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Razaelle	Posted - 2004.12.22 01:26:00 - [121] Originally by: Celt Eireson Hmmmmm unless I'm completely mistaken optimal range has no relationship whatsoever to tracking - increasing optimal will both extend range and increase average damage slightly for a given range, for a given set of skills and setup changing optimal will have no effect on missing due to tracking. The distance at which tracking becomes an issue is set based on skills and the gun tracking alone. False. The farthest the ennemy, the less tracking you need. You get a 15% bonus on optimal, so you can attack from 15% farthest and then hit more easely than before. And for lasers, you should not compare pulses with arties... pulses are the equivalent of autocannons, megabeams and tachs are the equivalent of arties. Have you tried to hit anything with tachs at short range recently ?
Razaelle	Posted - 2004.12.22 01:26:00 - [122] Originally by: Celt Eireson Hmmmmm unless I'm completely mistaken optimal range has no relationship whatsoever to tracking - increasing optimal will both extend range and increase average damage slightly for a given range, for a given set of skills and setup changing optimal will have no effect on missing due to tracking. The distance at which tracking becomes an issue is set based on skills and the gun tracking alone. False. The farthest the ennemy, the less tracking you need. You get a 15% bonus on optimal, so you can attack from 15% farthest and then hit more easely than before. And for lasers, you should not compare pulses with arties... pulses are the equivalent of autocannons, megabeams and tachs are the equivalent of arties. Have you tried to hit anything with tachs at short range recently ?
Nafri	Posted - 2004.12.22 01:37:00 - [123] Originally by: Razaelle Originally by: Celt Eireson Hmmmmm unless I'm completely mistaken optimal range has no relationship whatsoever to tracking - increasing optimal will both extend range and increase average damage slightly for a given range, for a given set of skills and setup changing optimal will have no effect on missing due to tracking. The distance at which tracking becomes an issue is set based on skills and the gun tracking alone. False. The farthest the ennemy, the less tracking you need. You get a 15% bonus on optimal, so you can attack from 15% farthest and then hit more easely than before. And for lasers, you should not compare pulses with arties... pulses are the equivalent of autocannons, megabeams and tachs are the equivalent of arties. Have you tried to hit anything with tachs at short range recently ? megapulses work from 5 to 60km Wanna fly with me?
Nafri	Posted - 2004.12.22 01:37:00 - [124] Originally by: Razaelle Originally by: Celt Eireson Hmmmmm unless I'm completely mistaken optimal range has no relationship whatsoever to tracking - increasing optimal will both extend range and increase average damage slightly for a given range, for a given set of skills and setup changing optimal will have no effect on missing due to tracking. The distance at which tracking becomes an issue is set based on skills and the gun tracking alone. False. The farthest the ennemy, the less tracking you need. You get a 15% bonus on optimal, so you can attack from 15% farthest and then hit more easely than before. And for lasers, you should not compare pulses with arties... pulses are the equivalent of autocannons, megabeams and tachs are the equivalent of arties. Have you tried to hit anything with tachs at short range recently ? megapulses work from 5 to 60km Wanna fly with me?
Nafri	Posted - 2004.12.22 01:46:00 - [125] Edited by: Nafri on 22/12/2004 02:19:35 Originally by: Razaelle Originally by: Celt Eireson Hmmmmm unless I'm completely mistaken optimal range has no relationship whatsoever to tracking - increasing optimal will both extend range and increase average damage slightly for a given range, for a given set of skills and setup changing optimal will have no effect on missing due to tracking. The distance at which tracking becomes an issue is set based on skills and the gun tracking alone. False. The farthest the ennemy, the less tracking you need. You get a 15% bonus on optimal, so you can attack from 15% farthest and then hit more easely than before. And for lasers, you should not compare pulses with arties... pulses are the equivalent of autocannons, megabeams and tachs are the equivalent of arties. Have you tried to hit anything with tachs at short range recently ? ohh and i forgot, atm megabeams on armas do 40% damage then any other long range gun Wanna fly with me?
Nafri	Posted - 2004.12.22 01:46:00 - [126] Edited by: Nafri on 22/12/2004 02:19:35 Originally by: Razaelle Originally by: Celt Eireson Hmmmmm unless I'm completely mistaken optimal range has no relationship whatsoever to tracking - increasing optimal will both extend range and increase average damage slightly for a given range, for a given set of skills and setup changing optimal will have no effect on missing due to tracking. The distance at which tracking becomes an issue is set based on skills and the gun tracking alone. False. The farthest the ennemy, the less tracking you need. You get a 15% bonus on optimal, so you can attack from 15% farthest and then hit more easely than before. And for lasers, you should not compare pulses with arties... pulses are the equivalent of autocannons, megabeams and tachs are the equivalent of arties. Have you tried to hit anything with tachs at short range recently ? ohh and i forgot, atm megabeams on armas do 40% damage then any other long range gun Wanna fly with me?
Razaelle	Posted - 2004.12.22 01:47:00 - [127] Originally by: Nafri Originally by: Razaelle Originally by: Celt Eireson Hmmmmm unless I'm completely mistaken optimal range has no relationship whatsoever to tracking - increasing optimal will both extend range and increase average damage slightly for a given range, for a given set of skills and setup changing optimal will have no effect on missing due to tracking. The distance at which tracking becomes an issue is set based on skills and the gun tracking alone. False. The farthest the ennemy, the less tracking you need. You get a 15% bonus on optimal, so you can attack from 15% farthest and then hit more easely than before. And for lasers, you should not compare pulses with arties... pulses are the equivalent of autocannons, megabeams and tachs are the equivalent of arties. Have you tried to hit anything with tachs at short range recently ? megapulses work from 5 to 60km Granted, megapulses are somewhat overpowered atm. But IMO this doesn't invalidate that arties and pulses are not sharing the same roles and thus should not be compared.
Razaelle	Posted - 2004.12.22 01:47:00 - [128] Originally by: Nafri Originally by: Razaelle Originally by: Celt Eireson Hmmmmm unless I'm completely mistaken optimal range has no relationship whatsoever to tracking - increasing optimal will both extend range and increase average damage slightly for a given range, for a given set of skills and setup changing optimal will have no effect on missing due to tracking. The distance at which tracking becomes an issue is set based on skills and the gun tracking alone. False. The farthest the ennemy, the less tracking you need. You get a 15% bonus on optimal, so you can attack from 15% farthest and then hit more easely than before. And for lasers, you should not compare pulses with arties... pulses are the equivalent of autocannons, megabeams and tachs are the equivalent of arties. Have you tried to hit anything with tachs at short range recently ? megapulses work from 5 to 60km Granted, megapulses are somewhat overpowered atm. But IMO this doesn't invalidate that arties and pulses are not sharing the same roles and thus should not be compared.
Anteract	Posted - 2004.12.22 01:50:00 - [129] This is whats wrong with projectiles... [ 2004.12.21 04:13:36 ] (combat) Your 720mm Howitzer Artillery I glances off Ruined Stargate, causing no real damage. Sitting still. Both of us.
Anteract	Posted - 2004.12.22 01:50:00 - [130] This is whats wrong with projectiles... [ 2004.12.21 04:13:36 ] (combat) Your 720mm Howitzer Artillery I glances off Ruined Stargate, causing no real damage. Sitting still. Both of us.
Razaelle	Posted - 2004.12.22 01:53:00 - [131] Originally by: Nafri Originally by: Razaelle Originally by: Celt Eireson Hmmmmm unless I'm completely mistaken optimal range has no relationship whatsoever to tracking - increasing optimal will both extend range and increase average damage slightly for a given range, for a given set of skills and setup changing optimal will have no effect on missing due to tracking. The distance at which tracking becomes an issue is set based on skills and the gun tracking alone. False. The farthest the ennemy, the less tracking you need. You get a 15% bonus on optimal, so you can attack from 15% farthest and then hit more easely than before. And for lasers, you should not compare pulses with arties... pulses are the equivalent of autocannons, megabeams and tachs are the equivalent of arties. Have you tried to hit anything with tachs at short range recently ? ohh and i forgot, atm megapules on armas do 40% damage then any other long range gun I don't agree with this one... If you use megapulse for long range, you use low-damage crystals. You then get less damage than real long-range guns. I rather prefer using rails for this job.
Razaelle	Posted - 2004.12.22 01:53:00 - [132] Originally by: Nafri Originally by: Razaelle Originally by: Celt Eireson Hmmmmm unless I'm completely mistaken optimal range has no relationship whatsoever to tracking - increasing optimal will both extend range and increase average damage slightly for a given range, for a given set of skills and setup changing optimal will have no effect on missing due to tracking. The distance at which tracking becomes an issue is set based on skills and the gun tracking alone. False. The farthest the ennemy, the less tracking you need. You get a 15% bonus on optimal, so you can attack from 15% farthest and then hit more easely than before. And for lasers, you should not compare pulses with arties... pulses are the equivalent of autocannons, megabeams and tachs are the equivalent of arties. Have you tried to hit anything with tachs at short range recently ? ohh and i forgot, atm megapules on armas do 40% damage then any other long range gun I don't agree with this one... If you use megapulse for long range, you use low-damage crystals. You then get less damage than real long-range guns. I rather prefer using rails for this job.
Razaelle	Posted - 2004.12.22 01:57:00 - [133] Originally by: Anteract This is whats wrong with projectiles... [ 2004.12.21 04:13:36 ] (combat) Your 720mm Howitzer Artillery I glances off Ruined Stargate, causing no real damage. Sitting still. Both of us. At optimal range ?
Razaelle	Posted - 2004.12.22 01:57:00 - [134] Originally by: Anteract This is whats wrong with projectiles... [ 2004.12.21 04:13:36 ] (combat) Your 720mm Howitzer Artillery I glances off Ruined Stargate, causing no real damage. Sitting still. Both of us. At optimal range ?
Nafri	Posted - 2004.12.22 02:19:00 - [135] Originally by: Razaelle Originally by: Nafri Originally by: Razaelle Originally by: Celt Eireson Hmmmmm unless I'm completely mistaken optimal range has no relationship whatsoever to tracking - increasing optimal will both extend range and increase average damage slightly for a given range, for a given set of skills and setup changing optimal will have no effect on missing due to tracking. The distance at which tracking becomes an issue is set based on skills and the gun tracking alone. False. The farthest the ennemy, the less tracking you need. You get a 15% bonus on optimal, so you can attack from 15% farthest and then hit more easely than before. And for lasers, you should not compare pulses with arties... pulses are the equivalent of autocannons, megabeams and tachs are the equivalent of arties. Have you tried to hit anything with tachs at short range recently ? ohh and i forgot, atm megapules on armas do 40% damage then any other long range gun I don't agree with this one... If you use megapulse for long range, you use low-damage crystals. You then get less damage than real long-range guns. I rather prefer using rails for this job. ups wanted to say megabeams no megapules do something about 200% more damage on their optimal range Wanna fly with me?
Nafri	Posted - 2004.12.22 02:19:00 - [136] Originally by: Razaelle Originally by: Nafri Originally by: Razaelle Originally by: Celt Eireson Hmmmmm unless I'm completely mistaken optimal range has no relationship whatsoever to tracking - increasing optimal will both extend range and increase average damage slightly for a given range, for a given set of skills and setup changing optimal will have no effect on missing due to tracking. The distance at which tracking becomes an issue is set based on skills and the gun tracking alone. False. The farthest the ennemy, the less tracking you need. You get a 15% bonus on optimal, so you can attack from 15% farthest and then hit more easely than before. And for lasers, you should not compare pulses with arties... pulses are the equivalent of autocannons, megabeams and tachs are the equivalent of arties. Have you tried to hit anything with tachs at short range recently ? ohh and i forgot, atm megapules on armas do 40% damage then any other long range gun I don't agree with this one... If you use megapulse for long range, you use low-damage crystals. You then get less damage than real long-range guns. I rather prefer using rails for this job. ups wanted to say megabeams no megapules do something about 200% more damage on their optimal range Wanna fly with me?
Nafri	Posted - 2004.12.22 02:20:00 - [137] Originally by: Razaelle Originally by: Nafri Originally by: Razaelle Originally by: Celt Eireson Hmmmmm unless I'm completely mistaken optimal range has no relationship whatsoever to tracking - increasing optimal will both extend range and increase average damage slightly for a given range, for a given set of skills and setup changing optimal will have no effect on missing due to tracking. The distance at which tracking becomes an issue is set based on skills and the gun tracking alone. False. The farthest the ennemy, the less tracking you need. You get a 15% bonus on optimal, so you can attack from 15% farthest and then hit more easely than before. And for lasers, you should not compare pulses with arties... pulses are the equivalent of autocannons, megabeams and tachs are the equivalent of arties. Have you tried to hit anything with tachs at short range recently ? megapulses work from 5 to 60km Granted, megapulses are somewhat overpowered atm. But IMO this doesn't invalidate that arties and pulses are not sharing the same roles and thus should not be compared. thy need to get compared, when megapules do more damage then 1400er on the 1400er optimal range something is wrong Wanna fly with me?
Nafri	Posted - 2004.12.22 02:20:00 - [138] Originally by: Razaelle Originally by: Nafri Originally by: Razaelle Originally by: Celt Eireson Hmmmmm unless I'm completely mistaken optimal range has no relationship whatsoever to tracking - increasing optimal will both extend range and increase average damage slightly for a given range, for a given set of skills and setup changing optimal will have no effect on missing due to tracking. The distance at which tracking becomes an issue is set based on skills and the gun tracking alone. False. The farthest the ennemy, the less tracking you need. You get a 15% bonus on optimal, so you can attack from 15% farthest and then hit more easely than before. And for lasers, you should not compare pulses with arties... pulses are the equivalent of autocannons, megabeams and tachs are the equivalent of arties. Have you tried to hit anything with tachs at short range recently ? megapulses work from 5 to 60km Granted, megapulses are somewhat overpowered atm. But IMO this doesn't invalidate that arties and pulses are not sharing the same roles and thus should not be compared. thy need to get compared, when megapules do more damage then 1400er on the 1400er optimal range something is wrong Wanna fly with me?
j0sephine	Posted - 2004.12.22 02:36:00 - [139] "This is whats wrong with projectiles... [ 2004.12.21 04:13:36 ] (combat) Your 720mm Howitzer Artillery I glances off Ruined Stargate, causing no real damage. Sitting still. Both of us." Ohh, that looks like half of my log when i put the large blasters on the scorpion \o/ (optimal, non-optimal, station, indy, moving, sitting still.. no matter the combination, hits jack sh.t. Been like this since forever...)
j0sephine	Posted - 2004.12.22 02:36:00 - [140] "This is whats wrong with projectiles... [ 2004.12.21 04:13:36 ] (combat) Your 720mm Howitzer Artillery I glances off Ruined Stargate, causing no real damage. Sitting still. Both of us." Ohh, that looks like half of my log when i put the large blasters on the scorpion \o/ (optimal, non-optimal, station, indy, moving, sitting still.. no matter the combination, hits jack sh.t. Been like this since forever...)
Elenia Kheynes	Posted - 2004.12.22 02:43:00 - [141] The projectile "unnerf" is a good thing. However it seems that atm armageddons are still "a bit" overpowered. It would be nice to reballance this in order to have a greater variety of battleships in battles. (yes I'm thinking about the new CA fleet which switched from dual mwd ravens to arma ^^) Each ship should have its advantages, no ship should be superior to all the others in pvp. But we're on the good way atm I think. Dear friendly customer... Can I have your money ?
Elenia Kheynes	Posted - 2004.12.22 02:43:00 - [142] The projectile "unnerf" is a good thing. However it seems that atm armageddons are still "a bit" overpowered. It would be nice to reballance this in order to have a greater variety of battleships in battles. (yes I'm thinking about the new CA fleet which switched from dual mwd ravens to arma ^^) Each ship should have its advantages, no ship should be superior to all the others in pvp. But we're on the good way atm I think. Dear friendly customer... Can I have your money ?
Hobbsalong	Posted - 2004.12.22 04:46:00 - [143] I still believe that howies need some tracking love.. They deal enough dmg when they hit. KEYWORD = when
Hobbsalong	Posted - 2004.12.22 04:46:00 - [144] I still believe that howies need some tracking love.. They deal enough dmg when they hit. KEYWORD = when
ElCoCo	Posted - 2004.12.22 09:13:00 - [145] Don't you think howitzers should have a higher chance of doing a wrecking hit, given the nature of the gun and their bad bad ROF? Oh and what josh said about hybrids using more cap than lazerzzzzzzzzzzz
ElCoCo	Posted - 2004.12.22 09:13:00 - [146] Don't you think howitzers should have a higher chance of doing a wrecking hit, given the nature of the gun and their bad bad ROF? Oh and what josh said about hybrids using more cap than lazerzzzzzzzzzzz
Helmut 314	Posted - 2004.12.22 10:36:00 - [147] Why start yapping about lasers and hybrids ? Im very happy that CCP are trying to fix the broken brother among the weapon types. I hope they succeed. And apropos the hybrids, it cant be that bad, since you dont see many Megathrons fitting lasers because the hybrids do too little damage, do you ? Thats what it was like before the laser change, people fitted hybrids on their Apocs because lasers did too little damage.... ___________________________________ Trying is the first step of failure - Homer J Simpson
Helmut 314	Posted - 2004.12.22 10:36:00 - [148] Why start yapping about lasers and hybrids ? Im very happy that CCP are trying to fix the broken brother among the weapon types. I hope they succeed. And apropos the hybrids, it cant be that bad, since you dont see many Megathrons fitting lasers because the hybrids do too little damage, do you ? Thats what it was like before the laser change, people fitted hybrids on their Apocs because lasers did too little damage.... ___________________________________ Trying is the first step of failure - Homer J Simpson
Arthur Guinness	Posted - 2004.12.22 11:03:00 - [149] Originally by: Helmut 314 Why start yapping about lasers and hybrids ? Im very happy that CCP are trying to fix the broken brother among the weapon types. I hope they succeed. Because laser are a tad overpowered now? Originally by: Helmut 314 And apropos the hybrids, it cant be that bad, since you dont see many Megathrons fitting lasers because the hybrids do too little damage, do you ? Thats what it was like before the laser change, people fitted hybrids on their Apocs because lasers did too little damage.... You can only effectively use lasers on amarr ships, because of the cap. And lasers do outdmg hybrids in almost all pvp situations. What you do forget is that a) cap reduction bonus changed from 5% to 10%! causing lasers to use less cap on amarr ships than hybrids do. b) that laser dmg got uped c) that laser have the best tracking (more and better hits = hihger dot) So i do think the way for balance will be to get lasers a bit down, while upping projs dmg trough ship boni and tweaking hybrids a bit. As for the current proj fix. Seems to work ok for a bit of pvp, the tempest is reduced to a long range shield tank atm tough (HP changes). For npcing the tempest with artys is not really viable, as npcs do not have a sig radius penalty for the mwd. and i kinda feel as if an apoc with tachs still out dmgs a tempest with 1400, under 100km. Artys need slightly better tracking, and the minnnie ship dmg boni should be upped to 7.5%.
Arthur Guinness	Posted - 2004.12.22 11:03:00 - [150] Originally by: Helmut 314 Why start yapping about lasers and hybrids ? Im very happy that CCP are trying to fix the broken brother among the weapon types. I hope they succeed. Because laser are a tad overpowered now? Originally by: Helmut 314 And apropos the hybrids, it cant be that bad, since you dont see many Megathrons fitting lasers because the hybrids do too little damage, do you ? Thats what it was like before the laser change, people fitted hybrids on their Apocs because lasers did too little damage.... You can only effectively use lasers on amarr ships, because of the cap. And lasers do outdmg hybrids in almost all pvp situations. What you do forget is that a) cap reduction bonus changed from 5% to 10%! causing lasers to use less cap on amarr ships than hybrids do. b) that laser dmg got uped c) that laser have the best tracking (more and better hits = hihger dot) So i do think the way for balance will be to get lasers a bit down, while upping projs dmg trough ship boni and tweaking hybrids a bit. As for the current proj fix. Seems to work ok for a bit of pvp, the tempest is reduced to a long range shield tank atm tough (HP changes). For npcing the tempest with artys is not really viable, as npcs do not have a sig radius penalty for the mwd. and i kinda feel as if an apoc with tachs still out dmgs a tempest with 1400, under 100km. Artys need slightly better tracking, and the minnnie ship dmg boni should be upped to 7.5%.

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