with that'd be nice and dandy but it just doesn't work like that. i don't object to having to have the support there if it wasn't such a pain in the ass even with support. let's face it most booster characters are some one's alt that's tabbed out or logged in.
no system will ever be perfect, and i accept that. however when there are some simple solutions to some not very complex problems it's somewhat irritating. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
124
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 07:39:00 -
[382] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Sigras wrote:Had you done any mining of mercoxit at all you would know that the skiff was no better at it than the hulk, the 60% bonus barely edged out the hulk at mining mercoxit, and the fact that it couldnt tank the rats out there was a huge deterrant. Also the gas cloud bonus is negligable because the DCSM has a range of 25 and the gas cloud has a range of 5, so you were never in any danger there either . . . im sorry, who just blew their credibility? considering you think a 16% mining yield difference is "no better", you just blew your credibility i believe. edit:missclicking on excel is awesome You fixed that in between me clicking reply and the reply page loading. I was gonna ask where you were getting your numbers.
I did not say "no better" i said "barely edged out" and yes, it is barely edging it out because dead skiffs dont mine anything. especially when mercoxit is like <8% of the ore we usually mine anyway.
The skiff has less tank, and less cap, so we decided that its better just to use hulks especially since some of our fleet only had exhumers 4 which makes the difference <2%
That and we're really smart, we use orcas to refit in the field so you can go from mining mercoxit to mining everything else without even having to leave the belt. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
124
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 07:42:00 -
[383] - Quote
Droxlyn wrote:Sigras wrote: What is your definition of "works"
Not taking away something that we could do before. You realize that by that definition there isnt a ship in the game that "works"
When this game launched in 2003 you could fit armor repairers in the mid slots, my CEO still has a merlin fit that way.
We cant do that any more, so none of the ships in game work . . . oh no, time to go back to WoW because they never nerf anything and just let power creep rule the day . . . |
Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
93
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 07:46:00 -
[384] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Droxlyn wrote:Sigras wrote: What is your definition of "works"
Not taking away something that we could do before. You realize that by that definition there isnt a ship in the game that "works" When this game launched in 2003 you could fit armor repairers in the mid slots, my CEO still has a merlin fit that way. We cant do that any more, so none of the ships in game work . . . oh no, time to go back to WoW because they never nerf anything and just let power creep rule the day . . .
I didn't know armor repairers were mid-slot items once.
Personally, I think every ship should have at least 2 weapon hard points, preferably more. If the game lore says the universe is dangerous, then any ship engineer who pretends that isn't true should be put in a leather sack to test its capability in a vacuum.
Drox |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
302
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 07:48:00 -
[385] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Dave stark wrote:Sigras wrote:Had you done any mining of mercoxit at all you would know that the skiff was no better at it than the hulk, the 60% bonus barely edged out the hulk at mining mercoxit, and the fact that it couldnt tank the rats out there was a huge deterrant. Also the gas cloud bonus is negligable because the DCSM has a range of 25 and the gas cloud has a range of 5, so you were never in any danger there either . . . im sorry, who just blew their credibility? considering you think a 16% mining yield difference is "no better", you just blew your credibility i believe. edit:missclicking on excel is awesome You fixed that in between me clicking reply and the reply page loading. I was gonna ask where you were getting your numbers. I did not say "no better" i said "barely edged out" and yes, it is barely edging it out because dead skiffs dont mine anything. especially when mercoxit is like <8% of the ore we usually mine anyway. The skiff has less tank, and less cap, so we decided that its better just to use hulks especially since some of our fleet only had exhumers 4 which makes the difference <2% That and we're really smart, we use orcas to refit in the field so you can go from mining mercoxit to mining everything else without even having to leave the belt.
i'll refrain from making a snide comment about being able to mine in scalding pass.
Sigras wrote:you would know that the skiff was no better at it than the hulk
also if you're mining in a fleet, who cares about tank? Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
302
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 07:49:00 -
[386] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Droxlyn wrote:Sigras wrote: What is your definition of "works"
Not taking away something that we could do before. You realize that by that definition there isnt a ship in the game that "works" When this game launched in 2003 you could fit armor repairers in the mid slots, my CEO still has a merlin fit that way. We cant do that any more, so none of the ships in game work . . . oh no, time to go back to WoW because they never nerf anything and just let power creep rule the day . . .
i can understand nerfing things when they're out of line; but is being able to carry a full compliment of crystals really that unbalanced? Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
124
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 08:08:00 -
[387] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Sigras wrote:Dave stark wrote: once again; the hulk should not be a case of "only works in fleets". it should be "works best in fleets"
I think the process of communication has broken down . . . seriously it "works" if when you target an asterroid and turn the lasers on, you get ore when the cycle finishes. Everything else is gravy. Now I understand that it doesnt do everything that you want it to do, but neither do ANY of my PvP ships, do they not "work" either? What is your definition of "works" let's go back to choices. the choice to downgrade to t1 strips isn't there. it just turns the mackinaw in to the "i do everything better" ship between the two. which is what you said is wrong with the current system.
Agreed, a Hulk with strip 1s would be 6% worse than a mack or a skiff with strip 2s so that really isnt an option, but if you want to mine without having to redock to get different crystals, why not mine with the skiff?
Dave stark wrote:i don't want the hulk to be the only choice either; i just don't want it to *only* work in one situation. removing the crystal issue gives you three clear cut choices for solo mining; hulk for lots of isk, mackinaw for lots of alt tabbed film watching, and the skiff for paranoid people who like to taunt gankers.
again we have this word "work" CCP said that they want the hulk to be a fleet ship, if you want to fly it solo it will work in that capacity, you just may have to dock 3 times a belt to get more crystals. Just like how they designed the vagabond to be a shield ship; if I want to fit armor mods to it, I can but it wont be as effective as if I use it in the role for which it is designed.
I think we're getting the words "work" and "maximum efficiency" confused.
Dave stark wrote:even if we do relegate the hulk to fleet only; which i won't have a problem with the crystal issue still exists. again, if you're running a multi corp op then it just makes resupplying cystals a hassle. if i could just take them from the corp hangar of the orca i'm in a fleet with that'd be nice and dandy but it just doesn't work like that. i don't object to having to have the support there if it wasn't such a pain in the ass even with support. let's face it most booster characters are some one's alt that's tabbed out or logged in.
no system will ever be perfect, and i accept that. however when there are some simple solutions to some not very complex problems it's somewhat irritating.
well, corp hangers and fleet logistics are another issue I could go on and on about, but really, how hard is it for a hulk to jet a can and tell the hauler that he'd like XYZ crystals please. I do agree that they need a better way for non corp members to access a corporate hanger in a ship, but jetting a can isnt really that much trouble, especially given how long crystals last.
But im not suggesting that you use a booster character, when we do fleet mining ops, its an orca or two hauling to my rorqual in a POS which is compressing the ore. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
124
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 08:11:00 -
[388] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Sigras wrote:you would know that the skiff was no better at it than the hulk
Hmmm . . . i stand corrected, though in my defense that statement was clearly not made simply about mining yield but about the ship as a whole.
Dave stark wrote:also if you're mining in a fleet, who cares about tank?
Anyone who doesnt want to be the one first targeted by the rats? |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
302
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 08:14:00 -
[389] - Quote
the only thing i disagree with in regards to your last post is with regards to the hulk vs mackinaw.
my hulk should be able to sit in a belt and mine for as long as a mackinaw (which it can't do as it will run out of crystals first). then once that is done the difference between the two ships will be the hulk has to swap ship to haul, or spend an absurd amount of time doing it itself and for that drawback it should have mined more ore.
the crux of the issue here is that if the hulk can't do that because it's docking up to get reloads or proper crystal types then the hulk becomes the king of yield, cargo, and tank. which is the exact reasons for the change now; because the hulk is the king of yield cargo and tank. instead of solving the issue we've just shifted it from 1 ship to another.
people will now mindlessly train for a mackinaw instead of a hulk.
edit; ok not your last post, the one before since you ninja posted before i was finished :P Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
302
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 08:16:00 -
[390] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Dave stark wrote:Sigras wrote:you would know that the skiff was no better at it than the hulk Hmmm . . . i stand corrected, though in my defense that statement was clearly not made simply about mining yield but about the ship as a whole. Dave stark wrote:also if you're mining in a fleet, who cares about tank? Anyone who doesnt want to be the one first targeted by the rats?
oh no doubt if you're not cherry picking mercoxit then that 16% yield hit is nothing to worry about. however if you are cherry picking, that 16% is quite substantial, and it'll save on crystals.
ecm dones are awesome. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
|
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
124
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 08:21:00 -
[391] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Sigras wrote:Droxlyn wrote:Sigras wrote: What is your definition of "works"
Not taking away something that we could do before. You realize that by that definition there isnt a ship in the game that "works" When this game launched in 2003 you could fit armor repairers in the mid slots, my CEO still has a merlin fit that way. We cant do that any more, so none of the ships in game work . . . oh no, time to go back to WoW because they never nerf anything and just let power creep rule the day . . . i can understand nerfing things when they're out of line; but is being able to carry a full compliment of crystals really that unbalanced? well, I think of it more as a role change. The hulk is supposed to rely on other ships to haul its ore away and to bring it more crystals, the mack isnt, its supposed to be more self sufficient than the hulk or skiff.
To that end, I can see buffing the macks cargo bay to 750 m^3 so it can carry a full set of crystals, and fulfill its role as self sufficient
I would also like to see the cargo bay of the skiff nerfed to 250 m^3 so it can carry 10 different sets of crystals half way between the hulk's 5 and the mackinaw's 15.
just my thoughts, but the hulk will actually work great even solo, I imagine my strategy would be to warp to one spot and mine out all of the different types of ore that i have crystals for, then pick up my cans with my hauler (theyre probably almost running out by then anyway), then get different crystals and warp back to the same spot to gather the rocks i missed the first time. Lather rinse repeat! |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
302
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 08:27:00 -
[392] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Dave stark wrote:Sigras wrote:Droxlyn wrote:Sigras wrote: What is your definition of "works"
Not taking away something that we could do before. You realize that by that definition there isnt a ship in the game that "works" When this game launched in 2003 you could fit armor repairers in the mid slots, my CEO still has a merlin fit that way. We cant do that any more, so none of the ships in game work . . . oh no, time to go back to WoW because they never nerf anything and just let power creep rule the day . . . i can understand nerfing things when they're out of line; but is being able to carry a full compliment of crystals really that unbalanced? well, I think of it more as a role change. The hulk is supposed to rely on other ships to haul its ore away and to bring it more crystals, the mack isnt, its supposed to be more self sufficient than the hulk or skiff. To that end, I can see buffing the macks cargo bay to 750 m^3 so it can carry a full set of crystals, and fulfill its role as self sufficient I would also like to see the cargo bay of the skiff nerfed to 250 m^3 so it can carry 10 different sets of crystals half way between the hulk's 5 and the mackinaw's 15. just my thoughts, but the hulk will actually work great even solo, I imagine my strategy would be to warp to one spot and mine out all of the different types of ore that i have crystals for, then pick up my cans with my hauler (theyre probably almost running out by then anyway), then get different crystals and warp back to the same spot to gather the rocks i missed the first time. Lather rinse repeat!
oh i don't disagree that the mack should be more self sufficient. however i simply don't think crystals should come in to that; of course i don't want the hulk to be able to carry millions of crystals. as i've said enough space to pick between a single set of all the crystals, or being able to take a stack of a subset would be nice and gives more choices.
it's a quality of life change rather than any kind of mining buff, to be honest. it'll also stop people feel like they're being stonewalled in to flying a mack since it's slowly creeping in as the new hulk, then again with how poor the mack is vs it's t1 counterpart if it wasn't almost being given such godhood would any one buy it to begin with? Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
124
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 08:29:00 -
[393] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:the only thing i disagree with in regards to your last post is with regards to the hulk vs mackinaw.
my hulk should be able to sit in a belt and mine for as long as a mackinaw (which it can't do as it will run out of crystals first, or i won't have the correct crystals). then once that is done the difference between the two ships will be the hulk has to swap ship to haul, or spend an absurd amount of time doing it itself and for that drawback it should have mined more ore.
the crux of the issue here is that if the hulk can't do that because it's docking up to get reloads or proper crystal types then the mack becomes the king of yield, cargo, and tank. which is the exact reasons for the change now; because the hulk is the king of yield cargo and tank. instead of solving the issue we've just shifted it from 1 ship to another.
people will now mindlessly train for a mackinaw instead of a hulk.
edit; ok not your last post, the one before since you ninja posted before i was finished :P second edit: i keep getting my ships up mixed.
See, I would compare the two differently, I would say 5 hulks and 1 hauler vs 6 mackinaws
The 6 hulks jetcan mine and use the hauler to bring them more crystals, and the macks mine into their own ore bay and dock to dump their ore each time and reposition.
Of course neither of these are real world examples as, in 0.0 the cans will have popped before the belt gets mined and in high sec, the cans will have been flipped before you can blink
that being said, I think its just a different mentality. IMHO if you want to min max it should require coordination and concentration between multiple people, and I believe having people haul you crystals is part of that. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
302
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 08:35:00 -
[394] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Dave stark wrote:the only thing i disagree with in regards to your last post is with regards to the hulk vs mackinaw.
my hulk should be able to sit in a belt and mine for as long as a mackinaw (which it can't do as it will run out of crystals first, or i won't have the correct crystals). then once that is done the difference between the two ships will be the hulk has to swap ship to haul, or spend an absurd amount of time doing it itself and for that drawback it should have mined more ore.
the crux of the issue here is that if the hulk can't do that because it's docking up to get reloads or proper crystal types then the mack becomes the king of yield, cargo, and tank. which is the exact reasons for the change now; because the hulk is the king of yield cargo and tank. instead of solving the issue we've just shifted it from 1 ship to another.
people will now mindlessly train for a mackinaw instead of a hulk.
edit; ok not your last post, the one before since you ninja posted before i was finished :P second edit: i keep getting my ships up mixed. See, I would compare the two differently, I would say 5 hulks and 1 hauler vs 6 mackinaws The 6 hulks jetcan mine and use the hauler to bring them more crystals, and the macks mine into their own ore bay and dock to dump their ore each time and reposition. Of course neither of these are real world examples as, in 0.0 the cans will have popped before the belt gets mined and in high sec, the cans will have been flipped before you can blink that being said, I think its just a different mentality. IMHO if you want to min max it should require coordination and concentration between multiple people, and I believe having people haul you crystals is part of that.
jetcans last as long as you can be bothered to cycle them + 2 hours, and i haven't seen a high sec can flipper for quite a while.
the problem with that is it's effectively saying; you can only fly a hulk if you have multiple accounts. i shouldn't have to pay for multiple accounts to make a ship worth flying. [ok logi being the obvious counterpoint, but i'll think of a suitable rebuke for that later] even the boosting ships aren't subject to that. the orca/rorq make superb haulers when they aren't boosting and are being used in a solo situation. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
124
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 08:36:00 -
[395] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Sigras wrote:well, I think of it more as a role change. The hulk is supposed to rely on other ships to haul its ore away and to bring it more crystals, the mack isnt, its supposed to be more self sufficient than the hulk or skiff.
To that end, I can see buffing the macks cargo bay to 750 m^3 so it can carry a full set of crystals, and fulfill its role as self sufficient
I would also like to see the cargo bay of the skiff nerfed to 250 m^3 so it can carry 10 different sets of crystals half way between the hulk's 5 and the mackinaw's 15.
just my thoughts, but the hulk will actually work great even solo, I imagine my strategy would be to warp to one spot and mine out all of the different types of ore that i have crystals for, then pick up my cans with my hauler (theyre probably almost running out by then anyway), then get different crystals and warp back to the same spot to gather the rocks i missed the first time. Lather rinse repeat! oh i don't disagree that the mack should be more self sufficient. however i simply don't think crystals should come in to that; of course i don't want the hulk to be able to carry millions of crystals. as i've said enough space to pick between a single set of all the crystals, or being able to take a stack of a subset would be nice and gives more choices.
Thats where we differ, to me that isnt more choice. Who ever needs more than one set of a crystal. the freaking things last for 6 hours! Youre going to spend more than 6 hours mining the same rock type? not likely unless its king spod in the small belt.
Thats the problem I have with giving the hulk a set of the crystals, nobody in their right mind needs more than one group of each type so IMHO it removes choice from the equation.
Dave stark wrote:it's a quality of life change rather than any kind of mining buff, to be honest. it'll also stop people feel like they're being stonewalled in to flying a mack since it's slowly creeping in as the new hulk, then again with how poor the mack is vs it's t1 counterpart if it wasn't almost being given such godhood would any one buy it to begin with? really? you dont think the 10% mining bonus the hulk gets over the mack will make it the ship of choice? IMHO even with the lack of being able to fit full set of crystals, people are still going to be going for the hulk. 10% more of everything is a really big deal. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
124
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 08:43:00 -
[396] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:jetcans last as long as you can be bothered to cycle them + 2 hours, and i haven't seen a high sec can flipper for quite a while.
the problem with that is it's effectively saying; you can only fly a hulk if you have multiple accounts. i shouldn't have to pay for multiple accounts to make a ship worth flying. [ok logi being the obvious counterpoint, but i'll think of a suitable rebuke for that later] even the boosting ships aren't subject to that. the orca/rorq make superb haulers when they aren't boosting and are being used in a solo situation. well yeah i know that you can cycle cans, but if we're going for max efficiency . . .
and I guess I still dont get your aversion to having 5 sets of crystals, in high sec, you only run into 4 types of ore at one time anyway IIRC
And as you said before nobody mines in low sec because . . . well yeah . . .
So youre saying the problem is 0.0 and ive seen the belts in 0.0 the rocks are so huge, all you need is one type of crystals and youll be ready for a hauler (ok that might be a slight exaggeration but you know what i mean, 5 types is more than enough) |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
302
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 08:45:00 -
[397] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Dave stark wrote:Sigras wrote:well, I think of it more as a role change. The hulk is supposed to rely on other ships to haul its ore away and to bring it more crystals, the mack isnt, its supposed to be more self sufficient than the hulk or skiff.
To that end, I can see buffing the macks cargo bay to 750 m^3 so it can carry a full set of crystals, and fulfill its role as self sufficient
I would also like to see the cargo bay of the skiff nerfed to 250 m^3 so it can carry 10 different sets of crystals half way between the hulk's 5 and the mackinaw's 15.
just my thoughts, but the hulk will actually work great even solo, I imagine my strategy would be to warp to one spot and mine out all of the different types of ore that i have crystals for, then pick up my cans with my hauler (theyre probably almost running out by then anyway), then get different crystals and warp back to the same spot to gather the rocks i missed the first time. Lather rinse repeat! oh i don't disagree that the mack should be more self sufficient. however i simply don't think crystals should come in to that; of course i don't want the hulk to be able to carry millions of crystals. as i've said enough space to pick between a single set of all the crystals, or being able to take a stack of a subset would be nice and gives more choices. Thats where we differ, to me that isnt more choice. Who ever needs more than one set of a crystal. the freaking things last for 6 hours! Youre going to spend more than 6 hours mining the same rock type? not likely unless its king spod in the small belt. Thats the problem I have with giving the hulk a set of the crystals, nobody in their right mind needs more than one group of each type so IMHO it removes choice from the equation. Dave stark wrote:it's a quality of life change rather than any kind of mining buff, to be honest. it'll also stop people feel like they're being stonewalled in to flying a mack since it's slowly creeping in as the new hulk, then again with how poor the mack is vs it's t1 counterpart if it wasn't almost being given such godhood would any one buy it to begin with? really? you dont think the 10% mining bonus the hulk gets over the mack will make it the ship of choice? IMHO even with the lack of being able to fit full set of crystals, people are still going to be going for the hulk. 10% more of everything is a really big deal.
ok i'll go with you there; perhaps not a full set, but not such a limited set either. there are 8 minerals, as such i think a suitable compromise is that the hulk should be able to carry 8 sets of crystals so you can have crystals for each ore that yields the highest of a given mineral. a fair compromise?
well, if you can't carry the crystals then your 10% bonus is simply making up for your lack of t2 strips. although i think we've done this enough now, instead i'd like to share an idea i've had about t2 strips that may be another nice compromise.
make t2 strips have a similar [say 500? or 520?] base yield as t1 strips and reduce the bonus from crystals. this way i'm getting the bonus for things i'm carrying crystals for but i'm not penalised too heavily for things i haven't got crystals for. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
302
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 08:46:00 -
[398] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Dave stark wrote:jetcans last as long as you can be bothered to cycle them + 2 hours, and i haven't seen a high sec can flipper for quite a while.
the problem with that is it's effectively saying; you can only fly a hulk if you have multiple accounts. i shouldn't have to pay for multiple accounts to make a ship worth flying. [ok logi being the obvious counterpoint, but i'll think of a suitable rebuke for that later] even the boosting ships aren't subject to that. the orca/rorq make superb haulers when they aren't boosting and are being used in a solo situation. well yeah i know that you can cycle cans, but if we're going for max efficiency . . . and I guess I still dont get your aversion to having 5 sets of crystals, in high sec, you only run into 4 types of ore at one time anyway IIRC And as you said before nobody mines in low sec because . . . well yeah . . . So youre saying the problem is 0.0 and ive seen the belts in 0.0 the rocks are so huge, all you need is one type of crystals and youll be ready for a hauler (ok that might be a slight exaggeration but you know what i mean, 5 types is more than enough)
cycling a can doesn't stop you mining :P yeah high sec only has 4 types of ore, but not every one is a high sec miner :) Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
124
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 08:58:00 -
[399] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:ok i'll go with you there; perhaps not a full set, but not such a limited set either. there are 8 minerals, as such i think a suitable compromise is that the hulk should be able to carry 8 sets of crystals so you can have crystals for each ore that yields the highest of a given mineral. a fair compromise? Yeah I think that sounds good.
Edit: maybe 7 because morphite doesnt really count.
Dave stark wrote:well, if you can't carry the crystals then your 10% bonus is simply making up for your lack of t2 strips. although i think we've done this enough now, instead i'd like to share an idea i've had about t2 strips that may be another nice compromise.
make t2 strips have a similar [say 500? or 520?] base yield as t1 strips and reduce the bonus from crystals. this way i'm getting the bonus for things i'm carrying crystals for but i'm not penalised too heavily for things i haven't got crystals for.
That really would be interesting, so, if it were say 486 that would be a 10% hit when you dont have a crystal vs a strip miner 1, and the crystals would be changed to a 30% boost to keep them basically where they are now.
I really like that idea, it makes it viable to use strip 2s without crystals without nerfing strip 1s too badly
thats a cool idea. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
302
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 09:05:00 -
[400] - Quote
i could live with 7 i suppose. i mean if they hadn't nerfed the hulk's ore bay to 350 you'd be able to get 7 in the hulk. that'd be fine. yeah i could also live with 486 on the t2 strips as base that works for me.
from the fact that ccp keep adjusting things we know they're reading, i hope they throw these ideas around in their office after the weekend. i think we could be on to a winner here. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
|
Haffsol
Froody Guys Spaceships Business
9
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 11:02:00 -
[401] - Quote
So, at page 20 finally we've found an agreement to stop the dispute, something that already exists since (prolly) ever: ORE Strip Miner.
540 m3 yield, 17Km base range, no need for crystals. Correct me if I'm wrong but I never used them.
edit: page 21 actually :p |
Daddy Whorebucks
Black Bag Research Institution
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 11:05:00 -
[402] - Quote
Here is the math for Ice.
Max skills implants Orca Mind Link boosted with t2 Links.
Mackinaw has 2 strips, 3 IMU, one Ice Rig, +3 Yeti. it pulls in 2 blocks of ice per cycle. Cycle time is 101. 22 out of 3600 seconds (60 minutes or 1 hour) You get 35 cycles x 2 blocks = 71 blocks per hour.
Current Mackinaw pulls in 80 blocks per hour. thats a 9 block per hour loss.
at 250k a block (conservatively) that's a 2.25m per hour loss. the bright side is you have a 37k cargo hold so you only have to empty your mackinaw every 18 minutes.
Hulk has 3 strips, 2 IMU, one Ice Rig, +3 Yeti. It pulls in 3 blocks of ice per cycle Cycle time is 140.51 out of 3600 seconds (60 minutes or 1 hour) You get 25.2 cycles x 3 blocks = 76.8 blocks per hour.
at 250k a block (conservatively) thats a 800k per hour loss. the down side is a 7k hold you have to empty your cargo every other cycle at 5 minutes.
Hulks are now God. Macks are now nerfed to pointlessness. because no one in their right mind will sit afk for 20 minutes in a ice belt, with a ship thats STILL stupid easy to gank, because you still cant put a freaking Tank on it. I don't mind the loss for ease of access but come on. quit breaking stuff for the sake of "equality" If the poor slob doesn't have exhumer 5 he prolly wont be mining Ice. Keep the Mackinaw Ice Cycle time the same. Its pointless to nerf it. And balance the damn hulk ore hol |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
303
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 11:05:00 -
[403] - Quote
Haffsol wrote:So, at page 20 finally we've found an agreement to stop the dispute, something that already exists since (prolly) ever: ORE Strip Miner.
540 m3 yield, 17Km base range, no need for crystals. Correct me if I'm wrong but I never used them.
edit: page 21 actually :p
540 is the base yield for t1s, you are wrong. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Daddy Whorebucks
Black Bag Research Institution
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 11:13:00 -
[404] - Quote
Daddy Whorebucks wrote:Here is the math for Ice.
Max skills implants Orca Mind Link boosted with t2 Links.
Mackinaw has 2 strips, 3 IMU, one Ice Rig, +3 Yeti. it pulls in 2 blocks of ice per cycle. Cycle time is 101. 22 out of 3600 seconds (60 minutes or 1 hour) You get 35 cycles x 2 blocks = 71 blocks per hour.
Current Mackinaw pulls in 80 blocks per hour. thats a 9 block per hour loss.
at 250k a block (conservatively) that's a 2.25m per hour loss. the bright side is you have a 37k cargo hold so you only have to empty your mackinaw every 18 minutes.
Hulk has 3 strips, 2 IMU, one Ice Rig, +3 Yeti. It pulls in 3 blocks of ice per cycle Cycle time is 140.51 out of 3600 seconds (60 minutes or 1 hour) You get 25.2 cycles x 3 blocks = 76.8 blocks per hour.
at 250k a block (conservatively) thats a 800k per hour loss. the down side is a 7k hold you have to empty your cargo every other cycle at 5 minutes.
Hulks are now God. Macks are now nerfed to pointlessness. because no one in their right mind will sit afk for 20 minutes in a ice belt, with a ship thats STILL stupid easy to gank, because you still cant put a freaking Tank on it. I don't mind the loss for ease of access but come on. quit breaking stuff for the sake of "equality" If the poor slob doesn't have exhumer 5 he prolly wont be mining Ice. Keep the Mackinaw Ice Cycle time the same. Its pointless to nerf it. And balance the damn hulk ore hol
Here is some more numbers 4 mackinaw 1 orca max everything yadayada
5 hours of ice roughly equates to 500m worth of ice at about 100m per mack per hour. (if you make fuelblocks) with the new numbers it will be 420m for macks 470m for Hulks in the same time frame. Thats a 30-60 million isk difference. or 15m per hour less each mack pilot will earn. /end |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
303
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 11:37:00 -
[405] - Quote
Daddy Whorebucks wrote:Daddy Whorebucks wrote:Here is the math for Ice.
Max skills implants Orca Mind Link boosted with t2 Links.
Mackinaw has 2 strips, 3 IMU, one Ice Rig, +3 Yeti. it pulls in 2 blocks of ice per cycle. Cycle time is 101. 22 out of 3600 seconds (60 minutes or 1 hour) You get 35 cycles x 2 blocks = 71 blocks per hour.
Current Mackinaw pulls in 80 blocks per hour. thats a 9 block per hour loss.
at 250k a block (conservatively) that's a 2.25m per hour loss. the bright side is you have a 37k cargo hold so you only have to empty your mackinaw every 18 minutes.
Hulk has 3 strips, 2 IMU, one Ice Rig, +3 Yeti. It pulls in 3 blocks of ice per cycle Cycle time is 140.51 out of 3600 seconds (60 minutes or 1 hour) You get 25.2 cycles x 3 blocks = 76.8 blocks per hour.
at 250k a block (conservatively) thats a 800k per hour loss. the down side is a 7k hold you have to empty your cargo every other cycle at 5 minutes.
Hulks are now God. Macks are now nerfed to pointlessness. because no one in their right mind will sit afk for 20 minutes in a ice belt, with a ship thats STILL stupid easy to gank, because you still cant put a freaking Tank on it. I don't mind the loss for ease of access but come on. quit breaking stuff for the sake of "equality" If the poor slob doesn't have exhumer 5 he prolly wont be mining Ice. Keep the Mackinaw Ice Cycle time the same. Its pointless to nerf it. And balance the damn hulk ore hol Here is some more numbers 4 mackinaw 1 orca max everything yadayada 5 hours of ice mining roughly equates to 500m worth of ice at about 100m per mack per hour. (if you make fuel blocks) with the new numbers it will be 420m for macks 470m for Hulks in the same time frame. Thats a 30-80 million isk difference. or 15m per hour less each mack pilot will earn. /end
oh look another clueless person.
also check your maths agian, the new hulk mines less than 0.1 blocks of ice less than the current mackinaw per hour. there should be no appreciable difference in isk/hour between the two ships. also your cycle times are incorrect.
check your maths (even better just go and find the maths me and many others have done and all agree upon) then we can discuss it when you stop being so silly.
also these are the cycle times i, and others, are getting. varified here. and here. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Daddy Whorebucks
Black Bag Research Institution
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 12:09:00 -
[406] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Daddy Whorebucks wrote:Daddy Whorebucks wrote:Here is the math for Ice.
Max skills implants Orca Mind Link boosted with t2 Links.
Mackinaw has 2 strips, 3 IMU, one Ice Rig, +3 Yeti. it pulls in 2 blocks of ice per cycle. Cycle time is 101. 22 out of 3600 seconds (60 minutes or 1 hour) You get 35 cycles x 2 blocks = 71 blocks per hour.
Current Mackinaw pulls in 80 blocks per hour. thats a 9 block per hour loss.
at 250k a block (conservatively) that's a 2.25m per hour loss. the bright side is you have a 37k cargo hold so you only have to empty your mackinaw every 18 minutes.
Hulk has 3 strips, 2 IMU, one Ice Rig, +3 Yeti. It pulls in 3 blocks of ice per cycle Cycle time is 140.51 out of 3600 seconds (60 minutes or 1 hour) You get 25.2 cycles x 3 blocks = 76.8 blocks per hour.
at 250k a block (conservatively) thats a 800k per hour loss. the down side is a 7k hold you have to empty your cargo every other cycle at 5 minutes.
Hulks are now God. Macks are now nerfed to pointlessness. because no one in their right mind will sit afk for 20 minutes in a ice belt, with a ship thats STILL stupid easy to gank, because you still cant put a freaking Tank on it. I don't mind the loss for ease of access but come on. quit breaking stuff for the sake of "equality" If the poor slob doesn't have exhumer 5 he prolly wont be mining Ice. Keep the Mackinaw Ice Cycle time the same. Its pointless to nerf it. And balance the damn hulk ore hol Here is some more numbers 4 mackinaw 1 orca max everything yadayada 5 hours of ice mining roughly equates to 500m worth of ice at about 100m per mack per hour. (if you make fuel blocks) with the new numbers it will be 420m for macks 470m for Hulks in the same time frame. Thats a 30-80 million isk difference. or 15m per hour less each mack pilot will earn. /end oh look another clueless person. also check your maths agian, the new hulk mines less than 0.1 blocks of ice less than the current mackinaw per hour. there should be no appreciable difference in isk/hour between the two ships. also your cycle times are incorrect. check your maths (even better just go and find the maths me and many others have done and all agree upon) then we can discuss it when you stop being so silly. also these are the cycle times i, and others, are getting.varified here.and here.
I just sat on SISI with the ACTUAL ships and did all the math. 3 times its pretty damn simple when you break it down.
A current mackinaw with MAXIMUM SKILL draws 80 blocks per hour per ship. the new hulk doing 76 per hour is .1 mathmatically speaking. You need me to FRAP it for you dude? I'll sit there for a F'ing hour and mine ice on the test server to prove my damn point. IT GOT NERFED. oh and your not as good at math as you think. sucks for you.
|
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
303
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 14:04:00 -
[407] - Quote
Daddy Whorebucks wrote:Dave stark wrote:Daddy Whorebucks wrote:Daddy Whorebucks wrote:Here is the math for Ice.
Max skills implants Orca Mind Link boosted with t2 Links.
Mackinaw has 2 strips, 3 IMU, one Ice Rig, +3 Yeti. it pulls in 2 blocks of ice per cycle. Cycle time is 101. 22 out of 3600 seconds (60 minutes or 1 hour) You get 35 cycles x 2 blocks = 71 blocks per hour.
Current Mackinaw pulls in 80 blocks per hour. thats a 9 block per hour loss.
at 250k a block (conservatively) that's a 2.25m per hour loss. the bright side is you have a 37k cargo hold so you only have to empty your mackinaw every 18 minutes.
Hulk has 3 strips, 2 IMU, one Ice Rig, +3 Yeti. It pulls in 3 blocks of ice per cycle Cycle time is 140.51 out of 3600 seconds (60 minutes or 1 hour) You get 25.2 cycles x 3 blocks = 76.8 blocks per hour.
at 250k a block (conservatively) thats a 800k per hour loss. the down side is a 7k hold you have to empty your cargo every other cycle at 5 minutes.
Hulks are now God. Macks are now nerfed to pointlessness. because no one in their right mind will sit afk for 20 minutes in a ice belt, with a ship thats STILL stupid easy to gank, because you still cant put a freaking Tank on it. I don't mind the loss for ease of access but come on. quit breaking stuff for the sake of "equality" If the poor slob doesn't have exhumer 5 he prolly wont be mining Ice. Keep the Mackinaw Ice Cycle time the same. Its pointless to nerf it. And balance the damn hulk ore hol Here is some more numbers 4 mackinaw 1 orca max everything yadayada 5 hours of ice mining roughly equates to 500m worth of ice at about 100m per mack per hour. (if you make fuel blocks) with the new numbers it will be 420m for macks 470m for Hulks in the same time frame. Thats a 30-80 million isk difference. or 15m per hour less each mack pilot will earn. /end oh look another clueless person. also check your maths agian, the new hulk mines less than 0.1 blocks of ice less than the current mackinaw per hour. there should be no appreciable difference in isk/hour between the two ships. also your cycle times are incorrect. check your maths (even better just go and find the maths me and many others have done and all agree upon) then we can discuss it when you stop being so silly. also these are the cycle times i, and others, are getting.varified here.and here. I just sat on SISI with the ACTUAL ships and did all the math. 3 times its pretty damn simple when you break it down. A current mackinaw with MAXIMUM SKILL draws 80 blocks per hour per ship. the new hulk doing 76 per hour is .1 mathmatically speaking. You need me to FRAP it for you dude? I'll sit there for a F'ing hour and mine ice on the test server to prove my damn point. IT GOT NERFED. oh and your not as good at math as you think. sucks for you. Math is hard so lets break it down. Current mackinaw, orca mindlinked etc etc As good as CCP allows mackinaws to get right now. 60 seconds in 1 minute 60 minutes in 1 hour 60*60=3600 3 thousand six hundred seconds in 1 hour. Maxium cycle time of current Mackinaw? 187.12 s you still with me? ok here we go. 3600/187.12 = 19.2389 round that up to 19.24 19 and 1 quarter cycles per mackinaw per hour. how many blocks of ice per strip per cycle? 4 19.24* 4 76.96 4 mackinaws for 4 hours = 1 extra cycle per mack or 4x4 .25*4=1.00 or (4 quarters = 1 whole) In total 4 old macks equates to 308 blocks of ice per hour. at 250k a block = 77m (real price is much higher) the new Hulk is 307 blocks same exact fleet the new Mack is 287 blocks same exact fleet. Where is my math wrong. Im not refuting hulks arent the new king. I said it. Mackinaws which were NOT broken are now broken in a sad attempt to try and get people to mine. even tho they only doubled in number of HP's which most destroyers have in spades. why the hell am i gonna go spend 100 million MORE on a ship that is as EASILY ganked as a current mackinaw for the same profit.
you didn't provide any maths other than how to work out how many seconds in an hour. if ice mining was nerfed what stats have been changed because the maths i provided you with were correct and verified on sisi as the links show. either provide the stat changes and how you're getting those cycle times or your caps **** tantrum is worthless.
also 80 blocks an hour is a buff, not a nerf. either way nothing you've said so far is in any way informative. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Daddy Whorebucks
Black Bag Research Institution
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 14:18:00 -
[408] - Quote
and you've done nothing to disprove my math other then linking some crap from eft threads.
I, physically got on Singularity, made the rigs, got in the ship, booted up the God Boost Orca and actually mined for a little bit to get a feel for the new exhumers. Both the mackinaw and hullks. I then took the Cycle times. and converting it into numbers of cycles per hour, added the ice harvested per cycle. and im ******* correct. so eat a jolly green giant ****.
caps on a forum are provided for annunciation. look it up ****-tard. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
303
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 14:20:00 -
[409] - Quote
Daddy Whorebucks wrote:and you've done nothing to disprove my math other then linking some crap from eft threads.
I, physically got on Singularity, made the rigs, got in the ship, booted up the God Boost Orca and actually mined for a little bit to get a feel for the new exhumers. Both the mackinaw and hullks. I then took the Cycle times. and converting it into numbers of cycles per hour, added the ice harvested per cycle. and im ******* correct. so eat a jolly green giant ****.
caps on a forum are provided for annunciation. look it up ****-tard.
incorrect i linked posts from this thread where 3 people agreed upon the maths and if you click back a page or two i provide my workings.
no it proves you're a small child who has to hit caps lock because they lack eloquence, again if some thing has changed on sisi just point it out so maths can be adjusted rather than throwing your rattle out of the pram. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
82
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 14:47:00 -
[410] - Quote
Janet Patton wrote:Obviously if you want to mine everything in sight, you should be using tech I strip miners. You can also use tech 1 crystals in your tech II strip miners which take up less space then the tech II variant.
Specific ore and max yield or general all around rock cruncher. You have the pick. It really does seem like it's by design.
Maybe it's just my play style, but I never carry spare crystals on me. I can fill up several jet cans of the same ore before switching over to my hauler. If I need to change out crystals I do it at the station when I switch. This is part of the balance and sacrifice the most of the game follows when configuring your ship.
See that is your playstyle, and I have no problem with how you want to mine, but why should I have to follow your playstyle, I have my own, and I want to keep it. Senex Legio - Recruiter Team Member |
|
Arctos Canis
Ice Wolves
1
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 14:53:00 -
[411] - Quote
so many negative posts today :) must be Saturday kicking in :) just wanted to mention one positive thing. skiff drone bay has been increased to 50m3 :) so its a cool news |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
82
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 14:54:00 -
[412] - Quote
Gevlin wrote:I have multi Boxed up to 4 accounts, 1 Orca and 3 Hulks in both High sec and null sec
I have also run ops up to 20 in Nulls sec and 25 in high sec(nothing like clearing all belts out of a system)
I would assign or 2 types of ore to each hulk limiting the number of crystals required to be put in stock for the operation. I would assign a couple Hulks with miner I's to clean up the odd ore that didn't have much. (this would often be the empire based ore in the upgraded I-Hub Induced belts in null sec.)
Orcas would be used for hauling Boosting in,High sec, with some secondary help from a hauler(iity 5) that would focus on smaller groups or bins out of tractor range of the Orca. Moving everything to a POS to later be moved to a station via Freighter
In null sec I would haul with Rorqual or Orca with an Itty 5 support, while Boosting with a Rorqual. 1 Tanked Hulk would sit in the belt first to tank the Belt rats. Scouts (alts) in neighbouring systems. Lots and Lots of Bubbles.
The need for tonne of Crystals in a hulk is for the Solo or afk Miner... which is not longer the choice of ship for these people. They now have to make a choice, Convienience (Reteiver) or Or Max Yield The hulk.
Its a new age, And age of Choice, not longer is it simple get to the best ship and max it out. I really like CCP's approach of Balancing for Roles vs Tiers. It is reverse Power creep, it is awesome and really separates eve from other MMOs out there.
Before in my selection of ships it was retriever, or hulk. now I have to rethink my group make up completely. Rekindling my desire to mine again...... Procure is becoming my new favorite ship.
I really do not understand how you think mining asteroids is afk business for those who want a choice on hand of what crystals to use. I run 3 hulks with my rorq boosting and with a cycle time of 104 seconds you are constantly tabbing between the hulks to empty the ore, creating a new jet can every 2 minutes, watching local, killing rats is hardly afk business. Senex Legio - Recruiter Team Member |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
304
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 15:00:00 -
[413] - Quote
Arctos Canis wrote:so many negative posts today :) must be Saturday kicking in :) just wanted to mention one positive thing. skiff drone bay has been increased to 50m3 :) so its a cool news also old news. that happened yesterday. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
82
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 15:06:00 -
[414] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Dave stark wrote:Sigras wrote:Droxlyn wrote:Sigras wrote: What is your definition of "works"
Not taking away something that we could do before. You realize that by that definition there isnt a ship in the game that "works" When this game launched in 2003 you could fit armor repairers in the mid slots, my CEO still has a merlin fit that way. We cant do that any more, so none of the ships in game work . . . oh no, time to go back to WoW because they never nerf anything and just let power creep rule the day . . . i can understand nerfing things when they're out of line; but is being able to carry a full compliment of crystals really that unbalanced? well, I think of it more as a role change. The hulk is supposed to rely on other ships to haul its ore away and to bring it more crystals, the mack isnt, its supposed to be more self sufficient than the hulk or skiff. To that end, I can see buffing the macks cargo bay to 750 m^3 so it can carry a full set of crystals, and fulfill its role as self sufficient I would also like to see the cargo bay of the skiff nerfed to 250 m^3 so it can carry 10 different sets of crystals half way between the hulk's 5 and the mackinaw's 15. just my thoughts, but the hulk will actually work great even solo, I imagine my strategy would be to warp to one spot and mine out all of the different types of ore that i have crystals for, then pick up my cans with my hauler (theyre probably almost running out by then anyway), then get different crystals and warp back to the same spot to gather the rocks i missed the first time. Lather rinse repeat!
Who are you to decide how many crystals a hulk should be able to carry.
The option should be open for a player to decide how many crystals he wants to carry, not limited to some number someone pulled out of there ass. Senex Legio - Recruiter Team Member |
Captain CarlCosmogasm
Cosmogasm
1
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 15:10:00 -
[415] - Quote
CCP nerfed the miningbarge melt down yields. What am I gonna do with all these retrievers? |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
304
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 15:12:00 -
[416] - Quote
Captain CarlCosmogasm wrote:CCP nerfed the miningbarge melt down yields. What am I gonna do with all these retrievers?
sell them, it has ~3k cargo difference with a mackinaw which is less than 1 cycle of ore. it tanks high sec rats just as well as a mackinaw so i foresee demand going up. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Aurelius Valentius
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
140
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 15:14:00 -
[417] - Quote
I have been mining for a long time now, mainly HS, but on SISI have tested low, null and even wormholes to a small degree.
I was at first very much against this changed but they are growing on me now that I have had a bit of time with them. This thread is also interesting but getting out of hand... seems like Psychopathic Euclidean Discussion and Dissection Group here at some points.
Could we maybe start to post a few ship fits and see what is up with peoples minds... so far I have found my ship tests on SISI workable, though I think that the Procuror (might) and the skiff (prob) need a bigger drone bay to deal with big rats.
And all the ships should have a scaleable cargo bay - to the number of miners they have - basically factors of 1,2 3 x and then be able to place x cystals in the cargo for even replacements. for instance the hulk as 3x so I would like 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, etc as the ratio for cargo space, 2x for the mack hulls 2, 4, 6, 8, etc and finally just 1, 2, 3, 4, etc for the single mount skiff hulls.
The cargo holds are easy to deal with and can be worked out, the ore bays are an issue I think more than anything... I was posting before for a single size for all - 27,500 or larger. and then make it so that can would be pointless to jet.
Cargo rigs are worthless on these ships now, and the shield rigs are not going to be used much as to fit the tanks and walk the PG and CPU implants and rigs must be used. So the barges need a new source of resist buffs - something or they are going to be too expensive for the lack of any defense... my thought is they need either 2-3 mid slots or + to resists bonus... or no one will use them, if they had a decent tank people would likely use them more often and might not even go to a T2 ship depending on use.... atm people will simply run to the exhumers - tank, AFK, yield - but def running to T2.
I would have really liked a gas option (putting harvesters on exhumers at least if not barges also, and then an aux slot.... for trac, sal, prob or a cloak... but that is prob unlikely, making it very hard to see the skiff in null or wh space w/o a probe launcher as a solo ninja mining ship - that would have been very fun... but alas no. My PG is too small, my CPU insufficient, my crystals are too big and my cargo too small, I used to be named after a green guy but now it's more like family guy... what am I? |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
82
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 15:14:00 -
[418] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Dave stark wrote:Sigras wrote:well, I think of it more as a role change. The hulk is supposed to rely on other ships to haul its ore away and to bring it more crystals, the mack isnt, its supposed to be more self sufficient than the hulk or skiff.
To that end, I can see buffing the macks cargo bay to 750 m^3 so it can carry a full set of crystals, and fulfill its role as self sufficient
I would also like to see the cargo bay of the skiff nerfed to 250 m^3 so it can carry 10 different sets of crystals half way between the hulk's 5 and the mackinaw's 15.
just my thoughts, but the hulk will actually work great even solo, I imagine my strategy would be to warp to one spot and mine out all of the different types of ore that i have crystals for, then pick up my cans with my hauler (theyre probably almost running out by then anyway), then get different crystals and warp back to the same spot to gather the rocks i missed the first time. Lather rinse repeat! oh i don't disagree that the mack should be more self sufficient. however i simply don't think crystals should come in to that; of course i don't want the hulk to be able to carry millions of crystals. as i've said enough space to pick between a single set of all the crystals, or being able to take a stack of a subset would be nice and gives more choices. Thats where we differ, to me that isnt more choice. Who ever needs more than one set of a crystal. the freaking things last for 6 hours! Youre going to spend more than 6 hours mining the same rock type? not likely unless its king spod in the small belt. Thats the problem I have with giving the hulk a set of the crystals, nobody in their right mind needs more than one group of each type so IMHO it removes choice from the equation. Dave stark wrote:it's a quality of life change rather than any kind of mining buff, to be honest. it'll also stop people feel like they're being stonewalled in to flying a mack since it's slowly creeping in as the new hulk, then again with how poor the mack is vs it's t1 counterpart if it wasn't almost being given such godhood would any one buy it to begin with? really? you dont think the 10% mining bonus the hulk gets over the mack will make it the ship of choice? IMHO even with the lack of being able to fit full set of crystals, people are still going to be going for the hulk. 10% more of everything is a really big deal.
Right here I know you don't mine in null sec. With my 3 hulks, I picked 5-6 rocks in a large grav site last night. The bistot was at around 47,000m3, I put one set of lasers on that rock, and picked away at the other rocks in range with the other 2 hulks. Running with max rorq booster for about 5-6 hours, the other two hulks ran through 2 omber, 1 gniess, 2 kernite, 1 dark omber, 1 jaspet in the same time it took the hulk on the bistot rock to take it out.
I played the crystal limitation game and ended up scavenging bistot crystals from the other 2 hulks as my used crystals I took out blew out about 5x. Between the 2 hulks mining, it was a serious pain in the ass picking a rock with the crystals on hand each time I had to start on a fresh rock because I limited myself to crystal choices. Yes you can check damage on used crystals, but only if they are loaded in the strip miner. Who in there right mind are going to sit outside the station loading and unloading crystals to check for damage?
In the moderate grav belt there is a bistot rock that sits at 100k, you will not mine that with a single hulk in a 6 hour span. And I will not even mention the spud rock in the small grav.
Senex Legio - Recruiter Team Member |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
82
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 15:21:00 -
[419] - Quote
Arctos Canis wrote:so many negative posts today :) must be Saturday kicking in :) just wanted to mention one positive thing. skiff drone bay has been increased to 50m3 :) so its a cool news
That is indeed good news. Senex Legio - Recruiter Team Member |
Gevlin
SMANews.net SpaceMonkey's Alliance
179
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 16:00:00 -
[420] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:Gevlin wrote:I have multi Boxed up to 4 accounts, 1 Orca and 3 Hulks in both High sec and null sec
I have also run ops up to 20 in Nulls sec and 25 in high sec(nothing like clearing all belts out of a system)
I would assign or 2 types of ore to each hulk limiting the number of crystals required to be put in stock for the operation. I would assign a couple Hulks with miner I's to clean up the odd ore that didn't have much. (this would often be the empire based ore in the upgraded I-Hub Induced belts in null sec.)
Orcas would be used for hauling Boosting in,High sec, with some secondary help from a hauler(iity 5) that would focus on smaller groups or bins out of tractor range of the Orca. Moving everything to a POS to later be moved to a station via Freighter
In null sec I would haul with Rorqual or Orca with an Itty 5 support, while Boosting with a Rorqual. 1 Tanked Hulk would sit in the belt first to tank the Belt rats. Scouts (alts) in neighbouring systems. Lots and Lots of Bubbles.
The need for tonne of Crystals in a hulk is for the Solo or afk Miner... which is not longer the choice of ship for these people. They now have to make a choice, Convienience (Reteiver) or Or Max Yield The hulk.
Its a new age, And age of Choice, not longer is it simple get to the best ship and max it out. I really like CCP's approach of Balancing for Roles vs Tiers. It is reverse Power creep, it is awesome and really separates eve from other MMOs out there.
Before in my selection of ships it was retriever, or hulk. now I have to rethink my group make up completely. Rekindling my desire to mine again...... Procure is becoming my new favorite ship.
I really do not understand how you think mining asteroids is afk business for those who want a choice on hand of what crystals to use. I run 3 hulks with my rorq boosting and with a cycle time of 104 seconds you are constantly tabbing between the hulks to empty the ore, creating a new jet can every 2 minutes, watching local, killing rats is hardly afk business.
You have adjusted your play to the old afk model, instead of watching movies you now have additional account. I you experience you would most likely switch to Macks set up for max mining. SInce the hold are now larger you will most likly try to run an additional 2 accounts with the saved time. Mean while the person running 2 account may decide to work with 2 hulks because he can manage ships more effeciently.
With a hulk you have 14 cyrstals in the hold 3 pre loaded = how many Crystals do you need? Do not keep extras in you rorqual's corp hanger? Do you not plan the Roid types you plan to shoot? Do you ever take your miners off the belt because of Bio or a red comes in system. So you ever use your Drones to finish off asteriods or hit that one asteriod you don't have crystals for?
I am utterly surprised you did not mention or ***** about hauling. as that is the most time consuming task in Mining. and the Hauler is the one who can bring the replacement crystals to the miner... if they ever needed crystals.
Jake Rivers: You are a Multi Box AFK miner!
There was talk on the alliance panel from Senior Producer CCP Unifex of the idea of including mini activities between the mining cycle to gain possibly more yield or a bonus when the Roid pops (Officer ore? Old Drone Mineralsl maybe) Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
|
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
82
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 16:05:00 -
[421] - Quote
Gevlin wrote:Jake Rivers wrote:Gevlin wrote:I have multi Boxed up to 4 accounts, 1 Orca and 3 Hulks in both High sec and null sec
I have also run ops up to 20 in Nulls sec and 25 in high sec(nothing like clearing all belts out of a system)
I would assign or 2 types of ore to each hulk limiting the number of crystals required to be put in stock for the operation. I would assign a couple Hulks with miner I's to clean up the odd ore that didn't have much. (this would often be the empire based ore in the upgraded I-Hub Induced belts in null sec.)
Orcas would be used for hauling Boosting in,High sec, with some secondary help from a hauler(iity 5) that would focus on smaller groups or bins out of tractor range of the Orca. Moving everything to a POS to later be moved to a station via Freighter
In null sec I would haul with Rorqual or Orca with an Itty 5 support, while Boosting with a Rorqual. 1 Tanked Hulk would sit in the belt first to tank the Belt rats. Scouts (alts) in neighbouring systems. Lots and Lots of Bubbles.
The need for tonne of Crystals in a hulk is for the Solo or afk Miner... which is not longer the choice of ship for these people. They now have to make a choice, Convienience (Reteiver) or Or Max Yield The hulk.
Its a new age, And age of Choice, not longer is it simple get to the best ship and max it out. I really like CCP's approach of Balancing for Roles vs Tiers. It is reverse Power creep, it is awesome and really separates eve from other MMOs out there.
Before in my selection of ships it was retriever, or hulk. now I have to rethink my group make up completely. Rekindling my desire to mine again...... Procure is becoming my new favorite ship.
I really do not understand how you think mining asteroids is afk business for those who want a choice on hand of what crystals to use. I run 3 hulks with my rorq boosting and with a cycle time of 104 seconds you are constantly tabbing between the hulks to empty the ore, creating a new jet can every 2 minutes, watching local, killing rats is hardly afk business. You have adjusted your play to the old afk model, instead of watching movies you now have additional account. I you experience you would most likely switch to Macks set up for max mining. SInce the hold are now larger you will most likly try to run an additional 2 accounts with the saved time. Mean while the person running 2 account may decide to work with 2 hulks because he can manage ships more effeciently. With a hulk you have 14 cyrstals in the hold 3 pre loaded = how many Crystals do you need? Do not keep extras in you rorqual's corp hanger? Do you not plan the Roid types you plan to shoot? Do you ever take your miners off the belt because of Bio or a red comes in system. So you ever use your Drones to finish off asteriods or hit that one asteriod you don't have crystals for? I am utterly surprised you did not mention or ***** about hauling. as that is the most time consuming task in Mining. and the Hauler is the one who can bring the replacement crystals to the miner... if they ever needed crystals. Jake Rivers: You are a Multi Box AFK miner! There was talk on the alliance panel from Senior Producer CCP Unifex of the idea of including mini activities between the mining cycle to gain possibly more yield or a bonus when the Roid pops (Officer ore? Old Drone Mineralsl maybe)
Nice troll, please move on.
Senex Legio - Recruiter Team Member |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
304
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 16:06:00 -
[422] - Quote
hauling isn't the most time consuming part of mining what so ever, it's like 60 seconds to warp in and out of a belt.... vs the 20 mins spent mining the ore. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Haffsol
Froody Guys Spaceships Business
9
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 16:08:00 -
[423] - Quote
Quote:540 is the base yield for t1s, you are wrong. FYI 540 m3 is the base yeld for the ORE strip miners too
|
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
304
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 16:10:00 -
[424] - Quote
Haffsol wrote:Quote:540 is the base yield for t1s, you are wrong. FYI 540 m3 is the base yeld for the ORE strip miners too yes, because surprise surprise they're t1 strips... they don't take crystals. if they did take crystals every one would have them on their ship because t1 yield strips with crystals would be insanely op. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Haffsol
Froody Guys Spaceships Business
9
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 16:14:00 -
[425] - Quote
and who talked about using crystals on them? I just wanted to give you some shiny to fit on your hulk and not worry about crystals anymore |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
304
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 16:16:00 -
[426] - Quote
Haffsol wrote:and who talked about using crystals on them? I just wanted to give you some shiny to fit on your hulk and not worry about crystals anymore
except we'd already discussed the fact that a t1 strip hulk would be outmined by a t2 strip mackinaw and the obvious implications of that. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
JamesCLK
Lone Star Exploration Lone Star Partners
191
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 16:17:00 -
[427] - Quote
Haffsol wrote:Quote:540 is the base yield for t1s, you are wrong. FYI 540 m3 is the base yeld for the ORE strip miners too
That particular item is just a meta 6 faction strip miner; it has 2km more range and takes up 5 m3 instead of 100. Those are the only benefits.
As for crystals: Has the possibility of breaking them down into a more conventional "one unit per cycle" ammo type been discussed? Nothing changes in terms of use except you get to choose how many cycles of each crystal you want to bring instead of working in multiples of 200 (and getting fustrated when a crystal eventually breaks).
Just thought that might be a solution. |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
82
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 16:32:00 -
[428] - Quote
JamesCLK wrote:Haffsol wrote:Quote:540 is the base yield for t1s, you are wrong. FYI 540 m3 is the base yeld for the ORE strip miners too That particular item is just a meta 6 faction strip miner; it has 2km more range and takes up 5 m3 instead of 100. Those are the only benefits. As for crystals: Has the possibility of breaking them down into a more conventional "one unit per cycle" ammo type been discussed? Nothing changes in terms of use except you get to choose how many cycles of each crystal you want to bring instead of working in multiples of 200 (and getting fustrated when a crystal eventually breaks). Just thought that might be a solution.
Oh hell, that would drive you crazy trying to figure out how many stacks of each to bring out.
The system is fine as it is now, with the exception of the extremely large crystal size.
There is no reason why a mining crystal needs to be any larger than a frequency crystal. Senex Legio - Recruiter Team Member |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
304
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 16:48:00 -
[429] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:JamesCLK wrote:Haffsol wrote:Quote:540 is the base yield for t1s, you are wrong. FYI 540 m3 is the base yeld for the ORE strip miners too That particular item is just a meta 6 faction strip miner; it has 2km more range and takes up 5 m3 instead of 100. Those are the only benefits. As for crystals: Has the possibility of breaking them down into a more conventional "one unit per cycle" ammo type been discussed? Nothing changes in terms of use except you get to choose how many cycles of each crystal you want to bring instead of working in multiples of 200 (and getting fustrated when a crystal eventually breaks). Just thought that might be a solution. Oh hell, that would drive you crazy trying to figure out how many stacks of each to bring out. The system is fine as it is now, with the exception of the extremely large crystal size. There is no reason why a mining crystal needs to be any larger than a frequency crystal.
the crystal size isn't even the issue, it's the ******** allocation of ore bay vs cargo bay capacity when they separated them. 2250 cargo bay and 5750 ore bay would have solved the issue entirely but ccp decided that reducing the cargo bay to 350 from 500 was a better idea :herpderp: Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
82
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 16:58:00 -
[430] - Quote
If they reduced the crystal size to 1m3, storage would be a non issue.
I think the 7500m3 ore bay is fine, sometimes you miss dumping the ore, so the extra capacity is just a bonus for those moments of forgetfulness. Senex Legio - Recruiter Team Member |
|
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
304
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 17:01:00 -
[431] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:If they reduced the crystal size to 1m3, storage would be a non issue.
I think the 7500m3 ore bay is fine, sometimes you miss dumping the ore, so the extra capacity is just a bonus for those moments of forgetfulness.
if you miss dumping the ore you don't have room for a full 2nd cycle whether it's 5750 or 7500. if they just changed the 2 numbers then the issue would be dealt with but they went and changed all 28 [or is it 30?] mining crystal's size, the ore bays on the ship, all the strip miner's capacities etc.
more number changing was done than needed to be done in order not to fix the issue. the levels of stupidity in that decision knew no bounds. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Aetatis
Marquie-X Corp Ewoks
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 17:19:00 -
[432] - Quote
did someone notice that the exhumer did loose some of theri resistances yet? i read about half the posts and couldnt find someone mentioning it.
the description still says "7,5% bonus to all shiled resistances" per mining barge lvl. BUT jump in your hulk/mack/skiff and you will see only 25%.
first fo all i thought "well, exhumer lvl5 is missing" - due on maths this couldnt be the reason - i relogged with an alt and exhumer5 (just to be sure) and still 25% (look at the em-resistance - should be 37,5% on tranq).
is there any statement ?
a e e
p.s. fix those crystalls pls :) |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
304
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 17:20:00 -
[433] - Quote
yes we noticed, no ccp haven't said anything.
also it's based on mining barge level, not exhumer level. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Gevlin
SMANews.net SpaceMonkey's Alliance
179
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 17:22:00 -
[434] - Quote
[quote=Dave stark]hauling isn't the most time consuming part of mining what so ever, it's like 60 seconds to warp in and out of a belt.... vs the 20 mins spent mining the ore.[/quote
Consuming Task> Hulk point and shoot walk away for 1.5 mins if Super boosted and return. Hualer.. its go go go.. Gotta keep up, why can't There be fewer Miners, Why if I am a Max miner I am stuck hauling the Ore for the rest of the group in this Itty 5 Why is Bob mining at the opposite end of the belt. I wonder if anyone is going to ask for crystals today? Type of job.
The Hauler ends up being the 1 job that is tough to Multi Box in larger fleets.
When I did the 3 Hulks and 1 Rorqual Routine, After 1 hour 30 mins of mining I would drop the 3 miner climb into his hauler (a rorqual) and take 30 mins constantly hauling. leaving the Max hulk and tank hulk in the belt. Then the next 2 hour Session would begin. This was only done when I have someone with an alt able to watch the entry systems.
in that situation I never carried spares on the Hulks, As I would start the op with fresh crystals each time, giving my used crystals to the newbies around me. I would fit 1 Ore type to each top and have at it. Using my super range to allow me to sit in one spot. I never carried any because they would end up in the jet can if I had a spare.
For me 14 Crystals in a cargo area that I am not going to Jettison is paradise.
The hulk is the micro manage ship: - The Strip miners are 3 so lost cyle time from partial cycles are minimal because of roids only taking a cycle. - The yield per cycle is larger than any of the other boats - On the other hand you will go though more crystals, and have to "PLAN" you mining op to get the biggest haul, - You have the ability to target 6 roids vs the standard 4 -You have to rely on a hauler alt to do your hauling for you so you don't have to remove your self from the belt. - You are more incline to use your drones to finish off roids since you are using a scanner to know what is in each roid. - There is a lot of stuff a miner has to take into account if he want to get the biggest bang for buck
The Machinaw - The strip miners are 2 but have a multplier bonus, to ore bought in per rock - Less Crystals to go through, keeping down the cost. I don't have an unlimited supply by enough to allow me do my job if I do an ounce of pre-planning. - this ship is in fleet so the guy watching local is able to warp the fleet off to the POS if there is trouble _ Lock on to 2 different Asteroids and wait. Most likely the ABC in the Hidden I-Hub Belt as those roids are large fire and forget type of thing - The Drones are mainly ECM drones or PVP drones that only are released if you are the keyboard an you are tackled.
Skiff - The strip miner will have lost cycles on smaller roids but I can hit any asteroid, s I don't have to plan ahead on what I am mining. -If attack I can tank a bit if it is a small gang till help arrives. -My drones I used to finish off roids one at a time. -I can tank any rat, I am Cheap compared to a hulk so If I am lost mining in hostile territory I am not too worried about making money back to replace this ship. -I have a good sized of ore hold so I don't have to mirco manage it. -I am the perfect Newb/Numb ship! - I am also the poor guy who has to keep an eye on local. Hope those scouts don't fall asleep.
Procurer is going to be an awesome Low sec mining ship.... Sweet!
If the Hulk does not take the odd nerf we may experience a power creap and that would be bad. If you plan out your mining before hand you should not experience any loss in productivity in your Hulk if used in groups. Infact in Ice fields its strength increases taking over the role of the Machinaw. Meaning One less ship type to run, and an ability for that ship to have some form of tank.
Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
125
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 17:38:00 -
[435] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:Who are you to decide how many crystals a hulk should be able to carry.
The option should be open for a player to decide how many crystals he wants to carry, not limited to some number someone pulled out of there ass. Ok, so if I want to carry 30,000 crystals I should be able to do that right? because it should be up to me to decide how many crystals I want to carry right?
Once again, the sandbox doesnt mean that you can do whatever you want, it just means that you are given tools and YOU choose how to use them. CCP is giving you a tool and instead of figuring out how to use it, youre whining about it.
I was explaining this to people complaining about the tier/role changes, they said "CCP shouldnt determine what the ship should do, we should"
My rebuttal is that CCP decides what every ship in the game is good at, they design it for a reason but let you do other things with it.
What would a ship look like that didnt have any pre defined role at all?
It wouldnt have a cargo bay because that might "pre define" it as a hauler It wouldnt have any slots because that might "pre define" how its supposed to tank It wouldnt have any bonuses because that might "pre define" what its supposed to do. It wouldnt have any weapon slots because that might "pre define" that its a combat ship.
See the problem? |
Aetatis
Marquie-X Corp Ewoks
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 17:41:00 -
[436] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:yes we noticed, no ccp haven't said anything.
also it's based on mining barge level, not exhumer level.
well, thanks
i knew it is based on mining barge lvl :) its just - for example the german client isnt updated yet, you still have the old descriptions and stuff, i wanted to be sure !
|
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
82
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 17:44:00 -
[437] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Jake Rivers wrote:Who are you to decide how many crystals a hulk should be able to carry.
The option should be open for a player to decide how many crystals he wants to carry, not limited to some number someone pulled out of there ass. Ok, so if I want to carry 30,000 crystals I should be able to do that right? because it should be up to me to decide how many crystals I want to carry right? Once again, the sandbox doesnt mean that you can do whatever you want, it just means that you are given tools and YOU choose how to use them. CCP is giving you a tool and instead of figuring out how to use it, youre whining about it. I was explaining this to people complaining about the tier/role changes, they said "CCP shouldnt determine what the ship should do, we should" My rebuttal is that CCP decides what every ship in the game is good at, they design it for a reason but let you do other things with it. What would a ship look like that didnt have any pre defined role at all? It wouldnt have a cargo bay because that might "pre define" it as a hauler It wouldnt have any slots because that might "pre define" how its supposed to tank It wouldnt have any bonuses because that might "pre define" what its supposed to do. It wouldnt have any weapon slots because that might "pre define" that its a combat ship. See the problem?
Round and round we go!
We should only have 14 crystals, thats perfect for me, everyone else should be happy with that!
Thanks for the input!
Senex Legio - Recruiter Team Member |
Gevlin
SMANews.net SpaceMonkey's Alliance
179
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 17:45:00 -
[438] - Quote
oh did you see there are some new rigs coming out SISI
Medium Mercoxit Mining Crystal Optimizations - 250 Call, 16 % Mining amount Medium Ice Harvester Accelerator 250 Call, -12% Cycle Time
This should allow hulks to either specialize in Merxite or Ice harvesting... with this new Rig installed. will that beat the No tank Max Miner Machinaw currently on Trangquility?
Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
305
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 17:48:00 -
[439] - Quote
Gevlin wrote:oh did you see there are some new rigs coming out SISI
Medium Mercoxit Mining Crystal Optimizations - 250 Call, 16 % Mining amount Medium Ice Harvester Accelerator 250 Call, -12% Cycle Time
This should allow hulks to either specialize in Merxite or Ice harvesting... with this new Rig installed. will that beat the No tank Max Miner Machinaw currently on Trangquility?
yeah they were linked on like the first page of the thread, or the other thread... or both no, you need the rigs to be equal to the current role bonused barges. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
125
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 17:54:00 -
[440] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:Round and round we go!
We should only have 14 crystals, thats perfect for me, everyone else should be happy with that!
Thanks for the input!
yet it is you who is touting a "we should be able to do whatever we want" policy.
Try suggesting that in a PvP forum some time and see how well that goes over
Its called game balance, the hulk is now no longer the max yield miner AND the easy mode miner, you have to pick, so as i said before CCP added another interesting choice . . . choose |
|
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
305
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 17:58:00 -
[441] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Jake Rivers wrote:Round and round we go!
We should only have 14 crystals, thats perfect for me, everyone else should be happy with that!
Thanks for the input!
yet it is you who is touting a "we should be able to do whatever we want" policy. Try suggesting that in a PvP forum some time and see how well that goes over Its called game balance, the hulk is now no longer the max yield miner AND the easy mode miner, you have to pick, so as i said before CCP added another interesting choice . . . choose
you shouldn't have to choose to use crystals or not. especially when choosing not to use them makes an inferior ship better because it doesn't have to make that choice. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
37
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 19:08:00 -
[442] - Quote
Please change the Hulks Exhumer 3% ore yield bonus into a 3% reduced cycle time and capacitor use (like how it works with ice mining). Without this change for many detailed reasons, using the Hulk over a Mackinaw does not make a whole lot of sense.
Yes that includes its described role too! |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
305
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 19:11:00 -
[443] - Quote
Inspiration wrote:Please change the Hulks Exhumer 3% ore yield bonus into a 3% reduced cycle time and capacitor use (like how it works with ice mining). Without this change for many detailed reasons, using the Hulk over a Mackinaw does not make a whole lot of sense.
Yes that includes its described role too! please, detail these reasons for me; because i can't think of one reason why this is a sensible suggestion. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
82
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 19:14:00 -
[444] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Jake Rivers wrote:Round and round we go!
We should only have 14 crystals, thats perfect for me, everyone else should be happy with that!
Thanks for the input!
yet it is you who is touting a "we should be able to do whatever we want" policy. Try suggesting that in a PvP forum some time and see how well that goes over Its called game balance, the hulk is now no longer the max yield miner AND the easy mode miner, you have to pick, so as i said before CCP added another interesting choice . . . choose
I know, you can never win the argument on the internet with a kid.
Try some mining some time and once you figure out how it works, get back to me.
Senex Legio - Recruiter Team Member |
Gevlin
SMANews.net SpaceMonkey's Alliance
180
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 19:19:00 -
[445] - Quote
the reduce cycle time may increase yield in the long run per hour , and will have less waste from partially empty cycles because of empty asteroids which happen often in empire. In effect you get instead of getting 20% bonus you get 22.0% bonus.
that is just another min max thing. though not sure how it effects the Mack though as that bonus is so so minimal Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
Unit757
North Point Cannabis Legionis
16
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 19:31:00 -
[446] - Quote
ITT - lazy miners want max yield/easy mode hulk.
I will repeat myself again, the vast majority of PVP ships CANNOT carry every single type of ammo they have avalible to them, with the exception of amarr ships.
Quit you b-tching. Your just making yourselves look like idiots. CCP is giving you (and me, I guess, because I'll probably mine on the side when drunk), a god damn mining ship that can tank better then the vast majority of Heavy cruisers and battlecruisers I have ever flown! AND you still want more? Accept it, the hulk IS NOT suited for what you all want to do, use the one that is.
And on top of all this, I hope to god that everyone here who is asking for more crystal space is deep in null-sec. Because if your in high sec, I hope the sentry guns malfunction and pop you on the undock, because you only have 4 ore types in HS, and each ship can hold enough for that.
Quote:Please change the Hulks Exhumer 3% ore yield bonus into a 3% reduced cycle time and capacitor use (like how it works with ice mining). Without this change for many detailed reasons, using the Hulk over a Mackinaw does not make a whole lot of sense.
Yes that includes its described role too! You have orca bonuses for that, use it. Hulks bonuses are fine. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
305
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 19:37:00 -
[447] - Quote
Unit757 wrote:ITT - lazy miners want max yield/easy mode hulk.
I will repeat myself again, the vast majority of PVP ships CANNOT carry every single type of ammo they have avalible to them, with the exception of amarr ships.
Quit you b-tching. Your just making yourselves look like idiots. CCP is giving you (and me, I guess, because I'll probably mine on the side when drunk), a god damn mining ship that can tank better then the vast majority of Heavy cruisers and battlecruisers I have ever flown! AND you still want more? Accept it, the hulk IS NOT suited for what you all want to do, use the one that is.
And on top of all this, I hope to god that everyone here who is asking for more crystal space is deep in null-sec. Because if your in high sec, I hope the sentry guns malfunction and pop you on the undock, because you only have 4 ore types in HS, and each ship can hold enough for that.
we're idiots for wanting the exact same situation we are currently in, to be the same after the patch as there's no reason why it should be changed? sure. you'd be just as happy to pay double taxes next year for no improvement in service, i doubt it. [i don't care if that's a bad analogy] who gives a **** about the tank buff; it can go to hell if it means i can get the bullshit with the crystals fixed.
who cares where the miners are, changes should be considered with all aspects of the game in mind. however, yes nullsec is where this change is needed most.
Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
37
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 19:39:00 -
[448] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Inspiration wrote:Please change the Hulks Exhumer 3% ore yield bonus into a 3% reduced cycle time and capacitor use (like how it works with ice mining). Without this change for many detailed reasons, using the Hulk over a Mackinaw does not make a whole lot of sense.
Yes that includes its described role too! please, detail these reasons for me; because i can't think of one reason why this is a sensible suggestion.
For the ship that is supposed to yield the most per minute a small ore hold, hurt's the most. Boosts it even more in a fleet and you have to micromanage a lot and two things can happen on a regular basis:
1. You are distracted and your hold fills up, miners and one by one miners and drones stop working. 2. You can't in a timely fashion keep track of the status of each targeted rock and you run your miners too long.
The micromanaging related to point two is actually worsened in a fleet do to the faster cycle time while yield per cycle stays the same! These disadvantages reduce the hulks theoretical effectiveness advantage in a max yield environment.
Changing the bonus will accomplish three things:
1. You can fit closer to two full mine cycles in your ore hold, without expanding the ore hold by much or at all (did not do the exact math on that, but the effect itself is clear). 2. By having less yield per cycle, but faster cycles, the potential for wasted cycles and the need to micromanage a lot just to come close to theoretical max yield is reduced by 15%. 3. The yield of the new Hulk would no longer be 1.9% nerfed for ore mining versus what it is now.
The downside of faster crystals usage can either be solved by reducing crystals size (my preference) or increase the cargo hold of the hulk by say 20%. That would make the cargo hold 600 m3 and provide a bit more versatility too.
You see, the Hulk has compared to the Mackinaw several big drawbacks and its practical yield will not be close to the 15.5% theoretical number. It suffers form obscene micromanagement issues, especially in fleets. I would go as far as to state, it is the best solo miner if you can use jet cans and pick up the ore later. IN all other cases as it is, I would prefer the Mackinaw over the hulk for:
* More tank * More ore hold * Less micromanagement and more forgiving (less turrets to keep track of) * Less crystal degradation in the hand of a skilled miner, while proportionally the cargo bay is of equal size as that of the Hulk.
I really cannot see why one would use Hulks in a large fleet. Every time someone says that the logic is based on the higher theoretical yield and its relative vulnerability. But how having large disadvantages is somehow advantageous in a fleet is beyond me...sounds like crap to me. And given that all mining vessels benefit form being in a fleet and the hulk is the most vulnerable to downsides from being in one...what is exactly its role again?
The concept and theory crafting behind it just fails if it is not distinct enough in a positive way. The yield alone is clearly not enough to give it a purpose, but we can improve that by making mining in the hulk more efficient. Not by increasing theoretical yield further, but by increasing the practical yield.
Hence the need for the bonus change, because as it stands now, the Hulk is only good for solo mining without fleet bonus when you think about it. Only in that scenario will it have a clear enough advantage going for it, compared to the Mackinaw.
Granted clear enough is subjective, but given so many thing affecting your income, ore yield being only of medium importance, there must be more going for the Hulk then theoretical yield benefits in the order of 15%. And don;t get me even started if we are going a bit more tank on the hulk to close the EHP gap with the Mackinaw. |
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
37
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 19:41:00 -
[449] - Quote
Unit757 wrote:ITT - lazy miners want max yield/easy mode hulk.
I will repeat myself again, the vast majority of PVP ships CANNOT carry every single type of ammo they have avalible to them, with the exception of amarr ships.
False comparison, no matter how often you repeat it!
A combat ship is not in combat for 5 hours at an end......move on! |
Unit757
North Point Cannabis Legionis
16
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 19:44:00 -
[450] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Unit757 wrote:ITT - lazy miners want max yield/easy mode hulk.
I will repeat myself again, the vast majority of PVP ships CANNOT carry every single type of ammo they have avalible to them, with the exception of amarr ships.
Quit you b-tching. Your just making yourselves look like idiots. CCP is giving you (and me, I guess, because I'll probably mine on the side when drunk), a god damn mining ship that can tank better then the vast majority of Heavy cruisers and battlecruisers I have ever flown! AND you still want more? Accept it, the hulk IS NOT suited for what you all want to do, use the one that is.
And on top of all this, I hope to god that everyone here who is asking for more crystal space is deep in null-sec. Because if your in high sec, I hope the sentry guns malfunction and pop you on the undock, because you only have 4 ore types in HS, and each ship can hold enough for that. we're idiots for wanting the exact same situation we are currently in, to be the same after the patch as there's no reason why it should be changed? sure. you'd be just as happy to pay double taxes next year for no improvement in service, i doubt it. [i don't care if that's a bad analogy] who gives a **** about the tank buff; it can go to hell if it means i can get the bullshit with the crystals fixed. who cares where the miners are, changes should be considered with all aspects of the game in mind. however, yes null sec is where this change is needed most.
This is a ship revamp, its not supposed to be the same as before. You need to adapt to these changes as they come. I will agree with you on the fact that each barge should have a scaled cargo hold based on the number of lasers it has, so it can carry a REASONABLE amount of reserve crystals. But there is absolutely no way in hell you should be able to carry crystals for every single type of ore in existence. |
|
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
305
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 19:45:00 -
[451] - Quote
Inspiration wrote:Dave stark wrote:Inspiration wrote:Please change the Hulks Exhumer 3% ore yield bonus into a 3% reduced cycle time and capacitor use (like how it works with ice mining). Without this change for many detailed reasons, using the Hulk over a Mackinaw does not make a whole lot of sense.
Yes that includes its described role too! please, detail these reasons for me; because i can't think of one reason why this is a sensible suggestion. For the ship that is supposed to yield the most per minute a small ore hold, hurt's the most. Boosts it even more in a fleet and you have to micromanage a lot and two things can happen on a regular basis: 1. You are distracted and your hold fills up, miners and one by one miners and drones stop working. 2. You can't in a timely fashion keep track of the status of each targeted rock and you run your miners too long. The micromanaging related to point two is actually worsened in a fleet do to the faster cycle time while yield per cycle stays the same! These disadvantages reduce the hulks theoretical effectiveness advantage in a max yield environment. Changing the bonus will accomplish three things: 1. You can fit closer to two full mine cycles in your ore hold, without expanding the ore hold by much or at all (did not do the exact math on that, but the effect itself is clear). 2. By having less yield per cycle, but faster cycles, the potential for wasted cycles and the need to micromanage a lot just to come close to theoretical max yield is reduced by 15%. 3. The yield of the new Hulk would no longer be 1.9% nerfed for ore mining versus what it is now. The downside of faster crystals usage can either be solved by reducing crystals size (my preference) or increase the cargo hold of the hulk by say 20%. That would make the cargo hold 600 m3 and provide a bit more versatility too. You see, the Hulk has compared to the Mackinaw several big drawbacks and its practical yield will not be close to the 15.5% theoretical number. It suffers form obscene micromanagement issues, especially in fleets. I would go as far as to state, it is the best solo miner if you can use jet cans and pick up the ore later. IN all other cases as it is, I would prefer the Mackinaw over the hulk for: * More tank * More ore hold * Less micromanagement and more forgiving (less turrets to keep track of) * Less crystal degradation in the hand of a skilled miner, while proportionally the cargo bay is of equal size as that of the Hulk. I really cannot see why one would use Hulks in a large fleet. Every time someone says that the logic is based on the higher theoretical yield and its relative vulnerability. But how having large disadvantages is somehow advantageous in a fleet is beyond me...sounds like crap to me. And given that all mining vessels benefit form being in a fleet and the hulk is the most vulnerable to downsides from being in one...what is exactly its role again? The concept and theory crafting behind it just fails if it is not distinct enough in a positive way. The yield alone is clearly not enough to give it a purpose, but we can improve that by making mining in the hulk more efficient. Not by increasing theoretical yield further, but by increasing the practical yield. Hence the need for the bonus change, because as it stands now, the Hulk is only good for solo mining without fleet bonus when you think about it. Only in that scenario will it have a clear enough advantage going for it, compared to the Mackinaw. Granted clear enough is subjective, but given so many thing affecting your income, ore yield being only of medium importance, there must be more going for the Hulk then theoretical yield benefits in the order of 15%. And don;t get me even started if we are going a bit more tank on the hulk to close the EHP gap with the Mackinaw.
1. being distracted is not an excuse, and if you're distracted faster cycles is going to hurt more. 2. yes you can.
what do you mean made worse, you just hit f1 and wait for the asteroid to pop. there's really nothing to micromanage. i'd love to see your maths on that 15% by the way.
ok 1. you don't need 2 cycles of ore space 2. by having less yield and faster cycles you make the current crystal situation worse and all this micromanaging you speak of really doesn't exist. 3. the hulk isn't nerfed at all. it's yield is the same. it's fittings and bonuses are unchanged. honestly where are you getting this **** from?
i've just seen the word micromanagement again, i give up. you seem to have made up pretty much everything in your post so far, if i wanted to read bad fiction i'd borrow a copy of 50 shades of gray. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Unit757
North Point Cannabis Legionis
16
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 19:46:00 -
[452] - Quote
Quote:False comparison, no matter how often you repeat it!
A combat ship is not in combat for 5 hours at an end......move on!
You really think so? No, maybe they arn't in direct combat for 5 hours straight, but they can be away from any form of supply source for even longer then that, if the fleet didnt bring any haulers with it. |
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
37
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 19:50:00 -
[453] - Quote
Unit757 wrote:ITT - lazy miners want max yield/easy mode hulk. Quote:Please change the Hulks Exhumer 3% ore yield bonus into a 3% reduced cycle time and capacitor use (like how it works with ice mining). Without this change for many detailed reasons, using the Hulk over a Mackinaw does not make a whole lot of sense.
Yes that includes its described role too! You have orca bonuses for that, use it. Hulks bonuses are fine.
You fail at practical math application as you seem to miss every intrinsic consequence of such a change.
It keeps the theoretical output of the ship the same as it now on TQ, but it reduces the gap between theoretical and practical output., so the difference becomes meaningful. As such it is beneficial in a way the Orca is not...the Orca just compounds the problem by speeding the cycles up, thus creating a micromanaging hazard.
The hulk needs to have a real positive distinctive feature or else it won't be any better (in fact worse) then the Mackinaw which has clear, big advantages. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
305
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 19:51:00 -
[454] - Quote
Unit757 wrote:Dave stark wrote:Unit757 wrote:ITT - lazy miners want max yield/easy mode hulk.
I will repeat myself again, the vast majority of PVP ships CANNOT carry every single type of ammo they have avalible to them, with the exception of amarr ships.
Quit you b-tching. Your just making yourselves look like idiots. CCP is giving you (and me, I guess, because I'll probably mine on the side when drunk), a god damn mining ship that can tank better then the vast majority of Heavy cruisers and battlecruisers I have ever flown! AND you still want more? Accept it, the hulk IS NOT suited for what you all want to do, use the one that is.
And on top of all this, I hope to god that everyone here who is asking for more crystal space is deep in null-sec. Because if your in high sec, I hope the sentry guns malfunction and pop you on the undock, because you only have 4 ore types in HS, and each ship can hold enough for that. we're idiots for wanting the exact same situation we are currently in, to be the same after the patch as there's no reason why it should be changed? sure. you'd be just as happy to pay double taxes next year for no improvement in service, i doubt it. [i don't care if that's a bad analogy] who gives a **** about the tank buff; it can go to hell if it means i can get the bullshit with the crystals fixed. who cares where the miners are, changes should be considered with all aspects of the game in mind. however, yes null sec is where this change is needed most. This is a ship revamp, its not supposed to be the same as before. You need to adapt to these changes as they come. I will agree with you on the fact that each barge should have a scaled cargo hold based on the number of lasers it has, so it can carry a REASONABLE amount of reserve crystals. But there is absolutely no way in hell you should be able to carry crystals for every single type of ore in existence.
oh really things are meant to change? sure. however the issue that needs addressing currently just makes the mackinaw the new hulk. you just jump in to a mackinaw instead of a hulk without thought. that's why they are changing it because it's a situation they want to move away from but won't be. it's got nothing to do with adapting; it's about pointing out the situation they want to get away from isn't changing on a fundamental level.
exactly if the cargo was scaled the issue would go away; **** me the issue would have gone away if they left it at 500 like they did with the t1 variant instead of cutting it down to 350. and if the cargo was left at 500 we wouldn't have been able to carry every one; but we'd have enough space for a reasonable subset. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
305
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 19:52:00 -
[455] - Quote
Inspiration wrote:Unit757 wrote:ITT - lazy miners want max yield/easy mode hulk. Quote:Please change the Hulks Exhumer 3% ore yield bonus into a 3% reduced cycle time and capacitor use (like how it works with ice mining). Without this change for many detailed reasons, using the Hulk over a Mackinaw does not make a whole lot of sense.
Yes that includes its described role too! You have orca bonuses for that, use it. Hulks bonuses are fine. You fail at practical math application as you seem to miss every intrinsic consequence of such a change. It keeps the theoretical output of the ship the same as it now on TQ, but it reduces the gap between theoretical and practical output., so the difference becomes meaningful. As such it is beneficial in a way the Orca is not...the Orca just compounds the problem by speeding the cycles up, thus creating a micromanaging hazard. The hulk needs to have a real positive distinctive feature or else it won't be any better (in fact worse) then the Mackinaw which has clear, big advantages.
mining really doesn't have any micromanaging other than making sure lasers are on, and drones are on the closest asteroid. if the micromanaging was even remotely an issue it wouldn't even be considered the most afkable activity in eve. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
37
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 19:55:00 -
[456] - Quote
Unit757 wrote:Quote:False comparison, no matter how often you repeat it!
A combat ship is not in combat for 5 hours at an end......move on! You really think so? No, maybe they arn't in direct combat for 5 hours straight, but they can be away from any form of supply source for even longer then that, if the fleet didnt bring any haulers with it.
Not only need miners replacement crystals, they need to switch to different ores too, whereas in combat, two types of ammo is generally all you use, also knowing many of the ships carrying ammo never get to use even a small percentage of it before dying.
Meaning, there is plenty to pick up from the field as is. |
Unit757
North Point Cannabis Legionis
16
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 19:55:00 -
[457] - Quote
Inspiration wrote:Unit757 wrote:ITT - lazy miners want max yield/easy mode hulk. Quote:Please change the Hulks Exhumer 3% ore yield bonus into a 3% reduced cycle time and capacitor use (like how it works with ice mining). Without this change for many detailed reasons, using the Hulk over a Mackinaw does not make a whole lot of sense.
Yes that includes its described role too! You have orca bonuses for that, use it. Hulks bonuses are fine. You fail at practical math application as you seem to miss every intrinsic consequence of such a change. It keeps the theoretical output of the ship the same as it now on TQ, but it reduces the gap between theoretical and practical output., so the difference becomes meaningful. As such it is beneficial in a way the Orca is not...the Orca just compounds the problem by speeding the cycles up, thus creating a micromanaging hazard. The hulk needs to have a real positive distinctive feature or else it won't be any better (in fact worse) then the Mackinaw which has clear, big advantages.
Really? An orca creates a micromanaging hazard? You still have around 2 minutes to click something, and drag it to something else. thats ALL you have to do, and thats a hazard? The hulk brings in more yield then a mackinaw now, so there is your reason to use it over the hulk.
|
Gevlin
SMANews.net SpaceMonkey's Alliance
180
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 19:56:00 -
[458] - Quote
Unit757 wrote:There doesn't seem to be any reason to fly a Mackinaw, when the skiff brings in the same yield, with more tank?
IMO, the skiff and Mackinaw seem WAY to AFK friendly.
Interesting changes none the less, I'm willing to bet that people still won't tank them though.
able to fit 3 mining upgrades vs 2 so 9% bonus! Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
Unit757
North Point Cannabis Legionis
16
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 19:57:00 -
[459] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Unit757 wrote:Dave stark wrote:Unit757 wrote:ITT - lazy miners want max yield/easy mode hulk.
I will repeat myself again, the vast majority of PVP ships CANNOT carry every single type of ammo they have avalible to them, with the exception of amarr ships.
Quit you b-tching. Your just making yourselves look like idiots. CCP is giving you (and me, I guess, because I'll probably mine on the side when drunk), a god damn mining ship that can tank better then the vast majority of Heavy cruisers and battlecruisers I have ever flown! AND you still want more? Accept it, the hulk IS NOT suited for what you all want to do, use the one that is.
And on top of all this, I hope to god that everyone here who is asking for more crystal space is deep in null-sec. Because if your in high sec, I hope the sentry guns malfunction and pop you on the undock, because you only have 4 ore types in HS, and each ship can hold enough for that. we're idiots for wanting the exact same situation we are currently in, to be the same after the patch as there's no reason why it should be changed? sure. you'd be just as happy to pay double taxes next year for no improvement in service, i doubt it. [i don't care if that's a bad analogy] who gives a **** about the tank buff; it can go to hell if it means i can get the bullshit with the crystals fixed. who cares where the miners are, changes should be considered with all aspects of the game in mind. however, yes null sec is where this change is needed most. This is a ship revamp, its not supposed to be the same as before. You need to adapt to these changes as they come. I will agree with you on the fact that each barge should have a scaled cargo hold based on the number of lasers it has, so it can carry a REASONABLE amount of reserve crystals. But there is absolutely no way in hell you should be able to carry crystals for every single type of ore in existence. oh really things are meant to change? sure. however the issue that needs addressing currently just makes the mackinaw the new hulk. you just jump in to a mackinaw instead of a hulk without thought. that's why they are changing it because it's a situation they want to move away from but won't be. it's got nothing to do with adapting; it's about pointing out the situation they want to get away from isn't changing on a fundamental level. exactly if the cargo was scaled the issue would go away; **** me the issue would have gone away if they left it at 500 like they did with the t1 variant instead of cutting it down to 350. and if the cargo was left at 500 we wouldn't have been able to carry every one; but we'd have enough space for a reasonable subset.
It very well could be a typo on CCP's part, because it doesn't make any sense for the covetors hold to be bigger then the hulks. IMO, with the reduction is the overall tank on all of them, and if they bump the hulk back up to 500, They will be in a pretty solid position. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
305
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 19:59:00 -
[460] - Quote
Gevlin wrote:Unit757 wrote:There doesn't seem to be any reason to fly a Mackinaw, when the skiff brings in the same yield, with more tank?
IMO, the skiff and Mackinaw seem WAY to AFK friendly.
Interesting changes none the less, I'm willing to bet that people still won't tank them though. able to fit 3 mining upgrades vs 2 so 9% bonus!
fits 3 mining upgrades and more cargo space so you'll be hauling less which is an indirect yield bonus etc. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
|
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
305
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 19:59:00 -
[461] - Quote
Unit757 wrote: It very well could be a typo on CCP's part, because it doesn't make any sense for the covetors hold to be bigger then the hulks. IMO, with the reduction is the overall tank on all of them, and if they bump the hulk back up to 500, They will be in a pretty solid position.
very strong posibility. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
37
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 20:03:00 -
[462] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:1. being distracted is not an excuse, and if you're distracted faster cycles is going to hurt more. 2. yes you can.
what do you mean made worse, you just hit f1 and wait for the asteroid to pop. there's really nothing to micromanage. i'd love to see your maths on that 15% by the way.
ok 1. you don't need 2 cycles of ore space 2. by having less yield and faster cycles you make the current crystal situation worse and all this micromanaging you speak of really doesn't exist. 3. the hulk isn't nerfed at all. it's yield is the same. it's fittings and bonuses are unchanged. honestly where are you getting this **** from?
i've just seen the word micromanagement again, i give up. you seem to have made up pretty much everything in your post so far, if i wanted to read bad fiction i'd borrow a copy of 50 shades of gray.
Essentially you are telling me here, without realizing it, that you were dropped stupendously hard on your head right at birth! Need I go on?
Just log onto the test server, fit a few ships, compare results with main server and between the various ships. Also go mine anywhere for a few months to see how it really works.
Then you can come back for mining discussions as honestly no miner here will believe you ever touched one in your life! |
Aestivalis Saidrian
SplitPush Mercantiles
34
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 20:03:00 -
[463] - Quote
Unit757 wrote: I will repeat myself again, the vast majority of PVP ships CANNOT carry every single type of ammo they have avalible to them, with the exception of amarr ships.
People use other ammo types? I mean...
Hybrids have Null/Void
Projectiles have Barrage EMP/PP/Fusion
Missiles are Scourge.
Lasers are Scorch. Maybe INMF.
Back on topic:
The Orca's untouched. As it stands, you can have a Fleet Command Ship giving bonuses and not miss the Orca at all. |
Unit757
North Point Cannabis Legionis
16
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 20:08:00 -
[464] - Quote
Aestivalis Saidrian wrote:Unit757 wrote: I will repeat myself again, the vast majority of PVP ships CANNOT carry every single type of ammo they have avalible to them, with the exception of amarr ships.
People use other ammo types? I mean... Hybrids have Null/Void Projectiles have Barrage EMP/PP/Fusion Missiles are Scourge. Lasers are Scorch. Maybe INMF. Back on topic: The Orca's untouched. As it stands, you can have a Fleet Command Ship giving bonuses and not miss the Orca at all.
Was more just pointing out they cant if they wanted to, I know they rarely ever carry more then 2 types.
Quote:Essentially you are telling me here, without realizing it, that you were dropped stupendously hard on your head right at birth! Need I go on?
Just log onto the test server, fit a few ships, compare results with main server and between the various ships. Also go mine anywhere for a few months to see how it really works.
Then you can come back for mining discussions as honestly no miner here will believe you ever touched one in your life!
How about you get your head out of your ass, and offer some constructive feedback, rather then insulting anyone who even mildly disagrees with you? If Dave got dropped on his head, then you must have fallen down a flight of stairs and hit a concrete wall. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
305
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 20:09:00 -
[465] - Quote
Inspiration wrote:Dave stark wrote:1. being distracted is not an excuse, and if you're distracted faster cycles is going to hurt more. 2. yes you can.
what do you mean made worse, you just hit f1 and wait for the asteroid to pop. there's really nothing to micromanage. i'd love to see your maths on that 15% by the way.
ok 1. you don't need 2 cycles of ore space 2. by having less yield and faster cycles you make the current crystal situation worse and all this micromanaging you speak of really doesn't exist. 3. the hulk isn't nerfed at all. it's yield is the same. it's fittings and bonuses are unchanged. honestly where are you getting this **** from?
i've just seen the word micromanagement again, i give up. you seem to have made up pretty much everything in your post so far, if i wanted to read bad fiction i'd borrow a copy of 50 shades of gray. Essentially you are telling me here, without realizing it, that you were dropped stupendously hard on your head right at birth! Need I go on? Just log onto the test server, fit a few ships, compare results with main server and between the various ships. Also go mine anywhere for a few months to see how it really works. Then you can come back for mining discussions as honestly no miner here will believe you ever touched one in your life! considering i'm one of the 3 people who in this thread worked out the new ice mining yields... try again
my point; if you missed it, which i'm sure you did... is that when i present a number i back it up with calculations rather than just making it appear out of thin air. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
37
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 20:19:00 -
[466] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Inspiration wrote:Unit757 wrote:ITT - lazy miners want max yield/easy mode hulk. Quote:Please change the Hulks Exhumer 3% ore yield bonus into a 3% reduced cycle time and capacitor use (like how it works with ice mining). Without this change for many detailed reasons, using the Hulk over a Mackinaw does not make a whole lot of sense.
Yes that includes its described role too! You have orca bonuses for that, use it. Hulks bonuses are fine. You fail at practical math application as you seem to miss every intrinsic consequence of such a change. It keeps the theoretical output of the ship the same as it now on TQ, but it reduces the gap between theoretical and practical output., so the difference becomes meaningful. As such it is beneficial in a way the Orca is not...the Orca just compounds the problem by speeding the cycles up, thus creating a micromanaging hazard. The hulk needs to have a real positive distinctive feature or else it won't be any better (in fact worse) then the Mackinaw which has clear, big advantages. mining really doesn't have any micromanaging other than making sure lasers are on, and drones are on the closest asteroid. if the micromanaging was even remotely an issue it wouldn't even be considered the most afkable activity in eve.
Considered by whom? People that never did never did any mining at all?
Simple exercise, bear with me, this is mining lesson 1...you up for it rookie?
1. A rock has 11750 Veldspar in it 2. Per cycle, you extract 16000 velspar 3. Your cycle time is 3 minues.
Questions:
1. After how much time is it a good idea to switch off the strip miner and activate it on the next rock? 2. If you wait the full 3 minutes, how much yield per minute did you just downgrade your Hulk to?
Ore mining does not equal Ice mining, where there the ice cubes are essentially endless and always of identical size. With Ore mining if let alone you sometimes waste a full cycle just to gain 63 units of Veldspar!
That is, if you do not monitor your progress using a scanner and keep track of how much the rocks have left, and that for multiple accounts obviously, else mining is a dumb thing to do.
Not seeing the micro-management and thinking its is an AFK profession, just means one of four things:
1. Your a troll. 2. Your head was hit hard at birth when you dropped from the stairway (not your fault). 3. You never mined at all. 4. You mined, but are extremely bad at it. 5. You could obviously just be plain stupid (not your fault either).
Why are you even posting here, when you obviously know nothing at all about the intricacies of mining? Let alone, why are you even arguing with people if you know you know nothing about mining? |
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
37
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 20:26:00 -
[467] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Inspiration wrote:Dave stark wrote:1. being distracted is not an excuse, and if you're distracted faster cycles is going to hurt more. 2. yes you can.
what do you mean made worse, you just hit f1 and wait for the asteroid to pop. there's really nothing to micromanage. i'd love to see your maths on that 15% by the way.
ok 1. you don't need 2 cycles of ore space 2. by having less yield and faster cycles you make the current crystal situation worse and all this micromanaging you speak of really doesn't exist. 3. the hulk isn't nerfed at all. it's yield is the same. it's fittings and bonuses are unchanged. honestly where are you getting this **** from?
i've just seen the word micromanagement again, i give up. you seem to have made up pretty much everything in your post so far, if i wanted to read bad fiction i'd borrow a copy of 50 shades of gray. Essentially you are telling me here, without realizing it, that you were dropped stupendously hard on your head right at birth! Need I go on? Just log onto the test server, fit a few ships, compare results with main server and between the various ships. Also go mine anywhere for a few months to see how it really works. Then you can come back for mining discussions as honestly no miner here will believe you ever touched one in your life! considering i'm one of the 3 people who in this thread worked out the new ice mining yields... try again my point; if you missed it, which i'm sure you did... is that when i present a number i back it up with calculations rather than just making it appear out of thin air.
No, your just indulge yourself (and others) with you assumptions. If you want to know how it will be, go to the test server and measure....that is what you will get, not what your own match tells you. By arguing math explanations, you just turn the discussion into a long winded distraction.
Of course it can always be that the test server is incorrect and you found a bug (there is one i know of), but when that version is moved to the live server, it won't suddenly behave according to your math. Hence making your demand for formulas pointless. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
305
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 20:27:00 -
[468] - Quote
Inspiration wrote: Considered by whom? People that never did never did any mining at all?
Simple exercise, bear with me, this is mining lesson 1...you up for it rookie?
1. A rock has 11750 Veldspar in it 2. Per cycle, you extract 16000 velspar 3. Your cycle time is 3 minues.
Questions:
1. After how much time is it a good idea to switch off the strip miner and activate it on the next rock? 2. If you wait the full 3 minutes, how much yield per minute did you just downgrade your Hulk to?
Ore mining does not equal Ice mining, where there the ice cubes are essentially endless and always of identical size. With Ore mining if let alone you sometimes waste a full cycle just to gain 63 units of Veldspar!
That is, if you do not monitor your progress using a scanner and keep track of how much the rocks have left, and that for multiple accounts obviously, else mining is a dumb thing to do.
Not seeing the micro-management and thinking its is an AFK profession, just means one of four things:
1. Your a troll. 2. Your head was hit hard at birth when you dropped from the stairway (not your fault). 3. You never mined at all. 4. You mined, but are extremely bad at it. 5. You could obviously just be plain stupid (not your fault either).
Why are you even posting here, when you obviously know nothing at all about the intricacies of mining? Let alone, why are you even arguing with people if you know you know nothing about mining?
your attempts at being condescending are cute. i'm not doing your maths for you; if you can't do it yourself stop throwing out made up numbers. also even if you do know the exact moment when you *should* turn off your mining lasers, in practice you'll never do it.
"must be 1 of 4 options" *lists 5 options* and there's my confirmation that your maths is all bollocks; you can't even count to 5 properly.
why am i posting here? i've already contributed more in this thread than you have. i clearly know more than you about mining based on the fact that i can actually do the maths that the subject is based on. please; stop projecting. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
305
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 20:29:00 -
[469] - Quote
Inspiration wrote:Dave stark wrote:Inspiration wrote:Dave stark wrote:1. being distracted is not an excuse, and if you're distracted faster cycles is going to hurt more. 2. yes you can.
what do you mean made worse, you just hit f1 and wait for the asteroid to pop. there's really nothing to micromanage. i'd love to see your maths on that 15% by the way.
ok 1. you don't need 2 cycles of ore space 2. by having less yield and faster cycles you make the current crystal situation worse and all this micromanaging you speak of really doesn't exist. 3. the hulk isn't nerfed at all. it's yield is the same. it's fittings and bonuses are unchanged. honestly where are you getting this **** from?
i've just seen the word micromanagement again, i give up. you seem to have made up pretty much everything in your post so far, if i wanted to read bad fiction i'd borrow a copy of 50 shades of gray. Essentially you are telling me here, without realizing it, that you were dropped stupendously hard on your head right at birth! Need I go on? Just log onto the test server, fit a few ships, compare results with main server and between the various ships. Also go mine anywhere for a few months to see how it really works. Then you can come back for mining discussions as honestly no miner here will believe you ever touched one in your life! considering i'm one of the 3 people who in this thread worked out the new ice mining yields... try again my point; if you missed it, which i'm sure you did... is that when i present a number i back it up with calculations rather than just making it appear out of thin air. No, your just indulge yourself (and others) with you assumptions. If you want to know how it will be, go to the test server and measure....that is what you will get, not what your own match tells you. By arguing math explanations, you just turn the discussion into a long winded distraction. Of course it can always be that the test server is incorrect and you found a bug (there is one i know of), but when that version is moved to the live server, it won't suddenly behave according to your math. Hence making your demand for formulas pointless.
it's only an assumption until it's proven, which it was proven by the fact that two other people also got the same results as me. except, we didn't find a bug. the maths matched the reality. having the formulas proves whether it is or is not a bug as the maths will match reality or it won't. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
37
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 20:37:00 -
[470] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:your attempts at being condescending are cute. i'm not doing your maths for you; if you can't do it yourself stop throwing out made up numbers. also even if you do know the exact moment when you *should* turn off your mining lasers, in practice you'll never do it.
"must be 1 of 4 options" *lists 5 options* and there's my confirmation that your maths is all bollocks; you can't even count to 5 properly.
why am i posting here? i've already contributed more in this thread than you have. i clearly know more than you about mining based on the fact that i can actually do the maths that the subject is based on. please; stop projecting.
Your absolutely delusional in your response....you are not contributing anything in our discussion, that is for sure. All you done and continue to do is ignore facts and then throw even more sand.
And i got news for you, this subject is NOT about math, time to widen your world view and deal with practical matters for a change. You seem to live in a theoretical world, full with assumptions about me being lazy and not turning of my miners to keep as efficient as possible for example. In fact, your approach completely ignores the possibility and its effects. Yet you still claim to have proven you know more about mining.
You are like an EFT warrior claiming to know how to win every fight as his math (as done by EFT) dictates his solution has the highest tank and gank numbers possible. Yet still dies in the first 40 seconds of a dual, never having a chance in hell.
That is what you can do with math!
|
|
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
305
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 20:44:00 -
[471] - Quote
Inspiration wrote:Dave stark wrote:your attempts at being condescending are cute. i'm not doing your maths for you; if you can't do it yourself stop throwing out made up numbers. also even if you do know the exact moment when you *should* turn off your mining lasers, in practice you'll never do it.
"must be 1 of 4 options" *lists 5 options* and there's my confirmation that your maths is all bollocks; you can't even count to 5 properly.
why am i posting here? i've already contributed more in this thread than you have. i clearly know more than you about mining based on the fact that i can actually do the maths that the subject is based on. please; stop projecting. Your absolutely delusional in your response....you are not contributing anything in our discussion, that is for sure. All you done and continue to do is ignore facts and then throw even more sand. And i got news for you, this subject is NOT about math, time to widen your world view and deal with practical matters for a change. You seem to live in a theoretical world, full with assumptions about me being lazy and not turning of my miners to keep as efficient as possible for example. In fact, your approach completely ignores the possibility and its effects. Yet you still claim to have proven you know more about mining. You are like an EFT warrior claiming to know how to win every fight as his math (as done by EFT) dictates his solution has the highest tank and gank numbers possible. Yet still dies in the first 40 seconds of a dual, never having a chance in hell. That is what you can do with math!
it was past tense; reading is as good as your maths i see. when your argument was based around % values that you didn't back up; and still haven't backed up. then yes, it is about maths. you made it that way.
oh please, i do consider the practical applications. however going "i will dock up less in a mackinaw" means nothing unless you know how many times you dock up, how long that will take, etc so you can calculate [woops, more maths again] which ship is truly more viable. for example for short sessions the mackinaw is superior to the hulk, however if you've got an orca that you can use to haul and you're able to stay out in the belt for a couple of hours the hulk becomes the highest yield ship even when solo mining regardless of the mackinaw's logistical bonus.
we're not talking about fights that have random variables such as human responses; it's mining where a rock has x ore and my ship mines y yield. there's no variables to consider that don't have a quantity. some are harder to measure than others; but they are measurable.
anyway; care to contribute to the thread rather than making a fool of yourself? Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Unit757
North Point Cannabis Legionis
16
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 20:48:00 -
[472] - Quote
Dave, either Inspiration is really, really, REALLY dumb, or you are being trolled. Either way, it's time to move on ;) |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
305
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 20:49:00 -
[473] - Quote
Unit757 wrote:Dave, either Inspiration is really, really, REALLY dumb, or you are being trolled. Either way, it's time to move on ;) but i pity trolls, it's not often they get out from under their bridge. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
37
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 20:57:00 -
[474] - Quote
Here some facts with screen dumps so you can comprehend it too!
Hulk, dual with dual MLU: http://clip2net.com/s/29Ryz
Every 3 minutes, 3 x 1593 m3 = 4779 m3 theoretical peak
Mackinaw with tripple MLU: http://clip2net.com/s/29Rz1
Every 3 minutes, 2 x 2068 m3 = 4136 m3 theoretical peak
Both fits can use 5 T2 mining drones on top of these yields, and given they mine just as fast/good on each ship the percentage difference would be skewed to a smaller number if included. We are just going to compare the strip miner numbers here.
4779 / 4136 = 1.1554 = 15.54% more theoretical output on the strip miners on the hulk in a perfect world.
Since all fleet bonuses are just percentages and both ships are affected identical the difference expressed in percentage after bonuses applied, remain the same. The you got where the number comes from!
|
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
305
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 21:04:00 -
[475] - Quote
Inspiration wrote:Here some facts with screen dumps so you can comprehend it too! Hulk, dual with dual MLU: http://clip2net.com/s/29RyzEvery 3 minutes, 3 x 1593 m3 = 4779 m3 theoretical peak Mackinaw with tripple MLU: http://clip2net.com/s/29Rz1Every 3 minutes, 2 x 2068 m3 = 4136 m3 theoretical peak Both fits can use 5 T2 mining drones on top of these yields, and given they mine just as fast/good on each ship the percentage difference would be skewed to a smaller number if included. We are just going to compare the strip miner numbers here. 4779 / 4136 = 1.1554 = 15.54% more theoretical output on the strip miners on the hulk in a perfect world. Since all fleet bonuses are just percentages and both ships are affected identical the difference expressed in percentage after bonuses applied, remain the same. The you got where the number comes from!
very nice but your 15% was referenced to your idea of changing the yield bonus to a cycle time bonus, not comparing one ship to another.
Inspiration wrote:Changing the bonus will accomplish three things: [snip] 2. By having less yield per cycle, but faster cycles, the potential for wasted cycles and the need to micromanage a lot just to come close to theoretical max yield is reduced by 15%.[snip]
could you proof read and make sure you're actually being coherent before hitting "post" please? Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
37
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 21:10:00 -
[476] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:it was past tense; reading is as good as your maths i see. when your argument was based around % values that you didn't back up; and still haven't backed up. then yes, it is about maths. you made it that way.
oh please, i do consider the practical applications. however going "i will dock up less in a mackinaw" means nothing unless you know how many times you dock up, how long that will take, etc so you can calculate [woops, more maths again] which ship is truly more viable. for example for short sessions the mackinaw is superior to the hulk, however if you've got an orca that you can use to haul and you're able to stay out in the belt for a couple of hours the hulk becomes the highest yield ship even when solo mining regardless of the mackinaw's logistical bonus.
we're not talking about fights that have random variables such as human responses; it's mining where a rock has x ore and my ship mines y yield. there's no variables to consider that don't have a quantity. some are harder to measure than others; but they are measurable.
anyway; care to contribute to the thread rather than making a fool of yourself?
No, there is nothing we can measure about real rock status on the live server. It changes every day and hence the importance to reason in concepts as well as numbers. Most reasoning can be perfectly done without numbers, in fact nearly all reasoning is done without any numbers as all in our life.
In the meantime I posted the details where that 15.5% came from, and if you had the will to be constructive, you would have immediately understood where i was coming from. Just like another did when I explained in excruciating detail why the Mackinaw is so much better and the Hulk not really a fleet ship like they intended it to be.
You pretty much ignored me at every step of the way, just acting more ignorant after every post. If you trying to make up for that now, fine, but realize you never even tried to understand anything i wrote. This makes you look like you have no idea what you are talking about, and i stand by that.
If you cannot take the heat, don't ignite the fire! |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
305
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 21:20:00 -
[477] - Quote
Inspiration wrote:Dave stark wrote:it was past tense; reading is as good as your maths i see. when your argument was based around % values that you didn't back up; and still haven't backed up. then yes, it is about maths. you made it that way.
oh please, i do consider the practical applications. however going "i will dock up less in a mackinaw" means nothing unless you know how many times you dock up, how long that will take, etc so you can calculate [woops, more maths again] which ship is truly more viable. for example for short sessions the mackinaw is superior to the hulk, however if you've got an orca that you can use to haul and you're able to stay out in the belt for a couple of hours the hulk becomes the highest yield ship even when solo mining regardless of the mackinaw's logistical bonus.
we're not talking about fights that have random variables such as human responses; it's mining where a rock has x ore and my ship mines y yield. there's no variables to consider that don't have a quantity. some are harder to measure than others; but they are measurable.
anyway; care to contribute to the thread rather than making a fool of yourself? No, there is nothing we can measure about real rock status on the live server. It changes every day and hence the importance to reason in concepts as well as numbers. Most reasoning can be perfectly done without numbers, in fact nearly all reasoning is done without any numbers as all in our life. In the meantime I posted the details where that 15.5% came from, and if you had the will to be constructive, you would have immediately understood where i was coming from. Just like another did when I explained in excruciating detail why the Mackinaw is so much better and the Hulk not really a fleet ship like they intended it to be. You pretty much ignored me at every step of the way, just acting more ignorant after every post. If you trying to make up for that now, fine, but realize you never even tried to understand anything i wrote. This makes you look like you have no idea what you are talking about, and i stand by that. If you cannot take the heat, don't ignite the fire!
yes, there is. magical module called a survey scanner. you know exactly how much has respawned. you can measure it. reasoning is not proving. actually, it's not. there's a whole branch of mathematics dedicated to it, it's called statistics. just because you can't use maths to back up your arguments doesn't mean it holds true for intelligent people.
no, you didn't post where the 15% came from. as i pointed out. i would have understood where you were coming from if your posts weren't as coherent as a woman in a shoe sale. you haven't put any detail in a single post yet.
i haven't ignored anything; most of it simply doesn't make sense so there's no way to respond to it. i tried very hard, but it was full of unsupported claims that came from nowhere and things that were just plain incorrect.
if this is an ignited fire, i want a refund on the firewood. it's not even warm in here. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
37
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 21:27:00 -
[478] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Inspiration wrote:Here some facts with screen dumps so you can comprehend it too! Hulk, dual with dual MLU: http://clip2net.com/s/29RyzEvery 3 minutes, 3 x 1593 m3 = 4779 m3 theoretical peak Mackinaw with tripple MLU: http://clip2net.com/s/29Rz1Every 3 minutes, 2 x 2068 m3 = 4136 m3 theoretical peak Both fits can use 5 T2 mining drones on top of these yields, and given they mine just as fast/good on each ship the percentage difference would be skewed to a smaller number if included. We are just going to compare the strip miner numbers here. 4779 / 4136 = 1.1554 = 15.54% more theoretical output on the strip miners on the hulk in a perfect world. Since all fleet bonuses are just percentages and both ships are affected identical the difference expressed in percentage after bonuses applied, remain the same. The you got where the number comes from! very nice but your 15% was referenced to your idea of changing the yield bonus to a cycle time bonus, not comparing one ship to another. Inspiration wrote:Changing the bonus will accomplish three things: [snip] 2. By having less yield per cycle, but faster cycles, the potential for wasted cycles and the need to micromanage a lot just to come close to theoretical max yield is reduced by 15%.[snip] could you proof read and make sure you're actually being coherent before hitting "post" please?
Oh, that 15%...I been making many posts, mostly about how little reason there is to use a Hulk over the Mackinaw given the advantages of the Mackinaw and the small difference in yield, that is even theoretical. The change I propose is to make the theoretical difference more real.
As for the 15% in this particular context, it is the current yield bonus of 3% multiplied by 5 levels I want to see changed. If you mine 15% less per cycle (in which the loss can occur due to not enough ore in the rock for a full cycle), then the maximum potential loss is reduced by 15% as well. Say there was only one unit of Veldspar and you run a full cycle to get it, but your cycles are faster and have 15% less yield, then your loss is 15% less, assuming your not AFK. The number changes as the percentage of the actual m3 of ore left in relation to the yield per cycle.
If you would have say 64 m3 ore per cycle and a matching cycle time and activation cost, there would be next to zero loss! Again, provided you put the miner to good work after that and are not AFK.
A bit of trying to understand would've have come a long way, don;t you think? Reading it back, i do not even think i worded it wrong actually. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
305
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 21:39:00 -
[479] - Quote
all you do by reducing cycle time is increase crystal consumption, though. it's easier to avoid potential loss with longer cycles as you're more likely to cancel the cycle closer to when you need to cancel it if you're not doing a full cycle. at least, i find it easier to judge when to stop a strip miner than a miner I. faster cycles are only more efficient if you are afk and aren't bothering to manually cancel cycles if a roid is about to pop.
for example, if there was 1 unit of veld left and i had a 3 min cycle and a 1min cycle, the 1 min cycle would finish sooner so i'd have my laser shooting a full asteroid sooner. this change simply benefits afk people and burns through crystals which is already a problem. there's no reason to go against how the entire system is currently built for a needless and almost non existent "bonus" for afkers. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
37
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 21:45:00 -
[480] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Inspiration wrote:Dave stark wrote:it was past tense; reading is as good as your maths i see. when your argument was based around % values that you didn't back up; and still haven't backed up. then yes, it is about maths. you made it that way.
oh please, i do consider the practical applications. however going "i will dock up less in a mackinaw" means nothing unless you know how many times you dock up, how long that will take, etc so you can calculate [woops, more maths again] which ship is truly more viable. for example for short sessions the mackinaw is superior to the hulk, however if you've got an orca that you can use to haul and you're able to stay out in the belt for a couple of hours the hulk becomes the highest yield ship even when solo mining regardless of the mackinaw's logistical bonus.
we're not talking about fights that have random variables such as human responses; it's mining where a rock has x ore and my ship mines y yield. there's no variables to consider that don't have a quantity. some are harder to measure than others; but they are measurable.
anyway; care to contribute to the thread rather than making a fool of yourself? No, there is nothing we can measure about real rock status on the live server. It changes every day and hence the importance to reason in concepts as well as numbers. Most reasoning can be perfectly done without numbers, in fact nearly all reasoning is done without any numbers as all in our life. In the meantime I posted the details where that 15.5% came from, and if you had the will to be constructive, you would have immediately understood where i was coming from. Just like another did when I explained in excruciating detail why the Mackinaw is so much better and the Hulk not really a fleet ship like they intended it to be. You pretty much ignored me at every step of the way, just acting more ignorant after every post. If you trying to make up for that now, fine, but realize you never even tried to understand anything i wrote. This makes you look like you have no idea what you are talking about, and i stand by that. If you cannot take the heat, don't ignite the fire! yes, there is. magical module called a survey scanner. you know exactly how much has respawned. you can measure it. reasoning is not proving. actually, it's not. there's a whole branch of mathematics dedicated to it, it's called statistics. just because you can't use maths to back up your arguments doesn't mean it holds true for intelligent people. no, you didn't post where the 15% came from. as i pointed out. i would have understood where you were coming from if your posts weren't as coherent as a woman in a shoe sale. you haven't put any detail in a single post yet. i haven't ignored anything; most of it simply doesn't make sense so there's no way to respond to it. i tried very hard, but it was full of unsupported claims that came from nowhere and things that were just plain incorrect. if this is an ignited fire, i want a refund on the firewood. it's not even warm in here. anyway, stop posting. this is about new mining barges not your short comings.
You are just insulting here, not the real intelligent person you claim to be in this post. Again you write a lot of nonsense statements and even more blames. Fact is, that you simply did not have any intuition with the numbers, if you understood the concept, the 3*5 would have directly hit you in the context it was provided.
Now you are attempting to shift your own failure at meaningful reading on me being not clear enough for you. Bringing in statistics and survey scanner on top of it is just a distraction to have something of an argument for arguments sake. Point is, you cannot scan every rock out here and build up some reliable statistics, nor can i. There are too many variables involved and time is one of them. All we know for sure from experience is that rocks come not in perfect bites!!! So just keep it out of the discussion, let alone use it to elevate yourself to intelligence godhood or something special and better then me.
Wake up...stop being ignorant, stop pretending your the epic part of humanity in this discussion...you made an error, so pardon me if I take insult to you pinning it on me! |
|
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
305
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 21:49:00 -
[481] - Quote
Inspiration wrote:Dave stark wrote:Inspiration wrote:Dave stark wrote:it was past tense; reading is as good as your maths i see. when your argument was based around % values that you didn't back up; and still haven't backed up. then yes, it is about maths. you made it that way.
oh please, i do consider the practical applications. however going "i will dock up less in a mackinaw" means nothing unless you know how many times you dock up, how long that will take, etc so you can calculate [woops, more maths again] which ship is truly more viable. for example for short sessions the mackinaw is superior to the hulk, however if you've got an orca that you can use to haul and you're able to stay out in the belt for a couple of hours the hulk becomes the highest yield ship even when solo mining regardless of the mackinaw's logistical bonus.
we're not talking about fights that have random variables such as human responses; it's mining where a rock has x ore and my ship mines y yield. there's no variables to consider that don't have a quantity. some are harder to measure than others; but they are measurable.
anyway; care to contribute to the thread rather than making a fool of yourself? No, there is nothing we can measure about real rock status on the live server. It changes every day and hence the importance to reason in concepts as well as numbers. Most reasoning can be perfectly done without numbers, in fact nearly all reasoning is done without any numbers as all in our life. In the meantime I posted the details where that 15.5% came from, and if you had the will to be constructive, you would have immediately understood where i was coming from. Just like another did when I explained in excruciating detail why the Mackinaw is so much better and the Hulk not really a fleet ship like they intended it to be. You pretty much ignored me at every step of the way, just acting more ignorant after every post. If you trying to make up for that now, fine, but realize you never even tried to understand anything i wrote. This makes you look like you have no idea what you are talking about, and i stand by that. If you cannot take the heat, don't ignite the fire! yes, there is. magical module called a survey scanner. you know exactly how much has respawned. you can measure it. reasoning is not proving. actually, it's not. there's a whole branch of mathematics dedicated to it, it's called statistics. just because you can't use maths to back up your arguments doesn't mean it holds true for intelligent people. no, you didn't post where the 15% came from. as i pointed out. i would have understood where you were coming from if your posts weren't as coherent as a woman in a shoe sale. you haven't put any detail in a single post yet. i haven't ignored anything; most of it simply doesn't make sense so there's no way to respond to it. i tried very hard, but it was full of unsupported claims that came from nowhere and things that were just plain incorrect. if this is an ignited fire, i want a refund on the firewood. it's not even warm in here. anyway, stop posting. this is about new mining barges not your short comings. You are just insulting here, not the real intelligent person you claim to be in this post. Again you write a lot of nonsense statements and even more blames. Fact is, that you simply did not have any intuition with the numbers, if you understood the concept, the 3*5 would have directly hit you in the context it was provided. Now you are attempting to shift your own failure at meaningful reading on me being not clear enough for you. Bringing in statistics and survey scanner on top of it is just a distraction to have something of an argument for arguments sake. Point is, you cannot scan every rock out here and build up some reliable statistics, nor can i. There are too many variables involved and time is one of them. All we know for sure from experience is that rocks come not in perfect bites!!! So just keep it out of the discussion, let alone use it to elevate yourself to intelligence godhood or something special and better then me. Wake up...stop being ignorant, stop pretending your the epic part of humanity in this discussion...you made an error, so pardon me if I take insult to you pinning it on me!
you really do have issues reading? you've taken 2 unrelated statements and think i want to do some statistical survey? i give up with you. it's impossible to have a conversation with you when your grasp on the english language is so bad. i tried, honestly. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Noslen Nosilla
Federal Logistics Initiative Conglomerate
8
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 21:58:00 -
[482] - Quote
Girls, Girls, Girls...you're all pretty.
Can we stop the name calling and flaming and disuss this like civilized pilots?
In a typical Hisec mining op with an Orca (with max bonus), 1-2 Itty V haulers, and 4-8 hulks, my corp can pretty much empty a belt in well under an hour, we do assign pilots to specific ore types but each pilot needs a selection of crystals to assist other miners once their assigned ores are harvested.
On an average night I will break 3-6 crystals. My current crystal loadout is 5 Plag, 5 Scord, 6, Veld, 4 Omber (all T2). Having a hauler run over to me to deliver cystals is an issue as it breaks the rhythm of the haulers moving ore from the orca. If we need special crystals (for hisec) like Jaspet, Hemorphite, Kernite (not normally where we mine) they are in the orca.
We don't have a hauler running around the belt gathering from jet cans....thats why the orca has a 74k range tractor (it's actually 84k but the orca only locks out to 74k).
If the hulk has a cargohold of 500k (and the crystals remain the same size 25m3) this makes life simple and mining fun...for some reason we seem to forget that the reason for playing this game is to have fun.
Sure I'd like my hulk to hold 2.5 cycles of ore but it lost that when I re-tanked for permageddon so I'm used to the smaller hold.
For those of you that are saying just use T1 strip miners and you don't need crystals...really? I don't know one person in this game that doesn't want the best modules that he or she can make or buy whether it's prop mods, survey equipment, guns or yes strip miners.
|
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
37
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 22:08:00 -
[483] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:all you do by reducing cycle time is increase crystal consumption, though. it's easier to avoid potential loss with longer cycles as you're more likely to cancel the cycle closer to when you need to cancel it if you're not doing a full cycle. at least, i find it easier to judge when to stop a strip miner than a miner I. faster cycles are only more efficient if you are afk and aren't bothering to manually cancel cycles if a roid is about to pop.
for example, if there was 1 unit of veld left and i had a 3 min cycle and a 1min cycle, the 1 min cycle would finish sooner so i'd have my laser shooting a full asteroid sooner. this change simply benefits afk people and burns through crystals which is already a problem. there's no reason to go against how the entire system is currently built for a needless and almost non existent "bonus" for afkers.
Shorter cycles means you take less loss if you have many things to keep track off. In the extreme example of 64m3 chunks it is clear to see it would be much easier manageable to get near perfection then with a larger cycle. The difference with 15% smaller chunks is less pronounced, but the effect essentially the same.
On the Mackinaw, and certainly the Skiff, monitoring ore left is going to be important to keep good yields. On the current hulk, i sometimes stop a module too early and have to re-scan and re-estimate how long I have to wait to try again. If this happens a few times in a row, yes it does happen, then the capacitor is too low and i cannot activate the miner straight away.
Mostly I try to stay on the side of caution, but it is worth doing, just as it is worth using drones in relax mode. Always give the strip miners priority, they are by far the biggest chunk of the yield.
It is true that it feels easier to control stop-timing a strip miner compared to a miner i, but this is partly an illusion i think. What is fact is that timing the miner I right which has a cycle time a whopping 3 times as short, just means you got to scan 3 times as frequent and make decisions 3 times as frequent. Another fact is that if you do not time at all, the maximum loss you can take is also 3 times as small. I say illusion because, you never know for sure how much you wasted by stopping the strip miner too late. If you do it too late on a miner I, odds are it is less damaging.
Back to barges, and comparing apples to apples.
Yes the crystals will get damaged 15% faster too, hence i posted the plea to increase the hulks cargo hold to 600m3 at the same time. This not only means we are neutral, it also means we can divide more and thus be more versatile in the crystals we bring with us. Even at 15% more damage, T2 crystals will be so worth it most of the time. I am not sure if it still is the case, i stopped bothering, but if a crystal was like 90% damaged you used to be able to refine it for bull and make a fresh one...making crystal costs a mood point (at least for T1 versions). |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
125
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 22:28:00 -
[484] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:Sigras wrote:Jake Rivers wrote:Round and round we go!
We should only have 14 crystals, thats perfect for me, everyone else should be happy with that!
Thanks for the input!
yet it is you who is touting a "we should be able to do whatever we want" policy. Try suggesting that in a PvP forum some time and see how well that goes over Its called game balance, the hulk is now no longer the max yield miner AND the easy mode miner, you have to pick, so as i said before CCP added another interesting choice . . . choose I know, you can never win the argument on the internet with a kid. Try some mining some time and once you figure out how it works, get back to me. As I said to Dave Stark earlier, Ive found that the person who is right usually argues about the topic and the person who is wrong usually attacks the other person's character.
I have Exhumers 5, Capital Industrial Ships 5, Mining Director 5 and hundreds of hours both mining and organizing mining ops.
Im sorry that youre too stupid, too lazy or a combination of both to make the hulk work effectivly as is, but that really isnt my problem, if you want to be lazy do it in a mackinaw. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
125
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 22:41:00 -
[485] - Quote
For everyone who wants more crystals in the hulk, I have to ask. What are you doing with all the ore that youre mining?
Clearly you're not in high sec because you will never have to use more than 4 types of crystals there.
So youre presumably in 0.0 and most likely mining in a grav belt.
What I cant understand is that in a grav belt you can warp in with only one type of crystal and mine WAY more than a hauler's worth of ore, so what are you doing with it? are you leaving it in a series of jetcans by your hulk to come back and pick up later?
What is your method of mining that it would be SUCH a big deal for a hauler to come out and bring you more crystals? how is all that ore getting back to the station in one trip? |
Aurelius Valentius
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
140
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 00:26:00 -
[486] - Quote
Sigras wrote:For everyone who wants more crystals in the hulk, I have to ask. What are you doing with all the ore that youre mining?
Clearly you're not in high sec because you will never have to use more than 4 types of crystals there.
So youre presumably in 0.0 and most likely mining in a grav belt.
What I cant understand is that in a grav belt you can warp in with only one type of crystal and mine WAY more than a hauler's worth of ore, so what are you doing with it? are you leaving it in a series of jetcans by your hulk to come back and pick up later?
What is your method of mining that it would be SUCH a big deal for a hauler to come out and bring you more crystals? how is all that ore getting back to the station in one trip?
I would like 375m3 for 15 ammo in the cargo (would be 5x3sets) and that is all I can think of for the worst situation of rocks in a belt one might want to mine...Veld, Scor, Pyro, Kern, etc.... or missions - which is where this is going to reall come into play...
And as far as ore... throw it overboard in a can as the hulks ore bay is well ... worthless and a can is much bigger... cans until we get something else are just going to be a miners best and worst friend. My PG is too small, my CPU insufficient, my crystals are too big and my cargo too small, I used to be named after a green guy but now it's more like family guy... what am I? |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
82
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 00:52:00 -
[487] - Quote
Sigras wrote:For everyone who wants more crystals in the hulk, I have to ask. What are you doing with all the ore that youre mining?
Clearly you're not in high sec because you will never have to use more than 4 types of crystals there.
So youre presumably in 0.0 and most likely mining in a grav belt.
What I cant understand is that in a grav belt you can warp in with only one type of crystal and mine WAY more than a hauler's worth of ore, so what are you doing with it? are you leaving it in a series of jetcans by your hulk to come back and pick up later?
What is your method of mining that it would be SUCH a big deal for a hauler to come out and bring you more crystals? how is all that ore getting back to the station in one trip?
It is really none of your business how someone mines. You have your method, others will have theirs.
Why should your method be the one we have to use. Senex Legio - Recruiter Team Member |
Unit757
North Point Cannabis Legionis
18
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 01:28:00 -
[488] - Quote
Aurelius Valentius wrote:Sigras wrote:For everyone who wants more crystals in the hulk, I have to ask. What are you doing with all the ore that youre mining?
Clearly you're not in high sec because you will never have to use more than 4 types of crystals there.
So youre presumably in 0.0 and most likely mining in a grav belt.
What I cant understand is that in a grav belt you can warp in with only one type of crystal and mine WAY more than a hauler's worth of ore, so what are you doing with it? are you leaving it in a series of jetcans by your hulk to come back and pick up later?
What is your method of mining that it would be SUCH a big deal for a hauler to come out and bring you more crystals? how is all that ore getting back to the station in one trip? I would like 375m3 for 15 ammo in the cargo (would be 5x3sets) and that is all I can think of for the worst situation of rocks in a belt one might want to mine...Veld, Scor, Pyro, Kern, etc.... or missions - which is where this is going to reall come into play... And as far as ore... throw it overboard in a can as the hulks ore bay is well ... worthless and a can is much bigger... cans until we get something else are just going to be a miners best and worst friend.
That's why you use a Mackinaw? You know, the ship designed for what you obviously want to do? (Solo mine)
Quote: It is really none of your business how someone mines. You have your method, others will have theirs.
Why should your method be the one we have to use.
Because his method works? You can mine whatever way you want, but that doesn't mean its the right way. I could go put blasters on an Armageddon, it could be my method, sure. But it doesn't work.
If you want something changed to a certain way, you need to provide a valid reason why it should be. Responding with "It's none of your business" will not get you anywhere.
Either way, I will wait to see what becomes of the hulks cargo bay, based on the covetors current bay. I will personally not be flying either, but it shall be interesting to see the end result. |
Aurelius Valentius
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
140
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 01:39:00 -
[489] - Quote
Unit757 wrote:Aurelius Valentius wrote:Sigras wrote:For everyone who wants more crystals in the hulk, I have to ask. What are you doing with all the ore that youre mining?
Clearly you're not in high sec because you will never have to use more than 4 types of crystals there.
So youre presumably in 0.0 and most likely mining in a grav belt.
What I cant understand is that in a grav belt you can warp in with only one type of crystal and mine WAY more than a hauler's worth of ore, so what are you doing with it? are you leaving it in a series of jetcans by your hulk to come back and pick up later?
What is your method of mining that it would be SUCH a big deal for a hauler to come out and bring you more crystals? how is all that ore getting back to the station in one trip? I would like 375m3 for 15 ammo in the cargo (would be 5x3sets) and that is all I can think of for the worst situation of rocks in a belt one might want to mine...Veld, Scor, Pyro, Kern, etc.... or missions - which is where this is going to reall come into play... And as far as ore... throw it overboard in a can as the hulks ore bay is well ... worthless and a can is much bigger... cans until we get something else are just going to be a miners best and worst friend. That's why you use a Mackinaw? You know, the ship designed for what you obviously want to do? (Solo mine) Quote: It is really none of your business how someone mines. You have your method, others will have theirs.
Why should your method be the one we have to use.
Because his method works? You can mine whatever way you want, but that doesn't mean its the right way. I could go put blasters on an Armageddon, it could be my method, sure. But it doesn't work. If you want something changed to a certain way, you need to provide a valid reason why it should be. Responding with "It's none of your business" will not get you anywhere. Either way, I will wait to see what becomes of the hulks cargo bay, based on the covetors current bay. I will personally not be flying either, but it shall be interesting to see the end result.
I understand that...what I am saying IS: Make it EITHER 12x or 15x capacity... FINE you do not like the current 14 cap... nerf it down to 12...but it's stupid to carrry... 3x and 3x and 3x and 3x and then 2x... because that is ONE SHORT... get it...stop being dense veld...
My PG is too small, my CPU insufficient, my crystals are too big and my cargo too small, I used to be named after a green guy but now it's more like family guy... what am I?
ORE = DCU II + EHP Stucture = Anti-Ganking Fix and choice = yield or tank. |
Unit757
North Point Cannabis Legionis
18
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 01:44:00 -
[490] - Quote
Aurelius Valentius wrote:Unit757 wrote:Aurelius Valentius wrote:Sigras wrote:For everyone who wants more crystals in the hulk, I have to ask. What are you doing with all the ore that youre mining?
Clearly you're not in high sec because you will never have to use more than 4 types of crystals there.
So youre presumably in 0.0 and most likely mining in a grav belt.
What I cant understand is that in a grav belt you can warp in with only one type of crystal and mine WAY more than a hauler's worth of ore, so what are you doing with it? are you leaving it in a series of jetcans by your hulk to come back and pick up later?
What is your method of mining that it would be SUCH a big deal for a hauler to come out and bring you more crystals? how is all that ore getting back to the station in one trip? I would like 375m3 for 15 ammo in the cargo (would be 5x3sets) and that is all I can think of for the worst situation of rocks in a belt one might want to mine...Veld, Scor, Pyro, Kern, etc.... or missions - which is where this is going to reall come into play... And as far as ore... throw it overboard in a can as the hulks ore bay is well ... worthless and a can is much bigger... cans until we get something else are just going to be a miners best and worst friend. That's why you use a Mackinaw? You know, the ship designed for what you obviously want to do? (Solo mine) Quote: It is really none of your business how someone mines. You have your method, others will have theirs.
Why should your method be the one we have to use.
Because his method works? You can mine whatever way you want, but that doesn't mean its the right way. I could go put blasters on an Armageddon, it could be my method, sure. But it doesn't work. If you want something changed to a certain way, you need to provide a valid reason why it should be. Responding with "It's none of your business" will not get you anywhere. Either way, I will wait to see what becomes of the hulks cargo bay, based on the covetors current bay. I will personally not be flying either, but it shall be interesting to see the end result. I understand that...what I am saying IS: Make it EITHER 12x or 15x capacity... FINE you do not like the current 14 cap... nerf it down to 12...but it's stupid to carrry... 3x and 3x and 3x and 3x and then 2x... because that is ONE SHORT... get it...stop being dense veld...
If you had read one of my previous comments, I have already said im not going on about the hulks hold, because the covetor is still 500, so the hulk might go up again, so you stop with your sad attempt at an insult.
Again, I will repeat myself. You obviously want to mine solo, based on what you've said. You should be in the Mackinaw, which can actually hold 7 sets of crystals, and has a cargo hold bigger then a jet can, so you shouldn't have a problem, right?
Edit - the bottom half of that reply you quoted wasn't directed at you, if that was what your replying to. The Mackinaw part was. |
|
Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
69
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 04:40:00 -
[491] - Quote
Mackinaw has super small capacitor. Only 500 units, really ?
I suggest you increase it to 1000. It is a cruiser sized vessel anyway so it should have more than 500. Either increase capacitor or decrease capacitor use for miners even more.
|
Stefan1978
Buddel und Schuerf - Mining Corp
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 06:30:00 -
[492] - Quote
New-¦s from Sisi: Crystals now 25 m-¦ instead of 50m-¦
Sounds Ok? Better than nothing. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
305
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 07:09:00 -
[493] - Quote
Stefan1978 wrote:New-¦s from Sisi: Crystals now 25 m-¦ instead of 50m-¦
Sounds Ok? Better than nothing.
old news and doesn't solve the issue since the cargo has been reduced on the hulk. at least read the thread before posting? Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Aurelius Valentius
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
140
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 07:15:00 -
[494] - Quote
Look moron, I don't want to mine solo. unplug the shyt from your ears re-read what I said...
quit being a dumbass and trolling, do you understand math or are you a US failure with number theory?
What is 3 x 5 = 15.. not 17, not 3, not head-up-the-backside...it's 15... how many sets is 5 sets of crystals for a hulk or cov armed with 3x strip miners? is it 14? ...no it's ******* 15... what is three less than that? 12? would it be 3x4 or 4 sets of crystals = 12 total? and how much is that if they are 25m3 each?
I do not want to solo mine, I am not saying gimmie 1000 rounds of crystals... I am talking simply changes of sets -COMPLETE sets of 3...god ******* idiots around here. My PG is too small, my CPU insufficient, my crystals are too big and my cargo too small, I used to be named after a green guy but now it's more like family guy... what am I?
ORE = DCU II + EHP Stucture = Anti-Ganking Fix and choice = yield or tank. |
Aetatis
Marquie-X Corp Ewoks
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 09:52:00 -
[495] - Quote
and after that change many of you will cry because there is no place left do carry a simple bookmark with you for maintaining a can or whatever (or a script or think of something else) - even no place to change the crystals, to change one u will need at least enough cargo for ONE, better more to carry somethin else with u (if i remember correctly) now tell me whats your problem with 14? |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
82
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 14:35:00 -
[496] - Quote
My mining method is for max output, and I am not going to fit T1 strip miners, or use an inferior vessel just because the crystal size is silly and you think that is a great solution.
The hulks roll is for a support fleet I am fine with that, my fleets support the hulk role just fine.
I do not believe someone in that support fleet should be required to be crystal gopher, that really would be a waste of ones time.
If there is a large group of people out mining, crystal selection is even more important, as target rock choices will keep changing as people mine away. The world is not perfect, so assigning particular rocks to everyone is not a solution to poor crystal selection.
So when I am mining I should not have to worry about the pitiful selection of crystals in my cargohold. I want to bust rocks, and do so at the current levels I enjoy without going insane every time a crystal breaks and there are no spares on hand.
Resources are limited in null sec and most will burn the crystals to the end, so using new crystals every op is not an option. In any case, having to load a crystal up and check show info just to see what condition it is in is also not practical.
What did you mine in the last 4 nights? I actually have an opinion as I do mine on occasion, I cleaned out a large grav and other assorted sites. I am sure all you '3 sets of crystal people is just fine' have not even undocked in a mining vessel, or if you actually do mine either your output is horrible or you are just a cherry picker miner. Senex Legio - Recruiter Team Member
CCP reduce the mining crystal to 1m3, or give me a good reason why they have to be so large. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
129
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 15:11:00 -
[497] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:My mining method is for max output, and I am not going to fit T1 strip miners, or use an inferior vessel just because the crystal size is silly and you think that is a great solution.
The hulks roll is for a support fleet I am fine with that, my fleets support the hulk role just fine.
I do not believe someone in that support fleet should be required to be crystal gopher, that really would be a waste of ones time.
If there is a large group of people out mining, crystal selection is even more important, as target rock choices will keep changing as people mine away. The world is not perfect, so assigning particular rocks to everyone is not a solution to poor crystal selection.
So when I am mining I should not have to worry about the pitiful selection of crystals in my cargohold. I want to bust rocks, and do so at the current levels I enjoy without going insane every time a crystal breaks and there are no spares on hand.
Resources are limited in null sec and most will burn the crystals to the end, so using new crystals every op is not an option. In any case, having to load a crystal up and check show info just to see what condition it is in is also not practical.
What did you mine in the last 4 nights? I actually have an opinion as I do mine on occasion, I cleaned out a large grav and other assorted sites. I am sure all you '3 sets of crystal people is just fine' have not even undocked in a mining vessel, or if you actually do mine either your output is horrible or you are just a cherry picker miner. no, we're just smart enough to use logistics to BRING US THE RIGHT CRYSTALS WHEN WE NEED THEM.
You realize that the crystals last for 6 hours right?
Therefore the only limiting factor is the amount of asteroids with the 5 different types of ore as you have crystals.
This means that you either: 1. Mine a whole ton then do multiple hauler runs (you can still do this, just mine out 5 types, do some hauling, then mine out 5 more types) 2. Mine a whole ton and have someone else haul it for you (just have them bring you more crystals) 3. Mine in an actual belt where there is less than a full hauler runs worth of minerals in 5 ores (this is fail because nobody mines in actual belts in 0.0 any more) 4. Mine and haul it in your hulk (youre making way more trips than you need to anyway, just get more crystals when you need them) 5. Mine and dont haul it (youre not making any isk anyway)
Im sorry that fleet mining is now going to take come thought and organization, but its a change thats long overdue.
Remember this game rewards you for thinking about what you do before you do it, and thats the way uh huh uh huh I like it. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1738
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 15:18:00 -
[498] - Quote
Unit757 wrote:ITT - lazy miners want max yield/easy mode hulk.
I will repeat myself again, the vast majority of PVP ships CANNOT carry every single type of ammo they have avalible to them, with the exception of amarr ships.
The vast majority of PvP ships can shoot back, perform their job at higher transversal, don't need to perma-sit at a globally visible location AND they can fine tune their offense vs defense.
Once your PvP ship is reduced to two low slots and inane CPU for you to "choose" what fitting to use and you are forced to sit in a globally warpable location for hours, then you can draw comparisons.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1738
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 15:22:00 -
[499] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:
what do you mean made worse, you just hit f1 and wait for the asteroid to pop. there's really nothing to micromanage.
Have you EVER used a mining ship in your life?
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1738
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 15:27:00 -
[500] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:considering i'm one of the 3 people who in this thread worked out the new ice mining yields... try again
my point; if you missed it, which i'm sure you did... is that when i present a number i back it up with calculations rather than just making it appear out of thin air.
Theorycrafters are worse than practitioneers. The latter live day by day the horrible garbage the former "calculated" without knowing the practical consequences.
Just the fact you say that you wait for a roid to pop completely disqualifies you from being anything from a totally unshaved miner. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1738
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 15:37:00 -
[501] - Quote
Noslen Nosilla wrote:For those of you that are saying just use T1 strip miners and you don't need crystals...really? I don't know one person in this game that doesn't want the best modules that he or she can make or buy whether it's prop mods, survey equipment, guns or yes strip miners.
It also makes no sense that the supposed best yield ship in game has to downgrade to T1 strip miners and become worse than others.... Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1738
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 15:46:00 -
[502] - Quote
Sigras wrote:For everyone who wants more crystals in the hulk, I have to ask. What are you doing with all the ore that youre mining?
Clearly you're not in high sec because you will never have to use more than 4 types of crystals there.
So youre presumably in 0.0 and most likely mining in a grav belt.
I am clearly in hi sec and do large grav sites and partly avoid Hulkageddon.
No, I am not using Macks but 4 Hulks or 3 Hulks + Orca and no I don't keep any of them close (including close to the Orca) because they just warp in and smart bomb. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
82
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 15:53:00 -
[503] - Quote
I noticed they added crystal damage on mouse over, but if you unload the damaged crystal and reload it, it shows as undamaged, untill a new cycle ends. Senex Legio - Recruiter Team Member
CCP reduce the mining crystal to 1m3, or give me a good reason why they have to be so large. |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
82
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 15:56:00 -
[504] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Jake Rivers wrote:My mining method is for max output, and I am not going to fit T1 strip miners, or use an inferior vessel just because the crystal size is silly and you think that is a great solution.
The hulks roll is for a support fleet I am fine with that, my fleets support the hulk role just fine.
I do not believe someone in that support fleet should be required to be crystal gopher, that really would be a waste of ones time.
If there is a large group of people out mining, crystal selection is even more important, as target rock choices will keep changing as people mine away. The world is not perfect, so assigning particular rocks to everyone is not a solution to poor crystal selection.
So when I am mining I should not have to worry about the pitiful selection of crystals in my cargohold. I want to bust rocks, and do so at the current levels I enjoy without going insane every time a crystal breaks and there are no spares on hand.
Resources are limited in null sec and most will burn the crystals to the end, so using new crystals every op is not an option. In any case, having to load a crystal up and check show info just to see what condition it is in is also not practical.
What did you mine in the last 4 nights? I actually have an opinion as I do mine on occasion, I cleaned out a large grav and other assorted sites. I am sure all you '3 sets of crystal people is just fine' have not even undocked in a mining vessel, or if you actually do mine either your output is horrible or you are just a cherry picker miner. no, we're just smart enough to use logistics to BRING US THE RIGHT CRYSTALS WHEN WE NEED THEM. You realize that the crystals last for 6 hours right? Therefore the only limiting factor is the amount of asteroids with the 5 different types of ore as you have crystals. This means that you either: 1. Mine a whole ton then do multiple hauler runs (you can still do this, just mine out 5 types, do some hauling, then mine out 5 more types) 2. Mine a whole ton and have someone else haul it for you (just have them bring you more crystals) 3. Mine in an actual belt where there is less than a full hauler runs worth of minerals in 5 ores (this is fail because nobody mines in actual belts in 0.0 any more) 4. Mine and haul it in your hulk (youre making way more trips than you need to anyway, just get more crystals when you need them) 5. Mine and dont haul it (youre not making any isk anyway) Im sorry that fleet mining is now going to take come thought and organization, but its a change thats long overdue. Remember this game rewards you for thinking about what you do before you do it, and thats the way uh huh uh huh I like it.
There is no role for someone to just sit around handing out crystals. Do you bring a hauler around to keep everyone loaded up on ammo when on a roam? No, there is no need for that, as you can bring enough ammo for the purpose. Senex Legio - Recruiter Team Member
CCP reduce the mining crystal to 1m3, or give me a good reason why they have to be so large. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1738
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 16:10:00 -
[505] - Quote
As for mineral compression concerns, just make the crystals un-reprocessable. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
82
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 16:13:00 -
[506] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:As for mineral compression concerns, just make the crystals un-reprocessable.
Is that the reason for the size? I can't imagine building T2 crystals for just compression purposes, but it could be a valid reason, and a good solution to the problem.
Senex Legio - Recruiter Team Member
CCP reduce the mining crystal to 1m3, or give me a good reason why they have to be so large. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
308
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 16:35:00 -
[507] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Dave stark wrote:
what do you mean made worse, you just hit f1 and wait for the asteroid to pop. there's really nothing to micromanage.
Have you EVER used a mining ship in your life?
on a daily basis. there's a difference between having to micromanage things and mining efficiently. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1738
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 16:37:00 -
[508] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Dave stark wrote:
what do you mean made worse, you just hit f1 and wait for the asteroid to pop. there's really nothing to micromanage.
Have you EVER used a mining ship in your life? on a daily basis. there's a difference between having to micromanage things and mining efficiently.
So, when you get a roid with 50m3 left do you really let the cycle finish and roid pop before you start a new one? Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
308
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 16:40:00 -
[509] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Dave stark wrote:considering i'm one of the 3 people who in this thread worked out the new ice mining yields... try again
my point; if you missed it, which i'm sure you did... is that when i present a number i back it up with calculations rather than just making it appear out of thin air. Theorycrafters are worse than practitioneers. The latter live day by day the horrible garbage the former "calculated" without knowing the practical consequences.
it's mining ice... it's not like an ice roid will pop before you finish a cycle, it's not like you have to cut cycles short, ice mining is subject to less disruption than any other activity i can think of other than ship spinning.
if we were talking about jetcan mining mercoxit in hostile 0.0 space you might have a point. however as far as ice goes you can literally it f1, f2, and walk away for 30 mins and come back to a full mackinaw with very little chance that some one has bumped you out of range of the ice roid. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
308
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 16:41:00 -
[510] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Dave stark wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Dave stark wrote:
what do you mean made worse, you just hit f1 and wait for the asteroid to pop. there's really nothing to micromanage.
Have you EVER used a mining ship in your life? on a daily basis. there's a difference between having to micromanage things and mining efficiently. So, when you get a roid with 50m3 left do you really let the cycle finish and roid pop before you start a new one?
that depends if i know if it's got 50m3 left in it, i don't always have a survey scanner on my ship.
and because i'm somewhat ocd i'd rather leave the 50m3 and start on a new roid to keep my lasers cycling at the same time. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
|
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
82
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 16:45:00 -
[511] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Dave stark wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Dave stark wrote:
what do you mean made worse, you just hit f1 and wait for the asteroid to pop. there's really nothing to micromanage.
Have you EVER used a mining ship in your life? on a daily basis. there's a difference between having to micromanage things and mining efficiently. So, when you get a roid with 50m3 left do you really let the cycle finish and roid pop before you start a new one? that depends if i know if it's got 50m3 left in it, i don't always have a survey scanner on my ship. and because i'm somewhat ocd i'd rather leave the 50m3 and start on a new roid to keep my lasers cycling at the same time.
If I notice a rock coming to an end I wait till I figure the cycle has the last of it and put them onto a new one, or just put drones on the rock to finish it. Senex Legio - Recruiter Team Member
CCP reduce the mining crystal to 1m3, or give me a good reason why they have to be so large. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
308
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 17:26:00 -
[512] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Noslen Nosilla wrote:For those of you that are saying just use T1 strip miners and you don't need crystals...really? I don't know one person in this game that doesn't want the best modules that he or she can make or buy whether it's prop mods, survey equipment, guns or yes strip miners. It also makes no sense that the supposed best yield ship in game has to downgrade to T1 strip miners and become worse than others....
actually with the changes that have just been posted in the 90 page thread in general discussion even a t1 strip hulk will outmine anything packing t2 crystals.
this is a good change, now it means we A) can save on crystals without sacrificing yield or having to use another ship and B) can absolutely **** asteroids when we do bother with t2 strips and have the support to reload them. i also think this bonus in yield can justify the extra logistics now.
a bit of context on that; a fully bonused maxed yield hulk with a 5% yield implant is pulling in just over 6k/cycle. [assuming i haven't done some thing dumb like hit the wrong excel cell again] Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1739
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 17:34:00 -
[513] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:
it's mining ice... it's not like an ice roid will pop before you finish a cycle, it's not like you have to cut cycles short, ice mining is subject to less disruption than any other activity i can think of other than ship spinning.
if we were talking about jetcan mining mercoxit in hostile 0.0 space you might have a point. however as far as ice goes you can literally it f1, f2, and walk away for 30 mins and come back to a full mackinaw with very little chance that some one has bumped you out of range of the ice roid.
Ice miners bumping full fledged operation including IPO
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
308
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 17:36:00 -
[514] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Dave stark wrote:
it's mining ice... it's not like an ice roid will pop before you finish a cycle, it's not like you have to cut cycles short, ice mining is subject to less disruption than any other activity i can think of other than ship spinning.
if we were talking about jetcan mining mercoxit in hostile 0.0 space you might have a point. however as far as ice goes you can literally it f1, f2, and walk away for 30 mins and come back to a full mackinaw with very little chance that some one has bumped you out of range of the ice roid.
Ice miners bumping full fledged operation including IPO
they can't be everywhere at once, and not everywhere is empire space :) Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
189
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 20:09:00 -
[515] - Quote
I can live with (and actually like) all the proposed mining ship changes except one: Mackinaw :: max targets = 4. This was fine when it was a dedicated ice miner.
Now, it's feels like a handicap in actual usage tests I have been doing on SiSi.
Can you please adjust the Mack so "max targets = 5" ? (6 would better.) |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
310
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 20:11:00 -
[516] - Quote
Urgg Boolean wrote:I can live with (and actually like) all the proposed mining ship changes except one: Mackinaw :: max targets = 4. This was fine when it was a dedicated ice miner.
Now, it's feels like a handicap in actual usage tests I have been doing on SiSi.
Can you please adjust the Mack so "max targets = 5" ? (6 would better.)
max targets is double what it can shoot at; same as the hulk in that regard. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1741
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 20:13:00 -
[517] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Urgg Boolean wrote:I can live with (and actually like) all the proposed mining ship changes except one: Mackinaw :: max targets = 4. This was fine when it was a dedicated ice miner.
Now, it's feels like a handicap in actual usage tests I have been doing on SiSi.
Can you please adjust the Mack so "max targets = 5" ? (6 would better.) max targets is double what it can shoot at; same as the hulk in that regard.
So those with 1 laser will only be able to target 2 roids? It's really annoying and wasted time inducing. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
310
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 20:19:00 -
[518] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Dave stark wrote:Urgg Boolean wrote:I can live with (and actually like) all the proposed mining ship changes except one: Mackinaw :: max targets = 4. This was fine when it was a dedicated ice miner.
Now, it's feels like a handicap in actual usage tests I have been doing on SiSi.
Can you please adjust the Mack so "max targets = 5" ? (6 would better.) max targets is double what it can shoot at; same as the hulk in that regard. So those with 1 laser will only be able to target 2 roids? It's really annoying and wasted time inducing.
i didn't say it wasn't annoying. i was just saying it was consistent. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Herr Hammer Draken
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
54
|
Posted - 2012.07.30 05:34:00 -
[519] - Quote
Unit757 wrote:ITT - lazy miners want max yield/easy mode hulk. I will repeat myself again, the vast majority of PVP ships CANNOT carry every single type of ammo they have avalible to them, with the exception of amarr ships. Quit you b-tching. Your just making yourselves look like idiots. CCP is giving you (and me, I guess, because I'll probably mine on the side when drunk), a god damn mining ship that can tank better then the vast majority of Heavy cruisers and battlecruisers I have ever flown! AND you still want more? Accept it, the hulk IS NOT suited for what you all want to do, use the one that is. And on top of all this, I hope to god that everyone here who is asking for more crystal space is deep in null-sec. Because if your in high sec, I hope the sentry guns malfunction and pop you on the undock, because you only have 4 ore types in HS, and each ship can hold enough for that. Quote:Please change the Hulks Exhumer 3% ore yield bonus into a 3% reduced cycle time and capacitor use (like how it works with ice mining). Without this change for many detailed reasons, using the Hulk over a Mackinaw does not make a whole lot of sense.
Yes that includes its described role too! You have orca bonuses for that, use it. Hulks bonuses are fine.
In response to this, it needs to be said that miners have to train skills to level 4 to use t2 mining crystals. Each type of ore has its own skill which has to be trained to level 4 in order to use the coresponding t2 crystal. Do combat ships have to train a weapons skill to level 4 for each amo type? NO. The barrier to entry in warpships is the cargo bay size. The barrier to entry for mining crystals is the time required to train each skill to level 4. Time NOT spent training war ship skills. That is even more important in the grand scheme of things. In order to do A well means not doing B well for a long period of time.
|
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
135
|
Posted - 2012.07.30 06:04:00 -
[520] - Quote
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:It needs to be said that miners have to train skills to level 4 to use t2 mining crystals. Each type of ore has its own skill which has to be trained to level 4 in order to use the coresponding t2 crystal. Do combat ships have to train a weapons skill to level 4 for each amo type? NO. The barrier to entry in warpships is the cargo bay size. The barrier to entry for mining crystals is the time required to train each skill to level 4. Time NOT spent training war ship skills. That is even more important in the grand scheme of things. In order to do A well means not doing B well for a long period of time. This is a false equivlancy, once you train all of the ore processing types to level 4 you can effectivly use every tool to mine rocks in the game.
In order to use every tool to shoot people in the game you have to put WAY more SP into it.
Would you like me to show you the math? |
|
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
314
|
Posted - 2012.07.30 06:41:00 -
[521] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Herr Hammer Draken wrote:It needs to be said that miners have to train skills to level 4 to use t2 mining crystals. Each type of ore has its own skill which has to be trained to level 4 in order to use the coresponding t2 crystal. Do combat ships have to train a weapons skill to level 4 for each amo type? NO. The barrier to entry in warpships is the cargo bay size. The barrier to entry for mining crystals is the time required to train each skill to level 4. Time NOT spent training war ship skills. That is even more important in the grand scheme of things. In order to do A well means not doing B well for a long period of time. This is a false equivlancy, once you train all of the ore processing types to level 4 you can effectivly use every tool to mine rocks in the game. In order to use every tool to shoot people in the game you have to put WAY more SP into it. Would you like me to show you the math?
i actually agree with this. we might have more crystals than there are types of ammo for a given weapon, however there is a much wider array of weapons than there are mining modules. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Herr Hammer Draken
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
55
|
Posted - 2012.07.30 10:22:00 -
[522] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Herr Hammer Draken wrote:It needs to be said that miners have to train skills to level 4 to use t2 mining crystals. Each type of ore has its own skill which has to be trained to level 4 in order to use the coresponding t2 crystal. Do combat ships have to train a weapons skill to level 4 for each amo type? NO. The barrier to entry in warpships is the cargo bay size. The barrier to entry for mining crystals is the time required to train each skill to level 4. Time NOT spent training war ship skills. That is even more important in the grand scheme of things. In order to do A well means not doing B well for a long period of time. This is a false equivlancy, once you train all of the ore processing types to level 4 you can effectivly use every tool to mine rocks in the game. In order to use every tool to shoot people in the game you have to put WAY more SP into it. Would you like me to show you the math?
But one never uses every tool to shoot someone in the game. At most you use maybe 3 tools, a gun type, a missle type and smart bomb on the same ship. And mining ships are classified as medium sized ships same as cruisers in size class. Drones do not count as miners use them as well so both have to train drones. |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
82
|
Posted - 2012.07.30 13:03:00 -
[523] - Quote
I tried the small selection of crystals again last night, it is really going to suck if these things do not get downsized. Senex Legio - Recruiter Team Member
CCP reduce the mining crystal to 1m3, or give me a good reason why they have to be so large. |
Royaldo
Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk Amarr branch. Sev3rance
49
|
Posted - 2012.07.30 13:15:00 -
[524] - Quote
so im getting 69 ice pr hour on mackinaw og 72 og hulk. this is without the ice harvester duration rigs, which im sure will stack with the upgrades meaing on the hulk you wont get more. which means hulk stay the same but mackinaw will be slightly better. but its still a nerf compared to the 84 pr hour atm on tq. |
Unit757
North Point Cannabis Legionis
22
|
Posted - 2012.07.30 13:37:00 -
[525] - Quote
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:Sigras wrote:Herr Hammer Draken wrote:It needs to be said that miners have to train skills to level 4 to use t2 mining crystals. Each type of ore has its own skill which has to be trained to level 4 in order to use the coresponding t2 crystal. Do combat ships have to train a weapons skill to level 4 for each amo type? NO. The barrier to entry in warpships is the cargo bay size. The barrier to entry for mining crystals is the time required to train each skill to level 4. Time NOT spent training war ship skills. That is even more important in the grand scheme of things. In order to do A well means not doing B well for a long period of time. This is a false equivlancy, once you train all of the ore processing types to level 4 you can effectivly use every tool to mine rocks in the game. In order to use every tool to shoot people in the game you have to put WAY more SP into it. Would you like me to show you the math? But one never uses every tool to shoot someone in the game. At most you use maybe 3 tools, a gun type, a missle type and smart bomb on the same ship. And mining ships are classified as medium sized ships same as cruisers in size class. Drones do not count as miners use them as well so both have to train drones.
You clearly don't understand how a combat ship works, do you?
Edit - oh, and just training just one type of medium weapon takes probably longer then it does for you to train all yourcprocessimg skills to 4. We have to train most of our skills to 5 to use t2 ;) |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
1100
|
Posted - 2012.07.30 13:45:00 -
[526] - Quote
Noslen Nosilla wrote:So the cargohold on all mining barges is 350m3 except the Covetor which still has the 500m3 cargohold. all the exhumers have a 350m3 cargohold now. T1 Crystals 15m3 now T2 Crystals 25m3 now You still can't fit more than 13 T2 crystals in the Hulk cargohold because you have to have the empty space of one crystal to change a crystal out. Hmmm.
Barges/Exhumers should have 350 x # of turrets as their cargo bay. It makes the most sense and puts the ships on an even footing.
A lot of hi-sec hulks currently carry 35 T2 crystals, plus 15 T1 crystals, which was about 1800 m3 of space. With the smaller new T2 crystals, that means a 3-strip hulk needs about 950 m3 in cargo/crystal storage.
Not to mention that if you like to be organized, you were carrying your crystals in small/medium standard containers. One per type. So there needs to be enough space on the Hulk to carry (4) or (5) medium containers plus enough room to swap out a crystal. Because the auto-reload function on the strip miner had a very bad habit of grabbing a brand new crystal to use, when you already had a partially used crystal available in the cargo hold.
If you had (5) medium containers, you were using up 1625 m3 of space to carry (3) used and (4) new crystals per ore type.
So yes, the Hulk still needs to end up at around 1400-1500 m3 of cargo space. Or cut the T1 crystal size to 10 m3 and cut the T2 crystal size to 20 m3. |
Noslen Nosilla
Federal Logistics Initiative Conglomerate
10
|
Posted - 2012.07.30 14:06:00 -
[527] - Quote
OK just got off SISI @ 2012.07.27 14:05...new build......NO CHANGES TO THE MINING SHIPS.
Let the flames begin. |
Charlie Jacobson
23
|
Posted - 2012.07.30 14:07:00 -
[528] - Quote
I couldn't find the new mining frigate on the test server. Are they keeping it a surprise until the patch goes live? |
Noslen Nosilla
Federal Logistics Initiative Conglomerate
10
|
Posted - 2012.07.30 14:09:00 -
[529] - Quote
Charlie Jacobson wrote:I couldn't find the new mining frigate on the test server. Are they keeping it a surprise until the patch goes live?
the new mining frigate is a fall/winter release...when CCP does the rebalance to the racial "mining" frigates. |
Charlie Jacobson
23
|
Posted - 2012.07.30 14:15:00 -
[530] - Quote
Noslen Nosilla wrote:Charlie Jacobson wrote:I couldn't find the new mining frigate on the test server. Are they keeping it a surprise until the patch goes live? the new mining frigate is a fall/winter release...when CCP does the rebalance to the racial "mining" frigates.
D'oh! Okay, thanks. I must've misunderstood the announcements :( |
|
ugh zug
24
|
Posted - 2012.07.30 20:47:00 -
[531] - Quote
CCP, while you're at the overhaul of the mining ships please consider making adjustments to the orca. a team of mining ships would have no problem filling the current orcas storage in no time at all, and if you don't have a hauler it makes for a very annoying interruption of mining bonuses.
consider reducing the cargo, and corp storage bays, and increasing the ore hold significantly.
consider allowing input to the ore hold from fleet members.
an extra high slot for a salvager, or probe launcher.
orca/roq defenses could use some buffs to go inline with the changes to the other mining vessels. Want me to shut up?-á Send me ISK and i'll stop giving suggestions to CCP that make sense. Remove content from my post, 15 bil Remove my content from a thread I have started 30bil. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1755
|
Posted - 2012.07.30 21:06:00 -
[532] - Quote
ugh zug wrote:CCP, while you're at the overhaul of the mining ships please consider making adjustments to the orca. a team of mining ships would have no problem filling the current orcas storage in no time at all, and if you don't have a hauler it makes for a very annoying interruption of mining bonuses.
consider reducing the cargo, and corp storage bays, and increasing the ore hold significantly.
consider allowing input to the ore hold from fleet members.
an extra high slot for a salvager, or probe launcher.
orca/roq defenses could use some buffs to go inline with the changes to the other mining vessels.
Reduce the corp hold ONLY and ONLY IF the ore cargo becomes shared.
I already almost fill the full corp hold in one shot as is, if they reduce it I won't even be able to stuff all the minerals that come from the ships before I dragged it to the ore hold.
As for Orca defenses, they are not so bad, they only suck if you go full mega expand. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
86
|
Posted - 2012.07.30 23:14:00 -
[533] - Quote
Seems like the bonus's are broken for the rorq on sisi. Senex Legio - Recruiter Team Member
CCP reduce the mining crystal to 1m3, or give me a good reason why they have to be so large. |
Aurelius Valentius
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
142
|
Posted - 2012.07.31 00:29:00 -
[534] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:CCP reduce the mining crystal to 1m3, or give me a good reason why they have to be so large.
Reason 1. Just because.
Reason 2. Because you would be happy, happiness makes CCP unhappy, therefore they decide to make you unhappy to be happy.
Reason 3. Why not?
Reason 4. Because logic and geometry are the foundations of western culture and being Icelandic, Thor didn't allow for them to be that size.
Reason 5. PONIES!!!
Reason 6. It would make sense to have them be smaller, but that leads to the counter result of Reason 2 and so cannot be allowed under any circumstances.
Reason 7. The British East India Company says so.
Reason 8. MORE PONIES!!!!
Reason 9. See Reasons 1-8.
Reason 10. LINK My PG is too small, my CPU insufficient, my crystals are too big and my cargo too small, I used to be named after a green guy but now it's more like family guy... what am I?
ORE = DCU II + EHP Stucture = Anti-Ganking Fix and choice = yield or tank. |
Herr Hammer Draken
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
57
|
Posted - 2012.07.31 06:29:00 -
[535] - Quote
Unit757 wrote:Herr Hammer Draken wrote:Sigras wrote:Herr Hammer Draken wrote:It needs to be said that miners have to train skills to level 4 to use t2 mining crystals. Each type of ore has its own skill which has to be trained to level 4 in order to use the coresponding t2 crystal. Do combat ships have to train a weapons skill to level 4 for each amo type? NO. The barrier to entry in warpships is the cargo bay size. The barrier to entry for mining crystals is the time required to train each skill to level 4. Time NOT spent training war ship skills. That is even more important in the grand scheme of things. In order to do A well means not doing B well for a long period of time. This is a false equivlancy, once you train all of the ore processing types to level 4 you can effectivly use every tool to mine rocks in the game. In order to use every tool to shoot people in the game you have to put WAY more SP into it. Would you like me to show you the math? But one never uses every tool to shoot someone in the game. At most you use maybe 3 tools, a gun type, a missle type and smart bomb on the same ship. And mining ships are classified as medium sized ships same as cruisers in size class. Drones do not count as miners use them as well so both have to train drones. You clearly don't understand how a combat ship works, do you? Edit - oh, and just training just one type of medium weapon takes probably longer then it does for you to train all yourcprocessimg skills to 4. We have to train most of our skills to 5 to use t2 ;)
I have been training both side by side after doing both I can say for sure there are quite a bit more skills involved and longer time durations for mining than there are for weapons. My weapon skills are way ahead of my mining skills and I alternate between them. One for weapons one for mining. Back and forth since day one. I can mount T2 weapons on my cruisers, But I can not mount any mining crystals yet. I just now am able to use T2 strips. I have 72 more skill levels to train to be able to mount all of the mining crystals. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
135
|
Posted - 2012.07.31 07:56:00 -
[536] - Quote
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:Unit757 wrote:
Edit - oh, and just training just one type of medium weapon takes probably longer then it does for you to train all yourcprocessimg skills to 4. We have to train most of our skills to 5 to use t2 ;)
I have been training both side by side after doing both I can say for sure there are quite a bit more skills involved and longer time durations for mining than there are for weapons. My weapon skills are way ahead of my mining skills and I alternate between them. One for weapons one for mining. Back and forth since day one. I can mount T2 weapons on my cruisers, But I can not mount any mining crystals yet. I just now am able to use T2 strips. I have 72 more skill levels to train to be able to mount all of the mining crystals. Im going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume youre entirely perception/willpower specced otherwise you're doing it wrong.
To fit T2 strips, all it requires is mining 5 which is a rank 1 skill; if you compare all of the ores below kernite with small guns, kernite to spodumain to medium guns and ABC ores with large guns, you come out with 13 days 22 hours for all of the "small gun" ores (Veldspar to Omber) 17 days 22 hours more for all of the "medium gun" ores (Kernite to Spodumain) 22 days 5 hours more for all of the "large gun" ores (ABC) 32 days 9 hours more for all of the support skills to 5 (mining upgrades and Astrogeology)
Do you really want me to compare these numbers to training all of the gun skills?
|
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
321
|
Posted - 2012.07.31 07:58:00 -
[537] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Do you really want me to compare these numbers to training all of the gun skills?
at a glance that looks like an equal training time for one type of large weapon without any support skills... Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
135
|
Posted - 2012.07.31 08:11:00 -
[538] - Quote
just about, actually slightly shorter for mining, but remember, once you train all of the mining crystals, you can use all of the crystals in the game. Once you train projectiles, you can use 1/3 of the guns in the game |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
321
|
Posted - 2012.07.31 08:13:00 -
[539] - Quote
Sigras wrote:just about, actually slightly shorter for mining, but remember, once you train all of the mining crystals, you can use all of the crystals in the game. Once you train projectiles, you can use 1/3 of the guns in the game
and not very well without decent support skills, although i guess we could equate those support skills to astrogeology, although that's one skill vs many. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Noslen Nosilla
Federal Logistics Initiative Conglomerate
10
|
Posted - 2012.07.31 11:07:00 -
[540] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Sigras wrote:just about, actually slightly shorter for mining, but remember, once you train all of the mining crystals, you can use all of the crystals in the game. Once you train projectiles, you can use 1/3 of the guns in the game and not very well without decent support skills, although i guess we could equate those support skills to astrogeology, although that's one skill vs many.
Basically we could say then that you have trained up to use the Strip Miner class of Gun. |
|
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
332
|
Posted - 2012.07.31 12:47:00 -
[541] - Quote
as of now on sisi, hulk is showing 5%/level resistances on the info as well as on the fitting screen. yield is still at 3%/level for both mining barge and exhumer on the information screen.
also
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1725209#post1725209
more goodies tomorrow. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
ugh zug
27
|
Posted - 2012.07.31 19:56:00 -
[542] - Quote
i would like to add, a laser is a laser, why is it that mining lasers/strip lasers cannot be used as a weapon against attacking parties? they dont have to be supper effective, but they should be able to do some damage, i mean they break rocks ffs. Want me to shut up?-á Send me ISK and i'll stop giving suggestions to CCP that make sense. Remove content from my post, 15 bil Remove my content from a thread I have started 30bil. |
nardaq
Orion Expeditions
23
|
Posted - 2012.07.31 20:17:00 -
[543] - Quote
U can nerf anything BUT don't touch the cargo for the crystals. UI is already a pain in the ass and swapping type will be even more a pain in the ass. Not even mentioning multi boxing
350m3 = 14 crystals = 4 sets. Good for empire, not for 0.0
Go change the cargo on the amarr ship to 5m3 or so....... |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
172
|
Posted - 2012.07.31 22:02:00 -
[544] - Quote
ugh zug wrote:i would like to add, a laser is a laser, why is it that mining lasers/strip lasers cannot be used as a weapon against attacking parties? they dont have to be supper effective, but they should be able to do some damage, i mean they break rocks ffs. Rocks don't have shields. You just need to shock them right and they pulverise for the tractor beams to pick up. They are optimised for that process, so while you could *tell* if they were pointed at your ship, the shields of the weakest combat frigate are more than strong enough to compensate for them effortlessly. |
Cynosural Sari
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.07.31 22:38:00 -
[545] - Quote
I see a problem: What is the cost of these ships going to be at current mineral prices?
Originally, you had three tiers of Exhumer, with scaling build costs.
Now you have three Exhumers that are in theory equal.
Yet the Skiff is like 100M, the Mack is 170M and the Hulk is almost 300M.
Since the Hulk was improved a bit, and the Mack and Skiff were radically improved - wouldn't it makes sense for all of the new Exhumers cost roughly 400M each?
A Retriever, with a massive cargo bay and large amounts of EHP - still costing 5M is quite silly.
While generally ship buffs and nerfs generally are independent of cost...this is a major rework for the Barge class, and build costs should be revised upwards significantly.....
|
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
335
|
Posted - 2012.07.31 22:41:00 -
[546] - Quote
the mats for the barges has been changed on sisi, there's a thread about it in science and industry. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Blastil
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
8
|
Posted - 2012.08.01 15:28:00 -
[547] - Quote
Cynosural Sari wrote:I see a problem: What is the cost of these ships going to be at current mineral prices?
Originally, you had three tiers of Exhumer, with scaling build costs.
Now you have three Exhumers that are in theory equal.
Yet the Skiff is like 100M, the Mack is 170M and the Hulk is almost 300M.
Since the Hulk was improved a bit, and the Mack and Skiff were radically improved - wouldn't it makes sense for all of the new Exhumers cost roughly 400M each?
A Retriever, with a massive cargo bay and large amounts of EHP - still costing 5M is quite silly.
While generally ship buffs and nerfs generally are independent of cost...this is a major rework for the Barge class, and build costs should be revised upwards significantly.....
I see supply and demand working this out. Macs and skiffs are cheep because they're worthless. I would expect them to go up in price between 20 and 50 mil a piece after changes due to demand increase. If what you're saying is true, the economy will hold this out.
as for the t1 barges, They'll go up in price as well for the same reasons, but I would hate to see it get out of hand, because the retriever is a 2 month ship, and it is the first REAL mining ship newbies have. that being said, interceptors are the first real pvp ships pvp players get into and they cost 30 mil to buy hull + fittings, so 15-20 mil would be reasonable for the tier 1 mining ship.
|
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
371
|
Posted - 2012.08.01 15:35:00 -
[548] - Quote
Cynosural Sari wrote: wouldn't it makes sense for all of the new Exhumers cost roughly 400M each?
**** no.. they shouldn't be more than 100m If you don't see a problem in 0.0 eroding into two big super-coalitions and a few hangers on in areas nobody cares about.. then you don't have brains. |
Jitaseller
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.01 19:14:00 -
[549] - Quote
It would have been nice to see the ice / merc rigs changed into a mid slot module. Rig juggling just seems to be another needlessly done mechanic, when a module could easily be put in to accomplish the same thing. |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
114
|
Posted - 2012.08.01 19:16:00 -
[550] - Quote
Jitaseller wrote:It would have been nice to see the ice / merc rigs changed into a mid slot module. Rig juggling just seems to be another needlessly done mechanic, when a module could easily be put in to accomplish the same thing. This. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
265
|
Posted - 2012.08.01 19:34:00 -
[551] - Quote
Jitaseller wrote:It would have been nice to see the ice / merc rigs changed into a mid slot module. Rig juggling just seems to be another needlessly done mechanic, when a module could easily be put in to accomplish the same thing. Yield increases seem like the mining equivalent of a weapon damage upgrade. As such it does seem to me to make more sense in the lows and rigs as it currently is. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
136
|
Posted - 2012.08.01 22:34:00 -
[552] - Quote
Jitaseller wrote:It would have been nice to see the ice / merc rigs changed into a mid slot module. Rig juggling just seems to be another needlessly done mechanic, when a module could easily be put in to accomplish the same thing. The point is to use rigs to make the ships specialized like the bonuses used to.
theyre supposed to me more or less permanent. |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
114
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 00:02:00 -
[553] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Jitaseller wrote:It would have been nice to see the ice / merc rigs changed into a mid slot module. Rig juggling just seems to be another needlessly done mechanic, when a module could easily be put in to accomplish the same thing. The point is to use rigs to make the ships specialized like the bonuses used to. theyre supposed to me more or less permanent. We all know that rigs are permanent - until you replace/destroy the rig, repackage the ship or get it blown up. :)
I think what Jitaseller is really getting at is that by using a rig to "define" an Ice / Ore / Merc miner, you are unnessarily forcing people to 'buy' 3 ships (if you're doing all 3 activities).
Yes, you can buy multiple rigs and replace the rig each time you change activities, but let's be honest, how many people are going to spend 5M (complete guess here on cost) for a rig change everytime they want to use the same ship hull (e.g. Mack) to do a different activity (e.g. ice to ore to Mercoxit mining). In the short run, it might seem easier, but long term, you're going to be spending a lot of unnecessary ISK on rigs. I'm sure the rig builders won't mind selling those extra rigs though.
By using a mid-slot to define the mining role, you can instead fit that mid-tank item in the rig slots, and use a single hull for all the different mining roles.
Much more streamlined & efficient. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
137
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 01:40:00 -
[554] - Quote
I think the point is that its supposed to be inefficient.
people didnt have a problem buying three different ships to do the different things before.
youre supposed to want multiple ships for the different activities, PvP players do this all the time. At least you get the added advantage of having a ship that CAN do the things its not rigged for, just not as well.
No matter how I rig my armageddon, it doesnt shield tank all that well. |
Jitaseller
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 17:38:00 -
[555] - Quote
By that logic I should now buy 9 different barges to fill 3 of the roles for each hull? |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
115
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 20:10:00 -
[556] - Quote
Sigras wrote:I think the point is that its supposed to be inefficient.
people didnt have a problem buying three different ships to do the different things before.
youre supposed to want multiple ships for the different activities, PvP players do this all the time. At least you get the added advantage of having a ship that CAN do the things its not rigged for, just not as well.
No matter how I rig my armageddon, it doesnt shield tank all that well. Before this change, each ship had speciality -- Skiff for Merx, Mack for Ice, Hulk for Ore. They were specialized so you had to buy all 3 hulls to be efficient at the specialized task.
As Jitaseller points out:
Jitaseller wrote:By that logic I should now buy 9 different barges to fill 3 of the roles for each hull? HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Hypercake Mix
Magical Rainbow Bakery
7
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 20:39:00 -
[557] - Quote
Posted this in the wrong place before... but...
I think Exhumer tank needs to be brought back up a few more notches. We still don't know what the Destroyer rebalancing and beyond will bring. |
Zyella Stormborn
Alpha Strategy In Umbra Mortis
34
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 21:59:00 -
[558] - Quote
Jitaseller wrote:It would have been nice to see the ice / merc rigs changed into a mid slot module. Rig juggling just seems to be another needlessly done mechanic, when a module could easily be put in to accomplish the same thing.
I was thinking a Mod similar to the T3 cruisers setup. Attach the Ice harvesting mod. Or the Mercox mining mod, etc. Won't happen I'm sure, but hey, I like the concept and think it would have been perfect. |
Kyra Yaken
State War Academy Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 11:49:00 -
[559] - Quote
Zyella Stormborn wrote:I was thinking a Mod similar to the T3 cruisers setup. Attach the Ice harvesting mod. Or the Mercox mining mod, etc. Won't happen I'm sure, but hey, I like the concept and think it would have been perfect.
Or give us t3 mining ship where we can install modules either for tank, cargo, yield, along with ice, merc, gas, roid modules. |
Carola Kessler
Lost Sisters Of New Eden Freelancer Coalition
39
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 11:55:00 -
[560] - Quote
New Patch out, again no relevant changes to Mining Ships / Exhumers......disappointing.
sincerly
Carola Kessler |
|
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
354
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 11:56:00 -
[561] - Quote
Carola Kessler wrote:New Patch out, again no relevant changes to Mining Ships / Exhumers......disappointing. sincerly Carola Kessler
how about changes to crystals? Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Carola Kessler
Lost Sisters Of New Eden Freelancer Coalition
39
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 12:39:00 -
[562] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Carola Kessler wrote:New Patch out, again no relevant changes to Mining Ships / Exhumers......disappointing. sincerly Carola Kessler how about changes to crystals?
Nothing far as i could see, the current patch was for fixing some defects acording to an present Bughunter.
sincerly
Carola Kessler |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
91
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 17:54:00 -
[563] - Quote
Are these feedback threads only one way?
Why no dev response. Senex Legio - Recruiter Team Member
CCP reduce the mining crystal to 1m3, or give me a good reason why they have to be so large. |
Jitaseller
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:08:00 -
[564] - Quote
I don't know why the left that third low on the mackinaw, it's eroded the hulks base 21% mining advantage into a 13% mining advantage as everyone and their dog will be fitting 3 MLU II to a mack. It still fits everything with the former faction amp and or sb hulk fittings cpu wise.
Congrats tallest ? |
Arctos Canis
Ice Wolves
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 22:00:00 -
[565] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:Are these feedback threads only one way?
Why no dev response.
maybe they are not permitted to reply to this thread cuz this issue is to sensitive to all miners and they try to avoid this matter to escalate even further... cuz as of yet we are not pleased of their intervention to how people mine. and after patch its gonna be "they're way or the high way" ... |
Noslen Nosilla
Federal Logistics Initiative Conglomerate
11
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 11:33:00 -
[566] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:Are these feedback threads only one way?
Why no dev response.
Here is your response pliots new Devblog
Although as of posting SISI does not reflect the devblog the Hulk has a 7500m3 ore hold. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
502
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 19:31:00 -
[567] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:Are these feedback threads only one way?
Why no dev response.
we gave tellest a really hard time when he did weapon balance and now he wont talk to us...
pretty sure he still reads what we have to say... but an open convo with him is out of the question...
believe me i have tried and failed...
Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
Omnathious Deninard
M'Tar Logistics Division Night Sky Alliance
27
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 20:25:00 -
[568] - Quote
Jitaseller wrote:I don't know why the left that third low on the mackinaw, it's eroded the hulks base 21% mining advantage into a 13% mining advantage as everyone and their dog will be fitting 3 MLU II to a mack. It still fits everything with the former faction amp and or sb hulk fittings cpu wise.
Congrats tallest ? That third low is the only yeald difference between the skiff and the mackinaw |
RangerGord
Rothschild's Sewage and Septic Sucking Services The Possum Lodge
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 22:59:00 -
[569] - Quote
29 pages and no dev response yet, gg CCP, actually not...
Anyhoo, as I was reading through some of the reasoning behind them making these changes because the Hulk was over used I realized something (which apparently they missed):
The Hulk is the highest level/tier mining ship in the game, therefore it is the goal of a mining character to fly a Hulk. If you had a highest level battleship, that was better than all the rest, but at the same time more expensive and took more SP to get into, would you be surprised if people trained to get that single ship and used it all the time?
These changes are like saying (for instance) to fly an Badger II took the same skills as an Badger I that you would be surprised if the Badger II was the most used of the two and you think that people should be using the Badger I instead? (I think thats how I wanted to phrase it, not that its actually going to be read by a dev anyways) |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
423
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 23:31:00 -
[570] - Quote
RangerGord wrote:29 pages and no dev response yet, gg CCP, actually not...
Anyhoo, as I was reading through some of the reasoning behind them making these changes because the Hulk was over used I realized something (which apparently they missed):
The Hulk is the highest level/tier mining ship in the game, therefore it is the goal of a mining character to fly a Hulk. If you had a highest level battleship, that was better than all the rest, but at the same time more expensive and took more SP to get into, would you be surprised if people trained to get that single ship and used it all the time?
These changes are like saying (for instance) to fly an Badger II took the same skills as an Badger I that you would be surprised if the Badger II was the most used of the two and you think that people should be using the Badger I instead? (I think thats how I wanted to phrase it, not that its actually going to be read by a dev anyways) But what about if when they change industrials they give the Badger a better tank and the badger 2 a bigger cargo? Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Jitaseller
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 23:39:00 -
[571] - Quote
The tier removal is not the problem, nor is giving one ship a tank advantage, one an autonomous advantage, and the last a yield advantage. The problem is how these are lining up, and that they're using ship low slots to balance the three instead of ship hull bonuses (among other issues like crystal sizing).
If they don't want a skiff mining as much as a mackinaw, then the skiff should lose the yield bonus part of the exhumer skill (I don't think it should), or the mackinaw's exhumer skill yield bonus should be raised from 1 > 2% per level. That's a progressive fix, based on skill points rather then fitting requirements, and would reward people for maxing. The mack would be ~6% better then the skiff, and the hulk would still be ~17% better then the mackinaw. That's reasonable, and the hulk pays for it with the worst cargo, hp, align time, speed, crystal use ($), worst autonomy, etc.
Unfortunately they chose the absolute laziest way and gave the mack a third low, which erodes that base hull advantage the hulk gets, it's only advantage, by almost 50%.
Tallest has not commented once in any of the threads with substance, only saying there's no T2 rigs and cal costs are staying as is. Ytterbium's just rehashed that they want the skiff line to be tanky, the mack line to be autonomous, and the hulk line to mine the most. Lastly we also had a half-baked promise/answer by Goliath about the crystal sizing / cargo bay issue, of which nothing ever materialized. It's not hard to draw a conclusion that this team has zero public communication skills, nor are they letting QA staff know what's really happening. Contrast this with the UI team member Punkturis, it's rather sad to see how poor the lines of communication are.
The utter silence is pathetic. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
139
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 08:30:00 -
[572] - Quote
RangerGord wrote:29 pages and no dev response yet, gg CCP, actually not...
Anyhoo, as I was reading through some of the reasoning behind them making these changes because the Hulk was over used I realized something (which apparently they missed):
The Hulk is the highest level/tier mining ship in the game, therefore it is the goal of a mining character to fly a Hulk. If you had a highest level battleship, that was better than all the rest, but at the same time more expensive and took more SP to get into, would you be surprised if people trained to get that single ship and used it all the time?
These changes are like saying (for instance) to fly an Badger II took the same skills as an Badger I that you would be surprised if the Badger II was the most used of the two and you think that people should be using the Badger I instead? (I think thats how I wanted to phrase it, not that its actually going to be read by a dev anyways) you realize that youre basically giving CCP permission to invalidate 60% of the content in their game right?
The point of balance is that different ships/modules do different roles but are still equally balanced. Personally, im upset that the badger 2 supplants the badger 1, or that the iteron mark 5 is better in every way than the 1-4, they should have different roles, and there should be different reasons to fly any given ship at any given time.
IMHO, if you name a ship, I should be able to tell you a scenario where that ship is the best choice over every other in the game, and this should go for every ship.
For instance, the zealot and the harbinger are very similar in most cases, so most people fly the harbinger because its quite a bit cheaper, but a harbinger cant armor HAC because it doesnt have the low sig of the zealot, and its quite a bit slower. so in an AHAC gang, the zealot is better. |
Arctos Canis
Ice Wolves
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 13:57:00 -
[573] - Quote
Today i started wondering if anyone has tried reaching CSM so they would point out this issue as per community voice is being ignored and not heard? |
Noslen Nosilla
Federal Logistics Initiative Conglomerate
11
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 15:27:00 -
[574] - Quote
New Build on SISI,
All hulls but Skiff got a tank nerf
Stats are pretty much as advertized in the DevBlog
I find it sad that I can't tank a "new" Hulk (on SISI) to what I have tanked on TQ.
Before this build I could get a Mackinaw to a nice 44k tank now I'm challenged to get it to 24k.
I haven't even looked at the T1 Barges I don't feel like being more depressed.
If I could figure out how to mount a gun on my Skiff I'd run missions in it. Or gank miners in Hulks and Gankinaws.
Yes I'm bitter about the tank issue....we started out with so much promise a miner that could mine a nice amount of ore and standoff a gank from a 1 misk ship. Now it will take 3?
I had hopes that for once CCP would follow through but no I don't see it.
I hate to put on the tinfoil hat here but maybe the conspiracy people are correct, that OTEC does wag the CCP dog.
It showed promise CCP but just once could I have a ship that is not nerfed?
I like the new orebay, (I wish the cargohold on the Hulk and Covetor was 50m3 larger but I can live with that) I like the smaller crystals, but the nerf to the tank is puzzling and just plain frustrating.
So here in advance are my tears. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
139
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 16:01:00 -
[575] - Quote
so, CCP made 3 hulls with 2 roles (the mackinaw had both tank and cargo size) and now youre upset that they're making it 3 hulls with 3 different roles?
Does anyone else see the problem here? |
Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
110
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 16:21:00 -
[576] - Quote
Sigras wrote:so, CCP made 3 hulls with 2 roles (the mackinaw had both tank and cargo size) and now you're upset that they're making it 3 hulls with 3 different roles?
Does anyone else see the problem here?
We have a meat lover's pizza (Hulk), a thick crust pizza (Mack), and a pizza with extra cheese (Skiff). The problem is: the meat lover's pizza and the thick crust pizza don't come with any cheese at all.
Eve is a game of pick 2 good things, but the devs keep thinking it is pick 1. Pick 2 to be good: DPS (other ships) DPS (asteroids) DPS (wrecks (salvage)) DPA (other ships) (Damage Per Alpha) Cargo (Cargo) Cargo (Other hold) Tank (Shield) Tank (Armor) Speed Stealth Utility (ECM) Utility (Repair) Utility (Disruption) Utility (Other)
Hulk: DPS (asteroids)
Mackinaw: Cargo (Other Hold)
Skiff: Tank (Shield) Speed
Noctis: DPS (wrecks) Cargo (Hold)
Most combat ships have: DPS (ships) Tank/Speed
The ship designs in Eve needs to be 100% of two, 75% of one, and 50% of one or two, and token everything else.
Drox |
Arctos Canis
Ice Wolves
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 16:22:00 -
[577] - Quote
Noslen Nosilla wrote:New Build on SISI, All hulls but Skiff got a tank nerf Stats are pretty much as advertized in the DevBlogI find it sad that I can't tank a "new" Hulk (on SISI) to what I have tanked on TQ. Before this build I could get a Mackinaw to a nice 44k tank now I'm challenged to get it to 24k. I haven't even looked at the T1 Barges I don't feel like being more depressed. If I could figure out how to mount a gun on my Skiff I'd run missions in it. Or gank miners in Hulks and Gankinaws. Yes I'm bitter about the tank issue....we started out with so much promise a miner that could mine a nice amount of ore and standoff a gank from a 1 misk ship. Now it will take 3? I had hopes that for once CCP would follow through but no I don't see it. I hate to put on the tinfoil hat here but maybe the conspiracy people are correct, that OTEC does wag the CCP dog. It showed promise CCP but just once could I have a ship that is not nerfed? I like the new orebay, (I wish the cargohold on the Hulk and Covetor was 50m3 larger but I can live with that) I like the smaller crystals, but the nerf to the tank is puzzling and just plain frustrating. So here in advance are my tears.
I like the resent dev blog impression that they wanted to make exumers more sturdy cuz they could of blown up if someone sneezed on them and from the very beginning of the development of this project they were continuously nerfing what was not that bad at the very beginning. It just sedans me to |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
321
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 16:49:00 -
[578] - Quote
I am liking most of the barge changes right now (Aug 6th) on Sisi. The only thing I object to is the claim that barges have "new roles". If anything barges now have no roles. CCP has added stats to help with survival and bumped up the productivity of some barges to equal them out more... while removing the roles. Hulk is master of all roles now - except it can't solo as well.
Quote:They might not make it any more exciting, but at least miners will have to make some meaningful decisions before they undock. Our decisions were meaningful before. The change will make our decisions less about the "right ship for the job" and more about risk vs reward. Frankly, I going to miss the role specific ships. [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG] |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
394
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 17:17:00 -
[579] - Quote
final build on sisi -
mackinaw has it's 450m3 cargo, 35000m3 ore (28k+5%/level), but it's tank was reduced hulk now has it's 8500m3 ore If you don't see a problem in 0.0 eroding into two big super-coalitions and a few hangers on in areas nobody cares about.. then you don't have brains. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
362
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 17:52:00 -
[580] - Quote
Denidil wrote:final build on sisi -
mackinaw has it's 450m3 cargo, 35000m3 ore (28k+5%/level), but it's tank was reduced hulk now has it's 8500m3 ore
if it wasn't so ******** it'd be funny that the mack can hold even more crystals now.... Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
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Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
394
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 19:50:00 -
[581] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:WHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA WWWWWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAA I HAVE TO USE THE FLEET SHIP IN A FLEET FOR IT TO BE MAXIMALLY EFFECTIVE WWWWWWWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA If you don't see a problem in 0.0 eroding into two big super-coalitions and a few hangers on in areas nobody cares about.. then you don't have brains. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
363
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 20:01:00 -
[582] - Quote
Denidil wrote:Dave stark wrote:WHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA WWWWWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAA I HAVE TO USE THE FLEET SHIP IN A FLEET FOR IT TO BE MAXIMALLY EFFECTIVE WWWWWWWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
if you say so, sweet cheeks. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
139
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 20:31:00 -
[583] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Denidil wrote:final build on sisi -
mackinaw has it's 450m3 cargo, 35000m3 ore (28k+5%/level), but it's tank was reduced hulk now has it's 8500m3 ore if it wasn't so ******** it'd be funny that the mack can hold even more crystals now.... actually I agree with this change. the mack is supposed to be the king of autonomy. Its supposed to be the ship for the lazy miner who just wants to sit in a belt, chew rocks, and not move.
IMHO i would like to see the 1% strip miner yield changed to a 10% bonus to cargo capacity per level. This would give it 675 m^3 of cargo space letting it fit almost all the mining crystals in the game, but make it a bit worse when compared against the yield of the hulk. |
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