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MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2004.12.22 11:26:00 - [151] Originally by: "siddy" now im going to ask - HOW hard was it to introduce thees changes... err 3 MONTHs earlier? dem wuzz jammin' y'kno Mai's Idealog
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2004.12.22 11:26:00 - [152] Originally by: "siddy" now im going to ask - HOW hard was it to introduce thees changes... err 3 MONTHs earlier? dem wuzz jammin' y'kno Mai's Idealog
Hardin	Posted - 2004.12.22 12:03:00 - [153] Originally by: Arthur Guinness Originally by: Helmut 314 Why start yapping about lasers and hybrids ? Im very happy that CCP are trying to fix the broken brother among the weapon types. I hope they succeed. Because laser are a tad overpowered now? Originally by: Helmut 314 And apropos the hybrids, it cant be that bad, since you dont see many Megathrons fitting lasers because the hybrids do too little damage, do you ? Thats what it was like before the laser change, people fitted hybrids on their Apocs because lasers did too little damage.... You can only effectively use lasers on amarr ships, because of the cap. And lasers do outdmg hybrids in almost all pvp situations. What you do forget is that a) cap reduction bonus changed from 5% to 10%! causing lasers to use less cap on amarr ships than hybrids do. b) that laser dmg got uped c) that laser have the best tracking (more and better hits = hihger dot) So i do think the way for balance will be to get lasers a bit down, while upping projs dmg trough ship boni and tweaking hybrids a bit. Erm...how do lasers outdamage in PvP situations? Lasers only do two damage types and every half intelligent pilot in the game makes sure they are hardened for that damage when going into PvP. At least with missiles/hybrids and projectiles you can pick and choose your ammo to do different damage types. BTW CCP good work on boosting projectiles. It was demoralising having to blow up lovely Amarrian ships flown by Minmatar terrorists. Maybe now they will get back into their rustbuckets
Hardin	Posted - 2004.12.22 12:03:00 - [154] Originally by: Arthur Guinness Originally by: Helmut 314 Why start yapping about lasers and hybrids ? Im very happy that CCP are trying to fix the broken brother among the weapon types. I hope they succeed. Because laser are a tad overpowered now? Originally by: Helmut 314 And apropos the hybrids, it cant be that bad, since you dont see many Megathrons fitting lasers because the hybrids do too little damage, do you ? Thats what it was like before the laser change, people fitted hybrids on their Apocs because lasers did too little damage.... You can only effectively use lasers on amarr ships, because of the cap. And lasers do outdmg hybrids in almost all pvp situations. What you do forget is that a) cap reduction bonus changed from 5% to 10%! causing lasers to use less cap on amarr ships than hybrids do. b) that laser dmg got uped c) that laser have the best tracking (more and better hits = hihger dot) So i do think the way for balance will be to get lasers a bit down, while upping projs dmg trough ship boni and tweaking hybrids a bit. Erm...how do lasers outdamage in PvP situations? Lasers only do two damage types and every half intelligent pilot in the game makes sure they are hardened for that damage when going into PvP. At least with missiles/hybrids and projectiles you can pick and choose your ammo to do different damage types. BTW CCP good work on boosting projectiles. It was demoralising having to blow up lovely Amarrian ships flown by Minmatar terrorists. Maybe now they will get back into their rustbuckets
Hakera	Posted - 2004.12.22 12:09:00 - [155] Originally by: Hardin Erm...how do lasers outdamage in PvP situations? because they have a higher DoT - just compare the base crystal damage against projectiles. Quote: Lasers only do two damage types and every half intelligent pilot in the game makes sure they are hardened for that damage when going into PvP. lasers use no ammo, with the HP increase, ammo will become an important factor in who wins as well as the reload time, as 20 sec to reload every 140 secs decreases your DoT by 20-30%. Quote: At least with missiles/hybrids and projectiles you can pick and choose your ammo to do different damage types. are there not two launcher slots on your apoc? Quote: BTW CCP good work on boosting projectiles. It was demoralising having to blow up lovely Amarrian ships flown by Minmatar terrorists. Maybe now they will get back into their rustbuckets not quite - with no tracking on the artilleries, we still wont hit for **** but something is better than nothing at all. Dumbledore - Eve-I.com
Hakera	Posted - 2004.12.22 12:09:00 - [156] Originally by: Hardin Erm...how do lasers outdamage in PvP situations? because they have a higher DoT - just compare the base crystal damage against projectiles. Quote: Lasers only do two damage types and every half intelligent pilot in the game makes sure they are hardened for that damage when going into PvP. lasers use no ammo, with the HP increase, ammo will become an important factor in who wins as well as the reload time, as 20 sec to reload every 140 secs decreases your DoT by 20-30%. Quote: At least with missiles/hybrids and projectiles you can pick and choose your ammo to do different damage types. are there not two launcher slots on your apoc? Quote: BTW CCP good work on boosting projectiles. It was demoralising having to blow up lovely Amarrian ships flown by Minmatar terrorists. Maybe now they will get back into their rustbuckets not quite - with no tracking on the artilleries, we still wont hit for **** but something is better than nothing at all. Dumbledore - Eve-I.com
Discorporation	Posted - 2004.12.22 12:15:00 - [157] Originally by: Hakera because they have a higher DoT - just compare the base crystal damage against projectiles. True Originally by: Hakera lasers use no ammo, with the HP increase, ammo will become an important factor in who wins as well as the reload time, as 20 sec to reload every 140 secs decreases your DoT by 20-30%. TomB has stated in his original Blog that ammo sizes and possible magazine sizes will be adjusted to compensate for battles lasting longer. Not a good argument Originally by: Hakera not quite - with no tracking on the artilleries, we still wont hit for **** but something is better than nothing at all. Increased Damage mod is actually a better option then tracking. The DoT will increase, making those hits you do get count even more. The Artilery and Howitzer tracking will stay like it is, since adding more tracking will make them vastly superior to all other guns (which was why the 1400mms got nerfed in the first place). [Heterocephalus glaber]
Discorporation	Posted - 2004.12.22 12:15:00 - [158] Originally by: Hakera because they have a higher DoT - just compare the base crystal damage against projectiles. True Originally by: Hakera lasers use no ammo, with the HP increase, ammo will become an important factor in who wins as well as the reload time, as 20 sec to reload every 140 secs decreases your DoT by 20-30%. TomB has stated in his original Blog that ammo sizes and possible magazine sizes will be adjusted to compensate for battles lasting longer. Not a good argument Originally by: Hakera not quite - with no tracking on the artilleries, we still wont hit for **** but something is better than nothing at all. Increased Damage mod is actually a better option then tracking. The DoT will increase, making those hits you do get count even more. The Artilery and Howitzer tracking will stay like it is, since adding more tracking will make them vastly superior to all other guns (which was why the 1400mms got nerfed in the first place). [Heterocephalus glaber]
Arthur Guinness	Posted - 2004.12.22 12:17:00 - [159] It does have todo a lot with the fittings too. An armor tanked apoc pulse apoc will out range and out dmg and out cap a 800mm tempest. A shield tanked apoc with 7 tachs (yes you got the cap for shield tanking an apoc, it works nicely) will out dmg, out cap a shield tanked tempest with 6x 1400mm's. I do know RP wise, minnie are not supposed to tank, they're supposed to jump in, kill and run. They simply lack the damage for that tough, maybe a higher dmg bonus or a 7th turret slots would solve that for the tempest.
Arthur Guinness	Posted - 2004.12.22 12:17:00 - [160] It does have todo a lot with the fittings too. An armor tanked apoc pulse apoc will out range and out dmg and out cap a 800mm tempest. A shield tanked apoc with 7 tachs (yes you got the cap for shield tanking an apoc, it works nicely) will out dmg, out cap a shield tanked tempest with 6x 1400mm's. I do know RP wise, minnie are not supposed to tank, they're supposed to jump in, kill and run. They simply lack the damage for that tough, maybe a higher dmg bonus or a 7th turret slots would solve that for the tempest.
Arthur Guinness	Posted - 2004.12.22 12:18:00 - [161] Originally by: Discorporation Originally by: Hakera not quite - with no tracking on the artilleries, we still wont hit for **** but something is better than nothing at all. Increased Damage mod is actually a better option then tracking. The DoT will increase, making those hits you do get count even more. The Artilery and Howitzer tracking will stay like it is, since adding more tracking will make them vastly superior to all other guns (which was why the 1400mms got nerfed in the first place). Which is why laser need a tracking nerf ;)
Arthur Guinness	Posted - 2004.12.22 12:18:00 - [162] Originally by: Discorporation Originally by: Hakera not quite - with no tracking on the artilleries, we still wont hit for **** but something is better than nothing at all. Increased Damage mod is actually a better option then tracking. The DoT will increase, making those hits you do get count even more. The Artilery and Howitzer tracking will stay like it is, since adding more tracking will make them vastly superior to all other guns (which was why the 1400mms got nerfed in the first place). Which is why laser need a tracking nerf ;)
Hakera	Posted - 2004.12.22 12:20:00 - [163] Originally by: Discorporation TomB has stated in his original Blog that ammo sizes and possible magazine sizes will be adjusted to compensate for battles lasting longer. Not a good argument nevertheless, reload does decrease DoT, now if it stays the same and we must reload, every 140 seconds or 280 seconds, its still a big factor in DoT consideration, not to mention the fact it takes 20 sec if we must switch ammo due to a hardned target. Add to that the few seconds it takes to pull up the reload menu. Quote: Increased Damage mod is actually a better option then tracking. The DoT will increase, making those hits you do get count even more. The Artilery and Howitzer tracking will stay like it is, since adding more tracking will make them vastly superior to all other guns (which was why the 1400mms got nerfed in the first place). all well & true, but we still must hit in order to cause damage. Dumbledore - Eve-I.com
Hakera	Posted - 2004.12.22 12:20:00 - [164] Originally by: Discorporation TomB has stated in his original Blog that ammo sizes and possible magazine sizes will be adjusted to compensate for battles lasting longer. Not a good argument nevertheless, reload does decrease DoT, now if it stays the same and we must reload, every 140 seconds or 280 seconds, its still a big factor in DoT consideration, not to mention the fact it takes 20 sec if we must switch ammo due to a hardned target. Add to that the few seconds it takes to pull up the reload menu. Quote: Increased Damage mod is actually a better option then tracking. The DoT will increase, making those hits you do get count even more. The Artilery and Howitzer tracking will stay like it is, since adding more tracking will make them vastly superior to all other guns (which was why the 1400mms got nerfed in the first place). all well & true, but we still must hit in order to cause damage. Dumbledore - Eve-I.com
Discorporation	Posted - 2004.12.22 12:26:00 - [165] Edited by: Discorporation on 22/12/2004 12:29:37 Originally by: Arthur Guinness Which is why laser need a tracking nerf ;) Only the Mega Pulse laser. The rest are perfectly fine. [Heterocephalus glaber]
Discorporation	Posted - 2004.12.22 12:26:00 - [166] Edited by: Discorporation on 22/12/2004 12:29:37 Originally by: Arthur Guinness Which is why laser need a tracking nerf ;) Only the Mega Pulse laser. The rest are perfectly fine. [Heterocephalus glaber]
Discorporation	Posted - 2004.12.22 12:29:00 - [167] Originally by: Hakera nevertheless, reload does decrease DoT, now if it stays the same and we must reload, every 140 seconds or 280 seconds, its still a big factor in DoT consideration, not to mention the fact it takes 20 sec if we must switch ammo due to a hardned target. Add to that the few seconds it takes to pull up the reload menu. That's why thy're looking at decreasing ammo volumes Originally by: Hakera all well & true, but we still must hit in order to cause damage. 15% more damage = one less Gyro. Fit a T II Tracking mod and vila, Roflpwns. Or, alternatively, use 800mms on a closerange tempest and shoot the poo out of anything. [Heterocephalus glaber]
Discorporation	Posted - 2004.12.22 12:29:00 - [168] Originally by: Hakera nevertheless, reload does decrease DoT, now if it stays the same and we must reload, every 140 seconds or 280 seconds, its still a big factor in DoT consideration, not to mention the fact it takes 20 sec if we must switch ammo due to a hardned target. Add to that the few seconds it takes to pull up the reload menu. That's why thy're looking at decreasing ammo volumes Originally by: Hakera all well & true, but we still must hit in order to cause damage. 15% more damage = one less Gyro. Fit a T II Tracking mod and vila, Roflpwns. Or, alternatively, use 800mms on a closerange tempest and shoot the poo out of anything. [Heterocephalus glaber]
Nafri	Posted - 2004.12.22 12:34:00 - [169] Originally by: Hardin Originally by: Arthur Guinness Originally by: Helmut 314 Why start yapping about lasers and hybrids ? Im very happy that CCP are trying to fix the broken brother among the weapon types. I hope they succeed. Because laser are a tad overpowered now? Originally by: Helmut 314 And apropos the hybrids, it cant be that bad, since you dont see many Megathrons fitting lasers because the hybrids do too little damage, do you ? Thats what it was like before the laser change, people fitted hybrids on their Apocs because lasers did too little damage.... You can only effectively use lasers on amarr ships, because of the cap. And lasers do outdmg hybrids in almost all pvp situations. What you do forget is that a) cap reduction bonus changed from 5% to 10%! causing lasers to use less cap on amarr ships than hybrids do. b) that laser dmg got uped c) that laser have the best tracking (more and better hits = hihger dot) So i do think the way for balance will be to get lasers a bit down, while upping projs dmg trough ship boni and tweaking hybrids a bit. Erm...how do lasers outdamage in PvP situations? Lasers only do two damage types and every half intelligent pilot in the game makes sure they are hardened for that damage when going into PvP. At least with missiles/hybrids and projectiles you can pick and choose your ammo to do different damage types. BTW CCP good work on boosting projectiles. It was demoralising having to blow up lovely Amarrian ships flown by Minmatar terrorists. Maybe now they will get back into their rustbuckets same goes for Hybrid guns, which have worser Tracking and worser ROF, Hybrids take Cap to fire and thy are extremly hard to fit megabeams have 0.25 better Damage mod, and fire 0.56 seconds faster and you can fit 7 of them on a amarr ship while still tanking it megabeams on geddons do 40% more damage then 425er on megathron, which is a tier2 BS and only 7% less then siege launchers with cruise missles so its clearly shown that amarr ships outdamage nearly everything else on the battlefield Wanna fly with me?
Nafri	Posted - 2004.12.22 12:34:00 - [170] Originally by: Hardin Originally by: Arthur Guinness Originally by: Helmut 314 Why start yapping about lasers and hybrids ? Im very happy that CCP are trying to fix the broken brother among the weapon types. I hope they succeed. Because laser are a tad overpowered now? Originally by: Helmut 314 And apropos the hybrids, it cant be that bad, since you dont see many Megathrons fitting lasers because the hybrids do too little damage, do you ? Thats what it was like before the laser change, people fitted hybrids on their Apocs because lasers did too little damage.... You can only effectively use lasers on amarr ships, because of the cap. And lasers do outdmg hybrids in almost all pvp situations. What you do forget is that a) cap reduction bonus changed from 5% to 10%! causing lasers to use less cap on amarr ships than hybrids do. b) that laser dmg got uped c) that laser have the best tracking (more and better hits = hihger dot) So i do think the way for balance will be to get lasers a bit down, while upping projs dmg trough ship boni and tweaking hybrids a bit. Erm...how do lasers outdamage in PvP situations? Lasers only do two damage types and every half intelligent pilot in the game makes sure they are hardened for that damage when going into PvP. At least with missiles/hybrids and projectiles you can pick and choose your ammo to do different damage types. BTW CCP good work on boosting projectiles. It was demoralising having to blow up lovely Amarrian ships flown by Minmatar terrorists. Maybe now they will get back into their rustbuckets same goes for Hybrid guns, which have worser Tracking and worser ROF, Hybrids take Cap to fire and thy are extremly hard to fit megabeams have 0.25 better Damage mod, and fire 0.56 seconds faster and you can fit 7 of them on a amarr ship while still tanking it megabeams on geddons do 40% more damage then 425er on megathron, which is a tier2 BS and only 7% less then siege launchers with cruise missles so its clearly shown that amarr ships outdamage nearly everything else on the battlefield Wanna fly with me?
Nafri	Posted - 2004.12.22 12:35:00 - [171] Edited by: Nafri on 22/12/2004 12:36:04 Originally by: Discorporation Edited by: Discorporation on 22/12/2004 12:29:37 Originally by: Arthur Guinness Which is why laser need a tracking nerf ;) Only the Mega Pulse laser. The rest are perfectly fine. no, look at my post 1400er AND 425er are both underpowered atm, compared to megabeams ohh and only the range of megapulses is fubared, not the damage Wanna fly with me?
Nafri	Posted - 2004.12.22 12:35:00 - [172] Edited by: Nafri on 22/12/2004 12:36:04 Originally by: Discorporation Edited by: Discorporation on 22/12/2004 12:29:37 Originally by: Arthur Guinness Which is why laser need a tracking nerf ;) Only the Mega Pulse laser. The rest are perfectly fine. no, look at my post 1400er AND 425er are both underpowered atm, compared to megabeams ohh and only the range of megapulses is fubared, not the damage Wanna fly with me?
Discorporation	Posted - 2004.12.22 13:00:00 - [173] Originally by: Nafri no, look at my post 1400er AND 425er are both underpowered atm, compared to megabeams ohh and only the range of megapulses is fubared, not the damage I didn't see your post [Heterocephalus glaber]
Discorporation	Posted - 2004.12.22 13:00:00 - [174] Originally by: Nafri no, look at my post 1400er AND 425er are both underpowered atm, compared to megabeams ohh and only the range of megapulses is fubared, not the damage I didn't see your post [Heterocephalus glaber]
Riggwelter	Posted - 2004.12.22 13:00:00 - [175] Originally by: Celt Eireson Hmmmmm unless I'm completely mistaken optimal range has no relationship whatsoever to tracking - increasing optimal will both extend range and increase average damage slightly for a given range, for a given set of skills and setup changing optimal will have no effect on missing due to tracking. The distance at which tracking becomes an issue is set based on skills and the gun tracking alone. However optimal range also has impacts on damage output so we may actually be able to hit things at optimal range and do decent damage to them rather than hitting them above optimal and doing rubbish damage. They who shout the loudest normally have the least to say.
Riggwelter	Posted - 2004.12.22 13:00:00 - [176] Originally by: Celt Eireson Hmmmmm unless I'm completely mistaken optimal range has no relationship whatsoever to tracking - increasing optimal will both extend range and increase average damage slightly for a given range, for a given set of skills and setup changing optimal will have no effect on missing due to tracking. The distance at which tracking becomes an issue is set based on skills and the gun tracking alone. However optimal range also has impacts on damage output so we may actually be able to hit things at optimal range and do decent damage to them rather than hitting them above optimal and doing rubbish damage. They who shout the loudest normally have the least to say.
Zhuge Liang	Posted - 2004.12.22 13:13:00 - [177] Originally by: Jack Ryan It's Hammer time! I just splurted tea all over my screen. ZhuuÀ gheyÀleeÀyan (Kongming)
Zhuge Liang	Posted - 2004.12.22 13:13:00 - [178] Originally by: Jack Ryan It's Hammer time! I just splurted tea all over my screen. ZhuuÀ gheyÀleeÀyan (Kongming)
Celt Eireson	Posted - 2004.12.22 13:20:00 - [179] Originally by: Razaelle Originally by: Celt Eireson Hmmmmm unless I'm completely mistaken optimal range has no relationship whatsoever to tracking - increasing optimal will both extend range and increase average damage slightly for a given range, for a given set of skills and setup changing optimal will have no effect on missing due to tracking. The distance at which tracking becomes an issue is set based on skills and the gun tracking alone. False. The farthest the ennemy, the less tracking you need. You get a 15% bonus on optimal, so you can attack from 15% farthest and then hit more easely than before. Well aware that upping the distance will reduce the amount of tracking you need, but at a fixed distance changing the optimal won't affect misses due to tracking i.e. if your ship is missing a lot due to tracking when firing at a range of 60km upping the optimal from say 40km to 50km won't reduce misses due to tracking if your ship stays at that range, hmmmm if that makes sense.
Celt Eireson	Posted - 2004.12.22 13:20:00 - [180] Originally by: Razaelle Originally by: Celt Eireson Hmmmmm unless I'm completely mistaken optimal range has no relationship whatsoever to tracking - increasing optimal will both extend range and increase average damage slightly for a given range, for a given set of skills and setup changing optimal will have no effect on missing due to tracking. The distance at which tracking becomes an issue is set based on skills and the gun tracking alone. False. The farthest the ennemy, the less tracking you need. You get a 15% bonus on optimal, so you can attack from 15% farthest and then hit more easely than before. Well aware that upping the distance will reduce the amount of tracking you need, but at a fixed distance changing the optimal won't affect misses due to tracking i.e. if your ship is missing a lot due to tracking when firing at a range of 60km upping the optimal from say 40km to 50km won't reduce misses due to tracking if your ship stays at that range, hmmmm if that makes sense.

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