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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
ShadowandLight Amarr Doom Guard Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.08.07 20:56:00 - [1] This is e x a c t l y what CCP wanted... BTW, good job orphans :) http://mofo.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=7309710 ------- "The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1 Hoist the Colors!
andeira	Posted - 2010.08.07 20:57:00 - [2] http://ad0pt.evekb.co.uk/?a=kill_related&kll_id=1539031 api verified there happy happy joy joy for ccp
Cebraio	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:05:00 - [3] How do you api verify?
Aessoroz	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:06:00 - [4] Over $1000 down the drain.
Wave Nagai Caldari The Mercurial Order	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:09:00 - [5] Originally by: Aessoroz Over $1000 down the drain. Not exactly. It goes straight into CCP's wallet.
Telvani	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:10:00 - [6] yes all piece of CCP's master plan... I really don't care if CCP gets a few more ú a month because some people are this pants-on-head ******ed - as a player of well mental health, all this extra money is basically getting you more dev time (where this time is spent however is a discussion for another time and place, namely the next 18months and every other thread). Nice kill though.
Steve Celeste Overdogs HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:14:00 - [7] Would have been a nice drop, too bad that CCP set the drop chance for that item to ABSOLUTELY ZERO I hate naggers.
Cailais Amarr THE ORDAINED	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:14:00 - [8] Mr CCP ran of giggling into the night. C. the hydrostatic capsule blog
Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:15:00 - [9] Edited by: Sig Sour on 07/08/2010 21:16:05 Is it that if you eliminate one piece of the equation that you can finally understand it and it makes you upset when it is simplified to level? this is you
Cat o'Ninetails Caldari Rancer Defence League Eternal Ascension	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:18:00 - [10] just wow lol its saturday night so i guess the genius that dreamt this up is getting bought a round of drinks in Reykjavfk right now x My Facebook!

Mamba Lev	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:18:00 - [11] Could be drunk but.. http://ad0pt.evekb.co.uk/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=1539031 kill in 0.9 http://mofo.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=7309710 kill in 0.0 If it is real only CCP is the winner.
Dirk Mortice	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:18:00 - [12] Originally by: Steve Celeste Would have been a nice drop, too bad that CCP set the drop chance for that item to ABSOLUTELY ZERO :tinfoil:
Wookie 1 Caldari The Maverick Navy IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:25:00 - [13] What I just posted in other thread Did CCP make him terminally stupid? No Did they tell him to undock in Jita with 74 PLEX'es in the hold of a Cyno Kessy? No Should PLEX'es be treated any different once they stop being money and start being In-game items? No they shouldnt you could lose some faction stuff worth that much easy and that is likely to be the worse loss.
Sofia Roseburn Caldari Mercury Mercenaries Inc.	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:25:00 - [14] Originally by: Mamba Lev Could be drunk but.. http://ad0pt.evekb.co.uk/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=1539031 kill in 0.9 http://mofo.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=7309710 kill in 0.0 If it is real only CCP is the winner. Some killboards classify the system name for several hours to stop people using them as intel sources for camps. ---
Aessoroz	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:25:00 - [15] Originally by: Mamba Lev Could be drunk but.. http://ad0pt.evekb.co.uk/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=1539031 kill in 0.9 http://mofo.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=7309710 kill in 0.0 If it is real only CCP is the winner. All smart killboards block out the location for about a hour, it clearly says Classifield(0.0)
Corozan Aspinall Party Time Inc.	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:26:00 - [16] This makes me deeply uneasy. Feels like a line has been crossed. I didn't like the proposals when they were made public and if this is genuine it is a sad day indeed imho. EVE is a game. I get that. Its also a business. I get that. But there is a fine line between entertainment and gambling. Wait till the press get a hold of this and watch the hysterical fall-out with concern ..
Vee Raa Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:26:00 - [17] Darwin rules
DMF KingBob	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:27:00 - [18] special thx to all involved paries, the kestrel idiot and CCP Zulu(park) for this PLEXes wich are created from real money are sucessfully Removed from the Game with out any usage for any players the worth was around 36 x 2 PLEX @ 34,99(not existing anymore) = 1259,64Ç (still in ccp's Hand) Rly a nice work
Wookie 1 Caldari The Maverick Navy IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:29:00 - [19] Edited by: Wookie 1 on 07/08/2010 21:30:52 Thing is as I said they were once money but they stopped being money when they became an in-game item technically at least. As I also said did CCP make him do it? Whats more I think people are being quite ridiculous about this it make sense from a game design point of view. Also it is likely that those PLEX were sold to him for ISK by somebody who had already had theirs monies worth out of them (as an ISk source).
DMF KingBob	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:31:00 - [20] Originally by: Wookie 1 What I just posted in other thread Did CCP make him terminally stupid? No Did they tell him to undock in Jita with 74 PLEX'es in the hold of a Cyno Kessy? No Should PLEX'es be treated any different once they stop being money and start being In-game items? No they shouldnt you could lose some faction stuff worth that much easy and that is likely to be the worse loss. PLEXs ITEMS are created from real Money and should not be able to leave the game -.- or does the real money leave ccps pocket too?

Yakumo Smith Gallente No End To Infinity Fleetingly Finite	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:34:00 - [21] Awesome! I suppose this must be my sig. I'll do something cool with it eventually.
Wookie 1 Caldari The Maverick Navy IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:34:00 - [22] Edited by: Wookie 1 on 07/08/2010 21:35:55 Quote: DMF PLEXs ITEMS are created from real Money and should not be able to leave the game -.- or does the real money leave ccps pocket too? No because ultimatly the transaction to CCP has completed, I could sell you a car but if you then crash it off the forecourt with no insurance then its no longer my problem, real money changed hands for the car but ultimatly I do not have any legal requirement to protect your investment once it is no longer under my resposibility, (as these PLEX'es were) if Game Time had been lost through a bug then of cousre it is CCP's problem otherwise its not.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:35:00 - [23] Originally by: Vee Raa Darwin rules The final proof that EVE players aren't smarterà As for "onoz, CCP steals our moneys!!", if aystra wants to give the company hand-outs, who are we to say he can't? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Omal Oma Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:38:00 - [24] Wow, that dude was pretty stupid for not having an insta undock and for not carrying them in something with a bit more tank. 1. Shoulda had an insta undock. 2. Shoulda been in something with more HP for concord response. 3. Didn't inject the PLEX's before undocking. (WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO CARRY THEM AROUND?!?) ________________________________________________ <--- My in-game me.
Cat o'Ninetails Caldari Rancer Defence League Eternal Ascension	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:40:00 - [25] Originally by: Wookie 1 Edited by: Wookie 1 on 07/08/2010 21:35:55 Quote: DMF PLEXs ITEMS are created from real Money and should not be able to leave the game -.- or does the real money leave ccps pocket too? No because ultimatly the transaction to CCP has completed, I could sell you a car but if you then crash it off the forecourt with no insurance then its no longer my problem, real money changed hands for the car but ultimatly I do not have any legal requirement to protect your investment once it is no longer under my resposibility, (as these PLEX'es were) if Game Time had been lost through a bug then of cousre it is CCP's problem otherwise its not. It's more like I sell you a round of drinks and then trip you up once you leave the bar tbh lol x My Facebook!
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:43:00 - [26] Originally by: Corozan Aspinall This makes me deeply uneasy. Feels like a line has been crossed. I didn't like the proposals when they were made public and if this is genuine it is a sad day indeed imho. EVE is a game. I get that. Its also a business. I get that. But there is a fine line between entertainment and gambling. Wait till the press get a hold of this and watch the hysterical fall-out with concern .. The line of stupid was crossed for sure. in a frig no less. This is clearly a signature.
Wookie 1 Caldari The Maverick Navy IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:43:00 - [27] Edited by: Wookie 1 on 07/08/2010 21:44:40 Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails It's more like I sell you a round of drinks and then trip you up once you leave the bar tbh lol x Did CCP fire the shots? were they the gunman behind the virtual grassy knoll? No CCP did not kill them their stupidity did simple as that.
DMF KingBob	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:44:00 - [28] Originally by: Wookie 1 Edited by: Wookie 1 on 07/08/2010 21:35:55 Quote: DMF PLEXs ITEMS are created from real Money and should not be able to leave the game -.- or does the real money leave ccps pocket too? No because ultimatly the transaction to CCP has completed, I could sell you a car but if you then crash it off the forecourt with no insurance then its no longer my problem, real money changed hands for the car but ultimatly I do not have any legal requirement to protect your investment once it is no longer under my resposibility, (as these PLEX'es were) if Game Time had been lost through a bug then of cousre it is CCP's problem otherwise its not. the Car-wreck can be used or disassambled or recycled or maybe repaired and not de-spawn from our world http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/1008/sehrdoof.png
King Gore The Church of Sentcha	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:46:00 - [29] Originally by: Omal Oma Wow, that dude was pretty stupid for not having an insta undock and for not carrying them in something with a bit more tank. 1. Shoulda had an insta undock. 2. Shoulda been in something with more HP for concord response. 3. Didn't inject the PLEX's before undocking. (WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO CARRY THEM AROUND?!?) Trade. - Originally by: Verone Happy Ishtar is extremely happy Originally by: Kahn Souphanousinphone I thought I was going to live next to a powerful man, now I just live next to power.
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:46:00 - [30] Originally by: Wookie 1 No because ultimatly the transaction to CCP has completed, I could sell you a car but if you then crash it off the forecourt with no insurance then its no longer my problem, real money changed hands for the car but ultimatly I do not have any legal requirement to protect your investment once it is no longer under my resposibility, (as these PLEX'es were) if Game Time had been lost through a bug then of cousre it is CCP's problem otherwise its not. Consider that as a life insurance. You would lost everything you spared because you lost the paper who formalize the contract between you and the insurance company ? Plex is exactly that. A Plex is a virtual paper who contain a non-nominative contract between a player and CCP where the last one has to provide a service : 1 month of Game Time, to the one who own it. So the transaction is not completed, as Plex can be activated at any time. _______ With the NGE, I'm sorry about the mistake we made. We screwed up and didn't listen to the fans when we should have. - John Smedley, CEO of Sony Online Entertainment

Cheap Dude	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:47:00 - [31] This doens't feel right.. Those plexes should have 100% drop chance. This also gives CCP a bad name, as if it isn't bad enough
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:47:00 - [32] Originally by: DMF KingBob the Car-wreck can be used or disassambled or recycled or maybe repaired and not de-spawn from our world http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/1008/sehrdoof.png àso can the ship wreck. And your image caption is incorrect. It should read "If you're planning a large PLEX transport, you're an idiot ù there is zero need to transport them. Ever." ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Wookie 1 Caldari The Maverick Navy IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:47:00 - [33] Edited by: Wookie 1 on 07/08/2010 21:48:56 Originally by: DMF KingBob the Car-wreck can be used or disassambled or recycled or maybe repaired and not de-spawn from our world http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/1008/sehrdoof.png That is definate hair splitting of the highest order if you write off the car then it is unlikely that you are going to get much more than a lovely fine for driving without insurance, sure you can salvage it and part stripping would give some money but its something of a null point. quote=Cheap Dude]This doens't feel right.. Those plexes should have 100% drop chance. This also gives CCP a bad name, as if it isn't bad enough Then we would have people whining because its funding gankers
Darek Castigatus Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:49:00 - [34] Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails Originally by: Wookie 1 Edited by: Wookie 1 on 07/08/2010 21:35:55 Quote: DMF PLEXs ITEMS are created from real Money and should not be able to leave the game -.- or does the real money leave ccps pocket too? No because ultimatly the transaction to CCP has completed, I could sell you a car but if you then crash it off the forecourt with no insurance then its no longer my problem, real money changed hands for the car but ultimatly I do not have any legal requirement to protect your investment once it is no longer under my resposibility, (as these PLEX'es were) if Game Time had been lost through a bug then of cousre it is CCP's problem otherwise its not. It's more like I sell you a round of drinks and then trip you up once you leave the bar tbh lol x No, no it really isn't. Where he got the plexes from has nothing to do with the fact he was an utter pants-on-head ******ed moron for ever considering undocking with that much isk in a friggin kestrel with no insta undock. The ONLY thing CCP has to do is ensure the game time code can be exchanged for two PLEX, which they did, 37 times in this case. What happens after that is entirely up to the guy who owns them. In this case he was an idiot and lost them and that is no-ones fault but his own. http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sig.php
Torakenat	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:53:00 - [35] words can not express the amount of stupidity aystra accomplished.
Wookie 1 Caldari The Maverick Navy IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:54:00 - [36] Originally by: Sky Marshal Consider that as a life insurance. You would lost everything you spared because you lost the paper who formalize the contract between you and the insurance company ? Plex is exactly that. A Plex is a virtual paper who contain a non-nominative contract between a player and CCP where the last one has to provide a service to the owner : 1 month of Game Time. So the transaction is not completed, as Plex can be activated at any time, and wasn't at this time. For one thing thats exactly how insurance companies work. Anyway all that CCP is contracted to do is to give the initial purchaser said PLEX if the purcahser sells them then the contract does not transfer, if however they were the original owner then the GTC/ PLEX contract is simply that you have the ability to redeem gametime you also have the ability to leave them in a can in the middle of a belt in the Drone Regions or wherever
Karlemgne Tides Of War	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:55:00 - [37] That's about $1110 just given to CCP for free. Its actually quite underhanded and gross of CCP--and why I always disagreed with this "change." Yeah, its about making plex cards like any other item! It has nothing to do with all of the extra money that destruction of these items will actually earn us. Nothing to see here. Move along. My sig don't fracking work.
Kashadin	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:55:00 - [38] epic
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:58:00 - [39] Originally by: Karlemgne That's about $1110 just given to CCP for free. Its actually quite underhanded and gross of ~~CCP~~ aystra Fix'd. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Denidil Gallente Rape Pillage and Burn	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:58:00 - [40] you're stupid enough to undock with 74 plexes in your hold, then you're a freaking moron. it's not CCP's problem that someone is terminally stupid. that being said.. christ i wish i had that kinda ISK to blow.

Hulkageddon Jackpot Amarr Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2010.08.07 21:58:00 - [41] So basically this is what just happened: 1) person(s) A purchase service from CCP (playtime) for real money. 2) this playtime is destroyed in game 3) CCP has thus earned 1200 bucks, and does not need to give service/playtime in return. 4) CCP makes 100% return on these 1200 bucks. That reeks of fraud to me.
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:01:00 - [42] Originally by: Hulkageddon Jackpot So basically this is what just happened: 1) person(s) A purchase service from CCP (playtime) for real money. 2) this playtime is destroyed in game 3) CCP has thus earned 1200 bucks, and does not need to give service/playtime in return. 4) CCP makes 100% return on these 1200 bucks. That reeks of fraud to me. Which is why you are not a lawyer. This is clearly a signature.
Darod Zyree Gallente Zyree Holding	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:02:00 - [43] Originally by: Hulkageddon Jackpot So basically this is what just happened: 1) person(s) A purchase service from CCP (playtime) for real money. 2) this playtime is destroyed in game 3) CCP has thus earned 1200 bucks, and does not need to give service/playtime in return. 4) CCP makes 100% return on these 1200 bucks. That reeks of fraud to me. CCP never asked said person to undock CCP implemented new feature, player made use of said new feature CCP feature working as intended :D And LOL this loss made my day. -Darod-
Wookie 1 Caldari The Maverick Navy IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:04:00 - [44] Edited by: Wookie 1 on 07/08/2010 22:06:22 Edited by: Wookie 1 on 07/08/2010 22:05:17 Originally by: Hulkageddon Jackpot So basically this is what just happened: 1) person(s) A purchase service from CCP (playtime) for real money. 2) this playtime is destroyed in game 3) CCP has thus earned 1200 bucks, and does not need to give service/playtime in return. 4) CCP makes 100% return on these 1200 bucks. That reeks of fraud to me. No what happened was 1) Person(s) purchases a service from CCP (a GTC) that is fufilled and person(s) gets the GTC. 2) They change it to PLEX (an ingame item) 3) ? 4) Kessy Pilot loses their ingame items in Jita to a gank. 5) People whine (OP could even be said person) Which is why you are not a lawyer. (unless you are the kind who is so stupid they try to defend smoking gun people who have confessed already)
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:04:00 - [45] Edited by: Sky Marshal on 07/08/2010 22:05:28 Originally by: Wookie 1 For one thing thats exactly how insurance companies work. Anyway all that CCP is contracted to do is to give the initial purchaser said PLEX if the purcahser sells them then the contract does not transfer, if however they were the original owner then the GTC/ PLEX contract is simply that you have the ability to redeem gametime you also have the ability to leave them in a can in the middle of a belt in the Drone Regions or wherever I won't love living in your country if your companies work that way for this kind of product. About the Plex, the contract IS transfered. If it wasn't, everyone who buy it from the market wouldn't be able to use it to get the game time. It is a non-nominative contract, CCP don't care about who have it, they have to add the game time when activated. I will begin to think them as a standard ingame item, the day that CCP will provide a way to get them from the game, not from someone who bought it with real money (I mean : NPC loot, Storyline/LP reward, etc...). _______ With the NGE, I'm sorry about the mistake we made. We screwed up and didn't listen to the fans when we should have. - John Smedley, CEO of Sony Online Entertainment
MacProsper	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:07:00 - [46] Originally by: Vee Raa Darwin rules Yes, indeed.
SirRalph Minmatar Nomadic Freelancers	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:08:00 - [47] Originally by: ShadowandLight This is e x a c t l y what CCP wanted... BTW, good job orphans :) http://mofo.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=7309710 There is absolutely none reasons to move your PLEX's around, even if you are selling them. They can be activated from anywhere in TQ..
Darek Castigatus Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:09:00 - [48] Originally by: Hulkageddon Jackpot So basically this is what just happened: 1) person(s) A purchase service from CCP (playtime) for real money. 2) this playtime is destroyed in game 3) CCP has thus earned 1200 bucks, and does not need to give service/playtime in return. 4) CCP makes 100% return on these 1200 bucks. That reeks of fraud to me. So basically you're rehashing the same crappy arguement people tried to make when the change was first announced only now it makes even less sense than before, good job on that. Heres a newsflash for you, THE GUY CHOSE TO PUT THE ASSETS AT RISK THE SECOND HE UNDOCKED!! ITS EXACTLY THE **ING SAME AS IF HE HAD HAD THAT AMOUNT OF ISK WORTH OF ANY OTHER ITEM IN EVE. Short of me coming around to your house and shouting this at you 24 hours a day for the next month I dont see how this could be made any clearer. What someone choses to do with any in game item they own has precisely jack and ** to do with CCP. http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sig.php
DMF KingBob	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:09:00 - [49] Edited by: DMF KingBob on 07/08/2010 22:09:07 Originally by: Darod Zyree Originally by: Hulkageddon Jackpot So basically this is what just happened: 1) person(s) A purchase service from CCP (playtime) for real money. 2) this playtime is destroyed in game 3) CCP has thus earned 1200 bucks, and does not need to give service/playtime in return. 4) CCP makes 100% return on these 1200 bucks. That reeks of fraud to me. CCP never asked said person to undock CCP implemented new feature, player made use of said new feature And LOL this loss made my day. ccp just made that the payed playtime is gone.....(plexes are removed and wasnt in the wreck) CCP feature working as intended :D
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:10:00 - [50] Edited by: Tippia on 07/08/2010 22:10:46 Originally by: Hulkageddon Jackpot So basically this is what just happened: 1) person(s) A purchase service from CCP (playtime) for real money. 2) this playtime is destroyed in game 3) CCP has thus earned 1200 bucks, and does not need to give service/playtime in return. 4) CCP makes 100% return on these 1200 bucks. That reeks of fraud to me. No. What happened is this. Person(s) A purchase service from CCP (GTC) for real money. Person(s) A choose not to turn GTC into gametime, but into PLEX. Person(s) A choose not to torn PLEXes into gametime, but to place them in a situation where they can be destroyed. PLEXes get destroyed At no point has CCP defaulted on their promise. Would you still think it was fraud if step #3 has said "Perso(s) A right-click→trash the PLEXes" instead? Originally by: DMF KingBob ccp just made that the payed playtime is gone No. Aystra did. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki

Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:12:00 - [51] Originally by: Hulkageddon Jackpot So basically this is what just happened: 1) person(s) A purchase service from CCP (playtime) for real money. 2) this playtime is destroyed in game 3) CCP has thus earned 1200 bucks, and does not need to give service/playtime in return. 4) CCP makes 100% return on these 1200 bucks. That reeks of fraud to me. One can view this a bit differently. The only valid reason for undocking with a plex is to try to make a profit from reselling it at a different location - as such, it's fair that people who do this should expose themselves to some risk. Anyone who buys a PLEX from CCP, either to sell or redeem, never has to take any risks with it. They can be contracted privately to any other player and then redeemed, without either party having to travel anywhere or even undock. --- 34.4:1 mineral compression
Wookie 1 Caldari The Maverick Navy IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:13:00 - [52] Edited by: Wookie 1 on 07/08/2010 22:15:43 Said it better than I did Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 07/08/2010 22:10:46 Originally by: Hulkageddon Jackpot So basically this is what just happened: 1) person(s) A purchase service from CCP (playtime) for real money. 2) this playtime is destroyed in game 3) CCP has thus earned 1200 bucks, and does not need to give service/playtime in return. 4) CCP makes 100% return on these 1200 bucks. That reeks of fraud to me. No. What happened is this. Person(s) A purchase service from CCP (GTC) for real money. Person(s) A choose not to turn GTC into gametime, but into PLEX. Person(s) A choose not to torn PLEXes into gametime, but to place them in a situation where they can be destroyed. PLEXes get destroyed At no point has CCP defaulted on their promise. Would you still think it was fraud if step #3 has said "Perso(s) A right-click→trash the PLEXes" instead? Originally by: DMF KingBob ccp just made that the payed playtime is gone No. Aystra did. Also I propose PLEXEGEDDON saving Iceland one noob at a time
Jarnsaxi	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:14:00 - [53] This kill makes me giggle, simply becuz it single handedly helped Icelands Economy by adding around 1150Euros to the countrys income without us rly having to do anything soooo the fact that i can now in theory pvp to save Iceland is prty sweet :)
PRO TECH	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:14:00 - [54] Originally by: Sky Marshal I will begin to think them as a standard ingame item, the day that CCP will provide a way to get them from the game, not from someone who bought it with real money (I mean : NPC loot, Storyline/LP reward, etc...). +1 if plex could be brought with ingame isk / LPs then this wouldn't be a problem. i'm more inclined to go for LPs reward along the same line of say a navy invul field as there close ish in value the last time i checked (ages ago)
ImmaSplodeYou	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:18:00 - [55] Wow.. 22bn,1300 US - Whichever means more to you, they're both pretty big numbers You can't blame CCP in the slightest for this, all they've done is got rid of the special treatment of certain items. Sadly, they haven't got rid of Morons who don't realise there is NO reason to move plex around, as if it's not in Jita it will be in contracts. I can only hope the bloke in the Kessy has quit, as he probably can't afford to play anymore Hehehe
Drone 613	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:20:00 - [56] I'm surprised this move hasn't prompted anyone to see if Bobby Kotick has become a major stock holder of CCP...
Hulkageddon Jackpot Amarr Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:21:00 - [57] mmmmmm succesful troll was succesful <3 pretty amazing, considering who I am and what I do, that someone would believe I object to this being possible :P
Darek Castigatus Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:22:00 - [58] Originally by: Drone 613 I'm surprised this move hasn't prompted anyone to see if Bobby Kotick has become a major stock holder of CCP... Nah, If Ko**** was in charge a Polaris would have shown up and sucked all the plexes out of the station then scooped them and flown off cackling maniacly. http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sig.php
Wookie 1 Caldari The Maverick Navy IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:22:00 - [59] Edited by: Wookie 1 on 07/08/2010 22:24:01 Originally by: Drone 613 I'm surprised this move hasn't prompted anyone to see if Bobby Kotick has become a major stock holder of CCP... Nah if Bobby Kotick took over PLEX wouldnt exist. Has anybody ever considered how few people actually pay CCP for their accounts (PLEX bought for ISk)? Originally by: Hulkageddon Jackpot mmmmmm succesful troll was succesful <3 pretty amazing, considering who I am and what I do, that someone would believe I object to this being possible :P Also it was a nice troll congrats you win a prize (please note all prizes are strictly metaphorical)
DMF KingBob	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:22:00 - [60] 6 years of game time payed but not serviced by ccp -.-

Cheap Dude	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:24:00 - [61] Originally by: ImmaSplodeYou Wow.. 22bn,1300 US - Whichever means more to you, they're both pretty big numbers You can't blame CCP in the slightest for this, all they've done is got rid of the special treatment of certain items. Sadly, they haven't got rid of Morons who don't realise there is NO reason to move plex around, as if it's not in Jita it will be in contracts. I can only hope the bloke in the Kessy has quit, as he probably can't afford to play anymore Hehehe Well.. you can't blame CCP for the player to screw up.. but you CAN blame CCP for not dropping those plexes. The player lost the plexes because he was stupid to undock with them in such a ship.. but the agressor (looter) should have been given those plexes.
Karlemgne Tides Of War	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:25:00 - [62] Originally by: Denidil you're stupid enough to undock with 74 plexes in your hold, then you're a freaking moron. it's not CCP's problem that someone is terminally stupid. that being said.. christ i wish i had that kinda ISK to blow. Maybe if these items had a 100% chance of dropping you'd have a point, because CCP is still providing the services those cards represent to someone. Maybe. That they were ALL destroyed is just a testimony to the fact that this was purely a way for CCP to up their revenue while having "adapt or die" (and believe me I am one of these guys in most circumstances) players like yourself being duped into defending the policy. My sig don't fracking work.
Darek Castigatus Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:25:00 - [63] Originally by: Hulkageddon Jackpot mmmmmm succesful troll was succesful <3 pretty amazing, considering who I am and what I do, that someone would believe I object to this being possible :P Stranger things have happened, why only the other week Jade Constantine posted something that wasnt completely and utterly ******ed, I mean ONE WHOLE post that didnt make me doubt his mental health....I was shocked and awed. http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sig.php
slickdog	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:25:00 - [64] I like plexigeddon idea lol.... we got a head start lol
Denidil Gallente Rape Pillage and Burn	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:26:00 - [65] Originally by: Cipher Jones Originally by: Hulkageddon Jackpot So basically this is what just happened: 1) person(s) A purchase service from CCP (playtime) for real money. 2) this playtime is destroyed in game 3) CCP has thus earned 1200 bucks, and does not need to give service/playtime in return. 4) CCP makes 100% return on these 1200 bucks. That reeks of fraud to me. Which is why you are not a lawyer. as someone who writes financial software fraud has a specific meaning. this is not fraud. if you feel the urge to falsely accuse someone of fraud again try the following simple steps 1) Find the nearest door 2) Open it 3) Place you head against the doorjam 4) Slam door repeat until sense is knocked into you.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:27:00 - [66] Originally by: DMF KingBob 6 years of game time payed but not serviced by ccp -.- Again, if that's what the player wants, why should CCP not honour that wish? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Hulkageddon Jackpot Amarr Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:28:00 - [67] Originally by: slickdog I like plexigeddon idea lol.... we got a head start lol oooooh. daddy likes this....
Wookie 1 Caldari The Maverick Navy IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:29:00 - [68] Originally by: Hulkageddon Jackpot Originally by: slickdog I like plexigeddon idea lol.... we got a head start lol oooooh. daddy likes this.... Just remember who had the idea
Naomi Wildfire Amarr Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:29:00 - [69] Quote: 6 years of game time payed but not serviced by ccp -.- I spot the kessis pilots alt :D But guys, see it from a differend angle. He bought the fame to be one of the most known pilots over night, some most work hard for that in eve.
Denidil Gallente Rape Pillage and Burn	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:36:00 - [70] Plexes should have a 90-100% drop rate though.

Shawna Gray Gallente	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:36:00 - [71] Originally by: Wookie 1 Edited by: Wookie 1 on 07/08/2010 21:35:55 Quote: DMF PLEXs ITEMS are created from real Money and should not be able to leave the game -.- or does the real money leave ccps pocket too? No because ultimatly the transaction to CCP has completed, I could sell you a car but if you then crash it off the forecourt with no insurance then its no longer my problem, real money changed hands for the car but ultimatly I do not have any legal requirement to protect your investment once it is no longer under my resposibility, (as these PLEX'es were) if Game Time had been lost through a bug then of cousre it is CCP's problem otherwise its not. Its closer to buying a car, drive it to a demolition expert to have him blow it up, then whine about not having a car anymore.
Wookie 1 Caldari The Maverick Navy IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:36:00 - [72] Originally by: Denidil Plexes should have a 90-100% drop rate though. Then they are special items again which is exactly what this move was designed to stop
BeachParty Caldari Semi Precious	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:38:00 - [73] Quote: Just remember who had the idea Thats easy, its one of the guys that killed the Kestral...nice work slickdog!
iudex	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:38:00 - [74] I wonder what's the technical back-story of this kill. The Kessy isn't famed for a fast warpability, but it had 3 Low Friction Nozzle Joints (15% agility bonus each) and a inertia mod. Afaik the cargo expander reduces the base speed and therefore makes the ship entering warp even faster. I don't see how a BS and a BC were able to get a lock on the Kessy under normal conditions, it should warp almost instantly with that mods or at least fast enough to avoid a BC/BS lock. Was lag involved ? Or too many ships at the undock point ? Or a 2 minute queue at the gate ? If something like that was involved, this story could be even more hilarious and damaging to CCP's reputation. __________________________ http://eveboard.com/pilot/iudex
BeachParty Caldari Semi Precious	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:41:00 - [75] Edited by: BeachParty on 07/08/2010 22:44:41 Sebo bs's on jita are very fast, also the kestral was warping to the station and landed at 47K. He did not undock from 4-4. Its also important to note the pilot flew to the 0rphanage hub under a war dec, so he was flashy red.....
Meno Theaetetus Wildly Inappropriate Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:41:00 - [76] Originally by: Steve Celeste Would have been a nice drop, too bad that CCP set the drop chance for that item to ABSOLUTELY ZERO I've seen them drop, drop rate may be low, but it's not zero.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:42:00 - [77] Originally by: iudex Afaik the cargo expander reduces the base speed and therefore makes the ship entering warp even faster. No. Modifying your speed makes no difference in the time-to-warp. Only agility and mass changes have any effect on that. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Xhae	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:44:00 - [78] Edited by: Xhae on 07/08/2010 22:45:34 Originally by: SirRalph There is absolutely none reasons to move your PLEX's around, even if you are selling them. They can be activated from anywhere in TQ.. This is what makes the fail so perfect. There is no conceivable reason to move a PLEX. Anyone's alt can receive the ISK, buy a PLEX in Jita, and contract it to their main or any other character for consumption wherever the consuming character happens to be. Someone should have told aystra that.
boo3916 D00M. Excessum Messor	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:44:00 - [79] seriously i wish some people would get a clue about plex,s my alt sits in jita 24/7 buying and selling plex on the market, lots of people do it to make a profit, if some idiot decides to undock in jita 4/4 with 74 plex in a kessie they deserve everything they get. also i have tons of plex and i havnt paid any rl money for em, i buy and sell for isk. no doubt the origional person/persons paid rl isk for these plex and decided to sell them for isk. the person who lost these probably got them off buy orders for isk and was in the process of moving them to sell for a greater profit of isk, not rl money figure it out the rl money bought these to obtain isk, the person who lost these probably bought off multiple people for isk to sell for isk. so really everyone got what they wanted, except for the person who lost em cos he is still waiting for the brain he ordered last year. no diff between plex and faction mods, there bought for isk and sold for isk, but only idiots lose em for nothing by being stupid
Hulkageddon Jackpot Amarr Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:47:00 - [80] Simply out of interest, I have forwarded the query of whether or not what happened here is "ok" or not to a professor at Stanford. I will be most intrigued by the response, I hope he has time for us :)

boo3916 D00M. Excessum Messor	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:48:00 - [81] Originally by: Hulkageddon Jackpot Simply out of interest, I have forwarded the query of whether or not what happened here is "ok" or not to a professor at Stanford. I will be most intrigued by the response, I hope he has time for us :) wtf has a proffessor got to do with anything ?? the guy lost em cos he was a totally idiot - end of
Darek Castigatus Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:49:00 - [82] two reasons i can think off that someone would do this 1) They have a bulk order and the client specified the station he wanted the plex delivered to once they had been bought. Not very smart of the client but at least understandable. 2) The guy got greedy and was moving a bunch of already activated plexes to another market hub where they would sell for more. Again stupid but understandable. I honestly cant think of any other reason why someone would risk this amount of isk in such a stupid way. http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sig.php
alittlebirdy	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:52:00 - [83] To you iditos in the thread, So if I buy a car, drive it off the lot, into a tree or pull out infront of someone... whatever. I should get a new free car from the dealer? Retry I buy a nice new shinny GTC from CCP (convert it to a PLEX) and CCP gives me 2 nice shinny plex's. I undock and someone blows me up... should CCP give me 2 more plexs? Same idea, answer is no woulda been nice if some dropped lol nice kill.
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:53:00 - [84] Edited by: Sky Marshal on 07/08/2010 22:54:53 Originally by: Wookie 1 Originally by: Denidil Plexes should have a 90-100% drop rate though. Then they are special items again which is exactly what this move was designed to stop They are special items anyway. No other items can be activated to give "something" whatever your location. No other item can be bought with real money by a direct manner too. Whatever CCP can say, Plexes remains special items. They will not when they will be seeded sometimes by the game itself too. But as it is Zulu who made the devblog, I am not surprised of this move Still, the player did a stupid move. Whatever the reason of it (a wrong click or the will to move them). And to the idiot just before, compare with a car is not a good analogy. _______ With the NGE, I'm sorry about the mistake we made. We screwed up and didn't listen to the fans when we should have. - John Smedley, CEO of Sony Online Entertainment
Hulkageddon Jackpot Amarr Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:54:00 - [85] Originally by: boo3916 Originally by: Hulkageddon Jackpot Simply out of interest, I have forwarded the query of whether or not what happened here is "ok" or not to a professor at Stanford. I will be most intrigued by the response, I hope he has time for us :) wtf has a proffessor got to do with anything ?? the guy lost em cos he was a totally idiot - end of those are not mutually exclusive. the guy is a total tool, and its really funny. but I'm interested to know if -legally speaking- when you buy plex, are you buying a service (gametime) or an ingame item. and is it still considered a regular ingame item if it can be redeemed for real world service... In which case the fact that they can be destroyed/stolen by other players, and the service you purchased thus NOT redeemed (to you) might actually be a crime of sorts. its pretty fascinating, I wanna know :D
Denidil Gallente Rape Pillage and Burn	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:55:00 - [86] Originally by: Hulkageddon Jackpot Simply out of interest, I have forwarded the query of whether or not what happened here is "ok" or not to a professor at Stanford. I will be most intrigued by the response, I hope he has time for us :) Totally and 100% legal. you purchased an ingame (well.. 2 units of it) for real money, then turned around and exchanged it for ISK. CCP explicitly says there is no gaurantee said item will not be destroyed. it's just like if they sold ships for real money and someone's ship got blown up. buying virtual goods with real money is 100% caveat emptor.
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:57:00 - [87] Originally by: Hulkageddon Jackpot Simply out of interest, I have forwarded the query of whether or not what happened here is "ok" or not to a professor at Stanford. I will be most intrigued by the response, I hope he has time for us :) That can be very interesting indeed. _______ With the NGE, I'm sorry about the mistake we made. We screwed up and didn't listen to the fans when we should have. - John Smedley, CEO of Sony Online Entertainment
Hulkageddon Jackpot Amarr Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:57:00 - [88] Originally by: Denidil Originally by: Hulkageddon Jackpot Simply out of interest, I have forwarded the query of whether or not what happened here is "ok" or not to a professor at Stanford. I will be most intrigued by the response, I hope he has time for us :) Totally and 100% legal. you purchased an ingame (well.. 2 units of it) for real money, then turned around and exchanged it for ISK. CCP explicitly says there is no gaurantee said item will not be destroyed. it's just like if they sold ships for real money and someone's ship got blown up. buying virtual goods with real money is 100% caveat emptor. The part I wonder about, is if this applies when the ingame item can be redeemed for real world service. So, i sent out the question :D
Denidil Gallente Rape Pillage and Burn	Posted - 2010.08.07 22:59:00 - [89] Originally by: Hulkageddon Jackpot The part I wonder about, is if this applies when the ingame item can be redeemed for real world service, which is a very different beast from say, a ship or an ingame weapon. So, i sent out the question :D and ingame item is an ingame item, no matter what you can do with it.
Shawna Gray Gallente	Posted - 2010.08.07 23:00:00 - [90] Originally by: Hulkageddon Jackpot Edited by: Hulkageddon Jackpot on 07/08/2010 22:57:19 Originally by: Denidil Originally by: Hulkageddon Jackpot Simply out of interest, I have forwarded the query of whether or not what happened here is "ok" or not to a professor at Stanford. I will be most intrigued by the response, I hope he has time for us :) Totally and 100% legal. you purchased an ingame (well.. 2 units of it) for real money, then turned around and exchanged it for ISK. CCP explicitly says there is no gaurantee said item will not be destroyed. it's just like if they sold ships for real money and someone's ship got blown up. buying virtual goods with real money is 100% caveat emptor. The part I wonder about, is if this applies when the ingame item can be redeemed for real world service, which is a very different beast from say, a ship or an ingame weapon. So, i sent out the question :D I can sell any ship or ingame weapons for this ingame item to get a realworld service.

Vee Raa Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2010.08.07 23:00:00 - [91] it's like buying a concert ticket, and then entering a Hell's Angels bar in your last years Gaybar dressing contest suit. Quote: Jita Quote: war dec/flashy red
Hulkageddon Jackpot Amarr Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2010.08.07 23:01:00 - [92] Just for the record, I'm personally perfectly fine with PLEXs popping. I'm just fascinated by the question.
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2010.08.07 23:01:00 - [93] Originally by: Shawna Gray I can sell any ship or ingame weapons for this ingame item to get a realworld service. Apart the fact that this is the primary function of a Plex, it is not the case for a ship. _______ With the NGE, I'm sorry about the mistake we made. We screwed up and didn't listen to the fans when we should have. - John Smedley, CEO of Sony Online Entertainment
Xhae	Posted - 2010.08.07 23:10:00 - [94] Originally by: Hulkageddon Jackpot Just for the record, I'm personally perfectly fine with PLEXs popping. I'm just fascinated by the question. Seconded, though I have concerns about the relevance of a Stanford professor's knowledge to the jurisdiction in which CCP operate.
Xhae	Posted - 2010.08.07 23:15:00 - [95] Originally by: Sky Marshal Originally by: Shawna Gray I can sell any ship or ingame weapons for this ingame item to get a realworld service. Apart the fact that this is the primary function of a Plex, it is not the case for a ship. The in-game item arguably represents the potential for a real-world service, the right to which is voided by the item's loss. You could previously lose the item by selling it (for any price, 300,000 ISK being a popular Want To Buy.) CCP have (loudly) announced that said in-game item will be treated like every other in-game item, and as such you can lose it (and the right to game time which it contains) in the same manner as every other in-game item.
RifterDrifter They Found Oil On Your Anus	Posted - 2010.08.07 23:16:00 - [96] Originally by: Cheap Dude Well.. you can't blame CCP for the player to screw up.. but you CAN blame CCP for not dropping those plexes. The player lost the plexes because he was stupid to undock with them in such a ship.. but the agressor (looter) should have been given those plexes. Sure, Plexes should always drop right? RONG The Plexes where quite likely stacked, so the single stack of 74 plexes had a 50% probability of dropping. _______________________________________________
Hulkageddon	Posted - 2010.08.07 23:18:00 - [97] It's pretty simple actually: Stupid is as stupid does.
SupaKudoRio	Posted - 2010.08.07 23:19:00 - [98] Originally by: Hulkageddon Jackpot Simply out of interest, I have forwarded the query of whether or not what happened here is "ok" or not to a professor at Stanford. I will be most intrigued by the response, I hope he has time for us :) I am also intrigued to know what response you get. I will fall about laughing if he comes back saying it's not legal; hello new **storm for CCP to deal with as people claim back their cash after being ****s in game. Ye'llo?
Obsidian Hawk RONA Legion	Posted - 2010.08.07 23:24:00 - [99] hmmm how did this happen. 1. Jita 2. Lots of expensive items 3. Like everyone else that is on the wall of ~~Epic~~ Legendary Fails, they used the wrong ship, you do not haul expensive stuff in a frigate. 4. wardec/gcc 5. Attackers prolly had a lot of neutral RSB on them along with their own sensor boosters. Which brings me to the question, do people ever check their aggro timer, kill rights, and or active war decs before they undock? Its like not checking your autopilot and flying through rancer.
Vontan Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.07 23:28:00 - [100] I hate people. Only a **ing ****ed subhuman would spend $1100 real cash and lose it like that. Seriously, if you want any more proof that having money does not make you smart or better than someone else, look no further than that killmail. I hope he cried into his pillow until it was a soaked mess.

B0FROST	Posted - 2010.08.07 23:30:00 - [101] Originally by: Hulkageddon Jackpot Just for the record, I'm personally perfectly fine with PLEXs popping. I'm just fascinated by the question. Totally legit. CCP is selling a service (GTCs) for hard cash. If a player chooses to use this service he gets either a) 60 days of playtime added to his account, or b) 2xPLEX, which can be used in-game for the exact same thing. Here stops the business transaction. What said person does after this, is his and his own agenda. Imagine: you buy a real-ultra-cool LED tv at your local Radio Shack. The second after you paid a fortune, you can do "what ever you want" with your new tv. Drive it home and plug it in, toss it into a dumpster or give it to your neighbors. It is not the business of Radio Shack what you do or will do with it! For RL reference we rule out the possibility of ganking or piracy: You bought the TV with a massive discount and want to sell it to your redneck cousins 300km away. Making a good profit. Would it be Radio Shacks fault, if you'd have an accident on the way there? Would the insurance of Radio Shack pay if you are too f?cking stupid to drive? I hereby rest my case your honor!
Mire Stoude The Undesirables	Posted - 2010.08.07 23:38:00 - [102] Edited by: Mire Stoude on 07/08/2010 23:42:35 This was lost in Jita. This is, most likely, someone who put out a buy order for PLEXes and acquired 74 of them (cheaply) with game money. The people who actually put real money to buy them got their Dollar's (or Euro's) worth. In any case, he was hauling 22b worth of a commodity. He should have been smarter. An Abaddon with 250k of EHP, MWD and a cloak would have been better. Probably would have cost 200m to put together and could have been sold at the destination system for more than he bought it for. EDIT: If he lost it to war targets in Jita he is deserving of a Darwin award.
Derus Grobb Minmatar Selectus Pravus Lupus	Posted - 2010.08.07 23:41:00 - [103] Haha, brilliant --- Originally by: CCP Soundwave The roof is awesome.
Barkaial Starfinder Minmatar The Kairos Syndicate	Posted - 2010.08.07 23:42:00 - [104] Wow.. You guys REALLY think CCP made PLEX undockable to get easy money? People would buy those PLEX anyway, and CCP would provide the server in the same way, even if they were not bought, or not destroyed. Nothing changes for CCP here, just for the player. The player is paying the price for stupidity, and seriously... If this is not fake, this player deserved it. It's good for him he just lost 1000$ over a game if he learns the lesson.
Quaaid Caldari Light Adama	Posted - 2010.08.07 23:46:00 - [105] Grats to the 0rphanage! My Ransom Face
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2010.08.07 23:46:00 - [106] Originally by: Xhae The in-game item arguably represents the potential for a real-world service, the right to which is voided by the item's loss. You could previously lose the item by selling it (for any price, 300,000 ISK being a popular Want To Buy.) CCP have (loudly) announced that said in-game item will be treated like every other in-game item, and as such you can lose it (and the right to game time which it contains) in the same manner as every other in-game item. Apart the fact that you have bougth game time in the first place, whatever the form it has. There is still an IRL connection. This is why it can exist a problem with the "item's loss", and why there is different perceptions. For the rest, I agree that CCP prevented players with the opening EVE window and many others ways. I don't forget the player's responsability, but still, I don't agree with logic of CCP. Originally by: B0FROST Here stops the business transaction. What said person does after this, is his and his own agenda. Imagine: you buy a real-ultra-cool LED tv at your local Radio Shack. The second after you paid a fortune, you can do "what ever you want" with your new tv. Drive it home and plug it in, toss it into a dumpster or give it to your neighbors. It is not the business of Radio Shack what you do or will do with it! Your RL reference is wrong because CCP still have an obligation of service who remains as long as the Plex exist. Your TV seller, once it is sold, it is all, there is no service provided with it (maybe yes if you bought warranty extension or anything like this, and depending of what it will concern). So it can't be used for Plex. I did in the post #30 a comparison with life insurance, probably more correct to describe them. _______ With the NGE, I'm sorry about the mistake we made. We screwed up and didn't listen to the fans when we should have. - John Smedley, CEO of Sony Online Entertainment
London Gallente Void-Wolf Propter Falco	Posted - 2010.08.07 23:50:00 - [107] Amazing. Dude has probably gone killed himself by this point... because if your spending that much on a computer game, you have nothing else going on.
Barkaial Starfinder Minmatar The Kairos Syndicate	Posted - 2010.08.07 23:54:00 - [108] So.. If you buy game cards and set them on fire, you think ... oh god
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.07 23:55:00 - [109] Edited by: Tippia on 07/08/2010 23:56:15 Originally by: Sky Marshal Your RL reference is wrong because CCP still have an obligation of service who remains as long as the Plex exist. What trips people up, I think, is that they don't realise that the player can choose to relieve CCP of this obligation at any point. Having a possbility of being lost in a fiery explosion is just a new way of doing that, and nothing that hasn't existed before. Yes, CCP have an obligation to provide you with game time if you choose to cash in on that service, but that's not the only available choice. Why should they have that obligation if you choose not to call them on this promise and instead delete it? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Rowbin Hod Cloak and Daggers Black Core Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.07 23:56:00 - [110] Not that this thread needs any more opinions, but anyway. Originally by: Xhae CCP have (loudly) announced that said in-game item will be treated like every other in-game item, and as such you can lose it (and the right to game time which it contains) in the same manner as every other in-game item. Can you help me then? I tried right clicking on a nanofiber internal structure II in my hanger, but there wasn't an option to apply 30 days of game time. Tried it too with a packaged (and unpackaged) Caldari shuttle, but I didn't get this option either. Weird. They are NOT the same as any other in game item, and never will be. They are unique, and hiding behind a "we want all items to be the same" facade is complete bs. For the record, I have very little sympathy for the person who lost the plex, it was a dumb move. I don't think arguments that use the terms "legal", "fraud", "EULA" etc are accurate, because, IMO, CCP haven't technically done anything wrong. All I would say is that the moral standpoint is quite fuzzy. I'm not happy that ccp are taking $1000 from the playerbase for gametime, and not providing that gametime. And I don't want to hear that **** about "CCP fulfilled their part of the transaction blah blah". 100% drop rate would mot be too much to ask for an item which is absolutely unique.

Makar Kravchenko	Posted - 2010.08.08 00:07:00 - [111] GET IN THE CAR NOW, STAN!
Adacia Calla Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2010.08.08 00:14:00 - [112] When CCP implemented the change, they didn't think there was anyone as stupid as this guy. As said many times already, darwin was right.
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. Blade.	Posted - 2010.08.08 00:21:00 - [113] Originally by: Rowbin Hod They are unique, ... 100% drop rate would not be too much to ask for an item which is absolutely unique. Which one of the 74 in the stack was the unique one? Signature removed, please only use English on the forums. Zymurgist Okay sweet-cheeks xxx. Avon
GateScout	Posted - 2010.08.08 00:22:00 - [114] Edited by: GateScout on 08/08/2010 00:22:22 Awesome. Simply awesome. Moving PLEX in a kestral while war dec'd. That's priceless.
Demitrios Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.08 00:48:00 - [115] Originally by: Wave Nagai Originally by: Aessoroz Over $1000 down the drain. Not exactly. It goes straight into CCP's wallet. Soooo, yea, down the drain.
Apollo Gabriel Domini Lex Talionis Etherium Cartel	Posted - 2010.08.08 00:50:00 - [116] I have no direct knowledge of how they work now, but you should get a warning when you undock if you have plex in your cargo. If you do not, then CCP should fix it now. You get warnings for slaves, etc ... If I had to guess, I would say they guy did a control + A and undocked, not thinking for a moment... Horrifying, truly horrifying. Real Cash shouldn't burn in game. TO CCP: The implicit promise of polished quality keeps me playing through the rough times. Don't let the Trolls keep you from your goals.
Bacon Slapper Minmatar Red Federation	Posted - 2010.08.08 00:54:00 - [117] So.. according to some of the posters here. If I pay 20 dollars to play paintball on a companies fields/scenarios for the day, 50 for paintballs and CO2 or nitro. Walk to the fort - capture the flag course and decide to casually dance up to the fort while listening to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjW1iq4IO2k on my walkman before being cut down in an overwhelming hail of flying paint. I can accuse the company of fraud because I have to sit out for an hour or until the match ends, instead of playing paintball. I can probably get like 5 bucks back, or they go to jail!! Thanks for the tip guys!
RifterDrifter They Found Oil On Your Anus	Posted - 2010.08.08 00:55:00 - [118] Originally by: Apollo Gabriel I have no direct knowledge of how they work now, but you should get a warning when you undock if you have plex in your cargo. He didn't undock, he got popped by Wartargets after warping to 4-4 before he could dock. _______________________________________________
veltorse	Posted - 2010.08.08 00:58:00 - [119] CCP gains money from people buying gtc's and turning them into plex or actually paying for 2 plex's from the site people who sell the said plex make isk this guy who most likely bought all the plex's to sell at other places to earn profit just lossed 22bil isk and now feels the same way as some one who lost a Titan until either He or a corp who knows what exactly happened or ccp's can actually verify what happened it stands as CCP=win people(s) who sold the plex's= win dumb**** who undocked with 22bil worth of cargo in jita in something that so fragile= epic lose
Anitta Blake Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.08 01:04:00 - [120] I fully support the change in Game Mechanics that removed the restriction on undocking from a station with a PLEX making them a Destroyable item. but given the the number of 30 day Pilot's License's that may be Destroyed as a result of the new mechanics adding up to thousands of dollars. I feel cpp should give a percentage of the profit in this case to a charity due the the fact it no longer has to honor 30 days of game time that was paid up front when the plex was purchased. add your support for this proposal

Achlua	Posted - 2010.08.08 01:15:00 - [121] Just try to think of it a different way. I single 30 day plex is worth 300 mil. A 30 day time code costs me $15. Therefor, using simple math, anyone with a 5th grade education can deduct that ANY in-game item is worth plain hard cash. That makes the drake I fly around in worth about $5 fitted. That makes the Raven I fly around in about $10 fitted. It's the same as any other item, sure the loss hurt, but it's the same value as... say.. a stack of faction mods.
Quaaid Caldari Light Adama	Posted - 2010.08.08 01:19:00 - [122] Edited by: Quaaid on 08/08/2010 01:20:13 I was writing this long post about the PLEX system and customer protection and my views on how things should work but then I realized that my only real regret here is not being online in time to get on the killmail. God help my soul. - - - - - My Ransom Face
NoScream Amarr Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers The 0rphanage	Posted - 2010.08.08 01:21:00 - [123] Originally by: Anitta Blake I feel cpp should give a percentage of the profit in this case to a charity add your support for this proposal what better than to the Orphanage? (You should keep what you kill) It's a game.... like no other. The cost of a PLEX is like everything else, it has no more or less value than the work you put into getting it. 22B is a weeks trading for some or a few ship sales for others & for the odd one, a credit card invoice. IF anyone were to benefit it should be the players that got the kill. Naughty Naughty !!
Sol Lethe	Posted - 2010.08.08 01:21:00 - [124] I don't think the point of contention in most people's minds is that that the plex can be destroyed, it's the manner in which it is destroyed. The destuction of an item is a game mechanic and it's 'supposed' to be completely random, but the player base will never know if the chance is slightly less (read: next to zero) than it should be for this particular item. ;) It makes you question their motives when they claim to want to remove the special properties from an item, but fail to remove the one property that makes it special in the first place: it cannot be spawned within the game world without paying money for it.
Dzajic Gallente	Posted - 2010.08.08 01:21:00 - [125] PLEX is not "just like any other in game item". It is a very special thingy, bough by real world money, and ultimately only usable to purchase a real world service. There was never and could never be any other reason to PLEX change other than to have them destroyed in game, directly creating money for CCP. Only argument you can say against is that "no matter how many people get killed with 22Bn in PLEXs its still not that much money". Small note about corporate greed. World of Warcraft earns Activision around $2Bn per year. And yet they created quite a ruckus by having Blizzard sell a special mount for $25, there was rage and flames and "WOW is dying" all over the forums and net. They totally made a couple million dollars, maybe 10-20 at max. In a game that makes ~$2,000,000,000 a year, that is below the margin of error, and was still worth doing. CCP here is working with far more subscribers and far lower profits and ROI. So if they can make a couple extra mill per year trough PLEXes being destroyed in game... And if CCP wants even more cash on it, we could easily see PLEXEs only being redeemable on some stations, and only being able to add to game time on other stations, forcing people to move them. Polished content =/= broken and unbalanced content.
kurg	Posted - 2010.08.08 01:22:00 - [126] This is why im such a huge advocate of Natural Selection, stupid runs strong in the Eve community!
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.08 01:33:00 - [127] Originally by: Dzajic PLEX is not "just like any other in game item". It is a very special thingy, bough by real world money, and ultimately only usable to purchase a real world service. The fac that it can be used for a number of different purposes kind of belies this assertion. Quote: There was never and could never be any other reason to PLEX change other than to have them destroyed in game, directly creating money for CCP. There is no change. PLEXes have always been destroyable. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
David Grogan Gallente	Posted - 2010.08.08 01:42:00 - [128] Edited by: David Grogan on 08/08/2010 01:41:52 Originally by: andeira http://ad0pt.evekb.co.uk/?a=kill_related&kll_id=1539031 api verified there happy happy joy joy for ccp that has to be one of the worst looking killboards ever. tell the guy/gal that designed that they FAIL its poor colour + bad layout makes it closable after 2 seconds due to ifailatwebpagedesignitis seriously horrible webpage skills SIG: if my message has spelling errors its cos i fail at typing properly :P
0oO0oOoOo0o	Posted - 2010.08.08 01:50:00 - [129] Originally by: Achlua Just try to think of it a different way. I single 30 day plex is worth 300 mil. A 30 day time code costs me $15. Therefor, using simple math, anyone with a 5th grade education can deduct that ANY in-game item is worth plain hard cash. That makes the drake I fly around in worth about $5 fitted. That makes the Raven I fly around in about $10 fitted. It's the same as any other item, sure the loss hurt, but it's the same value as... say.. a stack of faction mods. There is a little diffrence though. The Drake might be worth 5$, but it belongs to CCP, like any ingame item. CCP can take away your Drake whenever they like and you can't do **** about it. CCP can't take away your PLEX though. If they did, you could sue and get your money back under like every legal system in the world. All that idiots who claim that PLEXes are like any other ingame items simply have no clue about legal things. A PLEX has an impact on the contractual relationship between you and CCP, the other items don't. If it were just an item like every thing else that solely belongs to CCP, it couldn't do that. A plex consist of a) the right to be granted 30 days and b) the pixel graphics, by which it is represented. Any other ingame item consists only of b) and has no a), thats the diffrence.
ShadowandLight Amarr Doom Guard Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.08.08 01:50:00 - [130] posting in a thread-naught! ------- "The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1 Hoist the Colors!

Demitrios Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.08 01:51:00 - [131] oh, and fyi, plex's do drop. Quote: 2010.08.08 01:48:00 Victim: Demitrios Corp: Di-Tron Heavy Industries Alliance: Atlas Alliance Faction: Unknown Destroyed: Bestower System: **** Security: 0.0 Damage Taken: 2995 Involved parties: Name: Angel Seizer / Archangels (laid the final blow) Damage Done: 2995 Destroyed items: 30 Day Pilot's License Extension (PLEX), Qty: 101 (Cargo) Dropped items: 30 Day Pilot's License Extension (PLEX), Qty: 4299899 (Cargo) Granted its a sisi loss, but getting them to drop is more than possible.
HarrietMiers Native Freshfood	Posted - 2010.08.08 01:56:00 - [132] Pwnt. Nothing else to say really, though the butthurt in this thread is getting silly. This isn't lag people, this is one moron making a series of bad decisions and the rest of the community pointing and laughing. The white knights in here are either trolling or need to find another game.
Sroasa Gallente Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2010.08.08 02:14:00 - [133] Originally by: ShadowandLight posting in a thread-naught! Posting in a WIDOT thread.
San Severina Minmatar One Point 0	Posted - 2010.08.08 02:22:00 - [134] Plex should always drop, I mean rly, it's just way too sus to have them not drop. Who gains? __________________________________________________ No sympathy for the Devil! Always remember that....
RifterDrifter They Found Oil On Your Anus	Posted - 2010.08.08 02:34:00 - [135] Edited by: RifterDrifter on 08/08/2010 02:35:23 Originally by: San Severina Plex should always drop, I mean rly, it's just way too sus to have them not drop. Who gains? Personally i think all kinds of loot should always drop 100%. All those mods that get destroyed are just a terrible waste. Maybe i should make a thread about it and beg to CCP for compensation. _______________________________________________
Neo Omni Gallente	Posted - 2010.08.08 03:37:00 - [136] Originally by: San Severina Plex should always drop, I mean rly, it's just way too sus to have them not drop. Who gains? CCP gaines. They no longer have to honor the time for the plex, but they still keep the cash.
BeachParty Caldari Semi Precious	Posted - 2010.08.08 03:42:00 - [137] If anyone has the heart, contract that pilot a new Kestral.
Jessica Lanson	Posted - 2010.08.08 03:48:00 - [138] So I hear this was a war target killed by mercs? If only the victims had a large stack of plex or ISK to hire their own ... oh wait.
Denidil Gallente Rape Pillage and Burn	Posted - 2010.08.08 03:49:00 - [139] Originally by: ShadowandLight posting in a thread-naught! hell dude.. you STARTED the threadnaught. oh and to all the "waaa waa real world money behind waa waa" farking QQ more. would i be **ed if plexes belonging to me got popped? yes who would i **ed at? myself for being a moron. as for the "waa waa CCP greedy, no other reason to do this people": every special treatment item in the game creates complexities that can introduce bugs. by eliminating this class of "Special item" from the game they eliminate a potential source of bugs and exploits.
BuckStrider Fleem Co	Posted - 2010.08.08 03:55:00 - [140] First off, I'll Say this.....AWWWWWWW...Someone call a WAAAAAAAAAbulance for the complete moron that even did what he did...Hey, It's legal Second, Eff Yoo CCP for your money grab scam...While this will probably be the biggest you'll ever see, it should have never been implemented in the first place..My guess is your starting to loose players (and profit/capital) and thats why this 'feature' was enabled Third goes to 0rphanage....Awesome kill, please don't do it again...Other than 22B in game losses and it really does look sweet on your killboard, you didnt gain anything other than make CCP laugh at getting free money...Oh and the whole 4 points on your kb. Kill guys with a crapload of ships ad mods...not with a bunch of Plexes

Atticus Fynch Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2010.08.08 03:58:00 - [141] Originally by: BuckStrider First off, I'll Say this.....AWWWWWWW...Someone call a WAAAAAAAAAbulance for the complete moron that even did what he did...Hey, It's legal Second, Eff Yoo CCP for your money grab scam...While this will probably be the biggest you'll ever see, it should have never been implemented in the first place..My guess is your starting to loose players (and profit/capital) and thats why this 'feature' was enabled Third goes to 0rphanage....Awesome kill, please don't do it again...Other than 22B in game losses and it really does look sweet on your killboard, you didnt gain anything other than make CCP laugh at getting free money...Oh and the whole 4 points on your kb. Kill guys with a crapload of ships ad mods...not with a bunch of Plexes ^this
Koyama Ise Caldari	Posted - 2010.08.08 03:58:00 - [142] I'm surrounded by idiots. Morons who can't add one to two. Excuse me while I go kill myself. ______________________________ There is not enough EVE Online in your toast.
Denidil Gallente Rape Pillage and Burn	Posted - 2010.08.08 03:59:00 - [143] Originally by: BuckStrider Second, Eff Yoo CCP for your money grab scam QQ moar in other games where you can buy ingame items for real world money is it a scam when they get destroyed? if you could pay $5 for an Imperial Navy Apoc would it be a scam when you get blown away because you're a freaking idiot and warped to 50km on Jita 4-4 while wardec'ed?
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.08 04:00:00 - [144] Originally by: Koyama Ise I'm surrounded by idiots. Morons who can't add one to two. Excuse me while I go kill myself. Stuff! Gimme!! Before it's too late!!! ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Barkaial Starfinder Minmatar The Kairos Syndicate	Posted - 2010.08.08 04:15:00 - [145] The only thing wrong here is that drops are calculated on whole stacks. Maybe they should calculate drops of portions or % of stacks, and some PLEXes might drop Who ever get plexes and travel with them is accepting the risk for selling somewhere else for profit.
LittleTerror Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.08.08 04:16:00 - [146] Damn I kind of feel bad for the guy humm no I don't. HAHAHAHAHAHA
alittlebirdy	Posted - 2010.08.08 04:34:00 - [147] Originally by: Sky Marshal And to the idiot just before, compare with a car is not a good analogy. Aw why cause it hurts your case? Nice fail english btw. You do not BUY a PLEX you buy a GTC, you then CONVERT THE GTC to a plex. You are not then paying money for a plex, you are paying money for a gtc you are trading the GTC for a plex. Don't see what is so hard to understand about it, that is it, CCP sold you a GTC, you did what you wanted with that CODE. It aint cash > plex it is cash > GTC > plex.
Marconus Orion D00M. Excessum Messor	Posted - 2010.08.08 04:35:00 - [148] How will Space Monkeys fund the 50+ lag bubbles they use on the entrance system to their space now? All that farming gone down the tube. Any official Space Monkey statement?
Inquisitor Mikko	Posted - 2010.08.08 05:27:00 - [149] Do some people forget so easily?! Risk = Reward How much would this player of made if he managed to get to his destination and complete whatever trade it was?? Unfortunately the ship and fitting increased the risk somewhat, and the flying of the pilot from the sound of things.. Also many of you were crying out that the game was too easy, too easy to make good isk, well here is some more risk. As said before, No-one is making you undock, if you want the gametime you will activate it straight away, if you want to take a risk and try and profit, then accept those risks.. Simples squeak
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.08.08 05:58:00 - [150] A lot of people seem to confuse GTC's with Plex. GTC's have a monetary value, can get a refund (I believe) for that value, and are redeemable for game time or can be converted into an in game item called a plex (2 actually). These are not destructible in game. At the point of conversion into in game items (2 PLEX) the GTC loses all monetary value. A PLEX has no monetary value, nor can be refunded for money. It is simply a valueless in game item like all other in game items. If the person in question bought the PLEX from someone else, he spent valueless in game money to purchase them. If the person in question converted multiple GTC's into PLEX's, he voluntarily negated any real world value the GTC had and transformed them into a valueless item he could sell in game for equally valueless game money. If the point of buying the original GTC's was for the person in question to extend his game time, he would never have converted/moved the PLEX's to begin with... although strictly speaking their intentions are completely irrelevant as to the discussion of whether a PLEX has any kind of real world value. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.

Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.08.08 06:00:00 - [151] Originally by: Ranger 1 A lot of people seem to confuse GTC's with Plex. GTC's have a monetary value, can get a refund (I believe) for that value, and are redeemable for game time or can be converted into an in game item called a plex (2 actually). These are not destructible in game. At the point of conversion into in game items (2 PLEX) the GTC loses all monetary value. A PLEX has no monetary value, nor can be refunded for money. It is simply a valueless in game item like all other in game items. If the person in question bought the PLEX from someone else, he spent valueless in game money to purchase them. If the person in question converted multiple GTC's into PLEX's, he voluntarily negated any real world value the GTC had and transformed them into a valueless item he could sell in game for equally valueless game money. If the point of buying the original GTC's was for the person in question to extend his game time, he would never have converted/moved the PLEX's to begin with... although strictly speaking their intentions are completely irrelevant as to the discussion of whether a PLEX has any kind of real world value. And for all you just said 74 accounts will never be extended by those plex. Ever. Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.08.08 06:20:00 - [152] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 08/08/2010 06:21:07 Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Ranger 1 A lot of people seem to confuse GTC's with Plex. GTC's have a monetary value, can get a refund (I believe) for that value, and are redeemable for game time or can be converted into an in game item called a plex (2 actually). These are not destructible in game. At the point of conversion into in game items (2 PLEX) the GTC loses all monetary value. A PLEX has no monetary value, nor can be refunded for money. It is simply a valueless in game item like all other in game items. If the person in question bought the PLEX from someone else, he spent valueless in game money to purchase them. If the person in question converted multiple GTC's into PLEX's, he voluntarily negated any real world value the GTC had and transformed them into a valueless item he could sell in game for equally valueless game money. If the point of buying the original GTC's was for the person in question to extend his game time, he would never have converted/moved the PLEX's to begin with... although strictly speaking their intentions are completely irrelevant as to the discussion of whether a PLEX has any kind of real world value. And for all you just said 74 accounts will never be extended by those plex. Ever. Correct, which has literally no significance because the moment they were converted into PLEX they lost all real world value. Does CCP keep the money paid for the GTCs? Of course, they provided the GTC's as per the transaction. Their part in this comic tragedy is over. Does a player get 6 years of game time? No, because someone in their lust for worthless game money got both greedy and stupid (which, of course, happens every day in EVE). ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Halcyon Ingenium Caldari Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse	Posted - 2010.08.08 06:45:00 - [153] Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 08/08/2010 06:21:07 Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Ranger 1 A lot of people seem to confuse GTC's with Plex. GTC's have a monetary value, can get a refund (I believe) for that value, and are redeemable for game time or can be converted into an in game item called a plex (2 actually). These are not destructible in game. At the point of conversion into in game items (2 PLEX) the GTC loses all monetary value. A PLEX has no monetary value, nor can be refunded for money. It is simply a valueless in game item like all other in game items. If the person in question bought the PLEX from someone else, he spent valueless in game money to purchase them. If the person in question converted multiple GTC's into PLEX's, he voluntarily negated any real world value the GTC had and transformed them into a valueless item he could sell in game for equally valueless game money. If the point of buying the original GTC's was for the person in question to extend his game time, he would never have converted/moved the PLEX's to begin with... although strictly speaking their intentions are completely irrelevant as to the discussion of whether a PLEX has any kind of real world value. And for all you just said 74 accounts will never be extended by those plex. Ever. Correct, which has literally no significance because the moment they were converted into PLEX they lost all real world value. Does CCP keep the money paid for the GTCs? Of course, they provided the GTC's as per the transaction. Their part in this comic tragedy is over. Does a player get 6 years of game time? No, because someone in their lust for worthless game money got both greedy and stupid (which, of course, happens every day in EVE). This. A million times this.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.08.08 07:01:00 - [154] Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 08/08/2010 06:21:07 Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Ranger 1 A lot of people seem to confuse GTC's with Plex. GTC's have a monetary value, can get a refund (I believe) for that value, and are redeemable for game time or can be converted into an in game item called a plex (2 actually). These are not destructible in game. At the point of conversion into in game items (2 PLEX) the GTC loses all monetary value. A PLEX has no monetary value, nor can be refunded for money. It is simply a valueless in game item like all other in game items. If the person in question bought the PLEX from someone else, he spent valueless in game money to purchase them. If the person in question converted multiple GTC's into PLEX's, he voluntarily negated any real world value the GTC had and transformed them into a valueless item he could sell in game for equally valueless game money. If the point of buying the original GTC's was for the person in question to extend his game time, he would never have converted/moved the PLEX's to begin with... although strictly speaking their intentions are completely irrelevant as to the discussion of whether a PLEX has any kind of real world value. And for all you just said 74 accounts will never be extended by those plex. Ever. Correct, which has literally no significance because the moment they were converted into PLEX they lost all real world value. Does CCP keep the money paid for the GTCs? Of course, they provided the GTC's as per the transaction. Their part in this comic tragedy is over. Does a player get 6 years of game time? No, because someone in their lust for worthless game money got both greedy and stupid (which, of course, happens every day in EVE). Again, after all that a player is down 74 plex some gankers are out of luck on the 74 plex due to the crap drop and ccp is up $1295 usd they didn't have to provide any services for. Yarr indeed. Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
suzi tzuke	Posted - 2010.08.08 07:02:00 - [155] Quite simply ....ccp are stealing
Atticus Fynch Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2010.08.08 07:07:00 - [156] Originally by: suzi tzuke Quite simply ....ccp are stealing CCP...the ultimate pirate.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.08.08 07:08:00 - [157] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 08/08/2010 07:12:47 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 08/08/2010 07:10:26 Quote: Again, after all that a player is down 74 plex some gankers are out of luck on the 74 plex due to the crap drop and ccp is up $1295 usd they didn't have to provide any services for. Yarr indeed. YARRRR!! So? If someone wants to convert $1295 worth of GTC's into worthless in game items and subsequently get them blown up, who cares? A GTC's value is in money. A PLEX's value is only in isk. And can you really call it a gank when the "victim" was at war? Quote: Quite simply ....ccp are stealing CCP upheld it's end of the transaction, someone else pulled the trigger and hoped to reap a (in real world terms) valueless in game reward. I don't think stealing enters into the equation. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.08.08 07:13:00 - [158] Originally by: Ranger 1 Quote: Again, after all that a player is down 74 plex some gankers are out of luck on the 74 plex due to the crap drop and ccp is up $1295 usd they didn't have to provide any services for. Yarr indeed. So? If some to convert $1295 worth of GTC's into worthless in game items and subsequently get them blown up, who cares? Well I personally don't care as its eve after all and I certainly didn't lose my arse over it. Besides it was only 22 bil and that ain't much more than a speck of shiat in a thimble nowadays. But I'm sure the guy at ccp who convinced the management to impliment this feature and is going to get a nice fat bonus out of it surely cares. Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
Zaerlorth Maelkor The Maverick Navy IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.08 07:14:00 - [159] Originally by: Steve Celeste Would have been a nice drop, too bad that CCP set the drop chance for that item to ABSOLUTELY ZERO 0% drop chance? You base this statistics on one kill? two kills? The reason why all 74 got destroyed is because they were stacked. Stacked items count as one item when drops are measured out. However, you might want to consider a few things, first of all; I now have one of those annoying sigs. second; you should probably move on to some more interesting things than reading this sig.
Serpents smile	Posted - 2010.08.08 07:19:00 - [160] Originally by: suzi tzuke Quite simply ....ccp are stealing No they are not. The, and I like to nominate aystra for "biggest EVE fool of the year 2010Ö" flying around with 74 plex's in a tin can while being wardecced stole from himself. As said before, greed makes people stupid. /o\

Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.08.08 07:20:00 - [161] Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Ranger 1 Quote: Again, after all that a player is down 74 plex some gankers are out of luck on the 74 plex due to the crap drop and ccp is up $1295 usd they didn't have to provide any services for. Yarr indeed. So? If some to convert $1295 worth of GTC's into worthless in game items and subsequently get them blown up, who cares? Well I personally don't care as its eve after all and I certainly didn't lose my arse over it. Besides it was only 22 bil and that ain't much more than a speck of shiat in a thimble nowadays. But I'm sure the guy at ccp who convinced the management to impliment this feature and is going to get a nice fat bonus out of it surely cares. Perhaps they are switching over to a commission basis. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Trygonus	Posted - 2010.08.08 07:40:00 - [162] The loss mail comments is starting to get pretty awsome as more monkeys find out about it.
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express The Spire Collective	Posted - 2010.08.08 07:49:00 - [163] Just because we can do a thing, doesn't mean we should do that thing. I can't understand why anyone would carry a PLEX. Just wait til you get there then make it. After all they can be made in NPC stations and outposts now too. Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts. Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. -Mitnal
GrandMaster JAX	Posted - 2010.08.08 08:07:00 - [164] It warms my nonexistent heart when i hear about crushing someones hopes and dreams in such an epic manner.
Queen Athena	Posted - 2010.08.08 08:37:00 - [165] Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 08/08/2010 07:12:47 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 08/08/2010 07:10:26 Quote: Again, after all that a player is down 74 plex some gankers are out of luck on the 74 plex due to the crap drop and ccp is up $1295 usd they didn't have to provide any services for. Yarr indeed. YARRRR!! So? If someone wants to convert $1295 worth of GTC's into worthless in game items and subsequently get them blown up, who cares? A GTC's value is in money. A PLEX's value is only in isk. And can you really call it a gank when the "victim" was at war? Quote: Quite simply ....ccp are stealing CCP upheld it's end of the transaction, someone else pulled the trigger and hoped to reap a (in real world terms) valueless in game reward. I don't think stealing enters into the equation. You do not get how this game works do you... If I sell you 74 plex, sure I can buy in game goods that can get blown up, but you still have 74 plex with which CCP needs to honor. This is completely different, this is a systematic built in way of CCP issuing bearer bonds in the form of game time, bearer bonds which is a pre-paid contract and then cutting out liabilities using a drop rate system they engineer. This is the same as the numbers game in uptown New York in the 30's, the same as Enron when they wrote liabilities between divisions and then disbanded them, the same as if today you lost your cell phone and AT&T or Verizon said you had no account since you lost the phone. It is bad business practice at its worst. I never once thought having plex in game was a good idea, it blurs the lines and violates their very own EULA. What we have here is theft, its a liability write off plan that plan stinks.
Guilty Man Minmatar Guilty People	Posted - 2010.08.08 08:50:00 - [166] So, this topic is about someone, who decided to donate 1100 bucks to CCP? C'mon, people, someone is giving money to CCP, why you care?
Serpents smile	Posted - 2010.08.08 08:55:00 - [167] Originally by: Queen Athena but you still have 74 plex with which CCP needs to honor. The owner of the plex has every right to with it as he/ she pleases, within the boundaries of the EULA. Whether being selling it, using it to extend game time, trashing it or flying around in a tin can and getting blown up. The plex was payed for, from there on it's out of CCP's hands.
Koyama Ise Caldari	Posted - 2010.08.08 08:56:00 - [168] Originally by: Queen Athena I never once thought having plex in game was a good idea, it blurs the lines and violates their very own EULA. Uhh where? I can't find the clause that makes that true. In fact all parts of it I read seem to say that it does not violate their EULA. ______________________________ There is not enough EVE Online in your toast.
Your Client	Posted - 2010.08.08 09:04:00 - [169] Have we forgotten that CCP also spawns us random faction spawns, PLEX's (game "dungeons"), and officers spawns? Every week billions, if not trillions, of isk is given out by ccp for us to do as we please. Stop whining and play the game the game the way it was meant to be played. Buy your time anyway you please, just dont remove it from a station in a frig! /Argument over.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.08.08 09:07:00 - [170] OMG THIS IS A SCANDAL SOMETHING MUST BE DONE; THIS CANNOT BE; I SAY LETS SPEAK WITH OUR WALLETS LETS ALL CANCEL OUR SUBSCRIPTIONS; BUT FIRST SEND ME ALL YOUR STUFF SO I CAN KEEP IT SAFE!

WhiteSavage Gallente Ever Flow Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.08 09:19:00 - [171] every plex lost equals money in ccp's wallet. While thousands of small bugs and even large balancing issues exist... at least now plexes are "fair" right? This is exactly what CCP wanted and shame on them for being so blunt about it. This game is getting dull anyway
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.08.08 09:22:00 - [172] Originally by: WhiteSavage every plex lost equals money in ccp's wallet. While thousands of small bugs and even large balancing issues exist... at least now plexes are "fair" right? This is exactly what CCP wanted and shame on them for being so blunt about it. This game is getting dull anyway stuff haz can i?
Halcyon Ingenium Caldari Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse	Posted - 2010.08.08 09:22:00 - [173] Edited by: Halcyon Ingenium on 08/08/2010 09:23:20 So if I bought 74 plex, put it in my cargo, undocked and self destructed, then who would CCP be stealing from?
WhiteSavage Gallente Ever Flow Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.08 09:32:00 - [174] Originally by: Your Client Have we forgotten that CCP also spawns us random faction spawns, PLEX's (game "dungeons"), and officers spawns? Every week billions, if not trillions, of isk is given out by ccp for us to do as we please. Stop whining and play the game the game the way it was meant to be played. Buy your time anyway you please, just dont remove it from a station in a frig! /Argument over. plexes may equal isk for one but for others and more specifically ccp it equals gametime. Plexes are used up by... gametime. Thus for every plex lost, another must be bought/another character subscription payed for. And that is the only reason CCP implemented this change. Sucking the idiots dry is one thing. But when major issues are going untouched and the developer is going way out of the way to grab as much dough from us as possible... bad sign.
WhiteSavage Gallente Ever Flow Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.08 09:36:00 - [175] Originally by: Halcyon Ingenium Edited by: Halcyon Ingenium on 08/08/2010 09:23:20 So if I bought 74 plex, put it in my cargo, undocked and self destructed, then who would CCP be stealing from? Well then CCP would have designed quite a process where you would end up just giving them money. ...wait
Bomberlocks Minmatar CTRL-Q	Posted - 2010.08.08 09:37:00 - [176] To the guy who undocked with 74 PLEX in his hold, in a frigate, in Jita, without an insta-undock: What exactly did you think would happen? To the guys who ganked him: You might have the gotten the biggest monetary gank of all time in Eve, but you still got nothing. Jokes on you as much as on him. To CCP: While it's fun to see a game play to people's darker sides, I wouldn't be surprised if you just lost a customer there (although you probably got more out of him than he would have given you for the lifetime of eve anyway).
thoth rothschild Method of Destruction The 0rphanage	Posted - 2010.08.08 09:44:00 - [177] Edited by: thoth rothschild on 08/08/2010 09:45:33 It was a docking attemp :p
StarRanger Gallente Royal Star Ranger Family Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2010.08.08 10:04:00 - [178] sweet lord, lol. mission accomplish: DO EPIC STUFF! -
Aerilis Gallente Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2010.08.08 10:04:00 - [179] Wow this really makes me uneasy... For CCP to have just made more than a grand from a frigate gank... Oh and to all those who say PLEX has no real life value, only ISK value. You're sorely mistaken. The value of an item is not deemed by some fine print in the EULA, the value of any item, virtual or real, is determined by what PEOPLE THINK IT IS WORTH. Nothing else. If everyone in the world thinks pennies are more valuable then nickels, guess what? They will become more valuable then nickels, regardless of what the U.S. Mint says about the value of pennies.
Frozean	Posted - 2010.08.08 10:13:00 - [180] As i always say Its futile to deal with dumb people. They drag you down to their level, and beat you with experience. Blaming CCP for PLEX being destroyed in a ship, is like blaming the bank for cheating on you, Because if you burn your money it will get burned. Undocking PLEX in a ship is as bad as burning money with your stove. Hence, the bank is wrong for releasing money

Exxter Evox	Posted - 2010.08.08 10:17:00 - [181] With a Cargo this worthy my only comment is "wrong ship, wrong time to undock." :) Its not like that in high-traffic-hours all little frigs with cargo values above 80 mil are instant popped.
Halcyon Ingenium Caldari Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse	Posted - 2010.08.08 10:17:00 - [182] Originally by: Aerilis The value of an item is not deemed by some fine print in the EULA, the value of any item, virtual or real, is determined by what PEOPLE THINK IT IS WORTH. Nothing else. If everyone in the world thinks pennies are more valuable then nickels, guess what? They will become more valuable then nickels, regardless of what the U.S. Mint says about the value of pennies. Well no, the U.S. Mint says it is worth 1/100th of a dollar, and therefore no bank is going to give you any more or less than a dollar if you give them 100 pennies. If people are buying or selling them as items, then they have ceased to be money. Likewise, even if all the players of EVE agreed that plex's were worth actual money, that doesn't mean you can get a line of credit at a real bank based on the number of plexes you have. You would have to convert them to GTC, sell them to someone for some form of currency a bank would accept, and then deposit that currency. You can think it is worth anything you want, and others can agree with you, but that bubble bursts the moment you have to deal with someone who disagrees as to the "worth" of your tulips, I mean in game items. Some things do have intrinsic value, but sorry, plex just isn't on that list.
Aerilis Gallente Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2010.08.08 10:21:00 - [183] Originally by: Frozean As i always say Its futile to deal with dumb people. They drag you down to their level, and beat you with experience. Blaming CCP for PLEX being destroyed in a ship, is like blaming the bank for cheating on you, Because if you burn your money it will get burned. Undocking PLEX in a ship is as bad as burning money with your stove. Hence, the bank is wrong for releasing money The bank went out of their way to give you highly flammable money when they could have just as easily given you fireproof money. Then they gave you matches. Sure, you're still a dumb **** for actually burning the money, but the bank is going out of its way to make this scenario more likely.
Aerilis Gallente Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2010.08.08 10:28:00 - [184] Originally by: Halcyon Ingenium Originally by: Aerilis The value of an item is not deemed by some fine print in the EULA, the value of any item, virtual or real, is determined by what PEOPLE THINK IT IS WORTH. Nothing else. If everyone in the world thinks pennies are more valuable then nickels, guess what? They will become more valuable then nickels, regardless of what the U.S. Mint says about the value of pennies. Well no, the U.S. Mint says it is worth 1/100th of a dollar, and therefore no bank is going to give you any more or less than a dollar if you give them 100 pennies. If people are buying or selling them as items, then they have ceased to be money. Likewise, even if all the players of EVE agreed that plex's were worth actual money, that doesn't mean you can get a line of credit at a real bank based on the number of plexes you have. You would have to convert them to GTC, sell them to someone for some form of currency a bank would accept, and then deposit that currency. You can think it is worth anything you want, and others can agree with you, but that bubble bursts the moment you have to deal with someone who disagrees as to the "worth" of your tulips, I mean in game items. Some things do have intrinsic value, but sorry, plex just isn't on that list. Heh you dived pretty deep into that one :) You argue intelligently though, and for that you have my respect. The point I was trying to make, though, was that PLEX perform the same function as GTC's. Both PLEX's and GTC's attain their value from one thing and one thing only--their ability to extend a person's Eve subscription. But here's where you're right--established law and institutions and fine print do have a say in the value of items, which is why CCP is only stealing in the ethical sense and not the legal sense.
Jim Hazard	Posted - 2010.08.08 10:33:00 - [185] First of all i want to say that that guy was really asking for it and deserved to die there. I also do not have anything against the changes they made, since you still only can lose get blown up like that by your own stupidity. Still anyone who is thinking that ccp did make the changes without thinking about making more profit is a total ******. Why did ccp make them unmovable in the first place? Because they know about ppl¦s stupidity and they knew about suicide ganking and all the risks involved when you undock with "gametime" in your cargohold. Actually when plexes where added into the game they did anything to actually "protect" the stupid customers. The only reason to make the change was to make more money. Which is allright for me... ccp is a profit oriented company and not some wellfare club. Still when you believe that PR crap that the changes where made just to make plexes like any other item your not really smarter than ppl who get blown up with plexes in their cargohold.
Zoloft Rx Ever Flow Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.08 10:38:00 - [186] Do you get a warning message before you undock with a plex(s)? If so, its your own fault if youget popped and lose them. If theres no warning, there should be, so when you do get popped for moving mass amounts of plex(s) around, we can laugh at you without a long discussion like this.
Halcyon Ingenium Caldari Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse	Posted - 2010.08.08 10:44:00 - [187] Originally by: Aerilis Originally by: Halcyon Ingenium Originally by: Aerilis The value of an item is not deemed by some fine print in the EULA, the value of any item, virtual or real, is determined by what PEOPLE THINK IT IS WORTH. Nothing else. If everyone in the world thinks pennies are more valuable then nickels, guess what? They will become more valuable then nickels, regardless of what the U.S. Mint says about the value of pennies. Well no, the U.S. Mint says it is worth 1/100th of a dollar, and therefore no bank is going to give you any more or less than a dollar if you give them 100 pennies. If people are buying or selling them as items, then they have ceased to be money. Likewise, even if all the players of EVE agreed that plex's were worth actual money, that doesn't mean you can get a line of credit at a real bank based on the number of plexes you have. You would have to convert them to GTC, sell them to someone for some form of currency a bank would accept, and then deposit that currency. You can think it is worth anything you want, and others can agree with you, but that bubble bursts the moment you have to deal with someone who disagrees as to the "worth" of your tulips, I mean in game items. Some things do have intrinsic value, but sorry, plex just isn't on that list. Heh you dived pretty deep into that one :) You argue intelligently though, and for that you have my respect. The point I was trying to make, though, was that PLEX perform the same function as GTC's. Both PLEX's and GTC's attain their value from one thing and one thing only--their ability to extend a person's Eve subscription. But here's where you're right--established law and institutions and fine print do have a say in the value of items, which is why CCP is only stealing in the ethical sense and not the legal sense. I can't agree that it is an ethical violation, choice was implicitly involved in every step that lead to the plex destruction, and the last choice that involved CCP was in the sale of plex to whoever bought them originally. It was a player that undocked with those plex's, and another player that hit the F1 that activated his weapon system. The players were complicit in the destruction of that plex. I can only concede that this is a poor choice of move as far as PR goes between CCP and its player base, at least the portion of players that see this as an ethical violation. Not making the drop rate for plex in a ship destruction equal that of other items is hypocritical however, considering their whole stance on wanting all items to be the same. But a minor hypocrisy and poor PR hardly justifies accusing someone of thievery, and using hyperbole for purposes of libel toward the end of manipulation of that same player base certainly doesn't make for a strong moral high ground.
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.08.08 10:46:00 - [188] I CBAed to read this whole thread. I'm sure much whining and rage spawned over the last 7 pages. All I want to add is this: To the victim: You, sir, are a moron. To the attackers: Great job, how ****ed where you when they didnt drop ? ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
Spurty Caldari D00M. Excessum Messor	Posted - 2010.08.08 10:48:00 - [189] He probably earned the isk for that lot running plexes. Doubtful he paid real life ISK for them. Seems he was collecting buy orders. He may have scammed them all for 300isk too. Too many unknowns to care and to be honest, Monkeys own some 0.0 space. Owning 0.0 space does allow you to get very fat wallets. Entirely Possible they looked at the loss and just went 'meh', we'll go get some later. Nothing is wrong with this picture.
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2010.08.08 10:49:00 - [190] Originally by: Zoloft Rx Do you get a warning message before you undock with a plex(s)? If so, its your own fault if youget popped and lose them. If theres no warning, there should be, so when you do get popped for moving mass amounts of plex(s) around, we can laugh at you without a long discussion like this. You are being naive. There are warnings and the guys losing them on kills like these are mostly traders and not people interested in the gametime. The long discussions are going to happen no matter what at this point. Just lean back in your comfy chair and enjoy the trolling and idiocy.

Zoloft Rx Ever Flow Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.08 10:56:00 - [191] Originally by: Destination SkillQueue Originally by: Zoloft Rx Do you get a warning message before you undock with a plex(s)? If so, its your own fault if youget popped and lose them. If theres no warning, there should be, so when you do get popped for moving mass amounts of plex(s) around, we can laugh at you without a long discussion like this. You are being naive. There are warnings and the guys losing them on kills like these are mostly traders and not people interested in the gametime. The long discussions are going to happen no matter what at this point. Just lean back in your comfy chair and enjoy the trolling and idiocy. HAHA! So if there IS a warning, he knew the risk of undocking with them... even if he's a trader. Perfectly legitimate kill then. Sounds like trading isn't this guy's strong point. BTW.. how do you know my chair is comfy? you got eyes on me??
Giovanni DalleBandeNere Two Brothers Mining Corp. R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.08.08 11:31:00 - [192] that loss hurts! agree on the fact that he was a stupid to move the 74 plex, xpecially in a cyno frig -.- what i ask is..do that kind of "loot" actually drops sometimes? 'cause if it does, everything's fine (xcept that dude ^_^;), if it doesn't well..then there's a problem
Marlona Sky D00M. Excessum Messor	Posted - 2010.08.08 11:36:00 - [193] Originally by: Spurty He probably earned the isk for that lot running plexes. Doubtful he paid real life ISK for them. Seems he was collecting buy orders. He may have scammed them all for 300isk too. Too many unknowns to care and to be honest, Monkeys own some 0.0 space. Owning 0.0 space does allow you to get very fat wallets. Entirely Possible they looked at the loss and just went 'meh', we'll go get some later. Nothing is wrong with this picture. Probably going 'Meh'? Not exactly. Everyone have a look at the loss mail on their Killboard and read the comments. More exciting than COAD.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2010.08.08 12:00:00 - [194] Edited by: Rakshasa Taisab on 08/08/2010 12:06:28 Originally by: ChYph3r: 2010-08-08 11:01:34 Stop making comments right now! It is being petitioned and when it is reversed I will see to it all kill boards have this exploit removed. The threads featuring this kill are also being petitioned. So everyone relax and chill out. Originally by: ChYph3r: 2010-08-08 11:05:22 Also if you don't chill I will see to it personally you are removed from monkey space never to be allowed back. The guy was unlucky and that in combination with 0rphanage exploiting lag in Kits this happened. So back off. Everyone is allowed to make a mistake. Pure comedy gold. I also am unlucky when undocking with 22B ISK worth in my kestrel, and will petition my mom for making me stupid. Originally by: Marlona Sky Probably going 'Meh'? Not exactly. Everyone have a look at the loss mail on their Killboard and read the comments. More exciting than COAD. People who go 'meh' at these kinds of losses usually know a bit more about protecting assets.
Denidil Gallente Rape Pillage and Burn	Posted - 2010.08.08 12:30:00 - [195] Originally by: Giovanni DalleBandeNere that loss hurts! agree on the fact that he was a stupid to move the 74 plex, xpecially in a cyno frig -.- what i ask is..do that kind of "loot" actually drops sometimes? 'cause if it does, everything's fine (xcept that dude ^_^;), if it doesn't well..then there's a problem yes. PLEXes do drop. it's just this was a stack, and as you remember stacks get processed all at once instead of individually. some people loaded up a frig with 4 million PLEXes (unstacked) on Sisi then blew it up... 99%+ of them dropped.
Halcyon Ingenium Caldari Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse	Posted - 2010.08.08 13:01:00 - [196] Originally by: Denidil Originally by: Giovanni DalleBandeNere that loss hurts! agree on the fact that he was a stupid to move the 74 plex, xpecially in a cyno frig -.- what i ask is..do that kind of "loot" actually drops sometimes? 'cause if it does, everything's fine (xcept that dude ^_^;), if it doesn't well..then there's a problem yes. PLEXes do drop. it's just this was a stack, and as you remember stacks get processed all at once instead of individually. some people loaded up a frig with 4 million PLEXes (unstacked) on Sisi then blew it up... 99%+ of them dropped. Then I stand corrected on the hypocrisy. Naggers will have to find something else to nag about now.
putopugno Gallente Unit-9	Posted - 2010.08.08 13:02:00 - [197] Can I just point out a very big flaw a lot of you are making? A lot of people are implying that CCP "holds" onto the cash used to buy the plexes (when they were originally created) and don't spend the cash until the plex is consumed. This is baloney - that money is budgeted regardless of whether the game item is still there. Also while it is true that the creation of a plex creates an implied contract, the contract is complete with the creation of the game item. Remember, above all plex is simply a game item that can be traded for game time. Nothing more.
NL Nataku Manson Family Corcoran State	Posted - 2010.08.08 13:18:00 - [198] So the discussion right now is if this is ccp's doing or the poor guy losing tons of isk or real currency. Yes the dude is a idiot for taking those things out for a spin in a kestrel since you know that when someone sees you cargo you might aswell paint a huge bullseye on your hull. However i dont agree with the fact that ccp lets these items be destroyed, these items can only come into excistance if people pay ccp money and their true purpose would then never be accomplished if they just pop. So even if people are stupid enough to take these things out then people who killed them should be able to take them. In what matter does this hurt ccp. Its arleady been paid for but no, this way ccp claims money and does not have to do anything for it. Now this discussion could go on forever but just ask yourself this question.. WHY did ccp even make the plex's moveble, is it because the csm asked them, is it because people here on the forums were screaming about it ??? If it was either of the cases then i must have missed something. I mean they must have a good reason for it right, cant image that the devs just came together at a meeting and just said hey you know what lets make the plex's moveble and destroyeble because that will improve the game. Yeah right. I dont agree with it and so do alot of other people i would rather see plex's turn back to non moveble to or better yet completly removed from the game including gtc's but that is a whole diffrent story and my personal opinion.
Xroxreariad Ramatarapap	Posted - 2010.08.08 13:23:00 - [199] Hahahahahahaha Nice!
Illwill Bill Raven Dynasty Reloaded LLC	Posted - 2010.08.08 13:26:00 - [200] I had lost much of the faith I once had in CCP. There has been endless threads about lag, imbalanced weapon systems, and the way in which CCP works, so there is no reason to go into detail here. But then, something wonderful, something so beautiful as this happens. Making plexes movable was a great decision. It's things like this that makes me love EVE; this cold, harsh, and completely unforgiving universe. Congratulations to the adopted kids. It's too bad the stuff didn't drop. As for anyone believing that plexes being movable is scary, well then just don't undock. Even better, stick to using the forum for GTC trade, if you want to make sure you will not get scammed, killed, or publicly rediculed.

Sarina Berghil Minmatar New Zion Judge Advocate	Posted - 2010.08.08 13:59:00 - [201] Originally by: putopugno Can I just point out a very big flaw a lot of you are making? A lot of people are implying that CCP "holds" onto the cash used to buy the plexes (when they were originally created) and don't spend the cash until the plex is consumed. This is baloney - that money is budgeted regardless of whether the game item is still there. Also while it is true that the creation of a plex creates an implied contract, the contract is complete with the creation of the game item. Remember, above all plex is simply a game item that can be traded for game time. Nothing more. When a PLEX is created, CCP still owes someone, somewhere 30 days of game time. The contract is only completed the moment the game time is actually cashed in. When a PLEX is destroyed CCP doesn't need to honour the contract they got paid for, and furthermore it increases demand for buying further PLEX'es with real money. This is getting real close to fraud. I think the whole change is mainly due to CCP not thinking properly. But if I were to be paranoid for the sake of argument, it could look like CCP printed more PLEX'es than they can afford to honour, and therefore needs some of them destroyed. Some people seems to think PLEX'es have ISK value and as such are comparable to other items in the game. A PLEX does not have an inherent ISK value, since they can't be 'cashed in' for ISK. They can only be traded to other players that have the intention of using the game time. Thats an important detail that separates the PLEX system from other types of RMT or microtransactions and keeps the economy stable. No cash enters the game with the creation or sale of a PLEX.
Baneken Gallente School of the Unseen	Posted - 2010.08.08 14:04:00 - [202] Posting on a thread containing epic stupidity and btw nice kill, the guy totally deserved it. http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.08.08 14:10:00 - [203] Originally by: Sarina Berghil When a PLEX is created, CCP still owes someone, somewhere 30 days of game time. The contract is only completed the moment the game time is actually cashed in. This applies to a ETC, not to a PLEX. A PLEX is an item that is in the game ONLY to counter RMT. People are now free to trade those items as well. Quote: When a PLEX is destroyed CCP doesn't need to honour the contract they got paid for, and furthermore it increases demand for buying further PLEX'es with real money. There was no contract in the first place, so nothing to honor. Quote: I think the whole change is mainly due to CCP not thinking properly. But if I were to be paranoid for the sake of argument, it could look like CCP printed more PLEX'es than they can afford to honour, and therefore needs some of them destroyed. No, they are giving you, the player, the option to get filthy rich on them, unless you are a moron and try your luck in a T1 frig, while at war. Quote: Some people seems to think PLEX'es have ISK value and as such are comparable to other items in the game. A PLEX does not have an inherent ISK value, since they can't be 'cashed in' for ISK. They can only be traded to other players that have the intention of using the game time. Thats an important detail that separates the PLEX system from other types of RMT or microtransactions and keeps the economy stable. No cash enters the game with the creation or sale of a PLEX. I cant cash in my Hulk, T2 BS, or any other in game item either. It would be fraud, the moment my PLEX can be stolen off the market, without me getting the ISK for it, or when it would randomly despawn from my cargo. In all other cases, it's the pilots responsability to do with them what he/she wants. ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.08.08 14:28:00 - [204] Originally by: Aerilis Originally by: Halcyon Ingenium Originally by: Aerilis The value of an item is not deemed by some fine print in the EULA, the value of any item, virtual or real, is determined by what PEOPLE THINK IT IS WORTH. Nothing else. If everyone in the world thinks pennies are more valuable then nickels, guess what? They will become more valuable then nickels, regardless of what the U.S. Mint says about the value of pennies. Well no, the U.S. Mint says it is worth 1/100th of a dollar, and therefore no bank is going to give you any more or less than a dollar if you give them 100 pennies. If people are buying or selling them as items, then they have ceased to be money. Likewise, even if all the players of EVE agreed that plex's were worth actual money, that doesn't mean you can get a line of credit at a real bank based on the number of plexes you have. You would have to convert them to GTC, sell them to someone for some form of currency a bank would accept, and then deposit that currency. You can think it is worth anything you want, and others can agree with you, but that bubble bursts the moment you have to deal with someone who disagrees as to the "worth" of your tulips, I mean in game items. Some things do have intrinsic value, but sorry, plex just isn't on that list. Heh you dived pretty deep into that one :) You argue intelligently though, and for that you have my respect. The point I was trying to make, though, was that PLEX perform the same function as GTC's. Both PLEX's and GTC's attain their value from one thing and one thing only--their ability to extend a person's Eve subscription. But here's where you're right--established law and institutions and fine print do have a say in the value of items, which is why CCP is only stealing in the ethical sense and not the legal sense. Wrong. "Its immoral to let a sucker keep his money". ~ Canada Bill Jones This is clearly a signature.

CCP Incognito	Posted - 2010.08.08 14:30:00 - [205] Originally by: Steve Celeste Would have been a nice drop, too bad that CCP set the drop chance for that item to ABSOLUTELY ZERO I would like to nip this in the but, PLEX drop just like any other cargo using exactly the same rules. If the PLEX are in a can and the can doesn't drop as loot then everything in the can doesn't drop as loot. In this case it was one role of the die and the can didn't drop, so bye bye all the contents. ----- I am a programmer, not a designer, all design comments are just speculation and have no grounding in fact!

Zeke Mobius	Posted - 2010.08.08 14:31:00 - [206] Edited by: Zeke Mobius on 08/08/2010 14:31:11 i stnad corrected
Sarina Berghil Minmatar New Zion Judge Advocate	Posted - 2010.08.08 14:37:00 - [207] Originally by: CCP Incognito Originally by: Steve Celeste Would have been a nice drop, too bad that CCP set the drop chance for that item to ABSOLUTELY ZERO I would like to nip this in the but, PLEX drop just like any other cargo using exactly the same rules. If the PLEX are in a can and the can doesn't drop as loot then everything in the can doesn't drop as loot. In this case it was one role of the die and the can didn't drop, so bye bye all the contents. You got paid real cash for those PLEXes already, do you believe its a reasonable business practice to roll dice for services you have been paid for?
Serpents smile	Posted - 2010.08.08 14:44:00 - [208] Originally by: Sarina Berghil You got paid real cash for those PLEXes already, do you believe its a reasonable business practice to roll dice for services you have been paid for? Stop with this! The player decided to gamble with it, totally needlessly since there is no reason at all to move plex around. He could have trashed it sold it on the spot or like in this case, jumped into a timn can and got blown up. IT WAS HIS CHOICE!
Sarf Spacelane Logistics	Posted - 2010.08.08 14:44:00 - [209] I think you all are missing a big point here. This is like going to buy a gift card at Best Buy. once the cashier takes the money and hands you the gift card there responsibility over the card is done. They don't know or care if you take that gift card and give it to someone else, or story it in your mattress or shred it. They only care when the card comes back and someone says give me a DVD in exchange for the gift card. CCP is in the same boat, they gave you a PLEX when you gave them $. after that if you turn around and sell it, undock and get poped, or transfer it to your brother. They only care when someone presents the plex and says "give me 30d play time". So there is nothing unethical about this. if i buy a gift card and leave it on the buss is it best buys fault that I am absent minded? No it is my fault for losing it! Same with CCP so lay off them, they have made it possible for me to hunt for game time... :) - Sarf CEO, Director of Freighter construction. Miner of small balls of dirt.
Apollo Gabriel Domini Lex Talionis Etherium Cartel	Posted - 2010.08.08 14:48:00 - [210] Originally by: CCP Incognito Originally by: Steve Celeste Would have been a nice drop, too bad that CCP set the drop chance for that item to ABSOLUTELY ZERO I would like to nip this in the but, PLEX drop just like any other cargo using exactly the same rules. If the PLEX are in a can and the can doesn't drop as loot then everything in the can doesn't drop as loot. In this case it was one role of the die and the can didn't drop, so bye bye all the contents. well thank you for posting, but the fact that your company isn't bothered by this "destruction of over $1000 really bothers me. Captain fire torpedos, target his REAL wallet. I was ok with movable plex as a concept, but this situation tells me to absolutely oppose it now. Real purchased game time should not be destroyable. TO CCP: The implicit promise of polished quality keeps me playing through the rough times. Don't let the Trolls keep you from your goals.

Sarina Berghil Minmatar New Zion Judge Advocate	Posted - 2010.08.08 14:52:00 - [211] Originally by: Serpents smile Originally by: Sarina Berghil You got paid real cash for those PLEXes already, do you believe its a reasonable business practice to roll dice for services you have been paid for? Stop with this! The player decided to gamble with it, totally needlessly since there is no reason at all to move plex around. He could have trashed it sold it on the spot or like in this case, jumped into a timn can and got blown up. IT WAS HIS CHOICE! I agree completely. There is no reason at all to undock a plex, which is why the original functionality worked perfectly well. It makes sense to have special rules for items that have real life monetary value, or represents real life services.
Apollo Gabriel Domini Lex Talionis Etherium Cartel	Posted - 2010.08.08 14:56:00 - [212] The big issue for me is that you can't "farm" more of these, you can't mine and make them. You can't earn them in game. PLEX are NOT just any other item. CCP would have had to give 74x30 days of training to an account, now they don't have to. Let me be clear, was the pilot a complete idiot? Absolutely. Should Plex be movable? I was ok with the idea, but the destruction is WRONG. All 74 plex should have dropped NO MATTER WHAT, since they are NOT just any item. TO CCP: The implicit promise of polished quality keeps me playing through the rough times. Don't let the Trolls keep you from your goals.
Ruby Udders	Posted - 2010.08.08 15:02:00 - [213] Got what he deserved tbh.. Just because you can undock plexes doesn't mean you should. He took a gamble and lost. If he's too %#%!&# stupid to realise he might lose those 74 plexes the second he undocks.. It's hardly EVE's fault now is it? Undocking with PLEX in the hold is an OPTION.. Non-issue in my opinion. Be safe, be cynical
Caeltrayian Reliables Inc	Posted - 2010.08.08 15:03:00 - [214] Originally by: Apollo Gabriel The big issue for me is that you can't "farm" more of these, you can't mine and make them. You can't earn them in game. PLEX are NOT just any other item. CCP would have had to give 74x30 days of training to an account, now they don't have to. Let me be clear, was the pilot a complete idiot? Absolutely. Should Plex be movable? I was ok with the idea, but the destruction is WRONG. All 74 plex should have dropped NO MATTER WHAT, since they are NOT just any item. Once they were converted to PLEX they become just like any other in game item. sorry so sad, dont move the damn things around, if you are afraid of your precious being popped
Marlenus Ironfleet Towing And Salvage	Posted - 2010.08.08 15:13:00 - [215] I think this is awesome. Players win if the ball lands in the red slots, house wins if the ball lands the black slots. Nobody wins if the idiots don't play. ------------------ Ironfleet.com
Krecian Gallente Essence of Decay Black Cartel.	Posted - 2010.08.08 15:16:00 - [216] Wow.... just freakin' wow. Give that those things can be redeemed from anywhere in the universe without having to be "in station", there really isn't a reason to move these in the first place other than personal profit. That guy was just "pants on head" stupid. This game punishes stupid. That's why I love this game. --------- "The first rock thrown again, welcome to hell little saint. Mother Gia in slaughter, welcome to paradise soldier." -Nightwish, Planet Hell
Apollo Gabriel Domini Lex Talionis Etherium Cartel	Posted - 2010.08.08 15:18:00 - [217] Originally by: Krecian Edited by: Krecian on 08/08/2010 15:16:55 Wow.... just freakin' wow. Given that those things can be redeemed from anywhere in the universe without having to be "in station", there really isn't a reason to move these in the first place other than personal profit. That guy was just "pants on head" stupid. This game punishes stupid. That's why I love this game. (Edited for a minor spelling error) My issue is that they should NOT be destroyable. They should drop 100% CCP should be forced to HONOUR the item. Treat it like any item, move it, sell it, etc, they are NOT just any item however. TO CCP: The implicit promise of polished quality keeps me playing through the rough times. Don't let the Trolls keep you from your goals.
Thrasymachus TheSophist	Posted - 2010.08.08 15:23:00 - [218] Originally by: Apollo Gabriel My issue is that they should NOT be destroyable. They should drop 100% CCP should be forced to HONOUR the item. Treat it like any item, move it, sell it, etc, they are NOT just any item however. If they were NOT destructible, then you'd be right, and they'd be special. By making them movable and destructible, they ARE just like any other item. The whole point is to make them LIKE everything else - not something special. The fact that you can directly trade in a PLEX for game time, instead of sell the asset for ISK, buy PLEX, trade in for game time, does not make them "special". Its simply an in-game asset, and like any in-game asset (even ones that are worth 10x a PLEX) it should be destructible. The craziness is why, given how they function, anyone would move them ...
Squasar Kiith Paktu Hiigaran Protectorate	Posted - 2010.08.08 15:27:00 - [219] The trolling in this thread is incredible! One you convert a GTC to a PLEX, any monetary value goes out the window. I've seen T1 haulers get ganked FULL of complete Slave implant sets that equal the value of these PLEX. Anyone that converts the price of an IN GAME ITEM to real money shouldn't be playing a game at all. Speaking of which, I just lost a shuttle. Now I need to go kill myself since I just lost $0.05 in real life money!
Apollo Gabriel Domini Lex Talionis Etherium Cartel	Posted - 2010.08.08 15:27:00 - [220] Originally by: Thrasymachus TheSophist Originally by: Apollo Gabriel My issue is that they should NOT be destroyable. They should drop 100% CCP should be forced to HONOUR the item. Treat it like any item, move it, sell it, etc, they are NOT just any item however. If they were NOT destructible, then you'd be right, and they'd be special. By making them movable and destructible, they ARE just like any other item. The whole point is to make them LIKE everything else - not something special. The fact that you can directly trade in a PLEX for game time, instead of sell the asset for ISK, buy PLEX, trade in for game time, does not make them "special". Its simply an in-game asset, and like any in-game asset (even ones that are worth 10x a PLEX) it should be destructible. The craziness is why, given how they function, anyone would move them ... I completely agree with the Pilot Error here, I am not excusing the horrendously stupid action. What did the game gain from moving them? Really? what was added? the ability to exist in null without a jump clone? That was never really addressed. If the item could be bought with LP I would drop all objections. Now I think NO one would want them buyable with LP, which then argues they are not JUST normal items. TO CCP: The implicit promise of polished quality keeps me playing through the rough times. Don't let the Trolls keep you from your goals.

Ubora	Posted - 2010.08.08 15:33:00 - [221] Nothing magical about money that makes that so special, you pay for all your in-game gear in someway with effort from the real world. Be it time, money, mental or physical health.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.08 15:33:00 - [222] Originally by: Apollo Gabriel What did the game gain from moving them? Really? what was added? the ability to exist in null without a jump clone? That was never really addressed. If the item could be bought with LP I would drop all objections. Now I think NO one would want them buyable with LP, which then argues they are not JUST normal items. The ability to make more ISK from them. It turned them into true trade goods, and with the reward that this brings comes the risk losing them all as wellà ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Kerdrak Big Guns Inc. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.08 15:33:00 - [223] Originally by: Apollo Gabriel Originally by: CCP Incognito Originally by: Steve Celeste Would have been a nice drop, too bad that CCP set the drop chance for that item to ABSOLUTELY ZERO I would like to nip this in the but, PLEX drop just like any other cargo using exactly the same rules. If the PLEX are in a can and the can doesn't drop as loot then everything in the can doesn't drop as loot. In this case it was one role of the die and the can didn't drop, so bye bye all the contents. well thank you for posting, but the fact that your company isn't bothered by this "destruction of over $1000 really bothers me. Captain fire torpedos, target his REAL wallet. I was ok with movable plex as a concept, but this situation tells me to absolutely oppose it now. Real purchased game time should not be destroyable. If I buy a F50 and I decide to drive it at 200 km per hour to end destroying it against a tree, should I go to Ferrari forums and whine because they allowed me to drive it at that speed? or should they limit the speed of F50 to 100 km/h? ________________________________________
Sarina Berghil Minmatar New Zion Judge Advocate	Posted - 2010.08.08 15:34:00 - [224] Originally by: Thrasymachus TheSophist Originally by: Apollo Gabriel My issue is that they should NOT be destroyable. They should drop 100% CCP should be forced to HONOUR the item. Treat it like any item, move it, sell it, etc, they are NOT just any item however. If they were NOT destructible, then you'd be right, and they'd be special. By making them movable and destructible, they ARE just like any other item. The whole point is to make them LIKE everything else - not something special. The fact that you can directly trade in a PLEX for game time, instead of sell the asset for ISK, buy PLEX, trade in for game time, does not make them "special". Its simply an in-game asset, and like any in-game asset (even ones that are worth 10x a PLEX) it should be destructible. The craziness is why, given how they function, anyone would move them ... From a technical perspective they are like a normal item. From a functionality perspective they are very special. Depends on your point of view. One reason to move them would be lack of knowledge about how they work, how assets work in general, and how the market and contract system works. That lack of knowledge is quite common for new players. Personally I don't consider that stupidity, but I realize a lot of older players do. Another reason to undock with them could be just a simple oversight, something that we all suffer from once in a while.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.08.08 15:34:00 - [225] Originally by: Barkaial Starfinder So.. If you buy game cards and set them on fire, you think ... oh god Seem to recall someone did something similar with a box of cigars. Insured them against fire. Smoked them. Claimed them on insurance. Worked fine, up until he was booked on the way out of the courtroom for arson...
Cryten Jones Gallente Eldritch Storm The Matari Consortium	Posted - 2010.08.08 15:36:00 - [226] Originally by: CCP Incognito Originally by: Steve Celeste Would have been a nice drop, too bad that CCP set the drop chance for that item to ABSOLUTELY ZERO I would like to nip this in the but, PLEX drop just like any other cargo using exactly the same rules. If the PLEX are in a can and the can doesn't drop as loot then everything in the can doesn't drop as loot. In this case it was one role of the die and the can didn't drop, so bye bye all the contents. Just wanted to point out that the expression is 'to nip that in the bud'. comes from a gardening practice to stop a new stalk or flower growing if you don't want it to by cutting a chunk out of the new bud. Not making an issue out of it, just thought that you would like to know :-) -CJ Originally by: Nogap toosmall and your understanding of probability is on par with a radish.
Illwill Bill Raven Dynasty Reloaded LLC	Posted - 2010.08.08 15:40:00 - [227] Such is the reality of the sandbox, ladies and gentlemen. If you truly want a game, where loss is a non-issue, and the developer actively stops you from doing stupid things, then EVE is not really the best MMO for you. This character had the option to trade GTC's over the forum. GTC trade is safe, and scams are not allowed in the timecode bazaar. Once you convert the GTC to plexes, you agree to convert your code to an in-game items. In EVE, players are able, allowed, and even encouraged to steal, scam, and destroy in-game items and this applies just as much to a plex as it does to a 1MN Afterburner I.
Dirk Mortice	Posted - 2010.08.08 15:41:00 - [228] Oh god, the rage. This is probably the only epic thing CCP have done in the last year
TehFailGuy	Posted - 2010.08.08 15:45:00 - [229] No one else wondered how someone this ******ed managed to acquire the ISK or real life money to afford all that?
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2010.08.08 15:48:00 - [230] I can honestly say, stuff like this makes me still want to play the game. The best move by CCP for a long time. Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.

Y Berion Minmatar	Posted - 2010.08.08 15:49:00 - [231] Originally by: Sarina Berghil When a PLEX is created, CCP still owes someone, somewhere 30 days of game time. The contract is only completed the moment the game time is actually cashed in. When a PLEX is destroyed CCP doesn't need to honour the contract they got paid for, and furthermore it increases demand for buying further PLEX'es with real money. This is getting real close to fraud. No. CCP received money and delivered an item which gives 30 days of game time upon activation, that's where your business with CCP is over. What will you do with that item is your responsibility, not CCP's. You can use it, sell it, destroy it, lose in some market/contract scam or -as in this case- ship destruction... so it's only up to you. Oh and I bet that guy had some master plan to make big money with those plexes, unfortunately for him something went terribly wrong. Another day in EVE, another loss... nothing new there, really.
ShadowandLight Amarr Doom Guard Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.08.08 15:55:00 - [232] Originally by: TehFailGuy No one else wondered how someone this ******ed managed to acquire the ISK or real life money to afford all that? pimpin' ain't easy ------- "The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1 Hoist the Colors!
Agent Unknown Caldari	Posted - 2010.08.08 16:06:00 - [233] Originally by: Apollo Gabriel Originally by: CCP Incognito Originally by: Steve Celeste Would have been a nice drop, too bad that CCP set the drop chance for that item to ABSOLUTELY ZERO I would like to nip this in the but, PLEX drop just like any other cargo using exactly the same rules. If the PLEX are in a can and the can doesn't drop as loot then everything in the can doesn't drop as loot. In this case it was one role of the die and the can didn't drop, so bye bye all the contents. well thank you for posting, but the fact that your company isn't bothered by this "destruction of over $1000 really bothers me. Captain fire torpedos, target his REAL wallet. I was ok with movable plex as a concept, but this situation tells me to absolutely oppose it now. Real purchased game time should not be destroyable. It's not destroyable if you don't undock with it. There is absolutely no reason to undock with PLEXs in your cargo...especially that many of them. For all we know he could've done that to spark this very thread. Sure, PLEX are generated from RL cash, but people shouldn't be stupid enough to undock with a bunch of them. I forgot to mention that you are in fact reading something that is called a signature.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.08.08 16:09:00 - [234] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 08/08/2010 16:13:06 Originally by: Agent Unknown Originally by: Apollo Gabriel Originally by: CCP Incognito Originally by: Steve Celeste Would have been a nice drop, too bad that CCP set the drop chance for that item to ABSOLUTELY ZERO I would like to nip this in the but, PLEX drop just like any other cargo using exactly the same rules. If the PLEX are in a can and the can doesn't drop as loot then everything in the can doesn't drop as loot. In this case it was one role of the die and the can didn't drop, so bye bye all the contents. well thank you for posting, but the fact that your company isn't bothered by this "destruction of over $1000 really bothers me. Captain fire torpedos, target his REAL wallet. I was ok with movable plex as a concept, but this situation tells me to absolutely oppose it now. Real purchased game time should not be destroyable. It's not destroyable if you don't undock with it. There is absolutely no reason to undock with PLEXs in your cargo...especially that many of them. For all we know he could've done that to spark this very thread. Sure, PLEX are generated from RL cash, but people shouldn't be stupid enough to undock with a bunch of them. Close, but not quite. GTC's are generated from RL cash. PLEX are generated from the conscious decision to turn that GTC into two game items that are destructible and have no RL value. CCP, could you please make it so that we cannot undock. Otherwise we might get our pixels injured. YOU MUST PROTECT US FROM OURSELVES. WE CANNOT BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR OWN BAD IN GAME DECISIONS ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Nye Jaran	Posted - 2010.08.08 16:13:00 - [235] Edited by: Nye Jaran on 08/08/2010 16:14:11 Edit: Phrasing So CCP, the same company that says "FU players, everything new, nothing fixed for 18 months" just got a nice bit of free cash? Sounds like a ****ing scam to me, and quite possibly something that could get them into legal trouble. Before you flame me, just follow the logic. A PLEX is a legally binding agreement between CCP and the owner of the PLEX (not purchaser) to credit the owner's account with 30 days of game time when a PLEX is redeemed. By allowing them to be destroyed (thus made unredeemable), CCP is purposefully breaching that agreement, potentially to an extent that's legally actionable in small claims court. If the PLEX had a 100% drop rate, there would be no problem. Ownership would transfer over to the wreck looters and the agreement would still be honored.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.08.08 16:18:00 - [236] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 08/08/2010 16:19:44 Originally by: Nye Jaran Edited by: Nye Jaran on 08/08/2010 16:14:11 Edit: Phrasing So CCP, the same company that says "FU players, everything new, nothing fixed for 18 months" just got a nice bit of free cash? Sounds like a ****ing scam to me, and quite possibly something that could get them into legal trouble. Before you flame me, just follow the logic. A PLEX is a legally binding agreement between CCP and the owner of the PLEX (not purchaser) to credit the owner's account with 30 days of game time when a PLEX is redeemed. By allowing them to be destroyed (thus made unredeemable), CCP is purposefully breaching that agreement, potentially to an extent that's legally actionable in small claims court. If the PLEX had a 100% drop rate, there would be no problem. Ownership would transfer over to the wreck looters and the agreement would still be honored. As has been repeatedly pointed out, a GTC is the "legally binding agreement". These have a value and are not destructible. A PLEX is created from the conscious decision of the GTC owner to convert it into two in game items that are destructible and have no real world value. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.08 16:20:00 - [237] Edited by: Tippia on 08/08/2010 16:20:46 Originally by: Nye Jaran So CCP, the same company that says "FU players, everything new, nothing fixed for 18 months" just got a nice bit of free cash? No. Quote: A PLEX is a legally binding agreement between CCP and the owner of the PLEX (not purchaser) to credit the owner's account with 30 days of game time when a PLEX is redeemed. "If", not "when". Quote: By allowing them to be destroyed (thus made unredeemable), CCP is purposefully breaching that agreement By the same token, by choosing to destroy the item, the player is purposefully breaching that agreement, thereby absolving CCP of their duty to fork over 30 days of game time. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Denidil Gallente Rape Pillage and Burn	Posted - 2010.08.08 16:25:00 - [238] to everyone crying in this thread: HTFU! There is a perfectly legitimate software engineering reason to remove the special rules off this item: reduces chances for bugs and exploits Legally and ETHICALLY CCP only has a responsibility to honor: A GTC (convertable into game time, or 2 PLEX). Once that code is redeemed their responsibility is ended until such a time as someone presents a PLEX for redemption. tese would be covered by the same ethics and laws as a gift card. It is not the responsibility of the issuer of a gift card (or prepaid visa or mastercard) if the card is lost or destroyed. They're only obligated to honor othem when they're presented. The decisions of the players involved in this situation destroyed the "gift cards" (PLEX) so they can not be presented for redemption. It is not the legal or ethical responsibility of CCP to honor gift cards that are destroyed. Furthermore as shown on test PLEX have a very good probability of dropping (when not stuck inside a can which got destroyed)./ Yes this means that CCP gets more money in than they give services out.. this is true of everyone who issues gift cards or prepaid credit/debit cards. Caveat: I am a software engineer in the credit/debit/ACH processing industry.
Nye Jaran	Posted - 2010.08.08 16:36:00 - [239] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Nye Jaran So CCP, the same company that says "FU players, everything new, nothing fixed for 18 months" just got a nice bit of free cash? No. Explain no, please? A person paid money for a GTC, turned around and sold it in Eve as 2x PLEX. Those PLEX, when they were removed from the game, became permanently unreedemable. CCP got the money but the owner of the PLEX did not get the game time. Quote: Quote: A PLEX is a legally binding agreement between CCP and the owner of the PLEX (not purchaser) to credit the owner's account with 30 days of game time when a PLEX is redeemed. "If", not "when". Correct, a PLEX does not have to redeemed. My mistake on this one. Quote: Quote: By allowing them to be destroyed (thus made unredeemable), CCP is purposefully breaching that agreement By the same token, by choosing to destroy the item, the player is purposefully breaching that agreement, thereby absolving CCP of their duty to fork over 30 days of game time. No, actually. The owner is not willfully destroying the PLEX, nor is the owner (most likely) intending to destroy it. By allowing players to undock with PLEX, CCP has given implied consent.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.08.08 16:42:00 - [240] Originally by: Nye Jaran Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Nye Jaran So CCP, the same company that says "FU players, everything new, nothing fixed for 18 months" just got a nice bit of free cash? No. Explain no, please? A person paid money for a GTC, turned around and sold it in Eve as 2x PLEX. Those PLEX, when they were removed from the game, became permanently unreedemable. CCP got the money but the owner of the PLEX did not get the game time. Quote: Quote: A PLEX is a legally binding agreement between CCP and the owner of the PLEX (not purchaser) to credit the owner's account with 30 days of game time when a PLEX is redeemed. "If", not "when". Correct, a PLEX does not have to redeemed. My mistake on this one. Quote: Quote: By allowing them to be destroyed (thus made unredeemable), CCP is purposefully breaching that agreement By the same token, by choosing to destroy the item, the player is purposefully breaching that agreement, thereby absolving CCP of their duty to fork over 30 days of game time. No, actually. The owner is not willfully destroying the PLEX, nor is the owner (most likely) intending to destroy it. By allowing players to undock with PLEX, CCP has given implied consent. Read the post above yours, specifically this... Quote: Legally and ETHICALLY CCP only has a responsibility to honor: A GTC (convertable into game time, or 2 PLEX). Once that code is redeemed their responsibility is ended until such a time as someone presents a PLEX for redemption. tese would be covered by the same ethics and laws as a gift card. It is not the responsibility of the issuer of a gift card (or prepaid visa or mastercard) if the card is lost or destroyed. They're only obligated to honor othem when they're presented. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.

Denidil Gallente Rape Pillage and Burn	Posted - 2010.08.08 16:42:00 - [241] Nye look up one post for the explanation.
Bomberlocks Minmatar CTRL-Q	Posted - 2010.08.08 16:44:00 - [242] I just want to add a point about the legality of PLEX being in-game items: CCP are capable of truly astounding acts of incompetence and downright stupidity, but you can be pretty sure that they consulted with lawyers when it comes to things like PLEX and the ability to destroy it before they allowed that to happen. In other words: They're dumb and they eat too much whale meat, but they're not that dumb.
Ubora	Posted - 2010.08.08 16:45:00 - [243] You don't buy game time, you buy an item that can be exchanged for game time. CCP got the money and the guy got the item. That's it. What then happens to the item is no ones concern other than the guy wasting it in this instance.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.08.08 16:47:00 - [244] Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 08/08/2010 16:52:54 Originally by: Apollo Gabriel The big issue for me is that you can't "farm" more of these, you can't mine and make them. You can't earn them in game. PLEX are NOT just any other item. CCP would have had to give 74x30 days of training to an account, now they don't have to. Let me be clear, was the pilot a complete idiot? Absolutely. Should Plex be movable? I was ok with the idea, but the destruction is WRONG. All 74 plex should have dropped NO MATTER WHAT, since they are NOT just any item. I don't think that significantly boosting high sec suicide ganking is the way to go. I can see your point and understand it. But having PLEX's drop at a 100% rate will create more problems than it would solve. But I am not quite convinced that there is even a problem here even though you bring up an interesting point. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Louis deGuerre Gallente Amicus Morte Shock an Awe	Posted - 2010.08.08 16:51:00 - [245] Originally by: BeachParty If anyone has the heart, contract that pilot a new Kestral. You win the threadnought Sol: A microwarp drive? In a battleship? Are you insane? They arenÆt built for this! Clear Skies - The Movie
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.08.08 16:54:00 - [246] Originally by: Ranger 1 YOU MUST PROTECT US FROM OURSELVES. WE CANNOT BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR OWN BAD IN GAME DECISIONS QFT Today, people seem unable to think, forsee consequences, and take responsibility. So to be even more realistic in todays world we might even be better off with banning internet all together. There is this saying amongst developers: Originally by: Rich Cook Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning. I guess it doesnt only apply in programming. ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
Nye Jaran	Posted - 2010.08.08 16:56:00 - [247] There is a difference, I believe. Regardless of the state of a gift card (in a pocket / wallet, lost, stolen, etc.) it still has value until it is used, yes? If I lose a $50 gift card and someone else finds it, they now have a $50 gift card. This is how PLEX work, when they drop. However, when a PLEX gets destroyed, it's much like the gift card issuer deleting the card information from the DB. It removes the value completely and prevents it from ever being used. If PLEX dropped 100% of the time, the issue would be resolved. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong but I will never agree with the reasoning. It just seems unethical as hell.
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.08.08 17:00:00 - [248] Edited by: Ressiv on 08/08/2010 17:00:22 Originally by: Nye Jaran However, when a PLEX gets destroyed, ~~it's much like the gift card issuer deleting the card information from the DB~~ it's much like the owner keeping it in his pocket, while washing his pants. It removes the value completely and prevents it from ever being used. FYP ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
Denidil Gallente Rape Pillage and Burn	Posted - 2010.08.08 17:05:00 - [249] Originally by: Nye Jaran Regardless of the state of a gift card (in a pocket / wallet, lost, stolen, etc.) it still has value until it is used, yes? no, if the gift card is destroyed (cut up, melted, whatever) it is void. if the number is still readable the store can, at their discretion, choose to honnor the card by punching in the PAN manually.
RifterDrifter They Found Oil On Your Anus	Posted - 2010.08.08 17:05:00 - [250] Originally by: Ranger 1 YOU MUST PROTECT US FROM OURSELVES. WE CANNOT BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR OWN BAD IN GAME DECISIONS Pretty much this. All the people baaaawing about CCP giving them more freedom about the stuff they own should collectively sue CCP for breaking internet space law for extra lulz. _______________________________________________

Nye Jaran	Posted - 2010.08.08 17:06:00 - [251] Originally by: Ressiv Edited by: Ressiv on 08/08/2010 17:00:22 Originally by: Nye Jaran However, when a PLEX gets destroyed, ~~it's much like the gift card issuer deleting the card information from the DB~~ it's much like the owner keeping it in his pocket, while washing his pants. It removes the value completely and prevents it from ever being used. FYP Never used a Gamestop gift card to buy from them online? Doesn't matter what happens to the card, as long as you know the number and PIN, you're good to go. Not that I've ever done that or anything.
Phosphorus Palladium	Posted - 2010.08.08 17:06:00 - [252] Originally by: Ressiv Edited by: Ressiv on 08/08/2010 17:00:22 Originally by: Nye Jaran However, when a PLEX gets destroyed, ~~it's much like the gift card issuer deleting the card information from the DB~~ it's much like the owner keeping it in his pocket, while washing his pants. It removes the value completely and prevents it from ever being used. FYP Thanks, was about to say the same. Also, the constant whinage on these forums is becoming annoying.
Denidil Gallente Rape Pillage and Burn	Posted - 2010.08.08 17:13:00 - [253] Originally by: Nye Jaran Edited by: Nye Jaran on 08/08/2010 17:08:21 Originally by: Ressiv Edited by: Ressiv on 08/08/2010 17:00:22 Originally by: Nye Jaran However, when a PLEX gets destroyed, ~~it's much like the gift card issuer deleting the card information from the DB~~ it's much like the owner keeping it in his pocket, while washing his pants. It removes the value completely and prevents it from ever being used. FYP Never used a Gamestop gift card to buy from them online? Doesn't matter what happens to the card, as long as you know the number and PIN, you're good to go. Not that I've ever done that (washing a gift card) or anything. apparently me explaining how they work to you twice was insufficient to get the point across?
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2010.08.08 17:16:00 - [254] Originally by: Nye Jaran Not getting it...... A plex is a virtual item, unlike a gift card. You do know Eve is a game, right? Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
Nye Jaran	Posted - 2010.08.08 17:17:00 - [255] Originally by: Denidil Originally by: Nye Jaran Edited by: Nye Jaran on 08/08/2010 17:08:21 Originally by: Ressiv Edited by: Ressiv on 08/08/2010 17:00:22 Originally by: Nye Jaran However, when a PLEX gets destroyed, ~~it's much like the gift card issuer deleting the card information from the DB~~ it's much like the owner keeping it in his pocket, while washing his pants. It removes the value completely and prevents it from ever being used. FYP Never used a Gamestop gift card to buy from them online? Doesn't matter what happens to the card, as long as you know the number and PIN, you're good to go. Not that I've ever done that (washing a gift card) or anything. apparently me explaining how they work to you twice was insufficient to get the point across? Obviously not.
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.08.08 17:18:00 - [256] Originally by: Nye Jaran Never used a Gamestop gift card to buy from them online? Doesn't matter what happens to the card, as long as you know the number and PIN, you're good to go. Not that I've ever done that (washing a gift card) or anything. A few giftcards and their policies: Blurp giftcards Snapon Giftcards Algauron In other words, the fact that Gamestop cards are replaced (couldnt find any evidence of this btw) does not make it law. The most logical explanation for why Gamestop cards can be used, regardless of you having the physical card, is the fact that you use the numbers on it, on a website. Web forms dont care where you read the info, as long as it's valid. ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
Denidil Gallente Rape Pillage and Burn	Posted - 2010.08.08 17:20:00 - [257] if the card is destroyed then the issuer has no responsibility to honor it, they're just being nice by honoring it's number if you have the number and the PIN. PLEXs are like gift cards that don't have numbers printed on them (Yes.. some are magnetic strip only, don't have numbers printed on them). once it is destroyed it is void (aka no longer has to be honored).
Nye Jaran	Posted - 2010.08.08 17:26:00 - [258] Originally by: Denidil PLEXs are like gift cards that don't have numbers printed on them (Yes.. some are magnetic strip only, don't have numbers printed on them). Now I understand. I still don't agree with it, but I get it. I was thinking about it in terms of data (card number / PIN).
Zeke Mobius	Posted - 2010.08.08 17:34:00 - [259] I have a hard time believing that CCP changed the PLEX system to benefit the players instead of benefiting CCP since destroyed PLEX does not have to get honored and CCP makes pure profit off destroyed plex. Absolutely nothing changed except CCP implementing a possible scenario in which CCP makes money. Thats all it is. They gave the option to move plex around. Thats it. By doing that, look what happened. CCP made over 1000euro over 1 person being a dumbass. Where exactly is the benefit to the player? Yes I understand that anyone will have to make the concious decision to undock with plex but that is not the point. Why would CCP even consider changing the system? Ive already answered. Greed Another thing that bothers me is why does it cost 20$ dollars to transfer a pilot to another account. CCP aint doing **. Who decided 20$ its more than a **ing sub.
Denidil Gallente Rape Pillage and Burn	Posted - 2010.08.08 17:35:00 - [260] Originally by: Nye Jaran Originally by: Denidil PLEXs are like gift cards that don't have numbers printed on them (Yes.. some are magnetic strip only, don't have numbers printed on them). Now I understand. I still don't agree with it, but I get it. I was thinking about it in terms of data (card number / PIN). 99% of the time it's just data to me to as i work on the software that routes the transaction from the acquirer (aka the person making a charge) to the issuer (who's card it is). different types of cards have different rules though - Pin and Chip, Swipe and Sign, Prepaid Visa/MC, Debit, gift cards, etc. Gift cards are actually usually not even processed on the same system as the rest of those - it's really only the Visa and master card "Gift Cards" (prepaid credit cards) that get processed over that. Gift Cards are usually either processed in house by the store (by having a step between their terminals and their transaction processor) or by their transaction processor. but AFAIK you won't find a store that has gift cards from a company that is not their acquirer processor.

Sarina Berghil Minmatar New Zion Judge Advocate	Posted - 2010.08.08 17:50:00 - [261] One major difference between a gift card and a plex, is that a plex can only be destroyed by design, or by a systems failure on the CCP side. If a gift card is destroyed its usually by accident. If a gift card is meant to be fragile and thus add extra income on the side for the company making them, I would consider that fishy as well. Normally thats not an issue because they are usually pretty sturdy. CCP designed for PLEXes to be destroyable, otherwise it wouldn't even be possible.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.08 17:52:00 - [262] Originally by: Nye Jaran Explain no, please? No, CCP has not said "FU players". No, CCP has not said "everything new nothing fixed for 18 months". No, CCP did not get a bit of free cash. Quote: CCP got the money but the owner of the PLEX did not get the game time. CCP got the money, and the owner got exactly what he wanted as well. Quote: No, actually. The owner is not willfully destroying the PLEX, nor is the owner (most likely) intending to destroy it. By allowing players to undock with PLEX, CCP has given implied consent. The owner wilfully chose to employ the PLEX in a way that has a chance of leading to its destruction. He chose not to force CCP to honour the "PLEX for time" agreement, but rather chose to treat it as a trade good and lost it like a trade good. At every step along the way, he could have chosen to hold them to this this alternative use; at every step along the way, he chose a different alternative, thus absolving CCP from the need to give him game time. CCP cannot be held responsible for those choices ù in fact, they upheld their end every time: they gave him the GTCs, just like he asked; they gave him the PLEXes, just like he asked; they transferred the PLEXes to his ship, just like he asked; they exposed him to the risk of having his ship blown up, just like he askedà Every single one of these choices were wilfully made by the player, not CCP. CCP did the only thing they could: they honoured the agreements between themselves and the player. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Denidil Gallente Rape Pillage and Burn	Posted - 2010.08.08 17:56:00 - [263] Originally by: Sarina Berghil One major difference between a gift card and a plex, is that a plex can only be destroyed by design, or by a systems failure on the CCP side. If a gift card is destroyed its usually by accident. If a gift card is meant to be fragile and thus add extra income on the side for the company making them, I would consider that fishy as well. Normally thats not an issue because they are usually pretty sturdy. CCP designed for PLEXes to be destroyable, otherwise it wouldn't even be possible. what? logic, you don't have it. items in eve can be destroyed. PLEX is an item in Eve. therefore PLEX can be destroyed. for a long time there was special case code blocking that last step. special case code opens the door to bugs and exploits. therefore CCP told you to take responsibility for your own actions and be careful. you see to want to live in a world where you constantly have a nanny protectin you. protecting people from their own stupidity is often a great idea in real life, but this is a game and PLEXs are an in game item - you had to choose to buy a GTC and then choose to redeem it as PLEX then you had to choose to undock with those. see all that player choice? it is not CCP's fault that players are stupid. would i be **ed if i got popped with PLEX in the hold? yes whould i be **ed at CCP? no
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.08 17:59:00 - [264] Originally by: Sarina Berghil CCP designed for PLEXes to be destroyable, otherwise it wouldn't even be possible. CCP designed for PLEXes to be destroyable if the player holding the PLEX so chooses. Nothing is destroyed unless a player ù someone who has something to lose form said destruction ù chooses to make it happen. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Libin Herobi	Posted - 2010.08.08 18:07:00 - [265] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Sarina Berghil CCP designed for PLEXes to be destroyable, otherwise it wouldn't even be possible. CCP designed for PLEXes to be destroyable if the player holding the PLEX so chooses. Nothing is destroyed unless a player ù someone who has something to lose form said destruction ù chooses to make it happen. That's a very complicated way of saying "yes".
Shawna Gray Gallente	Posted - 2010.08.08 18:08:00 - [266] Originally by: Sarina Berghil One major difference between a gift card and a plex, is that a plex can only be destroyed by design, or by a systems failure on the CCP side. If a gift card is destroyed its usually by accident. If a gift card is meant to be fragile and thus add extra income on the side for the company making them, I would consider that fishy as well. Normally thats not an issue because they are usually pretty sturdy. CCP designed for PLEXes to be destroyable, otherwise it wouldn't even be possible. CCP designed plexes so there is never any reason to move them, so they can be traded in perfect safety. But I guess its not idiot proof. I bet you have labeled all your forks with a big sign saying "do not put pointy end in your eye as it might hurt".
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.08 18:20:00 - [267] Originally by: Libin Herobi That's a very complicated way of saying "yes". It's actually a complicated way of saying "so what?" ù if players don't want to give CCP this mythical free money, they can simply choose not to. Hell, that choice is even the default, and they have to go out of their way to make something else happen. What I would like to know, as a point of comparison, is if I pay CCP for one month's subscription and then do absolutely nothing. No training, no ghost-datacorefarming, no active market orders, no S&Ià I don't even log in, and the only thing that happens on the account is that the character gets 30 days older. Have I then been defrauded by CCP, and should CCP be held accountable for letting this atrocity happen? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Sarina Berghil Minmatar New Zion Judge Advocate	Posted - 2010.08.08 18:23:00 - [268] Originally by: Denidil Originally by: Sarina Berghil One major difference between a gift card and a plex, is that a plex can only be destroyed by design, or by a systems failure on the CCP side. If a gift card is destroyed its usually by accident. If a gift card is meant to be fragile and thus add extra income on the side for the company making them, I would consider that fishy as well. Normally thats not an issue because they are usually pretty sturdy. CCP designed for PLEXes to be destroyable, otherwise it wouldn't even be possible. what? logic, you don't have it. items in eve can be destroyed. PLEX is an item in Eve. therefore PLEX can be destroyed. for a long time there was special case code blocking that last step. special case code opens the door to bugs and exploits. therefore CCP told you to take responsibility for your own actions and be careful. you see to want to live in a world where you constantly have a nanny protectin you. protecting people from their own stupidity is often a great idea in real life, but this is a game and PLEXs are an in game item - you had to choose to buy a GTC and then choose to redeem it as PLEX then you had to choose to undock with those. see all that player choice? it is not CCP's fault that players are stupid. would i be **ed if i got popped with PLEX in the hold? yes whould i be ed at CCP? no We seem to disagree on what a PLEX is. I mainly consider it a token representing an out of game service. You mainly consider it an in-game item. My view on what a PLEX is, is based on the fact that its only final use is to convert to gametime, an out of game service. It's true that it can be traded but thats just an intermediate step. In this way it is very different from any other item in Eve. How does CCP look at a PLEX? That would be interesting to know, in layman's terms without the legalese bull**. Since PLEX'es changed attributes recently, its quite possible CCP changed their stance on what they believe it represents. They didn't clearly say that though, all they mentioned was that it was supposed to be like any other item, which it clearly isn't. I want to live in a world that has reasonable consumer rights. And I do, I'm very grateful for that. I'm also aware that not all countries in the world are as fortunate in this field as I am. I don't mind getting f... over in a game, but I draw clear line between in-game and out of game topics. PLEXes makes that line fuzzy to say the least. Clearing up some of this PLEX business would make for better transparency for the consumers/players.
Mia Sin Amarr Space Ponies	Posted - 2010.08.08 18:24:00 - [269] Nobody would care if the PLEX were used to buy ships and those have blown up. Why do you care about PLEX being blown up? There is no difference whatsoever.
Apollo Gabriel Domini Lex Talionis Etherium Cartel	Posted - 2010.08.08 18:27:00 - [270] If Plex are just another item, then what is their purpose? What do they do in game? They are not redeemed for isk, although can be sold. They have no in-game purpose. Make the purchasable with Loyalty Points and then I may think they are an in game item. Although as soon as you do that, people will be here saying "Why does CCP make me do their missions ..." I care not for the pilot's loss, he really should have known better, how you acquire that amount of isk without is ... frightening. My issue is plex are not in game items. They may be traded in game, but they have no in game function. TO CCP: The implicit promise of polished quality keeps me playing through the rough times. Don't let the Trolls keep you from your goals.

Sarina Berghil Minmatar New Zion Judge Advocate	Posted - 2010.08.08 18:30:00 - [271] Originally by: Mia Sin Nobody would care if the PLEX were used to buy ships and those have blown up. Why do you care about PLEX being blown up? There is no difference whatsoever. If a PLEX is used to buy ships, another player bought it, probably with the intention of converting it to game time. And the original owner most likely sold the PLEX with the intention of getting ISK. Very few players would intentionally buy a PLEX with the sole purpose of destroying it. The last option isn't even a technical necessity, its only there because CCP designed for it.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.08.08 18:32:00 - [272] CCP stol... HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAA OH GOD CAN'T STOP LAUGHING HAHAHAHAHAH!!!! Oh man, what makes this even more hilarious is that from their killboard comments it appears to have been the entire alliance wallet and their sov fund. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Apollo Gabriel Domini Lex Talionis Etherium Cartel	Posted - 2010.08.08 18:36:00 - [273] Originally by: Liang Nuren CCP stol... HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAA OH GOD CAN'T STOP LAUGHING HAHAHAHAHAH!!!! Oh man, what makes this even more hilarious is that from their killboard comments it appears to have been the entire alliance wallet and their sov fund. -Liang No sympathy for the pilot or alliance here. CCP getting out of 74 months of service is what irks me. TO CCP: The implicit promise of polished quality keeps me playing through the rough times. Don't let the Trolls keep you from your goals.
Ori Blake	Posted - 2010.08.08 18:45:00 - [274] It depends how he bought the plex. If with ISK, the PLEX was honored already: the original user got his ISK for them. Only if he bought them with cash and was going to sell them would he have a claim, but chances are he'd be chargebacking CCP for them as we speak, and it would be a toss-up whether the rationales people give on forum would be seen the same way by a CC company. With ISK though it's just like buying a ship, they aren't obligated to provide the goods if they get destroyed. CCP wins, original seller wins, buyer loses.
Isten Baba	Posted - 2010.08.08 19:05:00 - [275] Originally by: Liang Nuren Oh man, what makes this even more hilarious is that from their killboard comments it appears to have been the entire alliance wallet and their sov fund. -Liang Sorry, I'm a bit of a noob: could someone post a link to that forum? I can't seem to find it, but would love to read those reactions...
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.08.08 19:09:00 - [276] Originally by: Isten Baba Originally by: Liang Nuren Oh man, what makes this even more hilarious is that from their killboard comments it appears to have been the entire alliance wallet and their sov fund. -Liang Sorry, I'm a bit of a noob: could someone post a link to that forum? I can't seem to find it, but would love to read those reactions... http://www.smalliance.com/killboards/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=2847 http://ad0pt.evekb.co.uk/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=1539031 -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Isten Baba	Posted - 2010.08.08 19:20:00 - [277] Thanks a lot! (It's a fun read!)
MILK Monk Knights of the Silver Dawn Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.08 19:23:00 - [278] Originally by: Apollo Gabriel Originally by: CCP Incognito Originally by: Steve Celeste Would have been a nice drop, too bad that CCP set the drop chance for that item to ABSOLUTELY ZERO I would like to nip this in the but, PLEX drop just like any other cargo using exactly the same rules. If the PLEX are in a can and the can doesn't drop as loot then everything in the can doesn't drop as loot. In this case it was one role of the die and the can didn't drop, so bye bye all the contents. well thank you for posting, but the fact that your company isn't bothered by this "destruction of over $1000 really bothers me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRlrFudaEs8 we all love to see lots of "real" money destroyed. You can see even bigger "isk sink" in link above. I linked this one because I like the emotions in it :) Anyway you totally miss the point when you emo-rage over the ammount "real money" destroyed. The problem is not in the ammount destroyed, the problem is in effort needed to destroy such ammount. In one case it was huge effort on one side, and probably little ammount of stupidity on the other. In our latest example, it was huge ammount of stupidity vs. relativelly low ammount of effort needed. You should stop crying for the fact that devs allowed popssibility of huge loss caused by big ammount of stupidity. I personally find it hilarious, and I actually try to play for good guys in EvE :) __________________________________ I do it myyyy wayyyy... Milky Way.
Vlayde Riser Amarr Vlayde-Tek	Posted - 2010.08.08 20:29:00 - [279] This is a joke right? Over 1000$ inside a t1 frigate piloted by an alliance leader, and he decides to undock it in Jita? How does someone with such poor common-sense manage to even lead an alliance? If it were me, I would've ordered every alliance member to hop in a logistics and to stick on my ass until all of those plexes were safe.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.08.08 20:38:00 - [280] Originally by: Vlayde Riser How does someone with such poor common-sense manage to even lead an alliance? You seem to be labouring under the pretense that most alliance leaders actually have common sense. Endless greed and no morals certainly along with a decent amount of intelligence and charisma but common sense? looks back at all the outright threats made against ccp's sov 2.0 by said alliance leaders stating that they would do anything in their power to make sure sov 2.0 failed horribly Ohhhh boy.. Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.

Aera Aiana Amarr	Posted - 2010.08.08 20:47:00 - [281] Originally by: Sarina Berghil Very few players would intentionally buy a PLEX with the sole purpose of destroying it. Very few players would intentionally buy a ship with the sole purpose of destroying it. Yet, it happens every day at a lowsec gate near you. Originally by: Sarina Berghil The last option isn't even a technical necessity, its only there because CCP designed for it. So? All they did is stop making exceptions for one item. Actually, they still make one exception: You can still use a PLEX from anywhere in the galaxy, so it's really up to a player's own judgement (or lack thereof) to undock and get shot down with an ungodly amount of PLEX in their cargohold. -
Ai Mei Starfish Operating Syndicate	Posted - 2010.08.08 20:58:00 - [282] So.............. Why is everyone whining and hating? Dumbass undocked with a wardec going on. he put all the plexes in a can. can didnt survive. So whats the problem, no mechanics are broken, everything worked as intended. BTW CCP GAVE EVERYONE FAIR WARNING THAT THIS WOULD HAPPEN. THEY EVEN STATED TRANSPORT PLEX AT YOUR OWN RISK. So it there has been any problem with this, its that this guy didn't bother to listen to ccp or the fact he undocked with WT's in system. You can't fix stupid ya know.
Ayumi Fargazer	Posted - 2010.08.08 20:58:00 - [283] all i can say is that undocking PLEXes in something smaller then a tanked cloaky T3 is ******ed and that anyone doing so in an untanked(!) T1(!!) FRIGATTE(!!!) during an empire war(!!!!) deserves whatever happens next... its not rocket science really to realize that doing this was a bad idea
Bomberlocks Minmatar CTRL-Q	Posted - 2010.08.08 21:15:00 - [284] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Isten Baba Originally by: Liang Nuren Oh man, what makes this even more hilarious is that from their killboard comments it appears to have been the entire alliance wallet and their sov fund. -Liang Sorry, I'm a bit of a noob: could someone post a link to that forum? I can't seem to find it, but would love to read those reactions... http://www.smalliance.com/killboards/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=2847 http://ad0pt.evekb.co.uk/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=1539031 -Liang o/ Liang. I think I'm getting soft in my old age. I feel sort of sorry for the rest of those guys in that (presumably soon to be ex-) alliance.
Cap II GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.08.08 21:37:00 - [285] Originally by: Ranger 1 It's not destroyable if you don't undock with it. There is absolutely no reason to undock with PLEXs in your cargo...especially that many of them. For all we know he could've done that to spark this very thread. Sure, PLEX are generated from RL cash, but people shouldn't be stupid enough to undock with a bunch of them. Close, but not quite. GTC's are generated from RL cash. PLEX are generated from the conscious decision to turn that GTC into two game items that are destructible and have no RL value. CCP, could you please make it so that we cannot undock. Otherwise we might get our pixels injured. YOU MUST PROTECT US FROM OURSELVES. WE CANNOT BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR OWN BAD IN GAME DECISIONS You are completely stupid if you actually believe this. Exchange rates are always a two way street regardless of whether or not the powers that be sanction it. Black markets are still markets and every single in game item has some sort of real world monetary value. This concept is called opportunity cost and you should look into it. [yellow]Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes[
Xtreem Gallente DEATHFUNK Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.08 21:45:00 - [286] that is a pretty epic loss! if those had dropped on me id sub up for 2 years and sell the rest for excellent isk gains.. how was there no hate mail for that one!!!
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.08.08 21:49:00 - [287] Edited by: Cipher Jones on 08/08/2010 21:53:05 Originally by: Apollo Gabriel Originally by: CCP Incognito Originally by: Steve Celeste Would have been a nice drop, too bad that CCP set the drop chance for that item to ABSOLUTELY ZERO I would like to nip this in the but, PLEX drop just like any other cargo using exactly the same rules. If the PLEX are in a can and the can doesn't drop as loot then everything in the can doesn't drop as loot. In this case it was one role of the die and the can didn't drop, so bye bye all the contents. well thank you for posting, but the fact that your company isn't bothered by this "destruction of over $1000 really bothers me. Captain fire torpedos, target his REAL wallet. I was ok with movable plex as a concept, but this situation tells me to absolutely oppose it now. Real purchased game time should not be destroyable. You post literally infuriates me. why is it ok to kill a space ship paid for with real world money, but not an in game item paid for with real world money? The only difference at all is you only have to convert a GTC once to make it a plex, twice to make it a space ship. Quote: o CCP, the same company that says "FU players, everything new, nothing fixed for 18 months" just got a nice bit of free cash? Sounds like a ****ing scam to me, and quite possibly something that could get them into legal trouble. 1. You are an idiot for misquoting CCP. 2. Its not even close to fraud. I explained this over and over. Why don't you go look up the legal definition of fraud and post it here and illustrate to us how CCP is in the wrong. This is clearly a signature.
Aerilis Gallente Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2010.08.08 22:23:00 - [288] Originally by: Cipher Jones You post literally infuriates me. why is it ok to kill a space ship paid for with real world money, but not an in game item paid for with real world money? The only difference at all is you only have to convert a GTC once to make it a plex, twice to make it a space ship. Because when you blow up a faction fit nightmare paid for with GTC's, somebody somewhere is still clicking "Apply PLEX as gametime" and getting gametime for rl money spent. When you blow up the actual PLEX, this doesn't happen. It's ok to not understand the concept, but don't be so arrogant as to be "infuriated" when it is you yourself that fails to see the important yet subtle distinction.
Jaqel Broadside	Posted - 2010.08.08 22:44:00 - [289] Actually I find this very, very, very wrong. It may well be fun to the simple minded, a warped sense of humour and those with very poor understanding of consequences. Basically CCP has devalued the worth of your money by allowing PLEX to be destroyed. Actually I cant believe this is actually legal, money exchanging hands for a service and because of a game mechanic that service entitlement and commitment has been bypassed. The original contract still stands and should be honoured to the best ability of CCP, not left to the four winds of chance. Quite honestly I don't think this is legal at all.
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.08.08 22:52:00 - [290] Edited by: Ressiv on 08/08/2010 22:52:23 Using my own post from different topic to reply here: Originally by: Ressiv Originally by: Hiroshima Jita CCP probably ecstatic that people can pay them 1K$ and then blow it all up. CCP doesn't have to provide service or anything in that exchange. This is what bugs me about you people ... let me explain: John Doe buys 74 PLEX' off the market. 74 people just got the service they wanted for that PLEX. They got the ISK they choose to convert the PLEX to. John Doe is either going to sell them elsewhere for a markup, or using them for his own gametime. If he is going to use it for gametime, he can apply them whenever he wants, from wherever he is, as long as he keeps them in the first layer of his hangar. (not in a container or something, tho this is speculation on my part) He also got his 'service'. If John Doe decides (look up the meaning of that word if you are confused about this issue) to try and make more ISK of them then he paid for them. John Doe just decided to use those PLEX' as trade commodity. Now please give me ONE good reason, why this trade commodity should have a special status, while the service the original 'creator' of the PLEX is provided. CCP didn't code it so that you can loose your PLEX if you dont decide to make it vulnerable by undocking it. ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================

ShadowandLight Amarr Doom Guard Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.08.08 22:55:00 - [291] Originally by: Ressiv Edited by: Ressiv on 08/08/2010 22:52:23 Using my own post from different topic to reply here: Originally by: Ressiv Originally by: Hiroshima Jita CCP probably ecstatic that people can pay them 1K$ and then blow it all up. CCP doesn't have to provide service or anything in that exchange. This is what bugs me about you people ... let me explain: John Doe buys 74 PLEX' off the market. 74 people just got the service they wanted for that PLEX. They got the ISK they choose to convert the PLEX to. John Doe is either going to sell them elsewhere for a markup, or using them for his own gametime. If he is going to use it for gametime, he can apply them whenever he wants, from wherever he is, as long as he keeps them in the first layer of his hangar. (not in a container or something, tho this is speculation on my part) He also got his 'service'. If John Doe decides (look up the meaning of that word if you are confused about this issue) to try and make more ISK of them then he paid for them. John Doe just decided to use those PLEX' as trade commodity. Now please give me ONE good reason, why this trade commodity should have a special status, while the service the original 'creator' of the PLEX is provided. CCP didn't code it so that you can loose your PLEX if you dont decide to make it vulnerable by undocking it. All very well said, CCP has also made various statements that eve is a sandbox etc etc. My only question here is / was CCP motivated to make Plex's movable BECAUSE they were hoping for situations like this. If a plex is in a cargo hold, there is a 50/50 chance it will get destroyed. Win / Win situation for CCP imo..... ------- "The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1 Hoist the Colors!
Hatsumi Kobayashi D00M. Excessum Messor	Posted - 2010.08.08 22:57:00 - [292] lol @ people whining and *****ing at CCP for "stealing". The only difference between a 330mil PLEX and a CN invuln is that you can convert the former to RL money (gametime). Get a grip. Nice kill, Privateers/0rphans (and nice drama bomb) _____
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.08.08 22:59:00 - [293] Originally by: Ori Blake It depends how he bought the plex. If with ISK, the PLEX was honored already: the original user got his ISK for them. Only if he bought them with cash and was going to sell them would he have a claim, but chances are he'd be chargebacking CCP for them as we speak, and it would be a toss-up whether the rationales people give on forum would be seen the same way by a CC company. With ISK though it's just like buying a ship, they aren't obligated to provide the goods if they get destroyed. CCP wins, original seller wins, buyer loses. Except, of course, you don't buy PLEX with money. You buy GTC's with money. You could conceivably get a refund for a GTC. They are not destructible in game. They are not an in game item. They have a real world value. You get a PLEX either by spending valueless in game currency, or by making the conscious decision to turn the GTC into 2 valueless (destructable, stealable, lootable) in game items. They no longer have a monetary value, and are not refundable. If these PLEX had dropped and the attacking pilots had picked them up (or anyone else for that matter) would that have made you happy that CCP was having to reimburse them? Or would you be accusing those pilots of actual theft? ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Aerilis Gallente Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2010.08.08 23:01:00 - [294] Originally by: Ranger 1 Originally by: Ori Blake It depends how he bought the plex. If with ISK, the PLEX was honored already: the original user got his ISK for them. Only if he bought them with cash and was going to sell them would he have a claim, but chances are he'd be chargebacking CCP for them as we speak, and it would be a toss-up whether the rationales people give on forum would be seen the same way by a CC company. With ISK though it's just like buying a ship, they aren't obligated to provide the goods if they get destroyed. CCP wins, original seller wins, buyer loses. Except, of course, you don't buy PLEX with money. You buy GTC's with money. You could conceivably get a refund for a GTC. They are not destructible in game. They are not an in game item. They have a real world value. You get a PLEX either by spending valueless in game currency, or by making the conscious decision to turn the GTC into 2 valueless (destructable, stealable, lootable) in game items. They no longer have a monetary value, and are not refundable. If these PLEX had dropped and the attacking pilots had picked them up (or anyone else for that matter) would that have made you happy that CCP was having to reimburse them? Or would you be accusing those pilots of actual theft? If CCP made PLEXs drop 100% of the time, we would be happy and stop rage-posting on threads like these. I don't care about individual pilots, I only care if CCP is removing value from the playerbase as a whole. The Orphanage can have all the PLEXs in game for all I care.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.08.08 23:03:00 - [295] Originally by: Cap II Originally by: Ranger 1 It's not destroyable if you don't undock with it. There is absolutely no reason to undock with PLEXs in your cargo...especially that many of them. For all we know he could've done that to spark this very thread. Sure, PLEX are generated from RL cash, but people shouldn't be stupid enough to undock with a bunch of them. Close, but not quite. GTC's are generated from RL cash. PLEX are generated from the conscious decision to turn that GTC into two game items that are destructible and have no RL value. CCP, could you please make it so that we cannot undock. Otherwise we might get our pixels injured. YOU MUST PROTECT US FROM OURSELVES. WE CANNOT BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR OWN BAD IN GAME DECISIONS You are completely stupid if you actually believe this. Exchange rates are always a two way street regardless of whether or not the powers that be sanction it. Black markets are still markets and every single in game item has some sort of real world monetary value. This concept is called opportunity cost and you should look into it. So tell me, my friend, what legal means do you employ to turn PLEX into RL currency? And if you are referring to illegal means, perhaps you should chose your words carefully. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.08.08 23:07:00 - [296] Originally by: Aerilis Originally by: Ranger 1 Originally by: Ori Blake It depends how he bought the plex. If with ISK, the PLEX was honored already: the original user got his ISK for them. Only if he bought them with cash and was going to sell them would he have a claim, but chances are he'd be chargebacking CCP for them as we speak, and it would be a toss-up whether the rationales people give on forum would be seen the same way by a CC company. With ISK though it's just like buying a ship, they aren't obligated to provide the goods if they get destroyed. CCP wins, original seller wins, buyer loses. Except, of course, you don't buy PLEX with money. You buy GTC's with money. You could conceivably get a refund for a GTC. They are not destructible in game. They are not an in game item. They have a real world value. You get a PLEX either by spending valueless in game currency, or by making the conscious decision to turn the GTC into 2 valueless (destructable, stealable, lootable) in game items. They no longer have a monetary value, and are not refundable. If these PLEX had dropped and the attacking pilots had picked them up (or anyone else for that matter) would that have made you happy that CCP was having to reimburse them? Or would you be accusing those pilots of actual theft? If CCP made PLEXs drop 100% of the time, we would be happy and stop rage-posting on threads like these. I don't care about individual pilots, I only care if CCP is removing value from the playerbase as a whole. The Orphanage can have all the PLEXs in game for all I care. That "value" was removed when the item was converted to a PLEX... and CCP had nothing to do with that. That was purely a player decision. A PLEX has zero legal real world value, the same as any other in game item. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Atticus Fynch Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2010.08.08 23:12:00 - [297] Originally by: CCP Incognito Originally by: Steve Celeste Would have been a nice drop, too bad that CCP set the drop chance for that item to ABSOLUTELY ZERO I would like to nip this in the but, PLEX drop just like any other cargo using exactly the same rules. If the PLEX are in a can and the can doesn't drop as loot then everything in the can doesn't drop as loot. In this case it was one role of the die and the can didn't drop, so bye bye all the contents. No offense but Plex is the one in game item that means income for CCP, so I wouldn't be surprised if the code was tweaked in the company's favor.
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.08.08 23:15:00 - [298] Edited by: Ressiv on 08/08/2010 23:15:10 Originally by: Cap II You are completely stupid if you actually believe this. Exchange rates are always a two way street regardless of whether or not the powers that be sanction it. Black markets are still markets and every single in game item has some sort of real world monetary value. This concept is called opportunity cost and you should look into it. You should ask your economy teacher for a refresher before you lecture people. The opportunity cost of a particular choice is the next best alternative that you would have chosen. This is the thing you give up in order to obtain the thing you choose. ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
Brannor McThife Caldari Brotherhood of the Ancients	Posted - 2010.08.08 23:15:00 - [299] First off, the pilot was rather silly...but that's another discussion. Sky Marshal earlier raised a valid point in that PLEX is not "like any other ingame item". Any item that you can buy with ISK comes from NPCs or from production of items from blueprints, loot drops, etc. I've never heard of a PLEX entering the game via NPCs or via mining - imagine the scene, popping a roid and there lies a golden can of plex... ) So, they are unique in the properties they have - the sole legal way of purchasing ingame value for RL cash. To make it truly like other items, and not a special case, two things need to happen: 1) PLEX needs to be seeded, however rarely, into the game as a item drop, or heaven forbid, something that can be manufactured from BPO / BPC - yes, the mineral / item requirements can add up to rough market value of 300mil ISK. 2) The EvE store needs to be expanded and allow you to purchase actual ingame items. So if I'm stuck in deep 0.0 without a decent ship, I should be able to login to the store quick and purchase a carrier or even a Titan and buy it with RL money. After all, and please get this point - if a PLEX is not special, then all other items should exude the same/similar properties as PLEX. It is not a mono-directional relationship. Anyway. As said before. Until PLEX becomes a true ingame item whose only entry point into the game is to magically spawn in your hangar, then it is a special case item, unique in its properties. Note, at no point did I say that CCP is being underhanded, etc. I am merely saying that they need to follow through on their "It's not a special case item" and actually make it so. That is all. -G
Jaqel Broadside	Posted - 2010.08.08 23:16:00 - [300] Originally by: Ranger 1 Originally by: Aerilis Originally by: Ranger 1 Originally by: Ori Blake It depends how he bought the plex. If with ISK, the PLEX was honored already: the original user got his ISK for them. Only if he bought them with cash and was going to sell them would he have a claim, but chances are he'd be chargebacking CCP for them as we speak, and it would be a toss-up whether the rationales people give on forum would be seen the same way by a CC company. With ISK though it's just like buying a ship, they aren't obligated to provide the goods if they get destroyed. CCP wins, original seller wins, buyer loses. Except, of course, you don't buy PLEX with money. You buy GTC's with money. You could conceivably get a refund for a GTC. They are not destructible in game. They are not an in game item. They have a real world value. You get a PLEX either by spending valueless in game currency, or by making the conscious decision to turn the GTC into 2 valueless (destructable, stealable, lootable) in game items. They no longer have a monetary value, and are not refundable. If these PLEX had dropped and the attacking pilots had picked them up (or anyone else for that matter) would that have made you happy that CCP was having to reimburse them? Or would you be accusing those pilots of actual theft? If CCP made PLEXs drop 100% of the time, we would be happy and stop rage-posting on threads like these. I don't care about individual pilots, I only care if CCP is removing value from the playerbase as a whole. The Orphanage can have all the PLEXs in game for all I care. That "value" was removed when the item was converted to a PLEX... and CCP had nothing to do with that. That was purely a player decision. A PLEX has zero legal real world value, the same as any other in game item. I think you will find that the method of how things are done doesnt mean anything. What matters is that CCP created a CONTRACT of service, that contract is legal and binding. CCP is duty bound by law to honour that contract to the best of their ability and if they cannot are subject to being sued and potentially put out of business for failure to honour the contract. The mechanic for the loss of the contract was a failure of duty by CCP to honour the contract to the best of their ability. All any player should have to do is provide proof they were the last legal owner of the contract and it is down to CCP to honour it. Quite simply the loss of the in game item was CCP problem not anyone elses pure and simple. It is down to CCP to provide the mechanics where the contract can be honoured not provide a mechanic whereby the contract can be destroyed. It's illegal IMHO.

achoura	Posted - 2010.08.08 23:27:00 - [301] Originally by: Liang Nuren CCP stol... HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAA OH GOD CAN'T STOP LAUGHING HAHAHAHAHAH!!!! Oh man, what makes this even more hilarious is that from their killboard comments it appears to have been the entire alliance wallet and their sov fund. -Liang Knowing you're richer than an alliance is amusing :) Why it wasn't in something that couldn't be alphaed like a freighter or orca instead of a tanked kestrel is well, yeh.. *The EVE servers and their patches* [b]"The data does not suggest that polished content sells better th
Nomad Vherokic	Posted - 2010.08.08 23:29:00 - [302] +1 Originally by: Brannor McThife Edited by: Brannor McThife on 08/08/2010 23:17:36 First off, the pilot was rather silly...but that's another discussion. Sky Marshal earlier raised a valid point in that PLEX is not "like any other ingame item". Any item that you can buy with ISK comes from NPCs or from production of items from blueprints, loot drops, etc. I've never heard of a PLEX entering the game via NPCs or via mining - imagine the scene, popping a roid and there lies a golden can of plex... ) So, they are unique in the properties they have - the sole legal way of purchasing ingame value for RL cash. To make it truly like other items, and not a special case, two things need to happen: 1) PLEX needs to be seeded, however rarely, into the game as a item drop, or heaven forbid, something that can be manufactured from BPO / BPC - yes, the mineral / item requirements can add up to rough market value of 300mil ISK. 2) The EvE store needs to be expanded and allow you to purchase actual ingame items. So if I'm stuck in deep 0.0 without a decent ship, I should be able to login to the store quick and purchase a carrier or even a Titan and buy it with RL money. After all, and please get this point - if a PLEX is not special, then all other items should exude the same/similar properties as PLEX. It is not a mono-directional relationship. Anyway. As said before. Until PLEX becomes a true ingame item whose only entry point into the game is not only to magically spawn in your hangar, it is a special case item, unique in its properties. Note, at no point did I say that CCP is being underhanded, etc. I am merely saying that they need to follow through on their "It's not a special case item" and actually make it so. That is all. -G
CyberRaver Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers	Posted - 2010.08.08 23:29:00 - [303] The only sad thing here is that rather then holding up theyre hands and saying "you got us" they are petitioning us for supposed hax, and exploits :) Ah well the tears are fueling our kestrel popping
Ayumi Fargazer	Posted - 2010.08.08 23:31:00 - [304] Edited by: Ayumi Fargazer on 08/08/2010 23:33:21 Originally by: Jaqel Broadside I think you will find that the method of how things are done doesnt mean anything. What matters is that CCP created a CONTRACT of service, that contract is legal and binding. CCP is duty bound by law to honour that contract to the best of their ability and if they cannot are subject to being sued and potentially put out of business for failure to honour the contract. The mechanic for the loss of the contract was a failure of duty by CCP to honour the contract to the best of their ability. All any player should have to do is provide proof they were the last legal owner of the contract and it is down to CCP to honour it. Quite simply the loss of the in game item was CCP problem not anyone elses pure and simple. It is down to CCP to provide the mechanics where the contract can be honoured not provide a mechanic whereby the contract can be destroyed. It's illegal IMHO. i disagree... if you have 10000Ç and decide to buy something for that money lets say diamonds and those diamonds burn up in a fire (yes diamonds burn) its your problem not the problem of whoever sold you the diamonds... the player exchanges real money for a comodity for trading (its highly unlikely that he bought 6 years of gametime for his personal use) and then said player DECIDED CONSCIOUSLY to undock them in a t1 frigate instead of keeping them in the station therefore the blame lies with the player for doing ******ed stuff not with CCP for not holding the hand of the player at any time in any case undocking in an untanked cyno kestrel with active wars and 22bn isk in cargo instead of a tanked T3 isnt quite a good idea...
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.08.08 23:34:00 - [305] The gentleman that lost he PLEX voluntarily accepted the risk when he either created the PLEX from GTC's, or when purchased them with ISK. He was in no way forced to put them at risk. It was a conscious decision. Try that line of reasoning with any company that requires you to present a gift card for redemption. If that gift card was stolen, lost, defaced or destroyed that is on you, not on the card issuer. Another interesting point, companies that offer physical gift certificates (such as say Best Buy here in the US) instead of online alternatives know full well that not all of them will survive to be redeemed. A percentage of them will have any of a wide variety of misfortunes (including simply being forgotten about) that will ultimately prevent them from being redeemed. That percentage is called profit, and there is nothing illegal or immoral about it. You are an adult and it is your responsibility to keep the "gift card" intact until you redeem it. That one of the better features of EVE, it has many of the pitfalls that reality has... and requires a certain amount of common sense to succeed at. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Jaqel Broadside	Posted - 2010.08.08 23:36:00 - [306] Originally by: Ayumi Fargazer Edited by: Ayumi Fargazer on 08/08/2010 23:33:21 Originally by: Jaqel Broadside I think you will find that the method of how things are done doesnt mean anything. What matters is that CCP created a CONTRACT of service, that contract is legal and binding. CCP is duty bound by law to honour that contract to the best of their ability and if they cannot are subject to being sued and potentially put out of business for failure to honour the contract. The mechanic for the loss of the contract was a failure of duty by CCP to honour the contract to the best of their ability. All any player should have to do is provide proof they were the last legal owner of the contract and it is down to CCP to honour it. Quite simply the loss of the in game item was CCP problem not anyone elses pure and simple. It is down to CCP to provide the mechanics where the contract can be honoured not provide a mechanic whereby the contract can be destroyed. It's illegal IMHO. i disagree... if you have 10000Ç and decide to buy something for that money lets say diamonds and those diamonds burn up in a fire (yes diamonds burn) its your problem not the problem of whoever sold you the diamonds... the player exchanges real money for a comodity for trading (its highly unlikely that he bought 6 years of gametime for his personal use) and then said player DECIDED CONSCIOUSLY to undock them in a t1 frigate instead of keeping them in the station therefore the blame lies with the player for doing ******ed stuff not with CCP for not holding the hand of the player at any time in any case undocking in an untanked cyno kestrel with active wars and 22bn isk in cargo instead of a tanked T3 isnt quite a good idea... I think you are missing the point. It's not an item,,, it's a CONTRACT. You cannot destroy a CONTRACT, it is legal and binding for a service. The last legal owner of the contract holds the rights of the contract. CCP is duty bound to honour the contract by the EULA and legally as well. CCP cannot create a "Mechanic" whereby a third party can destroy your rights,,,
Aerilis Gallente Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2010.08.08 23:38:00 - [307] I'm not a law major or anything and I have no idea about the legality of it, but I think this is what happened. Hilmar: Hey guys, it's probably illegal to get PLEXs blown up, so lets make it so that people can't undock with them, just to be on the safe side. some time later Lawyer: So you see, because of EULA, fine print laws, etc., it actually IS legal to let these items get blown up. And when they do, you'll make an extra $15! Hilmar: Sweet! You there, Dev, make it so that people can undock with PLEXs, ASAP! Eve players are a bunch of morons, so I'm sure a bunch will get blown up! Hahahah! Laughs all the way to the bank
Ayumi Fargazer	Posted - 2010.08.08 23:39:00 - [308] Edited by: Ayumi Fargazer on 08/08/2010 23:41:25 Originally by: Jaqel Broadside I think you are missing the point. It's not an item,,, it's a CONTRACT. You cannot destroy a CONTRACT, it is legal and binding for a service. The last legal owner of the contract holds the rights of the contract. CCP is duty bound to honour the contract by the EULA and legally as well. CCP cannot create a "Mechanic" whereby a third party can destroy your rights,,, true not the best analogy, the gift card/voucher analogy by the guy one below me is much better and demonstrates what it would be like in RL... have a voucher/giftcard in your car and someone sets fire to your car... you are now out of a car AND a giftcard despite the fact that someone already paid for said giftcard and no real value has been redeemed for it yet... still noone will replace it in any case you dont have a "right" to the playtime you paid for when you buy a plex. you can redeem it at any time from any place without it ever being at risk. if you take the plex out into space you are making a conscious decision to put it at risk just as with any other ingame item
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.08.08 23:39:00 - [309] Originally by: Jaqel Broadside It's not an item,,, it's a CONTRACT. Citation Needed ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
Aerilis Gallente Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2010.08.08 23:42:00 - [310] Edited by: Aerilis on 08/08/2010 23:43:40 Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 08/08/2010 23:37:59 Quote: Quite simply the loss of the in game item was CCP problem not anyone elses pure and simple. It is down to CCP to provide the mechanics where the contract can be honoured not provide a mechanic whereby the contract can be destroyed. It's illegal IMHO. The gentleman that lost he PLEX voluntarily accepted the risk when he either created the PLEX from GTC's, or when purchased them with ISK. He was in no way forced to put them at risk. It was a conscious decision. Try that line of reasoning with any company that requires you to present a gift card for redemption. If that gift card was stolen, lost, defaced or destroyed that is on you, not on the card issuer. Another interesting point, companies that offer physical gift certificates (such as say Best Buy here in the US) instead of online alternatives know full well that not all of them will survive to be redeemed. A percentage of them will have any of a wide variety of misfortunes (including simply being forgotten about) that will ultimately prevent them from being redeemed. That percentage is called profit, and there is nothing illegal or immoral about it. You are an adult and it is your responsibility to keep the "gift card" intact until you redeem it. That's one of the better features of EVE, it has many of the pitfalls that reality has... and requires a certain amount of common sense to succeed at. Edited because I forgot the original quote. The gift card analogy looks good at first, but you missed a little tiny detail--Company X used to issue gift cards used to be indestructible and unstealable. But then Company X decided to change it so that gift cards were destroyable and stealable, and surrounded their store with muggers. On top of that, they made a deal with the muggers to get half the stolen gift cards back, and let the muggers keep the other half.

Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.08.08 23:44:00 - [311] Quote: It's not an item,,, it's a CONTRACT. You cannot destroy a CONTRACT, it is legal and binding for a service. That contract was completed when CCP handed over the GTC and provided a means to redeem it. The player chose to take things a step further, and CCP has no further contractual responsibilities until that GTC or a PLEX generated from it is redeemed... "if" it is ever redeemed. What happens to it in between is up to the player, who knows full well the risks and responsibilities. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Ayumi Fargazer	Posted - 2010.08.08 23:46:00 - [312] but they also made it so that you can redeem your giftcards without ever putting them at risk of being destroyed or stolen so there is no conceivable reason to put them at risk unless you choose to do so for whatever reason (like taking them to the next town because there is a sale there)
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.08.08 23:48:00 - [313] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 08/08/2010 23:49:35 Originally by: Aerilis Edited by: Aerilis on 08/08/2010 23:43:40 Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 08/08/2010 23:37:59 Quote: Quite simply the loss of the in game item was CCP problem not anyone elses pure and simple. It is down to CCP to provide the mechanics where the contract can be honoured not provide a mechanic whereby the contract can be destroyed. It's illegal IMHO. The gentleman that lost he PLEX voluntarily accepted the risk when he either created the PLEX from GTC's, or when purchased them with ISK. He was in no way forced to put them at risk. It was a conscious decision. Try that line of reasoning with any company that requires you to present a gift card for redemption. If that gift card was stolen, lost, defaced or destroyed that is on you, not on the card issuer. Another interesting point, companies that offer physical gift certificates (such as say Best Buy here in the US) instead of online alternatives know full well that not all of them will survive to be redeemed. A percentage of them will have any of a wide variety of misfortunes (including simply being forgotten about) that will ultimately prevent them from being redeemed. That percentage is called profit, and there is nothing illegal or immoral about it. You are an adult and it is your responsibility to keep the "gift card" intact until you redeem it. That's one of the better features of EVE, it has many of the pitfalls that reality has... and requires a certain amount of common sense to succeed at. Edited because I forgot the original quote. The gift card analogy looks good at first, but you missed a little tiny detail--Company X used to issue gift cards used to be indestructible and unstealable. But then Company X decided to change it so that gift cards were destroyable and stealable, and surrounded their store with muggers. On top of that, they made a deal with the muggers to get half the stolen gift cards back, and let the muggers keep the other half. They could arm the muggers with AK 47's if they wanted to, but if they tell you all of this in a detailed fashion before you buy the "gift card" and you proceed to not only purchase it but paste it to your forehead as you walk out the door it is you who are to blame my friend. And as was stated in the post above, they also provided a completely safe and reliable way to redeem that "gift card" with no risk at all. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Lord Orefinger	Posted - 2010.08.08 23:54:00 - [314] Note for you noobs: Just because CCP gives you the opportunity to take a large risk, it does not mean you have to take it. If you take a risk and something goes wrong and you lose what you risked, its your fault for taking the stupid risk. Don't risk what you can not afford to lose and you will be fine.
DMF KingBob	Posted - 2010.08.08 23:55:00 - [315] CCP Created a gameplay mechanic to destroy/remove there own (already payed)product only stupid guys can find this ok and if PLEX should be a complete normal item... - why it could not be dropt by any NPCs ? - why it could not be builded whith a Blueprint ? - why it can be only created with real money?(the only item in the complete game) the facts are clear.....
Jaqel Broadside	Posted - 2010.08.08 23:56:00 - [316] Originally by: Ranger 1 Quote: It's not an item,,, it's a CONTRACT. You cannot destroy a CONTRACT, it is legal and binding for a service. That contract was completed when CCP handed over the GTC and provided a means to redeem it. The player chose to take things a step further, and CCP has no further contractual responsibilities until that GTC or a PLEX generated from it is redeemed... "if" it is ever redeemed. What happens to it in between is up to the player, who knows full well the risks and responsibilities. Actually CCP provides a service whereby the contracts can be bought and sold. And on top of that honours the contracts bought and sold in this way. The contract has a value, CCP recognise that value in the fact it can be traded and redeemed. CCP is duty bound to honour the contract not destroy it via a third party.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.08.08 23:57:00 - [317] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 08/08/2010 23:57:59 Quote: the facts are clear..... ... but your logic is flawed and fuzzy. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Aerilis Gallente Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2010.08.08 23:58:00 - [318] Originally by: Ranger 1 They could arm the muggers with AK 47's if they wanted to, but if they tell you all of this in a detailed fashion before you buy the "gift card" and you proceed to not only purchase it but paste it to your forehead as you walk out the door it is you who are to blame my friend. Yes they could have, and yes you were warned. They're not pure evil, just slightly unethical. I mean come on, would it be that hard to give them a 100% drop rate.
Shawna Gray Gallente	Posted - 2010.08.09 00:00:00 - [319] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Isten Baba Originally by: Liang Nuren Oh man, what makes this even more hilarious is that from their killboard comments it appears to have been the entire alliance wallet and their sov fund. -Liang Sorry, I'm a bit of a noob: could someone post a link to that forum? I can't seem to find it, but would love to read those reactions... http://www.smalliance.com/killboards/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=2847 http://ad0pt.evekb.co.uk/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=1539031 -Liang Haha the comments from cypher on that killboard is hilarious.
Jaqel Broadside	Posted - 2010.08.09 00:00:00 - [320] The whole point about risk and stuff is irrelevant,,, the contract is a RL legal document. CCP cannot destroy that contract through a fictional game mechanic actioned by a third party. Imagine if someone could turn off your water supply, electricity, phone etc via a 3rd party computer mechanic. CCP has mixed up RL and fiction,,

Shawna Gray Gallente	Posted - 2010.08.09 00:04:00 - [321] Originally by: Jaqel Broadside The whole point about risk and stuff is irrelevant,,, the contract is a RL legal document. CCP cannot destroy that contract through a fictional game mechanic actioned by a third party. Imagine if someone could turn off your water supply, electricity, phone etc via a 3rd party computer mechanic. CCP has mixed up RL and fiction,, Failed law school student alert.
Isten Baba	Posted - 2010.08.09 00:04:00 - [322] Of all the very real problems with CCP's recent choices and flawed strategy, you guys decide to rant about this non-issue?? This guy used PLEX as any other in-game item can be used, and lost it. The moment you use plex in-game (or a voucher, or anything else in real life), it's your responsibility. And being an idiot can lead to losing it (in EVE, as well as in real life). So why all the fuss? People can argue the legal merits all day long (by the way, there is no legal merit to the "it's a legally binding contract" line), but how about instead using some common sense? Anyone who travels in EVE (with or without PLEX) should know the risks, even new players. This guy is an Alliance leader. He had 72 plexes. In a Kestrel. In Jita. While being at war. Please, let's go back to ranting about more relevant problems with EVE. This really is not one of them.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.08.09 00:05:00 - [323] Originally by: Aerilis Originally by: Ranger 1 They could arm the muggers with AK 47's if they wanted to, but if they tell you all of this in a detailed fashion before you buy the "gift card" and you proceed to not only purchase it but paste it to your forehead as you walk out the door it is you who are to blame my friend. Yes they could have, and yes you were warned. They're not pure evil, just slightly unethical. I mean come on, would it be that hard to give them a 100% drop rate. It would be unethical if you were not given a completely safe and secure way to redeem them. They even warned people pointedly that transporting them was extremely dangerous. With respect for your line of reasoning, you might also consider that if they had a 100% drop rate two things would be true. 1: The would still be an exception as to how every other in game item is handled in terms of transporting them, which they were trying to get away from. 2: The chance of being suicide ganked to obtain them would more than double, as the suicide ganker no longer has to weigh the odds as to whether the gank will be profitable or not due to the percentage chance of destruction. He will know for a fact whether the gank will be worth it or not. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
WhiteSavage Gallente Ever Flow Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.09 00:10:00 - [324] You people are fools. This is not life... this is a video game. and CCP found a way to rob unlucky fools of their rl money... and they went for it. A few people seem to have trouble wrapping their heads around these basic principles. - We all pay CCP a set value for the promise of gametime/access per character. - A plex is merely a virtual-ized form of this guarantee... and can be traded back in forth for ingame currency. - Such an item, obviously... is unique and different to any other item ingame. isk - plex ratio's change constantly... but to CCP a plex is always worth a preset $. - By allowing plex to be destroyed, CCP gains rl money. dollar for dollar. There is literally no reason for CCP to enact such a policy change... other then outright, apathetic greed.
Lord Orefinger	Posted - 2010.08.09 00:14:00 - [325] To the noobs talking about contracts: Your "contract" is to be able to use the "game time code" (GTC) you bought to redeem it for an item (in this case a PLEX) that gives you game time if you use that item, not to be able to buy a game time code (gtc) that grants game time directly. There is a subtly here that many of you don't seem to understand. So stop whining about contracts in your ignorance, because you clearly don't know what you are talking about. It makes me sad panda that a big carebear like me has to explain this to all of you, it really does.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.08.09 00:15:00 - [326] Originally by: WhiteSavage You people are fools. This is not life... this is a video game. and CCP found a way to rob unlucky fools of their rl money... and they went for it. A few people seem to have trouble wrapping their heads around these basic principles. - We all pay CCP a set value for the promise of gametime/access per character. - A plex is merely a virtual-ized form of this guarantee... and can be traded back in forth for ingame currency. - Such an item, obviously... is unique and different to any other item ingame. isk - plex ratio's change constantly... but to CCP a plex is always worth a preset $. - By allowing plex to be destroyed, CCP gains rl money. dollar for dollar. There is literally no reason for CCP to enact such a policy change... other then outright, apathetic greed. You can call it greed if you wish, but they are no different than 1000's of other vendors that offer physical gift cards that can be lost, stolen or destroyed instead of doing so purely by electronic means. Except, of course, they do offer a 100% secure method of handling things. You have to consciously decided not to do things that way. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Shawna Gray Gallente	Posted - 2010.08.09 00:18:00 - [327] Originally by: WhiteSavage There is literally no reason for CCP to enact such a policy change... other then outright, apathetic greed. They did it to give us the most hilarious killmail of the year. Best decision ever from CCP.
Aerilis Gallente Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2010.08.09 00:18:00 - [328] Originally by: Ranger 1 1: They would still be an exception as to how every other in game item is handled in terms of transporting them, which they were trying to get away from. They are the only item that can only be created with RL money, CCP's entire retinue about "making them the same as other ingame items" is a farce. If they truly wanted to make them like other items, they would make them drop from rate/have bpos/etc. But of course that would make them lose money, so no way they would do that.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.08.09 00:24:00 - [329] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 09/08/2010 00:25:26 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 09/08/2010 00:24:26 Originally by: Aerilis Originally by: Ranger 1 1: They would still be an exception as to how every other in game item is handled in terms of transporting them, which they were trying to get away from. They are the only item that can only be created with RL money, CCP's entire retinue about "making them the same as other ingame items" is a farce. If they truly wanted to make them like other items, they would make them drop from rate/have bpos/etc. But of course that would make them lose money, so no way they would do that. Of course they have a different method of creation, for reasons that are self evident. However once created their code had to be handled in a completely different fashion from all other in game items in regards to how they could/could not be transported. It is always a good idea to eliminate special case scenario's in any code when possible. Honestly, I could care less as to why they did it. They were well within their rights to do so and handled it in a fair and equitable fashion. You have to be trying really hard to screw it up. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Lord Orefinger	Posted - 2010.08.09 00:28:00 - [330] Originally by: Ranger 1 You can call it greed if you wish, but they are no different than 1000's of other vendors that offer physical gift cards that can be lost, stolen or destroyed instead of doing so purely by electronic means. I agree.

Jaqel Broadside	Posted - 2010.08.09 00:35:00 - [331] Lol,, actually this could really be quite entertaining to see what sphere of law this would come under. I think in reality seeing as these PLEX's have a cash value associated with them and they are traded it might even come under the FSA's remit. Lol, imagine if CCP were put under the obligation of providing a secure and bullet proof system to allow trading of these items,,, ROFL
Cobalt Sixty Caldari Genos Occidere	Posted - 2010.08.09 00:36:00 - [332] Edited by: Cobalt Sixty on 09/08/2010 00:38:24 Oh my gawd, the kill board comments. This is the sort of thing ISD should write about. Let everyone see the fail after logon. P.S. if CCP were confident enough to disappear a CSM member over an NDA violation and confidently wore the small **** storm that followed, chances are they know what they're doing regarding PLEX destruction.
Yonos GeoCorp. -Mostly Harmless-	Posted - 2010.08.09 00:38:00 - [333] Confirming these spacemonkeys are just plain dumb. We war decked them a month ago (in my last corp) and they had an orca in a belt just as the timer to active war counted down. We easily ganked it with a cloaky recon and took out two of their towers. That it was these clowns to do the new big no-no doesn't surprise me.
Shawna Gray Gallente	Posted - 2010.08.09 00:48:00 - [334] Edited by: Shawna Gray on 09/08/2010 00:49:05 Originally by: Jaqel Broadside Lol, imagine if CCP were put under the obligation of providing a secure and bullet proof system to allow trading of these items,,, ROFL Its already safer than cash. You have to make a conscious effort to destroy them yourself.
Denidil Gallente Rape Pillage and Burn	Posted - 2010.08.09 00:52:00 - [335] Edited by: Denidil on 09/08/2010 00:52:34 [redacted] oh nevermind.. the crybabies in this thread are just too dumb to bother talking to.
Apollo Gabriel Domini Lex Talionis Etherium Cartel	Posted - 2010.08.09 00:56:00 - [336] Originally by: WhiteSavage You people are fools. This is not life... this is a video game. and CCP found a way to rob unlucky fools of their rl money... and they went for it. A few people seem to have trouble wrapping their heads around these basic principles. - We all pay CCP a set value for the promise of gametime/access per character. - A plex is merely a virtual-ized form of this guarantee... and can be traded back in forth for ingame currency. - Such an item, obviously... is unique and different to any other item ingame. isk - plex ratio's change constantly... but to CCP a plex is always worth a preset $. - By allowing plex to be destroyed, CCP gains rl money. dollar for dollar. There is literally no reason for CCP to enact such a policy change... other then outright, apathetic greed. I absolutely agree, PLEX have no in game purpose, they have no in game effect. They should NOT be in game, nor moveable, nor destroyable. I am NOT saying anything about the idiot who had them. I am saying the mechanics should NOT allow them to move around, they should NOT enter the game, they have no in game purpose. TO CCP: The implicit promise of polished quality keeps me playing through the rough times. Don't let the Trolls keep you from your goals.
Thrasymachus TheSophist	Posted - 2010.08.09 01:03:00 - [337] Originally by: Apollo Gabriel Originally by: WhiteSavage You people are fools. This is not life... this is a video game. and CCP found a way to rob unlucky fools of their rl money... and they went for it. A few people seem to have trouble wrapping their heads around these basic principles. - We all pay CCP a set value for the promise of gametime/access per character. - A plex is merely a virtual-ized form of this guarantee... and can be traded back in forth for ingame currency. - Such an item, obviously... is unique and different to any other item ingame. isk - plex ratio's change constantly... but to CCP a plex is always worth a preset $. - By allowing plex to be destroyed, CCP gains rl money. dollar for dollar. There is literally no reason for CCP to enact such a policy change... other then outright, apathetic greed. I absolutely agree, PLEX have no in game purpose, they have no in game effect. They should NOT be in game, nor moveable, nor destroyable. I am NOT saying anything about the idiot who had them. I am saying the mechanics should NOT allow them to move around, they should NOT enter the game, they have no in game purpose. You're the ... fill in the blank. You can BUY a GTC. If you want to convert it into an "in game' asset (actually 2), known as a PLEX, then you can. Once its a PLEX, its an in-game asset that you can put on the market, carry around, whatever. Would you feel better if they said Dramiels could be traded in for 1 month game credit, and you could get 2 for a single GTC? This is stupid. Get over it. PLEX is an ingame object, subject to in game actions (loss, trade, etc.). If you don't want to put your precious game time at risk, then don't convert -just cash it in for game time when you get it. Oh wait, you bought it on the market? Then how's it different from a T2 Arbie launcher?
Ira Theos	Posted - 2010.08.09 01:09:00 - [338] But never forget! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOl1LqyUL4Q
Brannor McThife Caldari Brotherhood of the Ancients	Posted - 2010.08.09 01:10:00 - [339] Originally by: Thrasymachus TheSophist Then how's it different from a T2 Arbie launcher? None of us can manufacture it from a BPO/BPC. No NPC sells it. No NPC carries it. I cannot get it from an LP store. There is no way for it to exist other than via (someone) purchasing it with RL cash. Show me another item that can do that? (Without using PLEX). Right. Time to seed PLEX BPOs/BPCs. I don't care how much they cost to make or how long, but it's a farce saying they are just like other items. If you can trade it, it must come from in the game (Rat droppings or NPC Market in some way). -G
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.09 01:45:00 - [340] I would still like to know this: If I pay CCP for one month's subscription and then do absolutely nothing. No training, no ghost-datacorefarming, no active market orders, no S&Ià I don't even log in, and the only thing that happens on the account is that the character gets 30 days older. Have I then been defrauded by CCP, and should CCP be held accountable for letting this atrocity happen? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki

Nnamuachs Caldari Kiith Paktu Hiigaran Protectorate	Posted - 2010.08.09 01:47:00 - [341] Originally by: Brannor McThife Originally by: Thrasymachus TheSophist Then how's it different from a T2 Arbie launcher? None of us can manufacture it from a BPO/BPC. No NPC sells it. No NPC carries it. I cannot get it from an LP store. There is no way for it to exist other than via (someone) purchasing it with RL cash. Show me another item that can do that? (Without using PLEX). Right. Time to seed PLEX BPOs/BPCs. I don't care how much they cost to make or how long, but it's a farce saying they are just like other items. If you can trade it, it must come from in the game (Rat droppings or NPC Market in some way). -G So special awarded ships, such as the primae, apotheosis, state raven etc... Can "not" be gotten via construction, lp store, npc loot drop etc.. nor can they even be purchased. Would this make said items even "more" valuable than plex as they can't be acquired through any means at all? Additionally, What about the interbus shuttle? that can only be acquired via purchase and activation of an account from the boxed set of EvE Online. Thats basically purchasing the interbus shuttle only for cash. If any of these die are they also equivocated to a real life value as they can be gotten in no other manner?
Aiwha Caldari 101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.08.09 01:54:00 - [342] How *DARE* CCP force that poor pilot to undock with plexes in his hold! The absolute GALL!
Cap II GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.08.09 01:58:00 - [343] Originally by: Ranger 1 Originally by: Cap II Originally by: Ranger 1 It's not destroyable if you don't undock with it. There is absolutely no reason to undock with PLEXs in your cargo...especially that many of them. For all we know he could've done that to spark this very thread. Sure, PLEX are generated from RL cash, but people shouldn't be stupid enough to undock with a bunch of them. Close, but not quite. GTC's are generated from RL cash. PLEX are generated from the conscious decision to turn that GTC into two game items that are destructible and have no RL value. CCP, could you please make it so that we cannot undock. Otherwise we might get our pixels injured. YOU MUST PROTECT US FROM OURSELVES. WE CANNOT BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR OWN BAD IN GAME DECISIONS You are completely stupid if you actually believe this. Exchange rates are always a two way street regardless of whether or not the powers that be sanction it. Black markets are still markets and every single in game item has some sort of real world monetary value. This concept is called opportunity cost and you should look into it. So tell me, my friend, what legal means do you employ to turn PLEX into RL currency? And if you are referring to illegal means, perhaps you should chose your words carefully. Perhaps you really are stupid and didn't read so i'll go ahead and type it out for you again, this time with large bold text. Exchange rates are a two way street regardless of whether or not the powers that be sanction it. Black markets are still markets, and every single in game item has some real world monetary value. The fact that you're asking me what "legal" means is utterly irrelevant. Legal issues only come into play when determining value on black market goods. Going from dollars to isk the exchange rate is currently $35 to about 600mil isk. Going from isk to dollars the current exchange rate is somewhere in the ball park of 25 to 30 dollars per billion. The difference in cost coming from the fact that isk to dollars isn't sanctioned and therefore not "legal" but this does not impact the fact that 1 billion isk is worth approx $30 US. [yellow]Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes[
Bomberlocks Minmatar CTRL-Q	Posted - 2010.08.09 02:04:00 - [344] All of this bullsh*t talk about legally binding contracts etc is a waste of good ascii unless someone actually bothers to waste their time trying to get their lawyer to challenge the destructibility of PLEX. No one is going to do that from what I can see, so it'll just have to serve as an abject lesson on what not to do until the next idiot does it. And they will, because this is Eve, an intarwebs game where people like the tl;dr version of things and reading the lines of text on a dialog or doing a show info on the item is too much like hard work. But just to throw some more gas into this fire, how does this compare with RMT, say where the RMT transaction is legal in game (can't discuss the obvious details on these forums, but it's pretty easy to imagine how it would be done)? Hopefully, now I've mentioned RMT, they'll lock this thread.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.09 02:09:00 - [345] Oh, and btwà Originally by: Aerilis The gift card analogy looks good at first, but you missed a little tiny detail--Company X used to issue gift cards used to be indestructible and unstealable. No. Company X's gift cards were always destructible, with a 100% certainty of success. What they did was give us a new way of destroying them that wasn't 100% infallible. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Terminal Insanity Minmatar U-208	Posted - 2010.08.09 02:09:00 - [346] OP is a **in' moron. sorry. But nobody is forcing you to undock with PLEX. IF YOU CHOOSE, it will still function EXACTLY the way it did before. IT IS YOUR CHOICE to remove it from the station. Do so at your own risk. Don't be **y with CCP because you're a dolt. ~ ° ° ° ~ Non-Gameplay Enhancements!
Brannor McThife Caldari Brotherhood of the Ancients	Posted - 2010.08.09 02:22:00 - [347] Originally by: Nnamuachs So special awarded ships, such as the primae, apotheosis, state raven etc... Can "not" be gotten via construction, lp store, npc loot drop etc.. nor can they even be purchased. Would this make said items even "more" valuable than plex as they can't be acquired through any means at all? Additionally, What about the interbus shuttle? that can only be acquired via purchase and activation of an account from the boxed set of EvE Online. Thats basically purchasing the interbus shuttle only for cash. If any of these die are they also equivocated to a real life value as they can be gotten in no other manner? Awesome. Was waiting for someone to bring up gift/award ships. You 2nd and 3rd word said it. Special, Awarded. CCP claims that PLEX are not special. All the items you mentioned are special. And you are likening PLEX to them. Bingo. Yes, those ships are traded - some people pay extreme amounts for them like the Utu that recently sold in Jita for what, around 30 Billion? However, how did they enter the game? Did a player buy them for real life cash? No. As for the Interbus shuttle, well, like the Primae, it's a gimmick that will at some point in the future, maybe have significant value. However, you didn't actually pay for either ship. You paid for the game. Sorry, but PLEX is still unique and not like other items. AT ships are not paid for by RL money and in essence can be seen as being awarded to those players that completed a once-a-year mission for Concorde. I never once said they were MORE valuable. I perceive everything (else) as pure ISK and bits and bytes of data. However, PLEX is a RL commodity. Personally, I'd prefer if they never existed... they make people attach RL worth to game items, and that, put bluntly, takes the fun out of it. Anyway. My rebuttal is that your examples are not valid. :) -G
GrandMaster JAX	Posted - 2010.08.09 02:26:00 - [348] And CCP said: "Thou shall not undock what you cannot afford to loose", but the people didnt listen. And CCP said again: "If you blow up a ship that happens to be carrying PLEX, it may drop the PLEX as loot or it may be destroyed in the conflagration (much like any other item in a ship's cargo hold). The refund policies for PLEX will not be any different from any other item.", but the people didnt listen at all. Dev Blog - http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=776
Thrasymachus TheSophist	Posted - 2010.08.09 02:28:00 - [349] Brannor (and buds) - you keep sayign the same thing. Let me ask you this - would you feel better if after buying a GTC we could EITHER conver to PLEX, or convert to ISK, or just directly buy an item off contracts? You are teh only one making them "special". If the purchaser chooses to convert them to PLEX and then chooses to play with them "in game" (as opposed to just applying the time to their accoutns) then why do you get ****y when their in game asset goes boom? You do realize - when you buy a GTC you can just add the time to your account, right? You don't have to turn them into an in game asset and then run around with them, right? And if you DO chooose to do that ... why? This guy had 70+ of them - this is not some nub who bought a GTC and then was like "OOPS". Right? Bueller?
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.08.09 02:33:00 - [350] Edited by: Zeba on 09/08/2010 02:35:00 You getting all this down Prism X? This is some pretty informative social engineering data to be collated tbh. I mean really, Eve Online: Serious Buisiness. Originally by: ShadowandLight This is e x a c t l y what CCP wanted... Indeed. Why not let the natural greedy and aggressive nature of the games playerbase make them even moar money? Kudos to the guy who implimented it tbh. Like has been repeated over and over and over there is no practical need to actually move plex from the station it originally spawned in. So if someone does try to move it and gets wtfpwnd then all they have to blame are themselves. +$1295 usd ccp and too bad you haters are envious of ccp for actually finding even moar real life ways to profit off your endless virtual greed. Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.

King Aires Reliables Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.08.09 02:39:00 - [351] Originally by: Tippia I would still like to know this: If I pay CCP for one month's subscription and then do absolutely nothing. No training, no ghost-datacorefarming, no active market orders, no S&Ià I don't even log in, and the only thing that happens on the account is that the character gets 30 days older. Have I then been defrauded by CCP, and should CCP be held accountable for letting this atrocity happen? Perfect, you entered into an agreement with CCP in this analogy where you paid for 30 days time, and they gave you access to the server for 30 days. This has nothing to do with CCP and their PLEX Scheme. From the in game description: "This item extends your game time by 30 days when activated. It cannot leave stations but may be traded on the market and through contracts, except courier." Translate that into a little common sense and you get: "This item is worth whatever you would normally pay for 30 days time" and they still haven't updated the leave stations bit. CCP is culpable 100% for any PLEX item lost because it is the only item in the game which has a direct impact on your ability to play the game, it is the only item which directly effects them as a company, and it is the only item which can be created with cash and subsequently turned back into cash from the game. The views expressed above are not those of my corp or an expression of where my corp stands.
Brannor McThife Caldari Brotherhood of the Ancients	Posted - 2010.08.09 02:41:00 - [352] Originally by: Thrasymachus TheSophist Brannor (and buds) - you keep sayign the same thing. Let me ask you this - would you feel better if after buying a GTC we could EITHER conver to PLEX, or convert to ISK, or just directly buy an item off contracts? I don't use them, but in essence, yes, allow people to buy any ingame item directly from outside the game, with RL money, and have it spawn at their location. This is done to apply the "just like other items" that CCP claims. Originally by: Thrasymachus TheSophist You are teh only one making them "special". If the purchaser chooses to convert them to PLEX and then chooses to play with them "in game" (as opposed to just applying the time to their accoutns) then why do you get **y when their in game asset goes boom? I don't care that it went boom. What I care about is claiming it's not special. It has several properties that no other item has. Period. Don't claim it's not special when it is. Originally by:** Thrasymachus TheSophist You do realize - when you buy a GTC you can just add the time to your account, right? You don't have to turn them into an in game asset and then run around with them, right? And if you DO chooose to do that ... why? This guy had 70+ of them - this is not some nub who bought a GTC and then was like "OOPS". I'd be happy if: (a) GTC could not be converted to PLEX. Thus, you buy a GTC, you use it. (b) If people wanted to buy gametime with ingame ISK, then create a T1/T2 BPO that requires special components that cost X (hell, they could be NPC seeded components) to manufacture, or why not just have PLEX as a NPC-sellable item that CCP can control the price of? I'm not against them being blown up. I am against a claim that they're now just like any other item, they are clearly not due to their utterly unique properties. tl;dr Remove the RL Currency to ISK link. It cheapens items in the game, and thus the game. G-A-M-E. -G
Jypsie	Posted - 2010.08.09 02:42:00 - [353] I think slickdog just one shotted an entire alliance. Hey Man, Nice Shot
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.09 02:43:00 - [354] Edited by: Tippia on 09/08/2010 02:45:18 Originally by: King Aires Perfect, you entered into an agreement with CCP in this analogy where you paid for 30 days time, and they gave you access to the server for 30 days. This has nothing to do with CCP and their PLEX Scheme. But the effect is exactly the same: CCP has been given $15 "for free" and hasn't provided the service I bought. So why is this any different than if I choose not to redeem the 30 days of a PLEX? Quote: CCP is culpable 100% for any PLEX item lost How can they be that when 0% of the PLEXes are lost unless a player actively chooses to make it happen? Why are they culpable for my choices? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Borun Tal Minmatar Spacepods Inc	Posted - 2010.08.09 02:46:00 - [355] Sorry, but I can't get over how monumentally stupid it was to move that many PLEX the way it was done. Just stupid.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.08.09 02:47:00 - [356] Edited by: Zeba on 09/08/2010 02:56:47 Originally by: Jypsie I think slickdog just one shotted an entire alliance. Hey Man, Nice Shot Then its an alliance in name only as 22 bil is probably sitting in one of my hangers if I arsed myself to open a random asset tab and count it all up. Real alliances deal with isk numbered in the trillions not billions. Also: Hey man, Nice link. I love that song. Originally by: Borun Tal Sorry, but I can't get over how monumentally stupid it was to move that many PLEX the way it was done. Just stupid. [tinfoil]Maybe it was a ccp alt that spawned 22 billion to buy the plex then he simply waited for the wartargets to show up and undocked?[/tinfoil] Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
Saphoseraph	Posted - 2010.08.09 03:25:00 - [357] Edited by: Saphoseraph on 09/08/2010 03:25:34 Imma just throw this in. eventually enuf people are gonna be dumb enuf to repeat this several times... not here to comment on the impact of that RL or ISK wise. Just wanna say, friggin put a 0.1m3 cargo bay on pod strictly for plexes ( this be directed to ccp for the slow readers). IF you're gonna keep them moveable ( dumb ). when ship pops, send them there. IF you're gonna be flying with your potential accounts future ( very dumb ) in whatever ship ( still dumb ) imo oughta at least add the trouble of needing to pod you in addition to exploiting your dumbness. P.S: some people are dumb... P.P.S: Support the EVE Cheerleader drive!
Barkaial Starfinder Minmatar The Kairos Syndicate	Posted - 2010.08.09 03:33:00 - [358] I just considered one thing... What if rich people decided to buy fame? Not the good kind, but still fame...
Frug Omega Wing	Posted - 2010.08.09 04:08:00 - [359] For all the blundering CCP does, gold like this is what makes Eve the best mmo on the market. Awesome. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Whisper/PrismX 4 emperor
Sobach Fourth Circle Total Comfort	Posted - 2010.08.09 04:59:00 - [360] Originally by: Brannor McThife (b) If people wanted to buy gametime with ingame ISK, then create a T1/T2 BPO that requires special components that cost X (hell, they could be NPC seeded components) to manufacture, or why not just have PLEX as a NPC-sellable item that CCP can control the price of? Because CCP just can't wait to jump at the opportunity to let you play their games for free! Oh wait... Having PLEX be a NPC-sold goods will net CCP exactly zero income, they might as well just go ahead and shut the game down if they're going to do that. Originally by: Brannor McThife tl;dr Remove the RL Currency to ISK link. It cheapens items in the game, and thus the game. G-A-M-E. -G Whatever you may think about the whole isk/GTC thing, it's one of CCP's way to discourage buying isk from 3rd party sources, it's never gonna go away.

Ascendic Brotherhood of Suicidal Priests R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.08.09 04:59:00 - [361] Edited by: Ascendic on 09/08/2010 05:03:00 Originally by: Sarf Edited by: Sarf on 08/08/2010 14:47:15 I think you all are missing a big point here. This is like going to buy a gift card at Best Buy. once the cashier takes the money and hands you the gift card there responsibility over the card is done. They don't know or care if you take that gift card and give it to someone else, or store it in your mattress or shred it. They only care when the card comes back and someone says give me a DVD in exchange for the gift card. CCP is in the same boat, they gave you a PLEX when you gave them $. after that if you turn around and sell it, undock and get popped, or transfer it to your brother, or just trash it. They only care when someone presents the plex and says "give me 30d play time". So there is nothing unethical about this. if i buy a gift card and leave it on the bus is it Best Buys fault that I am absent minded? No it is my fault for losing it! Same with CCP so lay off them, they have made it possible for me to hunt for game time... :) Here is the BIGGER point that you are all missing. If you take said gift card and get mugged and it is stolen you can CALL Bestbuy or almost any other retailer who offers gift cards and have a replacement issued and the old card canceled if you have the receipt. This is stated and posted in a number of stores and I know for a fact Bestbuy and Futureshop do it (they are the same company now anyway) as I used to work there years ago and have done it. tl;dr - Whether or not you all believe it is right for PLEXes to be destroyable it is still shady business practice. Taking money for something and not providing services (Despite it being an idiot pilot or not) is generally frowned upon. And anyone who thinks this change was done because CCP 'Didnt like PLEXes being special' is a f*cking idiot. They did it because it was an easy ass change to boost revenue by getting money and providing nothing for every PLEX destroyed.
Ascendic Brotherhood of Suicidal Priests R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.08.09 05:09:00 - [362] Originally by: Aerilis The gift card analogy looks good at first, but you missed a little tiny detail--Company X used to issue gift cards used to be indestructible and unstealable. But then Company X decided to change it so that gift cards were destroyable and stealable, and surrounded their store with muggers. On top of that, they made a deal with the muggers to get half the stolen gift cards back, and let the muggers keep the other half. Nailed it.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.08.09 05:14:00 - [363] Quote: Exchange rates are a two way street regardless of whether or not the powers that be sanction it. Black markets are still markets, and every single in game item has some real world monetary value. The fact that you're asking me what "legal" means is utterly irrelevant. Legal issues only come into play when determining value on black market goods. Going from dollars to isk the exchange rate is currently $35 to about 600mil isk. Going from isk to dollars the current exchange rate is somewhere in the ball park of 25 to 30 dollars per billion. The difference in cost coming from the fact that isk to dollars isn't sanctioned and therefore not "legal" but this does not impact the fact that 1 billion isk is worth approx $30 US. You seem to forget that what matters is whether or not CCP (and the law) places any monetary value on them, and that when the GTC is converted to PLEX (an in game item) in their eyes it loses all monetary value. Black Market, RMT, or your local voodoo preistess can assign whatever fictional value they like to a PLEX, it really doesn't matter what value anyone else places on a PLEX. CCP have always clearly stated that any in game item, no matter what it is, is their property and they place no monetary value on it. Since they are the only people that could possibly be remotely held liable for replacing it, and since they have covered themselves legally and ethically (remember there is a completely risk free method to convert to game time), you simply have no leg to stand on. Perhaps he should try to get reimbursed from his local black market dealer? ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Brannor McThife Caldari Brotherhood of the Ancients	Posted - 2010.08.09 05:18:00 - [364] Originally by: Sobach Whatever you may think about the whole isk/GTC thing, it's one of CCP's way to discourage buying isk from 3rd party sources, it's never gonna go away. So what you're saying is... roughly... CCP Don't want to sell ISK, but rather sell Game Time, and then allow players to trade Game Time inside the game using ISK. Thus in essence, selling ISK, but not selling ISK. That this process [involved/result in] the creation of an item, rather than say, a contracted script or... certificate that existing in written (in your HUD shortcuts) form only, resulted in someone somewhere throwing a hissy fit and demanding that it be made similar (not like) to other items so that it could be moved and destroyed. The resultant (not my words) free $$$ for CCP is a mere side effect. So tell me. Why weren't PLEX created as virtual items inside EvE? i.e. Make them contractual only, having no material form that can be destroyed. Or simply allow players to trade the ISK ingame, and the GTC is moved from one account to the other EXTERNALLY. Thus, no physical form inside the game. You also show that PLEX is again, unique, in that it cannot be allowed to be created ingame because it has an inferred monetary worth because it alone is instantiated outside of the game. So... keep PLEX as it is... but give all other NCO the same properties. Allow players to fly an shuttle out to a deep nullsec station, dock, and proceed to purchase items at their location, e.g. Carrier, POS equipment, etc. No, you don't want that... but anyone can spawn PLEX at their location...just... poof! At the end of the day, PLEX is still special. Period. -G
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.08.09 05:23:00 - [365] Originally by: Ascendic Edited by: Ascendic on 09/08/2010 05:03:00 Originally by: Sarf Edited by: Sarf on 08/08/2010 14:47:15 I think you all are missing a big point here. This is like going to buy a gift card at Best Buy. once the cashier takes the money and hands you the gift card there responsibility over the card is done. They don't know or care if you take that gift card and give it to someone else, or store it in your mattress or shred it. They only care when the card comes back and someone says give me a DVD in exchange for the gift card. CCP is in the same boat, they gave you a PLEX when you gave them $. after that if you turn around and sell it, undock and get popped, or transfer it to your brother, or just trash it. They only care when someone presents the plex and says "give me 30d play time". So there is nothing unethical about this. if i buy a gift card and leave it on the bus is it Best Buys fault that I am absent minded? No it is my fault for losing it! Same with CCP so lay off them, they have made it possible for me to hunt for game time... :) Here is the BIGGER point that you are all missing. If you take said gift card and get mugged and it is stolen you can CALL Bestbuy or almost any other retailer who offers gift cards and have a replacement issued and the old card canceled if you have the receipt. This is stated and posted in a number of stores and I know for a fact Bestbuy and Futureshop do it (they are the same company now anyway) as I used to work there years ago and have done it. tl;dr - Whether or not you all believe it is right for PLEXes to be destroyable it is still shady business practice. Taking money for something and not providing services (Despite it being an idiot pilot or not) is generally frowned upon. And anyone who thinks this change was done because CCP 'Didnt like PLEXes being special' is a f*cking idiot. They did it because it was an easy ass change to boost revenue by getting money and providing nothing for every PLEX destroyed. I worked for Best Buy myself, and still have friends employed there. It doesn't work that way. There are a lot of variables that you aren't bothering to include in your scenario above that would end in Best Buy denying you redemption of your gift card. In fact, it wasn't all that long ago that they stopped having expiration dates on their gift cards. Meaning that if you didn't redeem the gift card quickly enough it lost all value. And they are only 1 of thousands of merchants with similar policies. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Illwill Bill Raven Dynasty Reloaded LLC	Posted - 2010.08.09 05:25:00 - [366] Let us pretend, that a player named Honest Joe sells me a plex. I pay 300 million ISK for this plex, and while that might not seem like much to me, it is a fortune for Honest Joe, who is a relatively new player, who intends to invest the ISK into skillbooks, as well as purchasing a Hulk, so that he can pursue his dream of becoming a mining mogul. Once I have purchased the plex, I decide that I want to move it, for whatever reason. To achieve this, I place the plex into my cargo hold, and undock my ship. After three jumps, I realise that I haven't changed my autopilot settings, and because of this stupidity, I am now in Rancer, in warp to a gate that is camped by a smart-bombing Dominix. Seconds later, I am looking at my pod, back in my home station. My ship, and the items in the cargo hold were destroyed. This includes the plex, which now cannot be redeemed. According to the logic of many of the posters in this thread, it means that CCP will not fulfill it's obligation to their customer. The question is, which customer? Honest Joe paid for the GTC with his own money. He then decided to convert the GTC to plexes, so that he could apply 30 days of game time to his own account, and sell the remaining 30 days on the market. This was successful, and Joe now has the exhumer skillbook, a nice and shiny mission Drake, and a magnificent Hulk, just waiting for him to train the exhumer skill. Joe is very happy about this. He feels that it was worth paying about 7.50Ç to be able to afford his skillbook and his Hulk. He is a satisfied customer, who got exacly what he paid for. I, on the other hand, am a bit upset because of my loss. The problem here is that I did not pay for the plex. No seriously, I didn't. ISK is not money. They are in-game items, that I cannot claim as my own. Now, if we are going to force CCP to give the customer something for their money, whom should they give this something to? Honest Joe has already received what he paid for. He is happy, and doesn't expect anything more. I, on the other hand, haven't paid CCP anything. I exchanged 300 million of the in-game currency to an in-game item, that can be converted into 30 days of game time. Should I get 30 days of game time anyway? Even though I chose to undock instead of applying the game time while in station? Or should we simply deduct the 300 million ISK from Honest Joe's account, if the plex gets destroyed? The answer is: CCP shouldn't do anything. I decided to undock with an in-game item in my cargo hold. This in-game item, can be destroyed, and just as with everything else in this game, the only way to be safe is to stay in station with all chat windows minimized, while refraining from using the market, contract, or trade systems. Since I deliberately took the risk of undocking, even though I am perfectly aware of the risks, should CCP still be held accountable? Do you guys really want to protect stupidity like this?
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.08.09 05:26:00 - [367] Originally by: Aerilis Originally by: Cipher Jones You post literally infuriates me. why is it ok to kill a space ship paid for with real world money, but not an in game item paid for with real world money? The only difference at all is you only have to convert a GTC once to make it a plex, twice to make it a space ship. Because when you blow up a faction fit nightmare paid for with GTC's, somebody somewhere is still clicking "Apply PLEX as gametime" and getting gametime for rl money spent. When you blow up the actual PLEX, this doesn't happen. It's ok to not understand the concept, but don't be so arrogant as to be "infuriated" when it is you yourself that fails to see the important yet subtle distinction. Thats bull****. When I sell a plex I have no control over what happens to it. When you buy a GTC, you don't even need to turn it into plex. There is a 100% chance of redeeming a GTC for gametime, period. This is clearly a signature.
Ascendic Brotherhood of Suicidal Priests R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.08.09 05:30:00 - [368] Edited by: Ascendic on 09/08/2010 05:30:46 Originally by: Ranger 1 Originally by: Ascendic Edited by: Ascendic on 09/08/2010 05:03:00 Originally by: Sarf Edited by: Sarf on 08/08/2010 14:47:15 I think you all are missing a big point here. This is like going to buy a gift card at Best Buy. once the cashier takes the money and hands you the gift card there responsibility over the card is done. They don't know or care if you take that gift card and give it to someone else, or store it in your mattress or shred it. They only care when the card comes back and someone says give me a DVD in exchange for the gift card. CCP is in the same boat, they gave you a PLEX when you gave them $. after that if you turn around and sell it, undock and get popped, or transfer it to your brother, or just trash it. They only care when someone presents the plex and says "give me 30d play time". So there is nothing unethical about this. if i buy a gift card and leave it on the bus is it Best Buys fault that I am absent minded? No it is my fault for losing it! Same with CCP so lay off them, they have made it possible for me to hunt for game time... :) Here is the BIGGER point that you are all missing. If you take said gift card and get mugged and it is stolen you can CALL Bestbuy or almost any other retailer who offers gift cards and have a replacement issued and the old card canceled if you have the receipt. This is stated and posted in a number of stores and I know for a fact Bestbuy and Futureshop do it (they are the same company now anyway) as I used to work there years ago and have done it. tl;dr - Whether or not you all believe it is right for PLEXes to be destroyable it is still shady business practice. Taking money for something and not providing services (Despite it being an idiot pilot or not) is generally frowned upon. And anyone who thinks this change was done because CCP 'Didnt like PLEXes being special' is a f*cking idiot. They did it because it was an easy ass change to boost revenue by getting money and providing nothing for every PLEX destroyed. I worked for Best Buy myself, and still have friends employed there. It doesn't work that way. There are a lot of variables that you aren't bothering to include in your scenario above that would end in Best Buy denying you redemption of your gift card. In fact, it wasn't all that long ago that they stopped having expiration dates on their gift cards. Meaning that if you didn't redeem the gift card quickly enough it lost all value. And they are only 1 of thousands of merchants with similar policies. Yes it does work that way. Bestbuy was one example i didnt work for them I worked for Futureshop and them along with many other retailers WILL give you a new card if you have a recepit. They have the serial number on the old card and can easily check balance and cancel it if it has not been used. So thanks for coming out. Oh did I forget to mention again that I have done it? Clearly you missed that part.
Doctor Ungabungas Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.08.09 05:37:00 - [369] Having consulted a lawyer (ie: I asked my friend with a law degree) I received the following wisdom: "the only contract that exists is between the initial purchaser and CCP and they received their item that was redeemable for game time" "you could say there's a unilateral contract that is fulfilled by possessing the item but even if there was you still need to have the item and if it's gone, it's gone" This is the common law (Australian) interpretation, so your milage may vary!
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.08.09 05:42:00 - [370] Originally by: Ascendic Edited by: Ascendic on 09/08/2010 05:30:46 Originally by: Ranger 1 Originally by: Ascendic Edited by: Ascendic on 09/08/2010 05:03:00 Originally by: Sarf Edited by: Sarf on 08/08/2010 14:47:15 I think you all are missing a big point here. This is like going to buy a gift card at Best Buy. once the cashier takes the money and hands you the gift card there responsibility over the card is done. They don't know or care if you take that gift card and give it to someone else, or store it in your mattress or shred it. They only care when the card comes back and someone says give me a DVD in exchange for the gift card. CCP is in the same boat, they gave you a PLEX when you gave them $. after that if you turn around and sell it, undock and get popped, or transfer it to your brother, or just trash it. They only care when someone presents the plex and says "give me 30d play time". So there is nothing unethical about this. if i buy a gift card and leave it on the bus is it Best Buys fault that I am absent minded? No it is my fault for losing it! Same with CCP so lay off them, they have made it possible for me to hunt for game time... :) Here is the BIGGER point that you are all missing. If you take said gift card and get mugged and it is stolen you can CALL Bestbuy or almost any other retailer who offers gift cards and have a replacement issued and the old card canceled if you have the receipt. This is stated and posted in a number of stores and I know for a fact Bestbuy and Futureshop do it (they are the same company now anyway) as I used to work there years ago and have done it. tl;dr - Whether or not you all believe it is right for PLEXes to be destroyable it is still shady business practice. Taking money for something and not providing services (Despite it being an idiot pilot or not) is generally frowned upon. And anyone who thinks this change was done because CCP 'Didnt like PLEXes being special' is a f*cking idiot. They did it because it was an easy ass change to boost revenue by getting money and providing nothing for every PLEX destroyed. I worked for Best Buy myself, and still have friends employed there. It doesn't work that way. There are a lot of variables that you aren't bothering to include in your scenario above that would end in Best Buy denying you redemption of your gift card. In fact, it wasn't all that long ago that they stopped having expiration dates on their gift cards. Meaning that if you didn't redeem the gift card quickly enough it lost all value. And they are only 1 of thousands of merchants with similar policies. Yes it does work that way. Bestbuy was one example i didnt work for them I worked for Futureshop and them along with many other retailers WILL give you a new card if you have a recepit. They have the serial number on the old card and can easily check balance and cancel it if it has not been used. So thanks for coming out. Oh did I forget to mention again that I have done it? Clearly you missed that part. Ahh, now you start qualifying things with one of the possible scenarios where they would not redeem said gift card (which you omitted the first time around). Namely "if the card has not been used". Now this is far from the only situation that can and does arise, but lets look at that shall we? What if those PLEX had dropped, been picked up and redeemed or sold to another party? Not so simple now is it? Just the same as if your mugger immediately redeemed that gift card he took from you. It's done, over, and the store is not liable in any way. Shall I point out the vast number of retailers that don't use gift cards coded in this fashion? How many do you think require you to present the actual gift card issued to redeem it in the US alone? Do you believe that all of those merchants are guilty of shady business practices, or are defrauding their customers? You are out of your depth here I'm afraid. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.

Barkaial Starfinder Minmatar The Kairos Syndicate	Posted - 2010.08.09 05:45:00 - [371] Originally by: Illwill Bill Let us pretend, that a player named Honest Joe sells me a plex. I pay 300 million ISK for this plex, and while that might not seem like much to me, it is a fortune for Honest Joe, who is a relatively new player, who intends to invest the ISK into skillbooks, as well as purchasing a Hulk, so that he can pursue his dream of becoming a mining mogul. Once I have purchased the plex, I decide that I want to move it, for whatever reason. To achieve this, I place the plex into my cargo hold, and undock my ship. After three jumps, I realise that I haven't changed my autopilot settings, and because of this stupidity, I am now in Rancer, in warp to a gate that is camped by a smart-bombing Dominix. Seconds later, I am looking at my pod, back in my home station. My ship, and the items in the cargo hold were destroyed. This includes the plex, which now cannot be redeemed. According to the logic of many of the posters in this thread, it means that CCP will not fulfill it's obligation to their customer. The question is, which customer? Honest Joe paid for the GTC with his own money. He then decided to convert the GTC to plexes, so that he could apply 30 days of game time to his own account, and sell the remaining 30 days on the market. This was successful, and Joe now has the exhumer skillbook, a nice and shiny mission Drake, and a magnificent Hulk, just waiting for him to train the exhumer skill. Joe is very happy about this. He feels that it was worth paying about 7.50Ç to be able to afford his skillbook and his Hulk. He is a satisfied customer, who got exacly what he paid for. I, on the other hand, am a bit upset because of my loss. The problem here is that I did not pay for the plex. No seriously, I didn't. ISK is not money. They are in-game items, that I cannot claim as my own. Now, if we are going to force CCP to give the customer something for their money, whom should they give this something to? Honest Joe has already received what he paid for. He is happy, and doesn't expect anything more. I, on the other hand, haven't paid CCP anything. I exchanged 300 million of the in-game currency to an in-game item, that can be converted into 30 days of game time. Should I get 30 days of game time anyway? Even though I chose to undock instead of applying the game time while in station? Or should we simply deduct the 300 million ISK from Honest Joe's account, if the plex gets destroyed? The answer is: CCP shouldn't do anything. I decided to undock with an in-game item in my cargo hold. This in-game item, can be destroyed, and just as with everything else in this game, the only way to be safe is to stay in station with all chat windows minimized, while refraining from using the market, contract, or trade systems. Since I deliberately took the risk of undocking, even though I am perfectly aware of the risks, should CCP still be held accountable? Do you guys really want to protect stupidity like this? Thanks! You just renewed the hope I still have on the EVE forums.
Xereyn	Posted - 2010.08.09 05:52:00 - [372] Originally by: Brannor McThife Or simply allow players to trade the ISK ingame, and the GTC is moved from one account to the other EXTERNALLY. Thus, no physical form inside the game. They do allow this. There's even a special section on the forums to help people do this. And, because GTCs ARE in fact items purchased with real world money, etc, scamming and so on is strictly policed with GTCs. However, people can make more isk if they convert them to PLEX and trade them as such. But PLEX can be scammed, etc. Risk, reward. And now, you can move PLEX, again, potentially increasing your profits in the process - but the reward of rising profit comes with the risk of destruction. Welcome to EVE.
Shadowy Assistant Darkrime Industries	Posted - 2010.08.09 06:10:00 - [373] How is losing PLEX's any different to losing fancy loot purchased via GTCs?
Ohh Yeah The Compass Reloaded HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.08.09 06:16:00 - [374] I'd imagine the stories would be better if GTCs were purchasable at stores. "OK THIS IS TOTAL **** I BOUGHT THIS GTC FROM 7/11 SO CCP OWES ME 60 DAYS TIME RIGHT? WELL I WAS DRIVING HOME AND GOT ANGRY AND USED THE CARD TO SLIT MY GIRLFRIEND'S THROAT IN THE CAR NOW THE POLICE R USING IT FOR EVIDENCE AND I CANT HAVE IT BACK????? THIS IS HIGHWAY ROBBERY CCP OWE ME GAME TIME"
Scyyy	Posted - 2010.08.09 06:17:00 - [375] Reading this topic has reaffirmed that this is quite possibly the whiniest mmo forum I have ever visited. No wonder ccp doesn't pay any attention to this forum, people are whining about something every single day and almost every time its about things that don't even matter and they are wrong about in the first place.
Cap II GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.08.09 06:17:00 - [376] Originally by: Ranger 1 Quote: Exchange rates are a two way street regardless of whether or not the powers that be sanction it. Black markets are still markets, and every single in game item has some real world monetary value. The fact that you're asking me what "legal" means is utterly irrelevant. Legal issues only come into play when determining value on black market goods. Going from dollars to isk the exchange rate is currently $35 to about 600mil isk. Going from isk to dollars the current exchange rate is somewhere in the ball park of 25 to 30 dollars per billion. The difference in cost coming from the fact that isk to dollars isn't sanctioned and therefore not "legal" but this does not impact the fact that 1 billion isk is worth approx $30 US. You seem to forget that what matters is whether or not CCP (and the law) places any monetary value on them, and that when the GTC is converted to PLEX (an in game item) in their eyes it loses all monetary value. Black Market, RMT, or your local voodoo preistess can assign whatever fictional value they like to a PLEX, it really doesn't matter what value anyone else places on a PLEX. CCP have always clearly stated that any in game item, no matter what it is, is their property and they place no monetary value on it. Since they are the only people that could possibly be remotely held liable for replacing it, and since they have covered themselves legally and ethically (remember there is a completely risk free method to convert to game time), you simply have no leg to stand on. Perhaps he should try to get reimbursed from his local black market dealer? You really must be that stupid, as you keep repeating the same thing over. Value is what the buyer or seller determines it to be. CCP can value it at nothing all they want but either the buyer or seller determines the cost, real or isk, at the transaction. CCP has no say in this what-so-ever. The point that technically CCP owns everything is irrelevant. You and I both know that isk gets purchased from 3rd parties all the time and there is nothing CCP or any other MMO maker for that matter can do about this fact. If your statement were true then there would be nobody spamming channels with isk prices because hey it has no value right? I'll go ahead and repeat it since you seem to have trouble reading but value is determined by those who conduct the transaction. CCP and yourself can jump up and down and throw a tantrum but if someones purchases isk for any dollar amount a real world value has been placed on it. Again just to make sure you're reading this, since CCP isn't involved in isk buying/selling they have no say at all as to what the value is. None. What-so-ever. You should really look into economics 101 to learn how this works. 1 billion isk is worth exactly what the buyer will pay and the seller will sell for. Currently that price is between 25 and 30 dollars. So now to tl;dr this CCP's valuation of in game items is a non factor. I don't know what you mean when you say a "fictional" value but anyone with basic economics or logic skill will tell you this. That "fictional" value as you call it is in fact the actual, real world dollar value of isk. If someone is willing to pay it then that is the value. Everything is purchased in game for isk, isk has a real world value (an exchange rate) and thus all in game items have a real world value. I don't expect you to understand this as you seem quite content to drink the kool-aid as it were. If you take anything from this, it should be pounded into your neanderthal skull that what CCP says on this subject is not a factor at all. [yellow]Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes[
Ascendic Brotherhood of Suicidal Priests R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.08.09 06:28:00 - [377] Edited by: Ascendic on 09/08/2010 06:31:21 Originally by: Ranger 1 Shall I point out the vast number of retailers that don't use gift cards coded in this fashion? How many do you think require you to present the actual gift card issued to redeem it in the US alone? Do you believe that all of those merchants are guilty of shady business practices, or are defrauding their customers? Please point them out. I call BS. Every retailer that is not a mom and pop store or completely stupid will code the card. Otherwise it is extremely easy to create fraudulent ones. edit: Here is the other point everyone is missing. The mugger stealing the card can still go in and redeem it for said goods. There is no "drop rate" there is no chance the card will magiclaly disappear/vanish from reality and the retailer will no longer have to provide the service which was paid for. There is no problem with them dropping but to have them be destroyed on the roll of a dice is plain stupid.
Lutz Major Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo	Posted - 2010.08.09 07:26:00 - [378] Originally by: Ascendic Edited by: Ascendic on 09/08/2010 06:31:21 Originally by: Ranger 1 Shall I point out the vast number of retailers that don't use gift cards coded in this fashion? How many do you think require you to present the actual gift card issued to redeem it in the US alone? Do you believe that all of those merchants are guilty of shady business practices, or are defrauding their customers? Please point them out. I call BS. Every retailer that is not a mom and pop store or completely stupid will code the card. Otherwise it is extremely easy to create fraudulent ones. edit: Here is the other point everyone is missing. The mugger stealing the card can still go in and redeem it for said goods. There is no "drop rate" there is no chance the card will magiclaly disappear/vanish from reality and the retailer will no longer have to provide the service which was paid for. There is no problem with them dropping but to have them be destroyed on the roll of a dice is plain stupid. I can point you to something: In Austria it was common to have anonymous saving accounts! Yes - you read right. With all implications of being a virtual nobody to your institute. The bearer who had the book could deposit or withdraw ANY amount without showing any sort of ID. Right now - after the law changed years ago, there are millions and millions of Euros in Austrias bank accounts, which will NEVER be withdrawn again. I'm not only talking about black money. Also savings from grandmas and grandpas, whos books got lost in a fire or lost when they died, can and will never be claimed again! So please don't tell me that this does not happen! Open your eyes! I could understand your 'half-hearted facts' and 'legal views of the world' if you were 15 but a grown man should know what is legal and/or illegal.
Void Kraken	Posted - 2010.08.09 07:58:00 - [379] The gift card analogy works for a GTC, not for a PLEX. A GTC is owned by the buyer, but the PLEX, being a in-game item, is owned by CCP. As soon as you exchange your GTC for two PLEXes you give up ownership to CCP and all obligations CCP may have towards you that you had with a GTC. No one handed over CCP 1200$ when they destroyed the PLEXes, the people that transformed their GTCs already did when they got their PLEXes. It's more akin to a micro-transaction, where you pay in real money for a special in-game item, just more obfuscated.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2010.08.09 08:09:00 - [380] FFS, the stupidity in this thread is just painful to read. CCP sells, whether directly or through various third-party sellers, an item called a GTC. This item is sold by CCP for real money, and represents a contract between you and CCP. This contract can be used for three things: 1) It can be transferred to another player, usually for ISK. Scamming with GTCs is against the rules of the game, and if the transfer is done through the secure method provided by CCP, any scams/refusals to give the GTC/etc will be reversed by CCP and the offender will be punished. And note that CCP's inability to do anything about scams elsewhere is just that: inability. Without the verification of the secure transfer method, CCP does not have the evidence required to get involved. 2) It can be used to apply 60 days of game time to your account. 3) It can be converted into two PLEXes. A PLEX is an in-game item, and subject to all the normal rules for in-game items. It can be used to apply 30 days of time to your account. It can be sold to other players. It can be bought in one region, hauled to another region, and sold for a profit. It can be stockpiled in hopes that prices will rise. It can be used in scams. It can be placed in a well-tanked ship to bait suicide gankers into wasting their ships. It can be used for countless other things, just like any other in-game item. Now, let's look at this argument about CCP honoring the contract they make by selling you a GTC. For each of the three ways: 1) You (securely) trade the contract to another player. CCP honors the contract in that the player you transfer it to gets the same privileges that you have, including both redemption methods. 2) You apply 60 days of time to your account. CCP honors the contract and gives you the 60 days (and if a bug of some kind prevents this from working properly, they honor the contract by fixing the problem and giving you the 60 days). 3) You create two PLEXes. CCP honors the contract and gives you the two in-game items (and if a bug of some kind prevents this from working properly, they honor the contract by fixing the problem and giving you the two in-game items). In all cases CCP has honored the contract the moment you redeem the item. What you do with the ISK from a GTC sale, 60 days of game time, or in-game PLEX items is entirely your business, and no decision that you make can in any way be considered CCP failing to honor their part of the contract. They have already done so and have no remaining obligations to you once the redemption process is completed. Demanding reimbursement for destroyed PLEXes is just as stupid as demanding reimbursement for the 60 days of game time because you decided not to play EVE for 59 of those 60 days. As for the argument that (illegal) ISK sales make PLEXes have real-money value, that's pure bull**. By that reasoning, every single in-game item** has real-money value, and CCP is legally responsible for reimbursing any losses you happen to suffer. Is anyone really stupid enough to argue that I can demand reimbursement from CCP and/or sue you (after all, you have destroyed my property) if you destroy my titan? PLEXes are no different, deal with it. -----------

Cap II GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.08.09 08:15:00 - [381] Edited by: Cap II on 09/08/2010 08:16:10 Originally by: Merin Ryskin As for the argument that (illegal) ISK sales make PLEXes have real-money value, that's pure bull**. By that reasoning, every single in-game item** has real-money value, and CCP is legally responsible for reimbursing any losses you happen to suffer. Is anyone really stupid enough to argue that I can demand reimbursement from CCP and/or sue you (after all, you have destroyed my property) if you destroy my titan? PLEXes are no different, deal with it. You were dead on right up until you talked about CCP having to reimburse everyone due to this fact, i'm not sure where that came from so i'll assume you just pulled it out of your ass. But yes, I did in fact say several posts above that all in game items have real world value. So i'll pose the same questions to you. Do you agree that isk buying/selling takes place? Are there buyers? Are there sellers? If ISK has no real world value then how do websites selling isk stay in business? If you answer yes to the first 3 questions then there is no logical basis to argue that ISK doesn't have real world value. If you answer no to any of the first 3, then you're gonna have a very hard time answering the fourth question. Good luck. [yellow]Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes[
Lutz Major Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo	Posted - 2010.08.09 08:25:00 - [382] Originally by: Cap II If ISK has no real world value then how do websites selling isk stay in business? Good question, but I have no answer other than: people are stupid and cannot do basic math: I just googled some ISK seller online: the average price for 600M is about USD 37.00. If you buy a GTC for USD 35.99 you can sell both plexes to buy orders for 620M in Amarr (according to eve-central). So you loose one dollar and 20M ISK over a ISK seller vs. GTC
Emperor Cheney Celebrity Sex Tape	Posted - 2010.08.09 08:32:00 - [383] Originally by: Ascendic Edited by: Ascendic on 09/08/2010 06:31:21 Originally by: Ranger 1 Shall I point out the vast number of retailers that don't use gift cards coded in this fashion? How many do you think require you to present the actual gift card issued to redeem it in the US alone? Do you believe that all of those merchants are guilty of shady business practices, or are defrauding their customers? Please point them out. I call BS. Every retailer that is not a mom and pop store or completely stupid will code the card. Otherwise it is extremely easy to create fraudulent ones. edit: Here is the other point everyone is missing. The mugger stealing the card can still go in and redeem it for said goods. There is no "drop rate" there is no chance the card will magiclaly disappear/vanish from reality and the retailer will no longer have to provide the service which was paid for. There is no problem with them dropping but to have them be destroyed on the roll of a dice is plain stupid. So many people here are talking completely out of their ass. This is thirteen pages full of dumb. First, you are factually and ridiculously wrong. I work in fraud and compliance for a major worldwide retailer that sells a lot of gift cards. It is routine when a police report is filed or we on our own investigations detect fraud or theft to cancel the gift cards. Second, and more generally: all in game goods are owned by CCP and only exist in game. Period. That's it. That is the fundamental idea that lets MMO's exist in this world of laws we all live in. Read the EULA. Read any MMO EULA. And if that's too much work, ask yourself this: do you think that maybe, just maybe, CCP phoned a lawyer once or twice in their entire existence?
Cap II GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.08.09 08:34:00 - [384] Edited by: Cap II on 09/08/2010 08:35:50 Originally by: Lutz Major Originally by: Cap II If ISK has no real world value then how do websites selling isk stay in business? Good question, but I have no answer other than: people are stupid and cannot do basic math: I just googled some ISK seller online: the average price for 600M is about USD 37.00. If you buy a GTC for USD 35.99 you can sell both plexes to buy orders for 620M in Amarr (according to eve-central). So you loose one dollar and 20M ISK over a ISK seller vs. GTC I'm not sure where you're looking but the first 3 sites I checked just now priced 500 to 600 million at about $25 give or take. Actually every site on the first page of google results is in the area of $22 to $26 for 500mil. [yellow]Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes[
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2010.08.09 08:35:00 - [385] Originally by: Cap II If ISK has no real world value then why are people willing to buy or sell it? Because people are ****ing stupid enough to give real money to people selling an item (ISK) that they don't own. CCP owns all PLEXes, ISK, and all other in-game items. The ISK seller owns nothing, and you are buying nothing. The ISK seller might perform some actions in EVE, but that is only because by doing those actions they convince more people to give them cash in exchange for nothing. Like it or not, ISK has ZERO real-money value because there is no way to transfer ownership of it. In the entire history of EVE, there has not been even a single sale of ISK or any other in-game item, so even by your argument of "it's worth what people pay", there is no grounds for saying that any in-game item has real-money value. -----------
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.08.09 08:35:00 - [386] Originally by: Illwill Bill According to the logic of many of the posters in this thread, it means that CCP will not fulfill it's obligation to their customer. The question is, which customer? Honest Joe paid for the GTC with his own money. He then decided to convert the GTC to plexes, so that he could apply 30 days of game time to his own account, and sell the remaining 30 days on the market. This was successful, and Joe now has the exhumer skillbook, a nice and shiny mission Drake, and a magnificent Hulk, just waiting for him to train the exhumer skill. Joe is very happy about this. He feels that it was worth paying about 7.50Ç to be able to afford his skillbook and his Hulk. He is a satisfied customer, who got exacly what he paid for. I, on the other hand, am a bit upset because of my loss. The problem here is that I did not pay for the plex. No seriously, I didn't. ISK is not money. They are in-game items, that I cannot claim as my own. Now, if we are going to force CCP to give the customer something for their money, whom should they give this something to? Honest Joe has already received what he paid for. He is happy, and doesn't expect anything more. I, on the other hand, haven't paid CCP anything. I exchanged 300 million of the in-game currency to an in-game item, that can be converted into 30 days of game time. Should I get 30 days of game time anyway? Even though I chose to undock instead of applying the game time while in station? Or should we simply deduct the 300 million ISK from Honest Joe's account, if the plex gets destroyed? The answer is: CCP shouldn't do anything. I decided to undock with an in-game item in my cargo hold. This in-game item, can be destroyed, and just as with everything else in this game, the only way to be safe is to stay in station with all chat windows minimized, while refraining from using the market, contract, or trade systems. Since I deliberately took the risk of undocking, even though I am perfectly aware of the risks, should CCP still be held accountable? Do you guys really want to protect stupidity like this? Quoted for best example yet that lines out EXACTLY what is wrong with some peoples reasoning. ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
Void Kraken	Posted - 2010.08.09 08:39:00 - [387] Originally by: Cap II If ISK has no real world value then how do websites selling isk stay in business? If ISK has no real world value then why are people willing to buy or sell it? They are not selling the ISK, as they don't own it, they may not sell it. What they do offer is the service of acquiring the ISK, they sell their time, no items.
Cap II GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.08.09 08:40:00 - [388] Edited by: Cap II on 09/08/2010 08:46:27 Edited by: Cap II on 09/08/2010 08:43:14 Originally by: Merin Ryskin Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 09/08/2010 08:36:18 Originally by: Cap II If ISK has no real world value then why are people willing to buy or sell it? Because people are ***ing stupid enough to give real money to people selling an item (ISK) that they don't own. CCP owns all PLEXes, ISK, and all other in-game items. The ISK seller owns nothing, and you are buying nothing. The ISK seller might perform some actions in EVE, but that is only because by doing those actions they convince more people to give them cash in exchange for nothing. Like it or not, ISK has ZERO real-money value because there is no way to transfer ownership of it. In the entire history of EVE, there has not been even a single sale of ISK or any other in-game item, so even by your argument of "it's worth what people pay", there is no grounds for saying that any in-game item has real-money value. So the answer to your question "Do you agree that isk buying/selling takes place?"* is no: ISK has never been bought or sold. People buy, sell, and trade in game items and characters every day. A simple search of eBay will show you this. So since you answered no, then please, enlighten us as to how the multitude of isk selling websites stay in business? ISK sales may not be tangible in the traditional sense, but people are paying real money to have their eve wallet go up X amount. You argument boils down to "I am ignorant of reality in this situation, yet i'll continue to speak." So i'll just go ahead and let you talk out your ass as you're doing a damn good job of helping me make you look stupid. Oh and if you're really correct, go ahead and answer all the questions I posed to you, i'm sure your infinate wisdom will allow you to do this without issue. Since I don't trust you to find eBay without hurting yourself i'll just go ahead and link it. http://cgi.ebay.com/Picture-Free-21-mil-SP-Eve-Online-PVP-Character-/280546270044?pt=Art_Photo_Images [yellow]Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes[
Cap II GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.08.09 08:42:00 - [389] Edited by: Cap II on 09/08/2010 08:44:03 Originally by: Void Kraken Originally by: Cap II If ISK has no real world value then how do websites selling isk stay in business? If ISK has no real world value then why are people willing to buy or sell it? They are not selling the ISK, as they don't own it, they may not sell it. What they do offer is the service of acquiring the ISK, they sell their time, no items. As i've already stated the fact that neither you nor I "own" our eve assets does not preclude the possibility of sales. If you truly believe that you cannot "sell" something that you don't own then I have a bridge i'd like to sell you. ISK is a direct result of that time and thus an extra, unnecessary step to the conclusion that Dollars = ISK and vice versa. [yellow]Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes[
Halcyon Ingenium Caldari Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse	Posted - 2010.08.09 08:42:00 - [390] Originally by: Scyyy Reading this topic has reaffirmed that this is quite possibly the whiniest mmo forum I have ever visited. No wonder ccp doesn't pay any attention to this forum, people are whining about something every single day and almost every time its about things that don't even matter and they are wrong about in the first place. Oh I think they find the drama and the fail just as morbidly entertaining as some of the rest of us.

Musical Fist Gallente NAP Coalition	Posted - 2010.08.09 08:48:00 - [391] A fool and his plex are soon departed -- Recruiting now open!!
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2010.08.09 08:48:00 - [392] Originally by: Cap II People buy, sell, and trade in game items and characters every day. A simple search of eBay will show you this. So since you answered no, then please, enlighten us as to how the multitude of isk selling websites stay in business? ISK sales may not be tangible in the traditional sense, but people are paying real money to have their eve wallet go up X amount. You argument boils down to "I am ignorant of reality in this situation, yet i'll continue to speak." So i'll just go ahead and let you talk out your ass as you're doing a damn good job of helping me make you look stupid. No, they do not sell items/characters/etc because they do not own those items/characters/etc. The idiots who pay money to these people are buying, at most, a promise to perform certain in-game actions (a promise which can not be enforced). At no point does any character/item/etc change ownership, CCP still owns them. Consider an analogy: I have a pile of dirt I want moved. I offer you $20 to move the pile of dirt to the other side of my yard. You accept the deal, move the pile, and I give you the $20. At no point in this transaction has ownership of the dirt changed, so you have no grounds for claiming that the pile of dirt has a value of $20. The same is true of EVE: ownership of the items being moved around is not changing, therefore there has never been a character or item sale. -----------
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2010.08.09 08:53:00 - [393] Originally by: Cap II Oh and if you're really correct, go ahead and answer all the questions I posed to you, i'm sure your infinate wisdom will allow you to do this without issue. Easy: Quote: Do you agree that isk buying/selling takes place? No. There has not been even a single sale of ISK in the entire history of EVE. From the day the servers were first started up, every single ISK has been owned by CCP and that ownership has never changed. Quote: Are there buyers? No. See above. Quote: Are there sellers? No. See above. Quote: If ISK has no real world value then how do websites "selling" isk stay in business? By performing in-game actions involving items owned by CCP. Enough people feel that the unenforceable promise to perform those actions in exchange for money is worth giving real money to the "seller", however, no object is sold. Quote: If ISK has no real world value then why are people willing to buy or sell it? ISK has never been sold, therefore the question is flawed. -----------
Cap II GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.08.09 08:53:00 - [394] Edited by: Cap II on 09/08/2010 08:56:10 Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Cap II People buy, sell, and trade in game items and characters every day. A simple search of eBay will show you this. So since you answered no, then please, enlighten us as to how the multitude of isk selling websites stay in business? ISK sales may not be tangible in the traditional sense, but people are paying real money to have their eve wallet go up X amount. You argument boils down to "I am ignorant of reality in this situation, yet i'll continue to speak." So i'll just go ahead and let you talk out your ass as you're doing a damn good job of helping me make you look stupid. No, they do not sell items/characters/etc because they do not own those items/characters/etc. The idiots who pay money to these people are buying, at most, a promise to perform certain in-game actions (a promise which can not be enforced). At no point does any character/item/etc change ownership, CCP still owns them. Consider an analogy: I have a pile of dirt I want moved. I offer you $20 to move the pile of dirt to the other side of my yard. You accept the deal, move the pile, and I give you the $20. At no point in this transaction has ownership of the dirt changed, so you have no grounds for claiming that the pile of dirt has a value of $20. The same is true of EVE: ownership of the items being moved around is not changing, therefore there has never been a character or item sale. Your analogy is totally irrelevant as you plainly stated that the $20 is for the service of moving the dirt, not taking custody over it. Now consider this analogy: I come into possession of a 2010 Chevy Camero. I offer to sell it to you at a cost of $20,000 US and you accept. You give me the money and I give you the keys. It later becomes clear that I stole the car. What is the value of the car? You should probably read this as well http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/Hoaxipedia/Brooklyn_Bridge_Scams/ The main difference here is that in eve it is possible to take custody over property in game between 2 3rd parties, regardless of the fact that technically it is "owned" by CCP. [yellow]Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes[
Cap II GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.08.09 08:55:00 - [395] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Cap II Oh and if you're really correct, go ahead and answer all the questions I posed to you, i'm sure your infinate wisdom will allow you to do this without issue. Easy: Quote: Do you agree that isk buying/selling takes place? No. There has not been even a single sale of ISK in the entire history of EVE. From the day the servers were first started up, every single ISK has been owned by CCP and that ownership has never changed. Quote: Are there buyers? No. See above. Quote: Are there sellers? No. See above. Quote: If ISK has no real world value then how do websites "selling" isk stay in business? By performing in-game actions involving items owned by CCP. Enough people feel that the unenforceable promise to perform those actions in exchange for money is worth giving real money to the "seller", however, no object is sold. Quote: If ISK has no real world value then why are people willing to buy or sell it? ISK has never been sold, therefore the question is flawed. Thanks for demonstrating that you are totally ******ed. I have only one question. Does it hurt? Because if it doesn't it should. You've changed your argument from "I am ignorant of reality" to "LALALALALA FINGERS IN MY EARS I CANT SEE YOU SO YOU DONT EXIST LALALALA" [yellow]Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes[
Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2010.08.09 09:04:00 - [396] This loss was less than a third of a Titan. Titans get destroyed now and then. Or, to put it another way, you can sell the titan and buy 18 years of game time instead of the 6 years of game time that was lost by the nincompoop who could't be bothered with taking 10 trips to minimize his losses even if he really truly had some sort of reason to move them because he had even stupider peopel he was selling them to that couldn't believe that they work from far a way. I buy plexes with isk and resell them higher the same way i might by a few dozen arbalest heavies or standard implants... so to me the plex isn't any different thatn another item. True, I can use if for game time, but in reality I have three accounts and the second and third account are really just game enhancements.. the same way a higher skill might enhance my game play or buying a new ship might enahnce my game play. I'm still one human being playing one game no matter how many accounts I have. PLexs are just a way to expand my game play as a result of my game play choices that allow me to earn the right to more characters with my isk. CCP is under no obligation to have players sell the plexes to other players if the buyer is is looking to use real money to buy isk Its really a very kind thing of them to let peopel buy free time with isk.. they could just sell isk directly to players for $ and not allow peopel like me to buy free game time. That is the other side of the coin. CCP gives away free game time to people like me all the time...if a few plexes get blown up it hardly will scratch the amount of game time they give out for free unnecessarily.
CyberGh0st Minmatar Ara Veritas	Posted - 2010.08.09 09:10:00 - [397] Originally by: Barkaial Starfinder The only thing wrong here is that drops are calculated on whole stacks. Maybe they should calculate drops of portions or % of stacks, and some PLEXes might drop Who ever get plexes and travel with them is accepting the risk for selling somewhere else for profit. I agree, but since CCP wants to treat PLEXes as any other item, it won't happen :p So it is all or nothing. All I can advice is that next time when someone flies out with a bunch of PLEXes, please unstack them first :p http://www.mmodata.net Favorite MMO's : DAoC Pre-TOA-NF / SWG Pre-CU-NGE
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.08.09 09:20:00 - [398] Originally by: Cap II Thanks for demonstrating that you are totally ******ed. I have only one question. Does it hurt? Because if it doesn't it should. You've changed your argument from "I am ignorant of reality" to "LALALALALA FINGERS IN MY EARS I CANT SEE YOU SO YOU DONT EXIST LALALALA" baaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaa baaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaa Seriously tho: He is right in stating that you do not own ANY in game items AT ALL. You dont even own 'your' account. You are allowed to use it. The payed for, and protected by law, agreement on providing gametime is attached to the GTC. It is in no way attached to the PLEX. PLEX derives it's value from the option to turn it into gametime. This is in order to be able to negate the need for RMT. The person buying the GTC, converting it to PLEX' and selling them got their service. The person buying the GTC, converting it to PLEX' and proceeding to undock to trade them has a hole in is head where most people have brains because there is no need to do that. The person buying the PLEX', applying them to their account, got their service. The person buying the PLEX', and trying to transport them for moar pr0f!t$, gambles with them and should be free to do so. In all casses, no ownership changed. The right/ability to use something did. I can not sell you the pavement outside my door, for I do not own it. I can scam you into thinking I do own it, and try to sell you a worthless deed, but that doesnt make it hold up in court now does it ? ISK has no real world value. Period. What gives it a percieved value is the fact that some people choose to rather shell out some $$$ then invest a few hours. Opportunity cost if you like. Opportunity cost is not something that is fixed tho. It depends on the next best alternative. So while for some person the opportunity cost of a PLEX is 3 hours of gametime, the next person has 3 weeks of gametime attached to it, and yet another has his job/food on the table attached to it, and yet another $15,-. You can not state that ISK has real world value, beyond opportunity cost, unless I dont understand something correct, in which case I like to be corrected. ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
Cap II GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.08.09 09:26:00 - [399] I've never at any point suggested that any of us own anything related to this game infact i've stated the opposite outright. I've also stated that this lack of ownership does not mean that we cannot buy or sell these goods. And if you could go ahead and tell me what the difference between "perceived" value and real value is i'm all ears. I can tell you that if I were to sell someone isk the bills in my hand would be quite real. At this point one of you geniuses is going to say that I can't sell something I don't own, or i'm not actually selling the isk, but if the transaction takes place then the cash or check that the seller receives is quite real. But hey, its only "perceived" money right? [yellow]Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes[
Miss Connolly Public Relations Corp	Posted - 2010.08.09 09:50:00 - [400] Edited by: Miss Connolly on 09/08/2010 09:50:38 Originally by: Sarina Berghil It makes sense to have special rules for items that have real life monetary value, or represents real life services. As much as I hate imbeciles giving CCP free money (especially now when they don't deserve it) I disagree with the above quote. ALL items in EVE have a real life monetary value since you can legally buy ISK for RL money. A titan goes for about USD 3500-4000. A mom goes for about USD 1000-1500. And so on and so forth. So basically ever time an item gets destroyed you are destroying something with a real life monetary value - it's just a little bit less direct then in the case of PLEX. Edit: spelling ___________________ "It was mentioned by CCP that the data does not seem to support that polished quality sells better than new features." These are the people you are giving your money to.

Cap II GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.08.09 09:52:00 - [401] Originally by: Miss Connolly Originally by: Sarina Berghil It makes sense to have special rules for items that have real life monetary value, or represents real life services. As much as I hate imbeciles giving CCP free money (especially now when they don't deserve it) I disagree with the above quote. ALL items in EVE have a real life monetary value since you can legally buy ISK for RL money. A titan goes for about USD 3500-4000. A mom goes for about USD 1000-1500. And so on and so forth. So basically ever time an item gets destroyed you are destroying something with a real life monetary value - it's just a little bit less direct then in the base of PLEX. Congrats on being one of the only rational and logical people to post in this thread. It may be a club of just you and me right now but I think we can get more members. We should make our slogan "You can lead a fool to logic but you can't make him think" [yellow]Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes[
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.09 10:34:00 - [402] Originally by: Ascendic Originally by: Aerilis The gift card analogy looks good at first, but you missed a little tiny detail--Company X used to issue gift cards used to be indestructible and unstealable. But then Company X decided to change it so that gift cards were destroyable and stealable, and surrounded their store with muggers. On top of that, they made a deal with the muggers to get half the stolen gift cards back, and let the muggers keep the other half. Nailed it. Not really, no. What he said was incorrect: as mentioned roughly a bazillion times now, the gift cards Company X used to issue were destructible all along. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Aerilis Gallente Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2010.08.09 10:38:00 - [403] Edited by: Aerilis on 09/08/2010 10:38:45 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Ascendic Originally by: Aerilis The gift card analogy looks good at first, but you missed a little tiny detail--Company X used to issue gift cards used to be indestructible and unstealable. But then Company X decided to change it so that gift cards were destroyable and stealable, and surrounded their store with muggers. On top of that, they made a deal with the muggers to get half the stolen gift cards back, and let the muggers keep the other half. Nailed it. Not really, no. What he said was incorrect: as mentioned roughly a bazillion times now, the gift cards Company X used to issue were destructible all along. Ok fine. The previous "indestructible" gift cards could only be destroyed by right clicking on a special incinerator in the back of the store, and then clicking OK on a confirmation window. You can patch little holes like this forever, as all analogies are somewhat flawed, but I think I have all the important points covered. edit-****ed up formatting
Washell Olivaw	Posted - 2010.08.09 10:43:00 - [404] Anyone suggested yet that destroyed PLEX like these could be added to a pool which subsequently can be used to make them drop from rare NPC's? No game time ever destroyed, all of it paid for, in-game 'source' of PLEX, makes them a tiny bit more normal. Originally by: Signature Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
QT McWhiskers	Posted - 2010.08.09 10:46:00 - [405] Originally by: Vlayde Riser This is a joke right? Over 1000$ inside a t1 frigate piloted by an alliance leader, and he decides to undock it in Jita? How does someone with such poor common-sense manage to even lead an alliance? If it were me, I would've ordered every alliance member to hop in a logistics and to stick on my ass until all of those plexes were safe. http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=3832139 Granted its not plexes, but its still very lulworthy. Originally by: CCP Incognito Originally by: Steve Celeste Would have been a nice drop, too bad that CCP set the drop chance for that item to ABSOLUTELY ZERO I would like to nip this in the but, PLEX drop just like any other cargo using exactly the same rules. If the PLEX are in a can and the can doesn't drop as loot then everything in the can doesn't drop as loot. In this case it was one role of the die and the can didn't drop, so bye bye all the contents. Sorry if someone else has said this, but I didnt see a can anywhere on that killmail. Could be my mistake, but all the killboards I have checked show no can. http://www.smalliance.com/killboards/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=2847 http://ad0pt.evekb.co.uk/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=1539031 http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=11038826 Here is my two cents on this issue. The changes to the plex do not, will not, nor have they ever affected me. If one of my accounts needs a plex, I go to Jita or Amarr, and buy one. (I am in the militia so I dont go to dodi or rens.) Do I agree with what CCP does? No. Do I like it? No. However CCP is perfectly within their legal rights. Believe it or not, the actual obligation from CCP was gone when the person converted them into plexes. I personally think it is shady, but legal. Although not on the scale, but in the US. Home owners associations can take people's homes for not cutting their grass. (Even if the person, or persons are physically unable to cut it themselves.) While what CCP is doing is no where near as bad, it is still pretty shady. Another fun question for everyone here. How many people make plexes, put em up on the market, and they never get sold? I had two plexes up in Jita for a long time. (Was actually 6 but 2 just never would seem to sell.) Eventually I just gave up and used them. Honestly, if someone wants to make some money, go to the GTC forums here and make your money there.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.09 10:49:00 - [406] Originally by: Aerilis Ok fine. The previous "indestructible" gift cards could only be destroyed by right clicking on a special incinerator in the back of the store, and then clicking OK on a confirmation window. You can patch little holes like this forever, as all analogies are somewhat flawed, but I think I have all the important points covered. The important point is this: This introduces nothing new. Players still have to choose to "give CCP free money". CCP has just given you a destruction mechanism that isn't 100% certain to destroy the item, so if you choose to you can gamble that chance of non-destruction against the chance of earning more ISK. If you want to argue about the horridness of the change, gets your facts about that change right. àand, indeed, as far as the "free money to CCP makes CCP bad" line of reasoning, I still want to know why this particular set of choices is any worse or any different than if I choose not to log in for 30 days, even though I paid CCP for those days? Why isn't this bad behaviour on CCP's part? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Serpents smile	Posted - 2010.08.09 10:51:00 - [407] Still going strong here. The forum warriors do not dissapoint. Originally by: QT McWhiskers Sorry if someone else has said this, but I didnt see a can anywhere on that killmail. Could be my mistake, but all the killboards I have checked show no can. If the plex where stacked, the entire stack gets destroyed (I'm told).
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2010.08.09 10:56:00 - [408] Originally by: Cap II Your analogy is totally irrelevant as you plainly stated that the $20 is for the service of moving the dirt, not taking custody over it. And it is equally plainly stated that CCP owns every single part of EVE, including every single in-game item and character. Only an idiot would believe that sending money to anyone other than CCP (who is not willing to sell those items) gives them ownership of any in-game item or character. The fact that some people are delusional and refuse to accept the obvious truth does not change the fact that ISK/characters/items/etc have never been sold. Quote: I come into possession of a 2010 Chevy Camero. I offer to sell it to you at a cost of $20,000 US and you accept. You give me the money and I give you the keys. It later becomes clear that I stole the car. What is the value of the car? Irrelevant analogy, as you are not buying any item (if you disagree, please explain exactly where in the transaction an item enters your possession) when you send real money to an ISK "seller". Originally by: Cap II You can quibble over terminology all you want, but the fact remains that every day Player A makes an agreement with Player B in that Player A agrees to send X amount of USD to Player B, and in return Player B agrees to send X amount of ISK to Player A. You can quibble over terms and definitions and ownership all you want but you cannot deny that this scenario takes place every single day. Well I guess you could deny it but at that point you'd just be deluding yourself. Yes, that scenario happens every day, however no item has been sold. A service (performing certain in-game actions with items owned by CCP) may have been sold, but no ISK has changed ownership no matter how much money you give to an ISK "seller". Therefore it is impossible to claim that ISK has any real-money value based on its current sale price. Like it or not, the current sale price of ISK is ZERO. It can't be sold, it can't be bought, therefore PLEXes, items, etc, all have zero real-money value. -----------
CyberGh0st Minmatar Ara Veritas	Posted - 2010.08.09 10:58:00 - [409] Originally by: Washell Olivaw Anyone suggested yet that destroyed PLEX like these could be added to a pool which subsequently can be used to make them drop from rare NPC's? No game time ever destroyed, all of it paid for, in-game 'source' of PLEX, makes them a tiny bit more normal. Interesting idea http://www.mmodata.net Favorite MMO's : DAoC Pre-TOA-NF / SWG Pre-CU-NGE
Aerilis Gallente Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2010.08.09 11:00:00 - [410] Edited by: Aerilis on 09/08/2010 11:00:55 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Aerilis Ok fine. The previous "indestructible" gift cards could only be destroyed by right clicking on a special incinerator in the back of the store, and then clicking OK on a confirmation window. You can patch little holes like this forever, as all analogies are somewhat flawed, but I think I have all the important points covered. The important point is this: This introduces nothing new. Players still have to choose to "give CCP free money". CCP has just given you a destruction mechanism that isn't 100% certain to destroy the item, so if you choose to you can gamble that chance of non-destruction against the chance of earning more ISK. If you want to argue about the horridness of the change, gets your facts about that change right. àand, indeed, as far as the "free money to CCP makes CCP bad" line of reasoning, I still want to know why this particular set of choices is any worse or any different than if I choose not to log in for 30 days, even though I paid CCP for those days? Why isn't this bad behaviour on CCP's part? Because CCP went out of their way to wring the playerbase for every last cent using the excuse of "making PLEX like every other item" instead of fixing lag. They must have had a reason for making them indestructible in the first place right? But then their greed got the better of them and they just what they could get away with... But at least you understand what is going on here, unlike those who are like LOL LOSING A PLEX IS SAME AS LOSING A BS HTFU NOOBS

QT McWhiskers	Posted - 2010.08.09 11:18:00 - [411] Originally by: Serpents smile Still going strong here. The forum warriors do not dissapoint. Originally by: QT McWhiskers Sorry if someone else has said this, but I didnt see a can anywhere on that killmail. Could be my mistake, but all the killboards I have checked show no can. If the plex where stacked, the entire stack gets destroyed (I'm told). OK I will accept that. I will have to look through my kill history though. I remember a few kills in the wormhole where salvage did split.
Cailais Amarr THE ORDAINED	Posted - 2010.08.09 11:23:00 - [412] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Like it or not, the current sale price of ISK is ZERO. It can't be sold, it can't be bought, therefore PLEXes, items, etc, all have zero real-money value. That's true to an extent. But clearly ISK has 'a' relative value because of the relationship between buying the game time service and its corresponding in game ISK value. What you cant do is convert ISK all the way back into real-money - the closest approximation is to convert it into game time (which you would otherwise had to have paid real money to have). Because we can do this conversion is possible to say that ISK has an approximate real money value - its just not practical to state that every time we make that comparison. Whilst items in game aren't "sold" in the literal sense (all of them being the ownership of CCP) they are exchanged within the framework of the game - again its not practical to state this every time we talk of 'exchanging' an item within that framework. What is sold, by CCP, is access to the EVE Online game service - which through conversion into the framework of the game (i.e a PLEX) can subsequently be lost without CCP having to honour the implied exchange of real money for access to the EVE Online service. It's that implication which creates the moral quandary and the resultant impression that CCP is getting money for nothing. Whether you think that is morally right is a question only each of us can answer alone. C. the hydrostatic capsule blog
Carmen Opausia	Posted - 2010.08.09 11:30:00 - [413] I wonder if he had his frigate insured
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2010.08.09 11:32:00 - [414] Originally by: Cailais It's that implication which creates the moral quandary and the resultant impression that CCP is getting money for nothing. There is no moral quandary here at all. You are never required to risk anything in the process of using PLEXes or GTCs. CCP has offered a system where you can buy, sell, and use PLEXes without ever having to expose them to any risk: simply buy them (after carefully reading the contract or sale price) and then apply them without taking them out of the station, or convert your GTC in the station you intend to sell the PLEX from and then immediately put it on the market/contracts. The only time your PLEXes are at risk is if you voluntarily decide to take risks in exchange for perceived gain. CCP does not require you to do so, so CCP can not be blamed if taking that risk results in losses. The entire "destroyable PLEX" change is a benefit to the players. Those who do not want risk experience zero change, those who wish to do risky things with their PLEXes are now able to do so. -----------
Yazus Kor Kotharat Logistics	Posted - 2010.08.09 11:38:00 - [415] Edited by: Yazus Kor on 09/08/2010 11:38:24 Don't get the whiners. What's the difference between buying 74 PLEX and losing them and redeeming 74 PLEX, buying that much in goods and losing it? Either way, pilot was stupid for spending that much cash on Internet spaceships in one go. "Beware, you who seek first and final principles, for you are trampling the garden of an angry God and he awaits you just beyond the last theorem."
Baneken Gallente School of the Unseen	Posted - 2010.08.09 11:43:00 - [416] Wow already 14 pages dedicated for stupidity, I wonder how many pages this can go on ? http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Murauke EvE Rookie Collective EvE Rookie Collective Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.09 11:45:00 - [417] I still dont see why you dont use the TimeCard Bazzar? Am i missing something here? Did he actually spend $1000 on those timecards or ISK?
Marlona Sky D00M. Excessum Messor	Posted - 2010.08.09 11:54:00 - [418] I had no idea so many lawyers played this game.
Halcyon Ingenium Caldari Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse	Posted - 2010.08.09 11:57:00 - [419] The more I think of the possibility of getting an plex drop from blowing someones ship up the more I like the idea of people undocking with plex.
Cailais Amarr THE ORDAINED	Posted - 2010.08.09 11:59:00 - [420] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Cailais It's that implication which creates the moral quandary and the resultant impression that CCP is getting money for nothing. There is no moral quandary here at all. You are never required to risk anything in the process of using PLEXes or GTCs. CCP has offered a system where you can buy, sell, and use PLEXes without ever having to expose them to any risk: simply buy them (after carefully reading the contract or sale price) and then apply them without taking them out of the station, or convert your GTC in the station you intend to sell the PLEX from and then immediately put it on the market/contracts. The only time your PLEXes are at risk is if you voluntarily decide to take risks in exchange for perceived gain. CCP does not require you to do so, so CCP can not be blamed if taking that risk results in losses. The entire "destroyable PLEX" change is a benefit to the players. Those who do not want risk experience zero change, those who wish to do risky things with their PLEXes are now able to do so. CCP allows, through its in game mechanics, for a plex to be moved or lost. Admittedly it doesnt require this but is has enabled it. CCP could have enabled another mechanism - for example one where by a PLEX could be instantly transferred but chose not to. One would assume that it chose its current mechanism on the assumption that some PLEX items would be lost. When this event occurred it would receive money without having to then provide a service to a player; again CCP deliberately chose this option. The moral question in this case is should CCP have implemented its current mechanism rather than an alternative mechanism? Is it morally right to accept payment for a service you know you may not have to provide according to the rules you yourself have established? C. the hydrostatic capsule blog

Mashie Saldana BFG Tech	Posted - 2010.08.09 12:24:00 - [421] What is up with all the tears in this thread? I almost get the feeling half of you people have been ganked transporting PLEX.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2010.08.09 12:34:00 - [422] Originally by: Cailais Is it morally right to accept payment for a service you know you may not have to provide according to the rules you yourself have established? CCP provided the service: two PLEX items. CCP's obligation to the purchaser (whether purchased from CCP directly or from a third party) of the GTC has been completed. The fact that the PLEX owner decided it wold be a better use of his PLEXes to suicide them into a waiting gank instead of applying them to his account does not magically give CCP extra obligations here. Quote: The moral question in this case is should CCP have implemented its current mechanism rather than an alternative mechanism? WHY should CCP have implemented an alternative mechanism? It is already 100% risk-free to use a PLEX or GTC. The ability to do potentially dangerous things with your PLEXes is optional. By this reasoning, CCP should also have implemented a different method for selling them. After all, what's the difference between losing your PLEXes by getting your ship destroyed and losing your PLEXes by selling them too cheaply on the market? Perhaps CCP should have made it impossible to sell a PLEX for less than 95% of the average market price? -----------
Bixx Styxx	Posted - 2010.08.09 12:40:00 - [423] My cat's breath smells of cat food.
Sarina Berghil Minmatar New Zion Judge Advocate	Posted - 2010.08.09 12:47:00 - [424] Originally by: Merin Ryskin By this reasoning, CCP should also have implemented a different method for selling them. After all, what's the difference between losing your PLEXes by getting your ship destroyed and losing your PLEXes by selling them too cheaply on the market? Perhaps CCP should have made it impossible to sell a PLEX for less than 95% of the average market price? One difference is that if the PLEX gets destroyed CCP is the only one benefiting from the outcome, while the player base takes the loss. That even means that CCP has a stake in the outcome of the battle. CCP would benefit from a specific side winning. With the trade example, the real life cash balance is neutral, no money entered or exited the system.
Cailais Amarr THE ORDAINED	Posted - 2010.08.09 12:49:00 - [425] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Cailais Is it morally right to accept payment for a service you know you may not have to provide according to the rules you yourself have established? CCP provided the service: two PLEX items. CCP's obligation to the purchaser (whether purchased from CCP directly or from a third party) of the GTC has been completed. The fact that the PLEX owner decided it wold be a better use of his PLEXes to suicide them into a waiting gank instead of applying them to his account does not magically give CCP extra obligations here. Quote: The moral question in this case is should CCP have implemented its current mechanism rather than an alternative mechanism? WHY should CCP have implemented an alternative mechanism? It is already 100% risk-free to use a PLEX or GTC. The ability to do potentially dangerous things with your PLEXes is optional. By this reasoning, CCP should also have implemented a different method for selling them. After all, what's the difference between losing your PLEXes by getting your ship destroyed and losing your PLEXes by selling them too cheaply on the market? Perhaps CCP should have made it impossible to sell a PLEX for less than 95% of the average market price? I think its debatable that CCP have fulfilled their obligations, they haven't supplied anyone with any game time as a result of a plex loss - the primary service they provide. Your second point is fine - if I sell a plex to cheaply that's my own stupid fault: but the player who receives it still gets game time once converted to a GTC. I have zero issue with the ISK loss: my issue is that the Game Time itself is lost - game time that was purchased by someone, at some stage. CCP was paid for that potential Game Time and now no longer has to provide it. Is that right? the hydrostatic capsule blog
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2010.08.09 13:05:00 - [426] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 09/08/2010 13:05:51 Originally by: Cailais I have zero issue with the ISK loss: my issue is that the Game Time itself is lost - game time that was purchased by someone, at some stage. CCP was paid for that potential Game Time and now no longer has to provide it. Game time was not purchased, *two PLEXes* were purchased. CCP has provided the item that the purchaser of the GTC chose to purchase (by their choice of the PLEX redemption option for their GTC). How the player then uses those PLEXes is up to that player. One possible use of a PLEX is converting it into 30 days of game time. Another possible use of a PLEX is to stupidly take it out of station in an un-tanked T1 frigate and get it destroyed. Personally, I prefer the first option, but the second option exists for those players who wish to use it. But really, lost game time isn't a very compelling argument anyway. If I buy a GTC, convert it into PLEXes, and they are destroyed with my ship, I have "lost" 60 days of game time. If I buy a GTC, apply it to my account, and then decide not to log into EVE for two months, I have "lost" 60 days of game time. If I buy a GTC, convert it into PLEXes, then sell those PLEXes to a player who then quits the game (and deletes their characters) before using them, someone has "lost" game time that CCP does not have to provide. Why is only one of these situations a "problem"? -----------
Illwill Bill Raven Dynasty Reloaded LLC	Posted - 2010.08.09 13:09:00 - [427] Originally by: Cailais Is that right? This game is as close as you get to having a game called "Capitalism online", yet you, as well as many others, complain about CCP being greedy? Forgive me, if I find this amusing; the irony is simply to great! As pointed out in a previous post, the paying customer has already received what he/she paid for, and the one person who lost the plex did so, because he/she took a risk that was not neccesary. There is a completely safe way of trading game time for ISK in this game; scams are not allowed in the Timecode bazaar. When you convert a GTC to two in-game items, you accept that those in-game items are subjects to the rules of the game. This includes the risk of scamming, and destruction. The person purchasing a plex with ISK is not a paying customer, and is merely purchasing an in-game item for in-game currency. This item can be converted to game time; however, should this person decide to move the item, it can be destroyed, stolen, or otherwise nullified, according to the rules of the game. Undocking a ship with 74 plexes is not an act of a poor student that wants to finance his gaming with the ISK he makes during game time; it obviously a person that trades plexes. As such this person took the risk of undocking with 22 billion ISK worth of items in his cargohold, and as it turned out, that was a very bad move. Once again, congratulations 0rphans. You performed one of the coolest assasinations I have ever seen in this game.
Franga Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams	Posted - 2010.08.09 13:13:00 - [428] Originally by: Bixx Styxx My cat's breath smells of cat food.
Kerdrak Big Guns Inc. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.09 13:15:00 - [429] Acording to my killboard, I have killed almost 150b isk. That isk could have been invested in plexes that could have been added to people's accounts. People that could be spinning their ships in a safe station right now... But the damage is already done Please, people of EVE: NEVER UNDOCK! the isk is getting destroyed! EVERYDAY! ________________________________________
Ivon Strom	Posted - 2010.08.09 13:18:00 - [430] lol, this has been a hot topic in IRC. It's hilarious; how god damn stupid do you have to be to undock WHILE AT WAR and not check local. I guess we should also demand all ingame items be treated like Plexs USE to be treated since well..I sell Plexs and use the ISK to buy ingame items. So...all you industrial people guess you'll have to figure out how to get those fresh T2 munitions to market since you can't take them out of the storage facility/NPC Station. Oh! and while we're at it why don't we make 0.5 and higher a no-pvp zone. Oh heck, why don't we just get rid of that ol' pvp thing all together. This game clearly needs to be WoW-ized. You don't like how CCP is running things...LEAVE* *and don't let the door hit your arse on the way out.

Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.08.09 13:31:00 - [431] Originally by: Cap II Edited by: Cap II on 09/08/2010 09:50:10 I've never at any point suggested that any of us own anything related to this game infact i've stated the opposite outright. I've also stated that this lack of ownership does not mean that we cannot buy or sell these goods. Just to point out the obvious: what you do not own, you can not sell. You CAN agree with someone that he gives you X $, and you give him X ISK. Though this looks like a sale, it realy is not. First of all, the rules prohibit this and clearly state that all in-game items, including ISK, is the property of CCP. For you to sell that for $ you would have to steal it. You can not steal it, therefore you can not sell it. Tho it is a subtle difference, you sold your 'used in-game time' to someone, represented by ISK in this case. Ownership never changed, just the 'right' to use it. Quote: And if you could go ahead and tell me what the difference between "perceived" value and real value is i'm all ears. This ties into opportunity cost. Whatever someone is willing to part with for an X amount of ISK is the percieved (by the 'buyer') value at that moment. It's not a real value tho, I can not go to Wallstreet and buy shares with my ISK, however much I have. I could break all the rules, find someone who is willing to exchange ISK for $, make an agreement with him and hand over ISK in return for $'s, and then go back to Wallstreet, but that is not the same. If you can find me someone, not playing EVE, not into RMT, that would want to give you $ for ISK, please let me know. This illustrates the difference between percieved and real value I think. Quote: Of course you don't have to take my word for any of this, just ask CCP. They have all sorts of rules in the EULA about how ISK selling is illegal and whatnot. If ISK selling doesn't happen as you and Mr. One-extra-chromosome up there would have me believe then why does CCP have rules against it? Why do we have that little "report isk seller" button for a circumstance that you claim doesn't exist? TBH, that's a part of the EULA that need rewriting, as it is clearly stated in the rules that you do not own anything in-game. CCP is the sole owner. It would be quite difficult to create a readable ruleset that takes legal issues into account on this matter. To keep things simple, terminology we know is being used, giving people a warped sense of what takes place. You are right on your opportunity cost example, but that applies different to each and every individual, and thus does NOT create real value. It creates a choice. The choice does impact your wallet in some cases. Not the supposed value of the ISK. You are right tho, it's hair splitting. Much needed hair splitting tho, with all the flawed arguements floating around about how $$$ got destroyed by this gank. ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
0oO0oOoOo0o	Posted - 2010.08.09 13:35:00 - [432] Let's pretend, the PLEX did survive and the person who destroyed the ship with the PLEX took possession of the PLEX. a) The PLEX is a contractual obligation, which is bound to and represented by the PLEX software. b) This contractual obligation is an valuable asset and can be subject of internet crime (fraud, theft, robbery). c) This value previously belonged to the victim (the victim could turn them into a 30d subscription), after the incident they belong to the perpetrator (who now can turn them into the 30d). Definition robbery: Robbery is the crime of taking or attempting to take something of value by force or threat of force and/or by putting the victim in fear. At common law, robbery is defined as taking the property of another, with the intent to permanently deprive the person of that property, by means of force or fear. Definition theft: In criminal law, theft is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent. You can chose which of the crimes were committed. Note: the victim did not agree in being robbed/scammed/stolen from. CCP can't make a criminal offence legally valid by contractual agreements. By offering a platform and opportunity to commit that kind of internet crime, CCP could be convicted of enabling and promoting internet criminality, if such a case is brought up to a criminal court.
Cailais Amarr THE ORDAINED	Posted - 2010.08.09 13:36:00 - [433] Originally by: Merin Ryskin If I buy a GTC, convert it into PLEXes, and they are destroyed with my ship, I have "lost" 60 days of game time. And CCP has to provide what as a result? - Nothing. Originally by: Merin Ryskin If I buy a GTC, apply it to my account, and then decide not to log into EVE for two months, I have "lost" 60 days of game time. CCP is still providing access to its service, it just so happens that isnt used in this instance but thats a value judgement on the part of the buyer. Originally by: Merin Ryskin If I buy a GTC, convert it into PLEXes, then sell those PLEXes to a player who then quits the game (and deletes their characters) before using them, someone has "lost" game time that CCP does not have to provide. Again it would still has to potentially provide those services. In example 2 and 3 CCP still has the potential to be required to honour its half of the deal. Once the plex is destroyed that requirement has gone. It is of course a question of relative value. A player may chose not to utilise the PLEX for game time (quit, not log on etc) in which case CCP has gotten a good deal. But the likelihood of that occurring is no different to someone who has subbed for an account. With the PLEX CCP is working on the expectation that it will be paid for doing absolutely nothing. In fact its has hard wired into the game a higher % chance that this will indeed be the case. Now you can argue for all eternity that it wasn't game time but two plexes that were purchased but from my perspective that is being pedantic and arguing over a description when we both know perfectly well that a PLEX is, to all intents and purposes, an ISK trade able form of the game time code. By making a PLEX destroyable CCP have explicitly factored in a source of revenue that they do not have to recompense with game time. I, personally, find that disturbing although I understand the logic of it from a business perspective. C. the hydrostatic capsule blog
Jitaholic	Posted - 2010.08.09 13:39:00 - [434] Massively covered this. http://www.massively.com/2010/08/08/eve-player-destroys-over-1000-worth-of-game-time/ Have to agree with: Quote: Perhaps the real winner here is CCP, who was paid for $1,295 worth of game time that can never be redeemed.
uNtOldPAIN Minmatar Covert-Nexus	Posted - 2010.08.09 13:39:00 - [435] CCP has nothing to do with this... The guy took a risk and took them out of dock. He got popped and the Plexs popped. All I see are people crying cause they didn't get it and saying that CCP got $$. Who cares. What's next? OMG the faction item that was on that ship popped CCP made out/foul! The item wasn't yours and still wont be. Don't undock with a plex in your cargo hold. Don't cry like a baby when it pops and you didn't get it.
Cailais Amarr THE ORDAINED	Posted - 2010.08.09 13:43:00 - [436] Originally by: uNtOldPAIN CCP has nothing to do with this... With the exception of enabling it to occur in the first place. Apart from that you're right they're not involved. C. the hydrostatic capsule blog
Lena Planeswalker IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.08.09 13:44:00 - [437] Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o Let's pretend, the PLEX did survive and the person who destroyed the ship with the PLEX took possession of the PLEX. a) The PLEX is a contractual obligation, which is bound to and represented by the PLEX software. b) This contractual obligation is an valuable asset and can be subject of internet crime (fraud, theft, robbery). c) This value previously belonged to the victim (the victim could turn them into a 30d subscription), after the incident they belong to the perpetrator (who now can turn them into the 30d). Definition robbery: Robbery is the crime of taking or attempting to take something of value by force or threat of force and/or by putting the victim in fear. At common law, robbery is defined as taking the property of another, with the intent to permanently deprive the person of that property, by means of force or fear. Definition theft: In criminal law, theft is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent. You can chose which of the crimes were committed. Note: the victim did not agree in being robbed/scammed/stolen from. CCP can't make a criminal offence legally valid by contractual agreements. By offering a platform and opportunity to commit that kind of internet crime, CCP could be convicted of enabling and promoting internet criminality, if such a case is brought up to a criminal court. a) wrong b) wrong and c) also wrong You can't mix rl legal systems into this however much you want as the simple fact remains all items etc ingame are property of CCP and hence cannot change hands in a legal or illegal way which makes your points about robbery and theft null and void. Same goes for every single other argument the naysayers have conjured up. The only thing you can argue is that plexes are destroyed and CCP gets free money which at most is unethical or immoral but in no way shape or form illegal. didn't like that sig anyways...
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2010.08.09 13:52:00 - [438] The whining and crying in the thread, from him and his alliance mates is awesome. So much fail, I really didn't think it possible on this level. Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
Cailais Amarr THE ORDAINED	Posted - 2010.08.09 13:56:00 - [439] Originally by: Mag's The whining and crying in the thread, from him and his alliance mates is awesome. So much fail, I really didn't think it possible on this level. Ive only done a quick run through but cant see any posts from the victims alliance or corp? Who are you referring too? C. the hydrostatic capsule blog
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:00:00 - [440] Originally by: Cailais Originally by: Mag's The whining and crying in the thread, from him and his alliance mates is awesome. So much fail, I really didn't think it possible on this level. Ive only done a quick run through but cant see any posts from the victims alliance or corp? Who are you referring too? C. You must be new to the Eveonline forums..... welcome. Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.

Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:02:00 - [441] Originally by: Mag's You must be new to the Eveonline forums..... welcome. There is this thing about assumption being the mother of all farkups... assuming all people whining here are alts of said alliance is bordering on being plain stupid. ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:08:00 - [442] Originally by: Ressiv Originally by: Mag's You must be new to the Eveonline forums..... welcome. There is this thing about assumption being the mother of all farkups... assuming all people whining here are alts of said alliance is bordering on being plain stupid. You need to point to where, I said all the whining was from them. What was that about being stupid? Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:09:00 - [443] Originally by: Mag's You need to point to where, I said all the whining was from them. What was that about being stupid? Please forgive me for generalising in the same way you just did. Can I have a copy of the alt list you seem to have ? ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
Exordium8 Minmatar Hell's Horsemen HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:10:00 - [444] Originally by: CCP EULA Your Account, and ALL ATTRIBUTES OF YOUR ACCOUNT, including all corporations, actions, groups, titles and characters, and ALL OBJECTS, CURRENCY AND ITEMS acquired, developed or delivered by or to characters as a result of play through your Accounts, are the SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE PROPERTY OF CCP I don't see what the issue is. There's all this talk about contracts and such. The fact is when you bought the game you signed a legally binding agreement stating all in-game items are CCP's. Not some, all. Without exception. Everything. Not everything but PLEXs. Every single item in the database. The minute the code is redeemed, it becomes an in-game item. Thus CCP's. Yes, it sucks, but it was his choice. --------------------------------- Pillage, then burn. Everything is air-droppable at least once. There is no 'overkill.' There is only 'open fire' and 'time to reload.
Cailais Amarr THE ORDAINED	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:16:00 - [445] Originally by: Mag's Originally by: Ressiv Originally by: Mag's You must be new to the Eveonline forums..... welcome. There is this thing about assumption being the mother of all farkups... assuming all people whining here are alts of said alliance is bordering on being plain stupid. You need to point to where, I said all the whining was from them. What was that about being stupid? I cant see that much whining, most seem to approve of it. Its a bit like the mythical carebear whines that everyone talks of but tend to be in the absolute minority. Personally Im very much in favour of personal loss in game - without it EVE wouldnt be the game that it is. Im less enamoured of CCP profiteering without any noticeable effort on their part and I think in this specific case its a mechanic that is bordering upon the unethical. Had the guy lost 22billion in implants Id be the first to be slapping 0rphanage on the back for a job well done. C. the hydrostatic capsule blog
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:16:00 - [446] Originally by: Ressiv Originally by: Mag's You need to point to where, I said all the whining was from them. What was that about being stupid? Please forgive me for generalising in the same way you just did. Can I have a copy of the alt list you seem to have ? So what you are saying is, that neither he or his alliance mates have posted in this thread with an alt? Yea I can believe that. (That bit was sarcasm btw, in case you missed it.) Are you also new to these forums? Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
0oO0oOoOo0o	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:19:00 - [447] Edited by: 0oO0oOoOo0o on 09/08/2010 14:22:35 Originally by: Lena Planeswalker You can't mix rl legal systems into this however much you want as the simple fact remains all items etc ingame are property of CCP and hence cannot change hands in a legal or illegal way which makes your points about robbery and theft null and void. a) There's no legal vacuum, you bought something with rl money, in our case a legal obligation by CCP to grant you 30 days of subscription time whenever you redeem the PLEX. The plex graphics itself might belong to CCP, the value of that legal obligation is still yours. It did not perish by turning GTC into PLEX. b) In many legal systems it doesn't even have to be "property". As long as it is something of economic value, it can be subject of crime. A right to be granted 30 days subscription is of value, even if CCP had property of the plex. Only a legally trained person who is expert in the criminal law system, which will apply for such a trial, can say anything for sure here. If I were CCP, I'd not risk it.
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:25:00 - [448] Originally by: Mag's Edited by: Mag''s on 09/08/2010 14:18:47 Originally by: Ressiv Originally by: Mag's You need to point to where, I said all the whining was from them. What was that about being stupid? Please forgive me for generalising in the same way you just did. Can I have a copy of the alt list you seem to have ? So what you are saying is, that neither he or his alliance mates have posted in this thread with an alt? Yea I can believe that. (That bit was sarcasm btw, in case you missed it.) Are you also new to these forums? Edit: oh and you didn't generalise, you were just wrong and didn't read what I posted. New poster, yeah, other then that, not really. I did read what you posted, and thereore asked if I could get a copy of that alt list you seem to have. If you dont have it, you dont really have a way of knowing who is who on here, do you ? ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
Cailais Amarr THE ORDAINED	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:28:00 - [449] Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o It did not perish by turning GTC into PLEX. Strictly speaking it did perish. By converting the GTC into a plex it becomes an in game item and thus owned by CCP - albeit a rather unique one in that it can be converted back in 'game time'. A plex is an unusual item in that it exists in an 'limbo state' in game - its potential to become game time is what describes its relative worth in ISK but it has no value in an of itself in real currency. C. the hydrostatic capsule blog
Lena Planeswalker IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:33:00 - [450] Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o Edited by: 0oO0oOoOo0o on 09/08/2010 14:22:35 Originally by: Lena Planeswalker You can't mix rl legal systems into this however much you want as the simple fact remains all items etc ingame are property of CCP and hence cannot change hands in a legal or illegal way which makes your points about robbery and theft null and void. a) There's no legal vacuum, you bought something with rl money, in our case a legal obligation by CCP to grant you 30 days of subscription time whenever you redeem the PLEX. The plex graphics itself might belong to CCP, the value of that legal obligation is still yours. It did not perish by turning GTC into PLEX. b) In many legal systems it doesn't even have to be "property". As long as it is something of economic value, it can be subject of crime. A right to be granted 30 days subscription is of value, even if CCP had property of the plex. Only a legally trained person who is expert in the criminal law system, which will apply for such a trial, can say anything for sure here. If I were CCP, I'd not risk it. Originally by: Exordium8 Originally by: CCP EULA Your Account, and ALL ATTRIBUTES OF YOUR ACCOUNT, including all corporations, actions, groups, titles and characters, and ALL OBJECTS, CURRENCY AND ITEMS acquired, developed or delivered by or to characters as a result of play through your Accounts, are the SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE PROPERTY OF CCP I don't see what the issue is. There's all this talk about contracts and such. The fact is when you bought the game you signed a legally binding agreement stating all in-game items are CCP's. Not some, all. Without exception. Everything. Not everything but PLEXs. Every single item in the database. The minute the code is redeemed, it becomes an in-game item. Thus CCP's. Yes, it sucks, but it was his choice. do i really need to spell it out even more? actually don't awnser im not even going to bother. didn't like that sig anyways...

0oO0oOoOo0o	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:33:00 - [451] Originally by: Exordium8 Originally by: CCP EULA Your Account, and ALL ATTRIBUTES OF YOUR ACCOUNT, including all corporations, actions, groups, titles and characters, and ALL OBJECTS, CURRENCY AND ITEMS acquired, developed or delivered by or to characters as a result of play through your Accounts, are the SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE PROPERTY OF CCP I don't see what the issue is. There's all this talk about contracts and such. The fact is when you bought the game you signed a legally binding agreement stating all in-game items are CCP's. Not some, all. Without exception. Everything. Not everything but PLEXs. Every single item in the database. The minute the code is redeemed, it becomes an in-game item. Thus CCP's. Yes, it sucks, but it was his choice. The contractual obligation represented by the PLEX is not an attribute of your account or object, currency or item "delivered by or to characters as a result of play through your Accounts". The plex graphics is, but not the contractual obligation. Otherwise you had no legally enforceable right to be granted a 30 day subscription, if you click on the plex and redeem it. CCP could refuse to extend your account, as it is "their" PLEX. You'd pay money for no service in return. If the quoted regulation extended CCP ownership on the contractual obligation between you and CCP, the regulation were null and void.
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:34:00 - [452] Originally by: Ressiv New poster, yeah, other then that, not really. I did read what you posted, and thereore asked if I could get a copy of that alt list you seem to have. If you dont have it, you dont really have a way of knowing who is who on here, do you ? New poster, welcome to the eveonline forums. Why would I need a list, human nature plus the nature of these forums means I'm right. Assumption yes, but based on experience of these forums. Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
Cailais Amarr THE ORDAINED	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:39:00 - [453] Originally by: Mag's Originally by: Ressiv New poster, yeah, other then that, not really. I did read what you posted, and thereore asked if I could get a copy of that alt list you seem to have. If you dont have it, you dont really have a way of knowing who is who on here, do you ? I haven't got a list. Im making stuff up Fixed C. the hydrostatic capsule blog
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:41:00 - [454] Originally by: Cailais Originally by: Mag's Changed post by failed to understand Cailias. Fixed C. Prove me wrong. Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
Cailais Amarr THE ORDAINED	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:43:00 - [455] Originally by: Mag's Originally by: Cailais Originally by: Mag's Changed post by failed to understand Cailias. Fixed C. Prove me wrong. Prove ME wrong! Plus my cat can beat up your cat. C. the hydrostatic capsule blog
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:45:00 - [456] Edited by: Mag''s on 09/08/2010 14:45:12 Originally by: Cailais stuff.. So we are both right and both wrong at the same time. Plus I don't own a cat, my dog doesn't like them. Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
Cailais Amarr THE ORDAINED	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:47:00 - [457] Originally by: Mag's Edited by: Mag''s on 09/08/2010 14:45:12 Originally by: Cailais stuff.. So we are both right and both wrong at the same time. Plus I don't own a cat, my dog doesn't like them. So my cat wins by default? I also have a dog - but he'd lose to the cat and is not much use in a fight. C. the hydrostatic capsule blog
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:49:00 - [458] Edited by: Mag''s on 09/08/2010 14:49:51 Originally by: Cailais So my cat wins by default? I also have a dog - but he'd lose to the cat and is not much use in a fight. C. Actually I'd probably say yes, cats claws are vicious things. But no cats stayed around long enough to find out. (He's rather large.) Edit: This threads now about cats and dogs. Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:51:00 - [459] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 09/08/2010 14:52:13 Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o The contractual obligation represented by the PLEX is not an attribute of your account or object, currency or item "delivered by or to characters as a result of play through your Accounts". The plex graphics is, but not the contractual obligation. Otherwise you had no legally enforceable right to be granted a 30 day subscription, if you click on the plex and redeem it. CCP could refuse to extend your account, as it is "their" PLEX. You'd pay money for no service in return. If the quoted regulation extended CCP ownership on the contractual obligation between you and CCP, the regulation were null and void. A PLEX has no contractual obligations. The only object that has contractual obligations is the GTC which you purchase for real money. By purchasing a GTC, CCP is required to provide, when you redeem the GTC, your choice of one of the following two items: 1) 60 days of time added to your account. OR 2) Two PLEXes, an in-game item which is subject to all of the rules governing in-game items (such as possibly being destroyed, legal to use in scams, sold on the in-game market and/or contracts, etc). Once CCP provides your two PLEXes (if you choose that redemption method), they have fulfilled their part of the contract. If you decide to do risky things with your PLEXes which lead to them being destroyed, too bad, sucks to be you. Try not to be an idiot next time you have valuable items? But really, I don't see why this is such a big issue. It's a win-win situation all around: CCP gets extra money, stupid people lose their stuff, and the people who enforce Darwin's laws on the stupid possibly get a little extra "thank you" bonus for their efforts. -----------
Apollo Gabriel Domini Lex Talionis Etherium Cartel	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:53:00 - [460] 1st) I don't care that the pilot got blown up, 2nd) PLEX are NOT in game items. They have no in game function. They should not be in the game, they should not be moveable there is NO reason to move them. Why were they changed? They are not just any other item. If you think they are, then help petition CCP to sell them through a loyalty store, or HTFU. 3rd) CCP is the only beneficiary, it allows them to accept money for a service and then not provide it. They should not be moveable. TO CCP: The implicit promise of polished quality keeps me playing through the rough times. Don't let the Trolls keep you from your goals.

Una Achura	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:54:00 - [461] Originally by: Mag's Edited by: Mag''s on 09/08/2010 14:49:51 Originally by: Cailais So my cat wins by default? I also have a dog - but he'd lose to the cat and is not much use in a fight. C. Actually I'd probably say yes, cats claws are vicious things. But no cats stayed around long enough to find out. (He's rather large.) Edit: This threads now about cats and dogs. I thank you both. Oh, and cats.
BIZZAROSTORMY	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:55:00 - [462] 1710 Dollar loss. WOW. That gets into the realm of large gambling debts. Careful CCP. there are different laws involved at that level.
AtheistOfFail Caldari	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:55:00 - [463] Edited by: AtheistOfFail on 09/08/2010 14:55:18 Wasn't there something about monitoring and possibly changing the system if all hell broke loose? I swear i read that somewhere and i think this qualifies. ~~~~~Signature Starts Here~~~~~ Need a 3rd party for a transaction or a character price check? Check out my ad.
uNtOldPAIN Minmatar Covert-Nexus	Posted - 2010.08.09 15:03:00 - [464] Originally by: Apollo Gabriel 1st) I don't care that the pilot got blown up, 2nd) PLEX are NOT in game items. They have no in game function. They should not be in the game, they should not be moveable there is NO reason to move them. Why were they changed? They are not just any other item. If you think they are, then help petition CCP to sell them through a loyalty store, or HTFU. 3rd) CCP is the only beneficiary, it allows them to accept money for a service and then not provide it. They should not be moveable. Then don't move it... How hard is that? You move it and lose it...bye bye You pop someone with it and it didn't drop. Don't post about it and cry.
Mia Sin Amarr Space Ponies	Posted - 2010.08.09 15:09:00 - [465] Originally by: AtheistOfFail Edited by: AtheistOfFail on 09/08/2010 14:55:18 Wasn't there something about monitoring and possibly changing the system if all hell broke loose? I swear i read that somewhere and i think this qualifies. But hell doesn't break loose because some guy decides to undock with an ungodly amount of something. Nobody would have cared if he lost a stack of officer mods worth 22B in that exploding frigate, so why do people feel the need to act as if this was any different?
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2010.08.09 15:11:00 - [466] Originally by: uNtOldPAIN Then don't move it... How hard is that? You move it and lose it...bye bye You pop someone with it and it didn't drop. Don't post about it and cry. This. Moving PLEXes is *voluntary. If you want to keep your PLEXes 100% safe and not move them, you are free to do so. For you, nothing has changed*. You have absolutely no reason to complain about the changes, so STFU and stop crying. If you're stupid enough to lose a PLEX (hint: it's generally better to transport them in a covert ops ship than in a T1 frigate), you deserve to lose it. If you lose a PLEX and whine about it on the forums, you deserve to lose your PLEX and be permanently banned from EVE. -----------
Ivon Strom	Posted - 2010.08.09 15:13:00 - [467] Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o Originally by: Exordium8 Originally by: CCP EULA Your Account, and ALL ATTRIBUTES OF YOUR ACCOUNT, including all corporations, actions, groups, titles and characters, and ALL OBJECTS, CURRENCY AND ITEMS acquired, developed or delivered by or to characters as a result of play through your Accounts, are the SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE PROPERTY OF CCP I don't see what the issue is. There's all this talk about contracts and such. The fact is when you bought the game you signed a legally binding agreement stating all in-game items are CCP's. Not some, all. Without exception. Everything. Not everything but PLEXs. Every single item in the database. The minute the code is redeemed, it becomes an in-game item. Thus CCP's. Yes, it sucks, but it was his choice. The contractual obligation represented by the PLEX is not an attribute of your account or object, currency or item "delivered by or to characters as a result of play through your Accounts". The plex graphics is, but not the contractual obligation. Otherwise you had no legally enforceable right to be granted a 30 day subscription, if you click on the plex and redeem it. CCP could refuse to extend your account, as it is "their" PLEX. You'd pay money for no service in return. If the quoted regulation extended CCP ownership on the contractual obligation between you and CCP, the regulation were null and void. lol...wrrrrong...so so so wrong. The Plex is WORTH 30days. The ONLY time you could pull this crap is if you applied it and it granted you less than 30days. Then yes, you could bring about a lawsuit. But you keep believing there's a case. Fact, if I was CCP I'd just ban the lot of you complaining that CCP owes the idiot pilot. Why? because they have the right to terminate your account because THEY FELT LIKE IT. Or allow us to wardec the QQers here (without paying the fee) so we can happily grief you until you QUIT.
Chuck Sands	Posted - 2010.08.09 15:26:00 - [468] The pilot was dumb. This thread is really dumb. CCP should use that money to buy beer.
Mangala Solaris Caldari Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.08.09 15:26:00 - [469] Jesus. Thread reads like a bunch of spacemonkey alts finding ways they could get these reimbursed. Signature rotation removed for containing inappropriate signatures. Zymurgist
Sarina Berghil Minmatar New Zion Judge Advocate	Posted - 2010.08.09 15:30:00 - [470] Originally by: Merin Ryskin A PLEX has no contractual obligations. The only object that has contractual obligations is the GTC which you purchase for real money. By purchasing a GTC, CCP is required to provide, when you redeem the GTC, your choice of one of the following two items: 1) 60 days of time added to your account. OR 2) Two PLEXes, an in-game item which is subject to all of the rules governing in-game items (such as possibly being destroyed, legal to use in scams, sold on the in-game market and/or contracts, etc). Once CCP provides your two PLEXes (if you choose that redemption method), they have fulfilled their part of the contract. If you decide to do risky things with your PLEXes which lead to them being destroyed, too bad, sucks to be you. Try not to be an idiot next time you have valuable items? By that definition a PLEX would have no value at all, since it wouldn't serve any purpose. Players rightfully assume that the PLEX represents a service promised by CCP - in other words a contract, maybe not legally binding but still an expectation. And that's the only reason it has an in-game market value. Quote: But really, I don't see why this is such a big issue. It's a win-win situation all around: CCP gets extra money, stupid people lose their stuff, and the people who enforce Darwin's laws on the stupid possibly get a little extra "thank you" bonus for their efforts. It puts CCPs credibility at risk in an unecessary way, and may also put the credibility of PLEX'es at risk. For instance if CCP stand to gain financially from a certain in-game event, it opens up the possibility of speculation of how neutral CCP is. Speculation like this may not be warranted, but it can still be quite damaging. If rumors spread that CCP can not honour the amount of plexes issued, it may cause the price to crash and put the whole system at risk. What is there to gain from the recent change? I don't really see much of an advantage from a large scale perspective. Although there's a few minor gameplay effects that some may find useful. On the matter of stupid people, I've never met any that would qualify in this context. Although everyone I know sometimes makes stupid mistakes, no exception. 'Stupid people' usually means people we don't know and therefore don't care about. From an ethical point of view, I don't think its right to fraud someone just because I think they are stupid, or because I never met them.

Captin Corsair	Posted - 2010.08.09 15:32:00 - [471] the pilot risks loosing them, if trying to get profit from relocating to a place where the rich people who are lazy live - if you die on the way so be it, risk vs reward right? seems totally fine to me.
Cilibus	Posted - 2010.08.09 15:35:00 - [472] The victim is apparently female. For all the Eve players out there: it's the gender with the slit between their legs.
GrandMaster JAX	Posted - 2010.08.09 15:36:00 - [473] What does this weird word "Ethics" mean? I do believe that natural selection is truly magnificent. Oh ... and i like catgirls.
Cap II GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.08.09 15:40:00 - [474] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Cap II Your analogy is totally irrelevant as you plainly stated that the $20 is for the service of moving the dirt, not taking custody over it. And it is equally plainly stated that CCP owns every single part of EVE, including every single in-game item and character. Only an idiot would believe that sending money to anyone other than CCP (who is not willing to sell those items) gives them ownership of any in-game item or character. The fact that some people are delusional and refuse to accept the obvious truth does not change the fact that ISK/characters/items/etc have never been sold. Quote: I come into possession of a 2010 Chevy Camero. I offer to sell it to you at a cost of $20,000 US and you accept. You give me the money and I give you the keys. It later becomes clear that I stole the car. What is the value of the car? Irrelevant analogy, as you are not buying any item (if you disagree, please explain exactly where in the transaction an item enters your possession) when you send real money to an ISK "seller". Originally by: Cap II You can quibble over terminology all you want, but the fact remains that every day Player A makes an agreement with Player B in that Player A agrees to send X amount of USD to Player B, and in return Player B agrees to send X amount of ISK to Player A. You can quibble over terms and definitions and ownership all you want but you cannot deny that this scenario takes place every single day. Well I guess you could deny it but at that point you'd just be deluding yourself. Yes, that scenario happens every day, however no item has been sold. A service (performing certain in-game actions with items owned by CCP) may have been sold, but no ISK has changed ownership no matter how much money you give to an ISK "seller". Therefore it is impossible to claim that ISK has any real-money value based on its current sale price. Like it or not, the current sale price of ISK is ZERO. It can't be sold, it can't be bought, therefore PLEXes, items, etc, all have zero real-money value. Continue to be dense all you want, but people buy and sell what isn't theirs every day often resulting in a sizeable real world value. You can twist and grind your teeth until the end of time and this fact will not change. I'll let you continue to quibble over definition and terms but at the end of the day you're down right stupid. [yellow]Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes[
elisabeth tyrrell	Posted - 2010.08.09 15:44:00 - [475] http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=4032&tid=7 looks like ISD finally decided to write something about it
Sarina Berghil Minmatar New Zion Judge Advocate	Posted - 2010.08.09 15:49:00 - [476] Originally by: GrandMaster JAX What does this weird word "Ethics" mean? I do believe that natural selection is truly magnificent. Oh ... and i like catgirls. If natural selection actually worked, none of us would have ever been born, and online games would be an impossible concept. - "Shabby scientific theories that never works as advertised... " Heads off to kick Darwin in the nuts
Cailais Amarr THE ORDAINED	Posted - 2010.08.09 15:50:00 - [477] Originally by: elisabeth tyrrell http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=4032&tid=7 looks like ISD finally decided to write something about it One less subscriber / player eh? Ah well CCP made a nice pile of cash short term so I think they'll conclude this as "mission successful". C. the hydrostatic capsule blog
CyberRaver Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers	Posted - 2010.08.09 15:57:00 - [478] Well isd reported on it, So guess what space monkeys, your calling us cheaters and exploiters didnt work ;) We can has your isk? HIghly tempted to vote for another week of space monkey fun
Ivon Strom	Posted - 2010.08.09 15:59:00 - [479] Originally by: Cailais Originally by: elisabeth tyrrell http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=4032&tid=7 looks like ISD finally decided to write something about it One less subscriber / player eh? Ah well CCP made a nice pile of cash short term so I think they'll conclude this as "mission successful". C. nope, just rerolled to avoid the ridicule. PS: Please lock and delete this thread and threads related to this story...
0oO0oOoOo0o	Posted - 2010.08.09 16:04:00 - [480] Originally by: Merin Ryskin A PLEX has no contractual obligations. The only object that has contractual obligations is the GTC which you purchase for real money. ... Once CCP provides your two PLEXes (if you choose that redemption method), they have fulfilled their part of the contract. If you were right, next time you click on the PLEX in order to redeem it, there could be a message like "Bugger off! We take the PLEX and you won't get a single day added to your account, because we have no contractual obligation anymore to give you anything for OUR PLEX." And if you were right, you couldn't sue CCP or withdraw from the contract, asking your money back. This might be true if you live in a banana republic, but in any modern country with a healthy legal system CCP could not get away with that. The PLEX is not just an ingame item like everything else.

CyberRaver Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers	Posted - 2010.08.09 16:04:00 - [481] Quote: nope, just rerolled to avoid the ridicule. PS: Please lock and delete this thread and threads related to this story... Why to save your pathetic alliance more ridicule? ISD reported on this its a legit discussion, and the hot topic of the week
Hugh Munguss	Posted - 2010.08.09 16:05:00 - [482] 1. The reason people would want to move PLEX is due to the "Broker's Fee". When setting up a sell order...you have to pay a broker's listing fee. This fee is based upon skills as well as standing with the owner of the station where the order is being placed. PLEX has become a .01 item on the trade boards...people want to skim as much profit as they can. 2. All this legal banter is absurd. The day little children playing on the beach or in a sandbox start getting lawyers because some kid came up and knocked down their sand castle...well, that is just pathetic! 3. I would suggest a Whineageddon in the future, so we can start to rid Eve of our little whiney babies...
Ivon Strom	Posted - 2010.08.09 16:23:00 - [483] Originally by: CyberRaver Quote: nope, just rerolled to avoid the ridicule. PS: Please lock and delete this thread and threads related to this story... Why to save your pathetic alliance more ridicule? ISD reported on this its a legit discussion, and the hot topic of the week I'm assuming you're not a SpaceMonkey. But I'm not even associated with them, I heard about it in IRC and have followed it since; laughing my ass off. And now I'm getting tired of the Interwub Lawlyers, who seem to think that because they paid for this game they are entitled to all sorts of things. The only thing you are entitled to is the PRIVILEGE of logging into the game. If people have an issue with how CCP is running the show. DON'T ING PLAY THE GOD DAMN GAME. [rant] ("you" does not refer to CyberRaver) You aren't owed a damn thing. In fact, you should be grateful the community as a whole doesn't gang up on you and wardec and make your game lives miserable. This is exactly what happens when parents fail to raise a child correctly. They end up being spoiled brats who think everything belongs to them and the world MUST be fair for them and only them. I bet 50 Plexs that each and every single one of the people here who think CCP is in the wrong would do a 180 if they were the ones who had shot up a kestrel and actually had the 74 Plexs drop. You'd all be swearing up and down that it was part of the game and how you shouldn't be made to return said Plexs. Funny how everything's fair until you're on the receiving end... [/rant]
NeoTheo Dark Materials	Posted - 2010.08.09 16:26:00 - [484] Merin is correct, i hate it when that happens. Everyone needs to stop crying; if you die with a plex in your hold your doing it wrong. /Theo
Serax Rise Rebel Resist	Posted - 2010.08.09 16:28:00 - [485] LMFAO, Darwin was so ****ing right.
uNtOldPAIN Minmatar Covert-Nexus	Posted - 2010.08.09 16:28:00 - [486] Originally by: Serax LMFAO, Darwin was so ****ing right. Big time RIP to the Plexs that dropped.
Khors Amtek Inc	Posted - 2010.08.09 16:31:00 - [487] People are idiots. If they mined to get 22bil isk, or got it from lootdrops by NPC's, or if they bought it in PLEXes from CCP, it doesn't make them less idiots or more entitled to keep that isk if they **** up.
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2010.08.09 16:33:00 - [488] Edited by: SencneS on 09/08/2010 16:33:01 The only issue I have is literally that CCP is getting Money for nothing literally. Here CCP have $1200! It's poor form. If PLEXs can be moved they need to be indestructible meaning they ALWAYS drop. The effect is the same to the dead pilot but it keeps CCP honest. This reeks of shady business practices.. I can see it around the board room now... "Lets introduce PLEXs to be shipped and give them the same drop rate as anything else.. The reward is for every PLEX that gets destroyed, we get money!" It will not be long before WOW and other MMO's introduce EXACTLY the same mechanic in which time in game can be destroyed preventing anyone from using that which they paid the company for in the first place. It's as simple as they are indestructible, they always drop, this doesn't effect the game in any way and everything else can remain the same, the only difference is, it doesn't make CCP look like the incarnation of shady business man. Amarr for Life
uNtOldPAIN Minmatar Covert-Nexus	Posted - 2010.08.09 16:37:00 - [489] Edited by: uNtOldPAIN on 09/08/2010 16:42:29 Originally by: SencneS Edited by: SencneS on 09/08/2010 16:33:01 The only issue I have is literally that CCP is getting Money for nothing literally. Here CCP have $1200! It's poor form. If PLEXs can be moved they need to be indestructible meaning they ALWAYS drop. The effect is the same to the dead pilot but it keeps CCP honest. This reeks of shady business practices.. I can see it around the board room now... "Lets introduce PLEXs to be shipped and give them the same drop rate as anything else.. The reward is for every PLEX that gets destroyed, we get money!" It will not be long before WOW and other MMO's introduce EXACTLY the same mechanic in which time in game can be destroyed preventing anyone from using that which they paid the company for in the first place. It's as simple as they are indestructible, they always drop, this doesn't effect the game in any way and everything else can remain the same, the only difference is, it doesn't make CCP look like the incarnation of shady business man. They wouldn't have got anything if the person would have stayed in dock with the Plexs or thought things through better. Like not doing this in a war-dec(I believe that is what I read). This is a game that you can scam/kill/destroy on and you are worried about how CCP looks. Looks good to me. I'm sure this will be posted on a few sites. People will come...
King Aires Reliables Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.08.09 16:38:00 - [490] So everyone in this thread that approves of what happened then would also approve if CCP just up and said that all PLEX is worthless and no time would be given to those who apply it. Because what your saying is it has no value, that CCP can do what they want, and that they have no obligations in regards to PLEX... Don't even freaking tell me that you guys would not be up in arms over PLEX being deleted. The views expressed above are not those of my corp or an expression of where my corp stands.

Khors Amtek Inc	Posted - 2010.08.09 16:38:00 - [491] Originally by: SencneS The end is nigh! This would pherhaps be true if you were actually forced to undock with a plex to use it.
NeoTheo Dark Materials	Posted - 2010.08.09 16:38:00 - [492] Originally by: SencneS Edited by: SencneS on 09/08/2010 16:33:01 The only issue I have is literally that CCP is getting Money for nothing literally. Here CCP have $1200! It's poor form. If PLEXs can be moved they need to be indestructible meaning they ALWAYS drop. The effect is the same to the dead pilot but it keeps CCP honest. This reeks of shady business practices.. I can see it around the board room now... "Lets introduce PLEXs to be shipped and give them the same drop rate as anything else.. The reward is for every PLEX that gets destroyed, we get money!" It will not be long before WOW and other MMO's introduce EXACTLY the same mechanic in which time in game can be destroyed preventing anyone from using that which they paid the company for in the first place. It's as simple as they are indestructible, they always drop, this doesn't effect the game in any way and everything else can remain the same, the only difference is, it doesn't make CCP look like the incarnation of shady business man. # dont talk arse, CCP sold the a GTC that can be converted in to a plex OR you can use it safely and directly on CCPs website. its your choice. NOT ccps. if you choose to convert to a plex then you choose 2 risks 1 is it goes on the market and never sells . 2 is you put it in your hold and get blown up like a compleate idiot.
Ivon Strom	Posted - 2010.08.09 16:39:00 - [493] Originally by: SencneS Edited by: SencneS on 09/08/2010 16:33:01 The only issue I have is literally that CCP is getting Money for nothing literally. Here CCP have $1200! It's poor form. If PLEXs can be moved they need to be indestructible meaning they ALWAYS drop. The effect is the same to the dead pilot but it keeps CCP honest. This reeks of shady business practices.. I can see it around the board room now... "Lets introduce PLEXs to be shipped and give them the same drop rate as anything else.. The reward is for every PLEX that gets destroyed, we get money!" It will not be long before WOW and other MMO's introduce EXACTLY the same mechanic in which time in game can be destroyed preventing anyone from using that which they paid the company for in the first place. It's as simple as they are indestructible, they always drop, this doesn't effect the game in any way and everything else can remain the same, the only difference is, it doesn't make CCP look like the incarnation of shady business man. Now this...this I can support; Plexs being indestructible and you can't put them in Containers (Station or otherwise). This avoids the daunting task of debugging it so putting a single plex (330million ISK) into a container with say 1 billion isk worth of items would result in the entire container being made 'indestructible'.
Khors Amtek Inc	Posted - 2010.08.09 16:42:00 - [494] Originally by: King Aires So everyone in this thread that approves of what happened then would also approve if CCP just up and said that all PLEX is worthless and no time would be given to those who apply it. Because what your saying is it has no value, that CCP can do what they want, and that they have no obligations in regards to PLEX... Don't even freaking tell me that you guys would not be up in arms over PLEX being deleted. When you undock a ship you financed with isk from a plex, do you whine to ccp if you lose it? Do you claim that the isk you gained from a plex you bought for real life currency is a static value that should always remain in your wallet? When you undock you agree that you may lose your ship. When you do lsoe your ship, it doesn't matter if you are carrying 2 isk worth of tritanium or 22bil worth of plexes. If you buy a plex and want to sell it, or want to use it to extend your game time; don't undock with it.
Obsidian Hawk RONA Legion	Posted - 2010.08.09 16:43:00 - [495] I don't see why anyone is whining other than the victims. Its simple. Players 1- unknown number bought GTC and converted them into plexes. these players sold them to Space monkeys. so original players got their isk already totaling 22 billion. Space monkeys undocked them in a kestral and got shot down. And lost their 22 bill isk. CCP profited off peoples stupidity. Ever hear of an Alt hauling corp guys? EVE ONLINE Helping Prove Darwin 1 epic loss at a time. PS. Hey serpentis smile what are doing friday night? A pretty girl like you shouldnt be hanging around dirty forums like this. I know this nice temperate planet where the beaches are just great!
democrities	Posted - 2010.08.09 16:43:00 - [496] Originally by: Ivon Strom Originally by: SencneS Edited by: SencneS on 09/08/2010 16:33:01 The only issue I have is literally that CCP is getting Money for nothing literally. Here CCP have $1200! It's poor form. If PLEXs can be moved they need to be indestructible meaning they ALWAYS drop. The effect is the same to the dead pilot but it keeps CCP honest. This reeks of shady business practices.. I can see it around the board room now... "Lets introduce PLEXs to be shipped and give them the same drop rate as anything else.. The reward is for every PLEX that gets destroyed, we get money!" It will not be long before WOW and other MMO's introduce EXACTLY the same mechanic in which time in game can be destroyed preventing anyone from using that which they paid the company for in the first place. It's as simple as they are indestructible, they always drop, this doesn't effect the game in any way and everything else can remain the same, the only difference is, it doesn't make CCP look like the incarnation of shady business man. Now this...this I can support; Plexs being indestructible and you can't put them in Containers (Station or otherwise). This avoids the daunting task of debugging it so putting a single plex (330million ISK) into a container with say 1 billion isk worth of items would result in the entire container being made 'indestructible'. Are you people that dense? The whole reason as stated in the dev blog for making PLEXs movable was that they felt a PLEX shouldnt be treated as a special item, but just like any other item. So here you propose, making plex indestructable, thus treating it as a special item, going against the intended purpose of the change in the first place.
Syn Callibri Blacklight Incorporated	Posted - 2010.08.09 16:44:00 - [497] A wise old man once told me..."Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean that you SHOULD do it". ...just saying. Syn Callibri Ilharess to the Scorpion Tribe
uNtOldPAIN Minmatar Covert-Nexus	Posted - 2010.08.09 16:45:00 - [498] Originally by: Ivon Strom Originally by: SencneS Edited by: SencneS on 09/08/2010 16:33:01 The only issue I have is literally that CCP is getting Money for nothing literally. Here CCP have $1200! It's poor form. If PLEXs can be moved they need to be indestructible meaning they ALWAYS drop. The effect is the same to the dead pilot but it keeps CCP honest. This reeks of shady business practices.. I can see it around the board room now... "Lets introduce PLEXs to be shipped and give them the same drop rate as anything else.. The reward is for every PLEX that gets destroyed, we get money!" It will not be long before WOW and other MMO's introduce EXACTLY the same mechanic in which time in game can be destroyed preventing anyone from using that which they paid the company for in the first place. It's as simple as they are indestructible, they always drop, this doesn't effect the game in any way and everything else can remain the same, the only difference is, it doesn't make CCP look like the incarnation of shady business man. Now this...this I can support; Plexs being indestructible and you can't put them in Containers (Station or otherwise). This avoids the daunting task of debugging it so putting a single plex (330million ISK) into a container with say 1 billion isk worth of items would result in the entire container being made 'indestructible'. I want my ship to be "indestructible" too but that isn't gonna happen.
King Aires Reliables Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.08.09 16:54:00 - [499] Originally by: Khors Originally by: King Aires So everyone in this thread that approves of what happened then would also approve if CCP just up and said that all PLEX is worthless and no time would be given to those who apply it. Because what your saying is it has no value, that CCP can do what they want, and that they have no obligations in regards to PLEX... Don't even freaking tell me that you guys would not be up in arms over PLEX being deleted. When you undock a ship you financed with isk from a plex, do you whine to ccp if you lose it? Do you claim that the isk you gained from a plex you bought for real life currency is a static value that should always remain in your wallet? When you undock you agree that you may lose your ship. When you do lsoe your ship, it doesn't matter if you are carrying 2 isk worth of tritanium or 22bil worth of plexes. If you buy a plex and want to sell it, or want to use it to extend your game time; don't undock with it. I said absolutely nothing about ships or undocking. What I said is the simple problem we have here, CCP unilaterally setting up a system of making items worthless. People here just can't seem to realize the difference between PLEX and everything else. You can't mine PLEX, you can't rat for it. PLEX comes into the game through the transformation of RL Cash to GTC to PLEX. It is not a ship. I do not look at the loss of PLEX as an ISK issue, it is a cash issue. You cannot tell me you would be happy if CCP decided to remove all the Machariels from the game either. There was no good reason to make PLEX destroyable other than profit. The views expressed above are not those of my corp or an expression of where my corp stands.
Cailais Amarr THE ORDAINED	Posted - 2010.08.09 17:02:00 - [500] Originally by: democrities Originally by: Ivon Strom Originally by: SencneS Edited by: SencneS on 09/08/2010 16:33:01 The only issue I have is literally that CCP is getting Money for nothing literally. Here CCP have $1200! It's poor form. If PLEXs can be moved they need to be indestructible meaning they ALWAYS drop. The effect is the same to the dead pilot but it keeps CCP honest. This reeks of shady business practices.. I can see it around the board room now... "Lets introduce PLEXs to be shipped and give them the same drop rate as anything else.. The reward is for every PLEX that gets destroyed, we get money!" It will not be long before WOW and other MMO's introduce EXACTLY the same mechanic in which time in game can be destroyed preventing anyone from using that which they paid the company for in the first place. It's as simple as they are indestructible, they always drop, this doesn't effect the game in any way and everything else can remain the same, the only difference is, it doesn't make CCP look like the incarnation of shady business man. Now this...this I can support; Plexs being indestructible and you can't put them in Containers (Station or otherwise). This avoids the daunting task of debugging it so putting a single plex (330million ISK) into a container with say 1 billion isk worth of items would result in the entire container being made 'indestructible'. Are you people that dense? The whole reason as stated in the dev blog for making PLEXs movable was that they felt a PLEX shouldnt be treated as a special item, but just like any other item. So here you propose, making plex indestructable, thus treating it as a special item, going against the intended purpose of the change in the first place. Just a quick observation but if a PLEX is 'just like any other item' why is there a 17 page thread about the loss of 74 of them? Would there be a similar thread if it had been 22billion ISK in modules? For example theres a Nyx currently for sale at 18Bil. How many current GD threads are there about recent Nyx losses? C. the hydrostatic capsule blog

Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2010.08.09 17:05:00 - [501] Originally by: King Aires I do not look at the loss of PLEX as an ISK issue, it is a cash issue. No matter how many times you try and say other wise, at the point someone decided to change a GTC to a Plex, they made the concious decision to create a game item. A Plex never has to leave the station, but CCP have given you the option to do just that. How you move them, is up to you. Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.08.09 17:06:00 - [502] Originally by: Cailais Just a quick observation but if a PLEX is 'just like any other item' why is there a 17 page thread about the loss of 74 of them? Would there be a similar thread if it had been 22billion ISK in modules? For example theres a Nyx currently for sale at 18Bil. How many current GD threads are there about recent Nyx losses? C. Oh thats simple. Fleet fights are still broken so the ones effected by that issue are going balls to the walls to pick out any implyed ccp transgressions and bomb the ever livin ** out of it even if its not even remotely related to fleet fights. Think of it as kind of a fleet fight replacement mechanic to get thier blob fix. Originally by:** Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
Khors Amtek Inc	Posted - 2010.08.09 17:11:00 - [503] Originally by: King Aires I said absolutely nothing about ships or undocking. What I said is the simple problem we have here, CCP unilaterally setting up a system of making items worthless. People here just can't seem to realize the difference between PLEX and everything else. You can't mine PLEX, you can't rat for it. PLEX comes into the game through the transformation of RL Cash to GTC to PLEX. It is not a ship. I do not look at the loss of PLEX as an ISK issue, it is a cash issue. You cannot tell me you would be happy if CCP decided to remove all the Machariels from the game either. There was no good reason to make PLEX destroyable other than profit. You didn't say anything about undocking no, but the fact is, you do never have to undock with a PLEX, unless you want to squeeze some extra isk out of it. It comes down to risk vs. reward as usual. When you convert a GTC to a PLEX, you make it an item like everything else in eve. If you fail to see that, you need to reconcider or just stay away from it. It's not like CCP forced him to undock with the PLEX in his cargo. It's not like they made it so he had an active war with the 0rphanage. It's not like they had a GM popping his ship. All they did was say: You can now undock and move your PLEX around, it's not necessary, but you can. What's your point with the machariels? I'm sorry, did CCP delete his PLEX'es? No, they only setup an fictive environment in which he lost them.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.09 17:13:00 - [504] Originally by: King Aires What I said is the simple problem we have here, CCP unilaterally setting up a system of making items worthless. If by "unilaterally" you mean "only by player choice", then yes. Quote: There was no good reason to make PLEX destroyable other than profit. So why didn't you complain about it when PLEXes were introduced? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp	Posted - 2010.08.09 17:14:00 - [505] Edited by: Sky Marshal on 09/08/2010 17:16:30 Most of the people who agree with the new Plex system, always use the GTC argument to say that the contract is done after redeeming (I disagree but this is not the subject of this post). Maybe... Still, you can buy directly Plexes with RL money, without have to get a GTC, and so without have to redeem a GTC into 2 Plexes. Just check this devblog, or this news, to get a confirmation of it. They can be bought using the Account Management page. They can be redeemed in a station after that, but they are not coming from a GTC. In this case, can we still say that the contract is done ? An another point, it is exasperating to see some players still believe that they are normal items. They are NOT even after the CCP move, as that was explained few pages ago. This quote is a reminder : Originally by: Brannor McThife First off, the pilot was rather silly...but that's another discussion. Sky Marshal earlier raised a valid point in that PLEX is not "like any other ingame item". Any item that you can buy with ISK comes from NPCs or from production of items from blueprints, loot drops, etc. I've never heard of a PLEX entering the game via NPCs or via mining - imagine the scene, popping a roid and there lies a golden can of plex... ) So, they are unique in the properties they have - the sole legal way of purchasing ingame value for RL cash. To make it truly like other items, and not a special case, two things need to happen: 1) PLEX needs to be seeded, however rarely, into the game as a item drop, or heaven forbid, something that can be manufactured from BPO / BPC - yes, the mineral / item requirements can add up to rough market value of 300mil ISK. 2) The EvE store needs to be expanded and allow you to purchase actual ingame items. So if I'm stuck in deep 0.0 without a decent ship, I should be able to login to the store quick and purchase a carrier or even a Titan and buy it with RL money. After all, and please get this point - if a PLEX is not special, then all other items should exude the same/similar properties as PLEX. It is not a mono-directional relationship. Anyway. As said before. Until PLEX becomes a true ingame item whose only entry point into the game is not only to magically spawn in your hangar, it is a special case item, unique in its properties. Note, at no point did I say that CCP is being underhanded, etc. I am merely saying that they need to follow through on their "It's not a special case item" and actually make it so. That is all. -G _______ With the NGE, I'm sorry about the mistake we made. We screwed up and didn't listen to the fans when we should have. - John Smedley, CEO of Sony Online Entertainment
Ivon Strom Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2010.08.09 17:17:00 - [506] Originally by: democrities Originally by: Ivon Strom Originally by: SencneS Edited by: SencneS on 09/08/2010 16:33:01 The only issue I have is literally that CCP is getting Money for nothing literally. Here CCP have $1200! It's poor form. If PLEXs can be moved they need to be indestructible meaning they ALWAYS drop. The effect is the same to the dead pilot but it keeps CCP honest. This reeks of shady business practices.. I can see it around the board room now... "Lets introduce PLEXs to be shipped and give them the same drop rate as anything else.. The reward is for every PLEX that gets destroyed, we get money!" It will not be long before WOW and other MMO's introduce EXACTLY the same mechanic in which time in game can be destroyed preventing anyone from using that which they paid the company for in the first place. It's as simple as they are indestructible, they always drop, this doesn't effect the game in any way and everything else can remain the same, the only difference is, it doesn't make CCP look like the incarnation of shady business man. Now this...this I can support; Plexs being indestructible and you can't put them in Containers (Station or otherwise). This avoids the daunting task of debugging it so putting a single plex (330million ISK) into a container with say 1 billion isk worth of items would result in the entire container being made 'indestructible'. Are you people that dense? The whole reason as stated in the dev blog for making PLEXs movable was that they felt a PLEX shouldnt be treated as a special item, but just like any other item. So here you propose, making plex indestructable, thus treating it as a special item, going against the intended purpose of the change in the first place. No, but the thought of Plexs having a 100% chance to drop is nice to dream about :P
democrities	Posted - 2010.08.09 17:19:00 - [507] Originally by: Cailais Originally by: democrities Originally by: Ivon Strom Originally by: SencneS Edited by: SencneS on 09/08/2010 16:33:01 The only issue I have is literally that CCP is getting Money for nothing literally. Here CCP have $1200! It's poor form. If PLEXs can be moved they need to be indestructible meaning they ALWAYS drop. The effect is the same to the dead pilot but it keeps CCP honest. This reeks of shady business practices.. I can see it around the board room now... "Lets introduce PLEXs to be shipped and give them the same drop rate as anything else.. The reward is for every PLEX that gets destroyed, we get money!" It will not be long before WOW and other MMO's introduce EXACTLY the same mechanic in which time in game can be destroyed preventing anyone from using that which they paid the company for in the first place. It's as simple as they are indestructible, they always drop, this doesn't effect the game in any way and everything else can remain the same, the only difference is, it doesn't make CCP look like the incarnation of shady business man. Now this...this I can support; Plexs being indestructible and you can't put them in Containers (Station or otherwise). This avoids the daunting task of debugging it so putting a single plex (330million ISK) into a container with say 1 billion isk worth of items would result in the entire container being made 'indestructible'. Are you people that dense? The whole reason as stated in the dev blog for making PLEXs movable was that they felt a PLEX shouldnt be treated as a special item, but just like any other item. So here you propose, making plex indestructable, thus treating it as a special item, going against the intended purpose of the change in the first place. Just a quick observation but if a PLEX is 'just like any other item' why is there a 17 page thread about the loss of 74 of them? Would there be a similar thread if it had been 22billion ISK in modules? For example theres a Nyx currently for sale at 18Bil. How many current GD threads are there about recent Nyx losses? C. Really? So I guess the big thread last month about the Orphanages 18 bil hauler kill was a figment of my imagination.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.08.09 17:20:00 - [508] Originally by: Ivon Strom No, but the thought of Plexs having a 100% chance to drop is nice to dream about :P And here kids is the real motivation for introducing indesctuctable plex. Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.08.09 17:23:00 - [509] Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Ivon Strom No, but the thought of Plexs having a 100% chance to drop is nice to dream about :P And here kids is the real motivation for introducing indesctuctable plex. So then what happens when the can they are in gets popped? Another can magically appears? Perhaps they should automatically go into the hangar of the person that lays the final blow?
Culmen Caldari Blood Phage Syndicate Dead Terrorists	Posted - 2010.08.09 17:25:00 - [510] Originally by: King Aires I said absolutely nothing about ships or undocking. What I said is the simple problem we have here, CCP unilaterally setting up a system of making items worthless. People here just can't seem to realize the difference between PLEX and everything else. You can't mine PLEX, you can't rat for it. PLEX comes into the game through the transformation of RL Cash to GTC to PLEX. It is not a ship. I do not look at the loss of PLEX as an ISK issue, it is a cash issue. You cannot tell me you would be happy if CCP decided to remove all the Machariels from the game either. There was no good reason to make PLEX destroyable other than profit. CCP has always had a system where you could make a PLEX worthless, Right Click -> Trash It. If you treated a plex like it was before and never undocked with one, you can still use it just as well as if you did. If CCP removed the ability to activate a PLEX from ANYWHERE in the universe, then I'd be up in arms. But I'm not going to be ****ed if someone right click->trashed a stack of PLEXs. Like wise, if he was dumb enough to undock a defenseless ship with war-targets in system. and further more why do i even need a sig?

Ivon Strom Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2010.08.09 17:29:00 - [511] Originally by: Breaker77 Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Ivon Strom No, but the thought of Plexs having a 100% chance to drop is nice to dream about :P And here kids is the real motivation for introducing indesctuctable plex. So then what happens when the can they are in gets popped? Another can magically appears? Perhaps they should automatically go into the hangar of the person that lays the final blow? Already stated that they couldn't be placed into Containers of any type (Station, Secure, Jets, etc). ....mmm....22billion; I could buy a lot of Prostitutes and Quafe with that
0oO0oOoOo0o	Posted - 2010.08.09 17:41:00 - [512] Originally by: Culmen CCP has always had a system where you could make a PLEX worthless, Right Click -> Trash It. ... But I'm not going to be ****ed if someone right click->trashed a stack of PLEXs. Like wise, if he was dumb enough to undock a defenseless ship with war-targets in system. Trashing it yourself is completely different from if someone else trashes it or takes it away from you. If you deliberately and in full consciousness destroy your assets, you are free to do so. If someone else takes it from you without your consent, it's theft. If he takes it by deception, it's fraud. If he takes it with violence, it's robbery and so on. You can't treat trashing and theft/fraud/robbery likewise even if the result for you is the same.
uNtOldPAIN Minmatar Covert-Nexus	Posted - 2010.08.09 17:42:00 - [513] Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o Originally by: Culmen CCP has always had a system where you could make a PLEX worthless, Right Click -> Trash It. ... But I'm not going to be ****ed if someone right click->trashed a stack of PLEXs. Like wise, if he was dumb enough to undock a defenseless ship with war-targets in system. Trashing it yourself is completely different from if someone else trashes it or takes it away from you. If you deliberately and in full consciousness destroy your assets, you are free to do so. If someone else takes it from you without your consent, it's theft. If he takes it by deception, it's fraud. If he takes it with violence, it's robbery and so on. You can't treat trashing and theft/fraud/robbery likewise even if the result for you is the same. theft/fraud/robbery is allowed in this game... NEXT!
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.08.09 17:44:00 - [514] Originally by: Ivon Strom Already stated that they couldn't be placed into Containers of any type (Station, Secure, Jets, etc). So then if PLEXes are movable and the ship gets popped where do they go? Last time I checked a ship left behind a can if any items it had dropped. So I'll ask again... What would happen to the can if it was popped to keep people from looting the wreck?
ShadowandLight Amarr Doom Guard Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.08.09 17:46:00 - [515] Originally by: Breaker77 Originally by: Ivon Strom Already stated that they couldn't be placed into Containers of any type (Station, Secure, Jets, etc). So then if PLEXes are movable and the ship gets popped where do they go? Last time I checked a ship left behind a can if any items it had dropped. So I'll ask again... What would happen to the can if it was popped to keep people from looting the wreck? CCP has a chance formula that rolls the dice to see if an item is dropped or not. Since this was one large stack of plexs, either they all drop or none do. ------- "The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1 Hoist the Colors!
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.08.09 17:49:00 - [516] Originally by: ShadowandLight CCP has a chance formula that rolls the dice to see if an item is dropped or not. Since this was one large stack of plexs, either they all drop or none do. My question was in regards to PLEX being indestructable. If they were indestructable and the can from a blown up ship was popped, what happens to them? Would the can magically respawn? Would it magically appear in some distant hangar? This is why indestructable items couldn't be ingame.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.09 17:52:00 - [517] Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o Trashing it yourself is completely different from if someone else trashes it or takes it away from you. If you deliberately and in full consciousness destroy your assets, you are free to do so. If you deliberately and in full conciousness put your assets into a ship that can be destroyed, you are free to do so. Quote: If someone else takes it from you without your consent, You consented when you undocked. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Ivon Strom Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2010.08.09 17:57:00 - [518] Originally by: Breaker77 Originally by: Ivon Strom Already stated that they couldn't be placed into Containers of any type (Station, Secure, Jets, etc). So then if PLEXes are movable and the ship gets popped where do they go? Last time I checked a ship left behind a can if any items it had dropped. So I'll ask again... What would happen to the can if it was popped to keep people from looting the wreck? Well I of course the exception would be the loot-cans dropped by destroyed ships. But once removed they couldn't be put back in. So I guess the catch-all would be players couldn't put them into cans (but the game could).
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.08.09 17:58:00 - [519] Originally by: Ivon Strom Well I of course the exception would be the loot-cans dropped by destroyed ships. But once removed they couldn't be put back in. So I guess the catch-all would be players couldn't put them into cans (but the game could). What happens to the PLEXes when that can is targeted and blown up?
uNtOldPAIN Minmatar Covert-Nexus	Posted - 2010.08.09 18:04:00 - [520] Edited by: uNtOldPAIN on 09/08/2010 18:04:01 Originally by: Breaker77 Originally by: Ivon Strom Well I of course the exception would be the loot-cans dropped by destroyed ships. But once removed they couldn't be put back in. So I guess the catch-all would be players couldn't put them into cans (but the game could). What happens to the PLEXes when that can is targeted and blown up? Depends. Did you undock for the station with them in your cargo hold? Ill stop there and let you figure it out.

Ivon Strom Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2010.08.09 18:12:00 - [521] Originally by: Breaker77 Originally by: Ivon Strom Well I of course the exception would be the loot-cans dropped by destroyed ships. But once removed they couldn't be put back in. So I guess the catch-all would be players couldn't put them into cans (but the game could). What happens to the PLEXes when that can is targeted and blown up? Okay...Plexs could go into a separate loot-can that doesn't allow you to attack it, think targeting a Planet; you don't have the option to attack it.
Sadian	Posted - 2010.08.09 18:13:00 - [522] It would have been a better story if it had been a newbie frigate. How much rl money/time is lost when a Titan goes down? Sad
IDieAlotInGateCamps	Posted - 2010.08.09 18:14:00 - [523] tinfoil hat warning So I've got a question. What's keeping, let's say, a CCP dev/gm alt from actually "buying" said Plex(s) and accidentally it/them? Wouldn't CCP in practice destroying the item that allows access to service they were paid to deliver, thus, making a profit? tinfoil hat warning: all clear
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.08.09 18:15:00 - [524] Edited by: Breaker77 on 09/08/2010 18:16:47 Originally by: Ivon Strom Okay...Plexs could go into a separate loot-can that doesn't allow you to attack it, think targeting a Planet; you don't have the option to attack it. Something else to introduce new bugs Originally by: Sadian How much rl money/time is lost when a Titan goes down? 3 times that for the hull, plus fittings. Originally by: IDieAlotInGateCamps What's keeping, let's say, a CCP dev/gm alt from actually "buying" said Plex(s) and accidentally it/them? Massive influx of ISK into the game which would cause inflation as ISK is worth less. Prices would increase on everything if enough of them were removed this way.
Cinster	Posted - 2010.08.09 18:21:00 - [525] people in eve lose stuff everyday for the stupidest of reasons and somebody will profit from it. If you are stupid enough to undock with PLEX in your cargohold then you deserve what's coming. There is absolutly no reason why you should have to undock with a plex in your cargohold.
Zief	Posted - 2010.08.09 18:22:00 - [526] Probably this has been discussed in the previous pages but I'll toss in my two cents anyway... No matter how many people play eve for "free" by buying a plex in game CCP's profits remain unchanged right? Every plex in the game has to be paid for by real dollars from someone so it's no skin of their nose. Eve supposedly has over 300,000 subscribers, at $15 a pop thats $4.5 million a month. Does anyone REALLY thing that the cost of 75 PLEXs, about $1100 is a big deal to them? No doubt they thought about it, but I'd guess that it's more of a way to siphon isk out of the market to fight in game inflation.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.08.09 18:24:00 - [527] Originally by: Zief No doubt they thought about it, but I'd guess that it's more of a way to siphon isk out of the market to fight in game inflation. You do know that when you buy a PLEX the ISK goes to another player and stays in the game right? It doesn't go to CCP and get removed like office rentals or CSPA charges.
Amberlamps	Posted - 2010.08.09 18:26:00 - [528] Seems a little unfair. However if they're doing this can they please eliminate gatebombing in low sec.
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2010.08.09 18:29:00 - [529] Originally by: IDieAlotInGateCamps tinfoil hat warning So I've got a question. What's keeping, let's say, a CCP dev/gm alt from actually "buying" said Plex(s) and accidentally it/them? Wouldn't CCP in practice destroying the item that allows access to service they were paid to deliver, thus, making a profit? tinfoil hat warning: all clear Wont happen for a few reasons. First, CCP already makes a profit no matter what happens and there would be a severe backlash, if they got caught meddling in these things. They are already in a good position and have little to gain by getting involved. Second, there is an infinite supply of stupidity available in the world, as this thread has once again proven. There really is no need for CCP to do anything extra, since the players in their infinite stupidity will do all the dirty work for them and the killers will both enjoy it and froth at the mouth for even at the opportunity to do so.
Ivon Strom Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2010.08.09 18:31:00 - [530] Originally by: Breaker77 Originally by: Zief No doubt they thought about it, but I'd guess that it's more of a way to siphon isk out of the market to fight in game inflation. You do know that when you buy a PLEX the ISK goes to another player and stays in the game right? It doesn't go to CCP and get removed like office rentals or CSPA charges. There's the tax.

uNtOldPAIN Minmatar Covert-Nexus	Posted - 2010.08.09 18:51:00 - [531] Originally by: Breaker77 Originally by: Zief No doubt they thought about it, but I'd guess that it's more of a way to siphon isk out of the market to fight in game inflation. You do know that when you buy a PLEX the ISK goes to another player and stays in the game right? It doesn't go to CCP and get removed like office rentals or CSPA charges. It gets used up one way or another. In this case. It got used really quick.
Urgg Boolean	Posted - 2010.08.09 19:40:00 - [532] Edited by: Urgg Boolean on 09/08/2010 19:43:35 I read much (not all) of the dialog in this thread, but I did not see any reference to the term "conflict of interest". CCP has created a conflict of interest by allowing PLEX to be shuttled in-game. This is real money we are talking about, not in-game resource earned via game play, and they have created a game mechanic to destroy an item acquired via a real money transaction. They can now sell game time without having to deliver some percentage of the time. Like it or not, we got movable PLEX. So with this conflict of interest present in the game, you'd have to have haggis for brains if you undock with PLEX in your cargo bay ... P.S. This is exactly the kind of issue that Americans sue over.
Illwill Bill Raven Dynasty Reloaded LLC	Posted - 2010.08.09 20:01:00 - [533] Originally by: Urgg Boolean P.S. This is exactly the kind of issue that Americans sue over. Good thing CCP ain't American.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.08.09 20:02:00 - [534] Originally by: Illwill Bill Originally by: Urgg Boolean P.S. This is exactly the kind of issue that Americans sue over. Good thing CCP ain't American. But they have an office in the US, so they have to conform to the law here. Which I'm willing to bet they consulted with various lawyers before making it so that idiots could lose 74 of them at once.
Alexandria Ekibe Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2010.08.09 20:26:00 - [535] I know that I'm very new to the game, but even I wouldn't leave with PLEX in my inventory. I've personally purchased 60-day GTC and converted it to plex, I sold one for some startup ISK and am keeping the other until I need to apply it to my game time. That said, I am not yelling at CCP that the ship I bought with plex blew up. Why would I? Everyone in this game is told pretty much from day 1, don't fly in or with anything you can't afford to replace. This is no different.
Sneaky Neko Caldari Deep Space Ventures Reckoning.	Posted - 2010.08.09 20:39:00 - [536] Edited by: Sneaky Neko on 09/08/2010 20:39:39 If you enjoy playing EVE then why are you complaining about CCP getting a bit of extra money that they can use to further improve the game that we're all here to play. The money was handed over fare and square, it's not CCP's fault that some people don't have 2 brain cells to rub together. If you don't enjoy playing eve then why are you here? Go play something else.
Galacticaboom Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2010.08.09 20:42:00 - [537] Edited by: Galacticaboom on 09/08/2010 20:44:01 Edited by: Galacticaboom on 09/08/2010 20:42:26 http://mofo.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=7309710 Again CCP finds yet another way to screw over its players, GREAT JOB keep screwing us over and see how much more hostile the player base gets. No sane person would do this, and pretty sure ccp is behind this. No one is THAT stupid to leave with that many plexs. I mean Seriously NONE of these dropped THATS TOTAL BS and everyone should be screaming about this.
stevieisbest Caldari Pilots Of Honour Aeternus.	Posted - 2010.08.09 20:49:00 - [538] Hopefully all that extra cash CCP just pulled in this month goes towards fixing the fleet fight lag.
Raquel Trotter Trotters Independent Trading	Posted - 2010.08.09 21:03:00 - [539] Edited by: Raquel Trotter on 09/08/2010 21:03:56 The massively article on this just got slashdotted.. The comments make pretty funny reading : http://games.slashdot.org/story/10/08/09/197219/EVE-Player-Loses-1200-Worth-of-Game-Time-In-Game
King Aires Reliables Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.08.09 21:14:00 - [540] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: King Aires What I said is the simple problem we have here, CCP unilaterally setting up a system of making items worthless. If by "unilaterally" you mean "only by player choice", then yes. Quote: There was no good reason to make PLEX destroyable other than profit. So why didn't you complain about it when PLEXes were introduced? Yeah I did complain about it when the idea was introduced, I have just decided to man up and use my main this time. I do not think PLEX should be in the game at all, there was nothing at all wrong with the GTC trading forum, nothing wrong with the way GTC runs. But if CCP insists on having PLEX then it should be a non-destructible item simply due to the conflict of interest. There is a foul fish smell when one thinks about the hundreds of PLEX that will end up popped, the gut feeling is this is no good. The views expressed above are not those of my corp or an expression of where my corp stands.

Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.09 21:20:00 - [541] Originally by: Galacticaboom Again CCP finds yet another way to screw over its players, GREAT JOB keep screwing us over and see how much more hostile the player base gets. The only one screwing people over is aystra, and I must say, the hostility seems to be minor. Quote: No sane person would do this, and pretty sure ccp is behind this. No one is THAT stupid to leave with that many plexs. You've never been to Jita, have youà Quote: I mean Seriously NONE of these dropped THATS TOTAL BS and everyone should be screaming about this. RNG is a harsh mistress. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
rootimus maximus Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2010.08.09 21:49:00 - [542] Originally by: Jaqel Broadside The whole point about risk and stuff is irrelevant,,, the contract is a RL legal document. CCP cannot destroy that contract through a fictional game mechanic actioned by a third party. Imagine if someone could turn off your water supply, electricity, phone etc via a 3rd party computer mechanic. I think I see your mistake. You and I have a contract, whereby you give me your car and I give you cash in consideration. You then take that cash and buy an expensive watch. A mugger sees the watch and ganks you for it. What you're arguing is that it's my fault you lost your watch. After all, you used the consideration you received in our contract DIRECTLY for something else, which you then lost. Can you see where you're going wrong, now?
Barakkus Caelestis Iudicium	Posted - 2010.08.09 22:32:00 - [543] Originally by: rootimus maximus Originally by: Jaqel Broadside The whole point about risk and stuff is irrelevant,,, the contract is a RL legal document. CCP cannot destroy that contract through a fictional game mechanic actioned by a third party. Imagine if someone could turn off your water supply, electricity, phone etc via a 3rd party computer mechanic. I think I see your mistake. You and I have a contract, whereby you give me your car and I give you cash in consideration. You then take that cash and buy an expensive watch. A mugger sees the watch and ganks you for it. What you're arguing is that it's my fault you lost your watch. After all, you used the consideration you received in our contract DIRECTLY for something else, which you then lost. Can you see where you're going wrong, now? This kinda sums it up tbh. Originally by: CCP Dropbear rofl edit: ah crap, dev account. Oh well, official rofl at you sir.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2010.08.09 23:06:00 - [544] And time after time, people keep missing the fact that risking your PLEXes is *voluntary. CCP is not taking* anything from anyone, they are *allowing* players to choose to do risky things with their PLEXes. Let us review: Pre-change: PLEXes can not be moved, and must be traded/used/etc in the station where the GTC is converted to PLEXes. Post-change: PLEXes can still be used *exactly as before* by those who wish to do so, but now additional (riskier) options exist for those who wish to use them. Nothing has been lost. Whining about the change is just **ing stupid, since it is a pure gain for the players. If you don't like the idea of losing a PLEX, don't use the new features. Pretend the change never happened, follow all of the old rules, and it has zero effect on you. And honestly, the idea that this is all a conspiracy by CCP to get more profit is just **ing stupid as well. The vast majority of PLEXes will be used 100% safely in station, and the vast majority of people who decide to move them will do so using the standard near-invulnerable methods for moving small high-value cargo. The total "value" of PLEXes lost by idiots who are too stupid to know how to move them safely is an absurdly tiny number compared to CCP's total subscription cost. As a profit-making scheme, the PLEX changes are laughably ineffective. -----------
WhiteSavage Gallente Ever Flow Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.10 00:04:00 - [545] Originally by: Merin Ryskin And honestly, the idea that this is all a conspiracy by CCP to get more profit is just ****ing stupid as well. The vast majority of PLEXes will be used 100% safely in station, and the vast majority of people who decide to move them will do so using the standard near-invulnerable methods for moving small high-value cargo. The total "value" of PLEXes lost by idiots who are too stupid to know how to move them safely is an absurdly tiny number compared to CCP's total subscription cost. As a profit-making scheme, the PLEX changes are laughably ineffective. Oh so CCP really makes no money off this at all says the guy posting in a thread where someone just lost over a grand of rl money or 6 years of eve subscriptions. Although you are an incredibly mundane CCP alt... humor us please. Back up your scribble-scrabble of words and explain to us how this is NOT a profit making scheme. The game is broken in a million different places. So many things are overpowered, so many under. Everything is unfinished. So in what train of thought did CCP create this feature Merin Ryskin? Love of trees? Respect of young children? They did this to make a quick buck off the mistakes of others. Preaching anything otherwise is a huge leap of conscience and a foolish one at that.
WhiteSavage Gallente Ever Flow Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.10 00:08:00 - [546] Originally by: rootimus maximus Originally by: Jaqel Broadside The whole point about risk and stuff is irrelevant,,, the contract is a RL legal document. CCP cannot destroy that contract through a fictional game mechanic actioned by a third party. Imagine if someone could turn off your water supply, electricity, phone etc via a 3rd party computer mechanic. I think I see your mistake. You and I have a contract, whereby you give me your car and I give you cash in consideration. You then take that cash and buy an expensive watch. A mugger sees the watch and ganks you for it. What you're arguing is that it's my fault you lost your watch. After all, you used the consideration you received in our contract DIRECTLY for something else, which you then lost. Can you see where you're going wrong, now? Except mugging is illegal and expensive watches have insurance. I literally grabbed a guy about a month ago that stole a checkbook and gave it back to the owner. We live in a world of credibility where people are responsible for their actions. EVE is neither. That is where your line of reasoning fails. Oh and post with a main?
Doctor Ungabungas Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.08.10 00:09:00 - [547] Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o The contractual obligation represented by the PLEX is not an attribute of your account or object Can you show us a copy of this contract? We really need to see the contract that you and CCP agreed to before we can comment further.
rootimus maximus Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2010.08.10 00:11:00 - [548] Originally by: WhiteSavage Except mugging is illegal and expensive watches have insurance. I literally grabbed a guy about a month ago that stole a checkbook and gave it back to the owner. We live in a world of credibility where people are responsible for their actions. EVE is neither. That is where your line of reasoning fails. My line of reasoning doesn't fail - whatever he does with what he gets out of the contract is entirely up to him. Any consequences of his actions are not my fault. Originally by: WhiteSavage Oh and post with a main? Why? So you can bring all your aliance buddies to pod me in my small, harmless corp? Did my post upset you that much?
Xereyn	Posted - 2010.08.10 00:17:00 - [549] Originally by: WhiteSavage Originally by: rootimus maximus Originally by: Jaqel Broadside The whole point about risk and stuff is irrelevant,,, the contract is a RL legal document. CCP cannot destroy that contract through a fictional game mechanic actioned by a third party. Imagine if someone could turn off your water supply, electricity, phone etc via a 3rd party computer mechanic. I think I see your mistake. You and I have a contract, whereby you give me your car and I give you cash in consideration. You then take that cash and buy an expensive watch. A mugger sees the watch and ganks you for it. What you're arguing is that it's my fault you lost your watch. After all, you used the consideration you received in our contract DIRECTLY for something else, which you then lost. Can you see where you're going wrong, now? Except mugging is illegal and expensive watches have insurance. I literally grabbed a guy about a month ago that stole a checkbook and gave it back to the owner. We live in a world of credibility where people are responsible for their actions. EVE is neither. That is where your line of reasoning fails. Oh and post with a main? In real life, many things are illegal: fraud, theft, assault, destruction of property. In EVE, anyone can undertake any of these activities at whim. Welcome to EVE, now HTFU, and don't undock with anything you can't afford to lose, and don't carry valuable cargo into the most crowded system in New Eden during an active war declaration in an untanked T1 frigate. EVE: a cold, harsh universe. Stupidity has consequences. Essentially, you people are arguing that there should be exceptions to THAT. Go play Farmville. It's clearly your kind of MMO.
King Aires Reliables Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.08.10 00:38:00 - [550] Buy Plex Directly from CCP Thats PLEX folks, not GTC, no step required, you enter into a contract with CCP that states for 34.99 you are given 2x 30 day pilot licenses worth 30 days game time. Direct from CCP. No extra step required. From the Support page for PLEX: Quote: PLEX is for everyone. PLEX can be used by players regardless of the type of account they have. When you activate a PLEX, the extra time is added to your account immediately. In this respect, PLEX works exactly like a prepaid gamecard. That term, Prepaid Gamecard... you know any other prepaid game cards where someone on the street can come, punch you in the face and steal or destroy? Nope, neither do I. Quote: Please note: The Pilotæs Licenses (PLEX) are just like all other in-game items. They are traded on the market, bought and sold, and it is therefore inevitable that some people will profit from them and some people will not. As is the fact with all in-game items, you need to be careful about not being äscammedô, i.e. swindled by other players trying to take advantage of you. This is easily avoidable by checking carefully the prices, both when you buy and sell, and by checking the description and quantity of the contracts. Please also note that PLEX cannot be moved between stations, and you cannot undock with a PLEX in your cargohold. Again on the support page, incorrect information. I know everyone here keeps saying do not be stupid, do not undock. But what about the new guy, the just starting out person who comes to eve and after reading the support pages, follows CCP's instructions loses his PLEX in his ship. That is just wrong. The most wrong about this is, every PLEX that is lost, is $17.49 off CCP's liabilities. They directly profit from griefing activities. But you all just think it is cool that you get to violence people, you do not care about the bigger picture. The views expressed above are not those of my corp or an expression of where my corp stands.

WhiteSavage Gallente Ever Flow Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.10 00:42:00 - [551] Originally by: rootimus maximus Originally by: WhiteSavage Except mugging is illegal and expensive watches have insurance. I literally grabbed a guy about a month ago that stole a checkbook and gave it back to the owner. We live in a world of credibility where people are responsible for their actions. EVE is neither. That is where your line of reasoning fails. My line of reasoning doesn't fail - whatever he does with what he gets out of the contract is entirely up to him. Any consequences of his actions are not my fault. Awesome. I explain to you why you're wrong and instead of a counter-point you say "nuh-uh!!" lol. The argument here has nothing to do with legal obligations or life choices. The argument here is that CCP is going too far. DO you understand that in your own illustration, CCP is the real mugger? YOu understand that concept right? The suicide ganker in jita gets the km, and anything that drops. But no matter what happens its CCP that makes the real dollars every time that happens. THEY are in a sense mugging YOU.
Karen Maginnis	Posted - 2010.08.10 00:45:00 - [552] Originally by: WhiteSavage Originally by: rootimus maximus Originally by: WhiteSavage Except mugging is illegal and expensive watches have insurance. I literally grabbed a guy about a month ago that stole a checkbook and gave it back to the owner. We live in a world of credibility where people are responsible for their actions. EVE is neither. That is where your line of reasoning fails. My line of reasoning doesn't fail - whatever he does with what he gets out of the contract is entirely up to him. Any consequences of his actions are not my fault. Awesome. I explain to you why you're wrong and instead of a counter-point you say "nuh-uh!!" lol. The argument here has nothing to do with legal obligations or life choices. The argument here is that CCP is going too far. DO you understand that in your own illustration, CCP is the real mugger? YOu understand that concept right? The suicide ganker in jita gets the km, and anything that drops. But no matter what happens its CCP that makes the real dollars every time that happens. THEY are in a sense mugging YOU. THIS! SAY NO TO CCP STEALING THROUGH PLEX DESTRUCTION!
WhiteSavage Gallente Ever Flow Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.10 00:46:00 - [553] Originally by: Xereyn Originally by: WhiteSavage Originally by: rootimus maximus Originally by: Jaqel Broadside The whole point about risk and stuff is irrelevant,,, the contract is a RL legal document. CCP cannot destroy that contract through a fictional game mechanic actioned by a third party. Imagine if someone could turn off your water supply, electricity, phone etc via a 3rd party computer mechanic. I think I see your mistake. You and I have a contract, whereby you give me your car and I give you cash in consideration. You then take that cash and buy an expensive watch. A mugger sees the watch and ganks you for it. What you're arguing is that it's my fault you lost your watch. After all, you used the consideration you received in our contract DIRECTLY for something else, which you then lost. Can you see where you're going wrong, now? Except mugging is illegal and expensive watches have insurance. I literally grabbed a guy about a month ago that stole a checkbook and gave it back to the owner. We live in a world of credibility where people are responsible for their actions. EVE is neither. That is where your line of reasoning fails. Oh and post with a main? In real life, many things are illegal: fraud, theft, assault, destruction of property. In EVE, anyone can undertake any of these activities at whim. Welcome to EVE, now HTFU, and don't undock with anything you can't afford to lose, and don't carry valuable cargo into the most crowded system in New Eden during an active war declaration in an untanked T1 frigate. EVE: a cold, harsh universe. Stupidity has consequences. Essentially, you people are arguing that there should be exceptions to THAT. Go play Farmville. It's clearly your kind of MMO. What a flailing childish argument of a simpleton. With that line of reasoning murder and baby-**** should be legal. After all the world is an unfair place. And that baby shouldn't have been hanging out in that crib with the door unlocked. My god sir go back to your CCP desk login another account and try again.
rootimus maximus Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2010.08.10 00:47:00 - [554] Originally by: WhiteSavage <snip> I think you're missing the point that the chap who got ganked was incredibly foolish for undocking with PLEXs in his cargohold. CCP have done two things with the recent change: 1) given players the opportunity to take a significant risk by buying PLEXs and then shipping them to other regions in order to make a profit and 2) allowed foolish people to help generate highly amusing killmails.
King Aires Reliables Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.08.10 00:51:00 - [555] Originally by: rootimus maximus Originally by: WhiteSavage <snip> I think you're missing the point that the chap who got ganked was incredibly foolish for undocking with PLEXs in his cargohold. CCP have done two things with the recent change: 1) given players the opportunity to take a significant risk by buying PLEXs and then shipping them to other regions in order to make a profit and 2) allowed foolish people to help generate highly amusing killmails. I dont think people have nearly as much a problem with the ganking, as they do the fact the PLEX were destroyed! At least if they dropped all the time CCP would still have to honor the time, with them being destroyed CCP laughs at us all. The views expressed above are not those of my corp or an expression of where my corp stands.
WhiteSavage Gallente Ever Flow Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.10 00:54:00 - [556] Originally by: rootimus maximus Originally by: WhiteSavage <snip> I think you're missing the point that the chap who got ganked was incredibly foolish for undocking with PLEXs in his cargohold. CCP have done two things with the recent change: 1) given players the opportunity to take a significant risk by buying PLEXs and then shipping them to other regions in order to make a profit and 2) allowed foolish people to help generate highly amusing killmails. 1. People already had the ability to go to another region and sell the plexes there. SO... no real change. 2. amusing killmails is hardly a feature-point in this issue... and if this was their true underlying purpose there might be other ways to do so. 3. Profit every time this happens. You keep skipping this incredibly important feature. WHy? Do you deny that CCP profits quite well off this change or do you deny it had any to do with their decision? I think your missing the point that your arguement of "stupid people deserve it haha" is invalid. As iv'e pointed out before... Everybody makes mistakes. Some are brighter then others. That can mean that other players profit... but that should NOT mean that CCP profits off an in-game mistake. THAT is ridiculous.
rootimus maximus Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2010.08.10 00:59:00 - [557] Edited by: rootimus maximus on 10/08/2010 00:59:11 Originally by: WhiteSavage 2. amusing killmails is hardly a feature-point in this issue They're certainly a feature of Eve. Fun, even when I'm the poor bugger on the receiving end. :) Originally by: WhiteSavage 3. Profit every time this happens. You keep skipping this incredibly important feature. WHy? Do you deny that CCP profits quite well off this change or do you deny it had any to do with their decision? I'm not denying anything, I just don't care. Some people complain about stuff in this game because we enjoy it and want it to be better, other people complain because they're whining little muppets. The latter will always complain here, in hello kitty online and in real life. For the most part, they seem to be the people complaining about PLEXs at the moment. Originally by: WhiteSavage I think your missing the point that your arguement of "stupid people deserve it haha" I didn't call anyone stupid. Not even forum trolls, like your good self.
Barakkus Caelestis Iudicium	Posted - 2010.08.10 01:04:00 - [558] It's the same thing as buying some gtcs, selling 22 bil worth, buying a bunch of blueprints totalling 22 bil and undocking with them, he blew it all either way. I don't think he was going to apply 6 years of game time to his account, more likely going to try and make a few bil selling them. So, in essence, it was just **ed away in a different form, the result is the same in the end. Originally by:** CCP Dropbear rofl edit: ah crap, dev account. Oh well, official rofl at you sir.
Xul Daethreen	Posted - 2010.08.10 01:05:00 - [559] I don't see anyone denying that the changes show greed on CCP's part. What everyone is arguing, is that if you choose to take these risks, to give people a chance to kill you, destroy those plexes, and provide profits for CCP, then IT'S YOUR OWN CHOICE. No one is forcing you to undock with PLEX in your cargo. No one is forcing you to move them or risk them. It is a CHOICE that you are allowed, and like most choices, both in Eve and life, there are consequences. You call CCP the muggers, but how can that be? Are they forcing you to undock with PLEX, did they change PLEX so that you have to move them around to use them? No they have not. Eve is a harsh cruel VIRTUAL world, and though it has parallels to real life, it is NOT real life. Just because suicide ganking is almost consequence free, it doesn't mean you can go around mugging people in Times Square without penalty. If people choose to give CCP more money, then I say let them.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.10 01:07:00 - [560] Edited by: Tippia on 10/08/2010 01:09:19 Originally by: King Aires Again on the support page, incorrect information. I know everyone here keeps saying do not be stupid, do not undock. But what about the new guy, the just starting out person who comes to eve and after reading the support pages, follows CCP's instructions loses his PLEX in his ship. That is just wrong. Yes, but someone who follows CCP's instruction won't lose his PLEX, since those instructions tell him he can't put the things in his cargo hold. So that inaccuracy solves itselfà Quote: The most wrong about this is, every PLEX that is lost, is $17.49 off CCP's liabilities. They directly profit from griefing activities. Again: how is this any different than if someone chooses to rclick→trash the PLEX? Or apply it and not log in? Or biomass the character? All of them are active player choices; all of them result in CCP not having to supply the service in question. Originally by: WhiteSavage Oh so CCP really makes no money off this at all says the guy posting in a thread where someone just lost over a grand of rl money or 6 years of eve subscriptions. No-one lost any money. Someone might have lost some subscription time, but from the sound of it, what they actually lost was some 22B ISKà Quote: Back up your scribble-scrabble of words and explain to us how this is NOT a profit making scheme. It relies 100% on player choice. Sure, it could still be considered a profit-making scheme, but then it's more akin to player charity towards CCP. As sinister plans go, that's a pretty lame one. Originally by: Xul Daethreen I don't see anyone denying that the changes show greed on CCP's part. I could probably go so far as to deny it, since I don't consider it much of a change. If anything, this lets players off the hook more than before if they make poor choices. That said, thoughà Quote: If people choose to give CCP more money, then I say let them. This. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki

King Aires Reliables Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.08.10 01:10:00 - [561] Originally by: Barakkus It's the same thing as buying some gtcs, selling 22 bil worth, buying a bunch of blueprints totalling 22 bil and undocking with them, he blew it all either way. I don't think he was going to apply 6 years of game time to his account, more likely going to try and make a few bil selling them. So, in essence, it was just ****ed away in a different form, the result is the same in the end. No it is not the same. In your scenario CCP honors game time to whoever bought the 22bil worth of GTC... you just don't get it, PLEX destruction is UNIQUE because it means game time is lost, not isk is lost. Isk is worthless, Game time has worth. The views expressed above are not those of my corp or an expression of where my corp stands.
WhiteSavage Gallente Ever Flow Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.10 01:11:00 - [562] Originally by: rootimus maximus Edited by: rootimus maximus on 10/08/2010 00:59:11 Originally by: WhiteSavage 2. amusing killmails is hardly a feature-point in this issue They're certainly a feature of Eve. Fun, even when I'm the poor bugger on the receiving end. :) Nice, you edited out that last part of my sentence lol. As i SAID, there are other/better/more productive ways of achieving this exact goal. So no... that does not work sir. Quote: I'm not denying anything, I just don't care. Some people complain about stuff in this game because we enjoy it and want it to be better, other people complain because they're whining little muppets. The latter will always complain here, in hello kitty online and in real life. For the most part, they seem to be the people complaining about PLEXs at the moment. So if something is wrong and you say hey, "something is wrong" You are a whiner and a complainer ok. I'm glad thats settled. And your "apathy" means little to this discussion. The fact that you don't care about something does not change actual facts. YOu should be a lawyer. "I don't care! Stop whining!@!!" Quote: I didn't call anyone stupid. Not even forum trolls, like your good self. Ah but yet you are the one hiding behind an alt. I would suggest that I am the player, customer, and life-blood of CCP's creation. You are however an alt. Which whittles your credibility down to that of a 1 day old player. As for all we know, you are.
Xul Daethreen	Posted - 2010.08.10 01:15:00 - [563] Originally by: WhiteSavage Ah but yet you are the one hiding behind an alt. I would suggest that I am the player, customer, and life-blood of CCP's creation. You are however an alt. Which whittles your credibility down to that of a 1 day old player. As for all we know, you are. 9 months 27 days on his employment history.
WhiteSavage Gallente Ever Flow Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.10 01:31:00 - [564] Originally by: Xul Daethreen I don't see anyone denying that the changes show greed on CCP's part. What everyone is arguing, is that if you choose to take these risks, to give people a chance to kill you, destroy those plexes, and provide profits for CCP, then IT'S YOUR OWN CHOICE. No one is forcing you to undock with PLEX in your cargo. No one is forcing you to move them or risk them. It is a CHOICE that you are allowed, and like most choices, both in Eve and life, there are consequences. You call CCP the muggers, but how can that be? Are they forcing you to undock with PLEX, did they change PLEX so that you have to move them around to use them? No they have not. Eve is a harsh cruel VIRTUAL world, and though it has parallels to real life, it is NOT real life. Just because suicide ganking is almost consequence free, it doesn't mean you can go around mugging people in Times Square without penalty. If people choose to give CCP more money, then I say let them. entirely valid point. Except as i have said... we are NOT arguing over people being stupid and lose plexes. If CCP wants to make a intergame decision and decide that plexes can be dropped thats fine (debatable in its own right...) BUT, to make them destroyable shows no purpose other then a disgusting greed aimed at you and I. A distinct detachment and apathy aimed at an extra dollar at your customers shortfall rather then an interest in players themselves. and THAT sir, is the mark of a failing franchise and a failing MMO. When the new CEO of Activision preached money over quality everyone cheered. But his company is losing money by the millions. The gaming industry cannot be pie-charted into a standard corporate business meeting. Your company RELY'S on my loyalty. And every showing of disloyalty on your part will lose you clients and future income. You would be a fool to cheer this behavior on.
rootimus maximus Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2010.08.10 01:43:00 - [565] Originally by: WhiteSavage BUT, to make them destroyable shows no purpose other then a disgusting greed aimed at you and I. If this is CCP's nefarious plot, they're overlooking that not everyone is silly enough to put themselves in a position where we can lose PLEX. Given the high standard of your trolling, you strike me as being smart enough not to do it (certainly not in Jita with wartargets present, at least). I know I wouldn't do it.
Nobzy	Posted - 2010.08.10 01:45:00 - [566] WhiteSavage, I direct this to you. The car and watch and mugger analogy was completely accurate and fitting to this scenario of losing plexes. You said that in real life there is insurance and laws against mugging, and you also claimed that that somehow voids the whole thing. You also claim that instead of providing a constructive counter argument the other person in question just said na-ah. While there is no concievable way a law against mugging and insurance in real life would anyway change the fittingness of the analogy. You also claim other people are simpletons and cannot graps the picture, and I'm so assuming you consider your counter argument above very different from that of a simpleton. Well, keeping this civil, could you care to explain to simple me how exactly, does insurance and laws negate that if you sell a car and buy a watch with that money, which gets robbed from you, make it ok to accuse the current car owner for your carelessness? It's understandable that in real life you wouldn't need to point the finger, because you would be reimbursed by insurance or getting your watch back, but does that mean if that wasn't the case it would be ok to blame the car owner then? Please, enlighten me because I'm too, just a simpleton.
King Aires Reliables Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.08.10 02:07:00 - [567] Originally by: Nobzy WhiteSavage, I direct this to you. The car and watch and mugger analogy was completely accurate and fitting to this scenario of losing plexes. You said that in real life there is insurance and laws against mugging, and you also claimed that that somehow voids the whole thing. You also claim that instead of providing a constructive counter argument the other person in question just said na-ah. While there is no concievable way a law against mugging and insurance in real life would anyway change the fittingness of the analogy. You also claim other people are simpletons and cannot graps the picture, and I'm so assuming you consider your counter argument above very different from that of a simpleton. Well, keeping this civil, could you care to explain to simple me how exactly, does insurance and laws negate that if you sell a car and buy a watch with that money, which gets robbed from you, make it ok to accuse the current car owner for your carelessness? It's understandable that in real life you wouldn't need to point the finger, because you would be reimbursed by insurance or getting your watch back, but does that mean if that wasn't the case it would be ok to blame the car owner then? Please, enlighten me because I'm too, just a simpleton. It would be like getting mugged in front of the police and them doing nothing to stop it or not even trying to arrest the person who did it. In order for the mugging scenario to work, then CCP should arrest the person who deprived you of your property. The scenario we have here is much more like the corrupt police of Mexico: Police and Drug dealer are working together, drug dealer sells kid some weed, kid takes the weed around the corner, runs into the cops. Cops take weed and give it back to Drug Dealer and split the profit, rinse and repeat. Except in the game, some drops go to the dealer, some drops go to CCP's bank account. The views expressed above are not those of my corp or an expression of where my corp stands.
Ivon Strom Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2010.08.10 02:11:00 - [568] Originally by: WhiteSavage Originally by: Merin Ryskin And honestly, the idea that this is all a conspiracy by CCP to get more profit is just **ing stupid as well. The vast majority of PLEXes will be used 100% safely in station, and the vast majority of people who decide to move them will do so using the standard near-invulnerable methods for moving small high-value cargo. The total "value" of PLEXes lost by idiots who are too stupid to know how to move them safely is an absurdly tiny number compared to CCP's total subscription cost. As a profit-making scheme, the PLEX changes are laughably ineffective. Oh so CCP really makes no money off this at all says the guy posting in a thread where someone just lost over a grand of rl money or 6 years of eve subscriptions. Although you are an incredibly mundane CCP alt... humor us please. Back up your scribble-scrabble of words and explain to us how this is NOT a profit making scheme. The game is broken in a million different places. So many things are overpowered, so many under. Everything is unfinished. So in what train of thought did CCP create this feature Merin Ryskin? Love of trees? Respect of young children? They did this to make a quick buck off the mistakes of others. Preaching anything otherwise is a huge leap of conscience and a foolish one at that. OMG! I **ed up and should be compensated for my stupidity. How about we compensate the stupidity with a...BOOT TO THE HEAD
0oO0oOoOo0o	Posted - 2010.08.10 02:14:00 - [569] Originally by: Xereyn In real life, many things are illegal: fraud, theft, assault, destruction of property. In EVE, anyone can undertake any of these activities at whim. This is wrong. You can't fraud or thief in eve in a way that is relevant to criminal law because you don't own any of the items that are in game. If you take someone's stuff, it isn't his but is owned by CCP and you are not the new owner but CCP still owns it. This is different with plex because of it's contractual obligation that is more than just the plex software. And that (unlike the other items) can be a subject of internet crime. Now you will say "but CCP allows to steal it" and from a criminal point of view this is bull****. CCP can't allow you to commit crime against others. If at the next fanfest CCP allowed you to kill any other person at the fanfest and everyone who entered the fanfest signed a contractual agreement on this, you'd still be prosecuted for murder if you'd kill somebody, the contract were null and void. CCP can't allow you to steal someone else stuff with RL value. And no, I bet the kestrel pilot did not agree in being robbed/thieved, he took reasonable precautions to avoid this loss (frigate with inertia modifier II), he either did not know or expect that someone will take away his intangible asset with rl money value. This asset was taken from him without his consent.
Ivon Strom Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2010.08.10 02:45:00 - [570] Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o Originally by: Xereyn In real life, many things are illegal: fraud, theft, assault, destruction of property. In EVE, anyone can undertake any of these activities at whim. *This is wrong. You can't fraud or thief in eve in a way that is relevant to criminal law because you don't own any of the items that are in game.* If you take someone's stuff, it isn't his but is owned by CCP and you are not the new owner but CCP still owns it. This is different with plex because of it's contractual obligation that is more than just the plex software. And that (unlike the other items) can be a subject of internet crime. Now you will say "but CCP allows to steal it" and from a criminal point of view this is bull**. CCP can't allow you to commit crime against others. If at the next fanfest CCP allowed you to kill any other person at the fanfest and everyone who entered the fanfest signed a contractual agreement on this, you'd still be prosecuted for murder if you'd kill somebody, the contract were null and void. CCP can't allow you to steal someone else stuff with RL value. And no, I bet the kestrel pilot did not agree in being robbed/thieved, he took reasonable precautions to avoid this loss (frigate with inertia modifier II), he either did not know or expect that someone will take away his intangible asset with rl money value. This asset was taken from him without his consent. I love it when idiots answer the reason (underlined) why CCP isn't at fault. By the way Interwub Lawlyer the contract clearly states that the Plex is WORTH..lemme say that again WORTH; W-O-R-T-H. If you like I can give you the definition of that word. This means if you apply the Plex and only get allocated 20days CCP has broken the contract. Having a Plex does not entitle you to 30 days UNLESS YOU USE IT**.

Mara Rinn	Posted - 2010.08.10 02:49:00 - [571] Originally by: WhiteSavage we are NOT arguing over people being stupid and lose plexes. If CCP wants to make a intergame decision and decide that plexes can be dropped thats fine (debatable in its own right...) BUT, to make them destroyable shows no purpose other then a disgusting greed aimed at you and I. I lost a CNR and fittings worth about 1B ISK. This proves that CCP is disgustingly greedy and only concerned about fuelling their PLEX market! Making PLEX destructible is a smart move on CCPs behalf, since this will make PLEX scarcer and thus more valuable. To people selling PLEX for ISK, this is good news. To CCP trying to restrict the amount of unauthorised RMT happening in EVE Online, this is also good news. To people like me trying to farm up the ISK to pay for game time using PLEX, it's probably bad news. Suggesting that PLEX should be indestructible is advocating unauthorised RMT. -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel]
Jade Knight07	Posted - 2010.08.10 03:08:00 - [572] I have been following this thread and thought up an analogy which I have not yet seen. I may have missed it but I will throw this out there anyways. Lets say I went camping at a camp site that has a general store at the entrance. Late one night after getting hammered I decide I want to go buy another beer. I stumble my way up to the general store passing all kinds of signs that say "beware of bears", though I am so hammered I completely ignore them. I go into the store and buy another beer. Then stumble out of the store with beer in hand so drunk I I walk off the wrong direction and wonder deep into bear land where I stumble and bump a bear. This bear then takes a swipe at me and nocks my bear out of my hand and it breaks on the ground. My question isà. Why on earth would anyone think the general stores supplier is responsible to replace my beer? For those that will inevitably pick this analogy to pieces. The beer is the PLEX, the general store is the person who bought the GTC, the beer supplier to the store is CCP, the service is me passing out drunk, the bear is the ganker, the warning signs are all the details of this guys dumb move, including, 1. its Jita!, 2. He's was in a frig 3. he put them all in a single can. 4. He was in a war 5. ITS JITA!* *Disclaimer: This information I assumed is true after reading most of this thread. If notà who cares. I am completely ok with CCP making PLEX's movable. For some this is a convenience. For me, I will never take one out of a station. I buy it there, I apply it there. To the guy who lost all those PLEX's you have my sympathy. It sucks when you loose big ticket items no matter what they are PLEX"S, faction ships, Officers mods, whatever. It also sucks when you drop you beer.
Aerilis Gallente Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2010.08.10 03:15:00 - [573] Originally by: Mara Rinn Originally by: WhiteSavage we are NOT arguing over people being stupid and lose plexes. If CCP wants to make a intergame decision and decide that plexes can be dropped thats fine (debatable in its own right...) BUT, to make them destroyable shows no purpose other then a disgusting greed aimed at you and I. I lost a CNR and fittings worth about 1B ISK. This proves that CCP is disgustingly greedy and only concerned about fuelling their PLEX market! Making PLEX destructible is a smart move on CCPs behalf, since this will make PLEX scarcer and thus more valuable. To people selling PLEX for ISK, this is good news. To CCP trying to restrict the amount of unauthorised RMT happening in EVE Online, this is also good news. To people like me trying to farm up the ISK to pay for game time using PLEX, it's probably bad news. Suggesting that PLEX should be indestructible is advocating unauthorised RMT. You've obviously never taken a single economics class in your life.
Aerilis Gallente Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2010.08.10 03:18:00 - [574] Originally by: Jade Knight07 I have been following this thread and thought up an analogy which I have not yet seen. I may have missed it but I will throw this out there anyways. Lets say I went camping at a camp site that has a general store at the entrance. Late one night after getting hammered I decide I want to go buy another beer. I stumble my way up to the general store passing all kinds of signs that say "beware of bears", though I am so hammered I completely ignore them. I go into the store and buy another beer. Then stumble out of the store with beer in hand so drunk I I walk off the wrong direction and wonder deep into bear land where I stumble and bump a bear. This bear then takes a swipe at me and nocks my bear out of my hand and it breaks on the ground. My question isà. Why on earth would anyone think the general stores supplier is responsible to replace my beer? For those that will inevitably pick this analogy to pieces. The beer is the PLEX, the general store is the person who bought the GTC, the beer supplier to the store is CCP, the service is me passing out drunk, the bear is the ganker, the warning signs are all the details of this guys dumb move, including, 1. its Jita!, 2. He's was in a frig 3. he put them all in a single can. 4. He was in a war 5. ITS JITA!* *Disclaimer: This information I assumed is true after reading most of this thread. If notà who cares. I am completely ok with CCP making PLEX's movable. For some this is a convenience. For me, I will never take one out of a station. I buy it there, I apply it there. To the guy who lost all those PLEX's you have my sympathy. It sucks when you loose big ticket items no matter what they are PLEX"S, faction ships, Officers mods, whatever. It also sucks when you drop you beer. People keep making physical analogies, which are just plain wrong because the physical world is very different than a virtual world. In the physical world beer is hard to keep safe, you can spill it, bears can steal it, etc. In the virtual world, you can very easily make your bear unstealable and indestructible. Which was the case before CCP changed it so that bears could steal your beer and make more business for the beer store.
Herzog Wolfhammer Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2010.08.10 03:26:00 - [575] Once upon a time I worked as a mechanic. We worked hard to get things fixed right, and as fast as possible. But when neglected boats, generators, and RVs were costing the owners big, it never failed, they went to the owner of the shop and complained, threatening legal attacks, not wanting to pay, insisting that everything was covered under the warranty, and such other methods. One day I asked the boss: "Why is it that everybody who is rich enough to own a boat or RV still goes to you to complain about the bill. That even after we do our best to keep it as low as possible?" And the boss said to me: "You have to understand, these people have been crooks their entire lives. Sure they don't pick pockets or rob banks, but with every aspect of their lives requiring them to pay for something, there was always some program through their union, or employer, or insurance. For them, there was always some way to find some paragraph in a law book, or pay a lawyer to do it, or create enough noise for a creditor for as long as it took to get some kind of settlement. So of course they bring their $150,000 boat here, in crap condition, way beyond warranty, and expect for there to be some kind of loophole or whatever to get out of having to pay for something they were responsible for. Does not bother me though. Been doing this for 30 years and I am used to it". So you see, people, there is a class, mainly in the USA, of people who always think there is an "out", always think that complaining works, with difficulty or odds being only a matter of time. Notice the threats that the US will fine or charge CCP for this? These are the ones who would be getting ganked with 22B in plex in their frigate and then write their congressman to use the powers of the government as their personal weapon. They already do it over real life issues, as people with $50,000 cars want someone else to pay their health insurance, want someone else to bail them out of their quarter million dollar house, and want more war and welfare but don't want to pay for it. There is always an "out" for this crowd. Gank their Kestrel full of plex, and they will be trying to talk to their local newspapers and making articles on it. All that in spite of the warnings, the responsibility. I don't know about other nations, I suspect this mentality infects much of the western world, especially one where kids are told they are special and important not matter how stupid and fail they are. You can't gank their Kestrel and expect them to accept their mistakes any more than you can use their own stupidity against them to wreck their economy and realize they got scammed. This thread makes me truly embarrassed to be a subscriber.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2010.08.10 03:37:00 - [576] Originally by: Aerilis You've obviously never taken a single economics class in your life. Obviously not, please educate me as to the error of my ways? -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel]
0oO0oOoOo0o	Posted - 2010.08.10 03:45:00 - [577] Originally by: Ivon Strom I love it when idiots answer the reason (underlined) why CCP isn't at fault. By the way Interwub Lawlyer the contract clearly states that the Plex is WORTH..lemme say that again WORTH; W-O-R-T-H. If you like I can give you the definition of that word. This means if you apply the Plex and only get allocated 20days CCP has broken the contract. Having a Plex does not entitle you to 30 days UNLESS YOU USE IT. And how exactly does this prove anything or disprove what I have said ? Are you somewhat ******ed or something ? The 1 $ banknote is of no use to you as well UNLESS YOU USE IT .. does it mean it has no value and can't be stolen ?? Also I provided a reason why CCP is at fault, not why CCP isn't at fault, learn to read&understand the whole paragraph before quoting&replying.
Scyyy	Posted - 2010.08.10 04:05:00 - [578] Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o Originally by: Culmen CCP has always had a system where you could make a PLEX worthless, Right Click -> Trash It. ... But I'm not going to be ****ed if someone right click->trashed a stack of PLEXs. Like wise, if he was dumb enough to undock a defenseless ship with war-targets in system. Trashing it yourself is completely different from if someone else trashes it or takes it away from you. If you deliberately and in full consciousness destroy your assets, you are free to do so. If someone else takes it from you without your consent, it's theft. If he takes it by deception, it's fraud. If he takes it with violence, it's robbery and so on. You can't treat trashing and theft/fraud/robbery likewise even if the result for you is the same. Stop trying to sound like a lawyer, its not working for you.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.10 04:08:00 - [579] Originally by: Aerilis In the virtual world, you can very easily make your bear unstealable and indestructible. Which was the case before CCP changed it ànot really, no. People keep referring to this as a change, when it's really not. People were just given more choices on how they wanted to enact the existing mechanics. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Zief	Posted - 2010.08.10 04:30:00 - [580] Note! Beer soaked ramble ahead! PLEXs don't make CCP loose ANY money at all! NO one plays eve for free! Just because YOU didn't pay for for that 30 days doesn't mean someone didn't! They don't seed PLEXs afterall, someone had to buy it. If anything just having plex's in the game probably makes CCP moar monies because it lets people who may be on the verge of quitting play for a little longer at the expense of those who are willing to part with real world money to buy the pvp Tengu they are going to loose tonight. Take the tinfoil off your heads and use it for something more productive.. like baking a potato.

Aerilis Gallente Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2010.08.10 05:13:00 - [581] Originally by: Mara Rinn Originally by: Aerilis You've obviously never taken a single economics class in your life. Obviously not, please educate me as to the error of my ways? First off all your assumptions about scarcity are wrong, as PLEX is not a scarce good. Destroying PLEX does not make PLEX more scarce, it's not gold or oil. It has infinite supply. As PLEX value rises, more people will simply trade irl money for PLEX, until supply and demand balance out again. That's the simple version anyway. In reality, making PLEXs destrucible has quite a few factors on supply/demand. However the amount of PLEX actually destroyed is a tiny portion of those that pass through the market every day, and won't have significant affect on the PLEX market as a whole. Indestructible PLEX does not encourage RMT, as current RMT prices are pretty much determined by PLEX prices. Illegal RMT sources give you a slight discount (usually around 20%) off PLEX rates to encourage players to get ISK from them. If the PLEX prices move by any significant margin, you can bet the RMT price will as well.
Slug Killer	Posted - 2010.08.10 05:37:00 - [582] Im with white on this, I dont think anyone cares at all about whether that tool lost his 75 plex or whatever. That is not what the debate is about, the debate is about how they can be destroyable. It should be a 100% drop rate on plex, they were already paid for, that plex represents a contract to provide a service irl, to a paying customer. And CCP just cancelled that contract, provided nothing, and kept the money. CCP could have easily made a game mechanic that made this secure, and still a pain to move easily creating a mini profession if you will, or they could have skipped that mini profession crap, and just made it secure. For example make them able to be completely manipulated within the asset window regardless of where they are on sale at. That was their choice, did they do this? The answer sadly is no, they made a system where 50%? Im sure its higher, but ill save the tin foil, of all plexs that are jettisoned from a ship due to the destruction of said ship, are returned to CCP and they keep the currency. How some of you cant see this as morally reprehensible is beyond me. Ill save you the irl analogies too many of you are too stupid to understand them anyways. All I know is that selling things to customers then having them explode, lowers ccps rep to that of a guy selling electric knives at 4 am on the infomercial channel. GG CCP, quite a few of us just lost what little faith we had in your company and its direction. And IMO, which isnt worth more than 3 accounts per month, those things should always drop, period. Those pirates should have gotten all of those plex, and it should have been a joyous celebration outside jita, rather than a 1300 euro bonus to some ***got in a cubicle in iceland.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2010.08.10 06:08:00 - [583] Originally by: Slug Killer And CCP just cancelled that contract, provided nothing, and kept the money. No, the **ing idiot who undocked in a Kestrel full of PLEXes canceled the "contract". CCP merely said "if you wish to gamble with your PLEXes, we will allow you to do so" and provided the rules that govern their possible destruction (that is, the same rules for any other item). It was the individual player's choice to use their PLEXes in a way that they were perfectly aware could result in the destruction of those PLEXes. They voluntarily** clicked the button that says "yes, I would like to perform actions which may result in my PLEXes ceasing to exist", and they paid the price for that decision. Why is this so hard to understand? -----------
Nubbins McNoobson Minmatar	Posted - 2010.08.10 06:17:00 - [584] Originally by: Slug Killer Edited by: Slug Killer on 10/08/2010 05:47:50 Edit: Screw it ill throw my crappy analogy in there. Imagine this scenario if you will, Dudes walks up to the atm puts in his debit card, pulls out 20 bucks / euros, and smiles to himself, hes going to get a lapdance. He turns the corner as he walks away only to get horribly beaten by a criminal, and mugged for his 20 bucks, but alas after the beating, the 20 dollars vanishes!? Thats right, it returned itself to the atm, but didnt get credited back to the guys account. The banks (CCP) happy they just legally scammed some poor sod out of 20 bucks, the mugger took the heat, and is running from the law, and got zilch even tho he beat the dude good and should have gotten the 20 bucks for that hit of smack he needed to get right. Moral of the story other than a good story to tell the guys in the clink about the poor sod that he kicked the crap out of, noone but the bank won in this scenario. And all you ***gots defending CCP are still sticking money in that atm like sheep. The problem with most of the analogies is one or more essential parts get left out and/or twisted. You're comparing spaceship combat to hand-to-hand combat. Now imagine the criminal robbing said person with a heavy missile launcher. Would you think the 20 dollar bill will survive? Bank still gets 'paid' for those 20 bucks, however the bill is not returned to the bank. Exactly how it is now with plexes.
FlameGlow Rebellion Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.10 06:21:00 - [585] Some ppl don't understand(and some pretend they don't understand) that 100% drop rate will result in suicide ganking of anything with PLEX in cargo, since it always drops and pays off the loss to CONCORD. And there is nothing wrong with CCP taking money and not providing service to stupid ppl too Originally by: CCP Manifest Imploding servers are not a part of our business model.
Isten Baba	Posted - 2010.08.10 06:33:00 - [586] Originally by: Aerilis First off all your assumptions about scarcity are wrong, as PLEX is not a scarce good. Destroying PLEX does not make PLEX more scarce, it's not gold or oil. It has infinite supply. Interesting. Maybe you shouldn't accuse others of not understanding economics...
Danny Blitz	Posted - 2010.08.10 06:38:00 - [587] Just saying: If I kept all my money in a wooden box next to the fireplace and it suddenly went up in smoke one day, I don't get to go crying to my employer because he didn't make sure I was using a fireproof box.
WhiteSavage Gallente Ever Flow Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.10 08:09:00 - [588] I am genuinely surprised at how much support CCP is getting here... Stultorum infinitus est numerus CCP has created a game mechanic that by and large will NOT effect the vast majority of the player-base. However, it allows them to make rl money off the mistakes of their customers. I am not really sure about what so many people here are arguing about. Do you disagree? DO you feel that they implemented this change for a different reason? lol
WhiteSavage Gallente Ever Flow Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.10 08:16:00 - [589] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Aerilis In the virtual world, you can very easily make your bear unstealable and indestructible. Which was the case before CCP changed it ànot really, no. People keep referring to this as a change, when it's really not. People were just given more choices on how they wanted to enact the existing mechanics. Actually now in-game items that are, in exchange for rl money, unlike everything else in this game... give you a preset amount of game-time can be destroyed to the gain of CCP and no-one else. If any other item is destroyed CCP only profits on the subscription of the player. However when this is destroyed, CCP pockets the cash and demands another fee to fill the game-time gap that would have been filled at some future point. This is a slap in the face to us as players. And looking at the people in this thread i suppose it was in good faith. CCP knows their clientFle better then I, and they can get away with this is suppose... because of all the alts. wait... everybody here is alts wtf. seriously. sigh* CCP you've tricked me again I would say this is... a change?
Isten Baba	Posted - 2010.08.10 08:25:00 - [590] Edited by: Isten Baba on 10/08/2010 08:25:38 Originally by: WhiteSavage I am genuinely surprised at how much support CCP is getting here... Stultorum infinitus est numerus CCP has created a game mechanic that by and large will NOT effect the vast majority of the player-base. However, it allows them to make rl money off the mistakes of their customers. I am not really sure about what so many people here are arguing about. Do you disagree? DO you feel that they implemented this change for a different reason? lol Well, there are three reasons why I'm on the "CCP side" here: 1) It annoys me that people here act as if there is something "illegal" about it. There blatantly isn't. How about just using some common sense? I really dislike this "legal entitlement" attitude that people display whenever they don't like something. 2) PLEX should be treated like any other ingame item. Why not? If someone buys PLEX to genuinely use it as game time, than there is no need whatsoever to take it out of station. You are only liable to losing it is when you start trading/hauling PLEX, and in that case it is no different than any other ingame item. 3) I think CCP are making huge mistakes in their development strategy at the moment (see other threads). Those issues are much more important to me. We should focus on pressuring/changing CCP's overall development direction, rather than getting distracted by non-issues such as this. OH, and I realoy don't mind CCP earning a bit of extra cash through PLEX ganking. I just want CCP to spend the money wisely.

Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.08.10 08:40:00 - [591] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Slug Killer And CCP just cancelled that contract, provided nothing, and kept the money. No, the **ing idiot who undocked in a Kestrel full of PLEXes canceled the "contract". CCP merely said "if you wish to gamble with your PLEXes, we will allow you to do so" and provided the rules that govern their possible destruction (that is, the same rules for any other item). It was the individual player's choice to use their PLEXes in a way that they were perfectly aware could result in the destruction of those PLEXes. They voluntarily** clicked the button that says "yes, I would like to perform actions which may result in my PLEXes ceasing to exist", and they paid the price for that decision. Why is this so hard to understand? They do understand, they just want EVE to be "fair". Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.08.10 08:43:00 - [592] Originally by: WhiteSavage However, it allows them to make rl money off the mistakes of their customers. Thats how you can look at it, from a carebear perspective. The trading community would call this opportunity tho. The fact they can be destroyed sounds like a fair risk to trade goods. Unless you would want to argue that all trade goods should be indestructible offcourse. Quote: I am not really sure about what so many people here are arguing about. The utterly failing arguement that CCP is cheating it's playerbase out of gametime. Quote: Do you disagree? DO you feel that they implemented this change for a different reason? lol Go back to top. ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
WhiteSavage Gallente Ever Flow Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.10 08:54:00 - [593] Originally by: Isten Baba Edited by: Isten Baba on 10/08/2010 08:25:38 Well, there are three reasons why I'm on the "CCP side" here: 1) It annoys me that people here act as if there is something "illegal" about it. There blatantly isn't. How about just using some common sense? I really dislike this "legal entitlement" attitude that people display whenever they don't like something. Ok Quote: 2) PLEX should be treated like any other ingame item. Why not? It is entirely unique to any other item in-game. It can be directly converted into game-time, and is ONLY spawned by a direct RL money transaction. Quote: If someone buys PLEX to genuinely use it as game time, than there is no need whatsoever to take it out of station. You are only liable to losing it is when you start trading/hauling PLEX, and in that case it is no different than any other ingame item. Ofc. So then why has CCP decided to allow plex to be destroyed? Quote: 3) I think CCP are making huge mistakes in their development strategy at the moment (see other threads). Those issues are much more important to me. We should focus on pressuring/changing CCP's overall development direction, rather than getting distracted by non-issues such as this. Pick your battles. Thats a fair point. I agree... i'm more offended by CCP's attitude in this matter then anything else. Never have never will deal with plex... but the whole implementation of this "CCP get rich quicker off stupid people's backs" scheme makes me sick. Quote: OH, and I realoy don't mind CCP earning a bit of extra cash through PLEX ganking. I just want CCP to spend the money wisely. Thats fine. But they wont. I'm guessing so little money will be made that it will be negligible. CCP's books will barely change. The only difference is a few dumb players will be r8ped here and there for their RL cash.
Shade Knight Amarr Egotistical Space Captains WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.08.10 09:04:00 - [594] CCP is getting pretty outrageous. The losers aren't the one's getting their PLEXES popped, the losers are all the people here trying to defend CCP's actions. CCP alts or un-tuned miss-fits attempting to rationalize robbery. Faith and loyalty, aint it grand?
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2010.08.10 09:11:00 - [595] Originally by: Shade Knight CCP is getting pretty outrageous. The losers aren't the one's getting their PLEXES popped, the losers are all the people here trying to defend CCP's actions. CCP alts or un-tuned miss-fits attempting to rationalize robbery. Faith and loyalty, aint it grand? I'll condemn CCP the moment one of you can present a credible argument for me to do so. That hasn't happened so far and all you have done is try in various ways to justify your personal feelings of moral resentment. Good luck on your future efforts to do so though.
Mika Malicious	Posted - 2010.08.10 09:14:00 - [596] Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer Words of wisdom. You, good Sir, are spot on! As you mentioned, this probem is not just confined to the States, although it does manifest itself in other forms elsewhere. In most of Europe, there are EU-wide consumer protection laws (dunno about Iceland, since they're not EU members), which entitle customers to completely ridiculous things in some cases, as well as providing a basic guarantee that a product won't be sold with flaws (I'm just waiting for someone to bust Microsoft on that one). This is, generally, a good thing; you're not supposed to sell crappy cars that break down after five minutes, without clearly explaining that the cars will break down five minutes after the purchase. However, the interpretations of those regulations are different in most of EU's member states, and as a result many people have abused the consumer protection laws for all sort of silly things. In the Nordic countries (once again, I'm excluding our little brother in the Atlantic, lrn2EU guys), the situation is starting to get outright silly. Disabled the AV protection on your computer, and downloaded every trojan known to man? No problem! Just hand the computer back to the store, and claim it's a production fault. Worst-case scenario is they'll say it's not covered by consumer legislation and/or warranty, in which case we'll just threaten with the Consumer right's board, and they'll do it anyway. How about having lightning strike down in your brand new TV? Not covered? No worries! Faults that appear within the first six months are automatically deemed to be production faults, unless the seller can prove otherwise in court. And trust me when I say that the courts have no idea how technology works. And don't even get me started on people being upset when the rules are changed so that they can't exploit the welfare system anymore...
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.08.10 09:16:00 - [597] Originally by: Shade Knight Faith and loyalty, aint it grand? N/A. The ONLY valid arguement in this whole discussion is that CCP does not have to honor 30 days (x number of PLEX' destroyed) of gametime at some point in time. People are suggesting that some people will not be able to play the game because of PLEX' being destroyed. The funny thing is: the only people that this applies to are the ones extending gametime with ISK, or gametime with gametime. So the ones freeloading on CCP have an issue with it, and try to hide it as some lame excuse that people get cheated out of their money. Doing so they skip the fact that person spawning the PLEX', through direct transaction with CCP or converting an ETC, GOT their $$$'s worth in ISK, at the exact conversion rate they accepted. So in the end, the people not paying to play EVE are worried that some day PLEX' might get more expensive or run out alltogether, causing some of us to have to pay gasp for EVE again. ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2010.08.10 09:18:00 - [598] Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer Once upon a time I worked as a mechanic. We worked hard to get things fixed right, and as fast as possible. But when neglected boats, generators, and RVs were costing the owners big, it never failed, they went to the owner of the shop and complained, threatening legal attacks, not wanting to pay, insisting that everything was covered under the warranty, and such other methods. One day I asked the boss: "Why is it that everybody who is rich enough to own a boat or RV still goes to you to complain about the bill. That even after we do our best to keep it as low as possible?" And the boss said to me: "You have to understand, these people have been crooks their entire lives. Sure they don't pick pockets or rob banks, but with every aspect of their lives requiring them to pay for something, there was always some program through their union, or employer, or insurance. For them, there was always some way to find some paragraph in a law book, or pay a lawyer to do it, or create enough noise for a creditor for as long as it took to get some kind of settlement. So of course they bring their $150,000 boat here, in crap condition, way beyond warranty, and expect for there to be some kind of loophole or whatever to get out of having to pay for something they were responsible for. Does not bother me though. Been doing this for 30 years and I am used to it". So you see, people, there is a class, mainly in the USA, of people who always think there is an "out", always think that complaining works, with difficulty or odds being only a matter of time. Notice the threats that the US will fine or charge CCP for this? These are the ones who would be getting ganked with 22B in plex in their frigate and then write their congressman to use the powers of the government as their personal weapon. They already do it over real life issues, as people with $50,000 cars want someone else to pay their health insurance, want someone else to bail them out of their quarter million dollar house, and want more war and welfare but don't want to pay for it. There is always an "out" for this crowd. Gank their Kestrel full of plex, and they will be trying to talk to their local newspapers and making articles on it. All that in spite of the warnings, the responsibility. I don't know about other nations, I suspect this mentality infects much of the western world, especially one where kids are told they are special and important not matter how stupid and fail they are. You can't gank their Kestrel and expect them to accept their mistakes any more than you can use their own stupidity against them to wreck their economy and realize they got scammed. This thread makes me truly embarrassed to be a subscriber. Nailed it. Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
Shade Knight Amarr Egotistical Space Captains WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.08.10 09:20:00 - [599] Originally by: Ressiv Originally by: Shade Knight Faith and loyalty, aint it grand? N/A. The ONLY valid arguement in this whole discussion is that CCP does not have to honor 30 days (x number of PLEX' destroyed) of gametime at some point in time. People are suggesting that some people will not be able to play the game because of PLEX' being destroyed. The funny thing is: the only people that this applies to are the ones extending gametime with ISK, or gametime with gametime. So the ones freeloading on CCP have an issue with it, and try to hide it as some lame excuse that people get cheated out of their money. Doing so they skip the fact that person spawning the PLEX', through direct transaction with CCP or converting an ETC, GOT their $$$'s worth in ISK, at the exact conversion rate they accepted. So in the end, the people not paying to play EVE are worried that some day PLEX' might get more expensive or run out alltogether, causing some of us to have to pay gasp for EVE again. You are throwing an argument I do not argue at me and then proving it wrong. Not really fair my good friend. Log onto eve we'll have a chat. Otherwise I don't really understand what you're getting at. There are so many random arguments here...
King Aires Reliables Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.08.10 09:20:00 - [600] Edited by: King Aires on 10/08/2010 09:22:44 Originally by: Destination SkillQueue Originally by: Shade Knight CCP is getting pretty outrageous. The losers aren't the one's getting their PLEXES popped, the losers are all the people here trying to defend CCP's actions. CCP alts or un-tuned miss-fits attempting to rationalize robbery. Faith and loyalty, aint it grand? I'll condemn CCP the moment one of you can present a credible argument for me to do so. That hasn't happened so far and all you have done is try in various ways to justify your personal feelings of moral resentment. Good luck on your future efforts to do so though. CCP got 17.99 for every plex that was destroyed and no longer has to provide 17.99 worth of service for every plex that was destroyed. It is a Ethical argument not a moral one. If you do not find it credible that a company can engineer a system which benefits it directly when they have a monopoly on that system and this is wrong, then there is no hope for you. I have a sneaking suspicion that most CCP supporters in this thread are either A) hoping to gank someone for free plex, B) so enamored with the idea of the most cut-throat eve can be because they are virtually bad-ass, or C) Unable to disconnect the real worth of PLEX from that isk value in the market page. EDIT: Ressiv you are an idiot sir. No one thinks that PLEX being destroyed will prevent others from playing the game. We are all just true believers that if ccp is paid 1200 dollars for game time that they have to provide 1200 dollars of game time to someone. CCP are the only ones who won on that killmail. The views expressed above are not those of my corp or an expression of where my corp stands.

Shade Knight Amarr Egotistical Space Captains WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.08.10 09:24:00 - [601] Originally by: King Aires CCP got 17.99 for every plex that was destroyed and no longer has to provide 17.99 worth of service for every plex that was destroyed. It is a Ethical argument not a moral one. If you do not find it credible that a company can engineer a system which benefits it directly when they have a monopoly on that system and this is wrong, then there is no hope for you. I have a sneaking suspicion that most CCP supporters in this thread are either A) hoping to gank someone for free plex, B) so enamored with the idea of the most cut-throat eve can be because they are virtually bad-ass, or C) Unable to disconnect the real worth of PLEX from that isk value in the market page. EDIT: Ressiv you are an idiot sir. No one thinks that PLEX being destroyed will prevent others from playing the game. We are all just true believers that if ccp is paid 1200 dollars for game time that they have to provide 1200 dollars of game time to someone. CCP are the only ones who won on that killmail. Can make new thread w/this post?
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.08.10 09:36:00 - [602] Originally by: King Aires EDIT: Ressiv you are an idiot sir. No one thinks that PLEX being destroyed will prevent others from playing the game. We are all just true believers that if ccp is paid 1200 dollars for game time that they have to provide 1200 dollars of game time to someone. CCP are the only ones who won on that killmail. Confirming that not providing 1200 of gametime != someone being unable to extend account. Oh .. wait .. you know there are enough PLEX' on the market, and will be, to make this irrelevant at large ? You just want a special status for the PLEX' to profit on others stupidity yourself with a 100% success rate ? That it ? ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
WhiteSavage Gallente Ever Flow Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.10 09:43:00 - [603] Originally by: Ressiv Originally by: King Aires EDIT: Ressiv you are an idiot sir. No one thinks that PLEX being destroyed will prevent others from playing the game. We are all just true believers that if ccp is paid 1200 dollars for game time that they have to provide 1200 dollars of game time to someone. CCP are the only ones who won on that killmail. Confirming that not providing 1200 of gametime != someone being unable to extend account. Oh .. wait .. you know there are enough PLEX' on the market, and will be, to make this irrelevant at large ? You just want a special status for the PLEX' to profit on others stupidity yourself with a 100% success rate ? That it ? Ressiv you are disagreeing just to disagree. Please. This is kind of a big deal and your arguments are beyond grasping at straws. We are saying if I pay CCP for $1 worth of gametime i expect $1 worth of game-time. Do you disagree? Suggesting that we are demanding a 100% drop rate so that we can personally profit not only doesn't make sense... but is hypocritical to an extreme. So when CCP does it, its ok. But then you point fingers at us exclaiming that WE are trying to get rich off others? WTF There is a major issue at hand here and we're all in the same boat. Either add to this discussion or get off.
Stillgar VI	Posted - 2010.08.10 09:44:00 - [604] Plex for pakistan? each plex that goes pop CCP donates ú5 to the relief effort, some PR could go along way atm guys
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.08.10 09:53:00 - [605] Originally by: WhiteSavage This is kind of a big deal and your arguments are beyond grasping at straws. We are saying if I pay CCP for $1 worth of gametime i expect $1 worth of game-time. Do you disagree? Where I start to disagree is where people are saying that the playerbase is getting cheated out of gametime. As soon as a PLEX is being used as trade commodity, it should suffer the same risk as ANY trade commodity: to drop, or not to drop. Quote: Suggesting that we are demanding a 100% drop rate so that we can personally profit not only doesn't make sense... but is hypocritical to an extreme. Please tell me why ? You are claiming that a PLEX should be protected from being handled without care. I say thats the holders responsabillity, not CCP's. Quote: So when CCP does it, its ok. But then you point fingers at us exclaiming that WE are trying to get rich off others? WTF PLEX does not have a 0% drop rate. So this is soo much fail in one line, I dont even care to point it out beyond this. Quote: There is a major issue at hand here and we're all in the same boat. Either add to this discussion or get off. The major issue at hand is people being too dense to understand they got a new way of making ISK, if done correct, that they DO NOT NEED TO USE AT ALL! ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
Shawna Gray Gallente	Posted - 2010.08.10 09:56:00 - [606] To sum up the last 21 pages: Buhuu I dont want to take responsibility for my own actions. These are the people that bring you warning signs on your coffee cup to make sure you understand the contents might be hot.
Edible Bandaid Gallente Crimson Nation	Posted - 2010.08.10 10:04:00 - [607] Originally by: Shawna Gray To sum up the last 21 pages: Buhuu I dont want to take responsibility for my own actions. These are the people that bring you warning signs on your coffee cup to make sure you understand the contents might be hot. To sum up the last 21 pages Buhuu I dont understand the difference between an item that affects my real life and that which effects my virtual world. Buhuu These are the people that bring you 4chan... ___________________________________ WHHYYYYYY
Shawna Gray Gallente	Posted - 2010.08.10 10:08:00 - [608] Originally by: Edible Bandaid Originally by: Shawna Gray To sum up the last 21 pages: Buhuu I dont want to take responsibility for my own actions. These are the people that bring you warning signs on your coffee cup to make sure you understand the contents might be hot. To sum up the last 21 pages Buhuu I dont understand the difference between an item that affects my real life and that which effects my virtual world. Buhuu These are the people that bring you 4chan... If you are that worried about its effect on your "real life" you would think you had the brains to not gamble with it. Thanks for proving my point.
WhiteSavage Gallente Ever Flow Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.10 10:10:00 - [609] Edited by: WhiteSavage on 10/08/2010 10:10:11 Originally by: Ressiv Where I start to disagree is where people are saying that the playerbase is getting cheated out of gametime. EVE have created a monopoly wherein they sell their customers a product and then endorse those customers being robbed right outside their doors. And then they split their winnings, as you say, 50/50. Quote: As soon as a PLEX is being used as trade commodity, it should suffer the same risk as ANY trade commodity: to drop, or not to drop. Except plex is in no way similar to any trade commodity except perhaps the fact that it can be sold for virtual monetary value. lol. It does not spawn, it cannot be manufactured through ingame means. It cannot be scammed out of someones possession. And it the only ingame item that represents and directly transfers into gametime. Quote: You are claiming that a PLEX should be protected from being handled without care. I say thats the holders responsabillity, not CCP's. CCP IS the holder. Under the EULA you own nothing in EVE. Thats the only reason that this is all entirely legal. Quote: The major issue at hand is people being too dense to understand they got a new way of making ISK, if done correct, that they DO NOT NEED TO USE AT ALL! This pretty much sums up your brain here I need not say more. Like i said, add to the discussion or get off.
WhiteSavage Gallente Ever Flow Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.10 10:14:00 - [610] Originally by: Shawna Gray Originally by: Edible Bandaid Originally by: Shawna Gray To sum up the last 21 pages: Buhuu I dont want to take responsibility for my own actions. These are the people that bring you warning signs on your coffee cup to make sure you understand the contents might be hot. To sum up the last 21 pages Buhuu I dont understand the difference between an item that affects my real life and that which effects my virtual world. Buhuu These are the people that bring you 4chan... If you are that worried about its effect on your "real life" you would think you had the brains to not gamble with it. Thanks for proving my point. ...Individual stupidity has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. get wit the program.

Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.08.10 10:17:00 - [611] Originally by: WhiteSavage Edited by: WhiteSavage on 10/08/2010 10:10:11 Originally by: Ressiv Where I start to disagree is where people are saying that the playerbase is getting cheated out of gametime. EVE have created a monopoly wherein they sell their customers a product and then endorse those customers being robbed right outside their doors. And then they split their winnings, as you say, 50/50. I would love it if you could point out how your reply has ANYTHING to do with the part you quoted. And I never mentioned 50/50. I mentioned: to drop, or not to drop. Also, they do not endorse it, they just gave you the option to be as stupid in-game, as you are outside of it. Quote: As soon as a PLEX is being used as trade commodity, it should suffer the same risk as ANY trade commodity: to drop, or not to drop. Except plex is in no way similar to any trade commodity except perhaps the fact that it can be sold for virtual monetary value. lol. It does not spawn, it cannot be manufactured through ingame means. It cannot be scammed out of someones possession. And it the only ingame item that represents and directly transfers into gametime. Again, please point out how your views on what a PLEX is and how it comes into the game has anything to do with how it should be handled when clearly intended to be traded for profit ? (or are you suggesting there is another reason to undock it ?) Quote: You are claiming that a PLEX should be protected from being handled without care. I say thats the holders responsabillity, not CCP's. CCP IS the holder. Under the EULA you own nothing in EVE. Thats the only reason that this is all entirely legal. You are either having difficulties with English, or just thinking in general. The OWNER, at all times, is CCP. The HOLDER is the person who has it in his hangar or cargo. Quote: The major issue at hand is people being too dense to understand they got a new way of making ISK, if done correct, that they DO NOT NEED TO USE AT ALL! This pretty much sums up your brain here I need not say more. Like i said, add to the discussion or get off. ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
Shawna Gray Gallente	Posted - 2010.08.10 10:18:00 - [612] Originally by: WhiteSavage ...Individual stupidity has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. get wit the program. Individual stupidity is the essence here. CCP provides a method of trading that can be done in perfect safety. They just dont protect you from yourself and your greed.
Edible Bandaid Gallente Crimson Nation	Posted - 2010.08.10 10:19:00 - [613] If a store offered you a giftcard, and then told the public that they can steal said giftcards from you outside their doors, on the 1 consdition that they split the giftcards, 50/50 with the store... people would say "WAIT A SECOND" But in EVE... they flibble-flabbel. The stupidity in this thread amazes even me. ___________________________________ WHHYYYYYY
WhiteSavage Gallente Ever Flow Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.10 10:23:00 - [614] Originally by: Shawna Gray Originally by: WhiteSavage ...Individual stupidity has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. get wit the program. Individual stupidity is the essence here. CCP provides a method of trading that can be done in perfect safety. They just dont protect you from yourself and your greed. Actually CCP has gone quite far out of their way so that they profit from your mistakes. Your argument would be valid if CCP did not suddenly decide to change their rules and make a few thousand extra dollars. The argument here is not that said losers failed to understand game mechanics and made an incredibly bad decision. THe argument at hand is that CCP has created a system where they profit real money off the losses of in-game items by players through CCP's designed mechanics. Why should PLEXES be in-game items in the first place?
Shawna Gray Gallente	Posted - 2010.08.10 10:26:00 - [615] Originally by: Edible Bandaid If a store offered you a giftcard, and then told the public that they can steal said giftcards from you outside their doors, on the 1 consdition that they split the giftcards, 50/50 with the store... people would say "WAIT A SECOND" But in EVE... they flibble-flabbel. The stupidity in this thread amazes even me. The store offers to keep the gift card inside the store so it can never be stolen and warns you that there are several people with rocket launchers outside the store hoping to kill you when you go outside. However you chose to ignore that warning and stuff your gift card in your pocket instead.
Edible Bandaid Gallente Crimson Nation	Posted - 2010.08.10 10:30:00 - [616] Edited by: Edible Bandaid on 10/08/2010 10:32:25 Originally by: Shawna Gray Originally by: Edible Bandaid If a store offered you a giftcard, and then told the public that they can steal said giftcards from you outside their doors, on the 1 consdition that they split the giftcards, 50/50 with the store... people would say "WAIT A SECOND" But in EVE... they flibble-flabbel. The stupidity in this thread amazes even me. The store offers to keep the gift card inside the store so it can never be stolen and warns you that there are several people with rocket launchers outside the store hoping to kill you when you go outside. However you chose to ignore that warning and stuff your gift card in your pocket instead. Actually as you know, they did neither. You are expected to know all mechanics related to and attached to the gift card. And I believe your overlooking the point that CCP pre-setup this precarious situation in the first place? Also, if PLEXES are like any other commodity then why does CCP not allow plex to be scammed? ___________________________________ WHHYYYYYY
Shawna Gray Gallente	Posted - 2010.08.10 10:32:00 - [617] Originally by: WhiteSavage THe argument at hand is that CCP has created a system where they profit real money off the losses of in-game items by players through CCP's designed mechanics. So what? Its always the choice of the player to risk it or not. Its as immoral as a slotmachine. Quote: Why should PLEXES be in-game items in the first place? Why not? The players obviously like it or they would not use it.
Shawna Gray Gallente	Posted - 2010.08.10 10:37:00 - [618] Originally by: Edible Bandaid Also, if PLEXES are like any other commodity then why does CCP not allow plex to be scammed? You can scam with plexes all you want. It was possible before the last change to plexes too. You are confusing them with GTC's.
WhiteSavage Gallente Ever Flow Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.10 10:45:00 - [619] Originally by: Shawna Gray Originally by: WhiteSavage THe argument at hand is that CCP has created a system where they profit real money off the losses of in-game items by players through CCP's designed mechanics. So what? Its always the choice of the player to risk it or not. Its as immoral as a slot-machine. Except this is not a casino, and people do not come here for the thrill of gambling. Under your own argument, instead of ATM machines their should be slots... and if you lose... the bank keeps your money. This is not a game of roulette, this is a software program that we pay a monthly fee for. Similarly gambling is illegal in most states. Lets say you walked onto a beach and I punched you in the face. Under your own argument, it was your choice to walk onto the beach, you saw me standing there, you knew i might punch you. Thus it is your fault that i punched you not mine. Originally by: Shawna Gray Quote: Why should PLEXES be in-game items in the first place? Why not? The players obviously like it or they would not use it. Plexes are ingame items because CCP decided to make them that way. They were implemented that way from day 1. YOu know this of course... Nobody has "liked it" or "disliked it." Surely your argument is gest? Also I believe u are an alt of another dude thats been arguing in here. Either that or you have the exact same writing style (English Major) pretty lame.
FlameGlow Rebellion Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.10 10:46:00 - [620] RL experiment: 1)Take 20$ 2)Toss it in a fire 3)Apparently US government just robbed you for 20$ 4)Demand to make unburnable 20$, give you another 20$, donate 20$ to charity, or whatever PLEX in eve is the same, a sort of currency note with guaranteed value in gametime(just as RL currencies had a value in gold once), when it was destroyed nobody owes you anything Originally by: CCP Manifest Imploding servers are not a part of our business model.

Edible Bandaid Gallente Crimson Nation	Posted - 2010.08.10 10:47:00 - [621] Originally by: Shawna Gray Originally by: Edible Bandaid Also, if PLEXES are like any other commodity then why does CCP not allow plex to be scammed? You can scam with plexes all you want. It was possible before the last change to plexes too. You are confusing them with GTC's. Alright, I was unaware. Now answer my other questions please. The fact that you are sidestepping the argument is a point in of itself. I think you care that you are right and I am wrong much more then the facts we are actually arguing over. ___________________________________ WHHYYYYYY
Totally Rafiki Amarr Crimson Nation	Posted - 2010.08.10 10:50:00 - [622] Originally by: FlameGlow RL experiment: 1)Take 20$ 2)Toss it in a fire 3)Apparently US government just robbed you for 20$ 4)Demand to make unburnable 20$, give you another 20$, donate 20$ to charity, or whatever PLEX in eve is the same, a sort of currency note with guaranteed value in gametime(just as RL currencies had a value in gold once), when it was destroyed nobody owes you anything Except whats happening is $20 magically appears in the governments bank account? Yeah see that illustration doesn't make sense. ......... Verba Non Facta
FlameGlow Rebellion Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.10 10:56:00 - [623] Originally by: Totally Rafiki Originally by: FlameGlow RL experiment: 1)Take 20$ 2)Toss it in a fire 3)Apparently US government just robbed you for 20$ 4)Demand to make unburnable 20$, give you another 20$, donate 20$ to charity, or whatever PLEX in eve is the same, a sort of currency note with guaranteed value in gametime(just as RL currencies had a value in gold once), when it was destroyed nobody owes you anything Except whats happening is $20 magically appears in the governments bank account? Yeah see that illustration doesn't make sense. $20 worth of something already are in government's bank account, it was there from the time your 20$ was printed Originally by: CCP Manifest Imploding servers are not a part of our business model.
Shawna Gray Gallente	Posted - 2010.08.10 10:57:00 - [624] Edited by: Shawna Gray on 10/08/2010 10:58:18 Originally by: WhiteSavage Except this is not a casino, and people do not come here for the thrill of gambling. But they must do since they buy plexes and undock with them. Quote: Under your own argument, instead of ATM machines their should be slots... and if you lose... the bank keeps your money. This is not a game of roulette, this is a software program that we pay a monthly fee for. Similarly gambling is illegal in most states. I'm sure many would play slot machines in banks if there was one there. But if that was their entire service i would actually have the brains to not use their service. If you had an actual interest in comparing it to EVE, the use of slotmachines would be completely optional. Quote: Lets say you walked onto a beach and I punched you in the face. Under your own argument, it was your choice to walk onto the beach, you saw me standing there, you knew i might punch you. Thus it is your fault that i punched you not mine. Totally unrelated but using your arguments i would then sue the owner of the beach for providing me with such an obviously dangerous activity. Quote: Plexes are ingame items because CCP decided to make them that way. They were implemented that way from day 1. YOu know this of course... Nobody has "liked it" or "disliked it." Surely your argument is gest? If you dont like a service you dont buy it. If i went to a restaurant and got offered a steak or a plate of dog** i would take the steak instead of complaining about the dog. If you hate plexes buy a GTC or god forbid work for 10 min and pay for your gametime. Quote:** Also I believe u are an alt of another dude thats been arguing in here. Either that or you have the exact same writing style (English Major) pretty lame. You can believe what you want.
Corbeau Lenoir ZER0. IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.10 11:00:00 - [625] LOL@stupid people. Evolution in it's finest. Kestrel pilot got what he deserved.
Sanctimus Sol	Posted - 2010.08.10 11:03:00 - [626] What if all those plexes had dropped and you recovered them? If you're a US citizen, you're required to report annual income from a single source over the amount of (I think) USD $600. A few years ago, some congressmen in the US actually tried to pass a bill that would allow the government to tax virtual assets in MMOs. So now we have a gaming company that has gone past the blurry line of virtual currency and property. In fact, acting as a vehicle of monetary exchange... Can't help but wonder if CCP has opened Pandora's Box on this.
Shawna Gray Gallente	Posted - 2010.08.10 11:08:00 - [627] Edited by: Shawna Gray on 10/08/2010 11:08:00 Originally by: Sanctimus Sol What if all those plexes had dropped and you recovered them? If you're a US citizen, you're required to report annual income from a single source over the amount of (I think) USD $600. A few years ago, some congressmen in the US actually tried to pass a bill that would allow the government to tax virtual assets in MMOs. So now we have a gaming company that has gone past the blurry line of virtual currency and property. In fact, acting as a vehicle of monetary exchange... Can't help but wonder if CCP has opened Pandora's Box on this. They only have ISK value. I would be happy to pay my taxes in imaginary spaceship money.
Musical Fist Gallente NAP Coalition	Posted - 2010.08.10 11:26:00 - [628] I always knew wardeccing someone was an exploit, hope CCP deal with this immediately -- Recruitment now open!!
Doctor Ungabungas Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.08.10 11:28:00 - [629] Originally by: Sanctimus Sol So now we have a gaming company that has gone past the blurry line of virtual currency and property. In fact, acting as a vehicle of monetary exchange... It's no different to buying an in-game spaceship with real money. DDO has been doing in-game/real money transactions for quite a while now.
Marlona Sky D00M. Excessum Messor	Posted - 2010.08.10 11:43:00 - [630] I have thought about this for a good while now and read a lot of opinions on the matter. The fact is, the PLEX represents 30 days of game time. There is no spinning that, it is what it is. It is all it can be used for. Yes you can put it on the market and trade it and all that, but what is the PLEX used for? To add 30 days of game time to an account. Right now there are who knows how many PLEX in game that are on the market or elsewhere, that represent game time that has been paid for. This is a lot of money already in CCP's bank account. They do not have to make good on any PLEX till a player uses it to get the 30 days game time. I do like how they can now be moved in ships and be put in the game in any station. What I do not like is that they can be destroyed, at all. I think they should be impossible to be destroyed. Even if you pop a wreck that has PLEX in it, it should drop a secure can that anyone can access. That can should be able to be probed easily as well. Also it should never disappear, never. The PLEX or the can it is in, till it is emptied. The bottom line is that money was paid for service and CCP has, and I am sure they thought about this, taken a step to have it where service that was paid for, can not be honored. I don't care if Joe Smith bought the code with real money, then entered the code to make PLEX. Then Joe lost his kestrel moving it. That paid for service should not have a way of becoming void. Everyone in the game would just be as happy with killing people with it, trading, market, etc with the PLEX. But having it possible to not honor the service paid for is underhanded. Just my opinion, but I think PLEX should be indestructible and never disappear. It should never leave the game in any form unless the a pilot right clicks on it to add to his account play time. I am sure to get flamed but there you have it. Even if a player bio-masses himself and he has PLEX as part of his assets, whatever system the PLEX is at, should spawn somewhere in a can that can be probed, can never disappearing from game till said PLEX is looted.

Aerilis Gallente Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2010.08.10 11:50:00 - [631] Originally by: Shawna Gray Edited by: Shawna Gray on 10/08/2010 10:27:12 Originally by: Edible Bandaid If a store offered you a giftcard, and then told the public that they can steal said giftcards from you outside their doors, on the 1 consdition that they split the giftcards, 50/50 with the store... people would say "WAIT A SECOND" But in EVE... they flibble-flabbel. The stupidity in this thread amazes even me. The store offers to keep the gift card inside the store so it can never be stolen and warns you that there are several people with rocket launchers outside the store hoping to kill you when you go outside. However you chose to ignore that warning and stuff your gift card in your pocket instead. The stupidity in this thread amazes even me. You know, both analogies are correct. Which is why no real life analogy propsed so far fits this issue. It's just way different from any real life situation we might experience. Stop calling each other stupid :/
Brannor McThife Caldari Brotherhood of the Ancients	Posted - 2010.08.10 11:56:00 - [632] Originally by: Marlona Sky ... Well said. If they are destroyed, make it spawn somewhere on a rat, or in an asteroid, or wherever. Until used, PLEX should not be able to be deleted. -G
achoura	Posted - 2010.08.10 11:57:00 - [633] Not it's not. It's like withdrawing a large sum of money from the bank then ignoring the warning they give you only to be mugged upon exiting the bank. Does CCP even warn player who attempt to undock with plexes in the hold that they could loose their money? *The EVE servers and their patches* [b]"the data does not seem to support that polished quality sells b
CyberGh0st Minmatar Ara Veritas	Posted - 2010.08.10 11:59:00 - [634] Edited by: CyberGh0st on 10/08/2010 12:08:36 Originally by: Marlona Sky I have thought about this for a good while now and read a lot of opinions on the matter. The fact is, the PLEX represents 30 days of game time. There is no spinning that, it is what it is. It is all it can be used for. Yes you can put it on the market and trade it and all that, but what is the PLEX used for? To add 30 days of game time to an account. Right now there are who knows how many PLEX in game that are on the market or elsewhere, that represent game time that has been paid for. This is a lot of money already in CCP's bank account. They do not have to make good on any PLEX till a player uses it to get the 30 days game time. I do like how they can now be moved in ships and be put in the game in any station. What I do not like is that they can be destroyed, at all. I think they should be impossible to be destroyed. Even if you pop a wreck that has PLEX in it, it should drop a secure can that anyone can access. That can should be able to be probed easily as well. Also it should never disappear, never. The PLEX or the can it is in, till it is emptied. The bottom line is that money was paid for service and CCP has, and I am sure they thought about this, taken a step to have it where service that was paid for, can not be honored. I don't care if Joe Smith bought the code with real money, then entered the code to make PLEX. Then Joe lost his kestrel moving it. That paid for service should not have a way of becoming void. Everyone in the game would just be as happy with killing people with it, trading, market, etc with the PLEX. But having it possible to not honor the service paid for is underhanded. Just my opinion, but I think PLEX should be indestructible and never disappear. It should never leave the game in any form unless the a pilot right clicks on it to add to his account play time. I am sure to get flamed but there you have it. Even if a player bio-masses himself and he has PLEX as part of his assets, whatever system the PLEX is at, should spawn somewhere in a can that can be probed, can never disappearing from game till said PLEX is looted. So you propose a 100% drop rate? Hmm, that, as already mentioned, would encourage suicide ganking on all plex transports, I don't like it. http://www.mmodata.net Favorite MMO's : DAoC Pre-TOA-NF / SWG Pre-CU-NGE
VooDooPimp	Posted - 2010.08.10 12:00:00 - [635] people in EVE love to type
Wacktopia Dark Side Of The Womb Focused Intentions	Posted - 2010.08.10 12:01:00 - [636] Originally by: achoura Not it's not. It's like withdrawing a large sum of money from the bank then ignoring the warning they give you only to be mugged upon exiting the bank. Does CCP even warn player who attempt to undock with plexes in the hold that they could loose their money? Does the bank warn you that you could get mugged as soon as you leave?
Marlona Sky D00M. Excessum Messor	Posted - 2010.08.10 12:02:00 - [637] Originally by: CyberGh0st Originally by: Marlona Sky I have thought about this for a good while now and read a lot of opinions on the matter. The fact is, the PLEX represents 30 days of game time. There is no spinning that, it is what it is. It is all it can be used for. Yes you can put it on the market and trade it and all that, but what is the PLEX used for? To add 30 days of game time to an account. Right now there are who knows how many PLEX in game that are on the market or elsewhere, that represent game time that has been paid for. This is a lot of money already in CCP's bank account. They do not have to make good on any PLEX till a player uses it to get the 30 days game time. I do like how they can now be moved in ships and be put in the game in any station. What I do not like is that they can be destroyed, at all. I think they should be impossible to be destroyed. Even if you pop a wreck that has PLEX in it, it should drop a secure can that anyone can access. That can should be able to be probed easily as well. Also it should never disappear, never. The PLEX or the can it is in, till it is emptied. The bottom line is that money was paid for service and CCP has, and I am sure they thought about this, taken a step to have it where service that was paid for, can not be honored. I don't care if Joe Smith bought the code with real money, then entered the code to make PLEX. Then Joe lost his kestrel moving it. That paid for service should not have a way of becoming void. Everyone in the game would just be as happy with killing people with it, trading, market, etc with the PLEX. But having it possible to not honor the service paid for is underhanded. Just my opinion, but I think PLEX should be indestructible and never disappear. It should never leave the game in any form unless the a pilot right clicks on it to add to his account play time. I am sure to get flamed but there you have it. Even if a player bio-masses himself and he has PLEX as part of his assets, whatever system the PLEX is at, should spawn somewhere in a can that can be probed, can never disappearing from game till said PLEX is looted. So you propose a 100% drop rate? Hmm, that, as already mentioned, would encourage suicide ganking on all plex transports, I don't like it. The end result of how the PLEX stayed in game is up for debate but the bottom line is that it should stay in game no matter what. In my opinion of course. It could be on some random rat drop in a level 3 mission for all I care. It should never leave the game unless it is because a player used it to add the 30 days game time.
Shawna Gray Gallente	Posted - 2010.08.10 12:04:00 - [638] Originally by: achoura Does CCP even warn player who attempt to undock with plexes in the hold that they could loose their money? What!!???!!! Do you mean its possible to blow up ships in this game?
achoura	Posted - 2010.08.10 12:08:00 - [639] Originally by: Wacktopia Originally by: achoura Not it's not. It's like withdrawing a large sum of money from the bank then ignoring the warning they give you only to be mugged upon exiting the bank. Does CCP even warn player who attempt to undock with plexes in the hold that they could loose their money? Does the bank warn you that you could get mugged as soon as you leave? If you take enough money out most (for the very wealthy at least) will offer you a guard to escort you to your car. taking 22bil out of jita in a frig i as daft as withdrawing 500k when you know people are waiting to steal it. So, does the company which took money for services, the company which provides undock warnings for aggression on ship with no monetary value, provide said warning for the potential loss of service for which the customer has already paid? *The EVE servers and their patches* [b]"the data does not seem to support that polished quality sells b
CyberGh0st Minmatar Ara Veritas	Posted - 2010.08.10 12:17:00 - [640] CCP is getting greedy, I have to agree with that, but you don't HAVE to move the plex around, so while it is shady business practice from CCP, you have it in your own hands to get them destroyed or not. If CCP really needs or wants that extra buck from players who are careless anyway, I'd say let them have it. I prefer this over an items shop or paid expansions. Now, with the extra cash, perhaps CCP can start fixing the lag :p This thread is now about the lag :) http://www.mmodata.net Favorite MMO's : DAoC Pre-TOA-NF / SWG Pre-CU-NGE

Raneru Euphoria Released	Posted - 2010.08.10 12:17:00 - [641] Why is there a massive thread on this? If the item destroyed was an Estamels Invuln instead of 74 PLEX (worth roughly the same) would there have been a 20+ page thread? This stuff happens every single day all over eve, nothing to see here.
Nobzy	Posted - 2010.08.10 13:24:00 - [642] Edited by: Nobzy on 10/08/2010 13:25:32 Edited by: Nobzy on 10/08/2010 13:24:18 I am seriously in awe how people keep making up stuff to argue over this. People keep saying "a binding contract, to provide 30 days of game time" When you give real money, for an ETC, you get exactly that. A code that entitles you to 30 days of game time. The second the ETC pops in your reach, every signle bit of any sort of legal obligation ends here. I will even bold this for you so you can't miss it; You got what you paid for. From this point onward, it's all up to you what you do with it. If you decide to convert it in to a plex, be my and CCPs guest. Go for it. If you decide to add the 30 days to your account. No prob. Give it to a friend? Sure why not. Buy 73 more and undock in a frigate in the busiest system in all of EVE. Nothing's stopping you. You have the freedom of choice. From the in-game plex buyers point of view, you are spending virtual money, for a virtual item, that has the property of adding 30 days to your account if you so will. No problem there, from any legal or moral or ethical standpoint. Now, anyone who cannot understand, does not want to understand, or does understand but tries to go around it, is either biased by some sort of self gain, or is here just to troll. So if you would all just stop making stuff up and arguing over semantics and analogies and perhaps pull your heads out of your asses and read this post as many times it takes for you to get how blatantly simple this is, and how simply put, you are just goddamn plain wrong. I would also like note, that any troll and flame and obscure retort trying to void the truth in this post is doomed to fail, and you yourselves know it. If you are truly unable to grasp it, then it would be better for everyone if you just didn't voice it out any longer. Have a nice day!
Jack Gilligan Caldari 1st Cavalry Division Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.08.10 13:43:00 - [643] CCP's motivation to making plexes destructible is clear: They got paid $1,200 for a service they now don't have to render. And it's fishy that out of all those plexes not a single ONE dropped in loot... How much you wanna bet they have a higher chance of blowing up with a ship than other items? While the buyer was a blithering moronic tool to undock with THAT in the hold, if he paid for them with a credit card, he should be contacting his bank to file a charge back request. Game mechanics, EULA, or whatnot, CCP cannot put those ahead of their merchant agreement they have to sign with the credit card companies in order to accept and process them...
Stede Bonnet Minmatar R E D E M P T I O N Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.10 13:56:00 - [644] Originally by: Jack Gilligan CCP's motivation to making plexes destructible is clear: They got paid $1,200 for a service they now don't have to render. And it's fishy that out of all those plexes not a single ONE dropped in loot... How much you wanna bet they have a higher chance of blowing up with a ship than other items? While the buyer was a blithering moronic tool to undock with THAT in the hold, if he paid for them with a credit card, he should be contacting his bank to file a charge back request. Game mechanics, EULA, or whatnot, CCP cannot put those ahead of their merchant agreement they have to sign with the credit card companies in order to accept and process them... Were you born ******ed or did you get dropped on your head too many times? CCP will win that chargeback, without a doubt. The customer got what they paid for, and then did something stupid with it. If you buy an ipod from best buy with a credit card and then you smash it with a hammer on purpose whos fault is it that the ipod is in pieces? _______________________________________________ Da time be now, Rise up me enslaved brethren. Rise up and fight, Ye darks time is numbered. SEEEEYYYLLLLAAAAAA!
King Aires Reliables Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.08.10 13:58:00 - [645] Originally by: Raneru Why is there a massive thread on this? If the item destroyed was an Estamels Invuln instead of 74 PLEX (worth roughly the same) would there have been a 20+ page thread? This stuff happens every single day all over eve, nothing to see here. Can you turn in a Estamel's Invuln to get 6 years of game time... no. The mod has a purpose, the PLEX has a UNIQUE purpose, that is why they are different. It would be devestating to the game if we could all pony up real cash and purchase a Estamel's Invuln, you can, indirectly and through a lot of effort. Again another reason to not have PLEX in the game at all. The views expressed above are not those of my corp or an expression of where my corp stands.
Una Achura	Posted - 2010.08.10 14:02:00 - [646] Originally by: King Aires Originally by: Raneru Why is there a massive thread on this? If the item destroyed was an Estamels Invuln instead of 74 PLEX (worth roughly the same) would there have been a 20+ page thread? This stuff happens every single day all over eve, nothing to see here. Can you turn in a Estamel's Invuln to get 6 years of game time... no. The mod has a purpose, the PLEX has a UNIQUE purpose, that is why they are different. Yes you can, you sell it and buy 74 PLEX. Sheesh...
Amber Road Caldari Eve Fiends	Posted - 2010.08.10 14:03:00 - [647] Originally by: WhiteSavage This is kind of a big deal and your arguments are beyond grasping at straws. We are saying if I pay CCP for $1 worth of gametime i expect $1 worth of game-time. Do you disagree? People paid CCP for the game-code. Game code can be used for time OR used as an Item to make quick iskies with. Once converted it is now an ITEM used to MAKE ISK and no longer a game code. The intent on purchase was NOT to extend game time it was to make isk. Why does everyone ignore the intent part. Yes the item would have been used to add 30days time to someone else account but people who convert ETC's to plex (or buy 75 of them in jita because they are cheap and are now going to resell them somewhere else) are intending to use them as an ITEM to make isk. I'd bet that the idiot that lost them didn't even pay cash for em. Just saw them as another trade route to make iskies with. Just another ITEM.
Mallui Mallard	Posted - 2010.08.10 14:07:00 - [648] Originally by: Raneru Why is there a massive thread on this? If the item destroyed was an Estamels Invuln instead of 74 PLEX (worth roughly the same) would there have been a 20+ page thread? This stuff happens every single day all over eve, nothing to see here. People keep missing the point by a mile. Nobody cares some random pilot they never knew before lost 74 plexes, what they care is that the plexes got destroyed. I don't see why people try bringing analogies up, specially when the analogies are not correct applied. It's not hard to understand the issue that you MUST have a analogy to simplify things. People are saying (and I agree) that PLEXes should always drop. If pilot X lost got his ship blown up full of PLEXes, someone should be able to scoop them up and use them, that way they are not lost. As it stands, 6 years of potential PAID (again, who innitially paid for them is irrelevant) play time evaporated.
Una Achura	Posted - 2010.08.10 14:08:00 - [649] Originally by: Jack Gilligan CCP's motivation to making plexes destructible is clear: They got paid $1,200 for a service they now don't have to render. The house always wins when you Choose to gamble... This is perfectly fair. Quote: And it's fishy that out of all those plexes not a single ONE dropped in loot... How much you wanna bet they have a higher chance of blowing up with a ship than other items? I'd bet exactly nothing.. read the thread, it's been explained several times that stacked items have a 50/50 chance of all dropping or all blowing, but a 0% chance that some but not all drop... Because that stack is ONE ITEM for the purpose of the calculation.
Jack Gilligan Caldari 1st Cavalry Division Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.08.10 14:08:00 - [650] Originally by: King Aires Originally by: Raneru Why is there a massive thread on this? If the item destroyed was an Estamels Invuln instead of 74 PLEX (worth roughly the same) would there have been a 20+ page thread? This stuff happens every single day all over eve, nothing to see here. Can you turn in a Estamel's Invuln to get 6 years of game time... no. The mod has a purpose, the PLEX has a UNIQUE purpose, that is why they are different. It would be devestating to the game if we could all pony up real cash and purchase a Estamel's Invuln, you can, indirectly and through a lot of effort. Again another reason to not have PLEX in the game at all. Oh, I don't disagree. I am against RMT. But, yes, the fool of a customer would very likely win such a chargeback dispute. To the credit card company the transaction was X dollars for a code for Y gametime. They don't care about ingame mechanics, etc. And getting blown up by others isn't the same as smashing something you bought with a hammer, it's more akin to being mugged outside the store and being robbed of the plasma TV you just bought. Some credit cards offer theft protection and even insurance protection on purchases. In this case, because CCP ALLOWS for this behavior in game, they would, in a dispute, bear some responsibility. Stuff like this is only going to come up more and more as MMO publishers get increasingly greedy with real cash for virtual goods and setting up "macrotranscam" toll booths all over the place. Which is why we'd be better off without RMT entirely.

Sarina Berghil Minmatar New Zion Judge Advocate	Posted - 2010.08.10 14:55:00 - [651] Originally by: Una Achura Originally by: King Aires Originally by: Raneru Why is there a massive thread on this? If the item destroyed was an Estamels Invuln instead of 74 PLEX (worth roughly the same) would there have been a 20+ page thread? This stuff happens every single day all over eve, nothing to see here. Can you turn in a Estamel's Invuln to get 6 years of game time... no. The mod has a purpose, the PLEX has a UNIQUE purpose, that is why they are different. Yes you can, you sell it and buy 74 PLEX. Sheesh... You can choose to trade the faction mod into game time, but only as far as there are other players willing to make that trade. And that can only happen if players are willing to purchase PLEX'es with real cash. There's a limit to those transactions, the PLEX'es don't just appear out of nowhere. You can't directly turn the mod into game time. Thats a real difference between ISK and game time, ISK and real money. There is no direct conversion happening. So no you can not directly turn a faction mod into game time, as you can turn a PLEX into game time. If you start buying a lot of PLEX'es in that way, prices will eventually start to go up and you get less game time for your effort. Gambling you say? If I choose to gamble, and I sometimes do, I want to know the exact odds. If I feel those odds are skewed or the house is winning some extra on the side in some other way, I'll find another casino. I'd most likely report them to the cops as well.
stevieisbest Caldari Pilots Of Honour Aeternus.	Posted - 2010.08.10 15:19:00 - [652] My question on this whole situation is. Where was that person goign with all those plexes?? Isn't Jita basicaly the best place to sell them. Especially that many of them?
Khors Amtek Inc	Posted - 2010.08.10 15:23:00 - [653] Originally by: stevieisbest My question on this whole situation is. Where was that person goign with all those plexes?? Isn't Jita basicaly the best place to sell them. Especially that many of them? Could it possibly be that he actually warped to the jita station after arriving there and just didn't land in docking range?
Shawna Gray Gallente	Posted - 2010.08.10 15:27:00 - [654] Edited by: Shawna Gray on 10/08/2010 15:28:25 Originally by: Jack Gilligan And getting blown up by others isn't the same as smashing something you bought with a hammer, it's more akin to being mugged outside the store and being robbed of the plasma TV you just bought. Real world analogies suck, but its more like you buy a plasma TV, bring it to a warzone and go right up to the enemy to show them your new purchase. Then when they shoot your plasma TV into little tiny pieces you go back to the store and demand a new TV. Quote: My question on this whole situation is. Where was that person goign with all those plexes?? Isn't Jita basicaly the best place to sell them. Especially that many of them? No you can get higher prices for them elsewhere. But they probably sell faster in Jita.
Avius Rhinstien	Posted - 2010.08.10 15:57:00 - [655] Welcome to the real world. Lets say that it wasn't PLEX but Visa gift cards, you bought 11 visa gift cards at $100 each, now you then go and lose the cards. Visa will not refund you in anyway, shape or form, tough luck dont be stupid next time. Did CCP want this to happen? probably not, you'd think something like this wouldn't happen because of common scence. But hey if they have to have signs telling people not to touch electrified wires (because someone was stupid enough to go and fry themsleves) then I guess CCP will have to put up a sign by Jita 4-4 "warning dont take large sums of PLEX out in a gankable frigate"
King Aires Reliables Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.08.10 16:24:00 - [656] Actually, all of you CCP supporters are dead wrong. Quoted directly from the Mastercard Repower pre-paid gift card FAQ: Quote: Q. I can't find my MasterCard Everyday Prepaid Card. What should I do? A. When you register your MasterCard Everyday Prepaid Card, your issuer can use your personal information to issue you a replacement card. Be sure to keep a record of the card number. Contact the issuer of your card immediately to report your lost or stolen card. Your issuer may need this information to cancel the card and issue a replacement. You can also contact Emergency Services for additional assistance. Rest assured that registered MasterCard Everyday Prepaid Cards include Zero Liability* protection. In the event your card is lost or stolen, your card issuer will not hold you responsible for unauthorized purchases made on your card.* Where the hell is our replacement PLEX CCP? The views expressed above are not those of my corp or an expression of where my corp stands.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.10 16:26:00 - [657] Originally by: WhiteSavage Originally by: Tippia People keep referring to this as a change, when it's really not. People were just given more choices on how they wanted to enact the existing mechanics. Actually now in-game items that are, in exchange for rl money, unlike everything else in this game... give you a preset amount of game-time can be destroyed to the gain of CCP and no-one else. What "now?" This has always been the case. Nothing has changed in that regard. Quote: ...Individual stupidity has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Individual stupidity has everything to do with the decision at hand because the fate of those PLEXes is 100% in the hands of the individual player, as it has always been since PLEXes were introduced. Quote: Why should PLEXES be in-game items in the first place? See? Now you're getting somewhere! If you want to argue about PLEXes, then you need to back to the day they were introduced. The events that spawned this thread are rather irrelevant to that question because nothing has happened that haven't been possible since day one ù it just happened in a particularly funny way. For the "Outrage"-side this entire thread boils down to this: PLEXes as they were first designed, should not have been brought into the game. That is the essence of their argument. You can call it wicked on CCP's part and rant on about drop rates and all of that, but the fact remains that nothing new has happened here ù PLEXes were destroyed, and some silly player absolved CCP from providing 30+ N days of game timeà but that has been possible from the very first day PLEXes were introduced. Hell, it was actually possible long before thatà but never mind. So it can't "suddenly" have become an issue now; it must have been an issue from the very start, so you need to go back and argue exactly that: PLEXes should perhaps not have been introduced at all. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Avius Rhinstien	Posted - 2010.08.10 16:29:00 - [658] Originally by: King Aires Actually, all of you CCP supporters are dead wrong. Quoted directly from the Mastercard Repower pre-paid gift card FAQ: Quote: Q. I can't find my MasterCard Everyday Prepaid Card. What should I do? A. When you register your MasterCard Everyday Prepaid Card, your issuer can use your personal information to issue you a replacement card. Be sure to keep a record of the card number. Contact the issuer of your card immediately to report your lost or stolen card. Your issuer may need this information to cancel the card and issue a replacement. You can also contact Emergency Services for additional assistance. Rest assured that registered MasterCard Everyday Prepaid Cards include Zero Liability* protection. In the event your card is lost or stolen, your card issuer will not hold you responsible for unauthorized purchases made on your card.* Where the hell is our replacement PLEX CCP? You need to register your pre-paid gift card, just like in order to get the 30 days of game time you have to use the PLEX, simply buying it does not mean it is registered
Gravemind GER Caldari Ganymede Solutions Inc.	Posted - 2010.08.10 16:53:00 - [659] Help me, this is Awful! Quit the whining and dont be stupid to carry plex in your cargo! The easiest way to counter this issue is to NOT do it!
BeachParty Caldari Semi Precious	Posted - 2010.08.10 17:22:00 - [660] I guess the real questions is this.... Is warp to 0 working as intended, after all this is what got the Kestral killed. He warped in from Sobaseki (aprox spelling) and came up short on the undock.

Corbeau Lenoir ZER0. IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.10 17:42:00 - [661] I'm just amazed, how people are tying to avoid responsibility for their own actions. It's your choice to convert GTC to PLEX, it's your choice to put PLEX in cargo, it's your choice to undock, it's your choice to fly to Jita while wardeced. If you are not mature enough to take responsibility for your own actions, then maybe you shouldn't play EVE at all.
Mari Seles	Posted - 2010.08.10 17:47:00 - [662] I'm amazed at how many people fail to grasp what CCP mean when they say they want the plex to behave like every other item in the game. Contrary to popular believe it doesn't mean it being worth the same as every other item in game. It simply means that no extra code is used to make it behave any different than any other item in game(beyond it's funktion obviously) And since they don't want to add extra code, that means no 100% drop rate. Also if people want to give CCP free money? Good for them and CCP, they have my full support.
Xpaulusx	Posted - 2010.08.10 18:12:00 - [663] Plex lost moving in ship,not droped or cycled into the game makes CCP the biggest scammers in the game world, as if there reputation isn't bad enough already
Mallui Mallard	Posted - 2010.08.10 18:43:00 - [664] Edited by: Mallui Mallard on 10/08/2010 18:44:54 Originally by: Mari Seles I'm amazed at how many people fail to grasp what CCP mean when they say they want the plex to behave like every other item in the game. Contrary to popular believe it doesn't mean it being worth the same as every other item in game. It simply means that no extra code is used to make it behave any different than any other item in game(beyond it's funktion obviously) And since they don't want to add extra code, that means no 100% drop rate. Also if people want to give CCP free money? Good for them and CCP, they have my full support. Whoever, it doesn't affect only the kestrel pilot. It affect every single player playing EvE right now, but people are not looking at the big picture. The implications of this incident are pretty big but if you want a extremely simplified version, had the PLEXes dropped instead of blowing up, the 0rphans or w/e could have looted and put it up for sale really cheap on Jita 4-4. Maybe cheap PLEXes that YOU could have bought. YOU lost 74 potential PLEXes you could buy and use. But you can't buy them now, can you? Because EvE game algorithms decided to be a **** and erase the PLEXes from the game. Think of this way: How many players activaly play the game? Let's say 41,000 (very conservative number)? Everyone of them lost a potential 1 hour and a 15 minutes of play time because someone got his Kestrel blown up in Jita.
Jade Knight07	Posted - 2010.08.10 18:47:00 - [665] Just wanted to point out that they players who sold the PLEX's on the market did get their 300 million+ for each one. Also I reassert that no one has to risk moving a PLEX. Though is someone wants to buy a PLEX in a major market hub like jita for low price and move it somewhere they will sell for a lot more than around 300 million. That risk is theirs to take. CCP has only extended the risk/reward benefits to PLEX's now. People can argue all day long that for some reason a PLEX, due to the fact it provides 30 days of game play is unique and should get special treatment, should be indestructible but does that mean that everything you can buy with isk should be indestructible? I think not. For everyone that wants a 100% drop rate, I can only assume you are a pirate or a ganker, hoping to score 30 days of game time from a totally unique mechanism that makes PLEX's always drop. Lastly, greed can blind anyone. From the player who bought the PLEX's on the market so he could move them to a region where they would sell for a lot more. To the Pirates blindly posting in this thread that PLEX's should have a 100% drop rate or flat our be indestructible. Try and remember the players who sold the PLEX's on the market so they could fill their wallets with isk got exactly what their $15 paid for. Just because the person who bought them was looking to make more isk doesnÆt make anything unfair. What CCP did was simply level the playing field when It comes to PLEX's which could make them more accessible to areas other than, for instance, Jita, Rens, Dodixie, ect. by allowing players to move them once in game (which also voids any contract to them having any value legally speaking). Frankly I think this was a fair move by CCP. I don't think they did it out of sheer greed. The fact of the matter is, if you are careful not a single PLEX will be destroyed. Plus the benefits of being able to move them and not be restricted to the station you spawned it in will be a overall benefit to the player base. /an extra two cents Feel free to tear it to pieces, but while you are doing it at least try and see the whole picture.
Eventy One Magellan Exploration and Survey Mordus Angels	Posted - 2010.08.10 18:50:00 - [666] Originally by: Corbeau Lenoir I'm just amazed, how people are tying to avoid responsibility for their own actions. It's your choice to convert GTC to PLEX, it's your choice to put PLEX in cargo, it's your choice to undock, it's your choice to fly to Jita while wardeced. If you are not mature enough to take responsibility for your own actions, then maybe you shouldn't play EVE at all. At the end of the day you're right - players are responsible for their own actions. The outrages is about how CCP benefits from the stupidity of its player-base. Its not about shifting blame at all.
Mari Seles	Posted - 2010.08.10 18:58:00 - [667] Originally by: Mallui Mallard Whoever, it doesn't affect only the kestrel pilot. It affect every single player playing EvE right now, but people are not looking at the big picture. The implications of this incident are pretty big but if you want a extremely simplified version, had the PLEXes dropped instead of blowing up, the 0rphans or w/e could have looted and put it up for sale really cheap on Jita 4-4. Maybe cheap PLEXes that YOU could have bought. YOU lost 74 potential PLEXes you could buy and use. But you can't buy them now, can you? Because EvE game algorithms decided to be a **** and erase the PLEXes from the game. Think of this way: How many players activaly play the game? Let's say 41,000 (very conservative number)? Everyone of them lost a potential 1 hour and a 15 minutes of play time because someone got his Kestrel blown up in Jita. Or the orphanage could have destroyed the can. If the plexes were undestroyable that could have killed the server since now the plexes were destroyed. Yay for everybody losing several hours more of gametime than the plexes were worth. Everybody! Since the devs would have to find the error, fix it and reboot the server. Aren't you proud of yourself. You measure to save everybody gametime destroyed far more gametime than it could ever save. Only an example of course. But no I see the bigger picture. I just don't care. I fully support the destruction of game time and CCP making money off of people like that. I don't think it's morally reprehensible, I don't think it's illegal. I think it's a great way to remove the chance for bugs and a great way to add a bit more money to the coffers.
Ascendic Brotherhood of Suicidal Priests R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.08.10 19:03:00 - [668] Originally by: democrities Are you people that dense? The whole reason as stated in the dev blog for making PLEXs movable was that they felt a PLEX shouldnt be treated as a special item, but just like any other item. So here you propose, making plex indestructable, thus treating it as a special item, going against the intended purpose of the change in the first place. Clearly you are the one who is dense because anyone who is not a complete moron knows the REAL reason CCP did this was NOT because they wanted to make PLEXes like every other item. No matter what they do PLEXes will NEVER be the same as any other item for simple facts like: They can be applied anywhere They can be bought directly with RL currency from CCP (through distributors) They are not seeded or made by players or droppable from npc's Go soak your head and come back when you have something more thought out to say you fu*king git.
Eventy One Magellan Exploration and Survey Mordus Angels	Posted - 2010.08.10 19:06:00 - [669] Originally by: Ascendic They are not seeded or made by players or droppable from npc's This is a good point. If Plex's are to be treated like everything else, as CCP claims, let them drop from NCP's, or constructed by players.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.08.10 19:13:00 - [670] Originally by: Eventy One constructed by players. Technically PLEXes are constructed by players.

Avius Rhinstien	Posted - 2010.08.10 19:16:00 - [671] I have a place for everybody who is outraged by this situation http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/index.xml BON VOYAGE! we'll miss you
Mari Seles	Posted - 2010.08.10 19:16:00 - [672] Originally by: Ascendic Clearly you are the one who is dense because anyone who is not a complete moron knows the REAL reason CCP did this was NOT because they wanted to make PLEXes like every other item. No matter what they do PLEXes will NEVER be the same as any other item for simple facts like: They can be applied anywhere They can be bought directly with RL currency from CCP (through distributors) They are not seeded or made by players or droppable from npc's Go soak your head and come back when you have something more thought out to say you fu*king git. Seriously I explain what CCP meant on the same freaking page! No Plex aren't like every item in how they are created and how they effect the game. That isn't what CCP wants to be. THe way they want them to be like every other item in the game, is how the mechanics of the game effect them. They want to make those as similiar as possible, nothing more nothing less. It has absolutely nothing to do with drop rate, or how they are procured. The only point you have is that they can be applied everywhere, which is a concecion that hy, they are indeed a wee bit different than normal items in game, as far as procurement goes. If CCP could remove that they would believe me, as it's another way they can get bugs, but they won't precicely because they realize that's going a bit far.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.08.10 19:17:00 - [673] This thread is simply going in circles now, with people rehashing the same arguements over and over. Here are the key points to wrap your head around. 1: Anyone that converts a GTC into a PLEX is fully aware that it has just become a destructible item. 2: Anyone that buys a PLEX from CCP directly is fully aware that it is a destructible in game item. 3: There is nothing that forces a person to place their game time at risk. There are safe and secure methods easily available to everyone for redeeming game time. 4: CCP wished for PLEX to follow the same rules as far as being transportable and destructible as any other game item. Whether it was to streamline that aspect (but obviously not all aspects) of the PLEX operating differently to other in game items in this regard, or to capitalize somewhat on the odd destruction of a PLEX, or quite possibly both. The real reason is, frankly, irrelevant. 5: CCP is well within their legal rights to do this. 6: People that become frantic over the possibility of PLEX being destroyed in game can and will be subject to ridicule from the rest of the EVE community as they will be perceived as people who can not take responsibility for their own actions. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.08.10 19:38:00 - [674] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 10/08/2010 19:39:12 One more point you should consider. If you look carefully at the facts of this particular case, no one lost a penny. The victim purchased the PLEX with ISK (he emptied the alliance wallet to do so). Whoever sold them to him got what they wanted out of it, namely ISK. The victim was taking them to JITA to re-sell them for more ISK, not redeem them for game time. All he lost was his ISK spent, or the potential ISK he would have gained. He lost no money, and did not wish to redeem them himself for game time. If the PLEX had dropped the attackers (or a lucky bystander) could have gained the PLEX. They did not drop, and the attackers immediately destroyed the wreck anyway. So nobody gained free game time, but nobody lost game time or money for that matter. At that point the only people that had invested real money had already gotten what they wanted, namely ISK. The only thing lost in this was ISK, and the market was deprived of having more PLEX available for purchase. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Slug Killer	Posted - 2010.08.10 19:48:00 - [675] Originally by: Una Achura Originally by: Jack Gilligan CCP's motivation to making plexes destructible is clear: They got paid $1,200 for a service they now don't have to render. The house always wins when you Choose to gamble... This is perfectly fair. Quote: And it's fishy that out of all those plexes not a single ONE dropped in loot... How much you wanna bet they have a higher chance of blowing up with a ship than other items? I'd bet exactly nothing.. read the thread, it's been explained several times that stacked items have a 50/50 chance of all dropping or all blowing, but a 0% chance that some but not all drop... Because that stack is ONE ITEM for the purpose of the calculation. Underlined the important part, last I checked you dont have to be 21 to play this game, in the states, you must be 21 to gamble. I agree under ccps mechanic it is very much gambling, and internet gambling by minors, is against the law. Perhaps they didnt see this coming, but thats the only real legal issue about this.
Lothris Andastar	Posted - 2010.08.10 19:50:00 - [676] Originally by: Slug Killer Underlined the important part, last I checked you dont have to be 21 to play this game, in the states, you must be 21 to gamble. I agree under ccps mechanic it is very much gambling, and internet gambling by minors, is against the law. Perhaps they didnt see this coming, but thats the only real legal issue about this. Simple, all they have to do is tell the US to GTFO. The US then bans all people in the US from playing eve. yay for Democracy!
Reyna Neens	Posted - 2010.08.10 19:51:00 - [677] I went back on forth on this issue. First, most seem to agree that the person who lost the PLEX was just plain stupid and doesn't deserve any compensation. Second, I see the point that people make when they say that CCP essentially got money for the game time but don't have to provide the service. For each PLEX that gets destroyed, either another has to be bought either with real money or ISK. I see it kind of like rebates. Companies give out rebate forms knowing full well that some will not be returned to them so they can pocket it (like some PLEXes will get destroyed and they get to pocket it). Third, I also see the counterpoint that a PLEX should not have a 100% drop rate as it greatly favors the pirate. It should get redistributed by the game so CCP has to still give out that game time. I'm actually in favor of automatically filling a sell order if the PLEX gets destroyed. That way there is still an isk to game time conversion going on for each transaction. Plus, players can keep the price in check through the market and noone automatically "wins the lottery" although the pirates get a chance to play.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.08.10 19:53:00 - [678] Originally by: Slug Killer Originally by: Una Achura Originally by: Jack Gilligan CCP's motivation to making plexes destructible is clear: They got paid $1,200 for a service they now don't have to render. The house always wins when you Choose to gamble... This is perfectly fair. Quote: And it's fishy that out of all those plexes not a single ONE dropped in loot... How much you wanna bet they have a higher chance of blowing up with a ship than other items? I'd bet exactly nothing.. read the thread, it's been explained several times that stacked items have a 50/50 chance of all dropping or all blowing, but a 0% chance that some but not all drop... Because that stack is ONE ITEM for the purpose of the calculation. Underlined the important part, last I checked you dont have to be 21 to play this game, in the states, you must be 21 to gamble. I agree under ccps mechanic it is very much gambling, and internet gambling by minors, is against the law. Perhaps they didnt see this coming, but thats the only real legal issue about this. It's no more of a legal issue than when you put your 50 cents in the little crane machine at the bowling alley in hopes that you will pick up the cute stuffed animal. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
WhiteSavage Gallente Ever Flow Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.10 19:53:00 - [679] PLEXES should never have been made ingame items in the first place. There is no reason for them to be, other then simplicity. WHich is obviously of little consequence now. PLEX are dissimilar to every other item in game why do people exclaim that they are exactly the same? Interesting point, everyone here who is supporting CCP never logs onto EVE. For the last 2 days ive added you guys to my address book and either you don't play eve, or you are all alts of 1 person :P I sincerely don't believe any one of you could stand up to an actual conversation on the matter...
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.08.10 19:55:00 - [680] Quote: This thread is simply going in circles now, with people rehashing the same arguements over and over. Agreed. HTFU or be prepared to have your stuff asked for in your emoragequit thread. This is clearly a signature.

Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.10 19:59:00 - [681] Originally by: WhiteSavage Interesting point, everyone here who is supporting CCP never logs onto EVE. For the last 2 days ive added you guys to my address book and either you don't play eve, or you are all alts of 1 person :P I sincerely don't believe any one of you could stand up to an actual conversation on the matter... Running out of arguments are we? Nice to see that you've finally brought your argument to its logical conclusion, though. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.08.10 20:01:00 - [682] Originally by: WhiteSavage PLEXES should never have been made ingame items in the first place. There is no reason for them to be, other then simplicity. WHich is obviously of little consequence now. PLEX are dissimilar to every other item in game why do people exclaim that they are exactly the same? Interesting point, everyone here who is supporting CCP never logs onto EVE. For the last 2 days ive added you guys to my address book and either you don't play eve, or you are all alts of 1 person :P I sincerely don't believe any one of you could stand up to an actual conversation on the matter... You apparently haven't been paying attention, or the quality of your trolling is rapidly going downhill. If you can't prove your point insulting people in a structured environment like the forums, you aren't going to do any better trying to bully people into your point of view when they have more interesting things to attend to in game. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Aerilis Gallente Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2010.08.10 20:28:00 - [683] Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 10/08/2010 19:39:12 One more point you should consider. If you look carefully at the facts of this particular case, no one lost a penny. The victim purchased the PLEX with ISK (he emptied the alliance wallet to do so). Whoever sold them to him got what they wanted out of it, namely ISK. The victim was taking them to JITA to re-sell them for more ISK, not redeem them for game time. All he lost was his ISK spent, or the potential ISK he would have gained. He lost no money, and did not wish to redeem them himself for game time. If the PLEX had dropped the attackers (or a lucky bystander) could have gained the PLEX. They did not drop, and the attackers immediately destroyed the wreck anyway. So nobody gained free game time, but nobody lost game time or money for that matter. At that point the only people that had invested real money had already gotten what they wanted, namely ISK. The only thing lost in this was ISK, and the market was deprived of having more PLEX available for purchase. Nobody lost a penny? More than $1000 just got nuked. Where do you think it went? Just because it got spread out throughout the playerbase because of various transactions doesn't mean nobody lost a penny. In fact, I think all of us lost several pennies, totaling up to the $1200 or whatever CCP received.
Hagen Guralman	Posted - 2010.08.10 20:33:00 - [684] Originally by: Slug Killer Underlined the important part, last I checked you dont have to be 21 to play this game, in the states, you must be 21 to gamble. I agree under ccps mechanic it is very much gambling, and internet gambling by minors, is against the law. Perhaps they didnt see this coming, but thats the only real legal issue about this. I don't see any gambling at all here. The legal definition of gambling is the betting of staking of something of value on the outcome of a game or event. By that definition, there was no gambling here: * The person who put up the money did not bet it or stake it on the outcome of a game or event. They bought a virtual good. * The pirates who blew this ship up were the ones affected by the 50%/50% drop but they did not make a bet or stake anything valueable. * The person who lost the 74 PLEX did not participate in a game of chance. Calling what happened gambling would be like saying someone who got mugged in a shady part of town after buying expensive jewelry was gambling. (Obviously, I'm not a lawyer).
Vee Raa Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2010.08.10 20:34:00 - [685] Originally by: Aerilis Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 10/08/2010 19:39:12 One more point you should consider. If you look carefully at the facts of this particular case, no one lost a penny. The victim purchased the PLEX with ISK (he emptied the alliance wallet to do so). Whoever sold them to him got what they wanted out of it, namely ISK. The victim was taking them to JITA to re-sell them for more ISK, not redeem them for game time. All he lost was his ISK spent, or the potential ISK he would have gained. He lost no money, and did not wish to redeem them himself for game time. If the PLEX had dropped the attackers (or a lucky bystander) could have gained the PLEX. They did not drop, and the attackers immediately destroyed the wreck anyway. So nobody gained free game time, but nobody lost game time or money for that matter. At that point the only people that had invested real money had already gotten what they wanted, namely ISK. The only thing lost in this was ISK, and the market was deprived of having more PLEX available for purchase. Nobody lost a penny? More than $1000 just got nuked. Where do you think it went? Just because it got spread out throughout the playerbase because of various transactions doesn't mean nobody lost a penny. In fact, I think all of us lost several pennies, totaling up to the $1200 or whatever CCP received. /facepalm
Shawna Gray Gallente	Posted - 2010.08.10 20:56:00 - [686] Originally by: WhiteSavage Interesting point, everyone here who is supporting CCP never logs onto EVE. For the last 2 days ive added you guys to my address book and either you don't play eve, or you are all alts of 1 person :P I sincerely don't believe any one of you could stand up to an actual conversation on the matter... Ohhh internet stalker.
FlameGlow Rebellion Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.10 21:17:00 - [687] Originally by: Aerilis Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 10/08/2010 19:39:12 One more point you should consider. If you look carefully at the facts of this particular case, no one lost a penny. The victim purchased the PLEX with ISK (he emptied the alliance wallet to do so). Whoever sold them to him got what they wanted out of it, namely ISK. The victim was taking them to JITA to re-sell them for more ISK, not redeem them for game time. All he lost was his ISK spent, or the potential ISK he would have gained. He lost no money, and did not wish to redeem them himself for game time. If the PLEX had dropped the attackers (or a lucky bystander) could have gained the PLEX. They did not drop, and the attackers immediately destroyed the wreck anyway. So nobody gained free game time, but nobody lost game time or money for that matter. At that point the only people that had invested real money had already gotten what they wanted, namely ISK. The only thing lost in this was ISK, and the market was deprived of having more PLEX available for purchase. Nobody lost a penny? More than $1000 just got nuked. Where do you think it went? Just because it got spread out throughout the playerbase because of various transactions doesn't mean nobody lost a penny. In fact, I think all of us lost several pennies, totaling up to the $1200 or whatever CCP received. 1200$ didn't get nuked, 22 bil isk got nuked, after GTC is converted into plexes there is no way back to RL money(well, no way that is according to EULA) 1200$ was received by CCP long ago, when codes were generated and sold, not when the plexes are destroyed ppl who sold those plexes got their isk just as they wanted I didn't lose a single penny on it, maybe even won something as servers will run with 6 player/year less load, sure it's not much CPU time when split for 40k players but it still is something Also you should quit EVE if you don't like destructible plexes so much and free even more CPU time for me, kthnxbye
Aerilis Gallente Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2010.08.10 21:33:00 - [688] Originally by: FlameGlow Originally by: Aerilis Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 10/08/2010 19:39:12 One more point you should consider. If you look carefully at the facts of this particular case, no one lost a penny. The victim purchased the PLEX with ISK (he emptied the alliance wallet to do so). Whoever sold them to him got what they wanted out of it, namely ISK. The victim was taking them to JITA to re-sell them for more ISK, not redeem them for game time. All he lost was his ISK spent, or the potential ISK he would have gained. He lost no money, and did not wish to redeem them himself for game time. If the PLEX had dropped the attackers (or a lucky bystander) could have gained the PLEX. They did not drop, and the attackers immediately destroyed the wreck anyway. So nobody gained free game time, but nobody lost game time or money for that matter. At that point the only people that had invested real money had already gotten what they wanted, namely ISK. The only thing lost in this was ISK, and the market was deprived of having more PLEX available for purchase. Nobody lost a penny? More than $1000 just got nuked. Where do you think it went? Just because it got spread out throughout the playerbase because of various transactions doesn't mean nobody lost a penny. In fact, I think all of us lost several pennies, totaling up to the $1200 or whatever CCP received. 1200$ didn't get nuked, 22 bil isk got nuked, after GTC is converted into plexes there is no way back to RL money(well, no way that is according to EULA) 1200$ was received by CCP long ago, when codes were generated and sold, not when the plexes are destroyed ppl who sold those plexes got their isk just as they wanted I didn't lose a single penny on it, maybe even won something as servers will run with 6 player/year less load, sure it's not much CPU time when split for 40k players but it still is something Also you should quit EVE if you don't like destructible plexes so much and free even more CPU time for me, kthnxbye You're almost there. Dig deeper. Where would those PLEX have gone if they weren't destroyed?
Avius Rhinstien	Posted - 2010.08.10 21:48:00 - [689] Originally by: Aerilis Originally by: FlameGlow Originally by: Aerilis Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 10/08/2010 19:39:12 One more point you should consider. If you look carefully at the facts of this particular case, no one lost a penny. The victim purchased the PLEX with ISK (he emptied the alliance wallet to do so). Whoever sold them to him got what they wanted out of it, namely ISK. The victim was taking them to JITA to re-sell them for more ISK, not redeem them for game time. All he lost was his ISK spent, or the potential ISK he would have gained. He lost no money, and did not wish to redeem them himself for game time. If the PLEX had dropped the attackers (or a lucky bystander) could have gained the PLEX. They did not drop, and the attackers immediately destroyed the wreck anyway. So nobody gained free game time, but nobody lost game time or money for that matter. At that point the only people that had invested real money had already gotten what they wanted, namely ISK. The only thing lost in this was ISK, and the market was deprived of having more PLEX available for purchase. Nobody lost a penny? More than $1000 just got nuked. Where do you think it went? Just because it got spread out throughout the playerbase because of various transactions doesn't mean nobody lost a penny. In fact, I think all of us lost several pennies, totaling up to the $1200 or whatever CCP received. 1200$ didn't get nuked, 22 bil isk got nuked, after GTC is converted into plexes there is no way back to RL money(well, no way that is according to EULA) 1200$ was received by CCP long ago, when codes were generated and sold, not when the plexes are destroyed ppl who sold those plexes got their isk just as they wanted I didn't lose a single penny on it, maybe even won something as servers will run with 6 player/year less load, sure it's not much CPU time when split for 40k players but it still is something Also you should quit EVE if you don't like destructible plexes so much and free even more CPU time for me, kthnxbye You're almost there. Dig deeper. Where would those PLEX have gone if they weren't destroyed? Just as FlameGlow and Ranger 1 pointed out, these PLEX were bought with ISK and were going to be resold for more ISK, hense no cash was lost, only 22 billion in ISK.
Mallui Mallard	Posted - 2010.08.10 21:59:00 - [690] Originally by: FlameGlow 1200$ didn't get nuked, 22 bil isk got nuked, after GTC is converted into plexes there is no way back to RL money(well, no way that is according to EULA) 1200$ was received by CCP long ago, when codes were generated and sold, not when the plexes are destroyed ppl who sold those plexes got their isk just as they wanted I didn't lose a single penny on it, maybe even won something as servers will run with 6 player/year less load, sure it's not much CPU time when split for 40k players but it still is something Also you should quit EVE if you don't like destructible plexes so much and free even more CPU time for me, kthnxbye CCP is very fortunate. They know their player base is composed of simple minded people with superiority complex who can't see the big picture. People that are locked in their own little world inside their heads. That's why they can get away with a lot of crap they pull out, they know their player base are costumers that can't seem to grasp the basic concepts of being a costumer. They can literally take money and return no service because of mechanics of THEIR OWN game. Most companies would sell their soul to the devil to get costumers who hand over money and ask no questions.

Little Tigerlilly	Posted - 2010.08.10 22:02:00 - [691] Originally by: ShadowandLight Other then the argument that you want all items in EVE to be equal in how they are treated I see not other reason to make plex's movable other then the hope that something like this happens. Personally I see it as nothing but a greedy move by CCP. However I am a capitalist, so sir, my hat is off to you :) A person who buys a plex out in la la land and can only sell it for 200 million might feel like moving it would be a nice option. I've never purchased a plex but I'm guessing people might accidentally put it somewhere that it won't sell well and moving it would be useful.
Isten Baba	Posted - 2010.08.10 22:15:00 - [692] Most things have been said already. My stance: there's nothing wrong with the PLEX system, and there's nothing unethical or illegal about it (it amazes me that people dispute this). But I do wonder one thing: Why are people so concerned with CCP getting some extra cash? EVE is a competitive game. If another player choses to be an idiot (or to take risks), and loses ISK as a result, that ISK loss is a net gain to me (a player in competition with him/her). If CCP then gets extra money because of that, that would be another net gain to me, given that CCP is not my competitor (other players are), but a provider of a service. So what's wrong with that? My only concern is that CCP is not spending their money wisely at the moment (on vampire nonsene and console FPS idiocy), and we should make them reconsider their strategy. But I want them to do well financially, and if this system helps, why not? Nobody forces a player to haul or trade (i.e. risk) PLEX, so it's much better than semi-forced micro-transaction or other crap like that. Oh, and in case the argument is that it makes people abandon EVE: frankly, those players shouldn't be playing EVE in the first place, given that one of it's selling points is its harsh environment.
Zostera Minmatar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.08.10 22:17:00 - [693] Originally by: Isten Baba Why are people so concerned with CCP getting some extra cash? Because they won't spend it on EvE.
Aerilis Gallente Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2010.08.10 22:18:00 - [694] Originally by: Avius Rhinstien Just as FlameGlow and Ranger 1 pointed out, these PLEX were bought with ISK and were going to be resold for more ISK, hense no cash was lost, only 22 billion in ISK. You still haven't told me where those PLEX would have ended up. They can't be traded indefinitely.
Shawna Gray Gallente	Posted - 2010.08.10 22:22:00 - [695] Originally by: Zostera Originally by: Isten Baba Why are people so concerned with CCP getting some extra cash? Because they won't spend it on EvE. Newsflash. Games companies develop new games!! (Must come as a shock i know).
Serrad Trenn Amarr	Posted - 2010.08.10 22:29:00 - [696] Edited by: Serrad Trenn on 10/08/2010 22:35:48 Originally by: Aerilis Nobody lost a penny? More than $1000 just got nuked. Where do you think it went? Just because it got spread out throughout the playerbase because of various transactions doesn't mean nobody lost a penny. In fact, I think all of us lost several pennies, totaling up to the $1200 or whatever CCP received. All that happened was, that the amount of PLEXs available (supply) dropped. Means, prices for PLEX should rise a little. Driven by more expensive PLEXs some people probably buy more of them for real money to get isk, which raises supply again and limits the rising of PLEXs' isk-value somewhat. So, people other than those stupid or reckless enough to lose their PLEXs are affected as follows: - Players who don't buy PLEXs aren't affected at all. - Players who buy PLEXs for real money can get a little bit more isk out of it. - Players who buy PLEXs for isk have to pay a little bit more. - CCP gets some money extra. As long as there isn't a noticable fraction of all PLEXs ingame destroyed, these effects won't be very high. The only players "losing" money because of this are those, that buy more or start to buy PLEXs at all for real money because of the higher isk-value of them and those, who don't buy PLEXs for isk anymore, because they get too expensive for them, and pay CCP directly for game time. Edit: typing
Isten Baba	Posted - 2010.08.10 22:45:00 - [697] Edited by: Isten Baba on 10/08/2010 22:45:51 Edited by: Isten Baba on 10/08/2010 22:45:24 Originally by: Zostera Originally by: Isten Baba Why are people so concerned with CCP getting some extra cash? Because they won't spend it on EvE. Even if they didn't spend a penny of it one EVE, it still wouldn't be a loss to other players, but only to the player who chose to risk hauling it. It would still benefit me (minimally) because an ingame competitor lost ISK. As I stated in the same post, I too am concerned with CCP's lack of focus/commitment to EVE, but for that we should post our concerns in another thread. Complaining about something like PLEX only dilutes the message I personally would like CCP to hear, namely that they need to refocus on the basics of EVE.
Brannor McThife Caldari Brotherhood of the Ancients	Posted - 2010.08.10 22:54:00 - [698] Perhaps it is time then to bring in the auditors and make sure that CCP in no way contributed to the destruction of the PLEXs? Every time a PLEX is destroyed, an audit trail needs to be submitted/logged showing CCP had no direct involvement. I mean... heaven forbid that a CCP employee blows up a ship carrying PLEX. Would he/she get a small cut of the $$$ paid for the GTC? That would motivate some employees with the right access to track down who has lots of PLEX and camp them...waiting to pounce. Talk about employee rewards program... Audit the buggers. -G
Sarina Berghil Minmatar New Zion Judge Advocate	Posted - 2010.08.10 22:55:00 - [699] Originally by: Serrad Trenn Edited by: Serrad Trenn on 10/08/2010 22:35:48 Originally by: Aerilis Nobody lost a penny? More than $1000 just got nuked. Where do you think it went? Just because it got spread out throughout the playerbase because of various transactions doesn't mean nobody lost a penny. In fact, I think all of us lost several pennies, totaling up to the $1200 or whatever CCP received. All that happened was, that the amount of PLEXs available (supply) dropped. Means, prices for PLEX should rise a little. Driven by more expensive PLEXs some people probably buy more of them for real money to get isk, which raises supply again and limits the rising of PLEXs' isk-value somewhat. So, people other than those stupid or reckless enough to lose their PLEXs are affected as follows: - Players who don't buy PLEXs aren't affected at all. - Players who buy PLEXs for real money can get a little bit more isk out of it. - Players who buy PLEXs for isk have to pay a little bit more. - CCP gets some money extra. As long as there isn't a noticable fraction of all PLEXs ingame destroyed, these effects won't be very high. The only players "losing" money because of this are those, that buy more or start to buy PLEXs at all for real money because of the higher isk-value of them and those, who don't buy PLEXs for isk anymore, because they get too expensive for them, and pay CCP directly for game time. I think thats a very accurate analysis. My main issue is that CCPs little money making scheme in this context should be more honest. Adding one more dollar to the price of game time would probably earn them more, with less outrage from the player base.
Scyyy	Posted - 2010.08.10 22:58:00 - [700] You people do realize you are whining about something that CCP has been the only company to ever do right, and on top of that the fact of the matter is PLEX wasn't put in the game for CCP to be nice and allow you to play for free, plex was added so that CCP could regulate isk selling by allowing people to buy isk with real money directly from them, the fact that you do it by selling plex is an added bonus. They completed their end of the bargain when you converted and sold the plex. would you rather they just sell the isk directly and not be awesome in allowing people to play for free? You people are being ridiculous.

Isten Baba	Posted - 2010.08.10 22:58:00 - [701] Edited by: Isten Baba on 10/08/2010 22:58:18 Originally by: Sarina Berghil I think thats a very accurate analysis. My main issue is that CCPs little money making scheme in this context should be more honest. Adding one more dollar to the price of game time would probably earn them more, with less outrage from the player base. I actually prefer the current set-up: it's basically a tax on taking risks with PLEX and/or on foolish ingame choices. That's much better than an overall price increase, in my opinion.
Sarina Berghil Minmatar New Zion Judge Advocate	Posted - 2010.08.10 23:25:00 - [702] Originally by: Isten Baba Edited by: Isten Baba on 10/08/2010 22:58:18 Originally by: Sarina Berghil I think thats a very accurate analysis. My main issue is that CCPs little money making scheme in this context should be more honest. Adding one more dollar to the price of game time would probably earn them more, with less outrage from the player base. I actually prefer the current set-up: it's basically a tax on taking risks with PLEX and/or on foolish ingame choices. That's much better than an overall price increase, in my opinion. Well its not really the risk-takers that are taxed, even though they may get the biggest loss, we must assume they can also make a profit from the risk. Its the buyers of PLEXes that are taxed because of the higher price.
Stick Cult Unspoken Autonomy.	Posted - 2010.08.10 23:28:00 - [703] Edited by: Stick Cult on 10/08/2010 23:28:25 Originally by: Sarina Berghil I think thats a very accurate analysis. My main issue is that CCPs little money making scheme in this context should be more honest. Adding one more dollar to the price of game time would probably earn them more, with less outrage from the player base. I honestly believe CCP just didn't want PLEX to be 'special items' anymore. If their goal was money, as you said, there are much easier ways to get it. I also firmly believe they did it for teh lulz. CAN WE LET THIS THREAD DIE NOW?! Originally by: CCP Tuxford my bad. Rest assured I'm being ridiculed by my co-workers.
Sarina Berghil Minmatar New Zion Judge Advocate	Posted - 2010.08.10 23:31:00 - [704] Originally by: Stick Cult I honestly believe CCP just didn't want PLEX to be 'special items' anymore. If their goal was money, as you said, there are much easier ways to get it. I also firmly believe they did it for teh lulz. I don't think they gave it much thought at all to be honest.
Noxides	Posted - 2010.08.11 00:15:00 - [705] All this crying, why? I can name countless mmorpgs that you can lose real money in. In one I've seen people sink $500+ onto a weapon only for it to break 2 seconds later when upgrading it. CCP don't sell you actual gametime, thats what subscriptions are for, they sell you a plex/code. It's your choice if you want to convert it, blow it up, give it to some random guy or whatever. Stop with the crying already
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.08.11 00:20:00 - [706] Originally by: WhiteSavage Interesting point, everyone here who is supporting CCP never logs onto EVE. For the last 2 days ive added you guys to my address book and either you don't play eve, or you are all alts of 1 person :P You missed about 12 to 16 hours on my side there ... but we already knew you are a bad troll. Just because you have trouble reading a threatnaught, I'll answer tho. The reason they are here is to counter RMT, without having to set a fixed conversion rate on gametime <> ISK. Free market and all that crap we hate so much in EVE. While PLEX, like every other item in the DB has different properties, it is now similar to every other item in that it can be moved. This creates options for (smart) people. While some people have provided you with a few very good and valid arguements, you reply with **** like I just quoted, show that you cant be bothered to read the rest of the threat, and proceed to lie. So please, dont use the word sincere, you are not. ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
Isten Baba	Posted - 2010.08.11 01:04:00 - [707] Edited by: Isten Baba on 11/08/2010 01:04:38 Originally by: Sarina Berghil Well its not really the risk-takers that are taxed, even though they may get the biggest loss, we must assume they can also make a profit from the risk. Its the buyers of PLEXes that are taxed because of the higher price. Which is not too bad either. It means that players who buy PLEX with euros/dollars actually get more ISK if they sell that PLEX. Given that they are typically newer players (and PLEX for ISK buyers are typically older/richer players), that means a wealth transfer from old (isk-rich) to new (isk-poor) players. Surely that's good thing for EVE.
Memphis Raines	Posted - 2010.08.11 01:18:00 - [708] I see a lot of rabble going back and forth on this so here's my take. Darwinism is working as intended in New Eden. If for some reason CCP loses customers due to this then Darwinism will kick them squarely in the nuts as well. Nothing to see here. Move along.
Edible Bandaid Gallente Crimson Nation	Posted - 2010.08.11 01:31:00 - [709] Originally by: Memphis Raines I see a lot of rabble going back and forth on this so here's my take. Darwinism is working as intended in New Eden. If for some reason CCP loses customers due to this then Darwinism will kick them squarely in the nuts as well. Nothing to see here. Move along. You sir would be laughed out of any 9th grade economics class... let alone anyone interested in business history. ___________________________________ WHHYYYYYY
Scyyy	Posted - 2010.08.11 01:55:00 - [710] ^CPP is selling you isk by allowing you to use plex, they didn't decide to implement it so that people could play for free(although it is a very nice side effect of the way they have implemented isk buying), they implemented it to try and curb isk selling by allowing you to buy it directly from them as apposed to buying from botters. Once again they have completed exactly what they promised when you converted it to plex, you got isk for real money, the plex is just a by product of the isk sale. I will say again would you rather they just give you the isk directly and not allow you to play for free if you so choose? So once again you all are being ****ing ridiculous.

Hroya Gallente TerraNovae	Posted - 2010.08.11 02:26:00 - [711] Creating the oppertunity to fire off an empire dramabomb sure takes the focus away from more game pressing game issue's it seems. It doesnt really effect the majority what happens to someone elses plexes but it does stear the crowd towards the event. If plexes would have remained a "special item" it wouldnt have mattered to anyone eihter.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.08.11 05:20:00 - [712] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 11/08/2010 05:21:06 Originally by: Aerilis Originally by: Avius Rhinstien Just as FlameGlow and Ranger 1 pointed out, these PLEX were bought with ISK and were going to be resold for more ISK, hense no cash was lost, only 22 billion in ISK. You still haven't told me where those PLEX would have ended up. They can't be traded indefinitely. Although you have been answered quite eloquently, and with a level of analysis far beyond the obvious statement you were hoping for, I will answer you directly. Those PLEX would have ended up being converted into game time, after being purchased from our unlucky victim with... ISK. The buyer(s) would have acquired them without spending a penny. So lets recap the facts of this matter. The people that paid money for the PLEX (or GTCs that they were created from) sold them to our hapless victim for ISK, getting exactly what they paid for. The victim was transporting those PLEX from a location where he purchased them at a low price (in ISK, using the whole of his corps wallet to be precise) and transported them to Jita hoping to sell them for a nice profit (in ISK)... which is what "he" wanted. He had no intention of converting them into game time himself. When they were destroyed, he lost what he spent on the PLEX (ISK) and any potential profit he would have made on those PLEX (ISK). The war targets that killed him gained nothing, and destroyed the wreck anyway. They gained nothing, and spent no money. The potential people he would have sold those PLEX to would have been spending ISK to purchase them, not money. They may arguably have to spend slightly more on the PLEX they do end up buying (with ISK, as they originally intended) as there will not be quite as many PLEX available on the market. This is, of course, quite a stretch... but any extra amount they may have to pay will be in ISK, not currency. The only person in this whole string of events that lost anything was the person transporting those PLEX to market, and he only lost ISK... not one penny of real currency. In fact, it wasn't even his own ISK. I trust this clears things up for you. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Apollo Gabriel Domini Lex Talionis Etherium Cartel	Posted - 2010.08.11 05:51:00 - [713] Stede: Originally by: Stede Bonnet Originally by: Jack Gilligan CCP's motivation to making plexes destructible is clear: They got paid $1,200 for a service they now don't have to render. And it's fishy that out of all those plexes not a single ONE dropped in loot... How much you wanna bet they have a higher chance of blowing up with a ship than other items? While the buyer was a blithering moronic tool to undock with THAT in the hold, if he paid for them with a credit card, he should be contacting his bank to file a charge back request. Game mechanics, EULA, or whatnot, CCP cannot put those ahead of their merchant agreement they have to sign with the credit card companies in order to accept and process them... Were you born ****ed or did you get dropped on your head too many times? CCP will win that chargeback, without a doubt. The customer got what they paid for, and then did something stupid with it. If you buy an ipod from best buy with a credit card and then you smash it with a hammer on purpose whos fault is it that the ipod is in pieces? What you don't seem to understand is that you didn't buy an ipod, you bought a ticket which can be redeemed for an ipod. Then that ticket stayed in best buy until you picked up your ipod. Then when you did, you were free to risk it, and BB then does something for the money. In the scenario, you buy a ticket and the ticket can be destroyed. Now CCP can get money and not provide an ipod, so they don't supply anything for the money. Do you see that this situation is different? I am not asking if you like it or not, but do you recognize that CCP can now get money without providing a service? That is a main complaint in this thread. It has nothing to do with "risks" in EvE. Apollo Best Apollo ************************************************ * Don't let the Trolls keep you from your goals. * **************************************************
Apollo Gabriel Domini Lex Talionis Etherium Cartel	Posted - 2010.08.11 05:56:00 - [714] Originally by: Shawna Gray Originally by: Edible Bandaid Originally by: Shawna Gray To sum up the last 21 pages: Buhuu I dont want to take responsibility for my own actions. These are the people that bring you warning signs on your coffee cup to make sure you understand the contents might be hot. To sum up the last 21 pages Buhuu I dont understand the difference between an item that affects my real life and that which effects my virtual world. Buhuu These are the people that bring you 4chan... If you are that worried about its effect on your "real life" you would think you had the brains to not gamble with it. Thanks for proving my point. perhaps you should take a logic course, and learn what proof means. The poster could be a demonstration of your point, but a proof he is not, nor do his single post prove your point. You can claim to summarize the last X pages with an incomplete summary, but that doesn't mean you did. There really are legitimate concerns being expressed here, unfortunately many of them get met with "HTFU and deal with it! Don't be stupid! ... Most of the posts stating concern, state concern with the change, not to the loss. There is a difference, and you would do better to notice there is a difference. If you would like to keep posting without reading, of course that is your right, but at this point you are just providing more demonstations of failed reading comprehension ability. Best Apollo ************************************************** * Don't let the Trolls keep you from your goals. * **************************************************
Sarton Wells	Posted - 2010.08.11 05:57:00 - [715] I don't get it...CCP is selling an in-game item. This in-game item can extend your play time by 30 days. How is this any different than f2p mmos? For example I can buy 100% xp increase in Silkroad. How I decide to utilise it is completely up to me. If I choose to use it on days I won't be able to play it is my fault. Not joymax's. Same as the plex. If you want contractual obligation from CCP you can modify your subscription interval in you account management page. Plex is CCP's f2p/p2p hybrid shop item. Why would anyone think otherwise is beyond me.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.08.11 06:05:00 - [716] Originally by: Apollo Gabriel Stede: Originally by: Stede Bonnet Originally by: Jack Gilligan CCP's motivation to making plexes destructible is clear: They got paid $1,200 for a service they now don't have to render. And it's fishy that out of all those plexes not a single ONE dropped in loot... How much you wanna bet they have a higher chance of blowing up with a ship than other items? While the buyer was a blithering moronic tool to undock with THAT in the hold, if he paid for them with a credit card, he should be contacting his bank to file a charge back request. Game mechanics, EULA, or whatnot, CCP cannot put those ahead of their merchant agreement they have to sign with the credit card companies in order to accept and process them... Were you born ******ed or did you get dropped on your head too many times? CCP will win that chargeback, without a doubt. The customer got what they paid for, and then did something stupid with it. If you buy an ipod from best buy with a credit card and then you smash it with a hammer on purpose whos fault is it that the ipod is in pieces? What you don't seem to understand is that you didn't buy an ipod, you bought a ticket which can be redeemed for an ipod. Then that ticket stayed in best buy until you picked up your ipod. Then when you did, you were free to risk it, and BB then does something for the money. In the scenario, you buy a ticket and the ticket can be destroyed. Now CCP can get money and not provide an ipod, so they don't supply anything for the money. Do you see that this situation is different? I am not asking if you like it or not, but do you recognize that CCP can now get money without providing a service? That is a main complaint in this thread. It has nothing to do with "risks" in EvE. Apollo Best Apollo You have missed the point, see the post above yours. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Doctor Ungabungas Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.08.11 06:09:00 - [717] Originally by: Apollo Gabriel Do you see that this situation is different? I am not asking if you like it or not, but do you recognize that CCP can now get money without providing a service? That is a main complaint in this thread. It has nothing to do with "risks" in EvE. What do you think is going to happen to all the PLEX on the market when CCP closes down EvE for good?
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.08.11 06:22:00 - [718] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 11/08/2010 06:27:40 Quote: Do you see that this situation is different? I am not asking if you like it or not, but do you recognize that CCP can now get money without providing a service? That is a main complaint in this thread. It has nothing to do with "risks" in EvE. Telling you to look at the post above yours for an explanation wasn't the best method of replying to your specific concern. To be specific: People that purchase PLEX with RL currency and lose it while transporting it elsewhere do not lose a "service" that they paid CCP for. That being game time. The only reason to ever transport a PLEX in game is if you are going to attempt to sell it for ISK elsewhere. (In fact, the only reason to transport a PLEX in EVE is if you bought it with ISK somewhere at a low price, and are attempting to move it to a location where you can get a better ISK payout in that location, but lets continue to illustrate the point). If you buy a PLEX with RL currency with the intention to redeem it for game time, you have no reason to transport it. Ever. If you do transport it, it is with the intention to sell it for ISK elsewhere. Since a PLEX can only be redeemed for game time or sold for ISK, and we know if you are transporting it you have no intention of redeeming it yourself, the only thing you lose if your PLEX is destroyed is the ISK you would have received when you sold it... not a "service" (game time). CCP provided you with what you paid your money for, an in game (destructible) item that can be sold for ISK. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.08.11 06:38:00 - [719] If I ever wanted a forum sidekick like Batman has Robin then Ranger1 would be my first choice. Way to stick it to the idjits mate. o7 Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
Lena Planeswalker IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.08.11 07:40:00 - [720] Somebody could probably use this thread for somekind of social study i wonder how many times people have to nail it before the stubborn ones finally change their minds..ill give it another go You accepted the EULA and you probably didn't read it did you, thinking the legal system will keep you covered, well more likely not even thinking. what CCP for example could do legally. virtually everything in eves virtual world. It's theirs they can do what they want with it. This includes but is not limited to 1) resetting everything 2) everything else What seems to be the biggest problem here is that people seem to think that CCP is somehow in increasing proportions not having to provide a service for paid account time. some examples banned accounts, how much do you think CCP got for banning the 6000 macroers the other summer? I'm sure they didn't refund the people. I didn't see an outrage back then about CCP not having to provide a service which was payed for? this goes for all other banned accounts aswell. Extended downtimes, especially the long one not long ago. How many people do you think weren't serviced for that period of time? Sure they gave us some SP but how much could they save by just turning of the servers for a day, still gathering money and just giving some free SP afterward? Everyone would be happy because you get free SP and no one would be whining about CCP not providing for services which are payed for. And finally a plex example if and when the servers go down how many plex do you think there will still be around, not to even take into account the already payed subscriptions, how much will CCP be payed for a service they will not provide any further? didn't like that sig anyways...

Shawna Gray Gallente	Posted - 2010.08.11 09:26:00 - [721] Originally by: Apollo Gabriel There really are legitimate concerns being expressed here Nope.
Adora Femella	Posted - 2010.08.11 09:59:00 - [722] Originally by: Shawna Gray Originally by: Apollo Gabriel There really are legitimate concerns being expressed here Nope. QFT. Since it takes concent of the player to convert a GTC to PLEX, and CCP provides 100% safe ways for the initial owner to convert both GTC and a PLEX to ISK and gametime, there really are no legitimate concerns. There might be some, if these safe mechanisms didn't exist, but since they do there really aren't any. The few people, besides the obvious trolls, that keep crying foul either show a very poor grasp of reality or seem to be concerned about some theoretical and non-existant situations instead of looking at what is actually happening. Either way this whole thing is a non-issue as far as legitimate concerns are concerned.
Brannor McThife Caldari Brotherhood of the Ancients	Posted - 2010.08.11 11:25:00 - [723] According to the latest QEN, CCP sells over 70,000 PLEX (that's coverted GTC, no mention of GTC in total) PER MONTH. So if you convert, using simple maths of $15 each... that's over 1 million smackers, or at their average rate of ISK @ 350m: 24,500,000,000,000 ISK Or in words - 24.5 Trillion ISK exchanges hands each month in the purchase/trade of virtualised Game Time. What if all of those got destroyed... -G
IDieAlotInGateCamps	Posted - 2010.08.11 11:34:00 - [724] Edited by: IDieAlotInGateCamps on 11/08/2010 11:33:58 Originally by: Brannor McThife According to the latest QEN, CCP sells over 70,000 PLEX (that's coverted GTC, no mention of GTC in total) PER MONTH. So if you convert, using simple maths of $15 each... that's over 1 million smackers, or at their average rate of ISK @ 350m: 24,500,000,000,000 ISK Or in words - 24.5 Trillion ISK exchanges hands each month in the purchase/trade of virtualised Game Time. What if all of those got destroyed... -G Can I have some of that stuff you want to destroy? Pretty please? I'm good with 10%! edit: failed quoting
Foundation Vox	Posted - 2010.08.11 11:47:00 - [725] could care less.
Mallui Mallard	Posted - 2010.08.11 12:07:00 - [726] Originally by: Foundation Vox could care less. Do you care a lot about it? Or mildly care about it? Perhaps some varying degree of care?
ShadowandLight Amarr Doom Guard Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.08.11 13:09:00 - [727] Originally by: Brannor McThife According to the latest QEN, CCP sells over 70,000 PLEX (that's coverted GTC, no mention of GTC in total) PER MONTH. So if you convert, using simple maths of $15 each... that's over 1 million smackers, or at their average rate of ISK @ 350m: 24,500,000,000,000 ISK Or in words - 24.5 Trillion ISK exchanges hands each month in the purchase/trade of virtualised Game Time. What if all of those got destroyed... -G 300k subscribers x $15 ( someones paying that either way ) is $4.5m a month. And they cant fix sov bugs? Cant be asked to fix scanning colors? Where in gods green earth are they spending 4.5m $$ a month? DUST and World of Darkness I guess, it cannont be on eve. ------- "The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1 Hoist the Colors!
Sujanra Acoma Minmatar Shadow Kitty Legion	Posted - 2010.08.11 14:36:00 - [728] Originally by: ShadowandLight Originally by: Brannor McThife According to the latest QEN, CCP sells over 70,000 PLEX (that's coverted GTC, no mention of GTC in total) PER MONTH. So if you convert, using simple maths of $15 each... that's over 1 million smackers, or at their average rate of ISK @ 350m: 24,500,000,000,000 ISK Or in words - 24.5 Trillion ISK exchanges hands each month in the purchase/trade of virtualised Game Time. What if all of those got destroyed... -G 300k subscribers x $15 ( someones paying that either way ) is $4.5m a month. And they cant fix sov bugs? Cant be asked to fix scanning colors? Where in gods green earth are they spending 4.5m $$ a month? DUST and World of Darkness I guess, it cannont be on eve. Bawwwwwwwwwwww. Anyway, I'd just like to point out that that guy did not pay money for those PLEXes for the purpose of applying gametime. He would never have had to move them for that. He bought them for the purpose of moving them and selling them elsewhere. He wanted to reap an ingame reward, so he took an ingame risk. Fair. Next.
Apollo Cochrane Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2010.08.11 15:07:00 - [729] I'm fairly new to EVE and am loving it. When I first read that CCP were going to let you undock with PLEX onboard I thought it was such a cool chaos-inducing idea. I guess I was right. I first heard about Aystra's huge loss here and immediately ran to find a calculator. At US $17.50 per PLEX, that's US $1295.00 in real money that as many have already said, went straight into CCP's pocket for essentially doing nothing. For free. 6 YEARS of gametime. Freakin' crazy. Now, don't get me wrong - I totally agree that this was the pilot's fault, and there are other ways to move plex (even I know that and I'm a newb) and if you undock with plex in your hold you'd better be prepared to defend yourself, but what I don't agree with is that PLEX can be destroyed. I think that it's wrong that CCP should be allowed to basically get money for nothing. It's as simple as that. PLEX should be indestructible. Encase them in some new tripolymer alloy or whatever you got ta do, CCP! (Er, I mean CONCORD). Just make it so the PLEX doesn't simply disappear into CCP's bank account. (Yes I know the transaction with CCP ended when you hit 'Submit' on the credit card purchase screen, but you know what I mean). Far from taking excitement away from the pvp aspect of PLEX transportation, I think this would ADD to it, since if you make the kill, the PLEX is guaranteed. This will in-turn make more players want to go 'PLEXing' and therefore increase the risk of being a PLEX hauler and may even alter the market price. So the players get more PLEX-induced chaos, (thereby adding to in-game thrills) and CCP don't get paid for nothing.
Avius Rhinstien	Posted - 2010.08.11 15:26:00 - [730] Originally by: ShadowandLight Originally by: Brannor McThife According to the latest QEN, CCP sells over 70,000 PLEX (that's coverted GTC, no mention of GTC in total) PER MONTH. So if you convert, using simple maths of $15 each... that's over 1 million smackers, or at their average rate of ISK @ 350m: 24,500,000,000,000 ISK Or in words - 24.5 Trillion ISK exchanges hands each month in the purchase/trade of virtualised Game Time. What if all of those got destroyed... -G 300k subscribers x $15 ( someones paying that either way ) is $4.5m a month. And they cant fix sov bugs? Cant be asked to fix scanning colors? Where in gods green earth are they spending 4.5m $$ a month? DUST and World of Darkness I guess, it cannont be on eve. Your grasp of logic is astounding, EVE is not 1 server, each system is a server of it's own. Those servers cost money to run, as do the employees that keep them running. Then there's developers who tend to get some nice pay cheques because believe it or not developing and maintaining a game such as EVE is pretty hard. Then you have to pay all the customer service represenatives, you know the people who respond to your petitions. There's graphic artists, network programers, rendering engineers, writers, and even lawyers. These people have have families to support and pay cheques they get at the end of the day, to asume that all the money CCP gets goes to developing any of there games is foolish. Pull your head out of your ass. As for the continued argument on the PLEX issue, companies benifit from stuff like this all the time, most transit companies dont give back any change, if fare is $1.50 and you put in a $5 you just lost $3.50 in "unrendered services" anytime you buy a gift card and leave it sitting there with a few bucks left on it the company benifits because that money doesn't get spent and after a time disapears. "We encourage you to use the entire gift amount before the gift card expires. When your card expires, the funds are no longer available. The card and the underlying funds expire at the same time." can you believe it? you paid cash for a service and if you dont use it in the way it was intened you can lose the money?!?!?!?!?! UTHNIKABLE, how dare people try and make a few extra bucks on those who are to stupid to realize they're being taken advantage of? Dont people have honor?

ShadowandLight Amarr Doom Guard Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.08.11 15:51:00 - [731] Originally by: Avius Rhinstien UTHNIKABLE, how dare people try and make a few extra bucks on those who are to stupid to realize they're being taken advantage of? Dont people have honor? Here we go... Obviously EVE is very profitable. CCP has quite a large staff and is now developing 2 more games using that profit ( or cash from investors who will want a profit ) to fund these 2 new projects. I dont think its unreasonable for the community to ask CCP to fix current issues before adding 100 new features with 50 new problems into the mix. They are going to get so deep in problems they will never catch up. New customers can sit out for a cycle ( 6 months ) while CCP dedicates to fixing the game. But hey, The data does not Polished Features selling the game more then new features... ------- "The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1 Hoist the Colors!
Avius Rhinstien	Posted - 2010.08.11 16:15:00 - [732] Originally by: ShadowandLight I dont think its unreasonable for the community to ask CCP to fix current issues Your right it's not unreasonable but saying "300k subscribers x $15 ( someones paying that either way ) is $4.5m a month. And they cant fix sov bugs? Cant be asked to fix scanning colors? Where in gods green earth are they spending 4.5m $$ a month?" is not reasonably asking. Last time I checked insulting the game development team was not reasonably asking
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.08.11 16:20:00 - [733] Originally by: Avius Rhinstien "300k subscribers x $15 ( someones paying that either way ) is $4.5m a month. They took their in house economists advice and invested in Icelandic banking a few years ago... ...the loan sharks need paying Originally by: CCP Capslock OH GOD THE TESTING
EyeCeeYou	Posted - 2010.08.11 17:12:00 - [734] Destructible PLEX actually protects the idiot who chose to haul PLEX by giving him/her something to bargain with. "Let me go with 34 of them, and I'll give you 40 of these PLEX." The attacker may be tempted to take the 40 in hand then risk having them all destroyed. Win-Win. If PLEX were indestructible, there'd be no incentive to bargain.
Dasubervixen Amarr	Posted - 2010.08.11 17:38:00 - [735] Part of me felt a little sorry for the person who lost 74 PLEX. But only a very small part of me and just for a nanosecond or so. The majority of me almost died laughing. (in work no less) Only in EvE will you see this kind of thing happen. That's why its such a great game. Good job CCP. :)
Pennwisedom Gallente Sublime.	Posted - 2010.08.11 17:58:00 - [736] Think of all the money I am losing when I get podded with an un-updated clone. And the time I am losing, and it's literally the worst thing ever, they STOLE skill points from me, CCP literally stole them and I demand them back and free PLEX so I can move them in my Atron with my alpha clone. Also, all gross income is net income, clearly.
Mella Elcus	Posted - 2010.08.11 19:47:00 - [737] I really hope all these "pro indestructible plex guys" are trolls, because people can't really be that stupid... (oh wait, the killmail obviously proves you can). Brb, I'm off buying a couple of hundred gift cards, burn them, and then contact some newspapers when the evil store won't refund them.
ShadowandLight Amarr Doom Guard Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.08.11 20:14:00 - [738] Originally by: Mella Elcus I really hope all these "pro indestructible plex guys" are trolls, because people can't really be that stupid... (oh wait, the killmail obviously proves you can). Brb, I'm off buying a couple of hundred gift cards, burn them, and then contact some newspapers when the evil store won't refund them. Actually since most gift cards are tracked electronically by the store, most stores do allow you a new gift card if yours is lost or destroyed. Just sayin... ------- "The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1 Hoist the Colors!
Lady Elisax Nex Exercitus	Posted - 2010.08.11 22:03:00 - [739] Originally by: ShadowandLight Originally by: Mella Elcus I really hope all these "pro indestructible plex guys" are trolls, because people can't really be that stupid... (oh wait, the killmail obviously proves you can). Brb, I'm off buying a couple of hundred gift cards, burn them, and then contact some newspapers when the evil store won't refund them. Actually since most gift cards are tracked electronically by the store, most stores do allow you a new gift card if yours is lost or destroyed. Just sayin... In America, not Eve... :\
Vexidious	Posted - 2010.08.11 22:13:00 - [740] Originally by: Apollo Cochrane I think that it's wrong that CCP should be allowed to basically get money for nothing. It's as simple as that. PLEX should be indestructible. Encase them in some new tripolymer alloy or whatever you got ta do, CCP! (Er, I mean CONCORD). Just make it so the PLEX doesn't simply disappear into CCP's bank account. (Yes I know the transaction with CCP ended when you hit 'Submit' on the credit card purchase screen, but you know what I mean). And you were doing so well up until this point... You see, you don't understand the situation. CCP did not get money for nothing. They got money for providing an in-game item to someone who may, or may not, have been the idiot pilot that undocked with the PLEX. You say that you understand this, but your assertion that CCP somehow got money for nothing shows this to be false. This is no different than if someone bought PLEX, sold it, bought an expensive ship, and got it blown up.

A'Krien	Posted - 2010.08.11 23:18:00 - [741] Originally by: Vexidious Originally by: Apollo Cochrane I think that it's wrong that CCP should be allowed to basically get money for nothing. It's as simple as that. PLEX should be indestructible. Encase them in some new tripolymer alloy or whatever you got ta do, CCP! (Er, I mean CONCORD). Just make it so the PLEX doesn't simply disappear into CCP's bank account. (Yes I know the transaction with CCP ended when you hit 'Submit' on the credit card purchase screen, but you know what I mean). And you were doing so well up until this point... You see, you don't understand the situation. CCP did not get money for nothing. They got money for providing an in-game item to someone who may, or may not, have been the idiot pilot that undocked with the PLEX. You say that you understand this, but your assertion that CCP somehow got money for nothing shows this to be false. This is no different than if someone bought PLEX, sold it, bought an expensive ship, and got it blown up. That isn't quite true. In your example, PLEX will still exist within the ecosystem of the game and will be claimed by SOMEONE eventually. In this case, PLEX was destroyed out of the game. However, CCP didn't force anyone to take the PLEX out of station, especially under the condition the guy who lost all that PLEX was in. CCP provided the item as part of the transaction and was paid for it. If its new owner was stupid enough to lose it somehow, it's their business. While PLEX being indestructible is a nice idea, so is leaving the PLEX in the station... Or actually have a proper escort if nothing else. If I was moving that many PLEX, I would have the entire Alliance or even the Corp watching my back while I move them.
Kelban Kevar Gallente Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension	Posted - 2010.08.12 00:28:00 - [742] nice moveable loosable plex's....guess thats ccp's anwser to falling subscriptions.if they cant get ya money one way they'll get it another
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.08.12 00:30:00 - [743] The fact of the matter is that the plex system invented by CCP is the best thing going in the business today. It nerfs gold farmers hard and makes free to pay equal to pay to play. Ya'll just hatin on CCp's shine, so to speak. This is clearly a signature.
IDieAlotInGateCamps	Posted - 2010.08.12 22:38:00 - [744] It makes me a sad panda to see there's no more flame in this fire
Lord Xantoh	Posted - 2010.08.12 22:45:00 - [745] Originally by: Corozan Aspinall Wait till the press get a hold of this and watch the hysterical fall-out with concern .. Probably this is what CCP is betting on with such a ninja idea. ;) More news (about gankable monkeys losing +1k$) = more subscribers
CyberGh0st Minmatar Ara Veritas	Posted - 2010.08.19 14:20:00 - [746] Edited by: CyberGh0st on 19/08/2010 14:21:23 Originally by: Kelban Kevar nice moveable loosable plex's....guess thats ccp's anwser to falling subscriptions.if they cant get ya money one way they'll get it another Funny thing is that last month subs update showed the biggest subs increase month over month in EVE history. However I do expect a decline for this month, because it was an unusually high increase ( partly due to increased marketing efforts ), so people can indeed go scream "EVE is Dying !!!" again :p That doesn't mean they should not fix the lag and put sound back to pre-Apocrypha quality tho. http://www.mmodata.net Favorite MMO's : DAoC Pre-TOA-NF / SWG Pre-CU-NGE
Minchurra Caldari Feudum Chalybis The Spire Collective	Posted - 2010.08.19 14:22:00 - [747] One of my alliance mates just lost a plex to a gank. I am ridiculing him as we speak, thank you for the oppertunity CCP.
Glyken Touchon Gallente Independent Alchemists	Posted - 2010.08.19 16:00:00 - [748] Edited by: Glyken Touchon on 19/08/2010 16:01:05 Here's a similar (hypothetical) in-game situation. Pilot puts his PLEX in an anchored GSC, then the can expires after 30 days without being accessed. edit: added "hypothetical"
Secret Menace	Posted - 2010.08.19 16:23:00 - [749] I enjoy beign able to move plex around while trading . It crazy that people will pay 10 million more in one station in a region than another (they could buy either immediately) even though they could activate either one just as easily without moving. But thats how i've made a good part my trading fortune, giving the clients what they want where they want it at a price premium for my services. Also, I believe some of you against destroyable plex are being rude. I see your guys point yet I don't think its the dominant argument. Couldn't you do the same for others in a similarly adult well adjusted mode? Accept that other rational people might see things differently ? Do you go around telling people with different religions than you that they have their head up their butt and are just insane ? I'd hope you make allowance for other people to hold different views that you don't agree with or quite grasp. Certainly there have been many rational points raised in the preceding pages. You don't need to agree with the overall take away but certainly you have the ablity to realize that there are some reasonably intelligent people who have a different matter and respect that they might hold a different opinion?
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.08.19 17:15:00 - [750] Quote: Do you go around telling people with different religions than you that they have their head up their butt and are just insane ? I'd hope you make allowance for other people to hold different views that you don't agree with or quite grasp. Traditionally we just shoot them. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.

Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2010.08.19 18:07:00 - [751] Originally by: Brannor McThife According to the latest QEN, CCP sells over 70,000 PLEX (that's coverted GTC, no mention of GTC in total) PER MONTH. So if you convert, using simple maths of $15 each... that's over 1 million smackers, or at their average rate of ISK @ 350m: 24,500,000,000,000 ISK Or in words - 24.5 Trillion ISK exchanges hands each month in the purchase/trade of virtualised Game Time. What if all of those got destroyed... -G lol well .. we'd have a game 100% populated with idiots ?
Jita Alt666	Posted - 2010.08.19 20:26:00 - [752] Originally by: Diomedes Calypso Originally by: Brannor McThife According to the latest QEN, CCP sells over 70,000 PLEX (that's coverted GTC, no mention of GTC in total) PER MONTH. So if you convert, using simple maths of $15 each... that's over 1 million smackers, or at their average rate of ISK @ 350m: 24,500,000,000,000 ISK Or in words - 24.5 Trillion ISK exchanges hands each month in the purchase/trade of virtualised Game Time. What if all of those got destroyed... CCP may manage to do it with a "small databse error" -G lol well .. we'd have a game 100% populated with idiots ?


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