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Borza Slavak
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.11.01 12:08:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Codo Yagari
From where I stand, an organization that practices NRDS and claims to be opposed to piracy
One does not have to be opposed to others practising piracy in order to not practice it oneself.
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Dusenman
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.01 18:53:00 -
[32]
The problem with this whole set up, as I see it; is as follows:
As I read the NCA set up to be a fighting origination. And NRDS, is meant to be peaceful. Your against piracy, against those that fly NBSI, but NRDS means that don't fight them unless it is necessary.
The problem is that NCA is being build around a Rule of engagement. Lets take a look at CVA, as I understand things; they where build around fighting for the Amarr empire, and there for flew NRDS. (And I could be wrong.)
The way this organization should be built is on a universal protection for all, as well a promoting peace. NCA should not give people a reason to go hunting everyone who flies NBSI or lives a life of piracy. I have always understood it in this way, if they leave you alone, then you should leave them alone.
There is also the problem of who is red. And as far as I know the only universal KOS list is owned by CVA. So for NCA to survive, and to work well, there would need a KOS list for players to know who is considered red. With out this, not only are you not a coalition, but you could end up with standings issues.
So for those who TL;DR:
NCA should have/ promote the following: 1. universal protection for all, as well a promoting peace. 2. Have a universal KOS list to protect against standings issues. 3. NCA needs to be built around something other than ROE
Dusenman
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Borza Slavak
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.11.01 21:12:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Borza Slavak on 01/11/2010 21:14:39
Originally by: Dusenman
The way this organization should be built is on a universal protection for all, as well a promoting peace.
What precisely does this have to do with Not Red Don't Shoot?
Quote: NCA needs to be built around something other than ROE
So why name it after an RoE?
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Andreus Ixiris
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.11.01 21:27:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Dusenman And NRDS, is meant to be peaceful.
Where on Earth did you get that impression? ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Dusenman
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.01 21:52:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Borza Slavak Edited by: Borza Slavak on 01/11/2010 21:14:39
Originally by: Dusenman
The way this organization should be built is on a universal protection for all, as well a promoting peace.
What precisely does this have to do with Not Red Don't Shoot?
Quote: NCA needs to be built around something other than ROE
So why name it after an RoE? ---------
Both very good points, I was simply stating my views on things. I have always viewed NRDS as a peaceful thing. This is because for the most part you are only going after the people who have proven themselves a threat.
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
Originally by: Dusenman And NRDS, is meant to be peaceful.
Where on Earth did you get that impression?
I look at it this way, why have a policy of NRDS, where your only going to shoot at those who are considered red, or in most cases harmful to you, if your not going to be peaceful to everyone else. I am not saying that I am going to help them, or even talk to them. But not firing upon them you are being peaceful towards them.
If NRDS is not view as peaceful, at least in the fact that you are not going out and shooting everyone, but only those who have proven they are a threat to you, than I would ask for you to define in great detail what it mean to fly by a NRDS policy.
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Borza Slavak
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.11.01 22:28:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Dusenman I have always viewed NRDS as a peaceful thing. This is because for the most part you are only going after the people who have proven themselves a threat.
It can be a means to ensure ones alliance mates focus on real threats and important targets rather than random passers-by. Just because you don't shoot neutrals doesn't mean you want to babysit.
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Dusenman
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.01 22:53:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Borza Slavak
Originally by: Dusenman I have always viewed NRDS as a peaceful thing. This is because for the most part you are only going after the people who have proven themselves a threat.
It can be a means to ensure ones alliance mates focus on real threats and important targets rather than random passers-by. Just because you don't shoot neutrals doesn't mean you want to babysit.
Good point. I can also understand your point about the babysitting.
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Andreus Ixiris
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.11.01 22:59:00 -
[38]
NRDS is not "peaceful". NRDS is simply an assent that one will act peacefully towards those one has not specifically designated as persona non grata. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Dusenman
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.02 01:19:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris NRDS is not "peaceful". NRDS is simply an assent that one will act peacefully towards those one has not specifically designated as persona non grata.
If I understood what you just said, and I could be wrong; NRDS is not peaceful, but rather an agreement to act peacefully towards those who we don't consider as unwelcome.
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Syn Callibri
Minmatar 21st Eridani Lighthorse
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Posted - 2010.11.02 04:26:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Borza Slavak
Originally by: Dusenman I have always viewed NRDS as a peaceful thing. This is because for the most part you are only going after the people who have proven themselves a threat.
It can be a means to ensure ones alliance mates focus on real threats and important targets rather than random passers-by. Just because you don't shoot neutrals doesn't mean you want to babysit.
THIS.
Syn Callibri Commander - Fleet Ops [21EL] Keeper of the Blood Pact
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Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard
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Posted - 2010.11.02 21:05:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Dusenman As I read the NCA set up to be a fighting origination.
Not necessarily. The NRDS Coalition mainly exists to be able to resist piracy/NBSI. Member alliances and corps do not even have to be involved in military actions at all. But the more together, the stronger.
Originally by: Dusenman And NRDS, is meant to be peaceful. Your against piracy, against those that fly NBSI, but NRDS means that don't fight them unless it is necessary.
As I think was made clear, NRDS doesnt have to be peaceful at all, especially considering the huge amount of pirates and NBSI sympathizsers out there. Today, those that embrace NRDS are probably even more involved in wars than those who embrace NBSI (usually alot more enemies). But obviously, I think it is safe to say that we all ultimately strive for peace.
Originally by: Dusenman The problem is that NCA is being build around a Rule of engagement. Lets take a look at CVA, as I understand things; they where build around fighting for the Amarr empire, and there for flew NRDS. (And I could be wrong.)
Well, especially in EvE, embracing NRDS means you have some level of desire for order and civilization in you. In EvE NRDS most often goes hand in hand with a philosophical choise, or the choise of just acting in a decent fashion. That is what keeps the members of the NCA together, and that is why NRDS is more than just a RoE.
Originally by: Dusenman The way this organization should be built is on a universal protection for all, as well a promoting peace. NCA should not give people a reason to go hunting everyone who flies NBSI or lives a life of piracy. I have always understood it in this way, if they leave you alone, then you should leave them alone.
"a universal protection for all, as well a promoting peace"; this is exactly what we strive for. The NCA does not give people a reason to go hunting anyone, because mostly, the NRDS groups are the hunted. So yet again, it is a matter of defence, and being stronger together. If pirates were not constantly harassing us, then I dont think they would be called pirates anymore? : )
Originally by: Dusenman There is also the problem of who is red. And as far as I know the only universal KOS list is owned by CVA. So for NCA to survive, and to work well, there would need a KOS list for players to know who is considered red. With out this, not only are you not a coalition, but you could end up with standings issues.
Again, in an ideal world, all who are truly NRDS would share standings list, not because they worked it out together, but because they have the same moral standpoint. Yes, this is an extreme viewpoint, and does not work 100%. But still, I have to say I am very surprised to see how much the standings of the different groups match. It would seem a pirate is a pirate wherever he is, and it would seem most NRDS groups agree to who is a pirate and who is not. : ) Minor difficulties can always be worked around, as long as the major standpoint and philosophy is the same. ___________________
Yulai Guard Forum |
Kazzzi
Amarr Heathen Legion Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.11.02 21:49:00 -
[42]
I'm convinced Codo here has an NHB Ultra Happy ChipÖ
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Evet Morrel
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.11.03 12:40:00 -
[43]
To the quasi-NRDS entities, slavers and enclosurists:
"... for me it has always boiled down to a very simple matter of choice, practicality and freedom. The NRDS principle emphasises choice ôto fire or not based on previous experienceö whereas the NBSI principle doesnÆt distinguish between previous hostility or previous neutrality and has the effect of trapping the pilots in question in a predetermined closed loop of aggression without preference." Jade Constantine, The True Knowledge
For The Star Fraction, NRDS is an expression of its commitment to free space, to a profound respect for mutual external relationships between human beings, acting as the Archimedean point outside of any political objective, conditioning the Fraction's dealings with everyone. In its strong form it is the free-space doctrine. However it is simply prudent, it is the foundation of the deontological explanation of Justice, and is a clear rejection of slavery.
A critic may argue that this is mere ideology insisting that such liberties are a product of the political objectives of the Fraction, arguing that they are contingent and arbitrary and therefore no more valid than the objectives they seek to realise. Actually they are outside these objectives, if we can agree that the principle of reciprocal or mutual freedom are grounded in equity or fairness then we might also agree that when Fractioneers speak of freedom they are also speaking of justice. However for the NRDS entities that tolerate slavery there is that contradiction.
"NBSI is indistinguishable from NRDS where everyone who isn't blue is set red. NRDS is indistinguishable from NBSI where everyone who isn't set red is set blue." Arkady Sadik, Electus Matari
Quite, it provides insight if you change the nomenclature slightly. If you consider NRDS as a variant of noncombatant immunity you're close to the mark. This means that the Star Fraction can't be described as terrorists or pirates, and it makes explicit their discrimination of innocence.
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Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard
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Posted - 2010.11.10 10:16:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Kazzzi I'm convinced Codo here has an NHB Ultra Happy ChipÖ
Nah, I'm just bent on trying to solve problems. Problems usually have a cause. Try to find that cause, neutralize it, and the problem will be solved. I'm not particularly happy, and have a very short way to the trigger finger when it comes to pirates. But I do have a strong desire to do my best to make New Eden a good place, where peace and freedom is more common than the current state of chaos.
Many would do good in setting aside minor differences and see what the biggest and gravest issues of this galaxy are. ___________________
Yulai Guard Forum |
Spoon Thumb
Mamaleek Black Inquisition
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Posted - 2010.11.10 15:47:00 -
[45]
People operate NBSI or NRDS because it is in their self-interest
CVA operate it because it gives them integrity and legitimacy and aids recruitment to their cause. SF do so because it gives them legitimacy and avoids making too many enemies. Many small 'empire' corporations run NRDS or something implicitly NRDS (CEO says 'Don't go smacking in local and picking random fights') simply so they don't get war-dec'ed and stomped on.
Ultimately though, it isn't an either/or thing, it is a guide for pilots to use along side their own discression. NRDS only works when reds are set very fast. If someone is stupid enough to just sit there like a lemon when attacked by a neutral 'because the alliance executor hasn't set them red' then they deserve to lose their ship
Equally, an NBSI organisation that shoots everything not blue is going to waste a lot of time shooting stuff of no practical or military value, and the reality is that they don't
0.0 alliances with enough space that they can't make good use of all of it will want to make money off it through neutrals using it and paying. Since this space is usually a long way from empire, few neutrals will get there on their own accord. NBSI with a blue renter alliance is easier to administer than NRDS as it allows exact record keeping (and tax collection) of renters, acts as a recruitment tool and makes providing the security that the renters are really paying for, easier to maintain. There are no issues with legitimacy, and it does all the other stuff NRDS does. In essence you make life difficult for non-blues but make it very easy to become blue
For other large entities, less time spent doing the extra diplomacy that NRDS creates, means more time doing other important things for the individual or alliance. When I was in CVA, Goonswarm and TCF were both set red, not because they were hostile, but simply because it was too much work for them to stop their pilots shooting neutrals in Providence, vs the minimal gain of being able to base out of Providence stations. Equally, Providence forces did not go marching off into TCF or Goon space simply because a few of their pilots had followed a different RoE than us.
I've seen a number of MM pilots in the past say they would not be overtly opposed to NRDS in their space, but when you look at the benefits to them, they are negligable, especially considering they already have an efficient system for recruiting new allies and coalition partners
The real problem is that the tools available for managing relationships with other entities is poor. You cannot mark people by intent. A much better system than the current one would allow alliances to have their own custom flags. For example 'unknown', 'neutral', 'to be avoided' (like the goons/tcf, where they operate a different RoE), 'pirate', 'hostile' (like someone actively attacking your space). Having a finer grainularity for 'reds' would aid pilots in space to make better decisions. 'I won't chase that guy because he's just passing through, but I will actively hunt these people who keep probing our mission runners'. I know almost no one who want to distinguish on their overviews between people with bounties on their heads or not, or people with security status less than zero, but those are the tools concord provides
Having different categories of 'blues' would also let you set fleets to allow people for different purposes, and increase security against spies.
Those improvements however, aren't going to happen. The only reason I can see that NRDS makes sense over a renter alliance is to allow whole alliances to be residents / renters, rather than forcing them to disband and join a renter alliance
And for NRDS to work, everyone has to follow the same list of reds. That's why I think you're doomed to fail as a political entity, as opposed to what you should be doing, which is lobbying concord etc and encouraging people to operate their own NRDS policies, independent of other NRDS groups
Join khanidpublic - a channel for supporters of the Khanid Kingdom |
The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.11.10 16:28:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Spoon Thumb
SF [operate NRDS] because it gives them legitimacy and avoids making too many enemies.
On the latter point, hardly that. The operation of principled NRDS engagement rules is neither here nor there when it comes to making enemies or not, except when dealing with dogmatic enclosurists, in which case the adherence to such principles will tend to make of them enemies. As to the former point, I will let others make their own judgements. The claim as a whole is rather mistaken.
The Star Fraction operates a principled and strict NRDS engagement ruleset because it is a means that best fits our ends, reflecting, as any principled means must, the morality of our ends in the morality of the means.
The Cosmopolite
The Star Fraction Communications Portal |
Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2010.12.30 10:31:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Codo Yagari on 30/12/2010 10:32:00
The NRDS Coalition now has a forum up and running:
http://nrdscoalition.com
(Please note the forum is still cosmetically under construction.) ___________________
Yulai Guard Forum |
Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
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Posted - 2010.12.30 13:46:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Codo Yagari
Im sure most people who lived in Providence during the more than 3 year long CVA reign would concur. NRDS = acting responsibly.
I do concur. You can't imagine how glad I am to even see the creation of such an entity, may it success, or fall. It eventually does not matter : only the will behind is of importance. You are one of those who definitly look toward the future and the potential synergy the whole New Eden has yet to offer.
If I was not stuck in the absurd but necessary proxy war between the Empire and the Republic, I would have gladly joined you. |
Pablos Locos
Caldari Discount Slave Emporium
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Posted - 2010.12.31 03:58:00 -
[49]
I would be interested in joining such a coalition but I have some concerns.
Who decides who is red? Will the coalition offer protection to it's fellow members? |
Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2010.12.31 12:00:00 -
[50]
There is no set red list in the coalition as such, but it is up to individual members to maintain standings as they fit. However, this is generally not an issue, as it is quite apparent to all who are hostile and who is not.
Regarding aquiring the assitance of other members of the NRDS Coalition, yes, this is one of the main ideas. However, due to the fact that many of the members are already tied up in major wars, the best way at this stage is to move where the help is, not ask the help to come to you. But in due time, as the NRDS Coalition grows, I am sure this will change as well. ___________________
Yulai Guard Forum |
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.12.31 13:11:00 -
[51]
I'm rather afraid the 'oppose piracy' side of things, makes dealing with NRDS ... problematic.
I mean, as an organization, Star Fraction looks to non interference. Fights between third parties are their own business. The reason is quite simple - what makes a pirate? If I open fire on someone who's a long standing enemy, whilst in low security space, I'll have to deal with the CONCORD parasites sending me nasty letters. This does not make me a pirate though. And I will return fire on anyone else who decides to have a pop, and - most likely - set them red as well.
They're thus valid targets, under our very strict 'NRDS' rules of engagement.
And we are strict about it - we will not fire on neutrals, unless we are fired upon first. We may set neutrals red for ideological reasons - with due notice. But that's it. It makes life really quite difficult at times, as we cannot assist allies in a fleet, against a neutral target. But it's a principle we believe in.
But piracy? Much harder to measure. I have engaged targets that have caused me to lose security status, and have to deal with fire from sentry guns. It's a measured choice - is engaging this target, who's a known hostile to us, worth that penalty. But that's really all there is to it. We don't recognize that CONCORD have any moral superiority. They're just another bunch of thugs with sticks that we have to factor in to our decisions to engage or not.
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Pablos Locos
Caldari Discount Slave Emporium
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Posted - 2010.12.31 19:14:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Codo Yagari There is no set red list in the coalition as such, but it is up to individual members to maintain standings as they fit. However, this is generally not an issue, as it is quite apparent to all who are hostile and who is not.
What would happen if two members of the NRDS coalition set each other mutually red for political reasons? |
Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.02 09:55:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Pablos Locos What would happen if two members of the NRDS coalition set each other mutually red for political reasons?
Well, with our membership rules (being opposed to piracy, and not being part of militia wars), we try to avoid any such situation. If it did happen, it would be dealt with on a case-to-case basis, and diplomatic efforts would of course be maximized in an attempt to defuse the situation.
However, I have to yet again express my baffledness over the fact that most NRDS groups seem to already have quite similar standings, since true NRDS groups seem to base their philosophies on the same "befriending is higher than blowing up" mentality.
So far there has been no major incidents among the members of the NRDS Coalition. ___________________
Yulai Guard Forum |
Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.02 10:04:00 -
[54]
Just to add a list, these are the current members of the NRDS Coalition:
Alliances: Republic Alliance [RE-AL] The Paganism Alliance [TPA] Omnimodus Alliance [OMNI] Care Factor [C.F] Intaki Prosperity Initiative [IPI] Silent Infinity [AFK] Supernova Federation [SNF] Pendragon Consortium [PDRI] Yulai Federation [YF]
Corps: Theia Aima Lilith [.LIL.] Jedi High Council [JEDIE] Combined Aerospace Operations Corporation [CAOC] Sci Tech Inc [SCI T] Pentag Blade [P.T.B] Cruel innovative Technologies [CITEC]
If you are serious in your fight for NRDS, I can very much recommend you join. We are still in an infant stage, but with time, effort, and more people, I am confident that this coalition can bear some really good fruit. ___________________
Yulai Guard Forum |
Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
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Posted - 2011.01.02 11:57:00 -
[55]
So uh... Militia members are not allowed ? May I ask why, by curiosity ? |
Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.02 12:34:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Lyn Farel So uh... Militia members are not allowed ? May I ask why, by curiosity ?
It would undermine the main purpose of the NRDS Coalition, which is to promote peace and civilization in New Eden. By accepting militia organizations as members there would quickly be an issue between Amarr/Caldari and Gallente/Minmatar interests. We have to look at the big picture and realize who the biggest and most serious enemy is; piracy and NBSI. ___________________
Yulai Guard Forum |
Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
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Posted - 2011.01.02 12:41:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Lyn Farel on 02/01/2011 12:41:45 Well as much as this description does not fit at all to my corporation, I plainly understand your point.
Thank you for the answer.
I would just have to add though even if all the factions are usually fighting against each other, a lot of them are gathered together against the Sansha in the Syne protocols, for example, despite their dislike for each other. |
Kazzzi
Amarr Heathen Legion Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.01.03 09:49:00 -
[58]
If your coalition is completely ignorant of politics in New Eden and is solely concerned with piracy, shouldn't this thread be moved to the Crime and Punishment forum?
Ah, but you aren't completely ignorant of politics are you? Looking at your member list and your own history, I'm seeing quite a bit of Imperial Amarrian bias. Go ahead and tell me you wouldn't be thrilled if CVA retook all of Providence and continued with Operation Deliverance.
I believe this coalition is merely a scheme to dupe rookie pilots into following Imperialist propaganda. It will take quite a lot to convince many of us otherwise. |
Syyl'ara
Gallente Intaki Prosperity Initiative
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Posted - 2011.01.03 10:40:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Kazzzi If your coalition is completely ignorant of politics in New Eden and is solely concerned with piracy, shouldn't this thread be moved to the Crime and Punishment forum?
Ah, but you aren't completely ignorant of politics are you? Looking at your member list and your own history, I'm seeing quite a bit of Imperial Amarrian bias. Go ahead and tell me you wouldn't be thrilled if CVA retook all of Providence and continued with Operation Deliverance.
I believe this coalition is merely a scheme to dupe rookie pilots into following Imperialist propaganda. It will take quite a lot to convince many of us otherwise.
Hasty Generalization Guilt-by-Association Straw Man Ad Hominem Biased Sampling Poisoning the Well Presumptive Claims Projection
In some cases, you're down to one fallacy per sentence...
...keep working on it. |
Borza Slavak
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.01.03 13:10:00 -
[60]
Syyl'ara avoiding uncomfortable issues by pretending this is formal debating? What a surprise. Yelling "logical fallacy" will hardly settle the situation.
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