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Proton Power Amarr Luck Yourself Into Isk	Posted - 2010.09.03 23:15:00 - [1] Copy from AC post in T4U Thread *IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT* ALL TRADING OF T4U SHARES HAS BEEN SUSPENDED. DO NOT BUY/SELL ANY T4U SHARES. At 06:54 eve time on 2010.09.03, 5 votes were started to unlock the 5 titan bpo's in the "super secret corp". The director alts were kicked out the previous day supposedly to "keep any of you from grabbing the 600 votes that were created for the new directors". This is either a really mean test of the system or Bad Bobby has decided to cut and run. More info to come as it is available.
AtheistOfFail Caldari	Posted - 2010.09.03 23:17:00 - [2] Buying ALL TITANS 4 U Shares for 0.1 isk each. Dump them before they failscade.
Jerreie	Posted - 2010.09.03 23:18:00 - [3] I did not see this coming at all. Oh no sir.
Drexciyian The Water Margin Tech	Posted - 2010.09.03 23:50:00 - [4] Edited by: Drexciyian on 03/09/2010 23:50:43 maybe he watched the new eve trailer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGplrpWvz0I
Dzil Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve OWN Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.03 23:51:00 - [5] To an epic thread! /toast Retired from corp sales. Time to spend some of this on pretty explosions :)
AtheistOfFail Caldari	Posted - 2010.09.03 23:54:00 - [6] Originally by: Drexciyian Edited by: Drexciyian on 03/09/2010 23:50:43 maybe he watched the new eve trailer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGplrpWvz0I Too late. Made the connection before you.
Cheque Please Hot Like Mexico	Posted - 2010.09.03 23:57:00 - [7] HELTER SKELTER ... but I'm confused? If Bad Bobby can just kick the 5 director alt's out of the corp, what security does that even offer? I thought the point was so that he couldn't do just that and run off with everything. --- WORMHOLE SERVICE RL Meeting w/ Chribba
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.09.03 23:58:00 - [8] Originally by: Cheque Please HELTER SKELTER ... but I'm confused? If Bad Bobby can just kick the 5 director alt's out of the corp, what security does that even offer? I thought the point was so that he couldn't do just that and run off with everything. The plan was, The alts would only be needed if he died. No one really thought about him scamming.
AtheistOfFail Caldari	Posted - 2010.09.03 23:59:00 - [9] Originally by: Cheque Please HELTER SKELTER ... but I'm confused? If Bad Bobby can just kick the 5 director alt's out of the corp, what security does that even offer? I thought the point was so that he couldn't do just that and run off with everything. I guess someone royally ****ed up. Lesson to learn kids is, it's not secure unless it's actually secure.
Proton Power Amarr Luck Yourself Into Isk	Posted - 2010.09.04 00:00:00 - [10] Originally by: Breaker77 Originally by: Cheque Please HELTER SKELTER ... but I'm confused? If Bad Bobby can just kick the 5 director alt's out of the corp, what security does that even offer? I thought the point was so that he couldn't do just that and run off with everything. The plan was, The alts would only be needed if he died. No one really thought about him scamming. Sorta correct. The theory was to prvent the scam we would keep bpo's locked down since we controlled 800 shares, bad only 200. Problem is the investors voted to create more voting shares after i said it was a bad idea. So 600 more shares were created, meaning bad bobby has same shares we do now. So if one of the 4 of us dont sign in to vote the walks away with the bpo's.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.09.04 00:02:00 - [11] Originally by: Proton Power So if one of the 4 of us dont sign in to vote the walks away with the bpo's. and Kazzac is MIA. That leaves Bobby with a majority. Doesn't matter though and even with Kazzac, Bobby has the BPOs and no one else can do anything with them.
Estel Arador	Posted - 2010.09.04 00:07:00 - [12] WTS: my three (3) T4U shares. Free jumpclone service\|1092 stations!
AtheistOfFail Caldari	Posted - 2010.09.04 00:11:00 - [13] Originally by: Estel Arador WTS: my three (3) T4U shares. I hate to lowball you, but how much were the worth when they were on sale. I am broke but i'd love have at least 1 piece of EvE history.
Cheque Please Hot Like Mexico	Posted - 2010.09.04 00:11:00 - [14] Originally by: Proton Power Sorta correct. The theory was to prvent the scam we would keep bpo's locked down since we controlled 800 shares, bad only 200. Problem is the investors voted to create more voting shares after i said it was a bad idea. So 600 more shares were created, meaning bad bobby has same shares we do now. So if one of the 4 of us dont sign in to vote the walks away with the bpo's. Ah, that's a shame. I feel for the investors. It seems as soon as the MD population plunges down the scam slide, it inevitably heads right back up for another ride. Either his account got hacked at the most opportunistic time, he is trying to move the blueprints without telling anyone (?), or he's an evil mastermind taking a run. Which one is the most likely? Gather up everyone. Group hug. --- WORMHOLE SERVICE RL Meeting w/ Chribba
Execer Apex Consortium DEM0N HUNTERS	Posted - 2010.09.04 00:16:00 - [15] I just bought a 1000 shares 2 days ago! Maybe the guy I bought them from knew something! Heres to hoping... (I realise that is a minor amount of isk compared to others, but still...)
AtheistOfFail Caldari	Posted - 2010.09.04 00:19:00 - [16] Originally by: Execer I just bought a 1000 shares 2 days ago! Maybe the guy I bought them from knew something! Heres to hoping... (I realise that is a minor amount of isk compared to others, but still...) How much was the cost per share? I didn't have any isk invested into this but i had thought about it.
Execer Apex Consortium DEM0N HUNTERS	Posted - 2010.09.04 00:21:00 - [17] Originally by: AtheistOfFail Originally by: Execer I just bought a 1000 shares 2 days ago! Maybe the guy I bought them from knew something! Heres to hoping... (I realise that is a minor amount of isk compared to others, but still...) How much was the cost per share? I didn't have any isk invested into this but i had thought about it. I paid 1.1m per share which seemed to be the going resale value at the time. Bobby was doing the 3rd party trading for free right up until last night.
AtheistOfFail Caldari	Posted - 2010.09.04 00:23:00 - [18] Originally by: Execer Originally by: AtheistOfFail Originally by: Execer I just bought a 1000 shares 2 days ago! Maybe the guy I bought them from knew something! Heres to hoping... (I realise that is a minor amount of isk compared to others, but still...) How much was the cost per share? I didn't have any isk invested into this but i had thought about it. I paid 1.1m per share which seemed to be the going resale value at the time. Bobby was doing the 3rd party trading for free right up until last night. That's still over 1.1 billion . Damn, sorry for you if this is a corp theft going on
Bad Bobby The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2010.09.04 00:25:00 - [19] Originally by: Proton Power So if one of the 4 of us dont sign in to vote the walks away with the bpo's. There were 5 trustees. Guess who has the 5th trustee's shares?
Proton Power Amarr Luck Yourself Into Isk	Posted - 2010.09.04 00:29:00 - [20] Originally by: Bad Bobby Originally by: Proton Power So if one of the 4 of us dont sign in to vote the walks away with the bpo's. There were 5 trustees. Guess who has the 5th trustee's shares? You we already know this, + you created 200 making it so you have 800. Meaning we tie at best (not sure whath appens then). But I am sure somone wont vote sooner or later.
Bad Bobby The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2010.09.04 00:32:00 - [21] Originally by: Proton Power Originally by: Bad Bobby Originally by: Proton Power So if one of the 4 of us dont sign in to vote the walks away with the bpo's. There were 5 trustees. Guess who has the 5th trustee's shares? You we already know this, + you created 200 making it so you have 800. Meaning we tie at best (not sure whath appens then). But I am sure somone wont vote sooner or later. No. I have 1000. You have 800 between you. I don't leave details like this to chance.
Proton Power Amarr Luck Yourself Into Isk	Posted - 2010.09.04 00:36:00 - [22] Originally by: Bad Bobby Originally by: Proton Power Originally by: Bad Bobby Originally by: Proton Power So if one of the 4 of us dont sign in to vote the walks away with the bpo's. There were 5 trustees. Guess who has the 5th trustee's shares? You we already know this, + you created 200 making it so you have 800. Meaning we tie at best (not sure whath appens then). But I am sure somone wont vote sooner or later. No. I have 1000. You have 800 between you. I don't leave details like this to chance. Yea either way nothign we could do, over time you would win. Wish you the best of luck with your new found fortune.
Martosh Toma Gallente Fraction Investment	Posted - 2010.09.04 00:41:00 - [23] so what if the trustees had demanded you'd make this installing process for the new trustees save, requiring you to create smaller blocks and having the new trustees confirming receiving the shares before creating new shares. would this have kept the whole thing working as originally presented?
PinkFish	Posted - 2010.09.04 01:06:00 - [24] I'm surprised Bobby didn't try to expand the offering further before he cut. Bobby went very quick from his previous offerings of a few billion in traditional business to quick mega-size offering with t4u. I had invested previously (different char), but this quick expansion screamed scam. While I'm glad I didn't lose anything on this, I'm sad to see what was becoming an institution of EVE fall just like all of the others. Maybe the next mega scam attempt will involve directors who enforce security early before the possibility of a scam exists.
Bad Bobby The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2010.09.04 01:10:00 - [25] Originally by: Martosh Toma so what if the trustees had demanded you'd make this installing process for the new trustees save, requiring you to create smaller blocks and having the new trustees confirming receiving the shares before creating new shares. would this have kept the whole thing working as originally presented? Yes
Martosh Toma Gallente Fraction Investment	Posted - 2010.09.04 01:21:00 - [26] Thought so. BB, I need to go to sleep, need to be awake tomorrow supervising some sea scouts. Could you please clearly confirm or deny whether I lost almost 24B (and others whatever they invested) on this? even if only privately? I mean, this is just a game and I should not loose sleep over it, but the suspense and frequent updates are keeping me awake.
NuetTraderAlt	Posted - 2010.09.04 01:22:00 - [27] Originally by: Martosh Toma Thought so. BB, I need to go to sleep, need to be awake tomorrow supervising some sea scouts. Could you please clearly confirm or deny whether I lost almost 24B (and others whatever they invested) on this? even if only privately? I mean, this is just a game and I should not loose sleep over it, but the suspense and frequent updates are keeping me awake. That money was gone the moment you gave it to someone else. Just act like that with your investments and you'll actually be surprised when something isn't a scam or a failscade.
Bad Bobby The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2010.09.04 01:24:00 - [28] Originally by: Martosh Toma Thought so. BB, I need to go to sleep, need to be awake tomorrow supervising some sea scouts. Could you please clearly confirm or deny whether I lost almost 24B (and others whatever they invested) on this? even if only privately? I mean, this is just a game and I should not loose sleep over it, but the suspense and frequent updates are keeping me awake. Ok. I can confirm that I have scammed something in the region of 850b from T4U and other ventures. The UTU bond is not included in those that I have scammed. That bond is with Garmon, not me. I'll provide more details later. I need to sleep too.
Martosh Toma Gallente Fraction Investment	Posted - 2010.09.04 01:26:00 - [29] ok, thx and good night. (and may you be podded for all eveturnity)
AtheistOfFail Caldari	Posted - 2010.09.04 01:27:00 - [30] Edited by: AtheistOfFail on 04/09/2010 01:27:27 Originally by: Bad Bobby Originally by: Martosh Toma Thought so. BB, I need to go to sleep, need to be awake tomorrow supervising some sea scouts. Could you please clearly confirm or deny whether I lost almost 24B (and others whatever they invested) on this? even if only privately? I mean, this is just a game and I should not loose sleep over it, but the suspense and frequent updates are keeping me awake. Ok. I can confirm that I have scammed something in the region of 850b from T4U and other ventures. The UTU bond is not included in those that I have scammed. That bond is with Garmon, not me. I'll provide more details later. I need to sleep too. I'm buying every share anyone can spare for 1 isk each. I'm really bored so just send them and i'll send you some isk or send me a mail. PS: Threw this into the ISD news leads cause it might just be my lucky day to be on the first page. PSS: I'm getting my merlin. I swear.
LarcatOfZion Sudden Buggery	Posted - 2010.09.04 01:32:00 - [31] Originally by: Bad Bobby Originally by: Martosh Toma Thought so. BB, I need to go to sleep, need to be awake tomorrow supervising some sea scouts. Could you please clearly confirm or deny whether I lost almost 24B (and others whatever they invested) on this? even if only privately? I mean, this is just a game and I should not loose sleep over it, but the suspense and frequent updates are keeping me awake. Ok. I can confirm that I have scammed something in the region of 850b from T4U and other ventures. The UTU bond is not included in those that I have scammed. That bond is with Garmon, not me. I'll provide more details later. I need to sleep too. TBH RMT and buy an old DB4 and restore it :)
Morolen1 Cobalt Dragon Exploration Company	Posted - 2010.09.04 01:35:00 - [32] so how does this compare to other scams? top 10? 5? 3? ----- I'm a Caldari Nationalist, Fascist is Such an ugly word.
LarcatOfZion Sudden Buggery	Posted - 2010.09.04 01:36:00 - [33] Originally by: Morolen1 so how does this compare to other scams? top 10? 5? 3? Depends on what you consider. In terms of damage, probably 3rd after BOB and Goons. In terms of actual cash in pocket for the hustla', probably #1.
Zea Aestria	Posted - 2010.09.04 01:37:00 - [34] Originally by: LarcatOfZion TBH RMT and buy an old DB4 and restore it :) I vote for buying 2,550 PLEX (if there are even that many currently in Eve) and loading them up in a kestrel headed for Jita.
AtheistOfFail Caldari	Posted - 2010.09.04 01:40:00 - [35] Bad Bobby, give the 850b back or the Stickman gets it. Stickman > Do it man, i got a family. holds a gun close to Stickman's head
Morolen1 Cobalt Dragon Exploration Company	Posted - 2010.09.04 01:41:00 - [36] Originally by: LarcatOfZion Originally by: Morolen1 so how does this compare to other scams? top 10? 5? 3? Depends on what you consider. In terms of damage, probably 3rd after BOB and Goons. In terms of actual cash in pocket for the hustla', probably #1. more then EIB? damn, feels historic. ----- I'm a Caldari Nationalist, Fascist is Such an ugly word.
Shivercoin	Posted - 2010.09.04 01:50:00 - [37] Can I have a loan bobby?
MMarlon SRBI Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.09.04 01:52:00 - [38] Well, one thing is for sure. NONE of you learned the lesson. Now run to next ipo to invest whats left of your isk.
Tobin Shalim Eclipse Industrials Quantum Forge	Posted - 2010.09.04 01:53:00 - [39] Edited by: Tobin Shalim on 04/09/2010 01:53:54 Originally by: Bad Bobby Originally by: Martosh Toma Thought so. BB, I need to go to sleep, need to be awake tomorrow supervising some sea scouts. Could you please clearly confirm or deny whether I lost almost 24B (and others whatever they invested) on this? even if only privately? I mean, this is just a game and I should not loose sleep over it, but the suspense and frequent updates are keeping me awake. Ok. I can confirm that I have scammed something in the region of 850b from T4U and other ventures. The UTU bond is not included in those that I have scammed. That bond is with Garmon, not me. I'll provide more details later. I need to sleep too. 850b ISK. 850,000,000,000. I look at that as just a number and it's impressive. I try to actually put substance to that number and my mind just goes 'splody. Assuming PLEX's are around 330mil, that translates to 211 years of gametime. Damn. Edit: I have to ask, what exactly would you do with all that ISK? What are you planning to do? ----- Originally by: Gierling Tech III is going to be "Fully modular" until someone crams the "EW Bonus" modules together with the "8 Midslots" modules...
AtheistOfFail Caldari	Posted - 2010.09.04 01:54:00 - [40] Originally by: MMarlon Well, one thing is for sure. NONE of you learned the lesson. Now run to next ipo to invest whats left of your isk. Easy for me. Didn't invest in this one. Won't invest in any others. One of the best things of being broke as hell
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc SRS.	Posted - 2010.09.04 02:06:00 - [41] pssst....I got a ipo that involves titan blueprints, wanna invest?
ShadowandLight Amarr Doom Guard Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.09.04 02:17:00 - [42] if people were still actively stupid enough to give anyone isk in this game of any real quantity, i hope that this just killed that entirely. ------- "The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1 Hoist the Colors!
Deuce Longshot	Posted - 2010.09.04 02:32:00 - [43] Hey Bobby, can i have several hundred million? It would be much appreciated :D
Zeuth Proxy Caldari Nomadic Asylum	Posted - 2010.09.04 02:36:00 - [44] Honestly who didn't see this coming?
Racou	Posted - 2010.09.04 03:32:00 - [45] There is a sucker born every minute, even in Eve. Greed will rob you blind :)
Fabullite Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.09.04 03:42:00 - [46] Seriously, you placed trust and invested billions in an internet game persona called "Bad Bobby" wtf did you expect lol Next time just send the isk to me....or do I need to create an alt called Deceiptful Dave or Scamming Sam.
MMarlon SRBI Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.09.04 03:51:00 - [47] Look, don't get me wrong, i'll say about this again, so involved victims can understand me. There are two things in Eve that are really for free, the trust and immense stupidity. Geez yes, minerals and time are not.
Disruptive Durden	Posted - 2010.09.04 03:54:00 - [48] Wait, wait everyone you were send all the ISK to the wrong person you ****ing idiots.
Cobalt Sixty Caldari The Price of Darkness	Posted - 2010.09.04 03:55:00 - [49] Congratulations Bobby. Remember guys, at least he didn't blow up your Merlin.
Istvaan Shogaatsu Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.09.04 04:05:00 - [50] Now that's a corp theft. Congratulations!
Theophilas Amarr Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2010.09.04 04:24:00 - [51] That's what... 45K in real life cash monies? You had better **ing sell that for cash on the barrel head. Cause if you don't, well that's just a damn shame. Cut it up and funnel it into dummy alts paid for with GTC. SELL IT ALL. Then go to Bali or something and just live like a king, and all because of internet space monies... Goddamn I am jealous. Sig created by Trovarion. Thanks bruh!**
Hulkageddon	Posted - 2010.09.04 04:25:00 - [52] Hey Bobby, I'm tired of all the lag in Eve and leaving the game. Send me any amount of isk up to 850 billion and I'll send you back double. Read my bio for testimonials to how quickly I pay. Cheers, Hulk
TooFatToFish	Posted - 2010.09.04 04:29:00 - [53] **** week for one Bobby, lucrative week for another. Can I have monies for Aeon?
SunGod RA Endless Destruction	Posted - 2010.09.04 05:10:00 - [54] thread rewarded with FACTION VAMPIRE BUNNEY!!! . . ( \ ( \ ( ^,.,^) ( ( ")( ")
RAW23	Posted - 2010.09.04 06:29:00 - [55] Given that Bobby has made it clear many times that he has no ethical problems at all with scamming, this is hardly a surprise. If someone openly states that the only reason they don't scam is because they make good money from being perceived as honest, they are more or less telling you that come a certain point they will clean you out. Major fail on the part of the trustees for providing cover for Bobby rather than an early warning system for investors on this. Once security had been breached they should have been sending red flares up by walking away. Not saying I would have actually been able to bring myself to do so in their shoes; just that this is what they should have done.
Thawed Corpse	Posted - 2010.09.04 06:38:00 - [56] Some people are so dense. 1) Why the need to really have 4(!!!!!) Titan BPOs, like well wouldn't one be pretty useful by itself? Unless of course you are signing up to a crooked deal and you are about to get swindled for FOUR times as much! 2) Is any number of trustees enough? Cmon? Bad Bobby says he can't reveal alts, and yet you trust all the trustees, when at least one and possibly more were his alts or friends in some way. Way too obvious a hole in security. I probably wouldn't trust most trustees unless I was sleeping with them, and even then... 3) And lastly the giant poke in the eye to all the investors.... his name is Bad Bobby for crying out loud!! I bet he chose that particular alt (and name) on purpose just so he could crow more about what dupes you all were. Everyone got exactly what they deserved. But if it will ease everyone's mind, I'm about to start a large honest corporation. 1) We will purchase one and only 1 Titan BPO to make copies. 2) I will enlist the aid of 19 other trustees so that no one trustee controls more than 5% of the corporation. 3) My name is Thawed Corpse, so if you lose money in this deal, you can at least say I had a really original and honest name. 4) I'm honest, and just want to see all our investors make lots of ISK. Honestly! Honestly and Sincerely, Thawed Corpse.
Mme Pinkerton United Engineering Services	Posted - 2010.09.04 06:39:00 - [57] Originally by: RAW23 Major fail on the part of the trustees for providing cover for Bobby rather than an early warning system for investors on this. Once security had been breached they should have been sending red flares up by walking away. Once security had been breached... what does this mean in your opinion? Once Kazzac went largely MIA? Once cosmoray announced to resign from being a trustee? Once the director roles where stripped? that's sth which the trustees are almost guaranteed not to notice and that doesn't make much difference as long as the shares are still in place (you only need the director alts to protect against "hit by bus" for scam deterrence only the share holdings matter) Once the investors had decided to do sth potentially stupid? Once the new shares had been created it was already too late.
RAW23	Posted - 2010.09.04 06:49:00 - [58] Originally by: Mme Pinkerton Originally by: RAW23 Major fail on the part of the trustees for providing cover for Bobby rather than an early warning system for investors on this. Once security had been breached they should have been sending red flares up by walking away. Once security had been breached... what does this mean in your opinion? Once Kazzac went largely MIA? Once cosmoray announced to resign from being a trustee? Once the director roles where stripped? that's sth which the trustees are almost guaranteed not to notice and that doesn't make much difference as long as the shares are still in place (you only need the director alts to protect against "hit by bus" for scam deterrence only the share holdings matter) Once the investors had decided to do sth potentially stupid? Once the new shares had been created it was already too late. Once they were no longer able to secure the offering :-). If Kazzac was known to be MIA, even if Bobby was not known to have the shares, and if the trustees (as some have said) were advising against share creation on security grounds (that is, if they themselves saw a security problem) then they should have walked rather than remaining on-board in the hope that the security issue would not be exploited. Very tough call though and I wouldn't want to have been in their shoes.
Kushan Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2010.09.04 06:56:00 - [59] Oh my. wtb 1x T4u for posterity's sake
AtheistOfFail Caldari	Posted - 2010.09.04 06:57:00 - [60] Originally by: Kushan Oh my. wtb 1x T4u for posterity's sake Been trying all day. noone will sell me one. In like 2-3 years, they'll be worth more than the entire scam just for historic value
Scott McClellan Forum Posters Anonymous	Posted - 2010.09.04 07:09:00 - [61] Quote: Bad Bobby The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels I found it amusing, but never would have expected this. Also, buying T4U at 100 isk/share
Sepi Gamma Draconis Industries Eternus Imperium Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.04 07:10:00 - [62] i wonder if the guys in jita "i was the guy who robbed 75bill" was actually BB alt :) or even when will the first one of the scams be "i was the guy robbed 850bill"..
AtheistOfFail Caldari	Posted - 2010.09.04 07:12:00 - [63] Originally by: Sepi i wonder if the guys in jita "i was the guy who robbed 75bill" was actually BB alt :) or even when will the first one of the scams be "i was the guy robbed 850bill".. Yea. I can't wait to see the latest news tomorrow. Does the reported by part mean that's the person who sent in the news lead cause i'm pretty sure i was one of the first to spam it.
flakeys DRAMA Inc Blood Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.04 07:49:00 - [64] So BB aka Daddy Cool from now on ,what i would like to know was this your intention from the start or did the amount you could scam slowly started working on your greed?
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.04 07:56:00 - [65] Once upon a time, a guy of great experience met a guy of great money. The guy of great experience left with substantial money, the guy of great money left with substantial experience. *WHEN I ASKED EVEN THE GODS LIKE AMARR155 TO BE AUDITED WAS NOT FOR THE AUDITS BUT TO SEE HOW THEY REACT, THIS IS* AUDITING, NOT THE MERE PAPERWORK When people don't dare to question EBank at the apex of its success (like I did) or the various "godlings" out there, they are fools with money waiting to become just poor fools. Quote: Major fail on the part of the trustees for providing cover for Bobby rather than an early warning system for investors on this They fail more than you think. BB is not the only one who took advantage of game mechanics. Another major player has done so even if so far he did not turn this into theft. Quote: 2) Is any number of trustees enough? No. I never took a share (nor a say) in this IPO because: - BB never accepted an audit and this shows a particular inclination of state of mind. - BB risk due to his intelligence and social engineering skills was so high that no audit would bring in anything conclusive. - Since he created that too much colored and urgent last Utu bond I knew something was changing. - Chribba doing that strange quote "Quoted for the sake of quoting the post. Should it be needed for future verification." http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1341805&page=5#136 - Trustees are European Bruxelles clerks. Useless Boureaucracy that can be easily played left and right by someone smarter. Even those smart enough to act safely like Shar, are victims of a game where scamming, robbing, embezzling, dirty play, spying, poaching are supported and consistently shown as smart ways*. RAW23 can think any crusade he wants, the game we play is stacked in order to forcibly always have a victim <=> predator scenario where the victim never has functioning ways to avoid being so. Sure, sitting in a station for 7 years and dealing exclusively with your own wallet prevents risk. But playing this is not a MMO scenario, so people play the MMO and immediately become victims unless they avoid it. This is the weighting of the dice that in RL is muuuuuuch mitigated (for small people): to be surely victim unless you outsmart and outplay the predator. Net result: People will idiotically learn nothing. Now they won't give a penny to the poor guys starting an 1B bond but will all turn their dozens of billions to the next "MD god". Who without audit and arrogant take (lol doubt of ME?), will cream them again. Originally by:* flakeys So BB aka Daddy Cool from now on ,what i would like to know was this your intention from the start or did the amount you could scam slowly started working on your greed? It's part of a race. High level potential scammers of all sorts are trying to beat the record, therefore they honestly gather up enough to beat the record and then scam. If the scam desire clicks in since the beginning or only after a certain sum, who knows. We know the outcome though. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
flakeys DRAMA Inc Blood Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.04 08:05:00 - [66] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha If the scam desire clicks in since the beginning or only after a certain sum, who knows. We know the outcome though. But it is something BB can explain and i REALLY would like to hear from him wich of the two it was.Hell he could write a 15 page article about it and i would read every word of it.I am usually more interested in the reasoning then the actuall theft , no matter how big the amount.
Barkaial Starfinder Minmatar The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost	Posted - 2010.09.04 08:11:00 - [67] This would be really fun for some days, but.. one month with all that money, I think i'd get bored. CCP watch this ISK! Dont let anyone RMT =p
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles	Posted - 2010.09.04 09:00:00 - [68] Originally by: Proton Power Problem is the investors voted to create more voting shares after i said it was a bad idea. So 600 more shares were created, meaning bad bobby has same shares we do now. This seems to have been a crucial part of the process - I would like to know more about how this vote was proposed and how those concerned were persuaded to allow it through. As things stand, I'm inclined to suggest that the directors themselves are at least partly to blame. You could have created the new shares incrementally, removing the opportunity for anyone to seize an overall majority at any one step, or you could have just scaled down the number of shares owned by each active director. Why was neither of these more secure options used? Were people simply being lazy? Incidentally, I own 1 share of T4U. What am I bid for it? --- 34.4:1 mineral compression
Mme Pinkerton United Engineering Services	Posted - 2010.09.04 09:16:00 - [69] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha - Chribba doing that strange quote "Quoted for the sake of quoting the post. Should it be needed for future verification." http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1341805&page=5#136 Nothing strange about that statement. HYDRA (not Bad Bobby) had launched the bond, HYDRA seemed to collapse, so Chribba had to fixate the public list of investors to prevent it from any manipulations just in case the collateral would have to be sold.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.04 09:40:00 - [70] Originally by: Mme Pinkerton Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha - Chribba doing that strange quote "Quoted for the sake of quoting the post. Should it be needed for future verification." http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1341805&page=5#136 Nothing strange about that statement. HYDRA (not Bad Bobby) had launched the bond, HYDRA seemed to collapse, so Chribba had to fixate the public list of investors to prevent it from any manipulations just in case the collateral would have to be sold. It's a perturbation and when there are perturbations there are bound to be chain reversals. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
RAW23	Posted - 2010.09.04 09:59:00 - [71] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 04/09/2010 07:58:54 Quote: Major fail on the part of the trustees for providing cover for Bobby rather than an early warning system for investors on this They fail more than you think. BB is not the only one who took advantage of game mechanics. Another major player has done so even if so far he did not turn this into theft. Can we have some more info on this?
Caldari Citizen20090217	Posted - 2010.09.04 10:11:00 - [72] Did anyone else notice the similarities between the TITANS4U ipo scam and the one in the old nightfreeze scam story many years ago? Food for thought
Estel Arador	Posted - 2010.09.04 10:28:00 - [73] Originally by: Caldari Citizen20090217 Did anyone else notice the similarities between the TITANS4U ipo scam and the one in the old nightfreeze scam story many years ago? Food for thought Both involve a blueprint? Free jumpclone service\|1092 stations!
Nathan Jameson	Posted - 2010.09.04 10:35:00 - [74] slow hand clap I tip my hat to you, good sir. I'm not much for scams or scammers, but THAT was impressive.
Bad Bobby The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2010.09.04 10:36:00 - [75] Originally by: Estel Arador Originally by: Caldari Citizen20090217 Did anyone else notice the similarities between the TITANS4U ipo scam and the one in the old nightfreeze scam story many years ago? Food for thought Both involve a blueprint? That story was one of the things that inspired my playstyle, along with the GHSC and various tales of piracy.
Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.09.04 11:02:00 - [76] I never checked your financials, but how much isk did you repay investors in dividends since day 1? And grats for taking advantage of the thoughtlessness of investors, there were so many of them at least one should have noticed you having 600 extra shares to hand out could turn against them.
Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.09.04 11:05:00 - [77] Edited by: Ramingo on 04/09/2010 11:05:14 double post
Jekyl Eraser	Posted - 2010.09.04 11:08:00 - [78] you greedy fools, how do you think you can invest in a game without being scammed when in irl with much more serious punishments people(or even entire countries) get scammed constantly.
Jastra Gallente Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.04 11:12:00 - [79] Epic, sold my shares a month ago for profit and up a couple of dividend payments, so it's all good, hats off to you sir. Never invest what you cannot afford to lose people. _ _ _
Noferatu	Posted - 2010.09.04 11:16:00 - [80] Well Feck Me. Gotta love this game
Eelis Kiy Gallente Shadows Of The Federation	Posted - 2010.09.04 11:36:00 - [81] Originally by: Noferatu Gotta love this game ^^ ----------------------------- >>where the frack is my ship?<<
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.04 12:17:00 - [82] Quote: Can we have some more info on this? When I took position against the untouchables I was flamed to hell. And none defended me. When I audited, I was flamed and ridiculed and the whole meta-profession brought to the bin by a concerted effort off multiple people. And none defended me. When I offered to buy out a failed IPO (which I had no interest in, nor audited) to save investors money, I was ridiculed. When I started a major efforts at educating people at finance, I got greeted with "It's been forever since I've read a wall of text that had no useful content to it." So... no. Enjoy losing more dozens of billions. Talk is cheap, my payback is not. Quote: That story was one of the things that inspired my playstyle, along with the GHSC and various tales of piracy I struggle to understand why you achieved so much, just to thrash all your glory in a day. 850 billions or even 850 trillions are worthless when your name is in the mud forever, expecially in a game where the only valuable and lasting currency is fame and honor. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Estel Arador	Posted - 2010.09.04 12:25:00 - [83] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha When I took position against the untouchables I was flamed to hell. And none defended me. When I audited, I was flamed and ridiculed and the whole meta-profession brought to the bin by a concerted effort off multiple people. And none defended me. When I offered to buy out a failed IPO (which I had no interest in, nor audited) to save investors money, I was ridiculed. When I started a major efforts at educating people at finance, I got greeted with "It's been forever since I've read a wall of text that had no useful content to it." So... no. Enjoy losing more dozens of billions. Talk is cheap, my payback is not. Fear the wrath of the maligned philanthropist! It truly is a shame no one has recognised your genius so far. Please allow me to be the first to prostrate myself before you! Free jumpclone service\|1092 stations!
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.09.04 12:26:00 - [84] I guess there is a price on everyone.. The trustworthy people are becoming a seriously rare thing in this game.. In part I blame the missing mechanics. On a day like this I like my TMPI shares a lot.. They already paid out more dividends then their initial value, so I guess that makes it a true AAA share.. I dont think this is the end of the MD, but it does mean there is a serious dip in trust and interest in future projects.. Tycoon wannabe go here: SCC Lounge cocktails and Dreams.
nocSTANtine	Posted - 2010.09.04 12:46:00 - [85] Hat's off! But really this isn't down to Bob, if I had the chance to turn gate isk into $47K I would rip you all off in a heart beat! This is down to CCP, the scam's will come thick and fast while GTC/Plex's are in existence. This is supposed to be a game (fantasy!) when it has real world implications its crossed the line, especially when it condoned by CCP. Get rid of plex's and this sort of thing will pale, I'm all for scam's becuase if you fall for them more you fool you, but scam's shouldn't transverse game play into the real work. I know what your going to say ppl sell isk and items in the real world, well there is a leagal frame work that covers that which is supported but ccp Bob CCP
RAW23	Posted - 2010.09.04 12:53:00 - [86] Edited by: RAW23 on 04/09/2010 12:55:43 Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: Can we have some more info on this? When I took position against the untouchables I was flamed to hell. And none defended me. When I audited, I was flamed and ridiculed and the whole meta-profession brought to the bin by a concerted effort off multiple people. And none defended me. When I offered to buy out a failed IPO (which I had no interest in, nor audited) to save investors money, I was ridiculed. When I started a major efforts at educating people at finance, I got greeted with "It's been forever since I've read a wall of text that had no useful content to it." So... no. Enjoy losing more dozens of billions. Talk is cheap, my payback is not. So you know of a potential major risk to investors and you won't disclose it out of spite? You appear to be confusing the 'some' who have given you a hard time with the 'all' who you are now happy to see suffer. What happened to your much advertised moral code? Edit @Caleb - Isn't TMPI the second biggest shareholder in T4U?
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.09.04 12:56:00 - [87] I have to side with VV.. Sure EVE is just a game, but seriously there will always be people ingame that know who you are in RL, and what you did. Sure these might be close enough to not "rat" on you.. but seriously.. You have to live with this stigma the rest of your life.. Would anyone here ever trust someone with an action like this in their past? I have experienced first hand how your view change once a friend shows this side of their personality.. I dont understand why people sell their morales for isk or RL money.. Not that I dont understand the greed and lure, just the blemish you have to carry is not worth it imo.. Tycoon wannabe go here: SCC Lounge cocktails and Dreams.
Helicity Boson Amarr The Python Cartel. The Jerk Cartel	Posted - 2010.09.04 13:04:00 - [88] This is why you should only ever do business with me. Because I'm quite frankly the only honest piwate in EVE :P
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.04 13:09:00 - [89] Quote: What happened to your much advertised moral code? My moral code forbids me to disclose such information without seeing the "act" being made. IE Bad Bobby has been in the same situation of being able to take control. If he chose NOT to exercise it, he'd not be a scammer and talking about that in public would just ruin someone. Therefore first a trigger has to be pulled, then information would be released. Released if I was in charge of overseeing his business, if I was appointed to deal with it. But I am not, therefore privacy principle prevails and it's greatly eased by what I wrote above. EvE will never change until the few you could trust are pissed in face, while everyone go and worship the shiny future scammers. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Franga Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams	Posted - 2010.09.04 13:13:00 - [90] Bobby, is there any possible way I could get about 5bil from you? You know, just for kicks and whatever?
Ray McCormack Nordar Innovations.	Posted - 2010.09.04 13:21:00 - [91] Stop the enabling. The 'security' of this venture was flawed from the start, and yet the charade continued unabated allowing the investment to take on such a disproportionate size. The only purpose the directors served was to allow this to happen. ****'s sake guys, you ended up as eunuchs at a gang-bang and all to have your name in lights as trustworthy. I like most of you, but Jesus, learn from this. Follow My EBANK Chatter
Scott McClellan Forum Posters Anonymous	Posted - 2010.09.04 13:26:00 - [92] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Net result: People will idiotically learn nothing. Now they won't give a penny to the poor guys starting an 1B bond but will all turn their dozens of billions to the next "MD god". Who without audit and arrogant take (lol doubt of ME?), will cream them again. Sadly I think this will be the case. New offerings get shot down all the time by the people who got completely taken for a ride on this one. Granted there's a higher risk of a scam with the newer offerers, but it seems the risk was not even considered in the case of BB.
Bad Bobby The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2010.09.04 13:41:00 - [93] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha 850 billions or even 850 trillions are worthless when your name is in the mud forever I have been a pirate for most of my eve life. I hunt the weak and the foolish, I blow up their ships, pop their pods and take their stuff. That reputation is not harmed in the least by this scam. The reputation that I had for honesty and competence in business that was forged within MD was cashed in for 850b. I felt that to be the optimal exchange rate that I was going to get, with time and effort factored in. Also, the only "name in the mud" as far as this is concerned is Bad Bobby and other known alts. I have other names that are not so effected and have plenty of reputation to work with. It didn't take me long to build Bad Bobby and it didn't take me long to build the others. Once you learn the skills to build and sell reputation then it is those that are important, the reputation itself is just the commodity you trade in. Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha expecially in a game where the only valuable and lasting currency is fame and honor. If it's currency then it's there to be spent. The most valuable thing to me is the continued comradeship of those I fly with. That is something that I would never part with and would never consider currency. My recent actions have not harmed that in the least bit. Originally by: Caleb Ayrania there will always be people ingame that know who you are in RL, and what you did. Sure these might be close enough to not "rat" on you.. but seriously.. You have to live with this stigma the rest of your life.. Would anyone here ever trust someone with an action like this in their past? I have experienced first hand how your view change once a friend shows this side of their personality.. I dont understand why people sell their morales for isk or RL money.. Not that I dont understand the greed and lure, just the blemish you have to carry is not worth it imo.. Oh no! My Karma! Oh no! My RL reputation! Oh no! My interweb stalkers! How will my workmates and customers feel about the fact that I've hurt other players in a competitive PvP focused computer game in which I play a pirate? At the moment they are trying their best to stop rolling around with laughter. Maybe in time they will decide that I am evil and must be hunted down and made an example of... I doubt it somehow.
Bad Bobby The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2010.09.04 13:44:00 - [94] Originally by: Ramingo I never checked your financials, but how much isk did you repay investors in dividends since day 1?. Originally by: Bad Bobby Dividend history: 4185m (of 4500m profits) distributed on 2010.03.22 between 204,000 shares (2.05%) 1302m (of 1400m profits) distributed on 2010.03.28 between 204,000 shares (0.64%) 1692m (of 1820m profits) distributed on 2010.03.31 between 204,000 shares (0.83%) 5050m (of 5430m profits) distributed on 2010.04.21 between 204,000 shares (2.47%) 5208m (of 5600m profits) distributed on 2010.05.16 between 274,000 shares (1.90%) 6510m (of 7000m profits) distributed on 2010.08.01 between 342,000 shares (1.90%) 1488m (of 1600m profits) distributed on 2010.08.01 between 342,000 shares (0.43%) 7440m (of 8000m profits) distributed on 2010.08.09 between 342,000 shares (2.17%) 930m (of 1000m profits) distributed on 2010.08.14 between 342,000 shares (0.27%) 5952m (of 6400m profits) distributed on 2010.08.17 between 342,000 shares (1.74%)
Janya Rykayn	Posted - 2010.09.04 13:56:00 - [95] Edited by: Janya Rykayn on 04/09/2010 13:58:43 Quote: No one really thought about him scamming. Really? Nobody really thought about someone named Bad Bobby, who looks like a little boy who just robbed the candy store, scamming? Really? Every time I've seen Bad Bobby's name in connection with one of his investments, I wondered "What kind of person would be stupid enough to invest in a person named Bad Bobby?" I guess now I know. A scammer once told me, "It's not enough to just scam, you have to scam with a completely untrustworthy looking alt." Calling the alt Bad Bobby is even more humorous.
Bad Bobby The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2010.09.04 14:00:00 - [96] Originally by: Scott McClellan Granted there's a higher risk of a scam with the newer offerers, but it seems the risk was not even considered in the case of BB. This is a clear sign that it's time to cash in a reputation. When you have done enough that the majority of people trust you without question then there is little to gain from further developing that reputation. Then is the time to gather as much wealth as you can and run. Any time spent further building that reputation would be better spent on another alt ready for the next scam. For a person who takes pleasure in serving the community, like Chribba, this logic does not apply. Whereas for a person who takes pleasure in defeating others, like me, this is simply effective strategy.
Berikath	Posted - 2010.09.04 14:05:00 - [97] Originally by: Bad Bobby Originally by: Ramingo I never checked your financials, but how much isk did you repay investors in dividends since day 1?. Originally by: Bad Bobby Dividend history: 4185m (of 4500m profits) distributed on 2010.03.22 between 204,000 shares (2.05%) 1302m (of 1400m profits) distributed on 2010.03.28 between 204,000 shares (0.64%) 1692m (of 1820m profits) distributed on 2010.03.31 between 204,000 shares (0.83%) 5050m (of 5430m profits) distributed on 2010.04.21 between 204,000 shares (2.47%) 5208m (of 5600m profits) distributed on 2010.05.16 between 274,000 shares (1.90%) 6510m (of 7000m profits) distributed on 2010.08.01 between 342,000 shares (1.90%) 1488m (of 1600m profits) distributed on 2010.08.01 between 342,000 shares (0.43%) 7440m (of 8000m profits) distributed on 2010.08.09 between 342,000 shares (2.17%) 930m (of 1000m profits) distributed on 2010.08.14 between 342,000 shares (0.27%) 5952m (of 6400m profits) distributed on 2010.08.17 between 342,000 shares (1.74%) So.... 40 bil. How much of that got reinvested into your "expansions"? I must say.... I don't really approve, but I have to give you credit. Well played.
Cista2 Hydra Investment Fund	Posted - 2010.09.04 14:08:00 - [98] Originally by: Bad Bobby The most valuable thing to me is the continued comradeship of those I fly with. That's sweet. But why are you still here then? You are history, go fly with your friends. Your attention-seeking is getting tiresome very fast, stop clogging up my page 1, there are real businesses to attend to. ----------------------- "Signatures" chatroom / Hydra Fund / LLSE Stock Market
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.09.04 14:09:00 - [99] Originally by: Bad Bobby Also, the only "name in the mud" as far as this is concerned is Bad Bobby and other known alts. I have other names that are not so effected and have plenty of reputation to work with. It didn't take me long to build Bad Bobby and it didn't take me long to build the others. Once you learn the skills to build and sell reputation then it is those that are important, the reputation itself is just the commodity you trade in. For the next year audits will be required for any offering to make sure it's not a Bobby alt
Bad Bobby The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2010.09.04 14:13:00 - [100] Originally by: Janya Rykayn Quote: No one really thought about him scamming. Really? Nobody really thought about someone named Bad Bobby, who looks like a little boy who just robbed the candy store, scamming? Really? Every time I've seen Bad Bobby's name in connection with one of his investments, I wondered "What kind of person would be stupid enough to invest in a person named Bad Bobby?" I guess now I know. A scammer once told me, "It's not enough to just scam, you have to scam with a completely untrustworthy looking alt." Calling the alt Bad Bobby is even more humorous. Going from running a 9b isk bond directly into running a 200b+ IPO using a character that is a known pirate, with known scammer sympathies, who has never been audited, who to that point had never returned any invested isk, who has the name "Bad Bobby", who belongs to a corp called "The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels"... I call that a challenge. So if we say that I've just completed the game in hard mode... what does nightmare difficulty have in store for me? Originally by: Berikath Given this, do you expect that you will set up new and different scams with new and different characters, just for the fun of it? Of course. I need to improve my high score and do so under much harsher conditions. It's a game after all and you haven't completed the game until you've unlocked every feature at the hardest difficulty.
Janya Rykayn	Posted - 2010.09.04 14:15:00 - [101] Quote: what does nightmare difficulty have in store for me? Do it again, as Bad Bobby. THEN I'll be impressed.
Berikath	Posted - 2010.09.04 14:15:00 - [102] Originally by: Breaker77 Originally by: Bad Bobby Also, the only "name in the mud" as far as this is concerned is Bad Bobby and other known alts. I have other names that are not so effected and have plenty of reputation to work with. It didn't take me long to build Bad Bobby and it didn't take me long to build the others. Once you learn the skills to build and sell reputation then it is those that are important, the reputation itself is just the commodity you trade in. For the next year audits will be required for any offering to make sure it's not a Bobby alt .... he made 850 bil. It costs him all of $5 US to create a completely fresh account with no possible ties to tainted ones. He can then go out and buy a 5 year old character for basically pocket change for him. Audits to make sure they aren't his alts are pretty pointless.
Bad Bobby The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2010.09.04 14:16:00 - [103] Originally by: Cista2 Originally by: Bad Bobby The most valuable thing to me is the continued comradeship of those I fly with. That's sweet. But why are you still here then? You are history, go fly with your friends. Your attention-seeking is getting tiresome very fast, stop clogging up my page 1, there are real businesses to attend to. Ooh... handbags.
Llu	Posted - 2010.09.04 14:17:00 - [104] Edited by: Llu on 04/09/2010 14:17:55 Originally by: Bad Bobby So if we say that I've just completed the game in hard mode... what does nightmare difficulty have in store for me? Setting up a 10+ Billion non secured IPO successfully with the Bad Bobby character on the MD forum (doing it in game would be far to easy).
Bad Bobby The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2010.09.04 14:24:00 - [105] Originally by: Janya Rykayn Quote: what does nightmare difficulty have in store for me? Do it again, as Bad Bobby. THEN I'll be impressed. Please ladies and gentlemen give a warm MD welcome to the largest undefeated scammer, comming back from retirement for one last scam. Yes it's... Baaaaaaaad Bobby! No. That dog just won't hunt.
Mme Pinkerton United Engineering Services	Posted - 2010.09.04 14:26:00 - [106] Originally by: Bad Bobby Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha expecially in a game where the only valuable and lasting currency is fame and honor. If it's currency then it's there to be spent. QFT "fame" depreciates extremely fast in EVE (e.g. ask any newer players about Dark Shikari; don't kid yourself into believing that Akita would stay "famous" much longer then him if she were to stop posting) and is really not coupled with ethics - Istvaan Shogatsu is probably still one of the most famous EVE players despite his business being organized crime^^. Honor is always matter to personal interpretation - the newbie who gets blackmailed into paying the whole contents of his wallet to pirates and has to sing some silly song on EVE voice on top of that won't probably think of his aggressors as being honorable capsuleers. On the other hand the pirates themselves might think that their honor is the main thing setting them apart from other pirate corporations, as they are proud to honor their ransoms. That you happen to think of Bad Bobby's deed as unhonorable doesn't imply that everyone in EVE or even the majority of MD readers does share your opinion. For many people Bad Bobby's name might not be "in the mud" at all. The new EVE trailer advertises theft on an alliance level as a nifty feature of gameplay and a very large part of the playerbase (everyone except for CVA?) seems to think that the alliance/spy metagame carries no serious ethical problems. Yet, if you betray your corpmates or fellow alliance directors you usually betray people you have a much closer relationship with than with some more-or-less anonymous investors whose only interest is to leech the rewards of your work. One of the things that attracted me to stay with EVE past the free trial was reading the stories of EIB, GHSC and the Nightfreeze scam linked earlier in this thread. Scamming is IMO as much a cherished part of EVE as unconsentual pvp; this does not mean one shouldn't try to prevent people from being able to scam; but the constant problem of getting scammed adds a lot to MD which would be an extremely dull forum if investments ever could be "safe".
Thrasymachus TheSophist	Posted - 2010.09.04 14:29:00 - [107] Originally by: Bad Bobby Going from running a 9b isk bond directly into running a 200b+ IPO using a character that is a known pirate, with known scammer sympathies, who has never been audited, who to that point had never returned any invested isk, who has the name "Bad Bobby", who belongs to a corp called "The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels"... I call that a challenge. Less a challenge then simply a reflection of the pure idiocy that is this game's player base. People like to brag that Eve is for the "smart and mature playerbase". Hahah. Once again proving that standing on the sidelines is the only intelligent move ....
Spectre80 Caldari The Knights Templar R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.09.04 14:29:00 - [108] lol people still trusting money to someone elses hands in this game? i have never trusted anyone in this game and never will. best way to keep my iskies to myself.
Nobzy	Posted - 2010.09.04 14:31:00 - [109] [Sarcasm] Never thought this would happen, because all of the major meta business' who hold hundreads of billions usually always succeed![/Sarcasm] Congrats, well played! Also, what will you be doing with all that money? I hear only way to utilize vast sums of money is to invest.
Jackie Fisher Syrkos Technologies Joint Venture Conglomerate	Posted - 2010.09.04 14:32:00 - [110] Originally by: Bad Bobby No. That dog just won't hunt. Yet. Didn't Riethe manage it?
Agent 42 Gallente Forged Raptor TECH	Posted - 2010.09.04 14:53:00 - [111] Edited by: Agent 42 on 04/09/2010 14:53:17 Quote: lol people still trusting money to someone elses hands in this game? i have never trusted anyone in this game and never will. best way to keep my iskies to myself. Very Happy Never underestimate the power of greed and naivety. I love it though, a perfect reflection of the real world economy. People getting robbed blind with virtually no consequences for the crooks.
Alexandre VII	Posted - 2010.09.04 14:55:00 - [112] Originally by: Jackie Fisher Yet. Didn't Riethe manage it? I am NOT a Riethe fanboy, and not to take away from Bad Bobby here but seriously...if BB is playing on Hard, then Riethe plays on Nightmare. I would also argue that this in no way is the same calibur as TGHSC scam. That took engineering, cunning, and class. Again, not taking away from the 850b here....just giving my opinion on an internet spaceship game. I am entertained
Alexandre VII	Posted - 2010.09.04 15:02:00 - [113] I just thought of an original way for the story to live forever. BB...Put a 1 bil bounty on yourself at all times. ISK has no meaning anymore (for you), and you would not be giving it away to beggars (above posts). Plus it would make your PVP VERY unique.
Bad Bobby The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2010.09.04 15:05:00 - [114] Originally by: Alexandre VII if BB is playing on Hard, then Riethe plays on Nightmare. I'll ask him what he thinks of that. I have a great deal of respect for Riethe, even though I generally insist on spelling his name wrong whenever we talk. Originally by: Alexandre VII I would also argue that this in no way is the same calibur as TGHSC scam. That took engineering, cunning, and class. GHSC were pioneers. I can never truely better them because they got their first.
Bad Bobby The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2010.09.04 15:12:00 - [115] Originally by: Alexandre VII I just thought of an original way for the story to live forever. BB...Put a 1 bil bounty on yourself at all times. ISK has no meaning anymore (for you), and you would not be giving it away to beggars (above posts). Plus it would make your PVP VERY unique. Garmon, myself and others already fly about in silly expensive PvP ships that drop massive loot. It can help us get a fight. It can help boost our adrenaline. It can also get us blobbed to high heaven. We are still interested in fun PvP. Getting camped, blobbed and fleet bridged wherever we go isn't really what we are looking for. I don't think we need do anything else to paint targets on our foreheads.
Berikath	Posted - 2010.09.04 15:16:00 - [116] Originally by: Alexandre VII Originally by: Jackie Fisher Yet. Didn't Riethe manage it? I am NOT a Riethe fanboy, and not to take away from Bad Bobby here but seriously...if BB is playing on Hard, then Riethe plays on Nightmare. I would also argue that this in no way is the same calibur as TGHSC scam. That took engineering, cunning, and class. Again, not taking away from the 850b here....just giving my opinion on an internet spaceship game. I am entertained You could argue that simplicity and elegance is just as impressive as complexity and finesse. I doubt anyone can even approach BB's returns as far as isk/effort. I would be surprised if he made less than a billion ISK/hr, and I can't imagine he made less than 500 mil. Just that is really pretty mind-boggling.
Alexandre VII	Posted - 2010.09.04 15:18:00 - [117] Originally by: Bad Bobby GHSC were pioneers. I can never truely better them because they got their first. Much respect for your humility after pulling the biggest ISK scam in EVE history. ItÆs nice to see someone take a game as a game should be taken. Despite the fact that internet spaceships are serious business
Lord Arbalest Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.09.04 15:27:00 - [118] lol
Berikath	Posted - 2010.09.04 15:58:00 - [119] Another thought- from the IPO: Originally by: Titans 4U As it takes 4 months to copy a Titan BPC with a max skilled character using a POS lab and fitted with a copy time implant it will only be possible to generate profits every 4 months. In the first 8 months we will be producing 2 BPCs every 4 months. From month 8 we will be producing 4 BPCs every 4 months. Pricing for Titan BPCs has been on the increase of late with prices reaching as high as 20b for a copy. Given that nerfs, changes in demand, changes in supply, competition and other factors are likely to change the price we can expect to obtain for a Titan BPO it the profits from this venture will vary over time. It is reasonable to expect something in the region of 10b-20b for each copy for the time being, our target figure being 15b for a copy. Therefore we project our first 12 months to yield: 4 months in: 2 copies = 30b 8 months in: 2 copies = 30b 12 months in: 4 copies = 60b Total for first 12 months = 120b %age return for first 12 months = 45% Profits will be divided such that I will receive 6%, the trustees have been allocated a total of 4% and the shareholders will receive 90%. So far 3 of the 4 trustees have waived their right to claim their payment and their share will go to the shareholders instead. From your list of dividend payments, I figure that in a year you paid out on 42.75 bil profits, or 14.4%. Grats on having a return about a third of what you initially listed, and still being considered gold. Were you skimming also, or did you just make a whole lot less than you initially anticipated? Just wondering if the total should be bumped up to 900 or so, instead of 850.
Yakumo Smith Gallente No End To Infinity Fleetingly Finite	Posted - 2010.09.04 16:29:00 - [120] Invested nothing :) Saw this coming a mile off. I'm particularily impressed by CCP publisising the original venture on the news too, allowing non MD regulars to get in on the act (and thus lose isk) I suppose this must be my sig. I'll do something cool with it eventually.
Machete Visor	Posted - 2010.09.04 16:30:00 - [121] Really kind of surprised at the timidness of the response to this. If you have multiple billions to invest, then this either marks your exit to the game or you still have multiple billions to try to extract some revenge upon anyone/thing associated with this guy. Sure you'll never get the money back and there is no police to call - think that'd stop Tony sopranos if another gangster ripped him off? You guys should be searching / bribing etc etc to find anything that matters to this guy- maybe his recent antagonistic posts will stir some of that up. Heck he has already given a clue to what still matters to him. I'm sure more can be found. Only way you guys don't get some form of revenge is he converts to real money and walks, you quit or you don't try
Bad Bobby The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2010.09.04 16:31:00 - [122] Originally by: Berikath From your list of dividend payments, I figure that in a year you paid out on 42.75 bil profits, or 14.4%. Grats on having a return about a third of what you initially listed, and still being considered gold. Were you skimming also, or did you just make a whole lot less than you initially anticipated? Just wondering if the total should be bumped up to 900 or so, instead of 850. No, there was no skimming. I did however build a very good BPC reselling business off the back of the contacts, information and skills that I gained from the IPO and thus made many times more than my cut of T4U via an indirect route. The profits were much lower than projections due to the massive reduction in BPC sale price after the combination of the Titan rebalance, the introduction of heavy fleet lag and the outbreak of peace in many areas that would have otherwise seen profitable conflict. We were projecting at 10b-20b a copy and the reality was 5b-10b per copy, averaging at a little over 7b. The original plan was for 4 Titan BPOs and we only started with 3. The 4th and 5th BPOs were expansions. The dividend history I've published was accurate and complete.
Ray McCormack Nordar Innovations.	Posted - 2010.09.04 16:48:00 - [123] Originally by: Machete Visor Really kind of surprised at the timidness of the response to this. I suspect most of the high-rollers don't know yet. We still get the odd mail every now and then at lolbank saying how they've just come back to the game and are wondering where all their isk is. Follow My EBANK Chatter
Nathan Jameson	Posted - 2010.09.04 16:59:00 - [124] Originally by: Bad Bobby So if we say that I've just completed the game in hard mode... what does nightmare difficulty have in store for me? lol Diablo II reference ftw By the way, Bobby, I know it's been asked previously, but what does a guy in your position DO with 850 bil? Invest in an alliance? Buy bling ships? Money, like reputation, is pointless in and of itself until you spend it on something. I try to use my money and reputation to work on my fledgling corporation, but that's my personal goal. What do you plan to do with level of profit?
RAW23	Posted - 2010.09.04 17:00:00 - [125] Originally by: Bad Bobby Originally by: Berikath From your list of dividend payments, I figure that in a year you paid out on 42.75 bil profits, or 14.4%. Grats on having a return about a third of what you initially listed, and still being considered gold. Were you skimming also, or did you just make a whole lot less than you initially anticipated? Just wondering if the total should be bumped up to 900 or so, instead of 850. No, there was no skimming. I did however build a very good BPC reselling business off the back of the contacts, information and skills that I gained from the IPO and thus made many times more than my cut of T4U via an indirect route. The profits were much lower than projections due to the massive reduction in BPC sale price after the combination of the Titan rebalance, the introduction of heavy fleet lag and the outbreak of peace in many areas that would have otherwise seen profitable conflict. We were projecting at 10b-20b a copy and the reality was 5b-10b per copy, averaging at a little over 7b. The original plan was for 4 Titan BPOs and we only started with 3. The 4th and 5th BPOs were expansions. The dividend history I've published was accurate and complete. Out of interest, where did the rest of the 850bil come from? T4U and the other bonds still leave things short a few hundred bil don't they?
oil Double-L	Posted - 2010.09.04 17:08:00 - [126] corpthiefs and traitors are treated as hereoes nowadays because being a piece of dirt is considered cool. if somebody reacts like he should hell be ridiculed as idiot and sore loser. hiding behind "its only pixels" as always those people betray rl trust, real people not pixels. ccp supports this behavior as seen in their last trailer. on the other hand this here is a mmo people need to interact in a meaningful way besides blowing eachother up. it might backfire someday. just last week people were throwing billions into this particular scam. many more will pump billions into other scams. dont invest as long as there is no collateral or ingame support.
Bad Bobby The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2010.09.04 17:15:00 - [127] Originally by: Nathan Jameson Originally by: Bad Bobby So if we say that I've just completed the game in hard mode... what does nightmare difficulty have in store for me? lol Diablo II reference ftw By the way, Bobby, I know it's been asked previously, but what does a guy in your position DO with 850 bil? Invest in an alliance? Buy bling ships? Money, like reputation, is pointless in and of itself until you spend it on something. I try to use my money and reputation to work on my fledgling corporation, but that's my personal goal. What do you plan to do with level of profit? I've been the CEO of several corps. I've built corps up from nothing to be exceptional PvP outfits. I've been in alliance leadership both as the top dog and in lower tiers. I've FCed more fleets and gangs than is healthy. I'll continue to do the same but it can't be considered a goal anymore. Obviously I've hit a high score on the scammers league and I'll try to beat that score in the future. But with the isk... I'm giving some to my friends, I'm keeping more than enough to keep me well supplied for as many years of EVE as the servers have left to give, I'm buying some nice toys for myself and others and I'm helping out with HYDRA RELOADED & Genos Occidere's comittments to pay those responsible for our alliance tournament victory. I should still have some change left over from all that which should help us with the next alliance tournament, which we intend to win.
yarrmarr Trans-Solar Works Rooks and Kings	Posted - 2010.09.04 17:20:00 - [128] *congratulates Bad Bobby. (goes on holiday)
Dzil Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve OWN Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.04 17:23:00 - [129] Originally by: Machete Visor Really kind of surprised at the timidness of the response to this. If you have multiple billions to invest, then this either marks your exit to the game or you still have multiple billions to try to extract some revenge upon anyone/thing associated with this guy. Sure you'll never get the money back and there is no police to call - think that'd stop Tony sopranos if another gangster ripped him off? You guys should be searching / bribing etc etc to find anything that matters to this guy- maybe his recent antagonistic posts will stir some of that up. Heck he has already given a clue to what still matters to him. I'm sure more can be found. Only way you guys don't get some form of revenge is he converts to real money and walks, you quit or you don't try Bobby's a pvper with a near infinite money supply. What are they gonna do, pay people to go pvp with him? Cost him a bil or two in toys? The only thing that would hurt him at this point is someone infiltrating his band of hearties and breaking it up. You don't announce those kind of intentions on the forums ;) Retired from corp sales. Time to spend some of this on pretty explosions :)
Bad Bobby The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2010.09.04 17:24:00 - [130] Originally by: RAW23 Out of interest, where did the rest of the 850bil come from? T4U and the other bonds still leave things short a few hundred bil don't they? T4U raised 450b. I sold my shares so I got 450b from this. In theory the researched BPOs and the faction control tower are worth more than we paid so in reality T4U should be worth more than 450b. I got one last BPC from T4U before unlocking the BPOs, that sold. I borrowed a lot of isk from various people, some have publicly stated this and some have yet to come forward. I had a set of Supercarrier BPOs and a few T2 BPOs locked down for clients in my POS corps (you are familiar with the services I provided) and I have taken those. Total is roughly calculated at 850b, but it's probably a bit more depending on how you value the various BPOs. I go for NPC price on the supercap BPOs and recent market price on the T2 BPOs. Up to you if you think I am valuing high or low. I'm not going to call out all the people I scammed because I think that is a little cruel. If they want you to know who they are I'm sure they will say.
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.09.04 17:27:00 - [131] The ironies are just stacking up.. RL finacial failures. System collapsing.. CCP Trailer launch coinciding w BBs scam. If things werent so tragic in nature it would be great entertainment.. @BB I think the hard mode you should consider was doing something similar in RL.. then at least people cant diminish the action with it being only internet pixels.. Tycoon wannabe go here: SCC Lounge cocktails and Dreams.
Utemetsu Caldari	Posted - 2010.09.04 17:31:00 - [132] I just posted a show with a hefty portion dedicated to Titans 4 U. Listen here. Please re-size your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
Ambo Mortis Angelus	Posted - 2010.09.04 17:33:00 - [133] facepalm Never invested in this cos too many things were slightly wrong. Would never have imagined the 'trustees' could have got it so terribly wrong though. --------------------------------------
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.09.04 17:46:00 - [134] Originally by: Ambo facepalm Never invested in this cos too many things were slightly wrong. Would never have imagined the 'trustees' could have got it so terribly wrong though. A bit of food for thought.. Personal relations and contribution to the game experience seem to be the only real "TRUST" makers.. The only way EVE players can show their intentions is what they are putting on the table. In short what are they risking and what are they potentially loosing. What would people like Ambo here loose if he did something like that.. The legitemacy of all the work he put in his "product". Same goes for all other types of content creators. People like Chribba, even Shar Tegral imho (grumpy gamer factor aside). My point is it all comes down to integrity. Just like in real life the value is not just in the numbers of a business, its more and mainly in the composition of people and the "reputation/brand values".. Sure some can laugh these things off as "just a game", and pixels have no karma, but really its all the same. As Cista pointed out in quite harsh tones if you can do and act in these ways in a game, chances are you will be able to in real life and vice versa.. I dont really care much about what BB did, the guilt is with the investors for disregarding the warning signs, and not knowing the difference betwen trustworthy people and legit businesses.. I have claimed earlier that if people arent willing to come out from hiding behind the interwebs I personally dont trust them, and even then its not safe. I met many EVE players I would not hesitate investing my trust in. In the future if MD has any that might become more a rule of thumb. This is not about "I know where you live" it more about if it needs a mask its most likely hiding something.. Tycoon wannabe go here: SCC Lounge cocktails and Dreams.
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2010.09.04 18:06:00 - [135] Edited by: SencneS on 04/09/2010 18:08:11 Originally by: Bad Bobby Please ladies and gentlemen give a warm MD welcome to the largest undefeated scammer, comming back from retirement for one last scam. Yes it's... Baaaaaaaad Bobby! No. That dog just won't hunt. No.... Ricdic still holds the trophy.. between 1.2 and 1.45 Trillion.. Nice try though.. The only difference is Ricdic got away with $5,000 of real life money and probably hundreds of billions over the cause of the years and still holds probably 50-100B is ISK and assets locked away, you got away with difficult to sell assets.. Sorry you'll have to create a new alt and try again to score that title. Amarr for Life
Ray McCormack Nordar Innovations.	Posted - 2010.09.04 18:10:00 - [136] Originally by: SencneS Senc, MSN. Follow My EBANK Chatter
Dzil Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve OWN Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.04 18:11:00 - [137] Originally by: SencneS Edited by: SencneS on 04/09/2010 18:08:11 Originally by: Bad Bobby Please ladies and gentlemen give a warm MD welcome to the largest undefeated scammer, comming back from retirement for one last scam. Yes it's... Baaaaaaaad Bobby! No. That dog just won't hunt. No.... Ricdic still holds the trophy.. between 1.2 and 1.45 Trillion.. Nice try though.. The only difference is Ricdic got away with $5,000 of real life money and probably hundreds of billions over the cause of the years and still holds probably 50-100B is ISK and assets locked away, you got away with difficult to sell assets.. Sorry you'll have to create a new alt and try again to score that title. You assume, of course, said alt isn't already created. What's the creation date of Aurum (the "supersecret" alt corp)? Retired from corp sales. Time to spend some of this on pretty explosions :)
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.09.04 18:40:00 - [138] For all of you people that believe in Karma, tell it to a stillborn baby. Nuff said on that imaginary crap. As far as reality is concerned, BB my hat is off to you. PT Barnum would be proud. You are "The Merovingian" of Eveonline without a doubt. When you say "fanboi" try to picture a fat man doing burlesque with 2 big ass fans that say CCP on one and HTFU on the other. Because that dude is me.
Sepi Gamma Draconis Industries Eternus Imperium Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.04 18:51:00 - [139] Originally by: Cipher Jones For all of you people that believe in Karma, tell it to a stillborn baby. Nuff said on that imaginary crap. can i jsut say you seem to forget that karma within hinduism and buddism carries on through rebirth so taking your statement a little further you would realise that a stillborn could well be living his bad karma from previous life, before being reborn again into a slightly less worse case :) buddist link Ok so i dont believe in it :) but just going against your moot point
Sun Ra Euphoria Released	Posted - 2010.09.04 20:21:00 - [140] BB never really hid who he was, not really surprising is it AHUH AHUH AHUH AHUH
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.04 20:30:00 - [141] Quote: The new EVE trailer advertises theft on an alliance level as a nifty feature of gameplay and a very large part of the playerbase (everyone except for CVA?) seems to think that the alliance/spy metagame carries no serious ethical problems A large amount of people in EvE and in RL learn and teach about smearing everything into some trendy relativism where after all, everything is fine in the eyes of the beholder. I don't personally subscribe to that. After all, in a rational and civilized reality he'd be marked as thief and imprisoned, with no boast nor glory. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Quadrantid	Posted - 2010.09.04 20:49:00 - [142] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha After all, in a rational and civilized reality he'd be marked as thief and imprisoned, with no boast nor glory. Every society creates its own morality and rationality. While the one we live in in reality would likely punish him harshly, if he was caught, that isn't to say that is the only way a cilivised society could work. Even in our "civilised" society, people still worship the memory of gangsters, and laud criminals. What were the Krays, for example? They were lowlife, thieving scum, murderers and bullies, but a huge number of people idolised them and thought they were great. Society creates its own rules. A woman who put a cat in a bin in the UK recently was (rightly, in my opinion) loathed and derided for it. At the same time, there are still people who tout Raul Moat as a hero. It depresses me. I'm drifting off point here. As I said, society creates its own rules. In Eve, it seems to me, we're part of a much more amoral and frontier spirited society than that we spend our every day lives. In that society, there is still glamour and glory to be had in theft and unpleasantness. That's part of the interest and the fun in this sandbox, isn't it? I don't like the fact I got scammed, but I take my hat off to the scammer for pulling it off. That's partly 'cos I don't take this game all that seriously - but it's still interesting to me. If someone in real life had scammed me out of all my worldy goods, I'd be feeling far, far more stupid, and far more vengeful than I am on here. It's interesting how the two realities differ like that :D Hmmn -- this has turned into far more of a train of consciousness than I'd intended :D I just wanted to point out that different societies develop different moralities, and different views on what is laudable and what is loathesome. As a brit, I grew up on tales of Robin Hood -- a national hero, but a big scale crook. Even in civilised society, so long as your steal and rob with the right swagger people love you. So I'm not surprised it's so in Eve :D
Rumple Fourskin	Posted - 2010.09.04 20:56:00 - [143] Bravo bad bobby Bravo You have won eve.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.04 22:42:00 - [144] Quote: I'm drifting off point here. As I said, society creates its own rules Society can believe what they want, in fact it's forever in chaos and confusion. I'll stick with my provincial, outdated and possibly healty principles whatever the media-driven society picks as today's hero. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Machete Visor	Posted - 2010.09.04 23:08:00 - [145] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: I'm drifting off point here. As I said, society creates its own rules No it doesnt. The idea that everything is relative and manufactured ignores continuity of experience, among other things If society creates it's own rules, create a rule you can fly and jump out a window
Subrogate	Posted - 2010.09.04 23:09:00 - [146] Point missed here is that the people obviously trusted you BB and were mates too, now what could have been a longterm way to build cash has become you stealing, even if a game the reality is that people spend time and money to play this - CCP could not care as long as the cash wheel keeps turning - does not mean you have to be a skank. Karma always comes along so have no worries about you getting yours :).
Yakumo Smith Gallente No End To Infinity Fleetingly Finite	Posted - 2010.09.04 23:13:00 - [147] Originally by: Yakumo Smith Invested nothing :) Saw this coming a mile off. I'm particularily impressed by CCP publisising the original venture on the news too, allowing non MD regulars to get in on the act (and thus lose isk) For the Mystry dude convoing me re the news article. Linkage to the news article I suppose this must be my sig. I'll do something cool with it eventually.
Awesome Possum Gallente Isk Relocation Services Stratagem.	Posted - 2010.09.04 23:22:00 - [148] Originally by: AtheistOfFail PS: Threw this into the ISD news leads cause it might just be my lucky day to be on the first page. PSS: I'm getting my merlin. I swear. fyi, its "p.p.s." ps stands for post-script. :) ♥ Wreck Disposal Services
Quadrantid	Posted - 2010.09.04 23:26:00 - [149] Edited by: Quadrantid on 04/09/2010 23:26:03 Originally by: Machete Visor Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha I'm drifting off point here. As I said, society creates its own rules No it doesnt. The idea that everything is relative and manufactured ignores continuity of experience, among other things If society creates it's own rules, create a rule you can fly and jump out a window I was talking the virtual rules of morality, rather than anything about the theories of physics. As an astronomer, I'm much more au-fait with the physical side of things ;) If I said that gravity worked upwards, and jumped, it would still pull me down... If I said that duping anyone was fine and moral, and in fact beneficial to them (because it teaches them a valuable life lesson), and was able to persuade the rest of my society to follow that way of thinking, then from the point of view of that society, such an act would be perfectly reasonable. Making a specious physical argument doesn't devalue what my rambling words were meant to convey :) Personally, I think what this guy has done is reprehensible, from my own moral standpoint. I can't understand the mindset of someone who would want to scam people of their cash, and more than I can understand the mind set of someone who wants to suicide gank newbies, or someone who thinks the Krays were wonderful. But I think the general morality in the Eve Universe seems to be that if you commit a crime with enough style, then you'll get fame and glory even while those who are hit hard by it (like myself!) QQ and fume. In fact, from what I've seen since I started playing again, the more QQing you get, and the more tears you extra, the more fame and glory you get. That's what I meant about society making its own rules. I don't have to like it, but I acknowledge it. I'm just glad it's just a game :D
Kamchuk Caldari New Eden Interfacing	Posted - 2010.09.04 23:33:00 - [150] 2 things i have to say 1. VERY wel played. Even if it turned out badly for everyone involved apart from Bobby, Thats some seriously sneaky stuff there. Well done. 2. Can i have 5 bil please :D
Machete Visor	Posted - 2010.09.05 00:31:00 - [151] Originally by: Quadrantid Edited by: Quadrantid on 04/09/2010 23:26:03 Originally by: Machete Visor Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha I'm drifting off point here. As I said, society creates its own rules No it doesnt. The idea that everything is relative and manufactured ignores continuity of experience, among other things If society creates it's own rules, create a rule you can fly and jump out a window I was talking the virtual rules of morality, rather than anything about the theories of physics. As an astronomer, I'm much more au-fait with the physical side of things ;) If I said that gravity worked upwards, and jumped, it would still pull me down... If I said that duping anyone was fine and moral, and in fact beneficial to them (because it teaches them a valuable life lesson), and was able to persuade the rest of my society to follow that way of thinking, then from the point of view of that society, such an act would be perfectly reasonable. Making a specious physical argument doesn't devalue what my rambling words were meant to convey :) Personally, I think what this guy has done is reprehensible, from my own moral standpoint. I can't understand the mindset of someone who would want to scam people of their cash, and more than I can understand the mind set of someone who wants to suicide gank newbies, or someone who thinks the Krays were wonderful. But I think the general morality in the Eve Universe seems to be that if you commit a crime with enough style, then you'll get fame and glory even while those who are hit hard by it (like myself!) QQ and fume. In fact, from what I've seen since I started playing again, the more QQing you get, and the more tears you extra, the more fame and glory you get. That's what I meant about society making its own rules. I don't have to like it, but I acknowledge it. I'm just glad it's just a game :D isnt all morality - including the one in question here - based in physics? unravel it far enough
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking	Posted - 2010.09.05 00:59:00 - [152] Originally by: Bad Bobby Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha 850 billions or even 850 trillions are worthless when your name is in the mud forever I have been a pirate for most of my eve life. I hunt the weak and the foolish, I blow up their ships, pop their pods and take their stuff. That reputation is not harmed in the least by this scam. The reputation that I had for honesty and competence in business that was forged within MD was cashed in for 850b. I felt that to be the optimal exchange rate that I was going to get, with time and effort factored in. Also, the only "name in the mud" as far as this is concerned is Bad Bobby and other known alts. I have other names that are not so effected and have plenty of reputation to work with. It didn't take me long to build Bad Bobby and it didn't take me long to build the others. Once you learn the skills to build and sell reputation then it is those that are important, the reputation itself is just the commodity you trade in. Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha expecially in a game where the only valuable and lasting currency is fame and honor. If it's currency then it's there to be spent. The most valuable thing to me is the continued comradeship of those I fly with. That is something that I would never part with and would never consider currency. My recent actions have not harmed that in the least bit. Originally by: Caleb Ayrania there will always be people ingame that know who you are in RL, and what you did. Sure these might be close enough to not "rat" on you.. but seriously.. You have to live with this stigma the rest of your life.. Would anyone here ever trust someone with an action like this in their past? I have experienced first hand how your view change once a friend shows this side of their personality.. I dont understand why people sell their morales for isk or RL money.. Not that I dont understand the greed and lure, just the blemish you have to carry is not worth it imo.. Oh no! My Karma! Oh no! My RL reputation! Oh no! My interweb stalkers! How will my workmates and customers feel about the fact that I've hurt other players in a competitive PvP focused computer game in which I play a pirate? At the moment they are trying their best to stop rolling around with laughter. Maybe in time they will decide that I am evil and must be hunted down and made an example of... I doubt it somehow. These posts, and your responses, demonstrate pretty well that some of us are just playing the game in a completely different way...and that this concept is a bit hard to grasp for everyone else.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.09.05 01:27:00 - [153] Like we would trust a single word that comes out of your mouth. You are a goon. Shoo!
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.05 01:28:00 - [154] Quote: These posts, and your responses, demonstrate pretty well that some of us are just playing the game in a completely different way...and that this concept is a bit hard to grasp for everyone else It always lies on the subtle line dividing what's "the game" and what's "interaction with real human beings". You indeed fckthroat a faceless internet individual who gave you full support and dedication, but it's still an human person. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read* http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking	Posted - 2010.09.05 02:04:00 - [155] Edited by: corestwo on 05/09/2010 02:04:46 Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: These posts, and your responses, demonstrate pretty well that some of us are just playing the game in a completely different way...and that this concept is a bit hard to grasp for everyone else It always lies on the subtle line dividing what's "the game" and what's "interaction with real human beings". You indeed fckthroat a faceless internet individual who gave you full support and dedication, but it's still an human person. And this is a game where, as you put it, fckthroating someone else is not only a valid course of "interaction with a real human being", but one that is allowed and even endorsed by the developers. So what's your point again? Originally by: Ji Sama Like we would trust a single word that comes out of your mouth. You are a goon. Shoo! Sorry you lost 20b (or so?) in this. No, really.
Victor Valka Caldari Endoxa Corporation	Posted - 2010.09.05 04:15:00 - [156] I'm impressed. (Not that it's worth much.) If you ever manage to spend it all, let us know. Originally by: Spaztick You are not outnumbered, you are in a target-rich environment.
mechtech SRS Industries SRS.	Posted - 2010.09.05 04:54:00 - [157] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha It always lies on the subtle line dividing what's "the game" and what's "interaction with real human beings". You indeed fckthroat a faceless internet individual who gave you full support and dedication, but it's still an human person. I think you're missing an integral part of online gaming. You're never screwing over another human person, your character* is screwing over someone else's character. Role playing is a big part of any MMORPG, including eve. While your character is obviously a reflection of your RL persona (I would guess an amplified altruistic version), you have to realize that it's just as common for people to be playing an evil character. I do think it's possible to break through the character and actually become acquaintances, or even friends with other eve players, but it takes time. If you haven't talked with someone on voice comms, I don't know if you can ever be sure if you've broken through their "character" (very very few people keep up their eve persona on voice comms). We're all connected through a mouse/keyboard, 2 screens, and an internet connection, true person to person connection is something that doesn't happen over a few nights at a bar like in RL, it takes months in these circumstances. So basically the point I'm making is that all interactions are character to character, and a characters actions don't always reflect on the people behind the screen. Again, you obviously play your character like your RL personality (can't be sure though, I don't know you ), but people pay $15 a month to have fun, and that often entails crazy over the top antics (which is why scams on the MD forum are such a draw to people who want a good gaming challenge, such as Bad Bobby).
HazyShade	Posted - 2010.09.05 04:57:00 - [158] Spoiler Alert!! . . . . . . . . . . All the people you are working with have hidden agendas as well (stealing your isk) Surprise!
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.09.05 05:09:00 - [159] Originally by: Proton Power Copy from AC post in T4U Thread *IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT* ALL TRADING OF T4U SHARES HAS BEEN SUSPENDED. DO NOT BUY/SELL ANY T4U SHARES. At 06:54 eve time on 2010.09.03, 5 votes were started to unlock the 5 titan bpo's in the "super secret corp". The director alts were kicked out the previous day supposedly to "keep any of you from grabbing the 600 votes that were created for the new directors". This is either a really mean test of the system or Bad Bobby has decided to cut and run. More info to come as it is available. Bobby Booby bubby. what have you done. lol.
Lillith Starfire	Posted - 2010.09.05 05:56:00 - [160] Edited by: Lillith Starfire on 05/09/2010 05:56:11 Originally by: mechtech RP Stuff Oh please, that old chestnut? But it wasn't me honey! It was my character having cybersex! I wasn't personally involved in any way at all! The fact is majority of people don't play this as a RPG and character sits doing nothing without the human involved. People ARE affected personally by what happens. If they weren't they wouldn't even get any enjoyment out of it. You guys got played by a jerk, end of story.
Foolish Bob Caldari The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2010.09.05 06:40:00 - [161] Allow me to make a reasoned response to this investments have risk you might not get back your stake it's rule number one ----------- I am me. I am not the corp I've joined nor the alliance I fly in. I'm also not a unique and special snowflake. Everything I say should be taken in that context.
Polly Prissypantz Dingleberry Appreciation Society	Posted - 2010.09.05 07:17:00 - [162] Originally by: Lillith Starfire Edited by: Lillith Starfire on 05/09/2010 05:56:11 Originally by: mechtech RP Stuff Oh please, that old chestnut? But it wasn't me honey! It was my character having cybersex! I wasn't personally involved in any way at all! The fact is majority of people don't play this as a RPG and character sits doing nothing without the human involved. People ARE affected personally by what happens. If they weren't they wouldn't even get any enjoyment out of it. You guys got played by a jerk, end of story. People that play this game do so with the implicit (and often explicit - just watch the latest trailer) understanding that they could get scammed or ganked or any other end-result that is not their desire or within their control. These same people then willingly go and do something as inherently risky is investing in markets that have little to no in-game controls over them. Maybe they know the risks, maybe they don't, maybe they don't care. While suggesting that a person that ganks, griefs or scams in-game is a direct reflection of their real personality may give you a warm gooey feeling inside, it doesn't reflect any sort of decision based on fact, it is merely your emotion-driven opinion. That, of course, doesn't necessarily mean you're wrong. Bobby may very well be a jerk in real life, but you can't make that judgement based on his actions in a game where the entire premise is to escape reality through whatever actions the player see's fit. There are three kinds of people in Eve: * Those that do care about losing their stuff, and probably would feel pretty crap if they did lose their stuff, but accept that risk regardless. * Those that view it as strictly "just a game" and don't particularly care when they lose. * And those who can't seperate a game from reality, who shouldn't be playing the damn game in the first place.
AtheistOfFail Caldari	Posted - 2010.09.05 07:26:00 - [163] T4U may be a scam but someone sent me 450 shares
Martosh Toma Gallente Fraction Investment	Posted - 2010.09.05 07:36:00 - [164] what this changed for me, would I have met BB in game. Last week in some lowsec hub and would I have been offered the option to pay ransom. Then, assuming the request was reasonebly priced, I would have payed and I would have expected to get out safely. Now I expect no ransom offer, nor would I expect to get out if an offer was made and paid.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.05 07:56:00 - [165] Quote: And this is a game where, as you put it, fckthroating someone else is not only a valid course of "interaction with a real human being", but one that is allowed and even endorsed by the developers. So what's your point again? The point is that even if it's supported blah blah, does not mean we have to clap and smile at those who do it. What I see is that if you try raise an 1B you get flamed to hell and demanded audits and sh!t. If you are someone vouching for scamming you raise 1 almost trillion with no check, then you scam it and people still bow and clap at it. Now, maybe this is completely natural into your mindset, but for others it's not. Maybe this comes off the fact that part of my country are exactly of such mindset to prize thieves, embezzlers and generally "smart ones" and this is fracking annoying when you keep seing it in RL again and again and slammed in your face and you honest people shown as you were the idiots. Quote:* So basically the point I'm making is that all interactions are character to character, and a characters actions don't always reflect on the people behind the screen This is one of those long term urban legends. I don't buy for a single second that a compete jerk in game is a fantastic and sociable guy in RL. The most succesful actors and players, after all, are those who play a role but you can see their real exceptional persona through their acting. There's no 100% opaqueness and separation between the role and the person. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Foolish Bob Caldari The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2010.09.05 08:31:00 - [166] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha This is one of those long term urban legends. I don't buy for a single second that a compete jerk in game is a fantastic and sociable guy in RL. The most succesful actors and players, after all, are those who play a role but you can see their real exceptional persona through their acting. There's no 100% opaqueness and separation between the role and the person. your reason here sir is critically flawed in giving this game more worth than it ought to have in the context of events most and rightly grave, you think that we give more of our most private self to this mere play. No matter that it is for us a most adroit and pleasing diversion, do not imbue this work of art with more than can be due - for over and above all real life will always hold our thrall ----------- I am me. I am not the corp I've joined nor the alliance I fly in. I'm also not a unique and special snowflake. Everything I say should be taken in that context.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.09.05 08:53:00 - [167] Originally by: corestwo Originally by: Ji Sama Like we would trust a single word that comes out of your mouth. You are a goon. Shoo! Sorry you lost 20b (or so?) in this. No, really. No U!
Mme Pinkerton United Engineering Services	Posted - 2010.09.05 08:56:00 - [168] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha stuff Do you subscribe to the idea that moral values are being defined through social contracts? (or) Do you think they exist as some virtue of their own? Do you think they are universally pre-existing in some way (heavenly decree, cosmic harmony, ...), dependent on being human ("right" and "wrong" founded in biology/evolution, ...) or just matters of individual preference (i.e. no "objective" right and wrong that would be common between humans)? What am I trying to get at here? I am confused by you being on the one hand an extreme advocate of the "cold, harsh universe" idea of EVE, being afaik a supporter of non-consentual pvp, having been involved in the alliance game without too much quarrels (the spy feeding your fleet intel is betraying the comrades who trust him, too), ... while on the other hand condemning scams in MD in the most extreme manner possible. The canonical argument for non-consentual pvp in EVE is one that comes down to the notion of "right" and "wrong" being defined by some social contract specific to the game world. It is ok to destroy/steal your stuff even if you explicitly tell me you don't want to fight, because by logging in to EVE you have agreed that this is nothing bad in here. Killing each other in internet spaceships is a feature of the game after all. Now on the other hand betrayal of trust is being marketed as a feature of the game, too - yet for some reason you seem to think that the redefining of right/wrong through the contract of game rules does not apply in this case. If that's just your personal opinion that's all fine and dandy but if this is supposed to be part of some coherent and universal moral system it requires imo some further explanation.
Fat Uncle	Posted - 2010.09.05 09:32:00 - [169] Originally by: Martosh Toma what this changed for me, would I have met BB in game. Last week in some lowsec hub and would I have been offered the option to pay ransom. Then, assuming the request was reasonebly priced, I would have payed and I would have expected to get out safely. Now I expect no ransom offer, nor would I expect to get out if an offer was made and paid. Chance to ransom people <-> 850b. Tough choice, not sure which would bring more profit.
Martosh Toma Gallente Fraction Investment	Posted - 2010.09.05 09:50:00 - [170] What I meant is that nothing much changed, except maybe I trust eve personalities a little less. I guess the only way to invest in eve is by fully secured loans. We already had a problem where a business could not fail or it would be labeled a scam. Now trustees are not to blame if they fail to secure that with which they are entrusted. Instead of increasing the tools we have to enable investment and a secondary market we are killing it. I might be a bit bleak in my outlook on things right now but, I guess investing in eve is like betting with someone he will return you more than you just placed on the bet. Using a third party only adds another person to the list of people that could run off with your bet.
Jonny 101 draketrain	Posted - 2010.09.05 10:32:00 - [171] Well well well Bobby, what is there to say? When I was first told about the 850b scam (I've been inactive for a while, just re-activated last night), I figured "oh, another legit guy goes bad when faced with temptation, how...utterly common place and boring". Until of course I read this thread. You have created a work of art, I am impressed, I am in awe of the sheer beauty of this scam. This must definately rank as one of the great scams of all time, not due to the isk invovled, but simply because of the style and style gentlemen, is everything! Congratulations Bobby, this is one to be proud of. Signature needs to be more EVE related. Zymurgist
Bad Bobby The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2010.09.05 11:51:00 - [172] Originally by: corestwo Bobby, was this (as I suspect) planned all along, from the first tiny reputation building venture onward? Yes and no. I kept my options open. I always ran the business legitimately and I would have been happy to continue doing so for much longer. I would have expanded further with expectation that the end of the fleet lag issue (soonTM) would have brought more profits to the IPO. I never had any plans for giving back the isk though. At best I would have run the IPO "forever". That said I always kept an eye on oppertunities for taking the whole thing. Taking one BPO or the isk for one expansion never interested me, but the possibility that a crisis with the trustees could occur or an oppertunity for creating a controlling majority of shares in the Super Sekrit Corp could occur (as it did) was always kept in mind. Hence the fact I didn't give Cosmo his shares, which was easy to deny but still brought me closer to a majority. If the vote to create 600 shares had been stopped by the trustees I would have just said "right you are, we'll do this differently" and business would have continued as usual. The public relations and social engineering aspects of the venture did not require me to make a firm decision on my intent, although I suppose saying "I never had any plans for giving back the isk" was pretty close to "I planned to scam". Building the reputation, overcomming the issues that came with that, managing public perception of me and bringing a large section of the MD investor population to the point where they stopped thinking clearly with respect to my trustworthyness was equally valid as both a legitimate businessman seeking large volumes of isk at low rates or as a scammer trying to make a big score. Whichever way you look at it, it was a really interesting and challenging project for me that delivered in every way I could have hoped for. I really enjoyed both the legitimate venture and execution of the final heist. Thanks to you all for giving me that oppertunity. I think it's time to let this story fade into the night, so I'm going to lay off posting. I'll come back for any interesting questions but I'm not going to strut about MD rubbing people's noses in it. So long and thanks for all the fish!
Kapila Parthalan	Posted - 2010.09.05 13:04:00 - [173] Early on, I think after the titan changes and the long lack of dividends, you asked investors whether they wanted to liquidate or continue (page 45). Since you had no desire to return the isk, what would you have done if at some time most shareholders had wanted to liquidate? Assuming the trustees had done their job properly, you would have had access to no more than one BPO at a time, plus a small amount of cash.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.05 13:16:00 - [174] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 05/09/2010 13:25:25 Quote: Do you subscribe to the idea that moral values are being defined through social contracts? I don't. I don't think the modern mercification and bartering of everything including "moral values" is something I'd put myself to follow. This is daily teached everywhere, but I am happy to be the outlier of the huge groupthink. I am also i.e. one of the few idiots left who believe in being >>> having, see how obsolete I am and proud of it. Quote: while on the other hand condemning scams in MD in the most extreme manner possible. I am not condemning scams or other game features. 99% of the scams I don't even blink an eye about. I am despising (different term) how brilliant, utterly brilliant people that could have an amazing future decide to cash in and thrash their accrued community results. Finally, I care for MD activities and community, I am not a sicko bent on general destruction "for the luls" and this is why I try writing articles and do the little I can to "help". And then, when MD seems finally recovering, BHAM! The next huge black storm to set MD community back in passive mode and weeks of stupid trollish posts at every new honest attempt of investment. Edit: to better explain my P.O.V.: I am a builder, I'd naively fit well in Start Trek idea of bringing humanity to a new and positive future beyond their limits. Therefore I don't see too well those running against this and proposing ONCE AGAIN the decaying aspect of our race and it's ages old habits. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Dariah Stardweller Gallente Gung-Ho	Posted - 2010.09.05 13:26:00 - [175] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha And then, when MD seems finally recovering, BHAM! The next huge black storm to set MD community back in passive mode and weeks of stupid trollish posts at every new honest attempt of investment. That just proves the system isn't up to it. If scamming is possible, it will happen. I choose to simply avoid those investments and dabble on the market myself. As long as their are no system changes that make safe investing possible this circle will never end. Inappropriate signature removed. Zymurgist
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.05 13:41:00 - [176] Originally by: Dariah Stardweller Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha And then, when MD seems finally recovering, BHAM! The next huge black storm to set MD community back in passive mode and weeks of stupid trollish posts at every new honest attempt of investment. That just proves the system isn't up to it. If scamming is possible, it will happen. I choose to simply avoid those investments and dabble on the market myself. As long as their are no system changes that make safe investing possible this circle will never end. You might want to have a look at my latest thread about RL technical analysis. At the end there's posted several tips about how to invest and still stay profitable, in a scammers universe. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking	Posted - 2010.09.05 13:48:00 - [177] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Edit: to better explain my P.O.V.: I am a builder, I'd naively fit well in Start Trek idea of bringing humanity to a new and positive future beyond their limits. Therefore I don't see too well those running against this and proposing ONCE AGAIN the decaying aspect of our race and it's ages old habits. Edit2: I just typed on SCC Lounge (replying to other stuff) me in a nutshell. I am the completely romantic person in a post-illuminism world. Nothing wrong with that. I think the naive portion more comes in when you start expecting that everyone else thinks the same way. Maybe you actually don't, but it kinda sounds like it from some of your earlier responses! Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Originally by: Dariah Stardweller Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha And then, when MD seems finally recovering, BHAM! The next huge black storm to set MD community back in passive mode and weeks of stupid trollish posts at every new honest attempt of investment. That just proves the system isn't up to it. If scamming is possible, it will happen. I choose to simply avoid those investments and dabble on the market myself. As long as their are no system changes that make safe investing possible this circle will never end. You might want to have a look at my latest thread about RL technical analysis. At the end there's posted several tips about how to invest and still stay profitable, in a scammers universe. Or you could just...dabble in the market yourself, make as much money, and be safer. Half the reason scams like this continue to happen is because people are overly infatuated with the concept of the "secondary market" and so are willing to accept relatively tiny returns in these big, neat ventures for...whatever reason...when they could have made the same 2% that Bobby had been paying per month by flipping Trit. This really just goes to prove my point - some of us are playing different games. I just don't get it.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.05 13:56:00 - [178] Quote: Or you could just...dabble in the market yourself, make as much money, and be safer. Half the reason scams like this continue to happen is because people are overly infatuated with the concept of the "secondary market" and so are willing to accept relatively tiny returns in these big, neat ventures for...whatever reason...when they could have made the same 2% that Bobby had been paying per month by flipping Trit. This really just goes to prove my point - some of us are playing different games. I just don't get it. This is the barrier. We don't put so much effort for the 2%. The 2% is a minor consequence of building a community that breathes, that socializes, that progresses where it counts, that is in humanity and not just in "objects". Others have fun or even pride at destroying this, and while I can see reasons / mental models for doing so, I can't say I am fine with it. It's philosophy vs philosophy. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Dariah Stardweller Gallente Gung-Ho	Posted - 2010.09.05 14:37:00 - [179] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha You might want to have a look at my latest thread about RL technical analysis. At the end there's posted several tips about how to invest and still stay profitable, in a scammers universe. I bet there are some good tips but in the end, if you are going to give away any ammount of control over your isk/assets, you WILL run into scams in time. It's a risk you take, and nobody is twisting your arm. The fact that ppl are willing to give up control is the reason scammers are attracted. You facilitate their stomping grounds. If you abandon the absolute safety of your personal wallet, don't come complaining when it all goes to hell. It's like saying you are going to look for a fight in low sec and then come complaining when you get blown up. Inappropriate signature removed. Zymurgist
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.09.05 15:05:00 - [180] Quote: I always ran the business legitimately and I would have been happy to continue doing so for much longer. You mean as long as you didnt fail cascade your alliance and had that stroking your (fill in the blank). Nice haul though bro :)
WHATSYOURPLEASURE	Posted - 2010.09.05 15:50:00 - [181] I love when this topic comes up. I always have a simple question: If who you are in here isn't anything like you are out there, why do you enjoy being bad in here? The only difference in here is that no one can hold you accountable. It's evil without restraint or punishment. It's not the horrifying evil of monster movies; it's the evil of those who view the rest of us as things and objects. A banal evil that isn't personal but, far worse, impersonal. Rationalizing your acts as just a game is how you soothe that part of your conscience that still lives out there. There's a very simple test of whether you've done right or wrong--go to all of the people you know out there and tell them what you've done. Tell your mother and father; tell your neighbors; tell your boss. You won't. We all know you won't. Because then they would wonder what you're capable of. They'll wonder whether you might do something out there too. Video games have given us all something we've never had before, an ethical laboratory. A place where we can give into that part of ourselves that is capable of evil. For all my good acts in life, I've also given into evil here in the lab. It was exciting and titillating for a moment, but in the end it made me feel bad and I gave it up quickly. I'm capable of empathy. There is a fine line to walk in here between playing a role and being a sociopath. Losec pirates, just a role. Alliance spies, just a role. But con man, corp thief and the like, well, it's just a game it's true, but it's not a role if you enjoy the feeling. Thats all you.
Cobalt Sixty Caldari The Price of Darkness	Posted - 2010.09.05 16:27:00 - [182] Originally by: SencneS Edited by: SencneS on 04/09/2010 18:08:11 Originally by: Bad Bobby Please ladies and gentlemen give a warm MD welcome to the largest undefeated scammer, comming back from retirement for one last scam. Yes it's... Baaaaaaaad Bobby! No. That dog just won't hunt. No.... Ricdic still holds the trophy.. between 1.2 and 1.45 Trillion.. Nice try though.. The only difference is Ricdic got away with $5,000 of real life money and probably hundreds of billions over the cause of the years and still holds probably 50-100B is ISK and assets locked away, you got away with difficult to sell assets.. Sorry you'll have to create a new alt and try again to score that title. I guess we'll have to wait for how many accounts you and the rest of the crew allow yourselves to write-off before we'll see your own tally? Originally by: WHATSYOURPLEASURE stuff Yes, yes, now show us on the ledger where the bad man touched your assets
Dariah Stardweller Gallente Gung-Ho	Posted - 2010.09.05 16:50:00 - [183] Originally by: WHATSYOURPLEASURE I love when this topic comes up. I always have a simple question: If who you are in here isn't anything like you are out there, why do you enjoy being bad in here? The only difference in here is that no one can hold you accountable. It's evil without restraint or punishment. It's not the horrifying evil of monster movies; it's the evil of those who view the rest of us as things and objects. A banal evil that isn't personal but, far worse, impersonal. Rationalizing your acts as just a game is how you soothe that part of your conscience that still lives out there. There's a very simple test of whether you've done right or wrong--go to all of the people you know out there and tell them what you've done. Tell your mother and father; tell your neighbors; tell your boss. You won't. We all know you won't. Because then they would wonder what you're capable of. They'll wonder whether you might do something out there too. Video games have given us all something we've never had before, an ethical laboratory. A place where we can give into that part of ourselves that is capable of evil. For all my good acts in life, I've also given into evil here in the lab. It was exciting and titillating for a moment, but in the end it made me feel bad and I gave it up quickly. I'm capable of empathy. There is a fine line to walk in here between playing a role and being a sociopath. Losec pirates, just a role. Alliance spies, just a role. But con man, corp thief and the like, well, it's just a game it's true, but it's not a role if you enjoy the feeling. Thats all you. Well, it IS just a game. I'm not into the scamming stuff myself but it is part of EVE and it is meant to be a part of it. And playing the evil SOB in a game is something we've all done and enjoy right? Inappropriate signature removed. Zymurgist
Dr Lebroi	Posted - 2010.09.05 16:57:00 - [184] I like Bad Bobby, he knows how to play the game and he's had some fun with it. Don't be mean to him because he's better than you, learn from his example and prosper. Look at the Aussie cricket team, mean SOBs on the pitch, top guys to have a beer with after the match. It's all PVP and y'all got pewed!
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.05 17:23:00 - [185] Quote: I bet there are some good tips but in the end, if you are going to give away any ammount of control over your isk/assets, you WILL run into scams in time. It's a risk you take, and nobody is twisting your arm Actually reading what I linked would avoid you this wrong reply. There are not the usual bland tips, but a risk management article that assumes scams will happen. Quote: And playing the evil SOB in a game is something we've all done and enjoy right? For what regards me, never in > 30 years of gaming. Quote: It's all PVP and y'all got pewed! Not all, just the gullibles. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Ari Chu	Posted - 2010.09.05 17:40:00 - [186] Originally by: WHATSYOURPLEASURE I love when this topic comes up. I always have a simple question: If who you are in here isn't anything like you are out there, why do you enjoy being bad in here? The only difference in here is that no one can hold you accountable. It's evil without restraint or punishment. It's not the horrifying evil of monster movies; it's the evil of those who view the rest of us as things and objects. A banal evil that isn't personal but, far worse, impersonal. Rationalizing your acts as just a game is how you soothe that part of your conscience that still lives out there. There's a very simple test of whether you've done right or wrong--go to all of the people you know out there and tell them what you've done. Tell your mother and father; tell your neighbors; tell your boss. You won't. We all know you won't. Because then they would wonder what you're capable of. They'll wonder whether you might do something out there too. Video games have given us all something we've never had before, an ethical laboratory. A place where we can give into that part of ourselves that is capable of evil. For all my good acts in life, I've also given into evil here in the lab. It was exciting and titillating for a moment, but in the end it made me feel bad and I gave it up quickly. I'm capable of empathy. There is a fine line to walk in here between playing a role and being a sociopath. Losec pirates, just a role. Alliance spies, just a role. But con man, corp thief and the like, well, it's just a game it's true, but it's not a role if you enjoy the feeling. Thats all you. Demonstratably false, as anyone who has every played DnD knows. How many adventure parties were run as "Evil"? Probably just as many as run "Good". Now, arguably, people are evil by nature... so it goes to show that people really are acting out their true natures in games - but that doesn't mean your point is correct, as your point is that people will do those evil things and not tell their friends and family. No, if they already discuss EVE with their friends/family - then they are very very very likely to talk about their "evil" exploits. More likely, they just don't discuss EVE in the first place - or so peripherally that talking about the specifics of a scam are too far off the radar. --- "The Galaxy is only as big as you make it." - presumably Eve Game Designers.
Dariah Stardweller Gallente Gung-Ho	Posted - 2010.09.05 17:42:00 - [187] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: And playing the evil SOB in a game is something we've all done and enjoy right? For what regards me, never in > 30 years of gaming. Never shot a civilian in the face in a FPS? Never stab allies in the back in an RTS when it suited you? Tis all part of the game... Inappropriate signature removed. Zymurgist
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.05 17:54:00 - [188] Originally by: Dariah Stardweller Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: And playing the evil SOB in a game is something we've all done and enjoy right? For what regards me, never in > 30 years of gaming. Never shot a civilian in the face in a FPS? Never stab allies in the back in an RTS when it suited you? Tis all part of the game... No I did not shoot civilans and did not betray allies. I engaged in PvP in many games including EvE, but (my) PvP happens in PvP areas where people who enter are "fair game" and accept to pew pew. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.09.05 17:59:00 - [189] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha I engaged in PvP in many games including EvE, but (my) PvP happens in PvP areas where people who enter are "fair game" and accept to pew pew. In EVE, people are "fair game" when they click the login button. Mining, trading, combat, hell even trying to use public science/production slots is all PvP.
Dariah Stardweller Gallente Gung-Ho	Posted - 2010.09.05 18:02:00 - [190] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha No I did not shoot civilans and did not betray allies. I engaged in PvP in many games including EvE, but (my) PvP happens in PvP areas where people who enter are "fair game" and accept to pew pew. Ehm, the entire universe of EVE is a PvP area. It is this way BY DESIGN. When you undock, you accept that you can get pewed, when you set up market orders, you accept that you can get undercut etc etc. If you can't live with that, you should not do it. Inappropriate signature removed. Zymurgist
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.05 18:03:00 - [191] Originally by: Breaker77 Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha I engaged in PvP in many games including EvE, but (my) PvP happens in PvP areas where people who enter are "fair game" and accept to pew pew. In EVE, people are "fair game" when they click the login button. Mining, trading, combat, hell even trying to use public science/production slots is all PvP. Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha ... but (my) PvP happens... Bolded for emphasis on subjectivity. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Carine Parnasse	Posted - 2010.09.05 18:37:00 - [192] The most interesting factor for me in MD is the scammers, the ways they game the system, and the way new controls are added. Simply saying "Scammers are bad and you should feel bad" is just boring, and won't help you stop the next 'trusted' player taking your investment. Quote: The only difference in here is that no one can hold you accountable No, the difference here is no acts have any consequence. Saying that pvp is ok but scamming is bad is just you justifying your own actions, but either way you have 'harmed' someone. Quote: Losec pirates, just a role. Alliance spies, just a role. So someone comes into lowsec, you ransom thier ship, and forcibly take thier money, it's ok. Someone lies to you, betrays your trust to take your money, then it becomes evil? Then why is building trust just to destroy an alliance ok? And if you scam on MD to get funds for your alliance, is it ok again? That is so weak. You've honestly never played any game where you are against other players? Do you feel shocked everytime you play Risk when your allies turn on you?
Erin EVEsurance	Posted - 2010.09.05 18:38:00 - [193] Goes to show, if something is too good to be true, it probably is.
Shinde Kudasai Mercurial Freight	Posted - 2010.09.05 19:17:00 - [194] Originally by: Carine Parnasse ...the ways they game the system... I grant I'm a bit of an outsider to the "pretending eve=wallstreet" part of the game, but "gaming the system" seems to usually consist of saying "I am good at making money. Give me money and I'll make you some. Accepting ISK...........NOW!" And then people lining up to send isk. More people line up to send larger amounts if someone posts after the OP saying "Yep, he's good at maing money" I have to agree with what corestwo said above. It's the idea of investing that keeps people investing. It doesn't seem to have any relation to the non-forum part of the game at all. Mercurial Freight - get it hauled!
Rumple Fourskin	Posted - 2010.09.05 19:26:00 - [195] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWBfLOZ2CjQ I think this is fitting
SunGod RA Endless Destruction	Posted - 2010.09.05 20:26:00 - [196] Originally by: WHATSYOURPLEASURE I love when this topic comes up. I always have a simple question: If who you are in here isn't anything like you are out there, why do you enjoy being bad in here? The only difference in here is that no one can hold you accountable. It's evil without restraint or punishment. It's not the horrifying evil of monster movies; it's the evil of those who view the rest of us as things and objects. A banal evil that isn't personal but, far worse, impersonal. Rationalizing your acts as just a game is how you soothe that part of your conscience that still lives out there. There's a very simple test of whether you've done right or wrong--go to all of the people you know out there and tell them what you've done. Tell your mother and father; tell your neighbors; tell your boss. You won't. We all know you won't. Because then they would wonder what you're capable of. They'll wonder whether you might do something out there too. Video games have given us all something we've never had before, an ethical laboratory. A place where we can give into that part of ourselves that is capable of evil. For all my good acts in life, I've also given into evil here in the lab. It was exciting and titillating for a moment, but in the end it made me feel bad and I gave it up quickly. I'm capable of empathy. There is a fine line to walk in here between playing a role and being a sociopath. Losec pirates, just a role. Alliance spies, just a role. But con man, corp thief and the like, well, it's just a game it's true, but it's not a role if you enjoy the feeling. Thats all you. m8. when/if you play chess, and someone DESTROYS your queen because you left it undefended in some momentary lapse of attention and/or because you implicitely trusted your opponent do not enact such a crippling move, do you flip out and launch into a moral/ethical tirade about the evils of severing such a delicately woven couple and how sad the king will be now without his queen to light up his day and how much more human it would have been to take out the bishop instead (a suspected child molester in real-life, so must be the same in-game!) and how a person who does such a thing is a monster and a sociopath and probably eats puppies as between-game snacks and is a terrorist and a destroyer of life and precious family values? because, if so my good sir, you could be the perfect chess partner!
Carine Parnasse	Posted - 2010.09.05 23:47:00 - [197] Originally by: Shinde Kudasai I have to agree with what corestwo said above. It's the idea of investing that keeps people investing. It doesn't seem to have any relation to the non-forum part of the game at all. Exactly, I have invested in about all of 2 things, and none in years, and I fully expect to never make a dime from MD (especially with the ~600mil I have lost so far) but I still read it whenever I have a chance. The dissonance between all this talk of trustees's, security, ROI's, and other SRS BSNS at the start of a thread, and then this delicious period after a scam... I can't get enough. Soon MD will be reformed, never will a name be security enough, VV and other young idealists will maintain standards... until the next scam.
Dtail	Posted - 2010.09.05 23:49:00 - [198] Originally by: WHATSYOURPLEASURE I love when this topic comes up. I always have a simple question: If who you are in here isn't anything like you are out there, why do you enjoy being bad in here? The only difference in here is that no one can hold you accountable. It's evil without restraint or punishment. It's not the horrifying evil of monster movies; it's the evil of those who view the rest of us as things and objects. A banal evil that isn't personal but, far worse, impersonal. Rationalizing your acts as just a game is how you soothe that part of your conscience that still lives out there. There's a very simple test of whether you've done right or wrong--go to all of the people you know out there and tell them what you've done. Tell your mother and father; tell your neighbors; tell your boss. You won't. We all know you won't. Because then they would wonder what you're capable of. They'll wonder whether you might do something out there too. Video games have given us all something we've never had before, an ethical laboratory. A place where we can give into that part of ourselves that is capable of evil. For all my good acts in life, I've also given into evil here in the lab. It was exciting and titillating for a moment, but in the end it made me feel bad and I gave it up quickly. I'm capable of empathy. There is a fine line to walk in here between playing a role and being a sociopath. Losec pirates, just a role. Alliance spies, just a role. But con man, corp thief and the like, well, it's just a game it's true, but it's not a role if you enjoy the feeling. Thats all you. And you sir, are just pure selfish hypocrite. If your mind would not be full of "me me me me me" you would see where this post fails. And there have someone allready pointed it out.
Bill Alt	Posted - 2010.09.06 01:04:00 - [199] Originally by: WHATSYOURPLEASURE I love when this topic comes up. I always have a simple question: If who you are in here isn't anything like you are out there, why do you enjoy being bad in here? The only difference in here is that no one can hold you accountable. It's evil without restraint or punishment. It's not the horrifying evil of monster movies; it's the evil of those who view the rest of us as things and objects. A banal evil that isn't personal but, far worse, impersonal. Rationalizing your acts as just a game is how you soothe that part of your conscience that still lives out there. There's a very simple test of whether you've done right or wrong--go to all of the people you know out there and tell them what you've done. Tell your mother and father; tell your neighbors; tell your boss. You won't. We all know you won't. Because then they would wonder what you're capable of. They'll wonder whether you might do something out there too. Video games have given us all something we've never had before, an ethical laboratory. A place where we can give into that part of ourselves that is capable of evil. For all my good acts in life, I've also given into evil here in the lab. It was exciting and titillating for a moment, but in the end it made me feel bad and I gave it up quickly. I'm capable of empathy. There is a fine line to walk in here between playing a role and being a sociopath. Losec pirates, just a role. Alliance spies, just a role. But con man, corp thief and the like, well, it's just a game it's true, but it's not a role if you enjoy the feeling. Thats all you. I'll be one of the few that largely agrees with you. I'll also mention that unlike DnD or chess, isk has real value. Because isk does have real value, both in terms of currency and in time/effort, the betrayal of trust has meaning as well. Still, a part of this game. I trust no one.
Bill Alt	Posted - 2010.09.06 01:32:00 - [200] So what is the CCP exchange rate for 850 billion isk? About $46,000 USD at the moment? Just a game though, so there's no moral issues here at all. :)
KaarBaak Minmatar Hell's Librarians Imperium Directive	Posted - 2010.09.06 02:38:00 - [201] Originally by: Bill Alt So what is the CCP exchange rate for 850 billion isk? About $46,000 USD at the moment? Just a game though, so there's no moral issues here at all. :) I believe the CCP exchange rate for 850b isk is $0.00 KB =vinur allra manna MetaGaming
Ash Donai	Posted - 2010.09.06 02:53:00 - [202] Originally by: Bad Bobby I'm not going to call out all the people I scammed because I think that is a little cruel. If they want you to know who they are I'm sure they will say. Read the above again and laugh with me. That's the prime example on how obvious it is that the take was way overestimated. "Oh noes, I just stole 850b but I am too soft at heart to say who I stole it from. /sob". Please, obvious ego inflaters are obvious. Good for you that you grabbed some ISK from the naive, though I would have just said it's a trillion ISK, since the numbers are made up (as is the ISK itself, it's not real after all) it really would have sounded better to just call it a full trillion than selling yourself short.
WHATSYOURPLEASURE	Posted - 2010.09.06 03:00:00 - [203] Before the quote fest that follows, an important point-- my statements don't completely apply to games in which your opponent is an AI. One cannot have empathy for a machine (yet). However, I personally don't play games like Grand Theft Auto either. I still don't understand what gaming pleasure there is to be derived from beating prostitutes to death. If you're laughing in RL while you do it, I ask the same question--what is it that you enjoy about it? From whence do you derive your pleasure? Originally by: Carine Parnasse So someone comes into lowsec... Note the sentence before that. It's a very fine line. It's a matter of intent. Losec pirates are playing the role of brigands and operate in an area where such activity is expected. Hisec pirates are much closer to and perhaps over the line. Lots of room for debate there. Alliance spies are acting on behalf of their own alliance, not simply taking joy in betrayal. Again though, very fine line. I'm of the opinion they are like RL spies. The enemy will see them as traitors, their own side will see them as heroes. But the force and focus of their actions isn't based solely on the misery of others. At least, that would be the argument I would make. I'm encouraged that, while you appear to disagree, you are willing to discuss it. Originally by: Dariah Stardweller reasonable statement Its part of what is allowed, yes. Does that change anything? No. I will keep asking, again and again, from whence do you derive your pleasure? What is it about **ing people over that you enjoy? I have given in to my baser urges, but I clearly stated that, no, I didn't enjoy it. Originally by:** Ari Chu DnD I'm not sure what your point is. My point is not that they would do it and not tell friends and family. My point is that not telling them is proof that they know they have done something wrong. I direct you to my introductory comment. Its a bit twisted to play true evil in D&D, but in D&D your opponent is not a real person, only a figment of the DM's imagination. Having played D&D for many years (I remember getting that first blue box), I don't recall any evil party relishing the commission of truly evil acts. Typically it is merely a symbolic representation of blue team/red team rendered through the game mechanics. I would definitely question the motivations of a group of players who enacted ** or the ritual sacrifice of children. Are you telling me that you would willingly sit and play with a group vividly describing a scene? I doubt it. As you yourself have stated, "people really are acting out their true natures in games." Originally by:** SunGod RA Chess Chess isn't EVE. It's nothing like it. Not even close. I once had a college roommate who cheated to win a game of chess. I finished the game, kept my distance, and after the semester ended, I never spoke to him again. It was just a game. He wasn't a pedophile or a murderer. But, it said a lot about him that he would cheat to win a game. Originally by: Dtail lunacy I have no clue WTF you are talking about. Please translate your statement into a semblance of coherence. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- My point is simple--if Bad Bobby or anyone else (I'm looking at you Ricdic. I know you're still in the game. You're far too vain to have given it up.) truly believed that what they had done was "just a game" they'd do what Larkonis did. Put your name and identity into the public domain. Let the Human Resource department of your current or next job plug your name into Google and read about your exploits. Then we'll see whether you have the true force of your convictions. I can't help but wonder why "Richard" never revealed his identity after the EBank scandal. I doubt he paid his taxes on the money. So possibly he's a RL criminal too. See how easy it is to step over the line?
Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2010.09.06 03:03:00 - [204] Originally by: Bad Bobby The reputation that I had for honesty and competence in business that was forged within MD was cashed in for 850b. I felt that to be the optimal exchange rate that I was going to get, with time and effort factored in. Good job playing the game correctly. Was hoping this was going to be a scam, glad to see it paid out well.
SunGod RA Endless Destruction	Posted - 2010.09.06 03:20:00 - [205] Originally by: Ash Donai Read the above again and laugh with me. That's the prime example on how obvious it is that the take was way overestimated. "Oh noes, I just stole 850b but I am too soft at heart to say who I stole it from. /sob". Please, obvious ego inflaters are obvious. Good for you that you grabbed some ISK from the naive, though I would have just said it's a trillion ISK, since the numbers are made up (as is the ISK itself, it's not real after all) it really would have sounded better to just call it a full trillion than selling yourself short. /( )\ ( =^^=) ( (")(") DEVILKITTY DETEX JELLUS btw how do you cheat at chess? 2 entities, one game board.. wat? :perplex:
Xereyn	Posted - 2010.09.06 05:40:00 - [206] Originally by: WHATSYOURPLEASURE I love when this topic comes up. I always have a simple question: If who you are in here isn't anything like you are out there, why do you enjoy being bad in here? Right. You know, in real life, you don't go around destroying people OR things just because you can, and you recognise that individuals have value. So why, when you play chess, do you toss away pawns like they don't matter? In real life, you probably don't set out to bankrupt everyone you know. So why, when you play Monopoly, do you try to take all their money? Why don't you cut them a break on the rent? In real life, you wouldn't shoot someone in the face... so why do you do that in Half-Life? Or Team Fortress 2? In TF2 that's a REAL PERSON behind the character, even... I don't scam. It's not my style, it gives me a weird crawly feeling to think about doing that kind of thing even in a game. But I have a tendency to over-empathise and I know it. I also have a station warehouse filled with all the people I've come across in missions, etc - hundreds of marines, militants, exotic dancers, janitors, you name it. Why a station warehouse? Well, there got to be too many of them - I calculated that between all the people, and all the food, water, and entertainment supplies I'd put in there with them, the station container they had been kept in would have too little space per person for comfort. I can't be mean to my imaginary pixel people. My housemate teases me about how I have an EVE dollhouse. I'm not going to be able to bring myself to scam real pixel people - i.e. other players. On the other hand, I've played Diplomacy, and in Diplomacy I've traded on friendship to make betraying someone easier, I've double-crossed and triple-crossed and I've been double-crossed - including by a friend who, in actual real life, I would trust absolutely, in any situation, with my life, my wallet, or my children. I would have no qualms about giving him every password I possess and signatory powers to my bank accounts. In a game like Diplomacy? I wouldn't trust him with a damp sponge for fear he'd find some way to knife me with it anyway. Games and reality are different, and people play games according to the rules they perceive in them - or they cheat, sure, but the thing is, in EVE, scamming isn't cheating. Cheating is immoral. If someone is hacking, exploiting, buying isk illegally, any of that stuff - then they're scum and we should all, collectively, spit on their frozen corpses. If they're not breaking the actual rules OF THE GAME, then crying about morality is just an excuse because either you don't have the skirt to do what they do, or you do, but they did it better, and either way: you're just bitter.
T'Amber Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2010.09.06 06:02:00 - [207] share sets with three names are always a scam. [SoE:X]
William Pierce	Posted - 2010.09.06 07:33:00 - [208] Originally by: Bad Bobby The reputation that I had for honesty and competence in business that was forged within MD was cashed in for 850b. Well put. Enjoy your ISK .
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.06 08:31:00 - [209] Quote: VV and other young idealists will maintain standards... until the next scam. We'd still be at stone age without idealists. Anyway I am 40 so I don't exactly qualify as young. Also, I posted a series of articles about how to manage and spread risk even in the light of possible scams. If this qualifies as idealism, I suppose most RL traders and investors are idealists. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Dtail	Posted - 2010.09.06 09:24:00 - [210] Originally by: WHATSYOURPLEASURE I have no clue WTF you are talking about. Please translate your statement into a semblance of coherence. Justifying act of war becose you don't take pleasure from it but you and your friends can gain something from it doesn't make it eny less act of war. It doesn't turn to be noble act at eny given point. That thin line what you are talking isn't thin line if you aren't full of your self.
thebarry SRS Industries SRS.	Posted - 2010.09.06 09:38:00 - [211] eveyrowne drink soem beer with me!~ whooooooo1!1
RaTTuS BIG Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.09.06 10:28:00 - [212] Dagnabit - and I was going to liquidate my stock in this .... aha well it's only isk --
Dariah Stardweller Gallente Gung-Ho	Posted - 2010.09.06 10:48:00 - [213] Originally by: Xereyn Originally by: WHATSYOURPLEASURE I love when this topic comes up. I always have a simple question: If who you are in here isn't anything like you are out there, why do you enjoy being bad in here? Right. You know, in real life, you don't go around destroying people OR things just because you can, and you recognise that individuals have value. So why, when you play chess, do you toss away pawns like they don't matter? In real life, you probably don't set out to bankrupt everyone you know. So why, when you play Monopoly, do you try to take all their money? Why don't you cut them a break on the rent? In real life, you wouldn't shoot someone in the face... so why do you do that in Half-Life? Or Team Fortress 2? In TF2 that's a REAL PERSON behind the character, even... I don't scam. It's not my style, it gives me a weird crawly feeling to think about doing that kind of thing even in a game. But I have a tendency to over-empathise and I know it. I also have a station warehouse filled with all the people I've come across in missions, etc - hundreds of marines, militants, exotic dancers, janitors, you name it. Why a station warehouse? Well, there got to be too many of them - I calculated that between all the people, and all the food, water, and entertainment supplies I'd put in there with them, the station container they had been kept in would have too little space per person for comfort. I can't be mean to my imaginary pixel people. My housemate teases me about how I have an EVE dollhouse. I'm not going to be able to bring myself to scam real pixel people - i.e. other players. On the other hand, I've played Diplomacy, and in Diplomacy I've traded on friendship to make betraying someone easier, I've double-crossed and triple-crossed and I've been double-crossed - including by a friend who, in actual real life, I would trust absolutely, in any situation, with my life, my wallet, or my children. I would have no qualms about giving him every password I possess and signatory powers to my bank accounts. In a game like Diplomacy? I wouldn't trust him with a damp sponge for fear he'd find some way to knife me with it anyway. Games and reality are different, and people play games according to the rules they perceive in them - or they cheat, sure, but the thing is, in EVE, scamming isn't cheating. Cheating is immoral. If someone is hacking, exploiting, buying isk illegally, any of that stuff - then they're scum and we should all, collectively, spit on their frozen corpses. If they're not breaking the actual rules OF THE GAME, then crying about morality is just an excuse because either you don't have the skirt to do what they do, or you do, but they did it better, and either way: you're just bitter. I love you as you saved me typing a wall of text that said about the same. I want to marry you! Inappropriate signature removed. Zymurgist
Jackie Fisher Syrkos Technologies Joint Venture Conglomerate	Posted - 2010.09.06 11:38:00 - [214] Originally by: Xereyn You know, in real life, you don't go around destroying people OR things just because you can, and you recognise that individuals have value. So why, when you play chess, do you toss away pawns like they don't matter? In real life, you probably don't set out to bankrupt everyone you know. So why, when you play Monopoly, do you try to take all their money? Why don't you cut them a break on the rent? In real life, you wouldn't shoot someone in the face... so why do you do that in Half-Life? Or Team Fortress 2? In TF2 that's a REAL PERSON behind the character, even... I don't scam. It's not my style, it gives me a weird crawly feeling to think about doing that kind of thing even in a game. But I have a tendency to over-empathise and I know it. I also have a station warehouse filled with all the people I've come across in missions, etc - hundreds of marines, militants, exotic dancers, janitors, you name it. Why a station warehouse? Well, there got to be too many of them - I calculated that between all the people, and all the food, water, and entertainment supplies I'd put in there with them, the station container they had been kept in would have too little space per person for comfort. I can't be mean to my imaginary pixel people. My housemate teases me about how I have an EVE dollhouse. I'm not going to be able to bring myself to scam real pixel people - i.e. other players. On the other hand, I've played Diplomacy, and in Diplomacy I've traded on friendship to make betraying someone easier, I've double-crossed and triple-crossed and I've been double-crossed - including by a friend who, in actual real life, I would trust absolutely, in any situation, with my life, my wallet, or my children. I would have no qualms about giving him every password I possess and signatory powers to my bank accounts. In a game like Diplomacy? I wouldn't trust him with a damp sponge for fear he'd find some way to knife me with it anyway. Games and reality are different, and people play games according to the rules they perceive in them - or they cheat, sure, but the thing is, in EVE, scamming isn't cheating. Cheating is immoral. If someone is hacking, exploiting, buying isk illegally, any of that stuff - then they're scum and we should all, collectively, spit on their frozen corpses. If they're not breaking the actual rules OF THE GAME, then crying about morality is just an excuse because either you don't have the skirt to do what they do, or you do, but they did it better, and either way: you're just bitter. All those games have clear victory conditions and often narrow rules so all players know before they start what the goals are and what behaviour is acceptable. Eve doesnÆt have that so we tend to define our own ideas of winning and acceptable behaviour. ItÆs easy to forget that your own definition might be a long way from the next persons.
Xereyn	Posted - 2010.09.06 11:47:00 - [215] Originally by: Dariah Stardweller I love you as you saved me typing a wall of text that said about the same. I want to marry you! I'm flattered... but according to your character portrait, you're a girl, and gay marriage isn't legal in my country. We can have an internets forum fling though. fade out rustling sounds fade in There. Meanwhile, on topic: I do find it interesting that EVE's true-sandbox nature results in a situation like this, where different people are really playing such wildly different versions of the game. By his terms, Bad Bobby just won; by some people's, he just lost. Some people think the point of EVE is to ruin someone else's day; I think that sounds like a miserably unfun game, but then, the version of EVE I play is currently about the careful accumulation of assets and skills in preparation for future risk and adventure; they'd probably find it boring, because most of the things I own I don't ever even undock with. One day I'll be ready to take on grander plans, but even then, most of my assets will stay at a station, because the point is to be able to risk the rest without fear of being wiped out and having to start all over again. Everyone's playing a different game. Everyone. They just happen to have the same name.
Dariah Stardweller Gallente Gung-Ho	Posted - 2010.09.06 12:03:00 - [216] Originally by: Jackie Fisher All those games have clear victory conditions and often narrow rules so all players know before they start what the goals are and what behaviour is acceptable. Eve doesnÆt have that so we tend to define our own ideas of winning and acceptable behaviour. ItÆs easy to forget that your own definition might be a long way from the next persons. MMO's usually lack clear victory conditions and narrow rules. It's part of their charm. EVE DOES have rules though in the end. And no rules are broken though by this sort of scamming. So in the end, there is NO cheating whatsoever by doing this. It's just part of the game. As taking other ppl's money is part of the game in monopoly (a very big part even ). I have never scammed, yet I don't have any problems with the fact that stuff like this happens. In fact, I admire ppl who manage to take off with such a large ammount of isk. Inappropriate signature removed. Zymurgist
Bill Alt	Posted - 2010.09.06 12:40:00 - [217] Originally by: KaarBaak I believe the CCP exchange rate for 850b isk is $0.00 KB I see the appeal of pretending so. It does reinforce the idea that this type of theft isn't "real" and so we can continue to believe morality doesn't apply to our internet lives. The fact that a 60 day timecard costs $35 is irrelevant here! lol Perhaps Bobby, having made his point, will now return the isk to those that (albeit foolishly) gave it to him. After all, it has no real value to him, right? That's why CCP encourages isk sellers.
Xereyn	Posted - 2010.09.06 13:05:00 - [218] Originally by: Bill Alt Originally by: KaarBaak I believe the CCP exchange rate for 850b isk is $0.00 KB I see the appeal of pretending so. It does reinforce the idea that this type of theft isn't "real" and so we can continue to believe morality doesn't apply to our internet lives. The fact that a 60 day timecard costs $35 is irrelevant here! lol Perhaps Bobby, having made his point, will now return the isk to those that (albeit foolishly) gave it to him. After all, it has no real value to him, right? That's why CCP encourages isk sellers. Yes. A 60 day time card is $35. Therefore $35 has a substantial isk value. Isk, however, has absolutely zero cash value in dollars or any other currency.
Dezolf Minmatar DAX Action Stance	Posted - 2010.09.06 13:17:00 - [219] Originally by: Xereyn Yes. A 60 day time card is $35. Therefore $35 has a substantial isk value. Isk, however, has absolutely zero cash value in dollars or any other currency. Well.. A pass for Eve Fanfest can (or could, at the very least) be bought with PLEXes, this is something that has a value in dollars, ie. a viable Isk>dollars conversion. Of course, it is limited how many passes you can buy (and/or resell, if reselling is even legal). Also, is a sentimental value = zero value? Or even time-invested value = zero value.
Bill Alt	Posted - 2010.09.06 13:32:00 - [220] Originally by: Xereyn Isk, however, has absolutely zero cash value in dollars or any other currency. Please... That's fascinating calculus, and still false. Practically speaking, isk has a very clear RM value, as well as the subjective value based on the time and effort it takes to accumulate it. Rationalizing otherwise is nonsense. What were the figures on how much real money Ricdic managed to net from his isk? How about Remedial? I wonder what the total value in hard currency of isk sold to date has been? That would be an interesting factoid.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2010.09.06 13:36:00 - [221] ISK does not have value in the same way as booze during the Prohibition didn't have a value. Sure you'd have to break the rules, but you'd still be able to make some RL cash if done right.
Xereyn	Posted - 2010.09.06 14:14:00 - [222] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab ISK does not have value in the same way as booze during the Prohibition didn't have a value. Sure you'd have to break the rules, but you'd still be able to make some RL cash if done right. Potentially, but at that point you more than forfeit your right to view yourself as morally superior to a scammer. Isk only has cash value by cheating, outright and flagrantly. Accordingly, if you ascribe a cash value to isk, any moral high ground you are attempting to take is shaky indeed.
daddys helper	Posted - 2010.09.06 14:21:00 - [223] I sort of saw the writing on the wall with this one. Lets recap... first T4U shares auction appears on the forums a couple of weeks ago. Trading is brisk, the seller sells out in a day that evening T4U pays a dividend (first warning flag) within a couple days a second T4U shares auction pops up, this time complete with shill bidders buying out the lot every day to inflate the price (no I still don't believe you, especially now)(second red flag) T4U shareholders were selling out, someone (or several someones)on the inside knew something was going down.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.09.06 14:24:00 - [224] Originally by: daddys helper I sort of saw the writing on the wall with this one. Lets recap... first T4U shares auction appears on the forums a couple of weeks ago. Trading is brisk, the seller sells out in a day that evening T4U pays a dividend (first warning flag) within a couple days a second T4U shares auction pops up, this time complete with shill bidders buying out the lot every day to inflate the price (no I still don't believe you, especially now)(second red flag) T4U shareholders were selling out, someone (or several someones)on the inside knew something was going down. Those aren't really warning signs. We knew 4 months in advance when dividends were coming as most BPCs were sold on preorders. Plus the trading of shares was always done. I've bought and sold hundreds of shares over the life of it and so have others.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.06 14:28:00 - [225] Originally by: Xereyn Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab ISK does not have value in the same way as booze during the Prohibition didn't have a value. Sure you'd have to break the rules, but you'd still be able to make some RL cash if done right. Potentially, but at that point you more than forfeit your right to view yourself as morally superior to a scammer. Isk only has cash value by cheating, outright and flagrantly. Accordingly, if you ascribe a cash value to isk, any moral high ground you are attempting to take is shaky indeed. And that's further evidence of what I posted some time ago. There are psychological traits that define a dishonest "inside" guy. While a regular "pirate" who gate camps and kills you to make some money has indeed no particular connections (so not everyone doing "evil" are bad in RL), a guy who feels engrossed and bold and proud of having buttfaced someone else is prone to also have lowered RL standards. IE the same guy who backstabbed 5 years long friends or robbed 100B in game and even posts on C&P about his GREAT accomplishment, will be naturally pushed to also accept selling the loot for RMT. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Bill Alt	Posted - 2010.09.06 14:36:00 - [226] Originally by: Xereyn Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Potentially, but at that point you more than forfeit your right to view yourself as morally superior to a scammer. Isk only has cash value by cheating, outright and flagrantly. Accordingly, if you ascribe a cash value to isk, any moral high ground you are attempting to take is shaky indeed. But there is no moral issue if a person had just planned to use their returned isk to purchase PLEXes? I don't think that logic works. I wouldn't prosecute BB or even ban him, the rules allow what he did. We can call it legal and still be honest about the fact that only the internet allows a person to behave in such a morally bankrupt way. It's not a character when the value of what he steals is appreciably real, it's him. And others will rationalize it a way because they also like the way the environment allows them to relax their morals.
Dtail	Posted - 2010.09.06 14:56:00 - [227] Originally by: Dezolf Also, is a sentimental value = zero value? Or even time-invested value = zero value. Your sht value does not increase when you eat in restaurant nor it does increase when you spend 1 hour in toilet. It just doesn't work that way guys. Videogame currency does not have eny value in RL what there should be discussed. Ofc you can find someone to pay for both of them, but does that give your sht real value?
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking	Posted - 2010.09.06 15:04:00 - [228] Edited by: corestwo on 06/09/2010 15:06:00 Originally by: Xereyn Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab ISK does not have value in the same way as booze during the Prohibition didn't have a value. Sure you'd have to break the rules, but you'd still be able to make some RL cash if done right. Potentially, but at that point you more than forfeit your right to view yourself as morally superior to a scammer. Isk only has cash value by cheating, outright and flagrantly. Accordingly, if you ascribe a cash value to isk, any moral high ground you are attempting to take is shaky indeed. You're pretty funny, you know that? It's possible to acknowledge the existence of something "immoral" without actually partaking in it. I mean, you acknowledge that **, murder, theft, etc etc happens in the real world, right? Originally by:** Vaerah Vahrokha Originally by: Xereyn Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab ISK does not have value in the same way as booze during the Prohibition didn't have a value. Sure you'd have to break the rules, but you'd still be able to make some RL cash if done right. Potentially, but at that point you more than forfeit your right to view yourself as morally superior to a scammer. Isk only has cash value by cheating, outright and flagrantly. Accordingly, if you ascribe a cash value to isk, any moral high ground you are attempting to take is shaky indeed. And that's further evidence of what I posted some time ago. There are psychological traits that define a dishonest "inside" guy. While a regular "pirate" who gate camps and kills you to make some money has indeed no particular connections (so not everyone doing "evil" are bad in RL), a guy who feels engrossed and bold and proud of having buttfaced someone else is prone to also have lowered RL standards. IE the same guy who backstabbed 5 years long friends or robbed 100B in game and even posts on C&P about his GREAT accomplishment, will be naturally pushed to also accept selling the loot for RMT. :roll: Yes, because he behaves in a method that you find to be "immoral" in-game, he will also clearly be pushed into doing something "immoral" through out of game means.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.06 15:20:00 - [229] Quote: Yes, because he behaves in a method that you find to be "immoral" in-game, he will also clearly be pushed into doing something "immoral" through out of game means. For sure, he'll be pushed doing that much more than someone who would not even do that in a game. Sure nothing is absolute and true by statically pre-written rules but if I'd be forced choose whether to lend my RL money to someone who in EvE has always been a constructive and up standing guy vs someone who always flaunted and supported scamming, I'd definitely pick the former. And you? - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Bill Alt	Posted - 2010.09.06 15:23:00 - [230] Originally by: corestwo Yes, because he behaves in a method that you find to be "immoral" in-game, he will also clearly be pushed into doing something "immoral" through out of game means.[/quote He has, in fact, already taken something of value. In real life. People don't want their isk back because the digits look cool in their wallets. They want it back because it had value, to real people. And yes, that value can be converted to currency and we all know it.
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking	Posted - 2010.09.06 15:35:00 - [231] Edited by: corestwo on 06/09/2010 15:37:02 Edited by: corestwo on 06/09/2010 15:36:24 Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: Yes, because he behaves in a method that you find to be "immoral" in-game, he will also clearly be pushed into doing something "immoral" through out of game means. For sure, he'll be pushed doing that much more than someone who would not even do that in a game. Sure nothing is absolute and true by statically pre-written rules but if I'd be forced choose whether to lend my RL money to someone who in EvE has always been a constructive and up standing guy vs someone who always flaunted and supported scamming, I'd definitely pick the former. And you? Fine, you don't trust him, I get that. That's your prerogative. You're also entitled to your opinion, which is apparently that because he's a scammer and a pirate in-game, he must be a horrible person IRL who will lie, cheat, steal, and RMT the scammed isk. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and none of their opinions actually have any bearing whatsoever on whether he would actually lie, cheat, steal, and RMT the scammed isk. Originally by: Bill Alt Originally by: corestwo Yes, because he behaves in a method that you find to be "immoral" in-game, he will also clearly be pushed into doing something "immoral" through out of game means. He has, in fact, already taken something of value. In real life. People don't want their isk back because the digits look cool in their wallets. They want it back because it had value, to real people. And yes, that value can be converted to currency and we all know it. Not even quite sure why you're throwing this in here. Yes it has value, yes it has value in real life, and that value is derived from the time it took to get it, and yes there's the consideration of illicit RMT trading that adds value (potential value, anyway, that some people prefer to go LALALA and pretend doesn't exist) from another angle. You're just saying what I already said.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.06 16:09:00 - [232] Quote: Fine, you don't trust him, I get that. That's your prerogative Yes, it is. Quote: You're also entitled to your opinion, which is apparently that because he's a scammer and a pirate in-game I exactly made the example above about how someone playing pirate does NOT necessarily map to out of game anything. I understand YOUR ruleset works different than mine but at least don't try to put words in my mouth that I did not say. Quote: Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and none of their opinions actually have any bearing whatsoever on whether he would actually lie, cheat, steal, and RMT the scammed isk They have a bearing, in the very deep sense of bearing. If before I buy an used car and I see a ruined door and the gears engage very bad and scratching, I CAN draw a plausible hyphotesis that the previous owner was not so kind with her and also that the car seller is not attentive to restoring the car to acceptable functionality. Likewise if I see someone that does gratuitous harm ************* AND ************ (bolded for moar emphasis since you did not see above) gloats about that (not just sportmanship smack, but real gloat with pride) and goes to post everywhere how cool he was etc. etc., then I CAN draw an hypothesis that the guy is really a jerk, game or not game. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking	Posted - 2010.09.06 16:19:00 - [233] Edited by: corestwo on 06/09/2010 16:25:27 Edited by: corestwo on 06/09/2010 16:24:00 Edited by: corestwo on 06/09/2010 16:21:44 Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: You're also entitled to your opinion, which is apparently that because he's a scammer and a pirate in-game I exactly made the example above about how someone playing pirate does NOT necessarily map to out of game anything. I understand YOUR ruleset works different than mine but at least don't try to put words in my mouth that I did not say. I must have missed said example, my apologies. Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and none of their opinions actually have any bearing whatsoever on whether he would actually lie, cheat, steal, and RMT the scammed isk They have a bearing, in the very deep sense of bearing. If before I buy an used car and I see a ruined door and the gears engage very bad and scratching, I CAN draw a plausible hyphotesis that the previous owner was not so kind with her and also that the car seller is not attentive to restoring the car to acceptable functionality. Likewise if I see someone that does gratuitous harm ************* AND ************ (bolded for moar emphasis since you did not see above) gloats about that (not just sportmanship smack, but real gloat with pride) and goes to post everywhere how cool he was etc. etc., then I CAN draw an hypothesis that the guy is really a jerk, game or not game. I can see how you think the former owner & car salesman example is basically the same situation as this; personally I disagree. Doesn't seem like there's any sense in trying to convince one another that the other is wrong though, in this case... Setting aside the gratuitous harm for a moment (I'll come back to it), is there anything wrong with taking pride in one's actions? Didn't think so. Why does the gratuitous harm make it bad? IRL if you take pride in murdering someone, sure, that's one thing, but this is a game where virtually all forms of PvP are allowed. He engaged in PvP. Sure it caused "gratuitous harm" but harm of some form to another player is an expected result.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.06 16:31:00 - [234] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 06/09/2010 16:32:20 Quote: And taking pride in your accomplishments is understandable. If instead of scamming he had announced that he were closing down the IPO after a long, successful run, taking pride in it would be okay, right? You take pride in your actions if, say, a well planned speculation nets you billions? Why is taking pride in his actions, then, wrong? Because they hurt others? The entire game is pvp-centric, so admonishing someone for taking pride in hurting another person in it is silly. There's an insormountable barrier about this, as I said above Philosophy vs Philosophy aka PvP. PvP-centric, don't fly what you can't afford to lose, unconsensual PvP you name it. That's all fair and nice. It's written all over EvE and most games have some portion of that. Backstabbing friends, scamming with subtle social engineering etc. etc. ARE legit and also understandable but I just can't recognize them as something to be proud of, unless you have some negative characterial issue. What's my subjective meter? I call it "sportmanship". If something is a good sport, a good challenge, a "gf" those are neat things that make EvE positively unique. Acting totally against sportmanship is something I just can't take, even if I know it's legit and for some it's the best out there. I happen to think that the latter do have something in their brain that hints at them not being exactly angels IRL. I think it's just a plausible hyphothesis of mine, of course this will have exceptions etc. etc. but I am fairly sure that if we took 1000 constructive and upstanding EvE players vs 1000 scammers / thieves / traitors EvE players and we went to observe their life, we'd see a statistical difference between the two groups. It's just that "thing" that pushes you beyond, that makes you pull the trigger instead of resisting it. Once done once, it gets easier and you are not what you were before any more. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking	Posted - 2010.09.06 16:43:00 - [235] So, you can't recognize them as things to be proud of. You consider yourself normal and well-adjusted, so therefore, anyone who doesn't, probably has something wrong with them?
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.06 17:38:00 - [236] Quote: I guess by your standards, I'm maladjusted irl, yes? You were using the game in unintended features enough that they got nerfed. But that would make you opportunistic - a typical human trait - not "maladjusted". Quote: However, about a year ago I ran a bond, took billions of isk from my fellow goons to run my business, and when the time came I paid all 80 billion (small change compared to this, but quite a bit for me) back in full. Are your closely held opinions about game morality vs IRL morality confused yet? You did your duty to alliance mates, why should it be confusing? Did you pull the trigger? No. The rest is blah blah. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Mme Pinkerton United Engineering Services	Posted - 2010.09.06 17:44:00 - [237] you only think pulling the trigger is some defining event until you have pulled it once^^
Scott Ryder Amarr art of eve Gunmen of the Apocalypse	Posted - 2010.09.06 17:48:00 - [238] I lolled. What I find most amusing here is that quite some time ago I tried to launch a venture on MD, somehow it got flagged red even when I offered to be audited etc, Bad Bobby offered to hold the collateral, he was one of those that said I should start smaller =) I firmly remember me asking who is Bad Bobby and why is he more trustworthy then me. I assume everyone that walks on water will cash in sooner or later. Amusing times indeed.
Dzil Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve OWN Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.06 23:07:00 - [239] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 06/09/2010 16:32:20 Quote: And taking pride in your accomplishments is understandable. If instead of scamming he had announced that he were closing down the IPO after a long, successful run, taking pride in it would be okay, right? You take pride in your actions if, say, a well planned speculation nets you billions? Why is taking pride in his actions, then, wrong? Because they hurt others? The entire game is pvp-centric, so admonishing someone for taking pride in hurting another person in it is silly. There's an insormountable barrier about this, as I said above Philosophy vs Philosophy aka PvP. PvP-centric, don't fly what you can't afford to lose, unconsensual PvP you name it. That's all fair and nice. It's written all over EvE and most games have some portion of that. Backstabbing friends, scamming with subtle social engineering etc. etc. ARE legit and also understandable but I just can't recognize them as something to be proud of, unless you have some negative characterial issue. What's my subjective meter? I call it "sportmanship". If something is a good sport, a good challenge, a "gf" those are neat things that make EvE positively unique. Acting totally against sportmanship is something I just can't take, even if I know it's legit and for some it's the best out there. I happen to think that the latter do have something in their brain that hints at them not being exactly angels IRL. I think it's just a plausible hyphothesis of mine, of course this will have exceptions etc. etc. but I am fairly sure that if we took 1000 constructive and upstanding EvE players vs 1000 scammers / thieves / traitors EvE players and we went to observe their life, we'd see a statistical difference between the two groups. It's just that "thing" that pushes you beyond, that makes you pull the trigger instead of resisting it. Once done once, it gets easier and you are not what you were before any more. Do you play poker? Can you bluff? Does that make you a liar? Retired from corp sales. Time to spend some of this on pretty explosions :)
Xereyn	Posted - 2010.09.07 02:45:00 - [240] Originally by: Dzil Do you play poker? Can you bluff? Does that make you a liar? Curious example, actually. Bluffing in poker doesn't make you "a liar", but it does require you to be lying. However, that's one of those areas where a person's situational mindset is going to be very important. Using myself as an example, although not poker because I don't play it: I am, in general terms, a terrible, terrible liar. My friends trust me when I'm telling the truth in part because on the rare occasions when I've tried to lie, they can always tell instantly. (In related news, no-one in my social group's tried to hold a surprise party in the best part of ten years, because it all ends in "... well, that was kind of hilarious, but none of us want to live a sitcom, so let's not try that again.") However, as I mentioned upthread, I've played Diplomacy. And in Diplomacy, I can lie with all the earnest sincerity I usually apply to telling the truth. One friend lost almost his entire country in one year because he believed me when I told him that I would absolutely, definitely, be moving my troops on, we were just going past, hey, didn't we just agree to work together? and so was persuaded to move his forces out of the way so I could occupy his territory. The difference is: In Diplomacy, lying is an essential part of the game; I'm not really lying, I'm playing. (Although Diplomacy invariably gives me a headache, and cognitive dissonance may be part of it.) Am I a liar? I would say no. Am I capable of lying? Apparently, yes. But I'm not comfortable with it unless it's a game where that's the essential and intrinsic nature of play. For me, EVE isn't that game. I'm playing Spaceships and Industry and Stuff Online. But some people are playing Scams Online, which means that it IS. Playing Scams Online doesn't make you a bad person; it's within the scope of the game, so it's fine. For the record, the only people whose approach I think is Genuinely Wrong are people who set out with the deliberate INTENT of making other people feel bad. If you do something like scam, or gank, or whatever, because you want their money/stuff, then that's cool. If you do that because you want to upset them, then you are, in fact, a bad person. We're dealing with the ancient judicial concepts here, actually, when we consider whether someone is committing a crime in moral terms. Actus reus is the scam. In EVE, that is not breaking the rules, so it's fine. Mens rea is required to make this a moral crime - there must be intent to cause harm to the real person, not the character. If you intend to take someone's in-game assets, it's one thing, but if you're intending to cause someone out-of-game emotional distress, it's entirely another. It's rather murky and subjective, but that's humans for you, really.
Shivercoin	Posted - 2010.09.07 03:58:00 - [241] Originally by: Xereyn Originally by: Dzil Do you play poker? Can you bluff? Does that make you a liar? Curious example, actually. Bluffing in poker doesn't make you "a liar", but it does require you to be lying. However, that's one of those areas where a person's situational mindset is going to be very important. Using myself as an example, although not poker because I don't play it: I am, in general terms, a terrible, terrible liar. My friends trust me when I'm telling the truth in part because on the rare occasions when I've tried to lie, they can always tell instantly. (In related news, no-one in my social group's tried to hold a surprise party in the best part of ten years, because it all ends in "... well, that was kind of hilarious, but none of us want to live a sitcom, so let's not try that again.") However, as I mentioned upthread, I've played Diplomacy. And in Diplomacy, I can lie with all the earnest sincerity I usually apply to telling the truth. One friend lost almost his entire country in one year because he believed me when I told him that I would absolutely, definitely, be moving my troops on, we were just going past, hey, didn't we just agree to work together? and so was persuaded to move his forces out of the way so I could occupy his territory. The difference is: In Diplomacy, lying is an essential part of the game; I'm not really lying, I'm playing. (Although Diplomacy invariably gives me a headache, and cognitive dissonance may be part of it.) Am I a liar? I would say no. Am I capable of lying? Apparently, yes. But I'm not comfortable with it unless it's a game where that's the essential and intrinsic nature of play. For me, EVE isn't that game. I'm playing Spaceships and Industry and Stuff Online. But some people are playing Scams Online, which means that it IS. Playing Scams Online doesn't make you a bad person; it's within the scope of the game, so it's fine. For the record, the only people whose approach I think is Genuinely Wrong are people who set out with the deliberate INTENT of making other people feel bad. If you do something like scam, or gank, or whatever, because you want their money/stuff, then that's cool. If you do that because you want to upset them, then you are, in fact, a bad person. We're dealing with the ancient judicial concepts here, actually, when we consider whether someone is committing a crime in moral terms. Actus reus is the scam. In EVE, that is not breaking the rules, so it's fine. Mens rea is required to make this a moral crime - there must be intent to cause harm to the real person, not the character. If you intend to take someone's in-game assets, it's one thing, but if you're intending to cause someone out-of-game emotional distress, it's entirely another. It's rather murky and subjective, but that's humans for you, really. In poker you aren't lieing you're just suggesting you have a good hand. In another way in diplomacy you were sort of lieing you said you were moving on but you didn't say when ... I don't want to go back and read the T4U history, I didn't invest but did BB say how long he was going to bbe giving returns? Just having a laugh really but I'm sort of inferring that the definition of truth is subjective or which level of truth must be adhered to the qualify it as honest. There is despetion in the business word all the time but there are set rules about whar is scamming and it's illegal... It's EvE. I don't know if I articulated that as I intended or expanded on it as much I needed to but honestly I need to go to the bathroom and get another drink.
cosmoray Cosmoray Holdings Corp	Posted - 2010.09.07 05:36:00 - [242] I am calling BS on the people who say that scammers in Eve are somewhat dishonest in RL, or certainly that is being implied here. There are no rules preventing scamming in Eve. It is not against the EULA. Perhaps people might like to commit crimes in the fantsay world which they wouldn't do in RL. It's part of a GAME, it is not neccesarily some indictment on the character. Too many people need to get off their high horses that they have the same morales in RL as in Eve or that they don't lie in RL or bluff in RL. I have lied and bluffed my bosses at work for a bigger pay rise. Am I bad person, well I couldn't care what people think as I have more money coming into my house for me and my wife. Anyone who says they would never lie/bluff to better their lives or who have never lied, I will show you someone who is a liar.
Martosh Toma Gallente Fraction Investment	Posted - 2010.09.07 05:41:00 - [243] BB claimed he would have continued to run T4U legitimately had the trustees insisted the new trustees were brought into the company securely (as in only make shares for one new trustee at a time, perhaps insist the shares not handed out to a now inactive trustee be reused etc), but he would never have wrapped it up or liquidated it. He did not need to scam it now, he could easily afford to wait for the system to fail and do his best to work towards it in slow steps. In time it would probably only have become easier to take even more isk.
Bastaardicious FinFleet IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.07 07:00:00 - [244] Hahaha, omg i'm ROFL'ing here. Way to go. Oh god i love eve.
F90OEX F9X WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.09.07 08:00:00 - [245] Originally by: cosmoray I am calling BS on the people who say that scammers in Eve are somewhat dishonest in RL, or certainly that is being implied here. There are no rules preventing scamming in Eve. It is not against the EULA. Perhaps people might like to commit crimes in the fantsay world which they wouldn't do in RL. It's part of a GAME, it is not neccesarily some indictment on the character. Too many people need to get off their high horses that they have the same morales in RL as in Eve or that they don't lie in RL or bluff in RL. I have lied and bluffed my bosses at work for a bigger pay rise. Am I bad person, well I couldn't care what people think as I have more money coming into my house for me and my wife. Anyone who says they would never lie/bluff to better their lives or who have never lied, I will show you someone who is a liar. Well I think one of the reasons they feel like this is that I bet several people into BB's deal paid real money for ISK either from Time cards/plexs or bought ISK. So in a way they feel money was stolen from them ( indirectly). It's amazing the lengths some people will go to get a nice amount of Isk in eve. Personally I think it's silly also, but then again lots of silly people play eve
GX307	Posted - 2010.09.07 08:15:00 - [246] Originally by: cosmoray I am calling BS on the people who say that scammers in Eve are somewhat dishonest in RL, or certainly that is being implied here. There are no rules preventing scamming in Eve. It is not against the EULA. Perhaps people might like to commit crimes in the fantsay world which they wouldn't do in RL. It's part of a GAME, it is not neccesarily some indictment on the character. Too many people need to get off their high horses that they have the same morales in RL as in Eve or that they don't lie in RL or bluff in RL. I have lied and bluffed my bosses at work for a bigger pay rise. Am I bad person, well I couldn't care what people think as I have more money coming into my house for me and my wife. Anyone who says they would never lie/bluff to better their lives or who have never lied, I will show you someone who is a liar. I'm calling BS on cosmoray. Lets say the player behind Bad Bobby makes a new alt tomorrow called Good Bobby. And as you suggest he's just playing the game RP'ing or whatever and says: "On Good Bobby i'm going to be all good! And if some opportunity comes along where I can take all the isk from my brand new Super Good Bond of Goodness, i'm not going to take it, you can trust me this time, scouts honor!" Please explain how you are going to invest in any of Good Bobby's bonds or ventures or whatever and that the person behind the in game character isn't a factor in your decision.
Cheque Please Hot Like Mexico	Posted - 2010.09.07 08:50:00 - [247] All this confusing talk about morality and good and evil and the wrongness of scamming... Let's all follow the advice of George Costanza. Remember folks: it's not a lie if you believe it. --- WORMHOLE SERVICE RL Meeting w/ Chribba
nStedt Big Guns Inc. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.07 11:49:00 - [248] Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but why are the shares stuff important? With any director role you can just cancel the office rent where the BPOs are and everything will drop into "Deliveries" from you can scoop it. What I am missing? / nStedt
Cobalt Sixty Caldari The Price of Darkness	Posted - 2010.09.07 12:09:00 - [249] Originally by: GX307 I'm calling BS on cosmoray. No, you're a Battleship! (See what I did there?) I am wondering if maybe Cosmo is talking about the hysterical slander that can sometimes build around a character once they do something along the lines of what Bobby has just pulled off - and how often it targets the person behind the character instead of the character itself. I know when Tarac Nor pulled the plug on Ushra'Khan there were all sorts of crazy **** being spouted by the rage brigade. Some of which was dealt with.
Martosh Toma Gallente Fraction Investment	Posted - 2010.09.07 13:30:00 - [250] nStedt, I think that trick falls under exploits and can be petitioned. That is the detail you are missing I think.
Bill Alt	Posted - 2010.09.07 13:36:00 - [251] Originally by: cosmoray Too many people need to get off their high horses that they have the same morales in RL as in Eve or that they don't lie in RL or bluff in RL. I have lied and bluffed my bosses at work for a bigger pay rise. Am I bad person, well I couldn't care what people think as I have more money coming into my house for me and my wife. Anyone who says they would never lie/bluff to better their lives or who have never lied, I will show you someone who is a liar. You're doing a little projecting here to ease your own conscience. I don't, as a general rule lie in RL or Eve. Though in Eve, to a point, it's a perfectly acceptable part of the game. (The thing wouldn't work without opposing forces.) I have never lied to my employer, and getting benefit from lying certainly doesn't justify it. You might not care what people think about your character flaw, that doesn't mean it's not there. And frankly, knowing that you lie in RL to gain benefit, certainly makes you a worse risk in game to handle huge amounts of isk. So the difference between you and Ricdic is only the perception of what you think you're owed at the moment? You have no problems with his theft?
KaarBaak Minmatar Hell's Librarians Imperium Directive	Posted - 2010.09.07 14:02:00 - [252] Originally by: Bill Alt Originally by: cosmoray Too many people need to get off their high horses that they have the same morales in RL as in Eve or that they don't lie in RL or bluff in RL. I have lied and bluffed my bosses at work for a bigger pay rise. Am I bad person, well I couldn't care what people think as I have more money coming into my house for me and my wife. Anyone who says they would never lie/bluff to better their lives or who have never lied, I will show you someone who is a liar. You're doing a little projecting here to ease your own conscience. I don't, as a general rule lie in RL or Eve. Though in Eve, to a point, it's a perfectly acceptable part of the game. (The thing wouldn't work without opposing forces.) I have never lied to my employer, and getting benefit from lying certainly doesn't justify it. You might not care what people think about your character flaw, that doesn't mean it's not there. And frankly, knowing that you lie in RL to gain benefit, certainly makes you a worse risk in game to handle huge amounts of isk. So the difference between you and Ricdic is only the perception of what you think you're owed at the moment? You have no problems with his theft? IIRC, there are many people who don't have a problem with what Ricdic did due to his claims that he needed the money to take care of some kind of family emergency or some such. Apparently it's ok to lie, cheat or steal as long as it's for the "right" reasons. KB =vinur allra manna MetaGaming
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2010.09.07 14:26:00 - [253] Such a shame.. wish I had more time for the game otherwise I would have been in here screaming from the tops of the mountains not to create anymore shares. At least I know I voted against it.
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2010.09.07 14:35:00 - [254] The whole morals in games equals morals in real life is stupidity personified... People that play EVE as a Pirate, do not go out in real life and attack and kill people willy nilly.. They don't stand in dark allies with weapons and hold people ransom, and then kill them if they do or don't get their demands. It's morally wrong to kill someone in real life, yet billions of online avatars die every single day at the hands of people who have never committed a felony in any sovereign state anywhere in the world. To say if someone steals something in a game, they are more apt to perform the same actions in real life is probably a sad sign of lack of intelligence or more the point lack of logical reasoning then anything else. Amarr for Life
Bill Alt	Posted - 2010.09.07 14:56:00 - [255] Edited by: Bill Alt on 07/09/2010 14:58:04 Originally by: SencneS The whole morals in games equals morals in real life is stupidity personified... People that play EVE as a Pirate, do not go out in real life and attack and kill people willy nilly.. They don't stand in dark allies with weapons and hold people ransom, and then kill them if they do or don't get their demands. It's morally wrong to kill someone in real life, yet billions of online avatars die every single day at the hands of people who have never committed a felony in any sovereign state anywhere in the world. To say if someone steals something in a game, they are more apt to perform the same actions in real life is probably a sad sign of lack of intelligence or more the point lack of logical reasoning then anything else. Speaking of lacking in intelligence, ôkillerö exaggeration is nothing but a strawman, no one has suggested it but you. Obviously, the point where these kinds of things cross the line is entirely subjective. You could carry the ôvalueö argument to a ridiculous extreme by pointing out that even Eve spaceships have value, and thus blowing them up is theft. I think itÆs safe to say that most everyone would regard that as a silly position. On the other hand, stealing the equivalent of thousands of dollars of isk crosses a line somewhere, and reasonable, ethical people see that. ItÆs the position that real value has not been taken from real people in significant amounts that appears lacking in intelligence or logic. The fact that it was through a game mechanism make legal sense, but not moral sense. Would I change the system? No. There's really no suitable way do so that wouldnÆt result in the solution being worse than the problem. Do I have a problem pointing out that it takes a type of real-life integrity deficient to do something like this? Hardly. BB want to show he's a RL stand-up guy? Laugh about his success, give the isk back to the folks that trusted him, and move on.
RAW23	Posted - 2010.09.07 15:00:00 - [256] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Such a shame.. wish I had more time for the game otherwise I would have been in here screaming from the tops of the mountains not to create anymore shares. At least I know I voted against it. Against the creation of holding company shares or public shares? Because the creation of the latter was irrelevant to the scam, other than that it increased Bobby's prize pot somewhat. It was the former that allowed the scam to take place.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2010.09.07 15:03:00 - [257] Originally by: RAW23 Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Such a shame.. wish I had more time for the game otherwise I would have been in here screaming from the tops of the mountains not to create anymore shares. At least I know I voted against it. Against the creation of holding company shares or public shares? Because the creation of the latter was irrelevant to the scam, other than that it increased Bobby's prize pot somewhat. It was the former that allowed the scam to take place. Both actually
Mme Pinkerton United Engineering Services	Posted - 2010.09.07 15:05:00 - [258] Originally by: Bill Alt On the other hand, stealing the equivalent of thousands of dollars of isk crosses a line somewhere, and reasonable, ethical people see that. The problem with reasonable, ethical people is that they are usually neither able to tell you at which point this line is drawn nor why the line has to be drawn at exactly that point and not one epsilon below or above. In most cases they will say something like "there's the line", so you start slightly below the line and expand the example step by step - at the end they will have said "yes, this wouldn't change much" at each of your steps but you have gone with them way above their original line. not sure what's reasonable about this kind of behavior...
Bill Alt	Posted - 2010.09.07 15:11:00 - [259] Originally by: Mme Pinkerton The problem with reasonable, ethical people is that they are usually neither able to tell you at which point this line is drawn nor why the line has to be drawn at exactly that point and not one epsilon below or above. You're right of course. The line can't be drawn at any agreeable place, thus you can't mandate it. So, we'll just BS about it on an internet forum to amuse ourselves because it's a more interesting subject than a new Rifter fitting. Still, the notion that morality is only relevant if it's enforceable is problematic for me, personally.
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2010.09.07 15:13:00 - [260] Originally by: Bill Alt Speaking of lacking in intelligence, ôkillerö exaggeration is nothing but a strawman, no one has suggested it but you. I guess your definition of straw man differs from the definition that everyone else uses.. You and others are talking about moral compass, not the scenario of actually act of committing a crime. Morally those that commit a defined in real life type crime, in EVE do not go out and commit the same crime in real life. Theft, Killing, Espionage, and anything else illegal in real life but "OK" in the gaming community. Killing is mealy one of those actions in game you're allowed to commit that has a moral consequence in real life, just as theft is also immoral in real life. Hence the relationship between killing and theft in game verse real live is hardly straw man... So next time you want to attempt a Ad hominem make sure you use the right terms numb nuts. Amarr for Life
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.09.07 15:14:00 - [261] Originally by: Bill Alt Originally by: Mme Pinkerton The problem with reasonable, ethical people is that they are usually neither able to tell you at which point this line is drawn nor why the line has to be drawn at exactly that point and not one epsilon below or above. Still, the notion that morality is only relevant if it's enforceable is problematic for me, personally.
Bernard Schuyler	Posted - 2010.09.07 15:38:00 - [262] Originally by: nocSTANtine Edited by: nocSTANtine on 04/09/2010 13:19:36 Hat's off! But really this isn't down to Bob, if I had the chance to turn game isk into $47K I would rip you all off in a heart beat! This is down to CCP, the scam's will come thick and fast while GTC/Plex's are in existence. This is supposed to be a game (fantasy!) when it has real world implications its crossed the line, especially when it condoned by CCP. Get rid of plex's and this sort of thing will pale, I'm all for scam's becuase if you fall for them more you fool you, but scam's shouldn't transverse game play into the real world. I know what your going to say ppl sell isk and items in the real world, well there is a leagal frame work that covers that which is supported but ccp Bob CCP You are mistaken. PLEX actually is a means for CCP to curtail the RMT market. A casual player who wants to make a few hundred million in seed money can do so reasonably safely and legally. Now, whether you agree that should or should not be, it takes money out of the pockets of RMT people. There is no way to "cash out" ISK via PLEX except having the game subscription paid for free. People who "sell" ISK via RMT sites do not get nearly the same return as the value of PLEX, and could easily get scammed themselves. Do you think they will wire you cash before you turn over the ISK? If he goes RMT he won't be making anywhere NEAR the "street value" of this ISK people are bandying about. For many reasons, including supply and demand.
Ratchman	Posted - 2010.09.07 15:38:00 - [263] I can't believe people are still falling for these scams all the time. No matter how official and cosher-looking it is, your investment is instantly at risk. You should assume that your money is gone as soon as you have handed it over to someone else. Remember Brenie Madeoff? Someone with a sterling reputation and a legitimate looking scheme? Real-life business couldn't throw money at him fast enough. And what happens? They lose the lot. Companies are no more wise than in-game investors. Time and again they fall for the same tricks, and make the same mistakes. Bad Bobby didn't even make that much effort to hide his intentions. Still, one thing occurred to me while reading this column, and that is the idea that you can be petitioned for offending someone in local. This can end up in a ban from the game, because the victim has been left in a state of distress (or so it goes). How then, do we justify scamming as a legitimate activity, when it can cause distress as well? Is this a double-standard? I'm kind of curious how things like this are going to play out, as it is only a matter of time before someone tries taking this down a legal route (should they lose a sufficient amount in-game). Would they hold CCP responsible? Or the individual who did the scam? I believe similar things have happened in other games, so it is something to bear in mind. In-game items have been ruled as 'real' property in some cases, so there is a legal precedent. There's also an interesting economic question. If this happens enough times, is it likely to topple the in-game economy, as relatively few people would end up with the large majority of cash. Or would this just end up with those who can manufacture bleeding those with bags of ISK dry simply because they can? Would the value of ISK be so devalued that it becomes worthless? Not like this is going to happen, because there's plenty of cyncial bastards like me in this game that wouldn't touch those things with a ten-foot barge pole, but it is theoretically possible, and with people seeing this as a highscore to beat, there will be intent.
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking	Posted - 2010.09.07 15:56:00 - [264] Edited by: corestwo on 07/09/2010 16:05:23 Edited by: corestwo on 07/09/2010 15:56:15 Originally by: GX307 I'm calling BS on cosmoray. Lets say the player behind Bad Bobby makes a new alt tomorrow called Good Bobby. And as you suggest he's just playing the game RP'ing or whatever and says: "On Good Bobby i'm going to be all good! And if some opportunity comes along where I can take all the isk from my brand new Super Good Bond of Goodness, i'm not going to take it, you can trust me this time, scouts honor!" Please explain how you are going to invest in any of Good Bobby's bonds or ventures or whatever and that the person behind the in game character isn't a factor in your decision. Calling BS on you, because it's a stupid argument. The line of reasoning isn't "He stole isk in-game, he must be a horrible person IRL, so I won't invest in him", it's "He stole isk in-game, he can't be trusted in-game, so I won't invest in him." His out of game personality doesn't enter into the evaluation at all. Originally by: Bill Alt Obviously, the point where these kinds of things cross the line is entirely subjective. You could carry the ôvalueö argument to a ridiculous extreme by pointing out that even Eve spaceships have value, and thus blowing them up is theft. I think itÆs safe to say that most everyone would regard that as a silly position. Oh, so a crime only crosses the line when its of a certain size? Originally by: Bill Alt On the other hand, stealing the equivalent of thousands of dollars of isk crosses a line somewhere, and reasonable, ethical people see that. ItÆs the position that real value has not been taken from real people in significant amounts that appears lacking in intelligence or logic. The fact that it was through a game mechanism make legal sense, but not moral sense. No, sorry. The only "line that was crossed" here is perhaps the line that marked the size of the largest scam to date. Also, I don't think that myself, cosmoray, nor SencneS is arguing that nothing of real value was taken from people. The point of dispute is entirely on the whole "someone who would do X ingame would/would not do X IRL". Isk was taken, that took people real time to make. Even ignoring the dubiously legitimate isk <-> $$ conversion, that means it has value. Bringing it up and trying to say that that's really what we mean really is a strawman; SencneS's comparison was not. Originally by: Ratchman There's also an interesting economic question. If this happens enough times, is it likely to topple the in-game economy, as relatively few people would end up with the large majority of cash. Or would this just end up with those who can manufacture bleeding those with bags of ISK dry simply because they can? Would the value of ISK be so devalued that it becomes worthless? Not like this is going to happen, because there's plenty of cyncial bastards like me in this game that wouldn't touch those things with a ten-foot barge pole, but it is theoretically possible, and with people seeing this as a highscore to beat, there will be intent. No.
Bill Alt	Posted - 2010.09.07 16:11:00 - [265] Originally by: SencneS Originally by: Bill Alt So next time you want to attempt a Ad hominem make sure you use the right terms numb nuts. Are you an angry person in real life, or is it only on the netz? There's help. Incidently, stawman works fine. Thanks. We should stop "dicussing" this, since you've spoken?
Dzil Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve OWN Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.07 16:52:00 - [266] Originally by: GX307 I'm calling BS on cosmoray. Lets say the player behind Bad Bobby makes a new alt tomorrow called Good Bobby. And as you suggest he's just playing the game RP'ing or whatever and says: "On Good Bobby i'm going to be all good! And if some opportunity comes along where I can take all the isk from my brand new Super Good Bond of Goodness, i'm not going to take it, you can trust me this time, scouts honor!" Please explain how you are going to invest in any of Good Bobby's bonds or ventures or whatever and that the person behind the in game character isn't a factor in your decision. Well if we take this back to the analogy of diplomacy (which is far better than my poker analogy, but I don't play it), if last game someone lied to you about their intentions and backstabbed you, would you trust them this game? Probably not. Should you trust another player instead? You could... for a while. It's difficult to say whether the betrayal ensuring certain victory in one game is a viable strategy, given it could weaken your winning chances in future sessions when no one trusts you. On the other hand, are you even planning on ever playing the game again? Hence, "some people are playing a different game". This problem interestingly reappears in other moral decision games, like Prisoner's dilemma. In classic Prisoner's dilemma, both sides gain a self serving advantage by betraying their accomplice, even though they'd be better off cooperating. In perhaps a more interesting scenario, the iterative prisoner's dilemma, the pair face the same question over and over again, and thus how you behave can have negative impacts on your future performance as well. Most optimal strategies involve some kind of cooperative tit-for-tat system, where you go in cooperating, and when someone betrays that trust then you betray them back next round. While this certainly doesn't guarantee your safety, there's at least a sense of justice that some self serving backstabber is going down with you. And perhaps, this justice will course correct the backstabber into cooperating, if not for your benefit, then for his own. As a final thought, while tit-for-tat usually gives a favorable result in iterative prisoner's dilemma, since a side ultimately gains more short term benefit from betrayal, the final round (if known) becomes a bit different, because without a future to be concerned about, both sides are back to betrayal as the optimal strategy. And extrapolating, if you know the other guy will betray you in the last round, the you might as well go ahead and betray him the round before. And so on backwards. Therefore tit-for-tat only really works if you don't know when the music will stop. And THIS - this is the key advantage the scammer has on the scammed in EVE. For the scammer runs his con and walks off, he's no longer forced to continue playing the MD investment game as a scammer - he either stops playing altogether, or takes on an alias/alt to continue his presence on the forums where investments are concerned. But above all else, let us remember this: it's just a game. If you don't trust someone with your isk who openly acknowledges it's just a game, so be it: don't invest in them or trust them with your collateral, etc. But I don't really trust that guy more or less than someone that professes some deeper, higher meaning. Even if they believe it now, when their son is in trouble, their family's house is on the line, or maybe they just experience a moment of disillusionment ... I believe they'll see EVE like I do: just a game. Retired from corp sales. Time to spend some of this on pretty explosions :)
Berikath	Posted - 2010.09.07 17:41:00 - [267] Originally by: Bill Alt On the other hand, stealing the equivalent of thousands of dollars of isk crosses a line somewhere, and reasonable, ethical people see that. ItÆs the position that real value has not been taken from real people in significant amounts that appears lacking in intelligence or logic. The fact that it was through a game mechanism make legal sense, but not moral sense. I would disagree. I would say that, ethically, stealing is either wrong or it is not; in general I think most would agree that theft is ethically wrong. However, EVE is not "normal", it is a game- one which, in certain aspects, it is by design very different from real life. Note- for the purposes of this argument, I'm assuming that forums are part of the "game". In, for instance, World of Warcraft any scamming is considered "illegal". If you are legitimately scammed, you can put in a ticket and get your property or money back by the "police" (aka, GMs). However, EVE is a game built around the idea that anything within intended game mechanics is allowed, including scamming. So long as your scam does not abuse game mechanics or venture out of the game world, I would say that ethically it remains the same (regardless of size). If BB had somehow influenced people to invest using something outside the game, or had taken investments in legal currency or something only available in legal currency (such as a GTC), that would be an entirely different ethical situation. It would also be different if the ISK he scammed could somehow (legally) be converted BACK to legal currency. Since that is not the case, he just scammed some pixels in a game; how the people he got them from acquired them is irrelevant.
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.09.07 17:48:00 - [268] Originally by: cosmoray I am calling BS on the people who say that scammers in Eve are somewhat dishonest in RL, or certainly that is being implied here. There are no rules preventing scamming in Eve. It is not against the EULA. Perhaps people might like to commit crimes in the fantsay world which they wouldn't do in RL. It's part of a GAME, it is not neccesarily some indictment on the character. Too many people need to get off their high horses that they have the same morales in RL as in Eve or that they don't lie in RL or bluff in RL. I have lied and bluffed my bosses at work for a bigger pay rise. Am I bad person, well I couldn't care what people think as I have more money coming into my house for me and my wife. Anyone who says they would never lie/bluff to better their lives or who have never lied, I will show you someone who is a liar. Its ironic that if you google "fantasy escalation" it seems its just "a game".. but add psychology and some interesting facts emerge.. There is a big difference between small socially functional borderline fantasy, and the big ones.. I have seen how some types seems to slip down into more and more sociopathic behaviour, sure its not everyone that is at risk, but the high horse statements are just as natural as a protective/precaution behaviour, as its opposite.. Game theory 101 imho.. Tycoon wannabe go here: SCC Lounge cocktails and Dreams.
cosmoray Cosmoray Holdings Corp	Posted - 2010.09.07 18:03:00 - [269] The link has my favorite example of Prisoner's Dilemna. The UK TV show Golden Balls is based on the prisoners dilemna premise, where contestants could potentially split a large cash pool, or attempt to "steal it". If both players choose split they share the pot, if they both choose "steal" they both get nothing, one chooses "steal" and the other doesn't then the "steal" gets all. Look at them try to convince each other they are going to split. 100K Golden Balls link You can all talk about character as much as you like, but I would pick "steal" every time. I would either get all or nothing, but I suppose I would be more hurt by losing it all if I chose "split" and was outplayed. Also no consequences for "stealing" all the cash, and I wouldn't feel bad about some poor sap who I don't know anyway. Those people who call my character into question but I would walk across the "line" in Akita's theoretical dilemna every day of the week. $100K with no consequences, no brainer.
Bill Alt	Posted - 2010.09.07 18:12:00 - [270] Interesting spin on an old dilemma. I guess I'm a split guy.
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2010.09.07 18:29:00 - [271] Edited by: SencneS on 07/09/2010 18:29:57 Originally by: Bill Alt Are you an angry person in real life, or is it only on the netz? There's help. Incidently, stawman works fine. Thanks. We should stop "discussing" this, since you've spoken? No, not an angry person in real life, I'm actually pretty content with everyone. Though if I may ask a question about your personality as you did mine. Are you just as blissfully ignorant in real life as you are on the interwebs? Feel free to continue discussing whatever you want, but if you want to appear more intelligent then you are currently being perceived, then you should seriously look up meanings of terms and phrases before you attempt to elevate yourself at the self deluded expense of others. Edit:- Quote fix Amarr for Life
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.07 18:30:00 - [272] Quote: Also no consequences for "stealing" all the cash, and I wouldn't feel bad about some poor sap who I don't know anyway. Those people who call my character into question but I would walk across the "line" in Akita's theoretical dilemna every day of the week. $100K with no consequences, no brainer. Now I feel alone. You too have a price. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2010.09.07 18:32:00 - [273] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Now I feel alone. You too have a price. You're not alone VV, though I dread the idea of you and I alone together.. Amarr for Life
GX307	Posted - 2010.09.07 18:40:00 - [274] Originally by: corestwo Originally by: GX307 I'm calling BS on cosmoray. Lets say the player behind Bad Bobby makes a new alt tomorrow called Good Bobby. And as you suggest he's just playing the game RP'ing or whatever and says: "On Good Bobby i'm going to be all good! And if some opportunity comes along where I can take all the isk from my brand new Super Good Bond of Goodness, i'm not going to take it, you can trust me this time, scouts honor!" Please explain how you are going to invest in any of Good Bobby's bonds or ventures or whatever and that the person behind the in game character isn't a factor in your decision. Calling BS on you, because it's a stupid argument. The line of reasoning isn't "He stole isk in-game, he must be a horrible person IRL, so I won't invest in him", it's "He stole isk in-game, he can't be trusted in-game, so I won't invest in him." His out of game personality doesn't enter into the evaluation at all. 2 questions for you then: Would you invest in Bad/Good Bobby in this game now or ever? And if we extend this line of thinking where you find Bad/Good Bobby in Sandbox Game 2 offering a Bond of Goodness would you invest in that one? I'll suggest that the highest probability is you answer no to both, if you are stubborn on this point you will suggest some caveat or niche case where you would invest but its unlikely you would give a blanket yes answer to either question. Either way I disagree that the person behind the character isn't a factor, we are not actors, personal choice is not constrained in any way.
WHATSYOURPLEASURE	Posted - 2010.09.07 18:56:00 - [275] The phrase 'just a game' comes up a lot. I've never really received an answer to my first question, but I'll go ahead and pose more. Is there such a thing as a game with content that is unacceptably horrific (e.g. pedophilia)? If so, why is it unacceptable? If not, why not? Is there anything at all that is unacceptable if it were presented through a game? If a person plays a game that is unacceptable, does it indicate anything about him? Why or why not? I'm sure you see where I'm headed with this. Many of you are saying 'its just a game' as though labeling something a game excuses its participants from ethical or moral considerations. I want to see if you can make your point an absolute one. If its just a game, then there are no limits and everything is permitted. If you come up with even one exception, then there must be a basis for it. If there is a basis, then nothing is just a game. There's also my first question--why do enjoy doing bad?
Jasdemi Solaris Project	Posted - 2010.09.07 19:01:00 - [276] System message: Bad Bobby, you've just won the game. Please select how you'd like to continue: 1. Exit 2. Start from the beginning 3. Play the BONUS Adventure level: "Crusade Of A Forum Warrior" =-=-=-=-= REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS!
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking	Posted - 2010.09.07 19:11:00 - [277] Edited by: corestwo on 07/09/2010 19:15:18 Originally by: GX307 Edited by: GX307 on 07/09/2010 19:04:57 Edit my 2nd sentence to add with and known alt. Originally by: corestwo Originally by: GX307 I'm calling BS on cosmoray. Lets say the player behind Bad Bobby makes a new alt tomorrow called Good Bobby. And as you suggest he's just playing the game RP'ing or whatever and says: "On Good Bobby i'm going to be all good! And if some opportunity comes along where I can take all the isk from my brand new Super Good Bond of Goodness, i'm not going to take it, you can trust me this time, scouts honor!" Please explain how you are going to invest in any of Good Bobby's bonds or ventures or whatever and that the person behind the in game character isn't a factor in your decision. Calling BS on you, because it's a stupid argument. The line of reasoning isn't "He stole isk in-game, he must be a horrible person IRL, so I won't invest in him", it's "He stole isk in-game, he can't be trusted in-game, so I won't invest in him." His out of game personality doesn't enter into the evaluation at all. 2 questions for you then: Would you invest with Bad/Good Bobby or any other known alt in this game now or ever? And if we extend this line of thinking where you find Bad/Good Bobby in Sandbox Game 2 offering a Bond of Goodness would you invest in that one? I'll suggest that the highest probability is you answer no to both, if you are stubborn on this point you will suggest some caveat or niche case where you would invest but its unlikely you would give a blanket yes answer to either question. Either way I disagree that the person behind the character isn't a factor, we are not actors, personal choice is not constrained in any way. I wouldn't invest in either because the secondary market is, to me, nothing but a source of constant entertainment, mostly due to things like this. That and the fact that people keep trying to make it work But to answer your hypothetical with another hypothetical, if it was a known alt in this game or another sandbox that allowed scamming and such actions, then no, I wouldn't invest. He's shown that he's willing to make the choice to scam or steal in-game, and so it is a reasonable assumption that he'd do it again. I would argue, however, that allowing oneself to make that choice, to pursue an action that some (or many) would view as "immoral" in a game, does not mean you would make the same choice in a RL situation. Basically, I'm only letting BB's actions in-game affect my view on him in-game; if I met him IRL, I'm not going to automatically assume he's going to lie, cheat, and steal my wallet.
Berikath	Posted - 2010.09.07 19:17:00 - [278] Originally by: corestwo I would argue, however, that allowing oneself to make that choice, to pursue an action that some (or many) would view as "immoral" in a game, does not mean you would make the same choice in a RL situation. And I would argue that if someone does not have any problem with scamming in theory, game or no, that the likelihood of them scamming in any situation where they thought they could get away with it would be SIGNIFICANTLY above average. Just because there isn't an absolute, direct 1-to-1 correlation between the two doesn't mean there isn't any correlation.
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking	Posted - 2010.09.07 19:32:00 - [279] Originally by: Berikath Originally by: corestwo I would argue, however, that allowing oneself to make that choice, to pursue an action that some (or many) would view as "immoral" in a game, does not mean you would make the same choice in a RL situation. And I would argue that if someone does not have any problem with scamming in theory, game or no, that the likelihood of them scamming in any situation where they thought they could get away with it would be SIGNIFICANTLY above average. Just because there isn't an absolute, direct 1-to-1 correlation between the two doesn't mean there isn't any correlation. Last I checked a correlation - especially one based on a nebulous opinion with no evidence to back it up - does not equal causation.
GX307	Posted - 2010.09.07 19:58:00 - [280] Quote: I would argue, however, that allowing oneself to make that choice, to pursue an action that some (or many) would view as "immoral" in a game, does not mean you would make the same choice in a RL situation. I hear you, i'm not disagreeing, just taking a hard look at personal choices in game and how far the effects extend. With only the evidence at hand, if we extended the hypothetical out to real life, would you invest? I find my answer interesting, but based on some of the comments i'm more interested in others.
Bill Alt	Posted - 2010.09.07 22:05:00 - [281] Originally by: SencneS No, not an angry person in real life, I'm actually pretty content with everyone. Though if I may ask a question about your personality as you did mine. Are you just as blissfully ignorant in real life as you are on the interwebs? Feel free to continue discussing whatever you want, but if you want to appear more intelligent then you are currently being perceived, then you should seriously look up meanings of terms and phrases before you attempt to elevate yourself at the self deluded expense of others. Stop, please. You're cracking me up. [/response] With regard to the point "it's just a game..." That's really what makes this interesting. It's really more than just a game in the traditional sense, but less than real life. It crosses the boundries. I suppose the fact that it's being argued about points to it not being cut and dry. It will be interesting too, to see if in the next few years, international laws are discussed to address these kinds of gray areas. Not sure if there's really any any kind of useful anology in other forms of comunications.
Bill Alt	Posted - 2010.09.07 22:17:00 - [282] Originally by: corestwo Last I checked a correlation - especially one based on a nebulous opinion with no evidence to back it up - does not equal causation. Entirely opinion. We're all just presenting opinions, unless someone has seen a study related to this kind of thing. Still, were I interviewing folks for a job, and one person said for fun he's a pirate on an MMO, I wouldn't think anything of it. If another guy said, "yeah, I netted the equivalent of 50K running a scam on players in an MMO and thought it was funny as hell" it would factor into my decision. I wouldn't throw him out of the office, but all other things being equal, I'd look for applicants whose integrity I had no reason to wonder about.
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2010.09.07 23:17:00 - [283] Originally by: Bill Alt With regard to the point "it's just a game..." That's really what makes this interesting. It's really more than just a game in the traditional sense, but less than real life. It crosses the boundries. I suppose the fact that it's being argued about points to it not being cut and dry. It will be interesting too, to see if in the next few years, international laws are discussed to address these kinds of gray areas. Not sure if there's really any any kind of useful anology in other forms of comunications. I've never said "it's just a game" either.. What I am refuting since you are clearly missing the point is... The actions people take in one realm may not be the actions people take in another. I enjoy being immersed into a realm where I have to shoot other people or be shot myself. I also enjoy being immersed into a realm where I am a high profile director if a bank which has seen its CEO run off with 70% of it's wealth. I also enjoy being immersed into a realm where I am the commander of an army who have to defend against alien creatures. This is a fantasy land, a fantasy you're able to participate in. What you and very few others are trying to say is, the actions one does in a fantasy land is parallel to those actions the same person will take in non-fantasy. You could go so far as to say that if you fantasize about something, you mentally want to do it but are unable to in real life. That is about as close to the argument you are making will ever get. The error in thinking this is, in the fantasy land, you're enabled to perform those actions, you can kill someone, you can rob them blind, you can have sex with a giant clam if you want to. In the alternative realm known as EVE you are encouraged to kill/pilfer/scam. This is almost exactly opposite to real life where you are discouraged to kill/pilfer/scam. Saying that the actions of one person in one realm are the same as the same person in a different realm is too simple, it's the easy no brainer explanation for self assurance. The two realms are not equal, they do not match up. Saying the person is the same in either realm is a little short sighted considering the environment, the social order, the ethics, the morals, on both realms are radically different. Amarr for Life
Jamie Banks Gallente Wasted and Still Mining	Posted - 2010.09.07 23:31:00 - [284] Don't hate the player, hate the game. _______________________________ Join in-game Channel 'Aussies' AU/NZ Corp Register
Bill Alt	Posted - 2010.09.08 00:09:00 - [285] Originally by: SencneS I've never said "it's just a game" either.. I didn't say you did. I completed my response to your last post and moved on to a point raised by others. That seemed fairly clear to me. Perhaps it wasn't. Originally by: SencneS What I am refuting since you are clearly missing the point is... The actions people take in one realm may not be the actions people take in another. I enjoy being immersed into a realm where I have to shoot other people or be shot myself. I also enjoy being immersed into a realm where I am a high profile director if a bank which has seen its CEO run off with 70% of it's wealth. I also enjoy being immersed into a realm where I am the commander of an army who have to defend against alien creatures. This is a fantasy land, a fantasy you're able to participate in. What you and very few others are trying to say is, the actions one does in a fantasy land is parallel to those actions the same person will take in non-fantasy. You could go so far as to say that if you fantasize about something, you mentally want to do it but are unable to in real life. That is about as close to the argument you are making will ever get. The error in thinking this is, in the fantasy land, you're enabled to perform those actions, you can kill someone, you can rob them blind, you can have sex with a giant clam if you want to. In the alternative realm known as EVE you are encouraged to kill/pilfer/scam. This is almost exactly opposite to real life where you are discouraged to kill/pilfer/scam. Saying that the actions of one person in one realm are the same as the same person in a different realm is too simple, it's the easy no brainer explanation for self assurance. The two realms are not equal, they do not match up. Saying the person is the same in either realm is a little short sighted considering the environment, the social order, the ethics, the morals, on both realms are radically different. With fatique I get the point just fine. Perhaps you are not understanding the actual argument. Not sure how many times we'll need to repeat "a pirate here doesn't make a murderer there." Obviously, the realms are different. Everyone get that? M'kay. However, many of us are of the opinion that there is some degree of cross-over, particularly when it involves a scale such as this. You don't agree? That's outstanding for you. You might even be right.
Aurora Robotnik Caldari United Kings R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.09.08 04:29:00 - [286] Wow, all these people who are jumping out now to say "told you so". Confirms the fail of this thread. Do it... IN A KESTREL.
RAW23	Posted - 2010.09.08 14:58:00 - [287] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Originally by: RAW23 Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Such a shame.. wish I had more time for the game otherwise I would have been in here screaming from the tops of the mountains not to create anymore shares. At least I know I voted against it. Against the creation of holding company shares or public shares? Because the creation of the latter was irrelevant to the scam, other than that it increased Bobby's prize pot somewhat. It was the former that allowed the scam to take place. Both actually "Absent" trustee is best trustee.
Dariah Stardweller Gallente Gung-Ho	Posted - 2010.09.08 15:36:00 - [288] Originally by: Bill Alt With regard to the point "it's just a game..." That's really what makes this interesting. It's really more than just a game in the traditional sense, but less than real life. It crosses the boundries. I suppose the fact that it's being argued about points to it not being cut and dry. It will be interesting too, to see if in the next few years, international laws are discussed to address these kinds of gray areas. Not sure if there's really any any kind of useful anology in other forms of comunications. If this sort of stuff crosses the boundries for you you might wanna get a new hobby.... Inappropriate signature removed. Zymurgist
Johnny ReeRee The ReeRee Brigade	Posted - 2010.09.08 16:26:00 - [289] Just posting to laugh here. I can't believe after all the scams that people are STILL sinking money into these toy corporations. People really want to role-play INVESTOR-MAN that badly? Join some Yahoo stock-picking game. I'm especially laughing over VV, who defended these toy corporations before trying to carve out a niche as their watch-dog, as if there's anything at all book keeping process can do to prevent scams in a game where the mechanics and incentives are all in favor of scammers. Here's a hint: your auditing is worthless. The only issue here is when will people scam, which depends entirely on the person and the circumstances. The apparatus of accountancy in Eve is 100% meaningless. If you send your money off to someone, it's gone. If you get anything back, grats to you! 850 billion? I would definitely scam that if I had the chance. ----------------- Join the ReeRee Brigade!
Berikath	Posted - 2010.09.08 17:01:00 - [290] Originally by: corestwo Edited by: corestwo on 07/09/2010 19:44:12 Edited by: corestwo on 07/09/2010 19:43:51 Edited by: corestwo on 07/09/2010 19:38:20 Edited by: corestwo on 07/09/2010 19:38:04 Originally by: Berikath Originally by: corestwo I would argue, however, that allowing oneself to make that choice, to pursue an action that some (or many) would view as "immoral" in a game, does not mean you would make the same choice in a RL situation. And I would argue that if someone does not have any problem with scamming in theory, game or no, that the likelihood of them scamming in any situation where they thought they could get away with it would be SIGNIFICANTLY above average. Just because there isn't an absolute, direct 1-to-1 correlation between the two doesn't mean there isn't any correlation. Last I checked a correlation - especially one based on a nebulous opinion with no evidence to back it up - does not equal causation. e: What's the basis for your argument? I don't know for sure but for all I know its something along the lines of "I believe myself a moral person and I would never lie/cheat/steal IRL or ingame, so anyone who would lie/cheat/steal ingame probably does so IRL too", which is even sillier than the idea that there's a correlation to begin with. Ok- my argument(s): Argument 1: There are people who simply would not cheat/steal/scam others, in-game or out-of-game. If someone has scammed in-game, they have proven that they are not one of these people. If you assume the chance that they would scam IRL is the same as the average of the entire population minus the people who would never scam, that will be higher than the average chance if you picked completely random person A. Argument 2: EVE is a fictional world which honestly has very little in the way of repercussions for your actions. By scamming (especially large, involved scams), the scammer has shown that they get some kind of intrinsic reward from scamming; the rush, or the feeling of superiority, or just the calculated choice to get what they want easily but dishonestly. Since the judgment of whether it is worth it to scam is always qualitative and the person has no problem with (and perhaps even enjoys) scamming, the question is not whether they would consider scamming (since obviously they do), but what is their specific tipping point for risk vs. reward.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.08 17:09:00 - [291] Quote: I'm especially laughing over VV, who defended these toy corporations before trying to carve out a niche as their watch-dog Can you point out the precise place of where and when did I defend them? Otherwise your laugh is a buffoon chirp. Furthermore, if you don't like virtual tychoons, there are a lot of other forums for you to flee at. If guys here like to roleplay whatever and lose 100 billions a day, it's their sandbox, their option, their money. Quote: 850 billion? I would definitely scam that if I had the chance. I haven't the slightest doubt about that. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Fitz VonHeise Eye Bee Em Stellar Defense Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.08 18:18:00 - [292] I've added this thief to my list below. If anyone knows the names of any of his alts please let me know via email. (I could miss them if you post them here.) ♣ Bad Bobby Proof Services I Provide: Alliance Creation ● Caldari Standings ● Thieves Of EvE ● My Links ● POS Setups What Makes Me Tick
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking	Posted - 2010.09.08 18:29:00 - [293] Originally by: Berikath Ok- my argument(s): Argument 1: There are people who simply would not cheat/steal/scam others, in-game or out-of-game. If someone has scammed in-game, they have proven that they are not one of these people. If you assume the chance that they would scam IRL is the same as the average of the entire population minus the people who would never scam, that will be higher than the average chance if you picked completely random person A. So basically you're arguing that someone who scams in-game has the same average chance as the rest of the general population to scam as anyone else, but that removing people who would "never" scam/steal/cheat somehow changes that average, but only for the people who already have shown that they'll scam in-game? Averages don't work that way, just fyi. Removing those paragons who would never do it from the equation changes the average, but for everyone. You might want to re-think that argument, or if you mean something else, present it more clearly. Originally by: Berikath Argument 2: EVE is a fictional world which honestly has very little in the way of repercussions for your actions. By scamming (especially large, involved scams), the scammer has shown that they get some kind of intrinsic reward from scamming; the rush, or the feeling of superiority, or just the calculated choice to get what they want easily but dishonestly. Since the judgment of whether it is worth it to scam is always qualitative and the person has no problem with (and perhaps even enjoys) scamming, the question is not whether they would consider scamming (since obviously they do), but what is their specific tipping point for risk vs. reward. People play games for a thrill of some form or another. Some just like to mindlessly rat, others like to pretend they're savvy investors (). I'm a mass murderer ingame - some of my thrills come from cruising around and killing hapless ratters and then evading the vengeful defenders that come to stop me. Doesn't mean any of us do what we d for a thrill in-game IRL too, or even that we have some "higher chance" to do so. Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha If guys here like to roleplay whatever and lose 100 billions a day, it's their sandbox, their option, their money. If people liked roleplaying as investors who get screwed, there would be far fewer tears and far more cheers.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.09.08 18:31:00 - [294] Corestwo is a goon member so his argument is invalid!
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking	Posted - 2010.09.08 18:31:00 - [295] Originally by: Ji Sama Corestwo is a goon member so his argument is invalid! Ad hominem is not a valid form of debate
Berikath	Posted - 2010.09.08 18:57:00 - [296] Originally by: corestwo Originally by: Berikath Ok- my argument(s): Argument 1: There are people who simply would not cheat/steal/scam others, in-game or out-of-game. If someone has scammed in-game, they have proven that they are not one of these people. If you assume the chance that they would scam IRL is the same as the average of the entire population minus the people who would never scam, that will be higher than the average chance if you picked completely random person A. So basically you're arguing that someone who scams in-game has the same average chance as the rest of the general population to scam as anyone else, but that removing people who would "never" scam/steal/cheat somehow changes that average, but only for the people who already have shown that they'll scam in-game? Averages don't work that way, just fyi. Removing those paragons who would never do it from the equation changes the average, but for everyone. You might want to re-think that argument, or if you mean something else, present it more clearly. No. Say we have 10 people. Let's say person 1 would never scam in game or IRL. Person 2 scams in game. If you pick one random person from 1 to 10, the average chance they'd scam is.... say, 20%- that's if you pick a person completely at random. However, you know person 1 would never scam and person 2 might at some point, so the average chance of everyone EXCEPT person 1 is higher... say, 25%. Since you are removing an outlier at the far end of the spectrum, the average will shift away from that end of the spectrum. Yes, it is an overly-simplistic argument with essentially no merit on an individual basis, since it's getting an average of something which MIGHT happen... but on a large scale in more general terms, it is more reasonable. Quote: Originally by: Berikath Argument 2: EVE is a fictional world which honestly has very little in the way of repercussions for your actions. By scamming (especially large, involved scams), the scammer has shown that they get some kind of intrinsic reward from scamming; the rush, or the feeling of superiority, or just the calculated choice to get what they want easily but dishonestly. Since the judgment of whether it is worth it to scam is always qualitative and the person has no problem with (and perhaps even enjoys) scamming, the question is not whether they would consider scamming (since obviously they do), but what is their specific tipping point for risk vs. reward. People play games for a thrill of some form or another. Some just like to mindlessly rat, others like to pretend they're savvy investors (). I'm a mass murderer ingame - some of my thrills come from cruising around and killing hapless ratters and then evading the vengeful defenders that come to stop me. Doesn't mean any of us do what we d for a thrill in-game IRL too, or even that we have some "higher chance" to do so. Your character may be a "mass murderer" in game, but the actual action you're doing isn't equivalent to murder. It is more equivalent to taking somebody's lunch money. On some level, you enjoy having power over other people and demonstrating that power by harming them a little bit. I would say that this makes you MORE likely to abuse whatever power you get than someone who finds the notion reprehensible.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.08 18:57:00 - [297] Quote: If people liked roleplaying as investors who get screwed, there would be far fewer tears and far more cheers Apparently they like to roleplay that, otherwise they'd smart up and start investing properly. Instead they play the headless: "I play Rockfeller with this funny chap who asks me for money" - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Cheque Please Hot Like Mexico	Posted - 2010.09.08 18:58:00 - [298] Originally by: corestwo People play games for a thrill of some form or another. Some just like to mindlessly rat, others like to pretend they're savvy investors (). I'm a mass murderer ingame - some of my thrills come from cruising around and killing hapless ratters and then evading the vengeful defenders that come to stop me. Doesn't mean any of us do what we d for a thrill in-game IRL too, or even that we have some "higher chance" to do so. Exactly. Take me, for example. I'm a mass-murderering cruise ship pirate IRL, so I get my kicks by pretending I'm a law-abiding and upstanding hedge fund manager in EVE. --- WORMHOLE SERVICE RL Meeting w/ Chribba
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking	Posted - 2010.09.08 19:12:00 - [299] Edited by: corestwo on 08/09/2010 19:15:36 Edited by: corestwo on 08/09/2010 19:15:16 Edited by: corestwo on 08/09/2010 19:14:31 Originally by: Berikath No. Say we have 10 people. Let's say person 1 would never scam in game or IRL. Person 2 scams in game. If you pick one random person from 1 to 10, the average chance they'd scam is.... say, 20%- that's if you pick a person completely at random. However, you know person 1 would never scam and person 2 might at some point, so the average chance of everyone EXCEPT person 1 is higher... say, 25%. Since you are removing an outlier at the far end of the spectrum, the average will shift away from that end of the spectrum. Yes, it is an overly-simplistic argument with essentially no merit on an individual basis, since it's getting an average of something which MIGHT happen... but on a large scale in more general terms, it is more reasonable. You just said exactly what I said (at least I think you did) and its still meritless. Yes, removing the outlier shifts the average upwards for the remaining sample! Congratulations on this stunning mathematical development, it's still completely irrelevant. Originally by: Berikath Your character may be a "mass murderer" in game, but the actual action you're doing isn't equivalent to murder. It is more equivalent to taking somebody's lunch money. On some level, you enjoy having power over other people and demonstrating that power by harming them a little bit. I would say that this makes you MORE likely to abuse whatever power you get than someone who finds the notion reprehensible. Since your hypothesis, carried to an extreme, leads to the whole "Violent video games cause people to go shoot up schools" idea that I find to be laughable at best, here is an alternative hypothesis. In the "average" person, indulging their sadistic, sociopathic, or psychotic tendencies through a game makes it less likely that they'll go off and go do something like that IRL; essentially, the game is a safety valve, allowing one to blow off stress/tension/anger/whatever in any way they see fit. Only in people who really do have a problem (and such people tend to be statistical outliers) is that safety valve insufficient...or alternatively, only such people would think to themselves, "I wonder what doing this IRL would feel like." Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: If people liked roleplaying as investors who get screwed, there would be far fewer tears and far more cheers Apparently they like to roleplay that, otherwise they'd smart up and start investing properly. Instead they play the headless: "I play Rockfeller with this funny chap who asks me for money" So they get their thrills from losing all their money but are roleplaying that it really does bother them? That's deep man!
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.08 20:32:00 - [300] Quote: So they get their thrills from losing all their money but are roleplaying that it really does bother them? That's deep man! Well, you might try asking them for the hows and whys, I didn't invest a nickel so far. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Gabriel Virtus hirr	Posted - 2010.09.08 22:03:00 - [301] LOL! Bobby = trash. Investors = fools. I bought 10m in shares at the start of this IPO because I wanted a share in a scam, like a stated when the IPO was created. BB was full of it, everyone knew it, people spouted it throughout the entire IPO thread. The dude literally stated the ONLY reason he doesn't scam is because it is worth it not to - to the tune of a trillion isk. Yet another major failure on the part of the trustees and "trusted" MD community. It was a complete scam and at least one of them helped in the scam. The fact that three (right?) of the trustees can claim that they had nothing to do with the scam makes it so none of them will accept any blame. People honestly didn't wonder why he kept "expanding" the IPO. It was so incredibly obvious he was pumping it for everything it was worth. So... I told you so? -GV
Fitz VonHeise Eye Bee Em Stellar Defense Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.08 22:16:00 - [302] I've added this thief to my list below. (As well as some alts name) If anyone knows the names of any more of his alts please let me know via email. (I could miss them if you post them here.) ♣ Bad Bobby Alts: Mornington Crescent, Titans 4U, Mr SnaffleProof Services I Provide: Alliance Creation ● Caldari Standings ● Thieves Of EvE ● My Links ● POS Setups What Makes Me Tick
Tekota legion industries ltd Veni Vidi Vici Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.08 22:57:00 - [303] Edited by: Tekota on 08/09/2010 23:01:12 Originally by: Fitz VonHeise I've added this thief to my list below. (As well as some alts name) If anyone knows the names of any more of his alts please let me know via email. (I could miss them if you post them here.) ♣ Bad Bobby Alts: Mornington Crescent, Titans 4U, Mr SnaffleProof online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=603530[/limegreen][/center] http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1106485&page=72#2135 has some more.
Bill Alt	Posted - 2010.09.08 23:01:00 - [304] Originally by: Dariah Stardweller If this sort of stuff crosses the boundries for you you might wanna get a new hobby.... Ya think? Well that's a very inciteful comment into this complex and interesting topic, but I think I'll stay for now. Looks like both Eve and RL could use some more pathologically honest folks.
Misty McGinnity	Posted - 2010.09.09 00:47:00 - [305] Originally by: Gabriel Virtus LOL! Bobby = exploiter of greedy accounting type's, Investors = Butthurt. ~lecture paragraph's removed~ -GV Fixed^^ Greed, well done on an awesome scam champ. Now buy a a few new toons/accounts, rinse & repeat. -Misty.
Berikath	Posted - 2010.09.09 03:26:00 - [306] Originally by: corestwo You just said exactly what I said (at least I think you did) and its still meritless. Yes, removing the outlier shifts the average upwards for the remaining sample! Congratulations on this stunning mathematical development, it's still completely irrelevant. I make a statement. I provide valid logical reasoning supporting my statement. You find no fault in my assumptions or reasoning, agree with my conclusion, but say "LULZ! None of that matters" without any rhyme or reason supporting your claims. Congratulations, you have passed trolling 101. Next time, try trolling 102- set up straw-man arguments which are laughably inane and see if you can get anyone to bite. Quote: Since your hypothesis, carried to an extreme, leads to the whole "Violent video games cause people to go shoot up schools" idea that I find to be laughable at best, here is an alternative hypothesis. I made a slight change. See if you can find it. Then think really, really hard, and see if you can see why it makes your entire argument completely and totally full of sh. Quote:** In the "average" person, indulging their sadistic, sociopathic, or psychotic tendencies through a game makes it less likely that they'll go off and go do something like that IRL; essentially, the game is a safety valve, allowing one to blow off stress/tension/anger/whatever in any way they see fit. Only in people who really do have a problem (and such people tend to be statistical outliers) is that safety valve insufficient...or alternatively, only such people would think to themselves, "I wonder what doing this IRL would feel like." You and I are arguing two different things. You're saying indulging one's impulses in games makes them less likely to indulge them in real life. I'm saying if they have demonstrated these impulses, in a game or not, they are more likely THAN AN AVERAGE PERSON to indulge them in real life. There is NOTHING that makes the two of those hypothesis mutually exclusive.
Dzil Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve OWN Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.09 05:25:00 - [307] Originally by: Berikath Originally by: corestwo I would argue, however, that allowing oneself to make that choice, to pursue an action that some (or many) would view as "immoral" in a game, does not mean you would make the same choice in a RL situation. And I would argue that if someone does not have any problem with scamming in theory, game or no, that the likelihood of them scamming in any situation where they thought they could get away with it would be SIGNIFICANTLY above average. Just because there isn't an absolute, direct 1-to-1 correlation between the two doesn't mean there isn't any correlation. I could see a nearly irrefutable argument that at least some increased risk is present, but I don't see any reason to conclude it's a significant increase. That's like saying there's a significant increase in the chances a shape is a square, if you've identified it's a rectangle. Retired from corp sales. Time to spend some of this on pretty explosions :)
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.09 08:07:00 - [308] Quote: That's like saying there's a significant increase in the chances a shape is a square, if you've identified it's a rectangle. Well, a connection exists though. If I can exclude it's a circle, ellipse or triangle etc. I am still in the terrain of infinite uncertainty but in a single infinite, not multiple infinites. Bleh this reminds me university math, Wenn diagrams and stuff . - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Dariah Stardweller Gallente Gung-Ho	Posted - 2010.09.09 15:36:00 - [309] Originally by: Bill Alt Originally by: Dariah Stardweller If this sort of stuff crosses the boundries for you you might wanna get a new hobby.... Ya think? Well that's a very inciteful comment into this complex and interesting topic, but I think I'll stay for now. Looks like both Eve and RL could use some more pathologically honest folks. Yes, I do think you should. In the end this is all part of the game, no rules were broken. If you really think this is some grey area between RL and fantasy you're not getting it. Stealing/scamming is no different than blowing someone's ship up. Ship=isk. There simply is no moral difference. Inappropriate signature removed. Zymurgist
Trebor Whettam	Posted - 2010.09.09 16:02:00 - [310] Originally by: Gabriel Virtus LOL! Bobby = trash. Investors = fools. I bought 10m in shares at the start of this IPO because I wanted a share in a scam, like a stated when the IPO was created. BB was full of it, everyone knew it, people spouted it throughout the entire IPO thread. The dude literally stated the ONLY reason he doesn't scam is because it is worth it not to - to the tune of a trillion isk. Yet another major failure on the part of the trustees and "trusted" MD community. It was a complete scam and at least one of them helped in the scam. The fact that three (right?) of the trustees can claim that they had nothing to do with the scam makes it so none of them will accept any blame. People honestly didn't wonder why he kept "expanding" the IPO. It was so incredibly obvious he was pumping it for everything it was worth. So... I told you so? -GV In my opinion the key to this scam was that in almost every way Bobby was NOT full of it. The Titan BPC market wasn't particularly lucrative, but Bobby ran the shop so smoothly and with such professionalism that people simply ignored that. He convinced everyone that the business was both stable and scalable not by trickery, but by running things as well as anyone could expect things to be ran.
Dzil Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve OWN Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.09 17:26:00 - [311] Originally by: Trebor Whettam Originally by: Gabriel Virtus LOL! Bobby = trash. Investors = fools. I bought 10m in shares at the start of this IPO because I wanted a share in a scam, like a stated when the IPO was created. BB was full of it, everyone knew it, people spouted it throughout the entire IPO thread. The dude literally stated the ONLY reason he doesn't scam is because it is worth it not to - to the tune of a trillion isk. Yet another major failure on the part of the trustees and "trusted" MD community. It was a complete scam and at least one of them helped in the scam. The fact that three (right?) of the trustees can claim that they had nothing to do with the scam makes it so none of them will accept any blame. People honestly didn't wonder why he kept "expanding" the IPO. It was so incredibly obvious he was pumping it for everything it was worth. So... I told you so? -GV In my opinion the key to this scam was that in almost every way Bobby was NOT full of it. The Titan BPC market wasn't particularly lucrative, but Bobby ran the shop so smoothly and with such professionalism that people simply ignored that. He convinced everyone that the business was both stable and scalable not by trickery, but by running things as well as anyone could expect things to be ran. Exactly. The most successful scams to date were the result not of pretending to run a business, but by actually running it and waiting for the ADHD MD guard to fall asleep. The fact is, while 2%/month isn't lucrative by MD standards, it's better than nothing if the isk is otherwise sitting in your wallet. 400 billion making 2%/month is creating 8 billion isk's worth of wealth every month. If you're confident in the security, then putting that isk to work making billions/month makes sense. Retired from corp sales. Time to spend some of this on pretty explosions :)
Berikath	Posted - 2010.09.09 18:42:00 - [312] Originally by: Dzil Originally by: Berikath Originally by: corestwo I would argue, however, that allowing oneself to make that choice, to pursue an action that some (or many) would view as "immoral" in a game, does not mean you would make the same choice in a RL situation. And I would argue that if someone does not have any problem with scamming in theory, game or no, that the likelihood of them scamming in any situation where they thought they could get away with it would be SIGNIFICANTLY above average. Just because there isn't an absolute, direct 1-to-1 correlation between the two doesn't mean there isn't any correlation. I could see a nearly irrefutable argument that at least some increased risk is present, but I don't see any reason to conclude it's a significant increase. That's like saying there's a significant increase in the chances a shape is a square, if you've identified it's a rectangle. I would certainly concede that your position is reasonable. I disagree with the estimation that the increase is negligible (if you are taking that position), but since it is a judgment call with no evidence that I am aware of backing up either side, we may just have to agree to disagree. The only reasoning I have to back up my position is that: 1. I am completely normal, most people are like me. 2. I would feel guilty designing and executing a scam like the one BB did. 3. I would not execute a scam like this because the guilt would bother me more than earning the ISK myself. ... for a conclusion of: 4. Most people would rather earn their ISK themselves than deal with the guilt from a scam. Yes, I know. Assumption #1 has a hole you could drive a bus through, but hey... I can't exactly survey everybody in the world to find out if I AM average.
Mme Pinkerton United Engineering Services	Posted - 2010.09.09 18:59:00 - [313] Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 09/09/2010 19:05:38 Originally by: Berikath 4. Most people would rather earn their ISK themselves than deal with the guilt from a scam. Most people don't try to launch offerings on MD either. edit: I think you don't want to make a statement about "average people" but about a specific population - the group of (potential) business managers on MD (upon reconsideration I might be wrong with this assumption). As this population is not chosen randomly but self-selects and one of the possible driving factors behind selection into that group is the intention to scam at some further point, statements about "most people" or "average persons" don't necessarily apply.
Bill Alt	Posted - 2010.09.09 23:21:00 - [314] Originally by: Dariah Stardweller Yes, I do think you should. In the end this is all part of the game, no rules were broken. If you really think this is some grey area between RL and fantasy you're not getting it. Stealing/scamming is no different than blowing someone's ship up. Ship=isk. There simply is no moral difference. It's funny that I keep hearing that, because I get it quite well. I simply disagree. As I already stated, my opinion is that the scale is relevant. Of course blowing up ships is what the game is about. We all know this. When you joyfully scam a lot of folks for what clearly has a huge equivalent monetary value, I call your personal ethics into question. If I gave a person my trust, in game or not, and he skated with the isk equivalent of $4000 that I could have used to buy PLEXs... And laughs about it... Well, not being a rich person, that means something to me. I do not buy that a person who does it has a sterling character simply because the medium he used to scam was a game. Because the scale matters. I didn't say game-scamming should be stopped. I didn't say it should be illegal. I said I believe it is probably a reflection of your real character. Dead horse beaten.
israus Minmatar Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.09.10 00:13:00 - [315] Originally by: Bill Alt It's funny that I keep hearing that, because I get it quite well. I simply disagree. As I already stated, my opinion is that the scale is relevant. Of course blowing up ships is what the game is about. We all know this. When you joyfully scam a lot of folks for what clearly has a huge equivalent monetary value, I call your personal ethics into question. If I gave a person my trust, in game or not, and he skated with the isk equivalent of $4000 that I could have used to buy PLEXs... And laughs about it... Well, not being a rich person, that means something to me. I do not buy that a person who does it has a sterling character simply because the medium he used to scam was a game. Because the scale matters. I didn't say game-scamming should be stopped. I didn't say it should be illegal. I said I believe it is probably a reflection of your real character. Dead horse beaten. but your an idiot and I can come on here and say so because in real life i'd be to polite to point that fact out. our actions in game or on forums have little or no reflection on who we are in real life. why do you think there was so much fuss about blizzard bring in there real ID system where everybody who posted on the forums posted under there real names. because in real life we have certain social boundies which we would not cross. but the net lets people act out what they'd like to say or do. the net lets us play out our fantasys lets us be the bank robber or the hero. games like eve just give people the freedom to act as they like. that does not translate into acting as we would in real life.
Cobalt Sixty Caldari The Price of Darkness	Posted - 2010.09.10 00:22:00 - [316] Originally by: Bill Alt Originally by: Dariah Stardweller Yes, I do think you should. In the end this is all part of the game, no rules were broken. If you really think this is some grey area between RL and fantasy you're not getting it. Stealing/scamming is no different than blowing someone's ship up. Ship=isk. There simply is no moral difference. It's funny that I keep hearing that, because I get it quite well. I simply disagree. As I already stated, my opinion is that the scale is relevant. Of course blowing up ships is what the game is about. We all know this. When you joyfully scam a lot of folks for what clearly has a huge equivalent monetary value, I call your personal ethics into question. If I gave a person my trust, in game or not, and he skated with the isk equivalent of $4000 that I could have used to buy PLEXs... And laughs about it... Well, not being a rich person, that means something to me. I do not buy that a person who does it has a sterling character simply because the medium he used to scam was a game. Because the scale matters. I didn't say game-scamming should be stopped. I didn't say it should be illegal. I said I believe it is probably a reflection of your real character. Dead horse beaten. You talk about actions in-game reflecting on the external character of the player. If you just sent someone "$4000" of ISK while aware you could very easily never see that ISK again, doesn't that just serve to reflect that you're as much of a sucker as you think the other party is a sinner?
Red Armageddon Caldari Mando'a Navy	Posted - 2010.09.10 00:32:00 - [317] Originally by: Proton Power Copy from AC post in T4U Thread *IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT* ALL TRADING OF T4U SHARES HAS BEEN SUSPENDED. DO NOT BUY/SELL ANY T4U SHARES. At 06:54 eve time on 2010.09.03, 5 votes were started to unlock the 5 titan bpo's in the "super secret corp". The director alts were kicked out the previous day supposedly to "keep any of you from grabbing the 600 votes that were created for the new directors". This is either a really mean test of the system or Bad Bobby has decided to cut and run. More info to come as it is available. Quoting for the sake of quoting. but mostly posting in an epic thread. Im impressed. nicely one. You submit complaints in handwritten triplicate with no less then 100 pages written with calligraphy pens and dot all the ôIös with hearts.
Bill Alt	Posted - 2010.09.10 01:13:00 - [318] Edited by: Bill Alt on 10/09/2010 01:16:05 Originally by: israus but your an idiot and I can come on here and say so because in real life i'd be to polite to point that fact out. our actions in game or on forums have little or no reflection on who we are in real life. I've been called that before, but I'm satisifed with being an honest one. Incidently, you're in denial. You post who you are.
Bill Alt	Posted - 2010.09.10 01:16:00 - [319] Originally by: Cobalt Sixty [You talk about actions in-game reflecting on the external character of the player. If you just sent someone "$4000" of ISK while aware you could very easily never see that ISK again, doesn't that just serve to reflect that you're as much of a sucker as you think the other party is a sinner? You are correct. Trust is bad.
Business Classy Business Class Investments	Posted - 2010.09.10 02:54:00 - [320] Originally by: corestwo Originally by: Berikath Your character may be a "mass murderer" in game, but the actual action you're doing isn't equivalent to murder. It is more equivalent to taking somebody's lunch money. On some level, you enjoy having power over other people and demonstrating that power by harming them a little bit. I would say that this makes you MORE likely to abuse whatever power you get than someone who finds the notion reprehensible. Since your hypothesis, carried to an extreme, leads to the whole "Violent video games cause people to go shoot up schools" idea that I find to be laughable at best, here is an alternative hypothesis. In the "average" person, indulging their sadistic, sociopathic, or psychotic tendencies through a game makes it less likely that they'll go off and go do something like that IRL; essentially, the game is a safety valve, allowing one to blow off stress/tension/anger/whatever in any way they see fit. Only in people who really do have a problem (and such people tend to be statistical outliers) is that safety valve insufficient...or alternatively, only such people would think to themselves, "I wonder what doing this IRL would feel like." Actually that brings up an interesting point I think: the desire to commit violent acts is primal, one of our 'base urges' as it were. People (espeically men) will feel the desire to destroy or hurt another person as some of their strongest emotions sometimes, after all it's biologically driven... but can you really say the same about being a confidence trickster? Acting out simulated violence in video games surely acts as a safety valve as you say, but I'm unconvinced that scamming (and other forms of cheating {I use the term loosely}) is something that people are innately drawn to. Rather, in eve people are encouraged to scam, and those of a particular mindset find it suits them to do so, just like it does the con artists of the real world. When it comes down to it, why is it ok to scam in eve? 1) It's encouraged? Ok, so that's motivation, doesn't say anything about it being right or wrong. 2) There's no rules against it? Legality =/= morality. 3) It's only fake money? This one is quite important to some, but I think overemphasized. While true, ISK still (obviously) has value, legal or not, a scammer is setting out to make personal gain by means of abusing people's trust. The gain they make isn't the issue, it's that it's wrong to abuse people's trust that matters. 4) There's no morality at play because this is just a game? Here I think we come to the actual matter... For myself I have never been able to 'roleplay' a separate paradigm of ethical behaviour into existance for my dealings in eve, and I am very curious how one goes about it if morality is so flexible that you can invent it on the spot.
Dariah Stardweller Gallente Gung-Ho	Posted - 2010.09.10 02:57:00 - [321] Originally by: Bill Alt It's funny that I keep hearing that, because I get it quite well. I simply disagree. As I already stated, my opinion is that the scale is relevant. Of course blowing up ships is what the game is about. We all know this. When you joyfully scam a lot of folks for what clearly has a huge equivalent monetary value, I call your personal ethics into question. Yet clearly you don't... Or maybe you think destroying one's cap fleet is immoral too? Since that's destruction of ISK on quite a large scale would you not say? Inappropriate signature removed. Zymurgist
Jypsie	Posted - 2010.09.10 04:14:00 - [322] Quote: For myself I have never been able to 'roleplay' a separate paradigm of ethical behaviour into existance for my dealings in eve, and I am very curious how one goes about it if morality is so flexible that you can invent it on the spot. Its called "acting." Anthony Hopkins isn't really a genius with a taste for human flesh.
Business Classy Business Class Investments	Posted - 2010.09.10 04:25:00 - [323] Edited by: Business Classy on 10/09/2010 04:28:46 Originally by: Jypsie Quote: For myself I have never been able to 'roleplay' a separate paradigm of ethical behaviour into existance for my dealings in eve, and I am very curious how one goes about it if morality is so flexible that you can invent it on the spot. Its called "acting." Anthony Hopkins isn't really a genius with a taste for human flesh. he also doesn't have to pay for the privilege of using his particular skills, but that's rather beside the point, though I must say a nice rebuttal. When you play a game you are technically 'acting' yes, but you're not really pretending in your head that the chess piece you're moving is actually a little Bishop with a very large mallet chipping away at that suspiciously small Tower. What i'm getting at is that if you're blowing up an enemies ship you're not taking joy in something you're thinking of as anything like actual murder, you know full well that if you blow up someone's ship you're setting them back maybe an hour or two of gametime, and 'killing' them is nothing more than a quick teleportation system. An eve scam on the other hand isn't nearly as different from a RL scam as an eve murder is from an RL murder. NOTE: to clarify my own possition, I'm glad there's scamming in eve, it's part of what makes the wild-west atmosphere of the game, and has attracted me and many others to the game to start with... But I maintain that the freedom to scam without consequences doesn't make the scam moraly neutral.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.10 07:44:00 - [324] Quote: the net lets us play out our fantasys lets us be the bank robber or the hero. games like eve just give people the freedom to act as they like. that does not translate into acting as we would in real life. TBH you are proving the other guy's point. Yours is a variation of the trite EvE motto: "I do this because I can". Basically if you in RL behave honest etc. because laws / social conventions force you to, you have no merit. If left completely free you'd switch to being what you like and you'd turn in RL into what you are in EvE. Quote: But I maintain that the freedom to scam without consequences doesn't make the scam moraly neutral. Complete freedom allows to show yourself for who you are. It's hypocrisy and self-lying to pretend it's pure "acting", look at the Roleplay forum and how the RP is usually blatantly obvious and looks constructed and artificial. On the other side, the best scams are something acted in a way that looks congenial to the perpetrators. The "acted" scams like the acted RP usually show as such and quickly, and are promptly catched by the MD regulars. Anyway, I am happy that EvE gives freedom to act in an honest or less honest way, but what I don't understand is how people can lie to themselves so hard, to be so much in denial vs their inner defects and flawed behaviors. Fear of discovering yourself? - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Aralyn Cormallen Wraith.Wing Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.09.10 09:01:00 - [325] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Anyway, I am happy that EvE gives freedom to act in an honest or less honest way, but what I don't understand is how people can lie to themselves so hard, to be so much in denial vs their inner defects and flawed behaviors. Just as I can't understand why people are so determined to prove how much better than everyone else they are. Personally, they are the people I would never trust, as i would know they are always looking down their noses at us 'mere mortals'. Do I have character flaws? Hell yes, and to be brutally honest, I don't believe anyone can say with a straight face that they don't. There is no such thing as an 'average' person, and depending on your own beliefs (flaws), you will find other peoples flaws more or less reprehensible.
israus Minmatar Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.09.10 09:18:00 - [326] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha TBH you are proving the other guy's point. Yours is a variation of the trite EvE motto: "I do this because I can". Basically if you in RL behave honest etc. because laws / social conventions force you to, you have no merit. If left completely free you'd switch to being what you like and you'd turn in RL into what you are in EvE. Quote: But I maintain that the freedom to scam without consequences doesn't make the scam moraly neutral. Complete freedom allows to show yourself for who you are. It's hypocrisy and self-lying to pretend it's pure "acting", look at the Roleplay forum and how the RP is usually blatantly obvious and looks constructed and artificial. On the other side, the best scams are something acted in a way that looks congenial to the perpetrators. The "acted" scams like the acted RP usually show as such and quickly, and are promptly catched by the MD regulars. Anyway, I am happy that EvE gives freedom to act in an honest or less honest way, but what I don't understand is how people can lie to themselves so hard, to be so much in denial vs their inner defects and flawed behaviors. Fear of discovering yourself? doesn't prove his point at all because if in the real world there where no laws and no repecutions for our actions then we'd all act differently. thats the whole point because mankinds morality isnt enough to keep use in line. but the fact is you still can't compare peoples actions in a game which has no impact on peoples real lives to how they'd act in the real world. the pirates on eve don't want to run off to the middle east to start high jacking ships. and the pvpers in eve don't want to start mobs to run round the streets bashig random peoples heads in. just because you get to act out your fantasys does not mean you'd turn into them.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.10 09:25:00 - [327] Quote: but the fact is you still can't compare peoples actions in a game which has no impact on peoples real lives to how they'd act in the real world. the pirates on eve don't want to run off to the middle east to start high jacking ships. and the pvpers in eve don't want to start mobs to run round the streets bashig random peoples heads in. just because you get to act out your fantasys does not mean you'd turn into them I like how when someone talks "scammer" people reply with "pirate". Pages ago I already drawn a line between pew pewing in a full PvP game vs conceiving intricate long term plans to screw up long term trusting friends. It's not the same thing, however you paint it. Finally, I dare say that eventually getting tens of thousands of dollars by RMTing stolen ISK HAS impact on people real lives. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Bill Alt	Posted - 2010.09.10 10:03:00 - [328] Originally by: Dariah Stardweller Yet clearly you don't... Or maybe you think destroying one's cap fleet is immoral too? Since that's destruction of ISK on quite a large scale would you not say? You clearly don't get the point. Trusting a lot of folks not to blow up your cap fleet? Bad call. Really.
israus Minmatar Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.09.10 10:23:00 - [329] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha I like how when someone talks "scammer" people reply with "pirate". Pages ago I already drawn a line between pew pewing in a full PvP game vs conceiving intricate long term plans to screw up long term trusting friends. It's not the same thing, however you paint it. Finally, I dare say that eventually getting tens of thousands of dollars by RMTing stolen ISK HAS impact on people real lives. please tell me where I said anything about pirates and scammers I was talking pirate in game to pirates in real life. as for the real money trading I dare say CCP will be keeping and eagel eye on bobbys accounts and where the money goes from this so selling it to rmt venders probably wouldn't be the smartest thing to do. and saying that the stolen money being sold to rmt has impact on anybody but the person selling its life is crap. the only impact losing tens of billions of in game cash could possable having in real life is if that person was planning on selling it themselves and I assume your not supporting such a move.
Hel O'Ween Men On A Mission	Posted - 2010.09.10 11:27:00 - [330] Originally by: SencneS The whole morals in games equals morals in real life is stupidity personified... People that play EVE as a Pirate, do not go out in real life and attack and kill people willy nilly.. They don't stand in dark allies with weapons and hold people ransom, and then kill them if they do or don't get their demands. It's morally wrong to kill someone in real life, yet billions of online avatars die every single day at the hands of people who have never committed a felony in any sovereign state anywhere in the world. To say if someone steals something in a game, they are more apt to perform the same actions in real life is probably a sad sign of lack of intelligence or more the point lack of logical reasoning then anything else. You seem to be missing the fact that since the invention of PLEX, you are stealing real life money from real life people. -- EVEWalletAware - an offline wallet manager
Dtail	Posted - 2010.09.10 11:42:00 - [331] Originally by: Hel O'Ween You seem to be missing the fact that since the invention of PLEX, you are stealing real life money from real life people. You seem to be missing the fact that every dollar what you use doesn't have same value after using it.
Cobalt Sixty Caldari The Price of Darkness	Posted - 2010.09.10 11:51:00 - [332] Originally by: Bill Alt Originally by: Cobalt Sixty You talk about actions in-game reflecting on the external character of the player. If you just sent someone "$4000" of ISK while aware you could very easily never see that ISK again, doesn't that just serve to reflect that you're as much of a sucker as you think the other party is a sinner? You are correct. Trust is bad. Not at all what I said, but nevermind
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.10 11:52:00 - [333] Quote: as for the real money trading I dare say CCP will be keeping and eagel eye on bobbys accounts After the stunt he pulled, do you believe Bad Bobby is such an idiot? Any scammer worth his salt announces the BANG after the RMT has been concluded already. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Dariah Stardweller Gallente Gung-Ho	Posted - 2010.09.10 12:12:00 - [334] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: as for the real money trading I dare say CCP will be keeping and eagel eye on bobbys accounts After the stunt he pulled, do you believe Bad Bobby is such an idiot? Any scammer worth his salt announces the BANG after the RMT has been concluded already. Indeed. I must say I'd be mighty tempted btw if I could get several tens of thousands of $$$$ for the isk to breach the EULA. Inappropriate signature removed. Zymurgist
Drexciyian The Water Margin Tech	Posted - 2010.09.10 12:27:00 - [335] So who was the biggest loser in this?
Dariah Stardweller Gallente Gung-Ho	Posted - 2010.09.10 12:48:00 - [336] Originally by: Bill Alt Originally by: Dariah Stardweller Yet clearly you don't... Or maybe you think destroying one's cap fleet is immoral too? Since that's destruction of ISK on quite a large scale would you not say? You clearly don't get the point. Trusting a lot of folks not to blow up your cap fleet? Bad call. Really. I would trust the ppl I manage the fleet with, not 100% trust of course, as we all know backstabbing is part of THE GAME. Much like the investors trusted BB and his henchmen. Once again you fail to see how similar it all is... But is that what this is all about? It's immoral to betray someone's trust in a game that is known for it's backstabbing and betrayal? Someone mentioned the board game "RISK" earlier, where you often form alliances with ppl to reach common goals. At some point though these goals might not be so common anymore and the backstabbing begins. Is that immoral too? I never experienced it that way myself and don't know anyone who does tbh. Why? Cause it's part of the game! Note: none of the ppl I've played the game with have turned out to be backstabbers, murderers or world conquerors or what not so far... Inappropriate signature removed. Zymurgist
zooming	Posted - 2010.09.10 12:51:00 - [337] OK, so I lost about 3 Bil to this BB scam, and what angers me most (apart from my own stupidity for not selling up) is all the idiots who post on here saying "I knew it" or "It's obvious". I mean, I had a gut feeling it was a terrible investment but I was lazy and kept the shares, and I got punished for that, no problem, I'll take it. But really if anyone thought it was a scam why didn't any of you ever start a thread before this and say what you thought?? In Bb's own words.... "Going from running a 9b isk bond directly into running a 200b+ IPO using a character that is a known pirate, with known scammer sympathies, who has never been audited, who to that point had never returned any invested isk, who has the name "Bad Bobby", who belongs to a corp called "The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels"..." So no one was willing to post this info on the MD forum! Or none of you were smart enough to see it, or you were too scared. Shame on all of you, a massive failure by Md. To the established elite, for all your posturing and elitism, and scorn you pour on people asking questions, ask yourselves what have you achieved by enabling this to happen? - it's YOUR collective fault more than anyone else that things like this happen on eve. To the moral brigade, Bb's scam is fine, no karma issue IF all the ISK stays in Eve as he has already stated it will. Would he really come back and answer questions if he was going to try and ebay sell it?!!! Finally, alphabetical list of people to trust ISK with on this forum, who have sense, can make a return on your investment, and who I hope would not turn to scamming. Cista2 Raw23
Krathos Morpheus Legion Infernal	Posted - 2010.09.10 13:22:00 - [338] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Complete freedom allows to show yourself for who you are. Fear of discovering yourself? I disagree and agree at the same time. I do think that a lot of people are conditioned to do what they do in their real lives by social environments and enforcement laws, rewards or punishments, that same people may behave otherwise if their environment were different, showing their "true face", so to speak. There you are right, but only sometimes. There are also people who behave very differently in different social groups (people they know, people they don't know, people they love, etc), you have said or implied previously that people can only be bad or good, truth is that people are complex. There are people that are free to chose who they want to be (more or less, let's just say that they are at least conscious and don't follow a reward/punishment system (or at least not without knowing)). This people may choose to change what they do based on the moment, like choosing to do things in a game differently because it is a game and decide that it is alright to play it differently. Lastly there is this acting thing that you seem to be so confused about. When you act you do different things that you'd do yourself, and how can you do it? Because you are not being yourself. The best acting (from my personal experience) comes when you become the character, like if it were a suit you put on. This has a few dangers as you can see in some actors and actresses being broken after a very intense act (every actor should really put a few failsafes there). If you don't do it that way you are just faking it, is not real. So acting has nothing to do with who you are in real life, although I concede that some people may use this as an excuse to unleash who they really would be if given the chance, I think you can differentiate those by their behavior after the scam most of the time. Are you religious or have been indoctrinated in some form of thought? I ask because those are the ones that tend to simplify the world to such degree so it can be classified and explained in simple terms for the people to do what they want them to do. In resume: world and people are complex, you can not dogmatize judgement on people, you can judge the actions, but you must be the actual person to have the lightest insight on what's going on inside, and even then you may not understand yourself sometimes. Just to clarify my position, I'll say that I'm free or under the illusion of being so, I'm mostly aware of the doctrines that were inculcated in me when child, I'm capable of the best and worst, free from dogmas. I chose to do what you would label as good most of the time, I like being nice to others although sometimes rough with my words when I think something is not right. I'm also an actor sometimes, although I chose not to act when not on an scenery or under the camera. That said, I chose not to act on this character (or any in the account, the only one I have) since this is being mostly me in the game. I do believe too that scamming is very different than any other mechanic (except maybe thieving) in the game since here you take a compromise yourself to do something knowing that you wont. I would have to change radically my current being in order to scam since being honest is very important to me, I would need a very strong reason to do it, a reason that I believe is impossible to find in a game.
israus Minmatar Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.09.10 13:59:00 - [339] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha After the stunt he pulled, do you believe Bad Bobby is such an idiot? Any scammer worth his salt announces the BANG after the RMT has been concluded already. stop being an idiot there is no way he could sell that money easyly to rmt's either before it was announced or any time in the near future ccp will have checked and be checking on his account to monitor where the money goes.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.10 14:01:00 - [340] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 10/09/2010 14:03:49 Quote: So no one was willing to post this info on the MD forum! Or none of you were smart enough to see it, or you were too scared. Shame on all of you, a massive failure by Md. I may try reply this, even if I am not "established elite" (I just post a lot). BB played very well his cards. Unlike others he did not act all high and elite, he did not create bonds typed in 2 minutes like "If ur frends giev me 10B nao kthxbye". I did not trust him to be beyond doubt because his systematic refusal of any accounting, ridicolously low interests % and the continuous re-financing of debt. Still when I wanted to use his rates BPO purchase service he was quite professional and correct. This is one of the reasons why I am so annoyed at him, because he WAS good, he HAD huge potential, he was not just faking it. I sincerely hoped he was one of those few persons worth dealing with, not just another in the huge ocean of human manure. I know of an investor who felt even worse than me at this, he adopted BB as a model to follow, he copied him, he really had BB on a pedestal. He feels terribly now - the financial loss does not even dent his wallet but the psychological hit was tremendous, he even changed his approach towards RL people due to this and now he's permanently suspicious and cynical. So RL harm HAS been made, at least in one case. Quote: Finally, alphabetical list of people to trust ISK with on this forum, who have sense, can make a return on your investment, and who I hope would not turn to scamming. Cista2 Raw23 Your list could be too long. Quote: The best acting (from my personal experience) comes when you become the character, like if it were a suit you put on This whole chunk of statements ends up being too subjective to decide if someone is right or wrong. In my experience, though, characters have their traits like a suit and the actor "wears them" like gloves. When the two match, you get the perfect acting, the actor did put his true self into it, it just happens to mesh perfectly with the canvas. Quote: Are you religious or have been indoctrinated in some form of thought? In theory, maybe. I wish I was. Life would be easier. I try simplifying things because a life of shades affects my perennial search for a sense in life, admitting there's one. Quote: Just to clarify my position, I'll say that I'm free or under the illusion of being I believe the latter. Who is really free? There have to be boundaries (the famous "your freedom ends where mine begins") but boundaries mean no complete freedom exists. Quote: I would have to change radically my current being in order to scam since being honest is very important to me, I would need a very strong reason to do it, a reason that I believe is impossible to find in a game. In BB case it's even worse than that. It's easy to be evil when it's cheap or you are worthless, but BB renounced to ... everything (but money) and was not worthless. This makes for something I fail to understand. I could wash my butt with 850B that costed me my face. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.10 14:22:00 - [341] Edited by: Jion Tichy on 10/09/2010 14:23:00 I would just like to point out that many people here, in MD in general and certainly posting in this thread, are Bad Bobby alts. These are people you talk to every day, who have used their positions and familiarity in order to become immune to criticism. Ever thought about who that might be? My guess is that you haven't heard the last of Bad Bobby. BTW, I have a very good guess as to who Bad Bobby's "main" is, to whatever degree such a person can be said to have a main.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.10 14:37:00 - [342] Originally by: Jion Tichy Edited by: Jion Tichy on 10/09/2010 14:23:00 I would just like to point out that many people here, in MD in general and certainly posting in this thread, are Bad Bobby alts. These are people you talk to every day, who have used their positions and familiarity in order to become immune to criticism. Ever thought about who that might be? My guess is that you haven't heard the last of Bad Bobby. BTW, I have a very good guess as to who Bad Bobby's "main" is, to whatever degree such a person can be said to have a main. His "main" killed one of my ships in 0.0 CVA space iirc. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Mme Pinkerton United Engineering Services	Posted - 2010.09.10 15:16:00 - [343] Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 10/09/2010 15:19:15 Originally by: Jion Tichy I would just like to point out that many people here, in MD in general and certainly posting in this thread, are Bad Bobby alts. lol, have you ever heard of some guy named Riethe? edit: does anybody know a good theologian? we need some creative way to resolve the "all of MD are Riethe alts", "all of SCC are Ji Sama alts" and "all of MD are Bad Bobby" paradoxon without coming to the conclusion that Bad Bobby = Riethe.
Berikath	Posted - 2010.09.10 15:53:00 - [344] Originally by: Hel O'Ween You seem to be missing the fact that since the invention of PLEX, you are stealing real life money from real life people. You seem to be missing the facts that 1. You can only convert dollars to ISK; you can't convert it back. 2. You never have to spend RL money to make billions of ISK (barring a $5 activation for an account). Your argument has about the same validity as saying visitors to your house steal oxygen from you because you can go and buy it in an oxygen bar.
Ray McCormack Nordar Innovations.	Posted - 2010.09.10 16:06:00 - [345] Originally by: Berikath 1. You can only convert dollars to ISK; you can't convert it back. Tell that to ricdic and his mortgage. Follow My EBANK Chatter
Dariah Stardweller Gallente Gung-Ho	Posted - 2010.09.10 16:59:00 - [346] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha I know of an investor who felt even worse than me at this, he adopted BB as a model to follow, he copied him, he really had BB on a pedestal. He feels terribly now - the financial loss does not even dent his wallet but the psychological hit was tremendous, he even changed his approach towards RL people due to this and now he's permanently suspicious and cynical. So RL harm HAS been made, at least in one case. You call it harm, I say he learned an important lesson. An important step towards maturing even Inappropriate signature removed. Zymurgist
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.10 17:06:00 - [347] Originally by: Dariah Stardweller You call it harm, I say he learned an important lesson. An important step towards maturing even With this system, I don't really want to be there, when someone will have to mature and learn about how bad is being gunshot in face. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Dariah Stardweller Gallente Gung-Ho	Posted - 2010.09.10 17:16:00 - [348] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Originally by: Dariah Stardweller You call it harm, I say he learned an important lesson. An important step towards maturing even With this system, I don't really want to be there, when someone will have to mature and learn about how bad is being gunshot in face. Dude, seriously, stop the dramatizing... If things like this crack his fragile little psyche, I fear he will soon find there are worse things in life than losing a game... Inappropriate signature removed. Zymurgist
Berikath	Posted - 2010.09.10 17:22:00 - [349] Edited by: Berikath on 10/09/2010 17:25:51 Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Berikath 1. You can only convert dollars to ISK; you can't convert it back. Tell that to ricdic and his mortgage. Fine, be that way. Edited it: Originally by: Berikath 1. You can only (LEGALLY) convert dollars to ISK; you can't convert it back. I was assuming people were following the rules. If they're complaining that "I lost money to a scam because I could break the rules and convert it to cash!"... in an argument about the ethics of scamming... again, ETHICS of scamming... then their point is pretty laughable IMHO. Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha With this system, I don't really want to be there, when someone will have to mature and learn about how bad is being gunshot in face. That is taking it a bit far. You could realistically say that at some point in their lives everyone will have someone try to take advantage of them; learning to be cautious by losing pixels instead of REAL money could be considered a blessing; pixels are a luxury so losing them won't cause serious harm, but real money is required for things like food and shelter (which are kind of necessary).
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.10 17:27:00 - [350] Quote: If things like this crack his fragile little psyche, I fear he will soon find there are worse things in life than losing a game... How do you arrogate to judge the feelings of someone else? You know nothing of that person. I am actually glad that the world is not purely made of (internet) though guys. Quote: I was assuming people were following the rules. Why would a scammer follow the rules? Do you really believe that someone who could not resist the lust of some virtual money and (by his words) "cashed in" will resist the chance to make sensible real money out of it? - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.10 17:32:00 - [351] Quote: How do you arrogate to judge the feelings of someone else? You know nothing of that person. I am actually glad that the world is not purely made of (internet) though guys. I think a lot of people are indeed severely injured by events that occur in the game. You make friends in the game and when they stab you in the back it hurts. In this sense it teaches many lessons about the real world. For better or for worse. I can easily imagine some unstable person shooting himself over events in the game, the way that people shoot themselves over poker. The stakes here are real and they can represent hundreds or tens of thousands of hours of effort.
Dariah Stardweller Gallente Gung-Ho	Posted - 2010.09.10 17:37:00 - [352] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: If things like this crack his fragile little psyche, I fear he will soon find there are worse things in life than losing a game... How do you arrogate to judge the feelings of someone else? You know nothing of that person. Au contraire, you just told me (and the whole world) a lot about this person. He built up a mental fantasy image of his hero, and then his hero turned out to be a bad guy and that nearly shattered his psyche. That sounds like a very young and nanve person, most of us lose that kind of innocence in their teens, some later (I was a late bloomer myself) and tbh I think it's a lesson everybody should learn and learn it in time, saves you a hard lesson later on. I would like to close with a statement my father taught me (and his father taught him): "Son, don't trust anyone, but always be thrustworthy.". I've always found it a good philosophy, though I fear the more paranoid types might overdo it a bit with the 'not trusting anyone'-part Inappropriate signature removed. Zymurgist
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.10 18:33:00 - [353] Not trusting others in the absence of any sort of security is a very effective strategy for limiting risk. Those who do otherwise do so at their peril, both here and in the real world. In Eve, "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" holds true and following the axiom would have saved numerous people a great deal of heartache here and in the past. Am I correct in thinking that 100% of large investments in Eve have turned out to be fraudulent?
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.09.10 18:53:00 - [354] Edited by: Breaker77 on 10/09/2010 18:55:29 Originally by: Jion Tichy Am I correct in thinking that 100% of large investments in Eve have turned out to be fraudulent? That shows your auditing skills are not up to anything near what they can be. BMBE, Grendell, Cosmoray, and Tournsoul all have had or still have multi billion ISK offerings, most of which are over 100 billion. Atima and Akita T have had offerings in the 40-60 billion range that ended successfully. In fact the only really large offerings that have had issues are banks, and anything Bobby had going. edit: Well I'm sure there are some other large offerings but that was before I was active in MD. Newbold, Riethe, Xabier??
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.10 18:58:00 - [355] By "large investments" I'm referring to ones that are really big-- in the general scheme of things even 100B isn't that much compared to this most recent one and several previously, especially when adjusted for the greater amount of ISK available now. To put my question in another way, what is the largest investment so far in the game that ended up not being fraudulent?
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.09.10 19:05:00 - [356] Closed offerings would probably be Grendells Line of Credit he just ended. Open offers, probably BMBE with a NAV of around 186 billion Seriously, it's not hard to do the research. You better learn now as your will be using EVE Search and manually digging through forums for while doing audits. Even google is your friend.
Jin Natha	Posted - 2010.09.10 19:11:00 - [357] Originally by: Jion Tichy Am I correct in thinking that 100% of large investments in Eve have turned out to be fraudulent? ISS may have crumbled somewhat under the weight of Eve politics, but it closed down in an orderly fashion and shares in the outpost holding corps could be exchanged for shares in ISSO (which I think were subsequently bought back). I may have missed something, but AFAIK it was no scam.
Berikath	Posted - 2010.09.10 19:56:00 - [358] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Why would a scammer follow the rules? Do you really believe that someone who could not resist the lust of some virtual money and (by his words) "cashed in" will resist the chance to make sensible real money out of it? I don't. I never said or implied I did. I expect that someone who views scamming as morally wrong and is complaining about ISK lost to a scammer would be following the rules (in which case, they wouldn't reasonably be able to view ISK as transferable to legal currency).
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.10 20:10:00 - [359] Originally by: Breaker77 Edited by: Breaker77 on 10/09/2010 18:55:29 Originally by: Jion Tichy Am I correct in thinking that 100% of large investments in Eve have turned out to be fraudulent? That shows your auditing skills are not up to anything near what they can be. BMBE, Grendell, Cosmoray, and Tournsoul all have had or still have multi billion ISK offerings, most of which are over 100 billion. Atima and Akita T have had offerings in the 40-60 billion range that ended successfully. In fact the only really large offerings that have had issues are banks, and anything Bobby had going. edit: Well I'm sure there are some other large offerings but that was before I was active in MD. Newbold, Riethe, Xabier?? I think we can add LoW and subsequently Varo Jan 3 digits billions IPO which is still running. We had LYII that was not that small and finished well enough, we also had that Goon CAIDS that was not minimal. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.09.10 20:18:00 - [360] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha I think we can add LoW and subsequently Varo Jan 3 digits billions IPO which is still running. We had LYII that was not that small and finished well enough, we also had that Goon CAIDS that was not minimal. I realized most of those after I had posted, but I didn't do too bad for spending about 15 seconds to pull names off the top of my head
Berikath	Posted - 2010.09.10 21:06:00 - [361] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha I think we can add LoW and subsequently Varo Jan 3 digits billions IPO which is still running. We had LYII that was not that small and finished well enough, we also had that Goon CAIDS that was not minimal. Problem is, "So, we paid our dividend again.... for the 20th month in a row" falls off the page immediately (if it even gets posted). "Bond has run it's course, everyone is now paid off" gets... maybe a couple people who go 'woot, thanks, got my money' then it falls off the page. "Lulz! U guiz got skammed, I gots me some cash!" hangs around for 2 months. Even if there are more legit offerings than scams, people are going to see the scams far more, so they'll think of them more.
Grozen Caldari Titan Core	Posted - 2010.09.10 21:47:00 - [362] The whole fact that someone doesn't want audit was very fishy to me from the start.Anyone that has something to hide would always avoid audit and even then the risk is very high. knowledge is power
Cobalt Sixty Caldari The Price of Darkness	Posted - 2010.09.11 06:49:00 - [363] Originally by: zooming But really if anyone thought it was a scam why didn't any of you ever start a thread before this and say what you thought?? ... Originally by: zooming I mean, I had a gut feeling it was a terrible investment but I was lazy and kept the shares, and I got punished for that, no problem, I'll take it. Despite what you say, you don't appear to be taking it very well. I suggest you re-address your expectations of others here and be prepared to hold your own hand in the future. It should be painfully clear to you now that you're the only person responsible for yourself. P.S. lol @ you.
zooming	Posted - 2010.09.11 09:42:00 - [364] Cobalt, I really struggle to see the point of your reply. Playing eve in itself teaches you to hold your own hand and it constantly reinforces you're the only person responsible for yourself.
Nyphur Pillowsoft Total Comfort	Posted - 2010.09.11 10:22:00 - [365] Originally by: Breaker77 Originally by: Jion Tichy Am I correct in thinking that 100% of large investments in Eve have turned out to be fraudulent? BMBE, Grendell, Cosmoray, and Tournsoul all have had or still have multi billion ISK offerings, most of which are over 100 billion. Atima and Akita T have had offerings in the 40-60 billion range that ended successfully. edit: Well I'm sure there are some other large offerings but that was before I was active in MD. Newbold, Riethe, Xabier?? Aww man, people don't even remember me . PIF and PSRS ran for a total of 60b, paid a whole bunch of 5% and 10% dividends and eventually liquidated and paid back to investors. Someone said this earlier and they're absolutely right. Fame fades very quickly in EVE. A few years ago, everyone knew me and I'd get random people I didn't know saying hello in practically every system when I flew through empire. Nowadays, even bigshots like the CSM members didn't know about anything I'd done apart from my work at Massively. It's a different game today, that's for sure. EVE-Tanking.com - Helping you keep your hull in-tact.
flakeys DRAMA Inc Forbidden Domain	Posted - 2010.09.11 10:29:00 - [366] Edited by: flakeys on 11/09/2010 10:30:38 Don't forget Varo jan with one stop on that list of good returned loans. Funny people keep remembering people like general newbold , yih and others while they only had a VERRY small amount of isk they ran away with and yet a lot allready forgot curzon dax.
Dariah Stardweller Gallente Gung-Ho	Posted - 2010.09.11 12:14:00 - [367] Originally by: Grozen The whole fact that someone doesn't want audit was very fishy to me from the start.Anyone that has something to hide would always avoid audit and even then the risk is very high. That basicly spells: "Hi, Ima scam ur arse!" Inappropriate signature removed. Zymurgist
Yendor Widdershins Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2010.09.11 12:36:00 - [368] Originally by: zooming But really if anyone thought it was a scam why didn't any of you ever start a thread before this and say what you thought?? A lot of times, people aren't sure. They can only say that they see particular danger signs, and they personally will not invest. And there were a few people who did that in the T4U thread. Also, a lot of it is natural hind-sight. I think I mentioned that the only reason I wasn't a victim is that I was "lucky" enough to always have more urgent needs for me free ISK -- but that doesn't prevent me from retroactively seeing the danger signs. Originally by: zooming "Going from running a 9b isk bond directly into running a 200b+ IPO using a character that is a known pirate, with known scammer sympathies, who has never been audited, who to that point had never returned any invested isk, who has the name "Bad Bobby", who belongs to a corp called "The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels"..." So no one was willing to post this info on the MD forum! Or none of you were smart enough to see it, or you were too scared. Shame on all of you, a massive failure by Md. Are you seriously suggesting that the MD posters should have made a post saying "Oh my gosh, this fund is run by someone named Bad Bobby!!!!!!!"? The reason why Bad Bobby is gloating is because almost everything in that paragraph was explicitly mentioned in his fist fundraising post in T4U. It was not secret information that a few people knew about and chose to keep secret; it is information explicitly listed / linked to by Bad Bobby himself. The one exception is "with known scammer sympathies." I remember reading the relevant comments, but I can't find the thread now. It was the kind of thing that did cause some concern but on the other hand regular dividend payments lulled everyone into trusting him, and besides "The trustees can block him if he does decide to scam". Quote: To the established elite, for all your posturing and elitism, and scorn you pour on people asking questions, ask yourselves what have you achieved by enabling this to happen? - it's YOUR collective fault more than anyone else that things like this happen on eve. Nonsense. There were some questions asked of Bad Bobby. -- see for example -- There were people who publicly proclaimed that they were not going to invest for various risk-related reasons. Do they have an obligation to continually bump the thread with "He might be a scammer!" without any new evidence? Blame Bad Bobby. Blame the trustees. Blame the investors. Blame yourself. But blaming the people who posted once "I don't think it's worth the risk" is ridiculous.
Phoebe Halliwel	Posted - 2010.09.11 13:37:00 - [369] Originally by: Yendor Widdershins The one exception is "with known scammer sympathies." I remember reading the relevant comments, but I can't find the thread now. It was the kind of thing that did cause some concern but on the other hand regular dividend payments lulled everyone into trusting him, and besides "The trustees can block him if he does decide to scam". Linky Actually the bulk of the discussion that led upto that took place on a different forum related to the audit fund.
Cobalt Sixty Caldari The Price of Darkness	Posted - 2010.09.11 14:30:00 - [370] Originally by: zooming Cobalt, I really struggle to see the point of your reply. Playing eve in itself teaches you to hold your own hand and it constantly reinforces you're the only person responsible for yourself. You spent a significant amount of your post blaming everyone else for not doing your own work for you. That was my observation. My point was ... nevermind, I doubt an explanation would help you.
F90OEX F9X WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.09.11 17:48:00 - [371] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Breaker77 Originally by: Jion Tichy Am I correct in thinking that 100% of large investments in Eve have turned out to be fraudulent? BMBE, Grendell, Cosmoray, and Tournsoul all have had or still have multi billion ISK offerings, most of which are over 100 billion. Atima and Akita T have had offerings in the 40-60 billion range that ended successfully. edit: Well I'm sure there are some other large offerings but that was before I was active in MD. Newbold, Riethe, Xabier?? Aww man, people don't even remember me . PIF and PSRS ran for a total of 60b, paid a whole bunch of 5% and 10% dividends and eventually liquidated and paid back to investors. Someone said this earlier and they're absolutely right. Fame fades very quickly in EVE. A few years ago, everyone knew me and I'd get random people I didn't know saying hello in practically every system when I flew through empire. Nowadays, even bigshots like the CSM members didn't know about anything I'd done apart from my work at Massively. It's a different game today, that's for sure. Indeed..... But as you know there are lots of really good honest peeps and stay out of the lime light and run 50bil-500bil+ investments that have started and finished without any kind of problem and you will never hear anything on the market forum about them ( which I support). But I remember you
zooming	Posted - 2010.09.12 11:00:00 - [372] Well some great comments there! It's like youÆre saying I should blame myself for an individual who took my ISK, and blame myself for the group that enabled it. Look, I don't even care, as far as I'm concerned all investments here are written off as soon as you hand the ISK over, what you get back is a bonus. My original post and anger was directed at those who kept posting saying "I knew this was bad", it's all calmed down now and we've actually seen some constructive posting come out of this as a result.
Jan VanRijkdom	Posted - 2010.09.13 13:58:00 - [373] Oh darn, I was scammed for 55m.... Good job BB, you bastard....lol
Lillith Starfire	Posted - 2010.09.13 15:23:00 - [374] Originally by: zooming Look, I don't even care, as far as I'm concerned all investments here are written off as soon as you hand the ISK over, what you get back is a bonus. Since this thread has been bumped back up again I'd just like to say as a relative outsider with no vested interests it is rather telling that almost all the responses are just so timid and almost uncaring. Sure some tried to analyze it but the 99% of posts show such a timid response I wonder if anyone even really cares. It's like so called MD Elites just bend right over and inviting to be screwed over. But if they get something back well that's just extra ISK to add to the stack. A case of more money than sense perhaps? Success breeding complacency? Arrogance/lazy. Well whatever it is, I think the obvious lack of any real spirited kind of reaction shows something in itself. I do believe the next few scams are alredy well underway and that reminds me, I'll bring my alt called DoubleYourISKForGreatCarbonBPCO lol
Claire Voyant	Posted - 2010.09.13 15:29:00 - [375] Experienced players know not to let their tears flow on the forums. That doesn't mean the tears don't flow though.
Lillith Starfire	Posted - 2010.09.13 15:51:00 - [376] Edited by: Lillith Starfire on 13/09/2010 15:55:54 Originally by: Claire Voyant Experienced players know not to let their tears flow on the forums. That doesn't mean the tears don't flow though. Very good point. Now to see when history repeats itself. I have suspicions about one or two on here so it will be interesting to observe what happens!
zooming	Posted - 2010.09.13 15:59:00 - [377] Lillith, I initially responded with rage, but you must understand that from an investors point of view there is no control, the ISK is gone!! I can't stay angry forever!
Cooke Dashavatara Clownz'R'Us	Posted - 2010.09.15 16:18:00 - [378] At least for me, when I rightclick it says "give mony to..." not "lend money to" or "invest money with". Just saying.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.15 16:53:00 - [379] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 15/09/2010 16:53:16 Quote: It's like so called MD Elites just bend right over and inviting to be screwed over. But if they get something back well that's just extra ISK to add to the stack. Proper pilots consider their ship lost the second they undock, and rejoyce if they come back home in one piece. They fly what they can afford to lose. Proper investors consider their investment lost the second they give the money away, and rejoyce if it comes back in one piece. They invest what they can afford to lose. No need to rage when you accepted the possible outcome beforehand. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
daddys helper	Posted - 2010.09.15 17:36:00 - [380] just be glad you aint the guy who went all in on the last auction or are you?
Zooming	Posted - 2010.09.15 18:25:00 - [381] Outcome was accepted, initial rage was directed to other posters. What was not expected was BB to get away clean with everything!!! It was supposed to be secured. I would have thought at least something would be left, or BB himself would have some conscience, he could have left like 1 BPO or something so the corp could try and recover. The greed is shocking.
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.09.15 19:05:00 - [382] Edited by: Jovialmadness on 15/09/2010 19:08:28 Originally by: Zooming Outcome was accepted, initial rage was directed to other posters. What was not expected was BB to get away clean with everything!!! It was supposed to be secured. I would have thought at least something would be left, or BB himself would have some conscience, he could have left like 1 BPO or something so the corp could try and recover. The greed is shocking. Anybody who tells you different is a lying ass dog. Anybody who lost isk in any venture, whether the anger is expressed outwardly or not, is ****ed about it. The diference is the trolls and rubber-neckers are waiting for all the investors to rage so all the popcorn they are eating digests easier. So....most will not rage on the forums and will, "lol ya got me" or "nice pull dude!! How much you get!?" so that the issue will resolve and they can get on with their gaming lives. As far as BB giving any isk back. Im sure he has given some to his buds. He is going to need alot though. If he ever used a VOIP(and i know he did in hus alliance) and is well known on it(with that character uh yea), he has burned his use of it for anyting legit. His character is useless so he has to get a new one and since i know who his main is that character is burned too. Getting back to this channel. The guys here enjoy doing this so much ive finally come to terms that investing will never go away. Even the rediculous investing that screams scam. Too many of the fellars in this channel are sadists and masochists.
Yendor Widdershins Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2010.09.15 20:40:00 - [383] Originally by: Jovialmadness His character is useless so he has to get a new one and since i know who his main is that character is burned too. Care to enlighten us? Quote: Getting back to this channel. The guys here enjoy doing this so much ive finally come to terms that investing will never go away. I'll share my opinion. First, Eve is open-ended enough that it is one of small handful of games that can support an actual in-game business. So naturally people want to experiment and try their hand at it in the way that people try manufacturing, missioning, piracy, even scamming. Second, there is the daunting question: Given an environment in which scamming is possible, profitable, and subtly encouraged, is it even possible to have a genuinely successful business? Can it be secured and if so how? Can anything resembling trust be established in such an environment? Many people are fascinated by such questions, at least until they become jaded enough to conclude the answer is "no." So the cycle restarts.
Doctor Mabuse	Posted - 2010.09.15 20:49:00 - [384] Edited by: Doctor Mabuse on 15/09/2010 20:50:37 Originally by: Jovialmadness He is going to need alot though. If he ever used a VOIP(and i know he did in hus alliance) and is well known on it(with that character uh yea), he has burned his use of it for anyting legit. His character is useless so he has to get a new one and since i know who his main is that character is burned too. In what way is he burned? With 850 million in the bank I don't think he's too bothered about trying to scam anyone any time soon, or do you mean people will be actively trying to take revenge in game? I have a feeling his corp will love that... ------------------------------------ Who's trip-trapping on my bridge?
Roger Kiyosaki Native Freshfood	Posted - 2010.09.16 09:06:00 - [385] Originally by: Doctor Mabuse With 850 million in the bank I don't think he's too bothered about trying to scam anyone any time soon I wouldn't be too sure of that. If he's really roleplaying scammers, as he claims (and I have no clues to not believe him in that regard), then it won't take too long for him to be back in disguise. He probably already is. I got burned myself on T4U. I haven't bothered to check how much I've lost in BB's scam, though. Whatever I have invested is ISK gone with some hope of it generating some passive income. If all investments went down in flames, the only thing gone would be dividends showing up every now and again.
Commander Godsmack	Posted - 2010.09.16 19:39:00 - [386] Bumping -> because i can
Steve Thomas Minmatar	Posted - 2010.09.16 23:53:00 - [387] Originally by: AtheistOfFail Originally by: Cheque Please HELTER SKELTER ... but I'm confused? If Bad Bobby can just kick the 5 director alt's out of the corp, what security does that even offer? I thought the point was so that he couldn't do just that and run off with everything. I guess someone royally ***ed up. Lesson to learn kids is, it's not secure unless it's actually secure. um no the lesson is its not actualy secure unless its in your wallet and your password looks like a copy of War and Peace that has been translated into Farsi and then 25k encripted .* . . . . . . . a (Long) Guide to Pi
Steve Thomas Minmatar	Posted - 2010.09.17 00:09:00 - [388] Originally by: zooming OK, so I lost about 3 Bil to this BB scam, and what angers me most (apart from my own stupidity for not selling up) is all the idiots who post on here saying "I knew it" or "It's obvious". .. So no one was willing to post this info on the MD forum! Or none of you were smart enough to see it, or you were too scared. Shame on all of you, a massive failure by Md. Because (a) the people who are able to learn from this more or less already know, I mean hell we have Ebanks perpetual whatever the hell it is Ray is doing with it as a prime example to people to keep there own damn money in there own damn wallet unless they honestly think its going to help there corp. (b) a lot of us do warn about crap like this. the problem is that usualy its glossed over by people who either are planing on trying to cash in on the scam themselves or people like you who think ok I will just ride this out for a while then bail out. . . kind of like the people who think there gettting in on ground floor of a Pyramid scam, to be blunt a lot of them know that its going to go bust in a short order, its just that while they think they are getting in on the "ground floor" of a scam, They forget the place to be in the first damn place is the penthouse. after all the ground floor is quite often the lowest level of the building to start with. . . . . . . . . a (Long) Guide to Pi
Capt Minor Amarr Informix Research	Posted - 2010.10.08 09:48:00 - [389] Yendor Widdershins said: I'll share my opinion. First, Eve is open-ended enough that it is one of small handful of games that can support an actual in-game business. So naturally people want to experiment and try their hand at it in the way that people try manufacturing, missioning, piracy, even scamming. Second, there is the daunting question: Given an environment in which scamming is possible, profitable, and subtly encouraged, is it even possible to have a genuinely successful business? Can it be secured and if so how? Can anything resembling trust be established in such an environment? Many people are fascinated by such questions, at least until they become jaded enough to conclude the answer is "no." So the cycle restarts. My point too. This is what make the "Monopoly" part of EVE probably the most realistic marked based game in the world except from the RL game of The global finansial marked. Btw. I am planning a small memorial for all this. More to follow.
Toshiro Miyamoto	Posted - 2010.10.21 03:14:00 - [390] There's no way Bad Bobby would do this himself. No way. His account had to be hacked. After all, I've been told by many that he has the Heart of a Sweet Child... ...and he keeps it in a glass case on the bridge of his ship. Bad Bobby, this isn't extortion. Pay me 500 million ISK or I might forget to tell everyone what a nice guy you are. ;)
eliaja	Posted - 2010.10.21 03:32:00 - [391] Edited by: eliaja on 21/10/2010 03:34:04 an the point of auditing is for? an dbank an ebank werent those audited? lol every time i read the threads i just burst with laughter.
Toshiro Miyamoto	Posted - 2010.10.21 03:54:00 - [392] Originally by: SencneS The whole morals in games equals morals in real life is stupidity personified... People that play EVE as a Pirate, do not go out in real life and attack and kill people willy nilly.. They don't stand in dark allies with weapons and hold people ransom, and then kill them if they do or don't get their demands. It's morally wrong to kill someone in real life, yet billions of online avatars die every single day at the hands of people who have never committed a felony in any sovereign state anywhere in the world. To say if someone steals something in a game, they are more apt to perform the same actions in real life is probably a sad sign of lack of intelligence or more the point lack of logical reasoning then anything else. The mentality of people who will always look for the 5 or 7 on 1 gank of a lone player trying to fly missions does say something. There are PvPers who are in it for the challenging fight - the true competition where skill and decisions strongly affect the outcome. There are also PvPers who are in it for the ability to mob a helpless target with no consequences. You automatically assume that it is morals in real life that prevents behavior similar to what some are responsible for in EVE. I would say that in some cases the reason they do not act in a similar manner in real life is that there would be actual consequences, and actual direct physical confrontation with very immediate consequences. Does in-game behavior reflect directly on real-life character? Not always, but sometimes it does, to a very small all the way up to a very large extent. I've been jumped by 5 guys, had my ship blown up, and forced to pay everything I had to avoid being podded. No complaints there, part of the game. I've had 1 of those 5 guys send me my ISK back and ask me to 'promise not to tell anyone they did it', to preserve their reputation as a heartless bastard. That right there speaks to real life character to a certain extent. My .02 ISK.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.10.21 08:03:00 - [393] Quote: It's like youÆre saying I should blame myself for an individual who took my ISK, and blame myself for the group that enabled it. This game attracts a certain kind of playerbase that in other games (and RL) would be seen in very negative light: besides "regular players", here we have a brilliant selection of those who are out to scam, rob etc. and those others who love to highlight and even support a pseudo all encompassing negativism, where the victim is obviously stupid (not just inexperienced), has not to be teached but suppressed, the scammer "outsmarted" all (not robbed) and should be applauded. Quote: It's like so called MD Elites just bend right over and inviting to be screwed over. But if they get something back well that's just extra ISK to add to the stack. A case of more money than sense perhaps? Success breeding complacency? Arrogance/lazy. Well whatever it is, I think the obvious lack of any real spirited kind of reaction shows something in itself I don't think it's MD elites being busy at their fail-job, hopefully they seem a race in slow extinction and only able to blah blah any more. It's a community where loud sociopaths preach the opportunity of killing the weak and the kind, the upstanding guy HAS to be a scammer (no other explanation possible), everyone has a price, new players should pass an ordaly (there's a corp whose members do all of this and the above). Quote: an the point of auditing is for? an dbank an ebank werent those audited? lol every time i read the threads i just burst with laughter. Auditing cannot be performed on those who always refused to be audited / made it impossible or even refused to justify their "privately owned corporation" decisions. Go back and read the records, THEN maybe you'll be able to post some informed material. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Hit Woman	Posted - 2010.10.21 11:38:00 - [394] -------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: It's like youÆre saying I should blame myself for an individual who took my ISK, and blame myself for the group that enabled it. This game attracts a certain kind of player-base that in other games (and RL) would be seen in very negative light: besides "regular players", here we have a brilliant selection of those who are out to scam, rob etc. and those others who love to highlight and even support a pseudo all encompassing negativism, where the victim is obviously stupid (not just inexperienced), has not to be teached but suppressed, the scammer "outsmarted" all (not robbed) and should be applauded. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Vaerah, you are really posting some cruft here. BB wormed his way into MD and ground out rep, he then took the ISK of people who trusted him. This is not clever. I find it astonishing that posters do not attack his behavior more.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2011.01.06 19:20:00 - [395] Originally by: flakeys So BB aka Daddy Cool from now on ,what i would like to know was this your intention from the start or did the amount you could scam slowly started working on your greed? lol Looks like I've missed quite a party here, however... I'm not sure why everyone is praising Bad Bobby, on my intelligence scale he never scored higher than Ricdic or Shadarle. Despite what he makes it sound, scamming only became a distinct option at some point after he got bored and his alliance collapsed. An interesting thing to note is that in the case of these not so bright individuals, the resilience of their offerings is only matched by the damage they cause in the end. What happens if Jerry gets bored? Leaving the Sphere movie aside, I must say that scamming is best served early on, close and personal. Anything else sounds ******ed. Black Sun Empire
Acrior	Posted - 2011.01.06 19:41:00 - [396] Originally by: YouGotRipped Originally by: flakeys So BB aka Daddy Cool from now on ,what i would like to know was this your intention from the start or did the amount you could scam slowly started working on your greed? lol Looks like I've missed quite a party here, however... I'm not sure why everyone is praising Bad Bobby, on my intelligence scale he never scored higher than Ricdic or Shadarle. Despite what he makes it sound, scamming only became a distinct option at some point after he got bored and his alliance collapsed. An interesting thing to note is that in the case of these not so bright individuals, the resilience of their offerings is only matched by the damage they cause in the end. What happens if Jerry gets bored? Leaving the Sphere movie aside, I must say that scamming is best served early on, close and personal. Anything else sounds ******ed.
Bad Bobby The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2011.01.06 20:04:00 - [397] Originally by: YouGotRipped he got bored and his alliance collapsed. Since when?
Kalrand GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.01.06 22:41:00 - [398] Originally by: Bad Bobby Originally by: YouGotRipped he got bored and his alliance collapsed. Since when? He probably saw "Bob" and stopped reading right there.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2011.01.12 12:53:00 - [399] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 12/01/2011 12:56:27 Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: Are you religious or have been indoctrinated in some form of thought? In theory, maybe. I wish I was. Life would be easier. I try simplifying things because a life of shades affects my perennial search for a sense in life, admitting there's one. May I interest you in some oriental philosophy, Vaerah? Zen in particular. Most of the people reading Zen adopt it as an existential philosophy, a way of life, very few manage to forget it. Few, indeed. Originally by: Bad Bobby Originally by: YouGotRipped he got bored and his alliance collapsed. Since when? I'm sorry, was that the only thing you found to not be accurate in my reply? Black Sun Empire
Jovan Geldon Gallente Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire	Posted - 2011.01.12 13:55:00 - [400] Remind me again why this was necro'd?
Honey Lovetrap	Posted - 2011.01.12 19:57:00 - [401] I missed on this. I wanted to invest, but something prevented me, and for that I am happy. I am sorry for all who lost theirs ISK, but this thread is nice example that some of EvE mechanic really need to be updated, for example implementation of golden share, ability to veto some votes for example.

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