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Mashie Saldana BFG Tech	Posted - 2010.08.09 12:24:00 - [421] What is up with all the tears in this thread? I almost get the feeling half of you people have been ganked transporting PLEX.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2010.08.09 12:34:00 - [422] Originally by: Cailais Is it morally right to accept payment for a service you know you may not have to provide according to the rules you yourself have established? CCP provided the service: two PLEX items. CCP's obligation to the purchaser (whether purchased from CCP directly or from a third party) of the GTC has been completed. The fact that the PLEX owner decided it wold be a better use of his PLEXes to suicide them into a waiting gank instead of applying them to his account does not magically give CCP extra obligations here. Quote: The moral question in this case is should CCP have implemented its current mechanism rather than an alternative mechanism? WHY should CCP have implemented an alternative mechanism? It is already 100% risk-free to use a PLEX or GTC. The ability to do potentially dangerous things with your PLEXes is optional. By this reasoning, CCP should also have implemented a different method for selling them. After all, what's the difference between losing your PLEXes by getting your ship destroyed and losing your PLEXes by selling them too cheaply on the market? Perhaps CCP should have made it impossible to sell a PLEX for less than 95% of the average market price? -----------
Bixx Styxx	Posted - 2010.08.09 12:40:00 - [423] My cat's breath smells of cat food.
Sarina Berghil Minmatar New Zion Judge Advocate	Posted - 2010.08.09 12:47:00 - [424] Originally by: Merin Ryskin By this reasoning, CCP should also have implemented a different method for selling them. After all, what's the difference between losing your PLEXes by getting your ship destroyed and losing your PLEXes by selling them too cheaply on the market? Perhaps CCP should have made it impossible to sell a PLEX for less than 95% of the average market price? One difference is that if the PLEX gets destroyed CCP is the only one benefiting from the outcome, while the player base takes the loss. That even means that CCP has a stake in the outcome of the battle. CCP would benefit from a specific side winning. With the trade example, the real life cash balance is neutral, no money entered or exited the system.
Cailais Amarr THE ORDAINED	Posted - 2010.08.09 12:49:00 - [425] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Cailais Is it morally right to accept payment for a service you know you may not have to provide according to the rules you yourself have established? CCP provided the service: two PLEX items. CCP's obligation to the purchaser (whether purchased from CCP directly or from a third party) of the GTC has been completed. The fact that the PLEX owner decided it wold be a better use of his PLEXes to suicide them into a waiting gank instead of applying them to his account does not magically give CCP extra obligations here. Quote: The moral question in this case is should CCP have implemented its current mechanism rather than an alternative mechanism? WHY should CCP have implemented an alternative mechanism? It is already 100% risk-free to use a PLEX or GTC. The ability to do potentially dangerous things with your PLEXes is optional. By this reasoning, CCP should also have implemented a different method for selling them. After all, what's the difference between losing your PLEXes by getting your ship destroyed and losing your PLEXes by selling them too cheaply on the market? Perhaps CCP should have made it impossible to sell a PLEX for less than 95% of the average market price? I think its debatable that CCP have fulfilled their obligations, they haven't supplied anyone with any game time as a result of a plex loss - the primary service they provide. Your second point is fine - if I sell a plex to cheaply that's my own stupid fault: but the player who receives it still gets game time once converted to a GTC. I have zero issue with the ISK loss: my issue is that the Game Time itself is lost - game time that was purchased by someone, at some stage. CCP was paid for that potential Game Time and now no longer has to provide it. Is that right? the hydrostatic capsule blog
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2010.08.09 13:05:00 - [426] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 09/08/2010 13:05:51 Originally by: Cailais I have zero issue with the ISK loss: my issue is that the Game Time itself is lost - game time that was purchased by someone, at some stage. CCP was paid for that potential Game Time and now no longer has to provide it. Game time was not purchased, *two PLEXes* were purchased. CCP has provided the item that the purchaser of the GTC chose to purchase (by their choice of the PLEX redemption option for their GTC). How the player then uses those PLEXes is up to that player. One possible use of a PLEX is converting it into 30 days of game time. Another possible use of a PLEX is to stupidly take it out of station in an un-tanked T1 frigate and get it destroyed. Personally, I prefer the first option, but the second option exists for those players who wish to use it. But really, lost game time isn't a very compelling argument anyway. If I buy a GTC, convert it into PLEXes, and they are destroyed with my ship, I have "lost" 60 days of game time. If I buy a GTC, apply it to my account, and then decide not to log into EVE for two months, I have "lost" 60 days of game time. If I buy a GTC, convert it into PLEXes, then sell those PLEXes to a player who then quits the game (and deletes their characters) before using them, someone has "lost" game time that CCP does not have to provide. Why is only one of these situations a "problem"? -----------
Illwill Bill Raven Dynasty Reloaded LLC	Posted - 2010.08.09 13:09:00 - [427] Originally by: Cailais Is that right? This game is as close as you get to having a game called "Capitalism online", yet you, as well as many others, complain about CCP being greedy? Forgive me, if I find this amusing; the irony is simply to great! As pointed out in a previous post, the paying customer has already received what he/she paid for, and the one person who lost the plex did so, because he/she took a risk that was not neccesary. There is a completely safe way of trading game time for ISK in this game; scams are not allowed in the Timecode bazaar. When you convert a GTC to two in-game items, you accept that those in-game items are subjects to the rules of the game. This includes the risk of scamming, and destruction. The person purchasing a plex with ISK is not a paying customer, and is merely purchasing an in-game item for in-game currency. This item can be converted to game time; however, should this person decide to move the item, it can be destroyed, stolen, or otherwise nullified, according to the rules of the game. Undocking a ship with 74 plexes is not an act of a poor student that wants to finance his gaming with the ISK he makes during game time; it obviously a person that trades plexes. As such this person took the risk of undocking with 22 billion ISK worth of items in his cargohold, and as it turned out, that was a very bad move. Once again, congratulations 0rphans. You performed one of the coolest assasinations I have ever seen in this game.
Franga Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams	Posted - 2010.08.09 13:13:00 - [428] Originally by: Bixx Styxx My cat's breath smells of cat food.
Kerdrak Big Guns Inc. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.09 13:15:00 - [429] Acording to my killboard, I have killed almost 150b isk. That isk could have been invested in plexes that could have been added to people's accounts. People that could be spinning their ships in a safe station right now... But the damage is already done Please, people of EVE: NEVER UNDOCK! the isk is getting destroyed! EVERYDAY! ________________________________________
Ivon Strom	Posted - 2010.08.09 13:18:00 - [430] lol, this has been a hot topic in IRC. It's hilarious; how god damn stupid do you have to be to undock WHILE AT WAR and not check local. I guess we should also demand all ingame items be treated like Plexs USE to be treated since well..I sell Plexs and use the ISK to buy ingame items. So...all you industrial people guess you'll have to figure out how to get those fresh T2 munitions to market since you can't take them out of the storage facility/NPC Station. Oh! and while we're at it why don't we make 0.5 and higher a no-pvp zone. Oh heck, why don't we just get rid of that ol' pvp thing all together. This game clearly needs to be WoW-ized. You don't like how CCP is running things...LEAVE* *and don't let the door hit your arse on the way out.

Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.08.09 13:31:00 - [431] Originally by: Cap II Edited by: Cap II on 09/08/2010 09:50:10 I've never at any point suggested that any of us own anything related to this game infact i've stated the opposite outright. I've also stated that this lack of ownership does not mean that we cannot buy or sell these goods. Just to point out the obvious: what you do not own, you can not sell. You CAN agree with someone that he gives you X $, and you give him X ISK. Though this looks like a sale, it realy is not. First of all, the rules prohibit this and clearly state that all in-game items, including ISK, is the property of CCP. For you to sell that for $ you would have to steal it. You can not steal it, therefore you can not sell it. Tho it is a subtle difference, you sold your 'used in-game time' to someone, represented by ISK in this case. Ownership never changed, just the 'right' to use it. Quote: And if you could go ahead and tell me what the difference between "perceived" value and real value is i'm all ears. This ties into opportunity cost. Whatever someone is willing to part with for an X amount of ISK is the percieved (by the 'buyer') value at that moment. It's not a real value tho, I can not go to Wallstreet and buy shares with my ISK, however much I have. I could break all the rules, find someone who is willing to exchange ISK for $, make an agreement with him and hand over ISK in return for $'s, and then go back to Wallstreet, but that is not the same. If you can find me someone, not playing EVE, not into RMT, that would want to give you $ for ISK, please let me know. This illustrates the difference between percieved and real value I think. Quote: Of course you don't have to take my word for any of this, just ask CCP. They have all sorts of rules in the EULA about how ISK selling is illegal and whatnot. If ISK selling doesn't happen as you and Mr. One-extra-chromosome up there would have me believe then why does CCP have rules against it? Why do we have that little "report isk seller" button for a circumstance that you claim doesn't exist? TBH, that's a part of the EULA that need rewriting, as it is clearly stated in the rules that you do not own anything in-game. CCP is the sole owner. It would be quite difficult to create a readable ruleset that takes legal issues into account on this matter. To keep things simple, terminology we know is being used, giving people a warped sense of what takes place. You are right on your opportunity cost example, but that applies different to each and every individual, and thus does NOT create real value. It creates a choice. The choice does impact your wallet in some cases. Not the supposed value of the ISK. You are right tho, it's hair splitting. Much needed hair splitting tho, with all the flawed arguements floating around about how $$$ got destroyed by this gank. ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
0oO0oOoOo0o	Posted - 2010.08.09 13:35:00 - [432] Let's pretend, the PLEX did survive and the person who destroyed the ship with the PLEX took possession of the PLEX. a) The PLEX is a contractual obligation, which is bound to and represented by the PLEX software. b) This contractual obligation is an valuable asset and can be subject of internet crime (fraud, theft, robbery). c) This value previously belonged to the victim (the victim could turn them into a 30d subscription), after the incident they belong to the perpetrator (who now can turn them into the 30d). Definition robbery: Robbery is the crime of taking or attempting to take something of value by force or threat of force and/or by putting the victim in fear. At common law, robbery is defined as taking the property of another, with the intent to permanently deprive the person of that property, by means of force or fear. Definition theft: In criminal law, theft is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent. You can chose which of the crimes were committed. Note: the victim did not agree in being robbed/scammed/stolen from. CCP can't make a criminal offence legally valid by contractual agreements. By offering a platform and opportunity to commit that kind of internet crime, CCP could be convicted of enabling and promoting internet criminality, if such a case is brought up to a criminal court.
Cailais Amarr THE ORDAINED	Posted - 2010.08.09 13:36:00 - [433] Originally by: Merin Ryskin If I buy a GTC, convert it into PLEXes, and they are destroyed with my ship, I have "lost" 60 days of game time. And CCP has to provide what as a result? - Nothing. Originally by: Merin Ryskin If I buy a GTC, apply it to my account, and then decide not to log into EVE for two months, I have "lost" 60 days of game time. CCP is still providing access to its service, it just so happens that isnt used in this instance but thats a value judgement on the part of the buyer. Originally by: Merin Ryskin If I buy a GTC, convert it into PLEXes, then sell those PLEXes to a player who then quits the game (and deletes their characters) before using them, someone has "lost" game time that CCP does not have to provide. Again it would still has to potentially provide those services. In example 2 and 3 CCP still has the potential to be required to honour its half of the deal. Once the plex is destroyed that requirement has gone. It is of course a question of relative value. A player may chose not to utilise the PLEX for game time (quit, not log on etc) in which case CCP has gotten a good deal. But the likelihood of that occurring is no different to someone who has subbed for an account. With the PLEX CCP is working on the expectation that it will be paid for doing absolutely nothing. In fact its has hard wired into the game a higher % chance that this will indeed be the case. Now you can argue for all eternity that it wasn't game time but two plexes that were purchased but from my perspective that is being pedantic and arguing over a description when we both know perfectly well that a PLEX is, to all intents and purposes, an ISK trade able form of the game time code. By making a PLEX destroyable CCP have explicitly factored in a source of revenue that they do not have to recompense with game time. I, personally, find that disturbing although I understand the logic of it from a business perspective. C. the hydrostatic capsule blog
Jitaholic	Posted - 2010.08.09 13:39:00 - [434] Massively covered this. http://www.massively.com/2010/08/08/eve-player-destroys-over-1000-worth-of-game-time/ Have to agree with: Quote: Perhaps the real winner here is CCP, who was paid for $1,295 worth of game time that can never be redeemed.
uNtOldPAIN Minmatar Covert-Nexus	Posted - 2010.08.09 13:39:00 - [435] CCP has nothing to do with this... The guy took a risk and took them out of dock. He got popped and the Plexs popped. All I see are people crying cause they didn't get it and saying that CCP got $$. Who cares. What's next? OMG the faction item that was on that ship popped CCP made out/foul! The item wasn't yours and still wont be. Don't undock with a plex in your cargo hold. Don't cry like a baby when it pops and you didn't get it.
Cailais Amarr THE ORDAINED	Posted - 2010.08.09 13:43:00 - [436] Originally by: uNtOldPAIN CCP has nothing to do with this... With the exception of enabling it to occur in the first place. Apart from that you're right they're not involved. C. the hydrostatic capsule blog
Lena Planeswalker IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.08.09 13:44:00 - [437] Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o Let's pretend, the PLEX did survive and the person who destroyed the ship with the PLEX took possession of the PLEX. a) The PLEX is a contractual obligation, which is bound to and represented by the PLEX software. b) This contractual obligation is an valuable asset and can be subject of internet crime (fraud, theft, robbery). c) This value previously belonged to the victim (the victim could turn them into a 30d subscription), after the incident they belong to the perpetrator (who now can turn them into the 30d). Definition robbery: Robbery is the crime of taking or attempting to take something of value by force or threat of force and/or by putting the victim in fear. At common law, robbery is defined as taking the property of another, with the intent to permanently deprive the person of that property, by means of force or fear. Definition theft: In criminal law, theft is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent. You can chose which of the crimes were committed. Note: the victim did not agree in being robbed/scammed/stolen from. CCP can't make a criminal offence legally valid by contractual agreements. By offering a platform and opportunity to commit that kind of internet crime, CCP could be convicted of enabling and promoting internet criminality, if such a case is brought up to a criminal court. a) wrong b) wrong and c) also wrong You can't mix rl legal systems into this however much you want as the simple fact remains all items etc ingame are property of CCP and hence cannot change hands in a legal or illegal way which makes your points about robbery and theft null and void. Same goes for every single other argument the naysayers have conjured up. The only thing you can argue is that plexes are destroyed and CCP gets free money which at most is unethical or immoral but in no way shape or form illegal. didn't like that sig anyways...
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2010.08.09 13:52:00 - [438] The whining and crying in the thread, from him and his alliance mates is awesome. So much fail, I really didn't think it possible on this level. Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
Cailais Amarr THE ORDAINED	Posted - 2010.08.09 13:56:00 - [439] Originally by: Mag's The whining and crying in the thread, from him and his alliance mates is awesome. So much fail, I really didn't think it possible on this level. Ive only done a quick run through but cant see any posts from the victims alliance or corp? Who are you referring too? C. the hydrostatic capsule blog
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:00:00 - [440] Originally by: Cailais Originally by: Mag's The whining and crying in the thread, from him and his alliance mates is awesome. So much fail, I really didn't think it possible on this level. Ive only done a quick run through but cant see any posts from the victims alliance or corp? Who are you referring too? C. You must be new to the Eveonline forums..... welcome. Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.

Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:02:00 - [441] Originally by: Mag's You must be new to the Eveonline forums..... welcome. There is this thing about assumption being the mother of all farkups... assuming all people whining here are alts of said alliance is bordering on being plain stupid. ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:08:00 - [442] Originally by: Ressiv Originally by: Mag's You must be new to the Eveonline forums..... welcome. There is this thing about assumption being the mother of all farkups... assuming all people whining here are alts of said alliance is bordering on being plain stupid. You need to point to where, I said all the whining was from them. What was that about being stupid? Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:09:00 - [443] Originally by: Mag's You need to point to where, I said all the whining was from them. What was that about being stupid? Please forgive me for generalising in the same way you just did. Can I have a copy of the alt list you seem to have ? ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
Exordium8 Minmatar Hell's Horsemen HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:10:00 - [444] Originally by: CCP EULA Your Account, and ALL ATTRIBUTES OF YOUR ACCOUNT, including all corporations, actions, groups, titles and characters, and ALL OBJECTS, CURRENCY AND ITEMS acquired, developed or delivered by or to characters as a result of play through your Accounts, are the SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE PROPERTY OF CCP I don't see what the issue is. There's all this talk about contracts and such. The fact is when you bought the game you signed a legally binding agreement stating all in-game items are CCP's. Not some, all. Without exception. Everything. Not everything but PLEXs. Every single item in the database. The minute the code is redeemed, it becomes an in-game item. Thus CCP's. Yes, it sucks, but it was his choice. --------------------------------- Pillage, then burn. Everything is air-droppable at least once. There is no 'overkill.' There is only 'open fire' and 'time to reload.
Cailais Amarr THE ORDAINED	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:16:00 - [445] Originally by: Mag's Originally by: Ressiv Originally by: Mag's You must be new to the Eveonline forums..... welcome. There is this thing about assumption being the mother of all farkups... assuming all people whining here are alts of said alliance is bordering on being plain stupid. You need to point to where, I said all the whining was from them. What was that about being stupid? I cant see that much whining, most seem to approve of it. Its a bit like the mythical carebear whines that everyone talks of but tend to be in the absolute minority. Personally Im very much in favour of personal loss in game - without it EVE wouldnt be the game that it is. Im less enamoured of CCP profiteering without any noticeable effort on their part and I think in this specific case its a mechanic that is bordering upon the unethical. Had the guy lost 22billion in implants Id be the first to be slapping 0rphanage on the back for a job well done. C. the hydrostatic capsule blog
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:16:00 - [446] Originally by: Ressiv Originally by: Mag's You need to point to where, I said all the whining was from them. What was that about being stupid? Please forgive me for generalising in the same way you just did. Can I have a copy of the alt list you seem to have ? So what you are saying is, that neither he or his alliance mates have posted in this thread with an alt? Yea I can believe that. (That bit was sarcasm btw, in case you missed it.) Are you also new to these forums? Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
0oO0oOoOo0o	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:19:00 - [447] Edited by: 0oO0oOoOo0o on 09/08/2010 14:22:35 Originally by: Lena Planeswalker You can't mix rl legal systems into this however much you want as the simple fact remains all items etc ingame are property of CCP and hence cannot change hands in a legal or illegal way which makes your points about robbery and theft null and void. a) There's no legal vacuum, you bought something with rl money, in our case a legal obligation by CCP to grant you 30 days of subscription time whenever you redeem the PLEX. The plex graphics itself might belong to CCP, the value of that legal obligation is still yours. It did not perish by turning GTC into PLEX. b) In many legal systems it doesn't even have to be "property". As long as it is something of economic value, it can be subject of crime. A right to be granted 30 days subscription is of value, even if CCP had property of the plex. Only a legally trained person who is expert in the criminal law system, which will apply for such a trial, can say anything for sure here. If I were CCP, I'd not risk it.
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:25:00 - [448] Originally by: Mag's Edited by: Mag''s on 09/08/2010 14:18:47 Originally by: Ressiv Originally by: Mag's You need to point to where, I said all the whining was from them. What was that about being stupid? Please forgive me for generalising in the same way you just did. Can I have a copy of the alt list you seem to have ? So what you are saying is, that neither he or his alliance mates have posted in this thread with an alt? Yea I can believe that. (That bit was sarcasm btw, in case you missed it.) Are you also new to these forums? Edit: oh and you didn't generalise, you were just wrong and didn't read what I posted. New poster, yeah, other then that, not really. I did read what you posted, and thereore asked if I could get a copy of that alt list you seem to have. If you dont have it, you dont really have a way of knowing who is who on here, do you ? ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
Cailais Amarr THE ORDAINED	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:28:00 - [449] Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o It did not perish by turning GTC into PLEX. Strictly speaking it did perish. By converting the GTC into a plex it becomes an in game item and thus owned by CCP - albeit a rather unique one in that it can be converted back in 'game time'. A plex is an unusual item in that it exists in an 'limbo state' in game - its potential to become game time is what describes its relative worth in ISK but it has no value in an of itself in real currency. C. the hydrostatic capsule blog
Lena Planeswalker IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:33:00 - [450] Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o Edited by: 0oO0oOoOo0o on 09/08/2010 14:22:35 Originally by: Lena Planeswalker You can't mix rl legal systems into this however much you want as the simple fact remains all items etc ingame are property of CCP and hence cannot change hands in a legal or illegal way which makes your points about robbery and theft null and void. a) There's no legal vacuum, you bought something with rl money, in our case a legal obligation by CCP to grant you 30 days of subscription time whenever you redeem the PLEX. The plex graphics itself might belong to CCP, the value of that legal obligation is still yours. It did not perish by turning GTC into PLEX. b) In many legal systems it doesn't even have to be "property". As long as it is something of economic value, it can be subject of crime. A right to be granted 30 days subscription is of value, even if CCP had property of the plex. Only a legally trained person who is expert in the criminal law system, which will apply for such a trial, can say anything for sure here. If I were CCP, I'd not risk it. Originally by: Exordium8 Originally by: CCP EULA Your Account, and ALL ATTRIBUTES OF YOUR ACCOUNT, including all corporations, actions, groups, titles and characters, and ALL OBJECTS, CURRENCY AND ITEMS acquired, developed or delivered by or to characters as a result of play through your Accounts, are the SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE PROPERTY OF CCP I don't see what the issue is. There's all this talk about contracts and such. The fact is when you bought the game you signed a legally binding agreement stating all in-game items are CCP's. Not some, all. Without exception. Everything. Not everything but PLEXs. Every single item in the database. The minute the code is redeemed, it becomes an in-game item. Thus CCP's. Yes, it sucks, but it was his choice. do i really need to spell it out even more? actually don't awnser im not even going to bother. didn't like that sig anyways...



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