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Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard
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Posted - 2010.08.31 14:08:00 -
[1]
Fellow New Edians!
With NBSI being the obvious strong force in New Eden, spreading it's policy of decay and cold "survival of the fittest" mentality, it's time that the NRDS groups start cooperating.
The NRDS Coalition [NCA] is formed as a means for all serious NRDS groups of the entire New Eden galaxy to come together, get to know each other, share intel, cooperate, and fight the piracy that is NBSI.
Alliances, corps and even solo characters are welcome into the NRDS Coalition. The only requirements for membership are that the entity practises Universal NRDS and is opposed to piracy and similar acts of criminality.
Currently the NRDS Coalition consists of two in-game channels, one for regular communication, and one for sharing intel of large fleet movements etc. The next upcoming step is a common forum.
If you are interested in joining the fight against the NBSI hordes, or just have further inquiries, do not hesitate to join the NRDS Coalition Diplomatic Channel "DIPLO-NCA", or contact Codo Yagari of the Yulai Guard directly.
Long Live New Eden!
For Honour and Decency! o7 ________________________
Yulai Guard Forum |
Garreck
Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2010.08.31 15:05:00 -
[2]
A worthy initiative, Lord Yagari. I do have a concern:
Originally by: Codo Yagari The only requirements for membership are that the entity practises Universal NRDS and is opposed to piracy and similar acts of criminality.
How will you handle Fractionite pilots who show interest? I think you'll find common rules of engagement won't always imply compatibility...
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2010.08.31 15:09:00 -
[3]
Why would the NRDS PIE co-operate with the NRDS Electus Matari when our objectives are diametrically opposed?
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
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Posted - 2010.08.31 15:16:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Codo Yagari [...]joining the fight against the NBSI hordes[...]
If you end up setting all of the NBSI organizations red, what's the point of having a NRDS policy?
Peace,
-ChT Biko
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Syn Callibri
Blacklight Incorporated Broken Chains Alliance
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Posted - 2010.08.31 15:21:00 -
[5]
FYI...
It is my understanding that both Blacklight Incorporated and the Broken Chains Alliance it is a member of are NRDS supporters.
Syn Callibri Ilharess of the Scorpion Clan Naut-elghinyrr of Vulkor
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Silas Vitalia
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
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Posted - 2010.08.31 15:21:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Silas Vitalia on 31/08/2010 15:21:44
Originally by: Codo Yagari The only requirements for membership are that the entity practises Universal NRDS and is opposed to piracy and similar acts of criminality.
A noble objective, and we applaud any initiative to fight lawlessness and criminality. Perhaps you could provide some more specific information with regards to what constitutes 'criminal' activity for your group? Are you taking certain political affiliations into account or limiting your actions to run of the mill gate-campers, mission-invaders, and general agitators?
These are important distinctions; for example plenty of capsuleers that we consider criminals and often fire on would be seen as anything but to people on certain opposite sides of the political spectrum.
Example: I'm absolutely going to fire upon anyone I consider working against the interests of the Kingdom, much the same as I'm sure I would be aggressed were any of the Matari agitators to see me flying around low-sec in the Republic.
Would coordinated fleets take these issues into account?
Silas Vitalia CEO Khanid Provincial Vanguard Open for Recruitment!
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Artemis97
Caldari Resistance Project
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Posted - 2010.08.31 15:30:00 -
[7]
Agreeing on terms of RoE is not a reason to have blue standings or to fleet up together. It just means you have similar requirements for escalation of force.
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Altaen
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari
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Posted - 2010.08.31 16:04:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Rodj Blake Why would the NRDS PIE co-operate with the NRDS Electus Matari when our objectives are diametrically opposed?
A good question indeed. Moreso, Electus Matari, and I'm sure PIE Inc. have non-criminal reds, therefore our definition of NRDS is somewhat different than some others. One of the main reasons an organization should seek blue status with EM is for protection while firing on non-outlaw reds, which we do quite frequently.
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.08.31 16:06:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Garreck A worthy initiative, Lord Yagari. I do have a concern:
Originally by: Codo Yagari The only requirements for membership are that the entity practises Universal NRDS and is opposed to piracy and similar acts of criminality.
How will you handle Fractionite pilots who show interest? I think you'll find common rules of engagement won't always imply compatibility...
I'm guessing we will simply be considered enemies because we refuse to force the standards of 3rd parties to comply with a central hierarchy. That would be the CVA standings enclosurist clause. Codo's "NRDS" is about control not freedom or justice.
Join the Revolution!
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Garreck
Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2010.08.31 16:10:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Altaen our definition of NRDS is somewhat different than some others.
I think the definition is always the same. I mean..."not red, don't shoot." The definition is in the term itself.
The problem comes in application. Who is red?
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.08.31 16:12:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Garreck
Originally by: Altaen our definition of NRDS is somewhat different than some others.
I think the definition is always the same. I mean..."not red, don't shoot." The definition is in the term itself.
The problem comes in application. Who is red?
Typically people that shoot us or people who we oppose politically, and I guess thats the same for most "NRDS" or crypto-NRDS entities. How one gets to be red is the key point in that you and I have always agreed to differ on.
Join the Revolution!
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Garreck
Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2010.08.31 16:12:00 -
[12]
Structured society demands controls, Ms Constantine. What you speak of so venomously is a fact of life. Without control, chaos reigns.
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Sinjin Mokk
Amarr Khanid Provincial Vanguard
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Posted - 2010.08.31 16:16:00 -
[13]
I too applaud your dedication to impose law and order.
Do you mean for your coalition to maintain law in just 0.0 space or do you see your group operating in low and high-sec as well? How will your coaltion differ from Concord?
How will you avoid corruption?
Serving the Dark Amarr
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Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard
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Posted - 2010.08.31 16:31:00 -
[14]
Thankyou all for your questions and comments. I will try to answer them to the best of my ability.
Originally by: Garreck How will you handle Fractionite pilots who show interest? I think you'll find common rules of engagement won't always imply compatibility...
From where I stand, an organization that practices NRDS and claims to be opposed to piracy has laid itself a moral foundation that per default, it will not engage neutral pilots, and it will also be objected to that others engage neutral pilots for no good reason. It will not engage others if there is a feasible possibility to avoid it. By following true NRDS one somehow shows a desire for peace, sincerity and order.
IÆve had the following discussion several times with various characters, but I must reaffirm my standpoint that practising NBSI is a form of piracy, where neutrals will be shot on sight, for no other reason than that the NBSI force either enjoys too shoot random people, or they believe themselves to be too weak to be able to survive maintaining NRDS where they currently operate. However, I cannot see any proper excuse for being NBSI, it is just too aggressive a policy to be labeled civil. It is a form of piracy.
Some alliances claim to practice NRDS, but have close ties to pirate and NBSI factions, and obviously these groups do not oppose piracy at all. One such example is the Star Fraction, anarchists and collaborators with Against All Authorities and DamuÆKhonde/UshraÆKhan, alliances that are well known to practice NBSI. Obviously, such groups as these would not be permitted to join the NRDS Coalition, unless the ties to the NBSI groups were severed.
The membership requirements of the NRDS Coalition are aiming to only allowing those organizations and characters who have an honest, normal and balanced desire for the restoration of civilization in the whole of our galaxy, into itÆs ranks.
Originally by: Rodj Blake Why would the NRDS PIE co-operate with the NRDS Electus Matari when our objectives are diametrically opposed?
A very valid and interesting question. As mentioned above, the NRDS Coalition believes that those that truly stand for NRDS and want to maintain and spread civilization and peace; they have taken the most major step towards showing that they have a desire to be on the good side of things, so to speak. Obviously, New Eden is a very big place, and there are a lot of different arguments going on. Some of them are more unfortunate than others. The conflict between two truly NRDS organizations that are both opposed to piracy, I find to be one of the most disheartening occurances, considering the overwhelming strength of NBSI in the galaxy today. According to my belief, ALL truly NRDS entities should and must stand together in order for us to actually bring about a change.
However, some grudges are old, and solutions may seem too far away to even be considered. I realize that there will be numerous challenges and problems on the way to bringing NRDS groups together, and because of this the most important thing is to deal with one problem at a time, as they arise, and practically need to be dealt with. Or else the obstacle would seem too large. One step at a time.
I do sincerely hope that we may one day lay aside our grudges so we can all focus on the one major problem that we actually all share; the piracy and NBSI of New Eden.
Originally by: Che Biko[:| If you end up setting all of the NBSI organizations red, what's the point of having a NRDS policy?
The NRDS policy strives towards and show an indication of showing respect per default. Only those that are considered dangerous, or a threat, are attacked. If we want to take the side of the common capsuleer of New Eden, we need to oppose NBSI, because with NBSI, the common capsuleer is a valid target.
________________________
Yulai Guard Forum |
Artemis97
Caldari Resistance Project
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Posted - 2010.08.31 16:37:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Sinjin Mokk I too applaud your dedication to impose law and order.
Do you mean for your coalition to maintain law in just 0.0 space or do you see your group operating in low and high-sec as well? How will your coaltion differ from Concord?
How will you avoid corruption?
Impose law and order?
Law is a set of rules agreed upon a society and government that are enforced by subsidies of the same.
Tell me... how is it possible for multiple organizations with completely differing ideologies, organizational structure and political alignment to agree upon a set rule of law?
I'll answer for you... it's not.
Coalition infers cooperation, even in it's loosest sense. To expect people to join a coalition in which the only thing they have in common are their Rules of Engagement is silly and impractical. You seem to have mixed up the meanings and confused RoE with philosophical / political alignment.
Do all NBSI organizations rally together simply because they shoot everyone who isn't blue? No, they don't. So what makes NRDS special?
Just because you have a common system of only shooting those deemed internally to be enemies / valid targets, doesn't mean that you should band together with organizations that do the same.
Coalitions and allegiances are made based off of mutually beneficial situations and similar political / organizational goals. This isn't practical, realistic and it honestly doesn't make any sense at all.
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Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard
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Posted - 2010.08.31 16:41:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Silas Vitalia Perhaps you could provide some more specific information with regards to what constitutes 'criminal' activity for your group? Are you taking certain political affiliations into account or limiting your actions to run of the mill gate-campers, mission-invaders, and general agitators?
Would coordinated fleets take these issues into account?
The NRDS Coalition considers it a crime to militarily attack ships and organizations that are not a strategical or tactical military threat, or perhaps more clearly, who have no intent of causing harm. We do want to keep things as uncomplicated as possible, since the fight to uphold decency is, theoretically, a very simple thing to do. Our current members consist of 0.0 sec alliances and low + high sec corps, and we all share the above creed. I see no reason why one should limit oneself in this matter, as I am sure all groups in New Eden can be divided into 2 parts, the ones that honour the above, and the ones that do not.
Originally by: Artemis97 Agreeing on terms of RoE is not a reason to have blue standings or to fleet up together. It just means you have similar requirements for escalation of force.
Aye, as I said above, I will say it again: From where I stand, an organization that practices NRDS and claims to be opposed to piracy has laid itself a moral foundation that per default, it will not engage neutral pilots, and it will also be objected to that others engage neutral pilots for no good reason. It will not engage others if there is a feasible possibility to avoid it. By following true NRDS one somehow shows a desire for peace, sincerity and order.
Originally by: Sinjin Mokk Do you mean for your coalition to maintain law in just 0.0 space or do you see your group operating in low and high-sec as well? How will your coaltion differ from Concord?
How will you avoid corruption?
The NRDS Coalition does not limit oneself to space, but rather to having set moral values. We have members from high, low and 0.0 sec space.
Now, if I may be so bold to say that Concord does lack the proper eyes to see who is truly on the ôrightö side of things, meaning who does not want to cause harm. I have tried to adapt fully to it, but it seems impossible. A police force that accepts an amount of ISK to look the other way (Concord permitted, non-mutual war decs); what is this if not just ôISK above Moralsö. Many high sec mining corps have found themselves to be without Concord protection because of this policy that Concord has. I cannot see an excuse to it. However, I do not wish to speak too badly of Concord, they do fill an important role. We do try to work with them and adapt as we can, as I am sure, do we all, when we travel in high and low sec.
How to avoid corruption? Have faith in good. : ) ________________________
Yulai Guard Forum |
Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard
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Posted - 2010.08.31 16:47:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Artemis97 Tell me... how is it possible for multiple organizations with completely differing ideologies, organizational structure and political alignment to agree upon a set rule of law?
Coalition infers cooperation, even in it's loosest sense. To expect people to join a coalition in which the only thing they have in common are their Rules of Engagement is silly and impractical. You seem to have mixed up the meanings and confused RoE with philosophical / political alignment.
As I have mentioned, the assumption is made that those that truly embrace NRDS and are opposed to piracy have embraced a philosophy that unite them on the most basic and fundamental level, which is that of not wanting to cause unnecessary harm. After that, they may differ on other values, and other complex differences may exist, but the most essential foundation for a possible friendship and cooperation has been laid. ________________________
Yulai Guard Forum |
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.08.31 16:51:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Codo Yagari
Originally by: Artemis97 Tell me... how is it possible for multiple organizations with completely differing ideologies, organizational structure and political alignment to agree upon a set rule of law?
Coalition infers cooperation, even in it's loosest sense. To expect people to join a coalition in which the only thing they have in common are their Rules of Engagement is silly and impractical. You seem to have mixed up the meanings and confused RoE with philosophical / political alignment.
As I have mentioned, the assumption is made that those that truly embrace NRDS and are opposed to piracy have embraced a philosophy that unite them on the most basic and fundamental level, which is that of not wanting to cause unnecessary harm. After that, they may differ on other values, and other complex differences may exist, but the most essential foundation for a possible friendship and cooperation has been laid.
For arguments sake can you list the organizations that you consider have adopted NRDS and appropriately rejected piracy (NBSI) by having absolutely no history of cooperation with (or tolerance of) neutral shooting entities in their + or neutral standings lists?
Join the Revolution!
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ChipMo
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.08.31 19:04:00 -
[19]
Shame, I connected to this thread with interest. Alas it is just another example of a megalomaniac trying to impose his standings on others through the guise of "NRDS" and the tarnish of "piracy".
*ChipMo sighs...
Can I have those 5 minutes of my life back please?
Got a dispute? Take it to court with the CCCNP! |
Kazzzi
Amarr Minmatar Ship Construction Services Damu'Khonde
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Posted - 2010.08.31 20:49:00 -
[20]
A coalition based solely on ROE with no real defining principles, how quaint. |
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Nykitah
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Posted - 2010.08.31 21:03:00 -
[21]
Man, Codo is a little foolish and idealistic for my own tastes with the whole idea to unite the galaxy against the evil of NBSI. Ain't got much hope to be honest what with everyone being so damn spread out and bickering.
New Eden is a damn dirty place to begin with, lotta back-stabbing and underhanded **** being done on every side, so creating a coalition based on morals and good will and that sort of idealism just seems like a bad idea to begin with in this fun little galaxy.
But standing by him is a lot damn better than *****ing and complaning that it ain't gonna work in the first place. So screw you all, you got our support Codo.
Also, it's damn amusing to see the self-proclaimed supreme justice of that CCCNP talking about not holding onto principles, considering his own claim of being impartial and fair while belonging to an group with clear political goals... anarchistic civil court maybe? Heh, damn funny if you ask me.
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Arkady Sadik
Minmatar Electus Matari
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Posted - 2010.08.31 22:28:00 -
[22]
NBSI is indistinguishable from NRDS where everyone who isn't blue is set red. NRDS is indistinguishable from NBSI where everyone who isn't set red is set blue.
The idea of "NRDS vs. NBSI" is about what you do with someone whose clan and tribe ("corp and alliance" for capsuleers) you have never met before - are you careful and shoot first, ask questions later, or are you trusting and see what he is about? Groups that adhere to NRDS all agree that "trust him, shoot only when threatened" is the right initial reaction. Once contact is established, though, the common ground ends and the groups diverge greatly.
EM shoots groups who commit crimes such as slavery, piracy, extortion, and similar. If you are a slaver, you can be the nicest person ever in space, you are a criminal and will be shot. If you are a "honorable pirate" who never smacks in local and honors all ransoms you might be quite a likeable person, but you are still a criminal and will be shot. But if you do this only in uncivilized areas of space such as the Amarr Empire, we do not care. We have our requirements for when we shoot you and when not - civil requirements, but requirements nontheless. Requirements others disagree on.
SF shoots only those who shoot them first, not wanting to impose any rules on others at all.
CVA then again is very similar to EM in how they have requirements which you have to adhere to, otherwise to be shot, but is then very different in the exact details of those requirements. Sadly, they accept slavery without a problem, but on the other hand put freedom fighters onto their list.
As barbarians such as the CVA have been running the most successful NRDS space for years, I am afraid that the idea that NRDS is somehow correlated with "being civilized" is ignoring reality quite heavily.
Obviously, what people define as "barbarian hordes" will differ depending on who you ask. I hope that does not surprise anyone. It is the core of the problem of unifying all NRDS entities.
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Syn Callibri
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Posted - 2010.09.01 02:48:00 -
[23]
It would appear to me that NRDS means different things to different groups. For us it is a way to avoid calateral damage as much as possible, for others...????????
Syn Callibri Mistress of the Blood Pact "Naut-elghinyrr" of Vulkor-Khaine
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Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard
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Posted - 2010.09.01 03:45:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Codo Yagari on 01/09/2010 03:48:41
There are indeed many stones to stumble on the path to a righteous galaxy, and many obstacles that may seem difficult or even impossible to pass. However, where there is a will, there is a way. Originally, we all come from the same planet and have the same origins. We are, in essence, one. This is my faith in humanity, that everything is possible, should we want it, and if it is a pure and worthy goal. I have faith in the humanity of New Eden, and I ask you to share this faith with me. Minmatar, Gallente, Caldari or Amarrian, it matters not; we are, regardless if we recognize it or not, brothers and sisters. ________________________
Yulai Guard Forum |
Icarus3
Gallente DAEDALUS X Damu'Khonde
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Posted - 2010.09.01 09:33:00 -
[25]
do you not see that by doing this you are simply creating a communications device where all NRDS alliances who are -10 to each other can spy on each other?
nice effort Codo, but seriously you need to get realistic about this. It's going to do more damage than good.
A new EVE community DX4 Web Portal |
Phosphorus Palladium
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Posted - 2010.09.01 11:08:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Phosphorus Palladium on 01/09/2010 11:15:17
Originally by: Codo Yagari ...fight the piracy that is NBSI.
So you say: NBSI = Piracy
An interesting definition that I am inclined to agree with somewhat.
Let me tell you an interesting story:
A friend of mine used to life in no sec. His buddies and himself patroled their space following the NBSI doctrine. They would set up gate camps in "their" space, and kill anything not blue that tried to get through. But it did not stop there.
They would also go roaming through space that they did not claim. Killing everything they found, causing carnage and horror. Some victims tried to survive by ejecting from their ships, in those cases people in my friends gang in cheap ships would eject as well and take the abandoned vessels as their own.
My friend said, in his mind they were hunters. Doing it for the sport. The more a pilot killed, the higher his recognition became. My friends recognition was very high, because he was always out for "blood".
"I was waiting for the 'kick' that others said I would get from blowing up a victims ship" these are his words on why he did what he did.
But, he says, this kick never came for him. "I felt nothing in battle. No euphory, no fear, just nothing. No feelings at all. I guess that is what made me such a successfull killer. When others either paniced or fell for traps I would stay completely calm and could take the right decisions to engage or not engage, to win or abandon a fight. That is also the reason why I later became one of those to lead our gangs. My gangs never lost."
Then one day, when he was on a shopping trip in high security space, he says he heard some people he did not know chatting in the local channel about him. They talked about him being a dangerous pirate. "I had recognized people try dock in stations or try to get out when I entered the systems. They knew, when I came, my gang would soon follow. And then we would kill all those who had not managed to get to safety. But it shocked me to hear foreigners talk about me as a pirate.I never saw myself as a pirate. I saw myself as a sportsman." He said, that being called a pirate made him think about what he had been doing. He came to the conclusion that he was not a pirate. "Because we did not do it to gain material goods. Of course we took them when they were floating around after the battles. When I thought about it, we were worse than pirates. We were murderers without a cause." He said, the more he thought about it, the less he liked what he was doing.
"I never got a kick as I said. So why was I killing all those people I did not even know? For sport, yes. But in the end killing as a sport is a bit sick. And others saw me as a pirate, not a sportsman."
My friend stopped. He flew back to high security empire, and never boarded a space ship again.
"Maybe I will fly again some day" he says "but then I want a cause. A noble reason to fight. I am a good fighter. But just killing everybody in sight only because I can just does not seem right to me anymore. Until I have found that noble reason, I will not enter a ship again."
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Syn Callibri
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Posted - 2010.09.01 13:08:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Icarus3 do you not see...
You would be correct...IF they were foolish enough to disclose anything of a sensitive internal nature that had nothing to do with what ever operation was ongoing at the time...
...on second thought most beings are fools in large groups, so your probably right.
Syn Callibri Mistress of the Blood Pact "Naut-elghinyrr" of Vulkor-Khaine
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Sinjin Mokk
Amarr Khanid Provincial Vanguard
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Posted - 2010.09.01 14:02:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Sinjin Mokk on 01/09/2010 14:03:52
Originally by: Codo Yagari
The NRDS Coalition does not limit oneself to space, but rather to having set moral values. We have members from high, low and 0.0 sec space.
Now, if I may be so bold to say that Concord does lack the proper eyes to see who is truly on the ôrightö side of things, meaning who does not want to cause harm. I have tried to adapt fully to it, but it seems impossible. A police force that accepts an amount of ISK to look the other way (Concord permitted, non-mutual war decs); what is this if not just ôISK above Moralsö. Many high sec mining corps have found themselves to be without Concord protection because of this policy that Concord has. I cannot see an excuse to it. However, I do not wish to speak too badly of Concord, they do fill an important role. We do try to work with them and adapt as we can, as I am sure, do we all, when we travel in high and low sec.
How to avoid corruption? Have faith in good. : )
What you describe, is pretty much what I thought. Perhaps ômoralsö though isnÆt quite the right word. Trying to change a personÆs concept of morality is devilish hard work. How about we use the word, ômannersö instead?
If you had two groups of differing philosophies operating out of a system and a third, more aggressive group moves in, the two could conceivable band together to fight the intruder?
It sounds good in conception.
So did the basic idea that lead to the formation of Concord. And weÆve seen (especially lately) how Concord works and how it fails to work according to its initial conception. And you are right, there is no excuse.
Faith in good? I have faith in God, in my King and the Empire. I have faith in my Corp and in the pilots I fly with. I have faith in my House. On the subject of interstellar corruption, I am long past innocence and fast approaching apathy.
As Nykitah so wisely said, New Eden is a damn, dirty place.
Despite the altruism though, I think it is important to try and impose these manners. If not, all will lead to chaos.
Serving the Dark Amarr
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Solaris233
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.11.01 11:22:00 -
[29]
Well NRDS sounds great on paper it really does.
Problem is this is a video game and you have ever been to 0.0 you know that most strangers are out to get you.
Im not risking my 350 mil tengu in NRDS space, why?
If Im in NBSI space and a neut comes to my system im ratting in and i immedatly report him in intel and align to safe or pos.
In a NRDS system I would never be able to run sanctums not even for a second, cuz the gankers would have the advantage.
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Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard
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Posted - 2010.11.01 11:54:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Codo Yagari on 01/11/2010 12:00:35
Well, if you've ever been living in NRDS controlled 0.0 sec space, you know it is very possible, not an issue at all.
NBSI creates this fear of everyone, whereas NRDS promotes a spirit of friendship and openess.
Im sure most people who lived in Providence during the more than 3 year long CVA reign would concur. NRDS = acting responsibly.
On a side note, the NRDS Coalition now consist of 6 alliances and 7 corps. If you believe in NRDS and acting responsibly, join our diplomatic channel "DIPLO-NCA" so we can have a chat, alternatively contact me directly. ___________________
Yulai Guard Forum |
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Borza Slavak
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.11.01 12:08:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Codo Yagari
From where I stand, an organization that practices NRDS and claims to be opposed to piracy
One does not have to be opposed to others practising piracy in order to not practice it oneself.
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Dusenman
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.01 18:53:00 -
[32]
The problem with this whole set up, as I see it; is as follows:
As I read the NCA set up to be a fighting origination. And NRDS, is meant to be peaceful. Your against piracy, against those that fly NBSI, but NRDS means that don't fight them unless it is necessary.
The problem is that NCA is being build around a Rule of engagement. Lets take a look at CVA, as I understand things; they where build around fighting for the Amarr empire, and there for flew NRDS. (And I could be wrong.)
The way this organization should be built is on a universal protection for all, as well a promoting peace. NCA should not give people a reason to go hunting everyone who flies NBSI or lives a life of piracy. I have always understood it in this way, if they leave you alone, then you should leave them alone.
There is also the problem of who is red. And as far as I know the only universal KOS list is owned by CVA. So for NCA to survive, and to work well, there would need a KOS list for players to know who is considered red. With out this, not only are you not a coalition, but you could end up with standings issues.
So for those who TL;DR:
NCA should have/ promote the following: 1. universal protection for all, as well a promoting peace. 2. Have a universal KOS list to protect against standings issues. 3. NCA needs to be built around something other than ROE
Dusenman
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Borza Slavak
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.11.01 21:12:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Borza Slavak on 01/11/2010 21:14:39
Originally by: Dusenman
The way this organization should be built is on a universal protection for all, as well a promoting peace.
What precisely does this have to do with Not Red Don't Shoot?
Quote: NCA needs to be built around something other than ROE
So why name it after an RoE?
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Andreus Ixiris
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.11.01 21:27:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Dusenman And NRDS, is meant to be peaceful.
Where on Earth did you get that impression? ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Dusenman
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.01 21:52:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Borza Slavak Edited by: Borza Slavak on 01/11/2010 21:14:39
Originally by: Dusenman
The way this organization should be built is on a universal protection for all, as well a promoting peace.
What precisely does this have to do with Not Red Don't Shoot?
Quote: NCA needs to be built around something other than ROE
So why name it after an RoE? ---------
Both very good points, I was simply stating my views on things. I have always viewed NRDS as a peaceful thing. This is because for the most part you are only going after the people who have proven themselves a threat.
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
Originally by: Dusenman And NRDS, is meant to be peaceful.
Where on Earth did you get that impression?
I look at it this way, why have a policy of NRDS, where your only going to shoot at those who are considered red, or in most cases harmful to you, if your not going to be peaceful to everyone else. I am not saying that I am going to help them, or even talk to them. But not firing upon them you are being peaceful towards them.
If NRDS is not view as peaceful, at least in the fact that you are not going out and shooting everyone, but only those who have proven they are a threat to you, than I would ask for you to define in great detail what it mean to fly by a NRDS policy.
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Borza Slavak
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.11.01 22:28:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Dusenman I have always viewed NRDS as a peaceful thing. This is because for the most part you are only going after the people who have proven themselves a threat.
It can be a means to ensure ones alliance mates focus on real threats and important targets rather than random passers-by. Just because you don't shoot neutrals doesn't mean you want to babysit.
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Dusenman
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.01 22:53:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Borza Slavak
Originally by: Dusenman I have always viewed NRDS as a peaceful thing. This is because for the most part you are only going after the people who have proven themselves a threat.
It can be a means to ensure ones alliance mates focus on real threats and important targets rather than random passers-by. Just because you don't shoot neutrals doesn't mean you want to babysit.
Good point. I can also understand your point about the babysitting.
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Andreus Ixiris
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.11.01 22:59:00 -
[38]
NRDS is not "peaceful". NRDS is simply an assent that one will act peacefully towards those one has not specifically designated as persona non grata. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Dusenman
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.02 01:19:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris NRDS is not "peaceful". NRDS is simply an assent that one will act peacefully towards those one has not specifically designated as persona non grata.
If I understood what you just said, and I could be wrong; NRDS is not peaceful, but rather an agreement to act peacefully towards those who we don't consider as unwelcome.
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Syn Callibri
Minmatar 21st Eridani Lighthorse
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Posted - 2010.11.02 04:26:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Borza Slavak
Originally by: Dusenman I have always viewed NRDS as a peaceful thing. This is because for the most part you are only going after the people who have proven themselves a threat.
It can be a means to ensure ones alliance mates focus on real threats and important targets rather than random passers-by. Just because you don't shoot neutrals doesn't mean you want to babysit.
THIS.
Syn Callibri Commander - Fleet Ops [21EL] Keeper of the Blood Pact
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Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard
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Posted - 2010.11.02 21:05:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Dusenman As I read the NCA set up to be a fighting origination.
Not necessarily. The NRDS Coalition mainly exists to be able to resist piracy/NBSI. Member alliances and corps do not even have to be involved in military actions at all. But the more together, the stronger.
Originally by: Dusenman And NRDS, is meant to be peaceful. Your against piracy, against those that fly NBSI, but NRDS means that don't fight them unless it is necessary.
As I think was made clear, NRDS doesnt have to be peaceful at all, especially considering the huge amount of pirates and NBSI sympathizsers out there. Today, those that embrace NRDS are probably even more involved in wars than those who embrace NBSI (usually alot more enemies). But obviously, I think it is safe to say that we all ultimately strive for peace.
Originally by: Dusenman The problem is that NCA is being build around a Rule of engagement. Lets take a look at CVA, as I understand things; they where build around fighting for the Amarr empire, and there for flew NRDS. (And I could be wrong.)
Well, especially in EvE, embracing NRDS means you have some level of desire for order and civilization in you. In EvE NRDS most often goes hand in hand with a philosophical choise, or the choise of just acting in a decent fashion. That is what keeps the members of the NCA together, and that is why NRDS is more than just a RoE.
Originally by: Dusenman The way this organization should be built is on a universal protection for all, as well a promoting peace. NCA should not give people a reason to go hunting everyone who flies NBSI or lives a life of piracy. I have always understood it in this way, if they leave you alone, then you should leave them alone.
"a universal protection for all, as well a promoting peace"; this is exactly what we strive for. The NCA does not give people a reason to go hunting anyone, because mostly, the NRDS groups are the hunted. So yet again, it is a matter of defence, and being stronger together. If pirates were not constantly harassing us, then I dont think they would be called pirates anymore? : )
Originally by: Dusenman There is also the problem of who is red. And as far as I know the only universal KOS list is owned by CVA. So for NCA to survive, and to work well, there would need a KOS list for players to know who is considered red. With out this, not only are you not a coalition, but you could end up with standings issues.
Again, in an ideal world, all who are truly NRDS would share standings list, not because they worked it out together, but because they have the same moral standpoint. Yes, this is an extreme viewpoint, and does not work 100%. But still, I have to say I am very surprised to see how much the standings of the different groups match. It would seem a pirate is a pirate wherever he is, and it would seem most NRDS groups agree to who is a pirate and who is not. : ) Minor difficulties can always be worked around, as long as the major standpoint and philosophy is the same. ___________________
Yulai Guard Forum |
Kazzzi
Amarr Heathen Legion Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.11.02 21:49:00 -
[42]
I'm convinced Codo here has an NHB Ultra Happy ChipÖ
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Evet Morrel
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.11.03 12:40:00 -
[43]
To the quasi-NRDS entities, slavers and enclosurists:
"... for me it has always boiled down to a very simple matter of choice, practicality and freedom. The NRDS principle emphasises choice ôto fire or not based on previous experienceö whereas the NBSI principle doesnÆt distinguish between previous hostility or previous neutrality and has the effect of trapping the pilots in question in a predetermined closed loop of aggression without preference." Jade Constantine, The True Knowledge
For The Star Fraction, NRDS is an expression of its commitment to free space, to a profound respect for mutual external relationships between human beings, acting as the Archimedean point outside of any political objective, conditioning the Fraction's dealings with everyone. In its strong form it is the free-space doctrine. However it is simply prudent, it is the foundation of the deontological explanation of Justice, and is a clear rejection of slavery.
A critic may argue that this is mere ideology insisting that such liberties are a product of the political objectives of the Fraction, arguing that they are contingent and arbitrary and therefore no more valid than the objectives they seek to realise. Actually they are outside these objectives, if we can agree that the principle of reciprocal or mutual freedom are grounded in equity or fairness then we might also agree that when Fractioneers speak of freedom they are also speaking of justice. However for the NRDS entities that tolerate slavery there is that contradiction.
"NBSI is indistinguishable from NRDS where everyone who isn't blue is set red. NRDS is indistinguishable from NBSI where everyone who isn't set red is set blue." Arkady Sadik, Electus Matari
Quite, it provides insight if you change the nomenclature slightly. If you consider NRDS as a variant of noncombatant immunity you're close to the mark. This means that the Star Fraction can't be described as terrorists or pirates, and it makes explicit their discrimination of innocence.
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Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard
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Posted - 2010.11.10 10:16:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Kazzzi I'm convinced Codo here has an NHB Ultra Happy ChipÖ
Nah, I'm just bent on trying to solve problems. Problems usually have a cause. Try to find that cause, neutralize it, and the problem will be solved. I'm not particularly happy, and have a very short way to the trigger finger when it comes to pirates. But I do have a strong desire to do my best to make New Eden a good place, where peace and freedom is more common than the current state of chaos.
Many would do good in setting aside minor differences and see what the biggest and gravest issues of this galaxy are. ___________________
Yulai Guard Forum |
Spoon Thumb
Mamaleek Black Inquisition
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Posted - 2010.11.10 15:47:00 -
[45]
People operate NBSI or NRDS because it is in their self-interest
CVA operate it because it gives them integrity and legitimacy and aids recruitment to their cause. SF do so because it gives them legitimacy and avoids making too many enemies. Many small 'empire' corporations run NRDS or something implicitly NRDS (CEO says 'Don't go smacking in local and picking random fights') simply so they don't get war-dec'ed and stomped on.
Ultimately though, it isn't an either/or thing, it is a guide for pilots to use along side their own discression. NRDS only works when reds are set very fast. If someone is stupid enough to just sit there like a lemon when attacked by a neutral 'because the alliance executor hasn't set them red' then they deserve to lose their ship
Equally, an NBSI organisation that shoots everything not blue is going to waste a lot of time shooting stuff of no practical or military value, and the reality is that they don't
0.0 alliances with enough space that they can't make good use of all of it will want to make money off it through neutrals using it and paying. Since this space is usually a long way from empire, few neutrals will get there on their own accord. NBSI with a blue renter alliance is easier to administer than NRDS as it allows exact record keeping (and tax collection) of renters, acts as a recruitment tool and makes providing the security that the renters are really paying for, easier to maintain. There are no issues with legitimacy, and it does all the other stuff NRDS does. In essence you make life difficult for non-blues but make it very easy to become blue
For other large entities, less time spent doing the extra diplomacy that NRDS creates, means more time doing other important things for the individual or alliance. When I was in CVA, Goonswarm and TCF were both set red, not because they were hostile, but simply because it was too much work for them to stop their pilots shooting neutrals in Providence, vs the minimal gain of being able to base out of Providence stations. Equally, Providence forces did not go marching off into TCF or Goon space simply because a few of their pilots had followed a different RoE than us.
I've seen a number of MM pilots in the past say they would not be overtly opposed to NRDS in their space, but when you look at the benefits to them, they are negligable, especially considering they already have an efficient system for recruiting new allies and coalition partners
The real problem is that the tools available for managing relationships with other entities is poor. You cannot mark people by intent. A much better system than the current one would allow alliances to have their own custom flags. For example 'unknown', 'neutral', 'to be avoided' (like the goons/tcf, where they operate a different RoE), 'pirate', 'hostile' (like someone actively attacking your space). Having a finer grainularity for 'reds' would aid pilots in space to make better decisions. 'I won't chase that guy because he's just passing through, but I will actively hunt these people who keep probing our mission runners'. I know almost no one who want to distinguish on their overviews between people with bounties on their heads or not, or people with security status less than zero, but those are the tools concord provides
Having different categories of 'blues' would also let you set fleets to allow people for different purposes, and increase security against spies.
Those improvements however, aren't going to happen. The only reason I can see that NRDS makes sense over a renter alliance is to allow whole alliances to be residents / renters, rather than forcing them to disband and join a renter alliance
And for NRDS to work, everyone has to follow the same list of reds. That's why I think you're doomed to fail as a political entity, as opposed to what you should be doing, which is lobbying concord etc and encouraging people to operate their own NRDS policies, independent of other NRDS groups
Join khanidpublic - a channel for supporters of the Khanid Kingdom |
The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.11.10 16:28:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Spoon Thumb
SF [operate NRDS] because it gives them legitimacy and avoids making too many enemies.
On the latter point, hardly that. The operation of principled NRDS engagement rules is neither here nor there when it comes to making enemies or not, except when dealing with dogmatic enclosurists, in which case the adherence to such principles will tend to make of them enemies. As to the former point, I will let others make their own judgements. The claim as a whole is rather mistaken.
The Star Fraction operates a principled and strict NRDS engagement ruleset because it is a means that best fits our ends, reflecting, as any principled means must, the morality of our ends in the morality of the means.
The Cosmopolite
The Star Fraction Communications Portal |
Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2010.12.30 10:31:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Codo Yagari on 30/12/2010 10:32:00
The NRDS Coalition now has a forum up and running:
http://nrdscoalition.com
(Please note the forum is still cosmetically under construction.) ___________________
Yulai Guard Forum |
Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
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Posted - 2010.12.30 13:46:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Codo Yagari
Im sure most people who lived in Providence during the more than 3 year long CVA reign would concur. NRDS = acting responsibly.
I do concur. You can't imagine how glad I am to even see the creation of such an entity, may it success, or fall. It eventually does not matter : only the will behind is of importance. You are one of those who definitly look toward the future and the potential synergy the whole New Eden has yet to offer.
If I was not stuck in the absurd but necessary proxy war between the Empire and the Republic, I would have gladly joined you. |
Pablos Locos
Caldari Discount Slave Emporium
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Posted - 2010.12.31 03:58:00 -
[49]
I would be interested in joining such a coalition but I have some concerns.
Who decides who is red? Will the coalition offer protection to it's fellow members? |
Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2010.12.31 12:00:00 -
[50]
There is no set red list in the coalition as such, but it is up to individual members to maintain standings as they fit. However, this is generally not an issue, as it is quite apparent to all who are hostile and who is not.
Regarding aquiring the assitance of other members of the NRDS Coalition, yes, this is one of the main ideas. However, due to the fact that many of the members are already tied up in major wars, the best way at this stage is to move where the help is, not ask the help to come to you. But in due time, as the NRDS Coalition grows, I am sure this will change as well. ___________________
Yulai Guard Forum |
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.12.31 13:11:00 -
[51]
I'm rather afraid the 'oppose piracy' side of things, makes dealing with NRDS ... problematic.
I mean, as an organization, Star Fraction looks to non interference. Fights between third parties are their own business. The reason is quite simple - what makes a pirate? If I open fire on someone who's a long standing enemy, whilst in low security space, I'll have to deal with the CONCORD parasites sending me nasty letters. This does not make me a pirate though. And I will return fire on anyone else who decides to have a pop, and - most likely - set them red as well.
They're thus valid targets, under our very strict 'NRDS' rules of engagement.
And we are strict about it - we will not fire on neutrals, unless we are fired upon first. We may set neutrals red for ideological reasons - with due notice. But that's it. It makes life really quite difficult at times, as we cannot assist allies in a fleet, against a neutral target. But it's a principle we believe in.
But piracy? Much harder to measure. I have engaged targets that have caused me to lose security status, and have to deal with fire from sentry guns. It's a measured choice - is engaging this target, who's a known hostile to us, worth that penalty. But that's really all there is to it. We don't recognize that CONCORD have any moral superiority. They're just another bunch of thugs with sticks that we have to factor in to our decisions to engage or not.
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Pablos Locos
Caldari Discount Slave Emporium
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Posted - 2010.12.31 19:14:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Codo Yagari There is no set red list in the coalition as such, but it is up to individual members to maintain standings as they fit. However, this is generally not an issue, as it is quite apparent to all who are hostile and who is not.
What would happen if two members of the NRDS coalition set each other mutually red for political reasons? |
Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.02 09:55:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Pablos Locos What would happen if two members of the NRDS coalition set each other mutually red for political reasons?
Well, with our membership rules (being opposed to piracy, and not being part of militia wars), we try to avoid any such situation. If it did happen, it would be dealt with on a case-to-case basis, and diplomatic efforts would of course be maximized in an attempt to defuse the situation.
However, I have to yet again express my baffledness over the fact that most NRDS groups seem to already have quite similar standings, since true NRDS groups seem to base their philosophies on the same "befriending is higher than blowing up" mentality.
So far there has been no major incidents among the members of the NRDS Coalition. ___________________
Yulai Guard Forum |
Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.02 10:04:00 -
[54]
Just to add a list, these are the current members of the NRDS Coalition:
Alliances: Republic Alliance [RE-AL] The Paganism Alliance [TPA] Omnimodus Alliance [OMNI] Care Factor [C.F] Intaki Prosperity Initiative [IPI] Silent Infinity [AFK] Supernova Federation [SNF] Pendragon Consortium [PDRI] Yulai Federation [YF]
Corps: Theia Aima Lilith [.LIL.] Jedi High Council [JEDIE] Combined Aerospace Operations Corporation [CAOC] Sci Tech Inc [SCI T] Pentag Blade [P.T.B] Cruel innovative Technologies [CITEC]
If you are serious in your fight for NRDS, I can very much recommend you join. We are still in an infant stage, but with time, effort, and more people, I am confident that this coalition can bear some really good fruit. ___________________
Yulai Guard Forum |
Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
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Posted - 2011.01.02 11:57:00 -
[55]
So uh... Militia members are not allowed ? May I ask why, by curiosity ? |
Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.02 12:34:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Lyn Farel So uh... Militia members are not allowed ? May I ask why, by curiosity ?
It would undermine the main purpose of the NRDS Coalition, which is to promote peace and civilization in New Eden. By accepting militia organizations as members there would quickly be an issue between Amarr/Caldari and Gallente/Minmatar interests. We have to look at the big picture and realize who the biggest and most serious enemy is; piracy and NBSI. ___________________
Yulai Guard Forum |
Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
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Posted - 2011.01.02 12:41:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Lyn Farel on 02/01/2011 12:41:45 Well as much as this description does not fit at all to my corporation, I plainly understand your point.
Thank you for the answer.
I would just have to add though even if all the factions are usually fighting against each other, a lot of them are gathered together against the Sansha in the Syne protocols, for example, despite their dislike for each other. |
Kazzzi
Amarr Heathen Legion Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.01.03 09:49:00 -
[58]
If your coalition is completely ignorant of politics in New Eden and is solely concerned with piracy, shouldn't this thread be moved to the Crime and Punishment forum?
Ah, but you aren't completely ignorant of politics are you? Looking at your member list and your own history, I'm seeing quite a bit of Imperial Amarrian bias. Go ahead and tell me you wouldn't be thrilled if CVA retook all of Providence and continued with Operation Deliverance.
I believe this coalition is merely a scheme to dupe rookie pilots into following Imperialist propaganda. It will take quite a lot to convince many of us otherwise. |
Syyl'ara
Gallente Intaki Prosperity Initiative
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Posted - 2011.01.03 10:40:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Kazzzi If your coalition is completely ignorant of politics in New Eden and is solely concerned with piracy, shouldn't this thread be moved to the Crime and Punishment forum?
Ah, but you aren't completely ignorant of politics are you? Looking at your member list and your own history, I'm seeing quite a bit of Imperial Amarrian bias. Go ahead and tell me you wouldn't be thrilled if CVA retook all of Providence and continued with Operation Deliverance.
I believe this coalition is merely a scheme to dupe rookie pilots into following Imperialist propaganda. It will take quite a lot to convince many of us otherwise.
Hasty Generalization Guilt-by-Association Straw Man Ad Hominem Biased Sampling Poisoning the Well Presumptive Claims Projection
In some cases, you're down to one fallacy per sentence...
...keep working on it. |
Borza Slavak
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.01.03 13:10:00 -
[60]
Syyl'ara avoiding uncomfortable issues by pretending this is formal debating? What a surprise. Yelling "logical fallacy" will hardly settle the situation.
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Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.03 13:49:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Kazzzi If your coalition is completely ignorant of politics in New Eden and is solely concerned with piracy, shouldn't this thread be moved to the Crime and Punishment forum?
Ah, but you aren't completely ignorant of politics are you? Looking at your member list and your own history, I'm seeing quite a bit of Imperial Amarrian bias. Go ahead and tell me you wouldn't be thrilled if CVA retook all of Providence and continued with Operation Deliverance.
I believe this coalition is merely a scheme to dupe rookie pilots into following Imperialist propaganda. It will take quite a lot to convince many of us otherwise.
Because of the very reason that the founder of the NRDS Coalition, the Yulai Guard, started its NRDS Campaigns in Providence, and I am a former member of CVA, yes, the membership might be biased towards Amarr, but I assure you, this is only a product of geographical positioning. I personally didnt join CVA for any other reason than the fight for NRDS. Because the NRDS Coalitions main interest is in maintaining civilization in New Eden, it is my hope that with time and effort, all kinds of NRDS groups will join up, regardless of where they live, and what minor differences we all may have. ___________________
Yulai Guard Forum |
Souvera Corvus
THE PAROXYSM
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Posted - 2011.01.03 15:09:00 -
[62]
Having observed both NRDS and NBSI, I can assure you that it's not so much a case of civilisation as it is labeling.
Just a thought.
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Syyl'ara
Gallente Intaki Prosperity Initiative
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Posted - 2011.01.03 18:20:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Borza Slavak Syyl'ara avoiding uncomfortable issues by pretending this is formal debating? What a surprise. Yelling "logical fallacy" will hardly settle the situation.
I'm not avoiding the issue.
I'm not uncomfortable.
I'm under no illusion that any formal debate on this subject would ever occur with you.
Yelling "omg slavers!" whenever something has ancillary, coincidental, or even random similarity to those things you see as "evil" will hardly produce a rational outcome. This is just another example of distorting the facts to fit your pre-conceived paranoid narrative.
Ishukone Prosperity Exchange "Cooperation is the greater path than conflict." Syyl'ara Infrastructure Security Coordinator |
Kazzzi
Amarr Heathen Legion Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.01.03 18:22:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Syyl'ara
Hasty Generalization Guilt-by-Association Straw Man Ad Hominem Biased Sampling Poisoning the Well Presumptive Claims Projection
Thank you for this list. Yes, each of these can be applied to statements put forth by the OP. |
Borza Slavak
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.01.03 18:40:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Syyl'ara
Yelling "omg slavers!" whenever something has ancillary, coincidental, or even random similarity to those things you see as "evil" will hardly produce a rational outcome. This is just another example of distorting the facts to fit your pre-conceived paranoid narrative.
For one who enjoys pointing out logical fallacies instead of actually answering you seem to use a lot of them yourself.
Being in a coalition with capsuleers loyal to one of the slave-holding Powers is hardly random similarity. Besides, it really doesn't matter to us whether you agree with our values of right and wrong. We don't let others' opinions get in the way of what we see as just. Do you?
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Syyl'ara
Gallente Intaki Prosperity Initiative
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Posted - 2011.01.03 19:03:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Syyl''ara on 03/01/2011 19:06:35
Originally by: Borza Slavak For one who enjoys pointing out logical fallacies instead of actually answering you seem to use a lot of them yourself.
Yet you are unable to even name which ones, instead resorting to an impotent outburst of "nuh-uh, you are".
Quote: Being in a coalition with capsuleers loyal to one of the slave-holding Powers is hardly random similarity.
It isn't a similarity at all, perhaps you should look up what the word similar means. It has nothing to do with diplomatic orientations.
The similarities that do exist among the agreeing powers here is that of chosen engagement philosophy. Did U'K agree in every way with the operations of -A- and how they conducted themselves or were there some similarities in outlook and goals which produced a cooperative pact?
Now you get to pick between being an opportunist or being a hypocrite.
Choose wisely, I guess.
Quote: Besides, it really doesn't matter to us whether you agree with our values of right and wrong. We don't let others' opinions get in the way of what we see as just. Do you?
It isn't just opinions you disregard, it is facts, reason, and reality that often must go in order to continue your crusade, as well. Just as unyielding in your "faith" as the enemy you despise.
I do, in fact, consider the words of opponents carefully rather than outright dismissing them and operating in blind, obsessed pursuit of "cleansing" all "unrighteous" thoughts as you are doing. The degree to which you mirror your enemies is sometimes chilling and disturbing.
Originally by: Kazzzi Thank you for this list. Yes, each of these can be applied to statements put forth by the OP.
This, like the first of Borza's statements, is also an impotent outburst of "I know you are, but what am I". A typical tactic to resort to for those unable to generate their own independent thoughts. |
Syn Callibri
Minmatar 21st Eridani Lighthorse Broken Chains Alliance
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Posted - 2011.01.03 19:11:00 -
[67]
/gets popcorn
Commander Tac-Ops |
Kazzzi
Amarr Heathen Legion Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.01.03 19:15:00 -
[68]
Hey Syyl'ara, how's it feel to be in a coalition with Imperialists? Cause slavers are better than pirates amirite?
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Syyl'ara
Gallente Intaki Prosperity Initiative
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Posted - 2011.01.03 19:19:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Syyl''ara on 03/01/2011 19:20:28
Originally by: Kazzzi Hey Syyl'ara, how's it feel to be in a coalition with Imperialists? Cause slavers are better than pirates amirite?
More impotent rage.
I don't even need to memetically ask the question, you are quite clearly very upset right now.
-A- were imperialists, as well so I'll take that to mean that you've chosen hypocrisy as your answer. |
Borza Slavak
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.01.03 19:37:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Syyl'ara Edited by: Syyl''ara on 03/01/2011 19:13:39
Originally by: Borza Slavak For one who enjoys pointing out logical fallacies instead of actually answering you seem to use a lot of them yourself.
Yet you are unable to even name which ones, instead resorting to an impotent outburst of "nuh-uh, you are".
Do I really have to? Last time I called you on it you admitted to using one fallacy and waved away the others you had used. It's here on GalNet, though I'm amused by your continued huffing and puffing about How One Debates so feel free to ignore it.
Originally by: Syyl'ara
Quote: Being in a coalition with capsuleers loyal to one of the slave-holding Powers is hardly random similarity.
It isn't a similarity at all, perhaps you should look up what the word similar means. Being in a coalition is a diplomatic orientation, not a declaration that the participants agree in absolutely every way with each other. You are attempting to assert that by virtue of being a member of this coalition alone, one endorses or condones slavery somehow. That you've utterly failed to even remotely prove this claim seems to be eluding you.
Indeed. I was saying that it is not a random similarity. Please stop trying to write between the lines in my posts. As a member of this coalition you are co-operating with slavers against pirates. Whether you agree with them entirely or not is immaterial, you are indirectly supporting them. Don't pretend surprise at this, for years Ushra'Khan held each and every capsuleer eking a living out of CVA's Providence as collaborators by the same principle.
Originally by: Syyl'ara
Quote: Besides, it really doesn't matter to us whether you agree with our values of right and wrong. We don't let others' opinions get in the way of what we see as just. Do you?
It isn't just opinions you disregard, it is facts, reason, and reality that often must go in order to continue your crusade, as well. Just as unyielding in your "faith" as the enemy you despise.
You're missing my point. I said that we don't care about others' opinions of right and wrong after you felt the need to describe slavery as inverted comma evil inverted comma.
What your argument seems to come down to is angry pretentious words about how consorting with our enemies is insufficient reason for us to hold you in contempt and by doing so we are clearly insane. Obviously we disagree. Let's leave it at that, collaborator.
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Kazzzi
Amarr Heathen Legion Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.01.03 20:05:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Kazzzi on 03/01/2011 20:06:29 For the record, I do get quite upset when Imperial Amarrian interests are hidden under the guise of PR friendly terms like NRDS. Sometimes I even get upset enough to kill people. I suppose that makes me a pirate to report in your intel channel you share with several pro-Amarrian groups and even a pro-Khanid Kingdom one.
Though I admit I do admire Codo for his courage, drive and idealism, I still question his rationale, intentions and associations. |
Syyl'ara
Gallente Intaki Prosperity Initiative
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Posted - 2011.01.03 20:06:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Borza Slavak Do I really have to?
Yes, if you want the accusation to stick you need to do more than vaguely refer to an error being made somewhere in the statements.
Quote: Last time I called you on it you admitted to using one fallacy and waved away the others you had used. It's here on GalNet, though I'm amused by your continued huffing and puffing about How One Debates so feel free to ignore it.
Last time? See, again just vague and imprecise assertion. Also, I find my capacity to admit my mistakes to be a sign of maturity as opposed to those who presume themselves infallible. Finally, you act as if waving away fallacies is poor form and then go right on to say that the venue excuses it anyways. What a wonderful capacity for cognitive dissonance you seem to have.
Quote: Indeed. I was saying that it is not a random similarity. Please stop trying to write between the lines in my posts.
If there weren't holes in reasoning large enough to get a Megathron through, I wouldn't be able to.
Quote: As a member of this coalition you are co-operating with slavers against pirates. Whether you agree with them entirely or not is immaterial, you are indirectly supporting them.
It is quite relevant to the point...actually it is the entire point (which is why you so immediately dismiss it). You are arbitrarily determining what constitutes "indirect support" and where such a trivial distinction begins and ends. Has U'K never once in its history brought damage upon an entity for preying upon them which has also preyed upon a group which engages in slavery? Would it not then be just as guilty of this "indirect support" as those they now vilify? Just more hypocrisy, then.
Quote: Don't pretend surprise at this, for years Ushra'Khan held each and every capsuleer eking a living out of CVA's Providence as collaborators by the same principle.
Which is the very definition of guilt-by-association. A tactic employed by your enemies to extend slavery from one generation to another. This fits your pattern of hypocrisy displayed thus far, however, so no surprise is held on my part.
Quote: You're missing my point. I said that we don't care about others' opinions of right and wrong after you felt the need to describe slavery as inverted comma evil inverted comma.
There's a difference between missing the point and disagreeing with your point.
I wasn't dismissing slavery as evil as your statement attempts to opportunistically suggest, either. Just another example of you interpreting things however you wish to fit your narrative. You don't get to assert what the motives behind my statements are (Poisoning the Well) while simultaneously demanding I not infringe upon your right to see the world your way.
Quote: What your argument seems to come down to is angry pretentious words about how consorting with our enemies is insufficient reason for us to hold you in contempt and by doing so we are clearly insane. Obviously we disagree. Let's leave it at that, collaborator.
That is not my argument (Straw Man). My argument is that your outlook is inconsistently applied (Biased Sampling) and if it were, you'd find yourself equally guilty of what you hold to be such a damning affront.
So hold all the contempt you want, hypocrite.
Some of us don't let our beliefs get determined by fallacy-filled attempts to shame or stigmatize, to blow in the winds of ignorant public perception. I'm really not concerned with the opinions of those who would be swayed by the kind of hyperbolic rhetoric you employ to begin with. |
Elendria Sun'khar
Amarr Khanid Anti Slavery League
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Posted - 2011.01.03 20:45:00 -
[73]
Even I think it is ridiculous to accuse the Intaki Prosperity Initiative of collaboration with slavers. This coalition, it would seem to me, is based on an ideal, and one joins if one agrees with that ideal. The ideal is anti-piracy.
It really does seem that simple to me.
If you have some real evidence of slavery in the NCA, by all means produce it, I'm certain that the IPI will withdraw
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Pablos Locos
Caldari Discount Slave Emporium
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Posted - 2011.01.03 22:35:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Syyl'ara Impotent.. hypocrisy..
Your comments aren't helping Mr. Yagari's cause. Your incessant nit picking and irrational arguing is tarnishing his otherwise very interesting project.
I request that you would please show some self control and form your statements with a bit more tact. Many of us are very interested in seeing this unique project succeed. It would be a disappointment to see its reputation ruined by a loud mouthed brat.
As far as the detractors are concerned, you can't please everyone. Eventually the NRDS coalition may even help smooth political differences by unifying opposing factions against NBSI. |
Lyris Nairn
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.03 23:04:00 -
[75]
Look at all that yelling.
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Syyl'ara
Gallente Intaki Prosperity Initiative
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Posted - 2011.01.04 00:01:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Syyl''ara on 04/01/2011 00:15:28
Originally by: Pablos Locos Your comments aren't helping Mr. Yagari's cause. Your incessant nit picking and irrational arguing is tarnishing his otherwise very interesting project.
Mr. Yagari can speak for himself quite fine, I would assume. You presumptively postulating might actually be more insulting. In fact, as long as we're just making stuff up at random, I'll just go ahead and say it is.
You choosing to highlight how I used some abrasive words in my replies immediately followed by stuffing your own response full of negative adjectives is amusing to me.
Quote: I request that you would please show some self control and form your statements with a bit more tact. Many of us are very interested in seeing this unique project succeed. It would be a disappointment to see its reputation ruined by a loud mouthed brat.
Request all you want, it is your breath to waste. On the subject of tact, look in the mirror.
I resent the suggestion that I am somehow not among those who wish to see the project succeed.
Your final comment is nothing more than a personal insult, again demonstrating your own capacity for acting like a hypocrite after requesting tact and pretending to be so concerned about the tone used in discussions with others.
If walking around on eggshells to avoid hurting anyone's precious little feelings is your modus operandi, feel free to operate as such, but when hostility is offered, I will return the favor and not restrain myself for the sake of some people's delicate sensibilities. This is about like punching someone in the face and then immediately asking them to reject violence.
Originally by: Lyris Nairn Look at all that yelling.
Who was yelling?
I wasn't aware text had a volume.
Speaking only for myself, I prefer using strong words rather than a raised voice.
Ishukone Prosperity Exchange "Cooperation is the greater path than conflict." Syyl'ara Infrastructure Security Coordinator |
Pablos Locos
Caldari Discount Slave Emporium
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Posted - 2011.01.04 00:32:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Syyl'ara
I resent the suggestion that I am somehow not among those who wish to see the project succeed.
If you did wish to see it succeed, you wouldn't derail Mr. Yagari's thread with endless unproductive TL;DR walls of quotes. |
Syyl'ara
Gallente Intaki Prosperity Initiative
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Posted - 2011.01.04 02:51:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Syyl''ara on 04/01/2011 02:57:42
Originally by: Pablos Locos
Originally by: Syyl'ara
I resent the suggestion that I am somehow not among those who wish to see the project succeed.
If you did wish to see it succeed, you wouldn't derail Mr. Yagari's thread with endless unproductive TL;DR walls of quotes.
False Dichotomy is false.
What is productive or unproductive is a subjective matter.
"TL;DR walls of quotes" is a typical rhetorical device for those too uneducated to appreciate intellectualism. My advice is stay out of discussions that you aren't properly equipped for in the future. |
Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.04 03:32:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Codo Yagari on 04/01/2011 03:37:09
Fellow New Edians.
The matter of slavery is indeed one of the most sensitive and disruptive of the harmony between the folks of New Eden.
I can assure those that are in doubt that the NRDS Coalition has absolutely no interest in promoting slavery, in fact, my own corporation, the founder of the NRDS Coalition, has as a membership directive saying that slavery must not be supported.
Friends, this is damage control. If you have a bag of apples, and a few are rotten, will you throw the whole bag away? No, because if you did, you would find yourself quickly to be starving. In the same way we will not abandon other NRDS organizations just because their ideologies are not perfect, then we would quickly find ourselves to be without friends.
Piracy and NBSI is, as far as I am concerned, the greatest threat to the sanctity of New Eden. As mentioned before, being part of a coalition does not mean that one has to share the exact same ideology. However, this coalition is opposed to piracy and NBSI, and this is its very foundation and basic idea. It means we are not willing to just sit by while those that are innocent get shot down. Personally I consider space to be free, and if I happen to fly in Amarr controlled space, and even fight alongside NRDS forces in the region, it does not mean that I am pro-slavery.
This is where the line of this coalition has been drawn, on the one side you have NRDS and a desire for order, and on the other you have NBSI and disregard for innocent life. There are certainly other major issues and unfairities that needs to be dealt with, but we have to start with the biggest ones. ___________________
Yulai Guard Forum |
Pablos Locos
Caldari Discount Slave Emporium
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Posted - 2011.01.04 03:56:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Pablos Locos on 04/01/2011 03:58:49
Originally by: Syyl'ara
"TL;DR walls of quotes" is a typical rhetorical device for those too uneducated to appreciate intellectualism. My advice is stay out of discussions that you aren't properly equipped for in the future.
Actually, excessive walls of quotes are often a sign of obsessive compulsive disorder. Feeling the need to argue and debate every point no matter how irrelevant. I understand if you are sick, so I won't hold it against you.
But insulting ones intelligence is usually either a projection of insecurity with ones own mental state or a weak attempt at trolling usually followed up with a rude comment about genitalia. If the genitalia comment doesn't appear next, then again I understand it is merely part of your disorder and I won't hold it against you. |
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Syyl'ara
Gallente Intaki Prosperity Initiative
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Posted - 2011.01.04 04:26:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Pablos Locos Actually, excessive walls of quotes are often a sign of obsessive compulsive disorder. Feeling the need to argue and debate every point no matter how irrelevant. I understand if you are sick, so I won't hold it against you.
But being passive-aggressive on the other hand, is perfectly healthy?
Also, your statement is utter rubbish and what a person actually informed in these subjects would call "pop culture psychology".
Quote: But insulting ones intelligence is usually either a projection of insecurity with ones own mental state or a weak attempt at trolling usually followed up with a rude comment about genitalia. If the genitalia comment doesn't appear next, then again I understand it is merely part of your disorder and I won't hold it against you.
Let me get this straight, if I had done as you describe, I'd be trolling, but since I haven't, it is supposedly further evidence of my "disorder"?
Talk about damned if you do, damned if you don't. But please, do continue embarrassing yourself here, I have little else to do at the moment and am happy to keep helping. |
Pablos Locos
Caldari Discount Slave Emporium
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Posted - 2011.01.04 05:13:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Pablos Locos on 04/01/2011 05:20:21 Anxiety has many emotional components.
Speaking out of concern for others welfare shouldn't be embarrassing. Nor should it be so to seek help.
Having one disorder may put you at risk for others, especially with the stress of being a pod pilot. Don't be ashamed. It's ok to reach out. Help can show itself in odd ways. |
Syyl'ara
Gallente Intaki Prosperity Initiative
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Posted - 2011.01.04 05:38:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Syyl''ara on 04/01/2011 05:43:25
Originally by: Pablos Locos Anxiety has many emotional components.
Okay, but for the purposes of categorizing mental disorders, it has been clearly demonstrated you have no idea what you're talking about and basically making things up on the spot as fodder for insults.
Quote: Speaking out of concern for others welfare shouldn't be embarrassing. Nor should it be so to seek help.
Having one disorder may put you at risk for others, especially with the stress of being a pod pilot. Don't be ashamed. It's ok to reach out. Help can show itself in odd ways.
Well, this got boring fast...
Next to /Godwin, doing the "seek help" routine is probably the most over-used meme on GalNet. |
Pablos Locos
Caldari Discount Slave Emporium
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Posted - 2011.01.04 05:43:00 -
[84]
Syyl'ara, I will pray for you. |
SpotlessBlade
Night Wolves Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.04 09:01:00 -
[85]
first off, i know its been mentioned many times in here already, but maybe this way the OP will answer. So a Matari NRDS corp and an Amarr NRDS corp join your little coalition. Can they shoot each other or will only Amarr entities be allowed to join? Or hadn't you though of that? And Syll'arala'a or whatever your name is, has anyone ever told you that you're a pompous little turd? Oh wait, go ahead and critique my "logical fallacies" as if anyone gives a crap. All those years of getting beat up at your local Amarr Imperial High School have really taken their toll haven't they?
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Syyl'ara
Gallente Intaki Prosperity Initiative
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Posted - 2011.01.04 09:41:00 -
[86]
Originally by: SpotlessBlade And Syll'arala'a or whatever your name is
I'm not sure how pretending that a 7-letter name is too hard for you to spell is supposed to make me the one that looks bad between the two of us.
Quote: has anyone ever told you that you're a pompous little turd?
I don't generally keep track of which particular emotional outbursts people use when they have nothing substantive to add, so I can't answer that definitively.
Quote: Oh wait, go ahead and critique my "logical fallacies" as if anyone gives a crap.
As I've mentioned at several points, I'm amusing myself, I could care less whether anyone gives a crap or not. However, since you asked, it is just pure Ad Hominem.
Quote: All those years of getting beat up at your local Amarr Imperial High School have really taken their toll haven't they?
I've never before been tempted to put a fail-quote in my bio until today, this is priceless, thank you for this precious gem, I will cherish it.
Ishukone Prosperity Exchange "Cooperation is the greater path than conflict." Syyl'ara Infrastructure Security Coordinator |
Horizonist
Yulai Guard 2nd Fleet Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.04 13:44:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Horizonist on 04/01/2011 13:47:09 Edited by: Horizonist on 04/01/2011 13:45:20
Originally by: Kazzzi For the record, I do get quite upset when Imperial Amarrian interests are hidden under the guise of PR friendly terms like NRDS. Sometimes I even get upset enough to kill people. I suppose that makes me a pirate to report in your intel channel you share with several pro-Amarrian groups and even a pro-Khanid Kingdom one.
The NCA, which was founded by a non-loyalist corporation that actively opposes slavery, has nothing to do with one-sided faction interests. Our thrust is to spread and encourage the NRDS RoE, and to oppose piracy and like malice, since we believe this is for the greater good of everyone who plays Eve.
The members of the NCA may indeed have views that others in the Coalition disagree with, but this does not mean that the Coalition at large either supports or works for any such views. The Yulai Guard is staunchly opposed to slavery, and we will continue to be so.
Horizonist
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Horizonist
Yulai Guard 2nd Fleet Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.04 13:46:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Horizonist on 04/01/2011 13:46:52 double post! Sorry
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2011.01.04 14:03:00 -
[89]
I must admit I am quite happy to hear Codo Yagari foreswearing the practise and support of slavery in the name of the NRDS Coalition. I think thats quite a progressive breakthrough and positive distance from his old connections with CVA-dominated Providence. Well done!
That said I do have some questions about the NRDS Coalition myself on which I would appreciate clear answers:
1. Is the NRDS Coalition itself as an organization prepared to condemn the practise of slavery and make that a condition of membership to ensure that slavers may not hide behind the protection of non-slavers involved in your project? 2. Can we please have a clear definition to the term "Universal NRDS"?
3. Will the NRDS Coalition (or any of its member corps/alliances) ever attempt to force the setting of 3rd Party standings in external entities under threat of violence or collective negative standings? (for example, unless x sets y ("pirate corp") -10 then x also will be set -10).
4. If an external entity considered a member entity of the NRDS Coalition -10 (for political/economic/ideological) reasons would the rest of the NRDS Coalition come to the defense of its member entity against the military actions of the external group?
5. As above, what would happen if an external entity registered a concord war declaration against an NRDS Coalition entity? Would the external entity suffer negative standings and potential aggression from the rest?
I may have some other follow-up questions when these are answered but please do consider these genuine attempts to understand the organization you are building here and consider the answers as a chance to convey understanding of your plans and designs.
NRDS is a rule of engagement first and foremost, and the idea of it as a cross factional ideology is radical to say the least, but I think we all have a duty to our intellect and open-minds to examine the concept before rejecting it.
All the best.
Join the Revolution!
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Kazzzi
Amarr Heathen Legion Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.01.04 21:12:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Codo Yagari
I can assure those that are in doubt that the NRDS Coalition has absolutely no interest in promoting slavery, in fact, my own corporation, the founder of the NRDS Coalition, has as a membership directive saying that slavery must not be supported.
This is indeed good to hear and a step in the right direction. |
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Syn Callibri
Minmatar 21st Eridani Lighthorse Broken Chains Alliance
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Posted - 2011.01.04 21:46:00 -
[91]
/moar popcorn
[21EL] Commander Tac-Ops / [21EL] I.S.C. |
Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.06 02:42:00 -
[92]
Originally by: SpotlessBlade So a Matari NRDS corp and an Amarr NRDS corp join your little coalition. Can they shoot each other or will only Amarr entities be allowed to join? Or hadn't you though of that?
There is a reason that we do not allow militia warfare corps and alliances into the NRDS Coalition. Non-militia NRDS Amarrian and Minmatar corps are of course very welcome to join. If there would be an internal conflict it would be dealt with on a case-to-case basis.
Originally by: Jade Constantine Is the NRDS Coalition itself as an organization prepared to condemn the practise of slavery and make that a condition of membership to ensure that slavers may not hide behind the protection of non-slavers involved in your project?
The main focus of the NRDS Coalition is at this stage to fight the biggest issue of this galaxy: Piracy and NBSI. Any applicants for membership are reviewed on a case-to-case basis, trying to make sure that they are in line with civilized ideals and common sense in general.
Originally by: Jade Constantine Can we please have a clear definition to the term "Universal NRDS"?
The term universal NRDS is used because sometimes groups declare themselves NRDS, but when you ask them further, they practise NBSI in for example wormhole space. With the term Universal NRDS it is referred to practising NRDS everywhere, including null sec and wormhole space, everywhere.
Originally by: Jade Constantine Will the NRDS Coalition (or any of its member corps/alliances) ever attempt to force the setting of 3rd Party standings in external entities under threat of violence or collective negative standings? (for example, unless x sets y ("pirate corp") -10 then x also will be set -10).
The NRDS Coalition does not at this stage have a common standings list. This is quite understandable since some of the members live in quite different regions and have different history etc. However, as I have mentioned before, it is quite surprising to see the similarity of KOS lists of proper NRDS groups. It again points to the ideological aspect behind NRDS, that it is not merely a rule of engagement, but a philosophy of conduct and behaviour. In any case, the most important thing is not to have the exact same standings, but to share a sense of responsibility and decency.
Originally by: Jade Constantine If an external entity considered a member entity of the NRDS Coalition -10 (for political/economic/ideological) reasons would the rest of the NRDS Coalition come to the defense of its member entity against the military actions of the external group?
There is no leadership in the NRDS Coalition that would decide such an act. The members of the coalition work together for common good, and it is up to each and every member of the coalition to do as they wish, as long as they respect the membership rules. Obviously, one of the very reasons for the creation of the NRDS Coalition is to promote teamwork and cooperation between the members.
Originally by: Jade Constantine As above, what would happen if an external entity registered a concord war declaration against an NRDS Coalition entity? Would the external entity suffer negative standings and potential aggression from the rest?
Please see the answer to the previous question. |
Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.06 02:46:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Jade Constantine NRDS is a rule of engagement first and foremost, and the idea of it as a cross factional ideology is radical to say the least, but I think we all have a duty to our intellect and open-minds to examine the concept before rejecting it.
Well, I think we can all agree that there are 2 main rules of engagement applied in the universe of New Eden; NRDS and NBSI. You could argue that these both are merely rules of engagement, and have nothing to do with ideology, but when you look at it closer, NRDS means you have a philosophy of not engaging others per default. This says alot, compared to NBSI where you DO engage others per default. So NRDS has a peaceful default stance, while NBSI has an agressive default stance. It becomes just not a rule of engagement, but instead a social philosphy. It is the same as being friendly per default, and being hostile per default. NRDS groups are friendly, while NBSI groups are hostile. Good vs evil? Quite possibly.
Sometimes you may find groups that call themselves NRDS but befriend other major NBSI groups, or who have specific ideologies that make them hard to work with, but on a general note, I do believe the above conclusion is valid. ___________________
Yulai Guard Forum |
Kazzzi
Amarr Heathen Legion Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.01.06 04:03:00 -
[94]
On 12.10 of last year in the Saidusairos system, Amarr Navy Admiral Aerkon Verriam ordered Imperial forces to attack all non-Amarrian pilots.
So in NRDS/NBSI terms, how does the NRDS coalition feel about this?
How about the unprovoked assault at Vak Atioth?
Is this enough for you to set the Amarr Empire, or even just their navy, red? |
Calfis
Amarr F.R.E.E. Explorer The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.01.06 20:59:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Codo Yagari Edited by: Codo Yagari on 04/01/2011 03:39:15
Piracy and NBSI is, as far as I am concerned, the greatest threat to the sanctity of New Eden.
this coalition is opposed to piracy and NBSI, and this is its very foundation and basic idea. It means we are not willing to just sit by while those that are innocent get shot down. Personally I consider space to be free, and if I happen to fly in Amarr controlled space, and even fight alongside NRDS forces in the region, it does not mean that I am pro-slavery.
This is where the line of this coalition has been drawn, on the one side you have NRDS and a desire for order, and on the other you have NBSI
Did you just declared war on every major sov holding power in null sec?
All space is not free, some space is beholden to a sovereign. Being sovereign over said space confers the right to dictate policy in that space. You cannot tell a sovereign power that it must practice X policy in its space or its a pirate and evil etc. By doing so you are encroaching upon their sovereignty.
There are ways for neutral pilots not to get shot in a sovereign's space, become blue by renting or being an ally of the sovereign. Otherwise they should simply avoid sovereign space. By knowingly flying through a sovereign's space without blue standings/permission any neutral pilot is knowing violating sovereignty. The sov holders have every right to protect their domain through whatever means they deem necessary as is their right by definition of being sovereign.
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Silas Vitalia
Khanid Provincial Vanguard Black Inquisition
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Posted - 2011.01.06 21:08:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Calfis
Did you just declared war on every major sov holding power in null sec?
All space is not free, some space is beholden to a sovereign. Being sovereign over said space confers the right to dictate policy in that space. You cannot tell a sovereign power that it must practice X policy in its space or its a pirate and evil etc. By doing so you are encroaching upon their sovereignty.
There are ways for neutral pilots not to get shot in a sovereign's space, become blue by renting or being an ally of the sovereign. Otherwise they should simply avoid sovereign space. By knowingly flying through a sovereign's space without blue standings/permission any neutral pilot is knowing violating sovereignty. The sov holders have every right to protect their domain through whatever means they deem necessary as is their right by definition of being sovereign.
A refreshing point of view. Or as I like to call it "Might Makes Right." Silas Vitalia CEO Khanid Provincial Vanguard Open for Recruitment!
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Calfis
Amarr F.R.E.E. Explorer The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.01.06 21:52:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Silas Vitalia
A refreshing point of view. Or as I like to call it "Might Makes Right."
Or the Hobbesian point of view.
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Syyl'ara
Gallente Intaki Prosperity Initiative
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Posted - 2011.01.07 00:41:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Calfis Did you just declare war on every major sov holding power in null sec?
Have war declarations been filed with CONCORD?
To say that stating one's opposition to a given philosophy is the same as declaring war upon them is hyperbole at its finest. Not every disagreement needs to be settled with violent force of arms.
As far as the question of setting the Amarr Empire or its Navy red, I think it was just clarified that the coalition does not operate a common standings list ("enclosurism" as some people refer to it as). Furthermore, I had understood the terms NRDS and NBSI to refer to diplomatic orientations between two capsuleer entities, not between capsuleer and non-capsuleer. Note I am not attempting to speak on anyone's behalf in this regard, just offering my view. |
Kazzzi
Amarr Heathen Legion Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.01.07 01:34:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Kazzzi on 07/01/2011 01:37:15 No the NRDS Coalition itself does not have enforced standings, but it does have quite a bit of philosophy and code of ethics, so I'd still like to hear how Codo and the NRDS Coalition officially feels about what I asked. After all, Admiral Verriam and even Jamyl Sarum are indeed capsuleers.
This is not a loaded question. Codo has quelled my worst worries and I am glad to see him as a progressive Amarrian. I ask out of honest interest. I'm sure we could find examples of NBSI from all 4 of the major Concord protected powers. It's only that I had some Amarrian examples readily available.
Something else I was wondering, do you discourage Coalition members from maintaining standings enclosurism with their other allies in their own areas of operation? I'm wondering because you don't seem to want to interfere with the inner workings of member groups, but at the same time you do not enforce any enclosurism yourself. Which I view as a good thing |
Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.07 02:26:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Calfis All space is not free, some space is beholden to a sovereign. Being sovereign over said space confers the right to dictate policy in that space. You cannot tell a sovereign power that it must practice X policy in its space or its a pirate and evil etc. By doing so you are encroaching upon their sovereignty.
There are ways for neutral pilots not to get shot in a sovereign's space, become blue by renting or being an ally of the sovereign. Otherwise they should simply avoid sovereign space. By knowingly flying through a sovereign's space without blue standings/permission any neutral pilot is knowing violating sovereignty. The sov holders have every right to protect their domain through whatever means they deem necessary as is their right by definition of being sovereign.
Originally by: Silas Vitalia A refreshing point of view. Or as I like to call it "Might Makes Right."
Or "The Rule of Tyrrany". Might does not make right. Sometimes, the weak are right.
As long as people behave in a respectful and responsible fashion, all space is free. However, claiming space for oneself and not allowing anyone else in, is nothing but a flea on a dog, claiming to own the dog for his own benefit, allowing no other fleas to land.
Having sovereignty of space is a gift of responsibility to be used to maintain and keep the space ordersome and safe, against pirates etc. Its not something for the owners to selfish exploit as they see fit.
The NRDS Providence had (still has?) more dockable playerbuilt stations than any other null sec region. Why? Because NRDS is open, it promotes trade and social interaction. It is simply more friendly, and even nice.
Kazzzi, regarding the matter with the Amarr Navy; as you said yourself, there have probably been events when all the major empires were guilty of NBSI-ish acts. In fact, we have probably all made mistakes once or twice. What we have to look at is if the organizations that we set red or not, do they generally do more good than bad? I hope this answers your question. ___________________
Yulai Guard Forum |
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Calfis
Amarr F.R.E.E. Explorer The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.01.07 04:28:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Calfis on 07/01/2011 04:29:45
Originally by: Codo Yagari
Originally by: Calfis All space is not free, some space is beholden to a sovereign. Being sovereign over said space confers the right to dictate policy in that space. You cannot tell a sovereign power that it must practice X policy in its space or its a pirate and evil etc. By doing so you are encroaching upon their sovereignty.
There are ways for neutral pilots not to get shot in a sovereign's space, become blue by renting or being an ally of the sovereign. Otherwise they should simply avoid sovereign space. By knowingly flying through a sovereign's space without blue standings/permission any neutral pilot is knowing violating sovereignty. The sov holders have every right to protect their domain through whatever means they deem necessary as is their right by definition of being sovereign.
Originally by: Silas Vitalia A refreshing point of view. Or as I like to call it "Might Makes Right."
Or "The Rule of Tyrrany". Might does not make right. Sometimes, the weak are right.
As long as people behave in a respectful and responsible fashion, all space is free. However, claiming space for oneself and not allowing anyone else in, is nothing but a flea on a dog, claiming to own the dog for his own benefit, allowing no other fleas to land.
Having sovereignty of space is a gift of responsibility to be used to maintain and keep the space ordersome and safe, against pirates etc. Its not something for the owners to selfish exploit as they see fit.
The NRDS Providence had (still has?) more dockable playerbuilt stations than any other null sec region. Why? Because NRDS is open, it promotes trade and social interaction. It is simply more friendly, and even nice.
Kazzzi, regarding the matter with the Amarr Navy; as you said yourself, there have probably been events when all the major empires were guilty of NBSI-ish acts. In fact, we have probably all made mistakes once or twice. What we have to look at is if the organizations that we set red or not, do they generally do more good than bad? I hope this answers your question.
In a perfect universe one could let neutrals in without too much worry about them causing trouble but in null sec often times neutrals are employed to subvert the authority of and attack the sovereign power in the region.
Case in point just now. An assortment of different neutral entities all working in concert to subvert the Initiative's claim to HED-GP, a vital high sec access point for the new southern coalition.
Luckily the appearance of neutrals in our space was tracked through our intelligence channels and a response fleet was formed quickly when it became apparent that the neutrals were coordinating in an organized way to challenge our claim to HED-GP. The neutrals all from seemingly different alliances/corporations with no standing towards us appeared en mass as SBUs placed by other neutrals earlier came online and made our infrastructure vulnerable to attack.
The neutrals fought the Initiative and allied fleet as a group, died as a group, and retreated as a group when our supercarrier contingent warped into the fight. It is as if they were all under one unified command structure. You would understand why any null sec sov holder would be wary of neutrals given incidents like these.
P.S. Silas, I saw you in local
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Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.07 11:10:00 -
[102]
To treat all neutrals as hostiles,as if they were part of one big organization of "neuts", seems a bit short-minded to me. Apparently, any neutrals that are acting in a hostile fashion are no longer neutrals, and thus a valid target.
However, to completely dismiss anyone you do not know as an enemy, and kill him with fatal force upon sight, purely on the grounds of paranoia, well, this is the stuff that will grant you many enemies indeed.
If you DO have an interest in the sanity of New Eden, you could just try a little harder. Isn't it true that your organization will engage neutrals everywhere? Even if you see them in a remote area, even if they are in small numbers and pose no direct serious threat, will you not kill them anyway, by principle? Some might even argue that you kill them for mere pleasure. ___________________
Yulai Guard Forum |
Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
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Posted - 2011.01.07 13:08:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Kazzzi Edited by: Kazzzi on 07/01/2011 01:39:12 No the NRDS Coalition itself does not have enforced standings, but it does have quite a bit of philosophy and code of ethics, so I'd still like to hear how Codo and the NRDS Coalition officially feels about what I asked. After all, Admiral Verriam and even Jamyl Sarum are indeed capsuleers. I'm not asking if the coalition would set them red but if those are good enough reasons to set them red under NRDS philosophy.
This is not a loaded question. Codo has quelled my worst worries and I am glad to see him as a progressive Amarrian. I ask out of honest interest. I'm sure we could find examples of NBSI from all 4 of the major Concord protected powers. It's only that I had some Amarrian examples readily available.
Something else I was wondering, do you discourage Coalition members from maintaining standings enclosurism with their other allies in their own areas of operation? I'm wondering because you don't seem to want to interfere with the inner workings of member groups, but at the same time you do not enforce any enclosurism yourself. Which I view as a good thing
Even if I despise the acts of admiral Verriam this day, you should not confuse an act of piracy with an act of war. To my knowledge, the Empire and the Federation are at war.
Concerning the link between the Empress and the days of Darkness / Vak'Atioth, I have to admit that I fail to see it. |
Calfis
Amarr F.R.E.E. Explorer The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.01.07 16:56:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Codo Yagari To treat all neutrals as hostiles,as if they were part of one big organization of "neuts", seems a bit short-minded to me. Apparently, any neutrals that are acting in a hostile fashion are no longer neutrals, and thus a valid target.
However, to completely dismiss anyone you do not know as an enemy, and kill him with fatal force upon sight, purely on the grounds of paranoia, well, this is the stuff that will grant you many enemies indeed.
If you DO have an interest in the sanity of New Eden, you could just try a little harder. Isn't it true that your organization will engage neutrals everywhere? Even if you see them in a remote area, even if they are in small numbers and pose no direct serious threat, will you not kill them anyway, by principle? Some might even argue that you kill them for mere pleasure.
It is easy to criticize from a distance when you do not face the security dilemma faced by most null sec power blocs. All of our rivals operate on an NBSI policy so for an alliance that holds territory equal in size to say the Amarr Empire or Gallente Federation it would be unrealistic to switch to an NRDS policy and expose our territory to greater risks and uncertainties. An opening our enemies will be sure to exploit given the cut throat nature of sovereignty warfare.
Hence our policy cannot change because the policy of our rivals will not change and in order for us to maintain equilibrium our posture must at the very least match the posture of our enemies. Because they do X we must react with Y, if they produce X number of super capitals then we must produce Y number of super capitals, if they operate NBSI then we cannot even consider NRDS.
And yes, The Initiative engages neutrals wherever we find them because we operate an NBSI policy. Often times we will roam into space occupied by our rivals and often times these areas will be filled with neutrals that provide material support for our rivals, these neutrals, industrialists and renters who pay tribute to our enemies should be and are treated as if they are hostile.
Though I would be lying if I claimed our roams are limited to neutrals who provide material support to our foes. We do roam into low sec and space controlled by the Angel Cartel and we do kill neutrals there who may not have any direct links nor provide any material support to our foes. There are several reasons for this.
1. Many of the neutrals we have encountered will kill us, given the opportunity, as proven time and time again when we send lone "bait" ships into a system full of neutrals. Many times the neutrals we kill actually come to us before we give them death in a fire.
2. Roams into these border regions expands our influence. To maintain our sphere of influence we must project power into our border areas and remind the locals of our presence. Locals such as renters are often static, they want to stay in their system no matter who is in charge. Constant harassment would be a prelude to a change in landlord status if the current landlord is unable to deter such incursions. An example would be the AAA Citizens we turned into Initiative Associates.
3. Our combat pilots need constant targets to stay sharp and interested. The greatest concern of any null sec alliance is the maintenance of an engaged and effective military force in as large a number as possible. Many of our pilots engage in small gang pvp against neutral targets as a much needed break from the spatial anomaly filled call-to-arms they are required to participate in, this gives them a morale boost while also keeping them practiced in pvp.
Whether or not our pilots feel pleasure in the kill is a non-issue. We need these pilots to defend our claims.
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Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
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Posted - 2011.01.07 18:46:00 -
[105]
These arguments get old. CVA was fully NRDS and it worked perfectly well. The cons of the system were greatly compensated by the assets it brought. You may expend your influence and sphere of might with fear as a tool, but you may also expend it with protection, and locals generally tend to get extremly loyal towards it. |
Michael Bross
Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.01.07 18:56:00 -
[106]
Really? Funny I must have missed that loyalty shown to CVA. What I saw was one loss at D-G and every CVA ally leaving them to die alone.
Regardless. What truely astonishes me here is 'supposed' Matari-loyalists allying themselves with known slavers.
Thankfully these Ammatar have now exposed themselves fully and with hope, no more Matari will be tricked into their ways.
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Calfis
Amarr F.R.E.E. Explorer The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.01.07 19:01:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Lyn Farel These arguments get old. CVA was fully NRDS and it worked perfectly well. The cons of the system were greatly compensated by the assets it brought. You may expend your influence and sphere of might with fear as a tool, but you may also expend it with protection, and locals generally tend to get extremly loyal towards it.
Because CVA was such a shining example of how well NRDS holds up when a serious null sec power (the same power we are fighting atm, AAA) came calling?
I would argue that the main reason CVA Providence lasted so long is because many of the nearby NBSI powers liked having a farming ground. (see number 3 in my previous post)
NBSI is the predominant policy for sov holding powers for one reason. It simply works better than NRDS. It makes it so any potential enemy has to chew through a "blue buffer" to get to your home systems.
As for loyalty, we all saw the leaked logs and public infighting among the providence holders pointing figures as to whose fault it is that such a great calamity was about to befall them. Many of them tried to make deals or made deals and/or left, I believe one even switched sides. Why? Because when it comes down to it they care more about their own profitability than holding your space for you. The rental system under NBSI works far better, they pay you the isk and you build the war fleets.
Why in the hell would we mimic the policy of an alliance who lost all their space to the very same enemy we are fighting now?
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Syyl'ara
Gallente Intaki Prosperity Initiative
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Posted - 2011.01.07 19:07:00 -
[108]
Edited by: Syyl''ara on 07/01/2011 19:11:13
Originally by: Calfis 1. Many of the neutrals we have encountered will kill us, given the opportunity, as proven time and time again when we send lone "bait" ships into a system full of neutrals. Many times the neutrals we kill actually come to us before we give them death in a fire.
Neutrals who would kill you given the opportunity aren't neutral, this sounds more like a failure on your part to do the work of maintaining a standings regime which reflects the reality of your situation. Failing to identify those hostile to doesn't justify indiscriminately firing on those who aren't.
Quote: 2. Roams into these border regions expands our influence. To maintain our sphere of influence we must project power into our border areas and remind the locals of our presence. Locals such as renters are often static, they want to stay in their system no matter who is in charge. Constant harassment would be a prelude to a change in landlord status if the current landlord is unable to deter such incursions. An example would be the AAA Citizens we turned into Initiative Associates.
The issues you address here are the same whether you operate NRDS or NBSI, this point is a non-sequitur.
Actually, an NRDS entity projecting power into an area that is typically NBSI could engender respect and cooperation of non-aligned locals. Many of them could be a good source of intelligence on enemy movements if they realize that cooperation will enable them to operate without constant harassment.
Quote: 3. Our combat pilots need constant targets to stay sharp and interested. The greatest concern of any null sec alliance is the maintenance of an engaged and effective military force in as large a number as possible. Many of our pilots engage in small gang pvp against neutral targets as a much needed break from the spatial anomaly filled call-to-arms they are required to participate in, this gives them a morale boost while also keeping them practiced in pvp.
Arrange wargames with allied powers (or even internally), engage entities that are actually hostile to you, penetrate enemy defenses, conduct operations in pirate infested regions, etc. You have a wide array of options to choose from to maintain sharp skills. The experience gained from preying on some industrial who happens by pales in comparison to the dozens of other activities one could engage in.
Really, all of these excuses just paint the picture of a general unwillingness to do the hard work of forward-thinking diplomacy and intelligence-gathering, preferring instead a philosophy of "shoot first and...why bother with questions, we're infallible!"
Quote: NBSI is the predominant policy for sov holding powers for one reason. It simply works better than NRDS. It makes it so any potential enemy has to chew through a "blue buffer" to get to your home systems.
The installation of puppets and meatshields as a buffer is again a seperate issue from operating NRDS vs. NBSI. |
Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
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Posted - 2011.01.07 19:38:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Lyn Farel on 07/01/2011 19:40:24 Edited by: Lyn Farel on 07/01/2011 19:38:56
Originally by: Calfis
Originally by: Lyn Farel These arguments get old. CVA was fully NRDS and it worked perfectly well. The cons of the system were greatly compensated by the assets it brought. You may expend your influence and sphere of might with fear as a tool, but you may also expend it with protection, and locals generally tend to get extremly loyal towards it.
Because CVA was such a shining example of how well NRDS holds up when a serious null sec power (the same power we are fighting atm, AAA) came calling?
I would argue that the main reason CVA Providence lasted so long is because many of the nearby NBSI powers liked having a farming ground. (see number 3 in my previous post)
NBSI is the predominant policy for sov holding powers for one reason. It simply works better than NRDS. It makes it so any potential enemy has to chew through a "blue buffer" to get to your home systems.
As for loyalty, we all saw the leaked logs and public infighting among the providence holders pointing figures as to whose fault it is that such a great calamity was about to befall them. Many of them tried to make deals or made deals and/or left, I believe one even switched sides. Why? Because when it comes down to it they care more about their own profitability than holding your space for you. The rental system under NBSI works far better, they pay you the isk and you build the war fleets.
Why in the hell would we mimic the policy of an alliance who lost all their space to the very same enemy we are fighting now?
You are quite short minded, but I will not hold it against you as your concord records shows you got in the capsuleer milieu in 2009.
CVA standed against several big nullsec powers, those ones sometimes alone, sometimes not alone, or sometimes they were divided between several fronts. They fought the old BoB alliance (which was fighting on several fronts because it was a global war), and BoB was definitly invading their space and capturing territory. I know it because I was fighting with them, and we had a very hard time. There was also the case of Triumvirate, but they were not really here to conquer the space, even if they all were here to fight against The CVA. They got retaliated, with the very help of all the loyalists around. And many more similar cases.
Of course, after that with the exponential increasing power of nullsec political blocks, as you say, and it was the case with -A-, CVA was not attacked because -A- enjoyed having what you call... a "farming ground" (more like a free battlezone in my opinion).
Add to that the nullsec claiming mechanisms issued by... CONCORD... suddenly changed in favor of the attackers. What was the pride of CVA - their citadel network and well defended space - was no more.
But this alliance is still one of the oldest one in the nullsec and kept its space for more than 5 years. Eventually every big nullsec power bloc lose its space, then regain it soemwhere else, or die. That is what CVA is doing. I do not see the different in terms of efficiency.
Anyway, it was just an exemple.
No I definitly think as some others have stated above that NBSI is just the politics of the paranoid and the lazy. It does not work better (just has cons and pros, like NRDS), but is definitly easier. |
SpotlessBlade
Night Wolves Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.10 02:37:00 -
[110]
/me believes that Codo and Yulai have ingested too much ...something... It seems like they believe the only people who shoot each other are either NBSI, Faction War, or pirates. you responded to my earlier question by saying that faction warfare would not be granted admission to the "coalition". What about all of the entities that are not faction war but are on opposing sides of political conflicts. They must all be terrorists or pirates right?
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Kazzzi
Amarr Heathen Legion Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.01.10 05:33:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Lyn Farel
Even if I despise the acts of admiral Verriam this day, you should not confuse an act of piracy with an act of war. To my knowledge, the Empire and the Federation are at war.
Concerning the link between the Empress and the days of Darkness / Vak'Atioth, I have to admit that I fail to see it.
The Admiral ordered Imperial forces to attack all non-Amarrians, not just the Federation. Regardless, if CONCORD sanctioned war is declared, does that automatically always remove any NBSI connotations?
I brought up Jamyl's name not because of any involvent with Vak Atioth, but because someone said the Amarr Empire is not a capsuleer entity, yet the Empress is indeed a capsuleer. |
Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.10 09:58:00 -
[112]
Originally by: SpotlessBlade You responded to my earlier question by saying that faction warfare would not be granted admission to the "coalition". What about all of the entities that are not faction war but are on opposing sides of political conflicts. They must all be terrorists or pirates right?
No. But in order for the coalition to function we need to maintain a decent relationship between its members. Any application for membership will be reviewed on a case-to-case basis. ___________________
Yulai Guard Forum |
Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.10 10:04:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Kazzzi Regardless, if CONCORD sanctioned war is declared, does that automatically always remove any NBSI connotations?
If a high sec pirate group declares a CONCORD sanctioned war on a peaceful industrial corp, is that right? Ask yourself this question, because I do believe the NRDS Coalition is very much a matter of conscience and morality. ___________________
Yulai Guard Forum |
Kazzzi
Amarr Heathen Legion Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.01.10 20:06:00 -
[114]
Is faction war the only way a group can preemptively strike political enemies without suffering the NBSI stigma? |
Calfis
Amarr F.R.E.E. Explorer The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.01.10 21:45:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Lyn Farel Edited by: Lyn Farel on 07/01/2011 19:40:24 Edited by: Lyn Farel on 07/01/2011 19:38:56
Originally by: Calfis
Originally by: Lyn Farel
You are quite short minded, but I will not hold it against you as your concord records shows you got in the capsuleer milieu in 2009.
CVA standed against several big nullsec powers, those ones sometimes alone, sometimes not alone, or sometimes they were divided between several fronts. They fought the old BoB alliance (which was fighting on several fronts because it was a global war), and BoB was definitly invading their space and capturing territory. I know it because I was fighting with them, and we had a very hard time. There was also the case of Triumvirate, but they were not really here to conquer the space, even if they all were here to fight against The CVA. They got retaliated, with the very help of all the loyalists around. And many more similar cases.
Of course, after that with the exponential increasing power of nullsec political blocks, as you say, and it was the case with -A-, CVA was not attacked because -A- enjoyed having what you call... a "farming ground" (more like a free battlezone in my opinion).
Add to that the nullsec claiming mechanisms issued by... CONCORD... suddenly changed in favor of the attackers. What was the pride of CVA - their citadel network and well defended space - was no more.
But this alliance is still one of the oldest one in the nullsec and kept its space for more than 5 years. Eventually every big nullsec power bloc lose its space, then regain it soemwhere else, or die. That is what CVA is doing. I do not see the different in terms of efficiency.
Anyway, it was just an exemple.
No I definitly think as some others have stated above that NBSI is just the politics of the paranoid and the lazy. It does not work better (just has cons and pros, like NRDS), but is definitly easier.
It is as you say, I have only been a capsuleer for a year but I did study political science at the Imperial Academy and I was simply trying to address the issue in terms of classic political theory. Hence bringing up the rights of the sovereign and the security dilemma as it applied to big null sec powers.
In terms of the CONCORD changes it would appear that NRDS was unable to adapt to the changes and NBSI was, seeing as many of the major powers before the changes are still here and operating NBSI. So perhaps that is already an indication that NBSI works better. I agree with you that operating NBSI is far easier than NRDS, perhaps thats a point that makes it better as well. Many military pilots for null sec powers have planetside duties to attend to, many have families. They simply cannot commit the amount of time that would be needed to effectively act as CONCORD in 0.0 so its not a matter of being lazy and to ask them to do so after having them in space for 10 hours fighting -A- would simply be asking too much. Not all of us can spend all the time in the world inside of a pod.
An NBSI policy just allows for more flexibility for our pilots.
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Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.11 01:36:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Kazzzi Is faction war the only way a group can preemptively strike political enemies without suffering the NBSI stigma?
Of course not.
For example, in the case of your own alliance, the Ushra'Khan, it's struggles might have been considered noble, if it wasn't for the fact that you proclaimed NBSI in certain areas, thus not only attempting to kill your enemies, but also others that happened to fly and live in their space.
You proclaimed NBSI yourself, it was never a stigma imposed. And I would like to think this is usually the case with other organizations as well.
Also, Calfis, I think a part of your post is missing? ___________________
Yulai Guard Forum |
Kazzzi
Amarr Heathen Legion Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.01.11 02:05:00 -
[117]
So you would consider our struggle noble if we set everyone we shot red just before shooting them?
NBSI works perfectly fine as long as you have active diplomats and a policy to set those truly innocent blue upon request.
NRDS means nothing when run by D-bags. |
SpotlessBlade
Night Wolves Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.11 02:25:00 -
[118]
/me looks at kazzi. D-Bags? really? lol
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Kazzzi
Amarr Heathen Legion Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.01.11 02:40:00 -
[119]
Edited by: Kazzzi on 11/01/2011 02:41:45
Originally by: SpotlessBlade /me looks at kazzi. D-Bags? really? lol
Sure, not necessarily directed at Codo here, I just mean D-bags in general.
I have infinitely more respect for NBSI groups with reasonable diplomats than NRDS groups run by ****s. It's a misconception that when somebody slaps on that NRDS label that they are automatically more ethical.
Edit: BTW spot, when are you coming back? |
SpotlessBlade
Night Wolves Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.11 03:51:00 -
[120]
Edited by: SpotlessBlade on 11/01/2011 03:52:04 TBH I do miss UK... kinda feels like home. But ive thrown my lot in here, and if anything ive always been loyal. So regardless of whether our fight vs. -a- coven rol et al. goes well or not they have my blasters, and probably my smoking smoldering wrecks as well. Ill contact you in game shortly since you keep leaving our pew pew chat lol
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Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.11 11:05:00 -
[121]
Edited by: Codo Yagari on 11/01/2011 11:11:30
Originally by: Kazzzi So you would consider our struggle noble if we set everyone we shot red just before shooting them?
I might consider you more noble if you didn't kill every man, his wife, children and dog because they happen to be flying in Amarr space. You're just too aggressive. NRDS or NBSI is not just a technical matter of RoE and setting standings, it's a mentality and philosophy.
Originally by: Kazzzi NBSI works perfectly fine as long as you have active diplomats and a policy to set those truly innocent blue upon request.
Sure, if you dont have any scruples about murdering the innocent, it would appear it works perfectly fine.
Originally by: Kazzzi It's a misconception that when somebody slaps on that NRDS label that they are automatically more ethical.
Actually, if you take a closer look, you'll see that this is wrong. When you practise NBSI you basically have declared war on every single unknown entity and any possible new capsuleer in New Eden. It's extremely hostile.
With NRDS, you send out a statement to unknown entities saying "We come in peace". The NRDS/NBSI topic IS a philosophical one.
___________________
Yulai Guard Forum |
Calfis
Amarr F.R.E.E. Explorer The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.01.11 15:20:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Codo Yagari Edited by: Codo Yagari on 11/01/2011 11:11:30
Actually, if you take a closer look, you'll see that this is wrong. When you practise NBSI you basically have declared war on every single unknown entity and any possible new capsuleer in New Eden. It's extremely hostile.
With NRDS, you send out a statement to unknown entities saying "We come in peace". The NRDS/NBSI topic IS a philosophical one.
Actually, characterizing NBSI as a declaration of war against all neutrals is off as well. Rather it is more of a declaration for all neutrals to safe up and get out of the way if they don't want a fight. I remember FREE Explorer roaming thru my space when I was an Atlas renter. Based on previous experience and intelligence, I stopped engaging the Angel pirates in the system and warped to a POS immediately and they just filtered thru to the next system.
When an NBSI entity declares war upon you, you will know it. As CVA found out last year in Providence, there is a difference between mutual sparring and war. Having 10 ships roaming around Providence shooting at random is much friendlier than hundreds coming to destroy your infrastructure.
P.S. My previous post was as intended, I wanted to set that last sentence apart.
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Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.11 21:50:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Calfis Actually, characterizing NBSI as a declaration of war against all neutrals is off as well. Rather it is more of a declaration for all neutrals to safe up and get out of the way if they don't want a fight.
I think the common relaxed decently behaving capsuleer of New Eden have every right to roam freely in space, and shouldn't have to "safe up" anywhere, for anyone. The NBSI mentality you are describing is a declaration of war against freedom and peace. It sounds very much like a ravaging band of outlaws that has forced the submission of a lone village out on the plains. Whenever the band comes roaming through the village, for whatever purpose, the villagers will (probably) be fine as long as they go back and hide in their house, until you've left. Hardly an honourable fashion of life.
If the fact of the matter is that you are really not interested in the attributes of civilization and common respect that stems from decency, well, please just say so to make it clear for us all.
___________________
Yulai Guard Forum |
Calfis
Amarr F.R.E.E. Explorer The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.01.11 22:55:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Codo Yagari Edited by: Codo Yagari on 11/01/2011 21:59:01 I think the common relaxed decently behaving capsuleer of New Eden have every right to roam freely in space, and shouldn't have to "safe up" anywhere, for anyone. The NBSI mentality you are describing is a declaration of war against freedom and peace.
Is this right to roam freely in anyone's space defined by some overarching authority that is sovereign over all nation-states in New Eden? Perhaps there is some United Nations/Empires body that I am unaware of that is authoring binding resolutions on the matter?
As far as I am concerned The Initiative, Morsus Mihi, and IT Alliance etc. are sovereign entities much like the four empires. Just because they allow any pilots into their space doesn't mean we have to as well. They dictate RoE in their space and we shall do so in ours.
Originally by: Codo Yagari
It sounds very much like a ravaging band of outlaws that has forced the submission of a lone village out on the plains. Whenever the band comes roaming through the village, for whatever purpose, the villagers will (probably) be fine as long as they go back and hide in their house, until you've left. Hardly an honourable fashion of life.
If the fact of the matter is that you are really not interested in the attributes of civilization and common respect that stems from decency, well, please just say so to make it clear for us all.
Nope, more like the ancient Romans of Earth moving through territory that has yet to be annexed into the Empire. If the locals pay tribute and swear loyalty we may yet set them blue.
Sometimes civilization must be built upon the ashes of savage villages.
Originally by: Codo Yagari
Actually, on second thougt, I just realized you compared yourself to Angel pirates, so please ignore the above request.
I noted that while I was engaged in combat with Angel pirates in a system that I occupied by paying tribute to Atlas Alliance I was interrupted by a roaming fleet from my current corporation and I safed up like a smart neutral should since Atlas renters were neutral to FREE Explorer. This is the kind of behavior all pilots should exercise when in space that might be set upon by NBSI entities.
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Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.11 23:24:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Calfis Is this right to roam freely in anyone's space defined by some overarching authority that is sovereign over all nation-states in New Eden? Perhaps there is some United Nations/Empires body that I am unaware of that is authoring binding resolutions on the matter?
Well, without going into too much detail, I believe some of us have an inner voice that guides us, and help us feel for such things as "freedom", "decency" and even "justice". |
Kazzzi
Amarr Heathen Legion Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.01.12 01:50:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Codo Yagari
With NRDS, you send out a statement to unknown entities saying "We come in peace". The NRDS/NBSI topic IS a philosophical one.
Not when the NRDS entity in question are in fact D-bags. Four letters aren't going to change that. |
Calfis
Amarr F.R.E.E. Explorer The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.01.12 05:30:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Codo Yagari
Originally by: Calfis Is this right to roam freely in anyone's space defined by some overarching authority that is sovereign over all nation-states in New Eden? Perhaps there is some United Nations/Empires body that I am unaware of that is authoring binding resolutions on the matter?
Well, without going into too much detail, I believe some of us have an inner voice that guides us, and help us feel for such things as "freedom", "decency" and even "justice".
So there is no legitimate authority that surpasses the sovereign authority granted to alliances under CONCORD Assembly sov mechanics.
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Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.12 12:36:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Calfis
Originally by: Codo Yagari
Originally by: Calfis Is this right to roam freely in anyone's space defined by some overarching authority that is sovereign over all nation-states in New Eden? Perhaps there is some United Nations/Empires body that I am unaware of that is authoring binding resolutions on the matter?
Well, without going into too much detail, I believe some of us have an inner voice that guides us, and help us feel for such things as "freedom", "decency" and even "justice".
So there is no legitimate authority that surpasses the sovereign authority granted to alliances under CONCORD Assembly sov mechanics.
Well, I guess that depends on how religious you are. :) |
Borza Slavak
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.01.12 13:54:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Codo Yagari
Originally by: Calfis Is this right to roam freely in anyone's space defined by some overarching authority that is sovereign over all nation-states in New Eden? Perhaps there is some United Nations/Empires body that I am unaware of that is authoring binding resolutions on the matter?
Well, without going into too much detail, I believe some of us have an inner voice that guides us, and help us feel for such things as "freedom", "decency" and even "justice".
You describe Ushra'Khan perfectly. Relatively peaceful NRDS in three of the empires, NBSI in the one where our people are held in slavery and oppression. We care more for the overwhelming numbers of lives ground under the Amarrian boot-heel than for some capsuleers who choose to operate within and thus support the Amarrian Empire.
Your morality seems to begin and end with tin minority of humans who are pod pilots. For us they're the last concern. Who, then is more concerned with justice, decency and freedom?
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Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.13 06:39:00 -
[130]
Edited by: Codo Yagari on 13/01/2011 06:39:45
Not only Amarrians and those who support slavery fly in the space controlled by pro-slavery Amarr, the civilizations of New Eden are quite mingled.
If you enforced NRDS to fight against those that enslave, it is one matter, but reality is that you kill many innocent by assuming NBSI. You, U'K, are trying to kill a mosquito with a shotgun. The collateral damage you cause is immense, and in a cause where you would have many friends (I personally find the cause of maintaining individual freedom just), you instead make enemies, as history has proven. Wouldn't you agree that it is very hard for you to make friends? At least friends that attempt to live by the NRDS code, and uphold some fashion of order.
If you had a genuine interest in the good health of New Eden, not only would you fight against slavery, but also the immense large proportion of capsuleers that practise piracy. I would say that you have been blinded by hate so that any other cause, however just it may be, will fade to nothingness in your eyes when compared to your main objective. However, slavery is not the only problem of this galaxy, and I do not agree that it is the biggest one either.
When you clean a very dirty room, you start with the biggest mess first, and then move on to clean up the smaller issues. And piracy, NBSI, and indeed the extreme peril of moving into areas covering more than half of the galaxy, where you will be shot down on sight for no reason at all, this is the biggest problem, and where my own personal focus lies. As I said, I am no enemy of the fight for freedom, a right I believe we all have as humans, but your ways of NBSI and the accompanying crudeness and misdirected violence make you very hard to work with indeed. ___________________
Yulai Guard Forum |
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Argus Xen
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2011.01.13 08:39:00 -
[131]
Although I'm a little concerned about the ease with which this noble initiative can be tiped into a method of dealing with the coallition members' political opponents, I want you to know, Codo, that the space bards fully support your cause. We are not an official group and don't have considerable assets, but our ways follow the same path as yours, and we will be glad to spread the word among the newcoming capsuleers to guide them down the right path. Not only may your politics prevent more pirates from scourging New Eden, but, should the Null-sec corporations accept NRDS terms and support law in their realms, these sovereign regions may well become trading hubs that will bring prosperity to their owners.
Peace to you, fellow New Edians. May the wisdom of the Old guide you. I'm like a leaf in the wind - watch how I soar. - (ancient Minmatar lore) |
Kazzzi
Amarr Heathen Legion Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.01.13 10:27:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Codo Yagari Edited by: Codo Yagari on 13/01/2011 06:39:45
Not only Amarrians and those who support slavery fly in the space controlled by pro-slavery Amarr, the civilizations of New Eden are quite mingled.
Of course, which is why we continuously seek out those who share our ideals who we may potentially run across in free-fire zones and make every attempt at negotiating positive relations beforehand. We're quite pro-active with diplomacy, whereas a universal NRDS entities method of diplomacy may possibly consist of nothing more than checking red boxes.
We take our standings very seriously and have a very detailed ROE. We do not abide by forced standing enclosurism. This has often angered allies in our long history, but we maintain our principles. We will not set reds without sufficient cause. Universal NRDS may not promote forced standings enclosurism, but it does tolerate it.
You may choose to ignore politics and consider your extremely broad definition of piracy to be of more importance than the war against slavery, but we'll just have to agree to disagree. |
Borza Slavak
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.01.13 12:40:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Codo Yagari
When you clean a very dirty room, you start with the biggest mess first, and then move on to clean up the smaller issues. And piracy, NBSI, and indeed the extreme peril of moving into areas covering more than half of the galaxy, where you will be shot down on sight for no reason at all, this is the biggest problem, and where my own personal focus lies. As I said, I am no enemy of the fight for freedom, a right I believe we all have as humans, but your ways of NBSI and the accompanying crudeness and misdirected violence make you very hard to work with indeed.
Capsuleer piracy is only a danger to capsuleers and their crews - who know what they're getting into. In our opinion every pod pilot is capable of looking after themselves. Our concern is for the rest of humanity and their freedom from ownership rather than the ease with which capsuleers move freely. Basically we disagree on what is the 'biggest mess' because we care more for the suffering of those who cannot help themselves to the same extent that the lowliest of capsuleers can, while you care more for protecting a minority group often seen as 'demi-gods'.
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Horizonist
Yulai Guard 2nd Fleet Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.14 16:05:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Kazzzi
Originally by: Codo Yagari Edited by: Codo Yagari on 13/01/2011 06:39:45
Not only Amarrians and those who support slavery fly in the space controlled by pro-slavery Amarr, the civilizations of New Eden are quite mingled.
Of course, which is why we continuously seek out those who share our ideals who we may potentially run across in free-fire zones and make every attempt at negotiating positive relations beforehand. We're quite pro-active with diplomacy, whereas a universal NRDS entities method of diplomacy may possibly consist of nothing more than checking red boxes.
We take our standings very seriously and have a very detailed ROE. We do not abide by forced standing enclosurism. This has often angered allies in our long history, but we maintain our principles. We will not set reds without sufficient cause. Universal NRDS may not promote forced standings enclosurism, but it does tolerate it.
You may choose to ignore politics and consider your extremely broad definition of piracy to be of more importance than the war against slavery, but we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Kazzzi, why the hostilities between you (UK) and those of us in the Great Wildlands NRDS community? I recently moved in with my corp and do not know the whole story, but I do believe we have far greater use of flying together (at least in GW) then we do flying against each other. I would like to hear your take on this.
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Borza Slavak
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.01.14 16:23:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Horizonist
Originally by: Kazzzi
Originally by: Codo Yagari Edited by: Codo Yagari on 13/01/2011 06:39:45
Not only Amarrians and those who support slavery fly in the space controlled by pro-slavery Amarr, the civilizations of New Eden are quite mingled.
Of course, which is why we continuously seek out those who share our ideals who we may potentially run across in free-fire zones and make every attempt at negotiating positive relations beforehand. We're quite pro-active with diplomacy, whereas a universal NRDS entities method of diplomacy may possibly consist of nothing more than checking red boxes.
We take our standings very seriously and have a very detailed ROE. We do not abide by forced standing enclosurism. This has often angered allies in our long history, but we maintain our principles. We will not set reds without sufficient cause. Universal NRDS may not promote forced standings enclosurism, but it does tolerate it.
You may choose to ignore politics and consider your extremely broad definition of piracy to be of more importance than the war against slavery, but we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Kazzzi, why the hostilities between you (UK) and those of us in the Great Wildlands NRDS community? I recently moved in with my corp and do not know the whole story, but I do believe we have far greater use of flying together (at least in GW) then we do flying against each other. I would like to hear your take on this.
Oh wow that's just asking for drama to discuss that here. It's a long and twisted tale.
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Horizonist
Yulai Guard 2nd Fleet Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.14 16:31:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Borza Slavak
Originally by: Horizonist
Originally by: Kazzzi
Originally by: Codo Yagari Edited by: Codo Yagari on 13/01/2011 06:39:45
Not only Amarrians and those who support slavery fly in the space controlled by pro-slavery Amarr, the civilizations of New Eden are quite mingled.
Of course, which is why we continuously seek out those who share our ideals who we may potentially run across in free-fire zones and make every attempt at negotiating positive relations beforehand. We're quite pro-active with diplomacy, whereas a universal NRDS entities method of diplomacy may possibly consist of nothing more than checking red boxes.
We take our standings very seriously and have a very detailed ROE. We do not abide by forced standing enclosurism. This has often angered allies in our long history, but we maintain our principles. We will not set reds without sufficient cause. Universal NRDS may not promote forced standings enclosurism, but it does tolerate it.
You may choose to ignore politics and consider your extremely broad definition of piracy to be of more importance than the war against slavery, but we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Kazzzi, why the hostilities between you (UK) and those of us in the Great Wildlands NRDS community? I recently moved in with my corp and do not know the whole story, but I do believe we have far greater use of flying together (at least in GW) then we do flying against each other. I would like to hear your take on this.
Oh wow that's just asking for drama to discuss that here. It's a long and twisted tale.
I do not know it, but even so, I think it is regrettable. I would very much like to see us on the same side in this region, which sees enough fighting as it is. It is genuinely in both our interests.
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Kazzzi
Amarr Heathen Legion Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.01.14 18:57:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Horizonist I think it is regrettable.
I agree it is, feel free to contact me anytime to discuss it. |
Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.31 10:49:00 -
[138]
Just to make clear, the NRDS Coalition does not work with entities that practise a wide spread NBSI policy. ___________________
Yulai Guard Forum |
Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
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Posted - 2011.01.31 11:26:00 -
[139]
Just by curiosity, can you define "wide spread NBSI policy" ? |
Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.02.01 11:59:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Lyn Farel Just by curiosity, can you define "wide spread NBSI policy" ?
Ah, yes, that was a reference to the Ushra'Khan. But in general, the NRDS Coalition does not work with anyone who practises NBSI. |
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Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
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Posted - 2011.02.01 15:27:00 -
[141]
Thank you for your answer.
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Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.02.08 11:59:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Argus Xen Although I'm a little concerned about the ease with which this noble initiative can be tiped into a method of dealing with the coallition members' political opponents, I want you to know, Codo, that the space bards fully support your cause. We are not an official group and don't have considerable assets, but our ways follow the same path as yours, and we will be glad to spread the word among the newcoming capsuleers to guide them down the right path. Not only may your politics prevent more pirates from scourging New Eden, but, should the Null-sec corporations accept NRDS terms and support law in their realms, these sovereign regions may well become trading hubs that will bring prosperity to their owners.
Peace to you, fellow New Edians. May the wisdom of the Old guide you.
Your words warm, because the only way for NRDS to actually become a philosophy to be reckoned with, is if those that are truly interested in peace and civilization, work together.
For New Eden! o7 |
Harlekin Simplex
Adeptus Quinta
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Posted - 2011.02.15 15:50:00 -
[143]
Friends, Romans and countrymen, lend me your ears.
I just read through most of the posts regarding NBSI vs. NRDS an d just came up with a single comment:
At the end it just always comes down to money...
From my point of view NBSI is just a synonym for greed. Any capsuleer that has his roots in such a mental setup will NEVER EVER be able to understand what the true gist of NRDS is all about. No point in arguing. He/She will always find good reasons why NBSI is way better than NRDS, just to keep his/her personal 'profit' or state of living as high as possible. That still holds true even if his/her corp has a so called 'communistic' structure. But what is more important and disruptive for New Eden is that those Sovereigns part the universe into 'us' and 'them', meaning 'we' are good and the 'others' are evil. That kind of thinking is the same disease that actually destroys the home world of mankind as well. Yet another similarity one can find between EVE and real live.
I had my personal share of NBSI and combat already. Five years into EVE taught me how to fight for my own profit while waving the flag of my corp and alliance. Eventually I found out what the price is for all those ships blown apart during the fights for nothing else but territorial sovereignity and the 'right' to plunder the conquered ressorces just to build more and bigger ships that could be blown to pieces as well.
All those NBSI worshipers are victims to 'panem et circenses'. They have given up their birthright of political involvement. The mighty leaders of those NBSI Corps and Alliances have long found out that giving out cheap food and entertainment, "bread and circuses", would be the most effective way to rise to power.
But EVE is not just PvP and world domination. It is simply not just that more than 60% of our 0.0 Universe is claimed by such a violent and enslaving mindset.
If we can change New Eden now, there will be hope for mankind as well.
Morituri te salutant Harlekin Morituri te salutant. Willkommen im Vorhof zur H÷lle! Lass alle Hoffnung fahren... |
Xina Tutor
Amarr Hot Chicks
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Posted - 2011.02.16 11:17:00 -
[144]
NRDS, and indeed NBSI, are meaningless terms in of themselves. There may well be those who call themselves NRDS, but if they set everyone red then it's hardly in the spirit of peace and co-operation. UK is likely the worst case of this, but SF and CVA also share similar faults. There are NBSI alliances that are more aimed towards peace and co-operation than some who claim to be NRDS.
You certainly need a greater foundation than these RoE to define a true movement within New Eden.
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Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.02.17 11:03:00 -
[145]
Edited by: Codo Yagari on 17/02/2011 11:03:17
Originally by: Xina Tutor
NRDS, and indeed NBSI, are meaningless terms in of themselves. There may well be those who call themselves NRDS, but if they set everyone red then it's hardly in the spirit of peace and co-operation. UK is likely the worst case of this, but SF and CVA also share similar faults. There are NBSI alliances that are more aimed towards peace and co-operation than some who claim to be NRDS.
You certainly need a greater foundation than these RoE to define a true movement within New Eden.
As have been discussed several times previously in this thread already, maintaining an NRDS policy is much more than just a RoE policy. It is a philosophy towards live, that one does not attack neutrals and strangers per default. I agree that some of the dominant NRDS groups are not perfect, but fact remains, they aim to act peacefully by default. NBSI aims to act with agression per defualt. I would think this is apparent, that it is more than a RoE. In a very broad sense I would even dare to be so bold to say that NRDS and NBSI is the same as order and chaos, good and evil, love and hate.
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Teutonii
Viriette MicroLabs
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Posted - 2011.02.17 15:37:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Codo Yagari ...In a very broad sense I would even dare to be so bold to say that NRDS and NBSI is the same as order and chaos, good and evil, love and hate.
I understand that these terms are designed to be as all-encompassing and as broad as possible but they have the potential to unintentionally provoke reaction. "Good" and "evil" can be so inflamitory.
Perhaps you might like to consider the terms 'proactive' and 'reactive'.
It's clear that both NBSI and NRDS (and indeed the recently coined "practical discretion" as used by EL-G) deal with the notion of an individual's or corporation's self preservation.
This single issue - security - is addressed very differently, though and I agree with Mr Yagari that it is a state of mind, a philosophy that decides which option is chosen.
NBSI is 'proactive'. It deals with the potential and unknown threats. "Attack is best form of defense", and so on.
NRDS is 'reactive'. It is only once a threat has identified itself through words and actions, the appropriate negative standings are applied and further action is taken accordingly.
Personally, I'm more comfortable with the NRDS case, though I fully understand the concerns of those who don't want to wait until after the event to apply a red sticker to an individual or corporation for future reference.
Teutonii CEO. Viriette MicroLabs
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2011.02.17 17:40:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Teutonii
Personally, I'm more comfortable with the NRDS case, though I fully understand the concerns of those who don't want to wait until after the event to apply a red sticker to an individual or corporation for future reference.
Often this latter argument is made by very cowardly pilots who fear this spectre of sudden assault by "neutrals" leading to destruction of their vessel but I have say in my experience a strong and confident individual captain will rarely place themselves into a position where such things are likely to result in loss. Yes "neutrals" will sometimes reveal themselves as enemies with attempt at surprise but reality is such crass methodology cloaks weakness more often than not.
When "neutrals" attack Free Captains of the Star Fraction our comrades are fully authorized to return deadly fire in defense of their ships and more often than not this leads to the aggressors added to the red list as well as reduced to tumbling wreckage. The "book-keeping" as such is simply posting of aggression logs in the diplomatic forums so formal standings alternation can be concluded.
What it does achieve (and here is one of the strongest advantages of NRDS as an ROE) is to establish moral certainty in the conduct of our wars and combat actions. When we shoot our reds we know they deserve it. Their organizations took hostile action or otherwise invited violence by their decisions and our captains know they are fighting for a reason that makes sense - not simply to feed the demons of capsuleer dementia or satisfy a hungry call-centre killboard culture.
Join the Revolution!
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Xina Tutor
Amarr Hot Chicks
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Posted - 2011.02.18 11:17:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Codo Yagari Edited by: Codo Yagari on 17/02/2011 11:03:17
Originally by: Xina Tutor
NRDS, and indeed NBSI, are meaningless terms in of themselves. There may well be those who call themselves NRDS, but if they set everyone red then it's hardly in the spirit of peace and co-operation. UK is likely the worst case of this, but SF and CVA also share similar faults. There are NBSI alliances that are more aimed towards peace and co-operation than some who claim to be NRDS.
You certainly need a greater foundation than these RoE to define a true movement within New Eden.
As have been discussed several times previously in this thread already, maintaining an NRDS policy is much more than just a RoE policy. It is a philosophy towards live, that one does not attack neutrals and strangers per default. I agree that some of the dominant NRDS groups are not perfect, but fact remains, they aim to act peacefully by default. NBSI aims to act with agression per defualt. I would think this is apparent, that it is more than a RoE. In a very broad sense I would even dare to be so bold to say that NRDS and NBSI is the same as order and chaos, good and evil, love and hate.
I don't agree with the NRDS=Order/good and NBSI=chaos/evil as a given fact. It's not quite that simple. A lot more of New Eden was red to me while I was in a NRDS alliance than when I was in the NBSI/NRDS(in empire) northern coalition. And lets face it, the north is the biggest group of orderly carebears out there. The northern holdings make empire space looks positively hostile.
But certainly, I will not attack any without reason. Even with my enemies I tend to allow them the honour of the first shot. Unless it's Jade, of course ;)
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Borza Slavak
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.02.18 11:55:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Codo Yagari
As have been discussed several times previously in this thread already, maintaining an NRDS policy is much more than just a RoE policy. It is a philosophy towards live, that one does not attack neutrals and strangers per default.
To some people. We don't romanticise Rules of Engagements. They are simply tools, means towards an end. Having your entire philosophy consist of a RoE seems laughably simplistic, even to me.
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Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.02.18 13:27:00 -
[150]
Edited by: Codo Yagari on 18/02/2011 13:27:52
Originally by: Borza Slavak To some people. We don't romanticise Rules of Engagements. They are simply tools, means towards an end. Having your entire philosophy consist of a RoE seems laughably simplistic, even to me.
It is indeed quite simple. The NRDS Coalition strives for peace and relaxed, civilized order. Something that is impossible to attain if you conduct NBSI, since that in fact would make you the agressor, and the one that relieves any situation involving unknown entities a chance peace.
It doesnt have to be more complicated than this. How complicated is it to want peace and harmony? Hypothetically, if all were practising NRDS and observing a decent philosophy of showing respect, it would bring about a fairly peaceful environment. If everyone was practising NBSI, I think that it's obvious peace would be much harder to come by. |
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Borza Slavak
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.02.18 13:36:00 -
[151]
Edited by: Borza Slavak on 18/02/2011 13:37:05 How wonderful.
For capsuleers. And really, them and their crews are the only thing pilot RoE affects. For some of us however the well-being of this privileged class is of trivial importance. Frankly your attempts to create a 'civilized' utopia of an unimaginably wealthy elite while trillions of people suffer needlessly planet-side are sickening. Such self-satisfied complacency is not for us...
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2011.02.18 19:54:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Codo Yagari It doesnt have to be more complicated than this. How complicated is it to want peace and harmony? Hypothetically, if all were practising NRDS and observing a decent philosophy of showing respect, it would bring about a fairly peaceful environment. If everyone was practising NBSI, I think that it's obvious peace would be much harder to come by.
I have to agree entirely with comrade Slavak monsieur Yagari. NRDS in and of itself is not a guarentee of civility, honesty, justice or civilization. The proof of this was in the horrorshow the Amarrian Nationalist CVA made of Providence region dominated by regressive imperialism its puppets tugging their forelocks to the theocratic hierarchy foisted in as holders and government. It doesn't take much for an evil man to set a decent one -10 KOS under NRDS. And moving freely amongst horrors as a capsuleer in orbit while the torture farms and punishment yards do their bloody business on the worlds below is nothing to sing songs of freedom about.
NRDS can be used for appalling repression.
I will agree that NRDS is a better starting point than NBSI if one seeks to build a genuinely courageous and honest interstellar society but NRDS itself as a simple ROE should never be used to excuse political regression and expansion of Amarrian Imperial dogma.
Where Star Fraction and the Ushra'khan differed on NRDS/NBSI in the former Providence wars was simply a difference in tactics. We tried to peal away genuine neutrals from the CVA influence by allowing them to BE neutral if they chose and to this end saw no profit in forcing them to be enemies. Whereas the Ushra'khan saw ALL who trafficked with CVA as tainted and responsible for the suffering of their kinsmen on the worlds below and considered scourging space of profit would lead to the liberation.
But both allies considered the NRDS of the CVA utterly corrupt and heinous in its applications.
You would be wise to understand this Codo Yagari - the mechanism of setting a man red before you shoot him doesn't neccessarily mean you are a righteous and civilized man - it can also mean you are a bloody-handed villain who understands bureacracy and the value of appearances.
Join the Revolution!
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Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.02.21 12:23:00 -
[153]
I see your point, really.
NRDS can be abused, if not steming from a true desire for peaceful cooperation. However, as far as I am concerned NBSI is ALWAYS abuse. That should put some persepctive on which RoE is the more sane.
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Major JSilva
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.02.21 12:31:00 -
[154]
I have to say the whole point of you "universal" NRDS is very flawed and sadly will never work. Having operated in deep 0.0 and low-sec one needs to adopt a so called NBSI policy.
NBSI in 0.0 is standard because the alliances who enforce it own the territory which is their home. Free from CONCORD enforcement thus creating capsuleer nation-states in a certain regard.
I'm not familar with you personal operating history so i wouldn't know where you came up with this idea though I'm sure you watch the New Eden Assembly. This would be an interesting discussion to have.
I'm not one for posting on the IGS often but if you need to reach me. I'm sure we talk about this concept futher.
Silva
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Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.02.21 12:50:00 -
[155]
There have been several instances in the history of New Eden where NRDS was (and still is) enforced in 0.0 sec, and it works perfectly fine. But obviously, because NBSI have so much greater numerical support, it has always been a hard struggle to maintain an NRDS RoE, since for apparent reasons NRDS and NBSI are natural enemies.
However, when the going gets tough, the tough get going! |
Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
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Posted - 2011.02.21 13:52:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Major JSilva I have to say the whole point of you "universal" NRDS is very flawed and sadly will never work. Having operated in deep 0.0 and low-sec one needs to adopt a so called NBSI policy.
NBSI in 0.0 is standard because the alliances who enforce it own the territory which is their home. Free from CONCORD enforcement thus creating capsuleer nation-states in a certain regard.
I disagree, for the same reasons explained by Mr Yagari. |
Jock Landers
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Posted - 2011.02.21 18:05:00 -
[157]
My personal opinion is that NRDS is better for New Eden in several different ways. One being it promotes a sense of community and is more friendly to new pilots of Eve. My preference is to play this game in a manner that's supportive rather than desctructive. A community of NRDS should support each other, and proactively fight those that stand against this coalition.
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Lu'ay al Din
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.02.22 02:19:00 -
[158]
I am but a mere servant of His will, but I would like to make an addition to your discussion, mr. Yagari.
If we all let God guide our actions such practicalities as you describe are really not neccessary. It is the mind of the strongwilled that needs his lesser proponents to behave in a manner he can control and he upholds it with measures easily understandable and executable to them, like NRDS and NBSI.
His Will is neither Red, nor Blue, his path not paved with certainty nor simplicity, but with love and foregiveness. Civility, justice, revenge or whatever motive that is fueling the rules of human contact and individual decisions on how to engage in interstellar relations cannot be captured in the simple rules we state as NRDS or NBSI.
It is the spirit of what this NRDS Coalition Initiative says that we should expand upon. And if there has to be somewhere to start to improve or even normalize interstellar relations what better can we use other than the insights and guidance given to us in Pax Amarria.
Shall I provide copies of Pax Amarria to the members of your coalition?
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