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Trebor Daehdoow
Sane Industries Inc.
559
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Posted - 2011.09.24 10:23:00 -
[91] - Quote
(from the main thread)
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:Trebor, you posted this just to farm Likes, right?
Not originally, but Two Step pointed out that I could, and you know what a fan I am of optimization. And to be fair, I'm liking everyone back who follows the rules -- unlike you! CSM - because I have not yet plumbed the depths of my inherent masochism! CSM 6 Activities Summary | My CSM blog |
Kblackjack54
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
1
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Posted - 2011.09.24 12:17:00 -
[92] - Quote
Nice of CCP devGÇÖs to give the masses some indication of what they propose to do in the future, near or otherwise, also that they have finally condescended to admit that the players do have a positive part to play in the development of this game.
The revisions proposed, no matter how they are GÇÿSpunGÇÖ up are in fact GÇÿreversionsGÇÖ to an earlier state in the game but only in part, few I know in game have used or are ever intending to use the much vaunted CQ environment, preferring to look at a closed door than be dictated to in this manner by CCP.
I quick scan through the members of my corporation gives an indication of the distain they look upon this change with, GÇÿNo eyeglasses, No fancy blouses and bootsGÇÖ AUR amounts fixed at 2000, in short they are just not interested in that aspect of the game at all on any level, so that was a scrub from before it was imposed.
Let us go beyond that matter and look at the changes they enforced upon players in the name of GÇÿBetter gaming environment and greater player interactionGÇÖ.
Jump bridges, meant to force players into the clutches of rabid PvPGÇÖers, said in forum players would not let this make a difference to their interactions and why, and it does not, FAIL.
Proposed changes to Super caps, not introduced, resulted in huge areaGÇÖs of 0.0 space currently unoccupied by anything other than POS gathering huge amounts of ISK for a single entity, bit of a problem for players to interact with empty space, FAIL.
Proposed changes to Sovereignty mechanics not introduced, again huge areaGÇÖs of 0.0 in the hands of a single entity so compressing vast numbers of players into smaller and smaller areaGÇÖs, good for inter Corp politics, not good for the game as a whole, FAIL.
In short almost everything designed by CCP to force players to do something has in reality failed miserably when all players have ever asked CCP to do is take the crayons of those crack head script kiddies they employ and GÇÿforce themGÇÖ, to fix what they broke in the first place, like perma jamming ratz and POS mechanics, simple stuff that really does effect the gaming environment in a negative manner to name but two.
Looking back over the years I have been involved with this game it has become more apparent that the one thing CCP lacks is insight into what makes people who play EVE actually play it at all, and the one thing it is not is rampant PvP for all, itGÇÖs there if you want it, but not as the staple fare of the game. What actually makes players play this game is the game itself, a multi facet micro environment that takes intelligent use of time and skill to master, just like R/L in many ways, and just like in R/L if something does not work correctly, if at all the customer will either complain or just not buy the product.
CCP you broke your product, stunted its growth by not addressing issues that the playerGÇÖs, your customers find a problem to their game play and enjoyment, to date you have stoically refused to acknowledge this and to all apparent information still intend to do so, FAIL.
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Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor The Seventh Day
32
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Posted - 2011.09.24 12:18:00 -
[93] - Quote
OK Here It Is....
It's a little too easy for the CSM to band together after the fact and say "Bring back stations spinning!" and "Focus on spaceships!" AFTER an obviously failed Incarna expansion. CCP see's the numbers and I'd bet good money that they are listening to their own analysts and not you.
With or without the CSM, I am thinking that CCP would have brought back station spinning anyway. I am betting that they would have seen the numbers drop and realized their flop, without any of you.
Do You See All The Dev Activity On These Forums Now?
They are obviiusly trying to increase communication and make us feel better. This has nothing to do with what the "CSM" wants. It is an attempt to increase profits and fix what has been broken.
CSM's
Get cracking on things that the community wants. "More focus on spaceships" means what exactly? Are you going to urge low sec improvements? Null Sec Improvements? Empire Improvements? Ship Balancing? What exactly does this mean?
Quote:* Any new content should be directly related to providing support for iteration of existing content.
Easy enough to say sure, but it doesn't say anything does it? The community has been telling CCP and the CSM exactly what we want. Ask us and we will tell you, hear us and then go make something change... Our wishes are not a mystery, you only choose to ignore.
And can someone tell me why someone in the CSM seat has been bringing up nerfing Wh minerals? No one seems to want to answer this question.
Do you think WH minerals are currently relevant to the community's needs and wishes? [insert answer here] |
Destructor1792
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2011.09.24 12:38:00 -
[94] - Quote
IMO, this game actually started losing focus not long after they created the CSM
Way back when, someone originally asked CCP of the lifespawn of EvE. If I recall, the figure was around 15 years (based on current technology & ideas back then!).
Now the CSM should be getting back to the roots. Start at the simplest level, what's broke (or not working as intended) & go from there. Leave the Game Development to CCP. If they screw up bad enough, the forums will light up like an Xmas tree to let them know.
BUT Remember, 80% of the userbase doesn't even use the forums or have never posted on them so you are their unspoken voices.
Eve is a complex game which should remain so. Any dumbing down will result in the loss of the player base who wanted somethng different. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
85
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Posted - 2011.09.24 13:41:00 -
[95] - Quote
mkint wrote:You really trust CCP to create a new UI without completely decimating the functionality of the current one?
Yes, I do trust CCP to be able to rework the UI without completely screwing it up. In fact, I'm sure CCP could go a long way in making the UI more usable and useful without screwing it up at all. There are plenty of game UIs to draw cues from, and plenty of CCP-built videos showing UI styles that could be implemented in the game to add that little bit of "zing" instead of having the entire interface rendered in white lines drawn in 2D over the top of a rendered 3D viewport.
In much the same way that modern GUI utilise the 3D card to render each window and compose the display by stacking those windows and rendering to 2D, the EVE UI could benefit from using those amazingly powerful 3D cards that are minimum spec these days.
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Zey Nadar
Aliastra Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2011.09.24 14:24:00 -
[96] - Quote
The thing that I agree on is that "CCP should listen its players more", but overall I think most marks were missed.
In my opinion the most important problems to solve are eve turning into "supercaps online" and accumulation of wealth to the already wealthy, while those in weak position (no lucrative moons) are weakened further (anomaly change).
While I do like the idea of walking-in-stations, above issues should be given top priority.
I have stopped sub because eve has become boring. Maybe if there are changes in above issues I may resub. Or if there finally will be meaningful game content on the stations. Until then o/ |
AFKCloaked AltSpy
MasterMined Technologies
13
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Posted - 2011.09.24 14:43:00 -
[97] - Quote
Grateler wrote:
No one is telling the how to do anything but telling them what needs fixing.
Not sure where your comments are coming from....
Yes, Mittins has directly come out and said he was trying to manipulate the macro management of CCP. And Trebor again directly states it in the original thread 'CSM Statement regarding CCP refocusing'. Try to keep up.
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Ladie Scarlet
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
186
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Posted - 2011.09.24 17:22:00 -
[98] - Quote
Destructor1792 wrote:BUT Remember, 80% of the userbase doesn't even use the forums or have never posted on them so you are their unspoken voices. Those people don't count until they embrace the "never stop posting" lifestyle.
The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet. |
Swooshie
USA Canada Private Corp
22
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Posted - 2011.09.24 20:02:00 -
[99] - Quote
Guys, be careful here tho. You are creating a perfect excuse for CCP to blame the next fail on (if fail there is), it wouldn't take a long stretch to blame the CSM for false aim of focus.
I will admit, however, that the CSM moves, right now scream political capital and future votes. "It is when I think about meaning that I lose what I meant to say." -á-á-á -Swooshie |
Ladie Scarlet
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
189
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Posted - 2011.09.24 21:40:00 -
[100] - Quote
Do away with voting and make The Mittani Chairman For Life. The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet. |
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Crusa Alearf
Avon Cosmetics
1
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Posted - 2011.09.24 21:46:00 -
[101] - Quote
We definetely need a dedicated balance team. I can't believe there isn't one! All this balance stuff has been going on for forever (and it will still continue even with the team). But hopefully the team could improve on the current state of things! |
Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
140
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Posted - 2011.09.24 22:06:00 -
[102] - Quote
Swooshie wrote:Guys, be careful here tho. You are creating a perfect excuse for CCP to blame the next fail on (if fail there is), it wouldn't take a long stretch to blame the CSM for false aim of focus.
I will admit, however, that the CSM moves, right now scream political capital and future votes. There can not be fail if they follow crowdsourcing as their primary objective and do some important sideprojects of "their own" in the background. Some people obviously will not get what they want and will be unhappy to the things listed in crowdsourcing. These people however are the ones who would complain most likely about anything what isn't something they want. Voting works in real world and it works in the game also as long enough information is handed out and made sure that people know about what they are voting.
Obviously people who care about something will vote. However to make sure to get wide enough spread of voters, voting should be advertised and perhaps even rewarded somehow. There is always the silent majority who doesn't really care and won't vote. It is perfectly ok as they are the people who also adapt the best - or perhaps become active voters next time.
Aim of focus doesn't mean that CCP would have their hands tied. It just means that players get at least something important to them and game keeps evolving to the direction where the playerbase is willing it to go. If CCP thinks that incarna is their thing - they keep doing it. It is not a problem as long the main focus is on stuff what people actually value.
There is no way to please everyone right away, but if we take 10 yeard period of development, the potential truely could be something epic. Just focus on the content, don't be afraid to rewrite old code to make it better, improve graphics when possible, but don't do that to hide crap content. Rewritten old content with new features can be better crowdpleaser than some totally new feature what looks good but has no use to anyone.
This game has been under testing since 2003. Old forums are full of suggestions and long articles howto improve eve. There is more documentation and research about existing features than any manager could wish for. It is like golden plate full of win waiting for someone to come and loot. Usually companies pay top dollar to gain such information, but perhaps in here that has become too obvious thing to notice.
This is a game - it may be serious business but people still play it to enjoy themselves - give them stuff to enjoy and they stay. Forum fix for firefox and chrome Get working images and colored text Classic forum style 2.25final |
Erik Finnegan
Polytechnique Gallenteenne
8
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Posted - 2011.09.25 10:39:00 -
[103] - Quote
CCP must not let WiS stale in half finished state either. Now they started with it, they must continue and give us establishments.
DUST is bound to be released. Unfortunately, The Great Link is still very obscure, yet - as Torfi said - only an all-out integration of both games will implement the promise. I also think that only player-driven conflict will keep DUST successful and players interested versus the vast market of similar IPs.
With that baggage on their back, how many devs and artists are free to be reassigned to FiS ?
Maybe, with some luck, CCP will allow themselves and us the luxury topick one old rotten feature for iteration. It must be one only so it be good when it's winter expansion time. One shiny one that Marketing will be able to sell as if it were new. One that bugs players so much at its current state that they will go out and tell the story to every interested pilot how awesome EVE has turned out to be. |
Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor The Seventh Day
36
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Posted - 2011.09.25 11:49:00 -
[104] - Quote
Crusa Alearf wrote:We definetely need a dedicated balance team. I can't believe there isn't one! All this balance stuff has been going on for forever (and it will still continue even with the team). But hopefully the team could improve on the current state of things!
This would prove far more productive then the CSM. |
ZynnLee Akkori
Perkone Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.09.25 11:52:00 -
[105] - Quote
CCP isn't developing this game for us, the players. We are just a convenient tool for sending them money. They develop their game... THEIR game... for the Industry. They do it for their ego. They do it to make video's, get interviewed by Industry journalists, win Awards, and put on Fan Fest's. And the root of their motivation for making Eve Online is to make a paycheck. I am sure that some CCP employee's do want to make a fun game, but this is secondary to the important things.
There has been exactly ONE, in the history of MMO's, ONE game developed where the Dev team paid more than casual interest in what the players wanted. This game is also dying. And yet, as it peaks and begins a slow decline, millions of players are still sending in their subscription fee's. Why? Because the Dev's did pay a little more attention to what their paying user's wanted. Not totally, but a lot more than CCP. Or any other MMO out there. They were rewarded for this (and other decisions maximizing their appeal like hardware platforms, easy "career paths", low barrier to entry, etc) by becoming an Industry juggernaut. And I only joined after my game of choice finally got too bad to play anymore (that other sci-Fi MMO). And I only played long enough to understand the game, and gladly quit.
CCP need's to give players what they want, even if CCP doesn't agree with it. They need to stop developing for their ego, and they need to give up the idea that (whispers) "If we make it, they will come!" No, CCP, you don't know what is best for us. You don't know better than us what is fun for us. We won't be glad that you have shown us what we *should* think is fun. And we don't care about how many journalists are knocking on your door to interview you, or how many personal assistants you have. We want you to fix the game. Fix it!
The PR machine is humming along smoothly. That's all we are hearing. The CSM system is just another branch of the Company PR apparatus. As long as they are under an NDA, we can't trust them. As long as CCP has to "approve" the statements of the CSM, we can't trust them. It's just smoke and mirrors to distract us from the fact that CCP isn't doing what is best for US. They are doing what's best for themselves. |
trexinatux
Bipedal Carnivore Club
2
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Posted - 2011.09.25 12:01:00 -
[106] - Quote
CCP we need more polish on FIS. Please add:
1. More better Sexy Interactive GUI w/ more audio queues. - Attract everyone. 2. Reduce the draconian skill training times. - Attract Casuals 3. Add a "CareBear" low risk PvP element. - Attract CareBears to PvP Turn them into CareMonsters 4. Earning Aurum by doing very difficult things in game. - Attract Grinders 5. More shiny things to keep me looking at the game instead of browsing forums on the In game browser. - Attract instant gratification crowd. |
Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor The Seventh Day
36
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Posted - 2011.09.25 12:47:00 -
[107] - Quote
Quote:CCP isn't doing what is best for US. They are doing what's best for themselves.
It's a company & they are supposed to?
It just so happens that giving the player base what they have been asking for for years, will better their company in profound ways. If only their CEO understood that, but I don't think that he does.
Did you hear him in the alliance tournaments? He was unable to even name the different ships in "his own" video game. Not necessarily a bad thing, but if he don't get little things like Gallente has RSD, and Amarr has TD, then how can he grasp the nuances that are imported to his player base?
He can't. & as far as I know there is no "CCP team" present to discern such information, or at the very least, read these forums and bring what people complain about everyday to the folks in charge. The CSM sure as hell isn't doing anything.
Thus, I must assume CCP's CEO is out somewhere buying more pants. After which, upon seeing them... all of his friends will admire him! Because I know I admire people when I see them wearing 1,000 dollar pants! What? Don't you? |
BearUkraine
Light Style
0
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Posted - 2011.09.25 13:11:00 -
[108] - Quote
Generally I agree with CSM Statement, but any way I am waiting for Incarna. I think it is nice part of eve world. From my point of view, would be so cool to make something like Mass Effect online, where people can choose themselfs what to do. It can be pew pew inside of station (if I cant take station using ships, why CCP doesnt want to give us possibility to take it by holding a weapon in our avatars' hands?). I would like to have shops, bars, but it doesnt mean that ships not interesting for me any more. It just great opportunity of our choise, like what deside - mission running or exploration or WH? I agree there are problems, but must be clearly defined balance between spending time on the new features and fixing existing code. EVE is the WORLD, UNIVERSE. EVE must be represented from all sides, not just ships. |
Eli Strange
Gravity Mining and Manufacturing Inc The Company LLC
0
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Posted - 2011.09.25 15:31:00 -
[109] - Quote
I enjoyed your post, and I did +1 the post. However, I hope you mean that CCP will reprioritize FIS to the front, and not abandon WIS. I do think they have great potential in WIS, but I do agree that they need to shore up FIS before moving into the flashy content. |
Garo Hertee
Eclipse Industrials Quantum Forge
2
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Posted - 2011.09.26 10:04:00 -
[110] - Quote
Eli Strange wrote:I enjoyed your post, and I did +1 the post. However, I hope you mean that CCP will reprioritize FIS to the front, and not abandon WIS. I do think they have great potential in WIS, but I do agree that they need to shore up FIS before moving into the flashy content.
I completely agree. CCP is never going to make everyone happy, especially since we have represented in the playerbase the very extremes of opinion from "You've been promising WiS for years, give it to us now" to "This is a FiS game and time spent on anything else is a total waste." The key is balance.
For good or ill, WiS is now with us. Personally I looked at it for a whole 10 minutes then elected to turn it off. Why? It's eye candy and it's nice but there's no actual gameplay in it for now. For now. As far as I can determine, this is what was intended of this first release, a stepping stone to getting beyond the door to establishments and having some gameplay in WiS. Personally, I'm still hopeful, although I like the feature mentioned in the recent devblog to choose whether to stay in your ship or enter your CQ when you dock. That's at least a nod to those who have no interest in WiS.
While I agree with the CSM's statement in general, I think that now WiS is a game feature, it should continue to be worked on. It shouldn't be worked on to the exclusion of everything else and I understand it isn't. It looks to an outsider as if it is currently the main thrust. The problems with FiS and other game mechanics have been with us for much longer and maybe they should be the main thrust instead for a time. Balance. Don't stop WiS development but downgrade it.
In my opinion, the reason this has come to a head is that the balance has been wrong for a number of years. I like the stuff CCP have been doing but I think it has been done in the wrong proportions. To correct a problem which has been rollercoasting along for that long will take some drastic action now, but it should be a temporary course correction. Don't consider any new features right now, focus on fixing existing content and iterating on shiny new content which was previously released. At a later stage, start to put some resources back into new features again. This I believe is the way to win back the respect of the players and see healthier trends in subscription numbers.
As for crowdsourcing, the most recent one was the first I had taken part in. I don't think anyone is selling it as being perfect, but it is a useful tool, which will become more useful if more people take part. Maybe I'm just thick but I had to read the voting instructions twice to figure out how it was being done. Keep this simple to get the best participation. We can all see how the crowdsourcing results can be skewed, CCP and the CSM can see that too. The results are just another feedback method for CCP to take into account in their decision making, not the sole one.
In summary, keep new features out of the picture until the problems with development focus are back on track, a bit less WiS (but not a complete halt), a bit more FiS (fixing long-established problems) and this game should continue to get better and better.
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Simetraz
State War Academy Caldari State
56
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Posted - 2011.09.26 13:31:00 -
[111] - Quote
Eli Strange wrote:I enjoyed your post, and I did +1 the post. However, I hope you mean that CCP will reprioritize FIS to the front, and not abandon WIS. I do think they have great potential in WIS, but I do agree that they need to shore up FIS before moving into the flashy content.
Then you shouldn't have +1 them. What I read was a general statement that didn't really say anything.
Not enough specifics there. Which basically invalids the entire thing sadly.
There going to go back to CCP with a general statement that says what ?
Capitals (Balancing and Roles) |
Ugleb
Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
8
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Posted - 2011.09.26 17:50:00 -
[112] - Quote
I gave a +1 but have a caveat to it.
CCP need to finish and deploy the first iteration of establishments. Too much effort has gone into Incarna already just to ditch it for the next year or more. Get the first deployment out, some multi-player environments and then let it settle for a deployment cycle with no major additions other than basic tweaks and fixes. Use that time to focus in on traditional EVE mechanics such as the sov system and FW. http://uglebsjournal.wordpress.com/ |
Ladie Scarlet
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
206
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Posted - 2011.09.26 19:30:00 -
[113] - Quote
Ugleb wrote:I gave a +1 but have a caveat to it.
CCP need to finish and deploy the first iteration of establishments. Ugh no they don't. Let them put all that roleplaying crap in the Twilight mmo. The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet. |
Scorpio Hollanda
Trojan Legion Rogue Empire.
1
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Posted - 2011.09.27 06:55:00 -
[114] - Quote
I know this horse has been beaten to death, resurrected and beaten to death again, but (you knew it was coming) we ought to do the same for botting? Shouldn't be too hard for CCP to find them, right? |
White Tree
Broski Federation Elite Space Guild
211
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Posted - 2011.09.27 12:32:00 -
[115] - Quote
Check out all these whineposts lmao.
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Vertisce Soritenshi
SHADOW WARD Tragedy.
38
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Posted - 2011.09.27 13:37:00 -
[116] - Quote
White Tree wrote:Check out all these whineposts lmao.
Oh look! Something constructive and useful from a CSM member! |
AFKCloaked AltSpy
MasterMined Technologies
13
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Posted - 2011.09.27 14:06:00 -
[117] - Quote
White Tree wrote:Check out all these whineposts lmao.
You do represent us after all. I hear that all time. So why don't you quit whining?
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Temulkar Blaine
Liberation Army BricK sQuAD.
10
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Posted - 2011.09.27 14:11:00 -
[118] - Quote
CSM call us whiners, CCP call us rabble, people are still logging off. The clock is still ticking, nothing has been achieved.
meh. |
Patch Gatsby
LightningStrikesTwice Elemental Tide
1
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Posted - 2011.09.27 16:17:00 -
[119] - Quote
December 20th is now CCPs drop dead date. If things aren't on a path to improvment on the existing content, then large numbers of subscribers will not have any reason not to give that "other" space MMO a chance. The Eve population may dip so low that even if people want to play there will be too few. The game could collapse in a matter of months. |
Erik Finnegan
Polytechnique Gallenteenne
9
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Posted - 2011.09.27 17:02:00 -
[120] - Quote
Some of the "whiners" may have misinterpreted the CSM statement. Problem with the statement is that the CSM is giving you to read what they intend to tell CCP; word by word. But language between players is different than language between CSM and CCP obligatorily has to be -- at least since the CSM talks to CCP's upper management.
I fear there is a language disconnect between the CSM and dear readers. Possibly the CSM should not have players vote on their exact texts, which they then take to CCP. CSM needs to address CCP in terms that CCP is likely to understand and let them influence CCP's position. But if gathering input from the players, maybe a different style of wording would be better understood -- while maintaining the sense of the whole message ?
Semantical tactics aside, I appreciate that the CSM continuously gathers opinion on a broad scale with a multitude of methods. |
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