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Arthur Guinness
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Posted - 2004.12.22 13:25:00 -
[181]
Edited by: Arthur Guinness on 22/12/2004 13:26:55
 Originally by: Discorporation
Edited by: Discorporation on 22/12/2004 12:29:37
Originally by: Arthur Guinness
Which is why laser need a tracking nerf ;)
Only the Mega Pulse laser. The rest are perfectly fine.
Not really, mega beams and even tachs are doing ok at less than 10km... they shouldn't.
1400mm Artys have problems at less than 20km.
It all needs to be tweaked. I am not asking for halfing laser tracking, but all weapons of the same class (same dmg/range) should have about the same tracking.
425mm rail -> 0.009625rad/sec with 48km optimal + 24km falloff
mega beam -> 0.0153125rad/sec with 40km optimal + 16km falloff
1400mm arty -> 0.009rad/sec with 40km optimal+ 35km falloff
Tachyon -> 0.0139205 with 44km optimal + 20km falloff
see the problem?
1400mm arty got slightly better falloff, but just a bit more than half the tracking speed.
1400mm's need 0.01. keep in mind the 425mm on megathron will have about 0.012rad/sec tracking with better optimal range, a tad less falloff tough.
Imo these numbers of tracking vs range clearly show that either lasers track to good, or the other guns to bad. |
Arthur Guinness
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Posted - 2004.12.22 13:25:00 -
[182]
Edited by: Arthur Guinness on 22/12/2004 13:26:55
Originally by: Discorporation
Edited by: Discorporation on 22/12/2004 12:29:37
Originally by: Arthur Guinness
Which is why laser need a tracking nerf ;)
Only the Mega Pulse laser. The rest are perfectly fine.
Not really, mega beams and even tachs are doing ok at less than 10km... they shouldn't.
1400mm Artys have problems at less than 20km.
It all needs to be tweaked. I am not asking for halfing laser tracking, but all weapons of the same class (same dmg/range) should have about the same tracking.
425mm rail -> 0.009625rad/sec with 48km optimal + 24km falloff
mega beam -> 0.0153125rad/sec with 40km optimal + 16km falloff
1400mm arty -> 0.009rad/sec with 40km optimal+ 35km falloff
Tachyon -> 0.0139205 with 44km optimal + 20km falloff
see the problem?
1400mm arty got slightly better falloff, but just a bit more than half the tracking speed.
1400mm's need 0.01. keep in mind the 425mm on megathron will have about 0.012rad/sec tracking with better optimal range, a tad less falloff tough.
Imo these numbers of tracking vs range clearly show that either lasers track to good, or the other guns to bad. |
Grim Vandal
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Posted - 2004.12.22 13:26:00 -
[183]
Originally by: Celt Eireson
Well aware that upping the distance will reduce the amount of tracking you need, but at a fixed distance changing the optimal won't affect misses due to tracking i.e. if your ship is missing a lot due to tracking when firing at a range of 60km upping the optimal from say 40km to 50km won't reduce misses due to tracking if your ship stays at that range, hmmmm if that makes sense.
wrong... 
Greetings Grim |
Grim Vandal
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Posted - 2004.12.22 13:26:00 -
[184]
Originally by: Celt Eireson
Well aware that upping the distance will reduce the amount of tracking you need, but at a fixed distance changing the optimal won't affect misses due to tracking i.e. if your ship is missing a lot due to tracking when firing at a range of 60km upping the optimal from say 40km to 50km won't reduce misses due to tracking if your ship stays at that range, hmmmm if that makes sense.
wrong...
Greetings Grim |
Discorporation
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Posted - 2004.12.22 13:30:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Zhuge Liang
I just splurted tea all over my screen. 
Stop looking at **** then ;/
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Discorporation
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Posted - 2004.12.22 13:30:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Zhuge Liang
I just splurted tea all over my screen.
Stop looking at **** then ;/
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Kay Rissa
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Posted - 2004.12.22 14:05:00 -
[187]
Stop wining about nerfing lazers
Amar ships do not have damage bonuses like Mega and Tempest + 25%
Megapulse is a short range weapon - with radio at 60km it does like 100-150 dmg per shot only (without resists). They have the highest fitting requirements - they were nerfed for a very long long long time. Now they finally turned in to something that found it's way in to actual gameplay. They are unnerfing Projects, Rails are probably next. What the hell is wrong with you people let us ask for further improvements not cutting down what we were fighting for to be improved previously.
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Kay Rissa
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Posted - 2004.12.22 14:05:00 -
[188]
Stop wining about nerfing lazers
Amar ships do not have damage bonuses like Mega and Tempest + 25%
Megapulse is a short range weapon - with radio at 60km it does like 100-150 dmg per shot only (without resists). They have the highest fitting requirements - they were nerfed for a very long long long time. Now they finally turned in to something that found it's way in to actual gameplay. They are unnerfing Projects, Rails are probably next. What the hell is wrong with you people let us ask for further improvements not cutting down what we were fighting for to be improved previously.
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Arthur Guinness
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Posted - 2004.12.22 14:13:00 -
[189]
Originally by: Kay Rissa
Stop wining about nerfing lazers
We ask for tweaks not for a nerf. Maybe this time ccp will manage todo this.
Originally by: Kay Rissa
Amar ships do not have damage bonuses like Mega and Tempest + 25%
Megapulse is a short range weapon - with radio at 60km it does like 100-150 dmg per shot only (without resists). They have the highest fitting requirements - they were nerfed for a very long long long time. Now they finally turned in to something that found it's way in to actual gameplay. They are unnerfing Projects, Rails are probably next. What the hell is wrong with you people let us ask for further improvements not cutting down what we were fighting for to be improved previously.
Mega pulse are over powered, compared to their ships, compared to their fittings. They will need _ONE_ stat reduced, most likely range.
What should happen now, is that _ALL_ guns and their ships are being looked at.
There wont be a "fix for projectiles" that would be useless.
There'll be need for adjustments to several modules, maybe even ships.
And this will have to be done by Hammerhead together with Tomb, taking the ship hp changes into account. |
Arthur Guinness
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Posted - 2004.12.22 14:13:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Kay Rissa
Stop wining about nerfing lazers
We ask for tweaks not for a nerf. Maybe this time ccp will manage todo this.
Originally by: Kay Rissa
Amar ships do not have damage bonuses like Mega and Tempest + 25%
Megapulse is a short range weapon - with radio at 60km it does like 100-150 dmg per shot only (without resists). They have the highest fitting requirements - they were nerfed for a very long long long time. Now they finally turned in to something that found it's way in to actual gameplay. They are unnerfing Projects, Rails are probably next. What the hell is wrong with you people let us ask for further improvements not cutting down what we were fighting for to be improved previously.
Mega pulse are over powered, compared to their ships, compared to their fittings. They will need _ONE_ stat reduced, most likely range.
What should happen now, is that _ALL_ guns and their ships are being looked at.
There wont be a "fix for projectiles" that would be useless.
There'll be need for adjustments to several modules, maybe even ships.
And this will have to be done by Hammerhead together with Tomb, taking the ship hp changes into account. |
Kay Rissa
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Posted - 2004.12.22 14:46:00 -
[191]
How can you further reduce a range for a megapulse? Range with Multi lens which can do some damage now without trackers is 16-15 km. Do not forget that lazer optimal is what actually written ON the gun it is not like proj or rail which is optimal + faloff. Raven can tank 2 arma's or apocs with ease what the hell are you talking about if you can not outfit your ship to tank 2 types of damage it is your problem. People invest skills in to lasers like you did in projectiles so what now we are all supposed to fly Ravens again? Bah - do whatever you want I will still find the best combination to kill you without Arma or Apoc or Raven - I will fight in a suicide shuttle mwhahaha =)))
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Kay Rissa
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Posted - 2004.12.22 14:46:00 -
[192]
How can you further reduce a range for a megapulse? Range with Multi lens which can do some damage now without trackers is 16-15 km. Do not forget that lazer optimal is what actually written ON the gun it is not like proj or rail which is optimal + faloff. Raven can tank 2 arma's or apocs with ease what the hell are you talking about if you can not outfit your ship to tank 2 types of damage it is your problem. People invest skills in to lasers like you did in projectiles so what now we are all supposed to fly Ravens again? Bah - do whatever you want I will still find the best combination to kill you without Arma or Apoc or Raven - I will fight in a suicide shuttle mwhahaha =)))
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BlueSmok
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Posted - 2004.12.22 14:51:00 -
[193]
Edited by: BlueSmok on 22/12/2004 14:51:15
The Changes sound awsome, I choose Minmatar race for Roleplay reasons and only use their ships. I'm glad CCP hasn't forgotten the underdogs. I only make one request in addition to the proposed changes. Would it be possible to throw in additional warp distances greater than 60km? Currently with the 1400's I get my best shots around 80-60km. The extra distance would allow me lock time for those pesky frigates.
Keep the fight alive!
*Laws to suppress tend to strengthen what they would prohibit. This is the fine point on which all the legal professions of history have based their job security.
Bene Gesserit Coda |
BlueSmok
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Posted - 2004.12.22 14:51:00 -
[194]
Edited by: BlueSmok on 22/12/2004 14:51:15
The Changes sound awsome, I choose Minmatar race for Roleplay reasons and only use their ships. I'm glad CCP hasn't forgotten the underdogs. I only make one request in addition to the proposed changes. Would it be possible to throw in additional warp distances greater than 60km? Currently with the 1400's I get my best shots around 80-60km. The extra distance would allow me lock time for those pesky frigates.
Keep the fight alive!
*Laws to suppress tend to strengthen what they would prohibit. This is the fine point on which all the legal professions of history have based their job security.
Bene Gesserit Coda |
Proconsul Para
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Posted - 2004.12.22 15:00:00 -
[195]
I really doubt that tracking here and damage there is the answer we projectile users were waiting for.
The whole mathematical equation behind them is borked and inconsistent.
For instance:
- going head-on with the target should account for bigger transversal velocity, as opposed to trailing or being trailed by a target at roughly the same speed. But lo and behold, I get more consistent hits in a head-on encounter then when I'm "kiting".
- tracking computers should improve the chance to hit. They may be doing so, but in a weird way. I can put more 1400mm hits on a frigate at optimal + a few km after switching off my tracking module.
- missing a station with at least 10% of the shots, while sitting still at optimal, is just wrong.
And come on DEVs, can't u just take pairs of people with the same skill-point spread in gunnery and spaceship command, of different races, fabricate some targets and let 'em all shoot for a coupla hours? U'd get a nice database with percentage of hits, dot and whatever. I'll volunteer.
Shield Inversion works best at lighting cigarettes in windy weather.
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Proconsul Para
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Posted - 2004.12.22 15:00:00 -
[196]
I really doubt that tracking here and damage there is the answer we projectile users were waiting for.
The whole mathematical equation behind them is borked and inconsistent.
For instance:
- going head-on with the target should account for bigger transversal velocity, as opposed to trailing or being trailed by a target at roughly the same speed. But lo and behold, I get more consistent hits in a head-on encounter then when I'm "kiting".
- tracking computers should improve the chance to hit. They may be doing so, but in a weird way. I can put more 1400mm hits on a frigate at optimal + a few km after switching off my tracking module.
- missing a station with at least 10% of the shots, while sitting still at optimal, is just wrong.
And come on DEVs, can't u just take pairs of people with the same skill-point spread in gunnery and spaceship command, of different races, fabricate some targets and let 'em all shoot for a coupla hours? U'd get a nice database with percentage of hits, dot and whatever. I'll volunteer.
Shield Inversion works best at lighting cigarettes in windy weather.
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Countessa
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Posted - 2004.12.22 15:07:00 -
[197]
Originally by: Proconsul Para
I really doubt that tracking here and damage there is the answer we projectile users were waiting for.
The whole mathematical equation behind them is borked and inconsistent.
For instance:
- going head-on with the target should account for bigger transversal velocity, as opposed to trailing or being trailed by a target at roughly the same speed. But lo and behold, I get more consistent hits in a head-on encounter then when I'm "kiting".
- tracking computers should improve the chance to hit. They may be doing so, but in a weird way. I can put more 1400mm hits on a frigate at optimal + a few km after switching off my tracking module.
- missing a station with at least 10% of the shots, while sitting still at optimal, is just wrong.
And come on DEVs, can't u just take pairs of people with the same skill-point spread in gunnery and spaceship command, of different races, fabricate some targets and let 'em all shoot for a coupla hours? U'd get a nice database with percentage of hits, dot and whatever. I'll volunteer.
I agree whole heartedly. I would also agree too sit shooting targets collecting data for such a test.
Also please make Tempests lock range longer as atm its the shortest range with aprently the longest guns ???
I think its at least better then nothing but what has Eve come too when changes occur and even though it doesnt look like they will fix the problem every1 is just glad that its a start ???
Arties need tracking boost they can do semi decent damage atm just cant actually hit anything :/
Please make the changes asap but allow us all too continue too moan cos we cant hit anything :)
Berneh > im gonna **** myself blind in a sec, im just printing a pic of siobhan then im off to bed
SuperJonny > lolz
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Countessa
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Posted - 2004.12.22 15:07:00 -
[198]
Originally by: Proconsul Para
I really doubt that tracking here and damage there is the answer we projectile users were waiting for.
The whole mathematical equation behind them is borked and inconsistent.
For instance:
- going head-on with the target should account for bigger transversal velocity, as opposed to trailing or being trailed by a target at roughly the same speed. But lo and behold, I get more consistent hits in a head-on encounter then when I'm "kiting".
- tracking computers should improve the chance to hit. They may be doing so, but in a weird way. I can put more 1400mm hits on a frigate at optimal + a few km after switching off my tracking module.
- missing a station with at least 10% of the shots, while sitting still at optimal, is just wrong.
And come on DEVs, can't u just take pairs of people with the same skill-point spread in gunnery and spaceship command, of different races, fabricate some targets and let 'em all shoot for a coupla hours? U'd get a nice database with percentage of hits, dot and whatever. I'll volunteer.
I agree whole heartedly. I would also agree too sit shooting targets collecting data for such a test.
Also please make Tempests lock range longer as atm its the shortest range with aprently the longest guns ???
I think its at least better then nothing but what has Eve come too when changes occur and even though it doesnt look like they will fix the problem every1 is just glad that its a start ???
Arties need tracking boost they can do semi decent damage atm just cant actually hit anything :/
Please make the changes asap but allow us all too continue too moan cos we cant hit anything :)
Berneh > im gonna **** myself blind in a sec, im just printing a pic of siobhan then im off to bed
SuperJonny > lolz
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Arthur Guinness
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Posted - 2004.12.22 15:15:00 -
[199]
Originally by: Kay Rissa
How can you further reduce a range for a megapulse? Range with Multi lens which can do some damage now without trackers is 16-15 km. Do not forget that lazer optimal is what actually written ON the gun it is not like proj or rail which is optimal + faloff. Raven can tank 2 arma's or apocs with ease what the hell are you talking about if you can not outfit your ship to tank 2 types of damage it is your problem. People invest skills in to lasers like you did in projectiles so what now we are all supposed to fly Ravens again? Bah - do whatever you want I will still find the best combination to kill you without Arma or Apoc or Raven - I will fight in a suicide shuttle mwhahaha =)))
Compare mega pulse to the autocannons and blasters and you're more on target.
If you compare them to those guns you see that something is wrong.
As for me being biased because of training time..... i can fly every bs in game, with lvl4 bs skills. I do fly all bs except the gallente ones.
I do have all L turrets at lvl4, so give me a break.
I use different ships with their races weapon and i think i do see that somethings wrong. |
Arthur Guinness
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Posted - 2004.12.22 15:15:00 -
[200]
Originally by: Kay Rissa
How can you further reduce a range for a megapulse? Range with Multi lens which can do some damage now without trackers is 16-15 km. Do not forget that lazer optimal is what actually written ON the gun it is not like proj or rail which is optimal + faloff. Raven can tank 2 arma's or apocs with ease what the hell are you talking about if you can not outfit your ship to tank 2 types of damage it is your problem. People invest skills in to lasers like you did in projectiles so what now we are all supposed to fly Ravens again? Bah - do whatever you want I will still find the best combination to kill you without Arma or Apoc or Raven - I will fight in a suicide shuttle mwhahaha =)))
Compare mega pulse to the autocannons and blasters and you're more on target.
If you compare them to those guns you see that something is wrong.
As for me being biased because of training time..... i can fly every bs in game, with lvl4 bs skills. I do fly all bs except the gallente ones.
I do have all L turrets at lvl4, so give me a break.
I use different ships with their races weapon and i think i do see that somethings wrong. |
Solant
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Posted - 2004.12.22 15:55:00 -
[201]
Originally by: Discorporation
15% more damage = one less Gyro. Fit a T II Tracking mod and vila, Roflpwns.
Umm, do you actually fly Minmatar? Fitting a T II Tracking mod doesn't solve our tracking problems. If it did, we would have one in place of a Gyro regardless.
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Solant
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Posted - 2004.12.22 15:55:00 -
[202]
Originally by: Discorporation
15% more damage = one less Gyro. Fit a T II Tracking mod and vila, Roflpwns.
Umm, do you actually fly Minmatar? Fitting a T II Tracking mod doesn't solve our tracking problems. If it did, we would have one in place of a Gyro regardless.
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Kay Rissa
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Posted - 2004.12.22 16:03:00 -
[203]
If you have all skills on average 4th level no wonder you can't see advantages of different weapons.
I have a friend who started trainig gallente all the way I did the same with ammarr (ships and weapons) I've never seen him complain about his Mega-T with 5th level gallente BS and 9mln in gunnery using T2 425mm. I'm sure that a lot of ppl invested skills in to Projectiles and I am happy to see that they are about to be boosted. But I am competly against any type of nurfing of anything. Just boost the counter measure to whatever is too powerful and not nurf.
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Kay Rissa
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Posted - 2004.12.22 16:03:00 -
[204]
If you have all skills on average 4th level no wonder you can't see advantages of different weapons.
I have a friend who started trainig gallente all the way I did the same with ammarr (ships and weapons) I've never seen him complain about his Mega-T with 5th level gallente BS and 9mln in gunnery using T2 425mm. I'm sure that a lot of ppl invested skills in to Projectiles and I am happy to see that they are about to be boosted. But I am competly against any type of nurfing of anything. Just boost the counter measure to whatever is too powerful and not nurf.
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Armaki Kalear
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Posted - 2004.12.22 16:28:00 -
[205]
Originally by: CCP Hammer
...By the way, I just gave autocannons 20% better tracking, artilleries 15% more damage and optimal range and howitzers 15% more damage on the test server. Ya mon, let's see if this fixes projectiles.
*looks around from TomB* 
--
Top 5 corporation improvements as requested by CEOÆs |
Armaki Kalear
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Posted - 2004.12.22 16:28:00 -
[206]
Originally by: CCP Hammer
...By the way, I just gave autocannons 20% better tracking, artilleries 15% more damage and optimal range and howitzers 15% more damage on the test server. Ya mon, let's see if this fixes projectiles.
*looks around from TomB*
--
Top 5 corporation improvements as requested by CEOÆs |
Zu Lu
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Posted - 2004.12.22 16:46:00 -
[207]
It's great that the Devs are doing something about the imbalance but I don't think i will be using Minmatar ships again anytime soon.
Most Minmatar ships, in my experience are flawed from their low hp, having worst tracking but fastest ships, lower amount of weapons to benefit from ship bonuses in comparison to other races and their low damaging/ammo capacity weapons.
With the newer ships (since inties) it has got worse i think Taranis>Claw Deimos>Muninn etc. Due to CCP deciding that projectiles dont need a ship bonus % advantage over hybrids etc to be even near par  
It has been said before but Minmatar ships' versatility is their downfall. They are faster than other races but inferior in every other way and I have found everything i can do with a minmatar ship i can do a better job with another races'.
With regards to the Temepest with 1400's, the damage increase may be nice but tracking will still be very poor and shield tanked tempest is possibly the weakest viable defence on any ship not including Ganka<insertshipnamehere>. Why use a Temest for mid to long range when other ships damage is same-better plus they are capable of much better defence and weapons are much less bother to use....
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Zu Lu
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Posted - 2004.12.22 16:46:00 -
[208]
It's great that the Devs are doing something about the imbalance but I don't think i will be using Minmatar ships again anytime soon.
Most Minmatar ships, in my experience are flawed from their low hp, having worst tracking but fastest ships, lower amount of weapons to benefit from ship bonuses in comparison to other races and their low damaging/ammo capacity weapons.
With the newer ships (since inties) it has got worse i think Taranis>Claw Deimos>Muninn etc. Due to CCP deciding that projectiles dont need a ship bonus % advantage over hybrids etc to be even near par
It has been said before but Minmatar ships' versatility is their downfall. They are faster than other races but inferior in every other way and I have found everything i can do with a minmatar ship i can do a better job with another races'.
With regards to the Temepest with 1400's, the damage increase may be nice but tracking will still be very poor and shield tanked tempest is possibly the weakest viable defence on any ship not including Ganka<insertshipnamehere>. Why use a Temest for mid to long range when other ships damage is same-better plus they are capable of much better defence and weapons are much less bother to use....
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Siddy
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Posted - 2004.12.22 17:13:00 -
[209]
2004.12.22 17:09:39combatYour 1400mm Gallium I Cannon perfectly strikes Guristas Usurper, wrecking for 1106.8 damage. 
i didint think thees were possible anymore
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Siddy
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Posted - 2004.12.22 17:13:00 -
[210]
2004.12.22 17:09:39combatYour 1400mm Gallium I Cannon perfectly strikes Guristas Usurper, wrecking for 1106.8 damage.
i didint think thees were possible anymore
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