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Kuggington	Posted - 2005.01.12 04:00:00 - [121] Originally by: Meridius I hope this topic dies now. It appears the devs would rather boost projectiles then nerf megapulse. If you disagree with boosting other guns, you're an idiot. End of story. Also, i hope the devs reduce the amount of cap hybrids use, they use way too much compared to lasers. Yes, this is exactly what more people should be saying.
Kaylona Tso	Posted - 2005.01.12 04:03:00 - [122] BTW all this grief and anger you see here is also coming from the person who in every thread about "what frig/cruiser config for my XXX ship" is the one preaching small lasers even on cruisers and BCs... i love lasers. I love geddons. I own them, have owned them, and if they blow up I will own them again. I love mallers... I use them daily. I have the amarr frig 5 which is the most worthless skill to have for interceptors. I like amarrian stuff... but I will not allow my love for something to interfere with something that is a clear and present failure.... the level field of battleship weaponry. -----
Meridius	Posted - 2005.01.12 04:03:00 - [123] Originally by: Kaylona Tso And if you don't want to see anything happen to your pretty guns then why don't you join in with us Projectile users and say what I said the very first thread about projectiles sucking : Increase Tracking Slightly Increase Warp in distance to include 100k Give Typhoon another Turret point Boost Damage mod of the Tempest bonus oh but then you would have to actually deal with a long range setup actually working... which might make it harder to kill us Minny Pilots... so I guess its easier to just stall momentum with complaints that are unwarranted. I'm all for projectile boosts, just not all the ones you mention here (tempest dmg bonus (projectiles are already getting a dmg boost). ________________________________________________________
Kaylona Tso	Posted - 2005.01.12 04:08:00 - [124] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Kaylona Tso And if you don't want to see anything happen to your pretty guns then why don't you join in with us Projectile users and say what I said the very first thread about projectiles sucking : Increase Tracking Slightly Increase Warp in distance to include 100k Give Typhoon another Turret point Boost Damage mod of the Tempest bonus oh but then you would have to actually deal with a long range setup actually working... which might make it harder to kill us Minny Pilots... so I guess its easier to just stall momentum with complaints that are unwarranted. I'm all for projectile boosts, just not all the ones you mention here (tempest dmg bonus (projectiles are already getting a dmg boost). Um... so when can we finally hava a role. There is no reason to have a long range setup not even for NPC hunting. When will 1400mm have a role that a tach cannot do better? even megathrons can do as good as a pest ~115km. Dude... damage increase... thats nowhere near the tip of a fix... the whole system is farked. a damage boost to fix the guns would have to be _WAY_TOO_MUCH_ to be be worth NOT putting megapulses on a tempest. If a long range setup needs a tackler... then why not a ganka setup that just uses megapulses and up to the 60k warp in range and keep the wingman to be safer tackler. I mean the whole point of this thread is that megapulses make nearly ever gun for BSs useless and not roleplayable... so PIE gets to roleplay with their own weapons while noone else really can. -----
Shidhe	Posted - 2005.01.12 04:11:00 - [125] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: CCP Hammer The goal is to make projectiles "suck less" without turning them into the next flavor of the month. The plan is to give them a slight nudge here and there based on their intended role. I'd rather give multiple small nudges than boost them too much and have to nerf them. No one likes being nerfed. . I hope this topic dies now. It appears the devs would rather boost projectiles then nerf megapulse. If you disagree with boosting other guns, you're an idiot. End of story. Also, i hope the devs reduce the amount of cap hybrids use, they use way too much compared to lasers. Boost projectiles? - needed anyway for game balance vs other weapons, not the megapulse. But if megapulse stays as it is, then we will need another projectile boost on top of this one to ensure balance!! Another +20 dam/+20 tracking anyone?
Meridius	Posted - 2005.01.12 04:15:00 - [126] Originally by: Kaylona Tso Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Kaylona Tso And if you don't want to see anything happen to your pretty guns then why don't you join in with us Projectile users and say what I said the very first thread about projectiles sucking : Increase Tracking Slightly Increase Warp in distance to include 100k Give Typhoon another Turret point Boost Damage mod of the Tempest bonus oh but then you would have to actually deal with a long range setup actually working... which might make it harder to kill us Minny Pilots... so I guess its easier to just stall momentum with complaints that are unwarranted. I'm all for projectile boosts, just not all the ones you mention here (tempest dmg bonus (projectiles are already getting a dmg boost). Um... so when can we finally hava a role. There is no reason to have a long range setup not even for NPC hunting. When will 1400mm have a role that a tach cannot do better? even megathrons can do as good as a pest ~115km. Dude... damage increase... thats nowhere near the tip of a fix... the whole system is farked. a damage boost to fix the guns would have to be _WAY_TOO_MUCH_ to be be worth NOT putting megapulses on a tempest. If a long range setup needs a tackler... then why not a ganka setup that just uses megapulses and up to the 60k warp in range and keep the wingman to be safer tackler. I mean the whole point of this thread is that megapulses make nearly ever gun for BSs useless and not roleplayable... so PIE gets to roleplay with their own weapons while noone else really can. Hey man, don't tell me, i'm on your side. I don't use minmatar ships, don't expect me to think of solutions for your ships Post in the projectiles thread hammer has made. I would very much like to see projectiles/minmatar improved and most importantly, given a proper combat role. ________________________________________________________
Meridius	Posted - 2005.01.12 04:16:00 - [127] Originally by: Kaylona Tso I have the amarr frig 5 which is the most worthless skill to have for interceptors. You have a lot to learn my friend ________________________________________________________
Kaylona Tso	Posted - 2005.01.12 04:19:00 - [128] I really hope the devs are working on a new gun system while we quibble here on the forums. I hope it brings everything into balance. I hope it ****es amarrians that think they are too good for a nerf off. I hope then a fleet of angry pest owners go and destroy the pie fleets guarding the 1.0 systems ( hahaha ) just because of the arrogance they showed when real people with real money paying for subs that weren't amarrians tried to have a fun but the cries of a 1000 amarrian roleplayers drowned out the facts being said. And I surely can't wait until the Jovians invade Amarr and enslave their false God ( nudge poke nudge at PIE in love ). -----
Kaylona Tso	Posted - 2005.01.12 04:26:00 - [129] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Kaylona Tso I have the amarr frig 5 which is the most worthless skill to have for interceptors. You have a lot to learn my friend sorry but i rather fly a claw. i know how to pvp and i know how to pve and doubt you could teach me anything new or interesting. its also a worthless skill to have for assault ships because we all know the amarrian ones suck too. Sorry but I rather fly a maller or any other races assault frig. The wolf dominates amarr elite frigs. I don't mind things being uneven in those areas because the amarrian heavy assault ships and logistics are better than the other races versions. Its more roleplayed to the NPC design shops. T1 stuff should be more balanced oriented. They should be specialized. They should all have certain roles. I don't mine defficiencies in my tempest as long as it can do something better than any other ship. Same goes for my geddon OR apoc OR raven. I think the dominix and scorpion are the only 2 battleships that have a role noone else can compare with. There are contenders but they don't compare. The rest are nobrainer decisions: Raven for quick pvp dominance and amarrian for a more hand selected and ship piloting skilled player. -----
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.01.12 05:29:00 - [130] Assault frigs be damned, they're abortions of balance and I won't touch one until they're boosted... but the Crusader is probably the best interceptor there is.
Bobbeh	Posted - 2005.01.12 06:31:00 - [131] I suggest the following, if you people wanna keep your uber dmg geddons make it so that, they have incredible trouble tracking <13km or so. Also, in all fairness, 1400mm's need a boost. Slight bonus to tracking of turrets (maybe 10%) which would mean only 1 tracking pc II would be required to hit something. Damage bonus as it already is. (the proposed 15% or whatever) Falloff bonus, imo emp should hit at 90km, then a tempest would be worthwile. Typhoon gets a 5th turret slot and the 2nd bonus it has becomes a falloff bonus as opposed to optimal range. Mimiru > It'd be a tie, the monkies nerfed pooflinger wouldnt have enough tracking to hit the parrot orbiting him, but the parrot's beak is so small it couldnt break the monkey's fur tanking.
Gaven Lok'ri	Posted - 2005.01.12 06:35:00 - [132] Originally by: Kaylona Tso Megabeams were king and geddons where mining machines... And once Tachyons were pretty much the most powerful weapon in the game and they got nurfed, and then it took the devs months to make amarr ships more than mere mining machines. Id prefer not to see us go through that again. So leave the good ships and weapons the way they are and make the other ones compete in their way. The way I see it Caldari and Amarr are on one level of balance and Gallente and Minmatar are on another older one. So go back to the old weapons standards and such on all ships, or specialise the remaining two so that they have a purpose. Ill take the second one. So put the energy you could put into complaining for a nerf of your opponents items into getting decent equipment for your side and maybe you will accomplish more in the long run. Nobiscum Deus! Ave Doriam II!
Admiral IceBlock	Posted - 2005.01.12 06:38:00 - [133] reduce mega pulse range by 25%. reduce the laser cap bonus on amarrian ships from 10% to 7,5% or 5%. "We brake for nobody"
Arthur Guinness	Posted - 2005.01.12 07:42:00 - [134] MegaPulse need a range or tracking reduction, call it nerf if you want. Fact is, it's their range and good tracking that makes them as good as they are. You can fit a gun that operates from 5 to 60km, this means you wont need an mwd. Blasterthrons need an mwd, tempest pilots with 800mm's are better of using an afterburner, but they too will nee a speed module to keep their targets within 25km range. If you compare the base cap of ships, it's quiet clear that an arma can run 7 mega pulse and tank without cap injector, tempest and megathrons can not. All other races got short range guns with ok tracking and ****ty range, amarr got a short range (yes it works at less than 10km) gun with ok tracking and 60km range. If you reduce the mega pulses to about 40km effective range with Radio things will look more balanced. I been using armas and apocs for some time now. I only recently decided pvp with only amarr and caldari ships is boring and got into my tempest (now typhoon), i haven't found a gun for my tempest yet that's as versatile as a mega pulse on my arma or apoc.
MrRookie	Posted - 2005.01.12 07:42:00 - [135] Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri Originally by: Kaylona Tso Megabeams were king and geddons where mining machines... And once Tachyons were pretty much the most powerful weapon in the game and they got nurfed, and then it took the devs months to make amarr ships more than mere mining machines. Id prefer not to see us go through that again. So leave the good ships and weapons the way they are and make the other ones compete in their way. The way I see it Caldari and Amarr are on one level of balance and Gallente and Minmatar are on another older one. So go back to the old weapons standards and such on all ships, or specialise the remaining two so that they have a purpose. Ill take the second one. So put the energy you could put into complaining for a nerf of your opponents items into getting decent equipment for your side and maybe you will accomplish more in the long run. Exactly what I was thinking. Destroy a perfectly fine gun... _____________________________________________ \o/ I got a siggy... WTB 3x Medium Modulated Pulse Energy Beams http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=139877
Black Lotus	Posted - 2005.01.12 08:05:00 - [136] Well from experience ingame, This so-called "graph" if u will... Obviuosly does not take ship bonus's into account. Try and armor tanked apoc (max skills guns and ship), with either a armor tank fit and mega pulse, or dmg fit ( 2 large armor, 5 heatsinks) VS, a TEMPEST PVP fit, 6 800's, 6 gyro 2's , shield tank. IMO this graph means nuthing. And the graph obivously left out alot of facts, like dmg types, and ship bonus's. Go ahead and nerf mega pulse, but while ur at it, give the apoc a 5% dmg and ROF bonus like the tempest. Take 1 low away, and add a mid, so it can fully fit for dmg output and shield tank. This game is un-balanced because the wrong people are testing equipment, and the wrong people are complaining how their ship sucks, when in actual fact, they just have no idea how to fit it. Thx.
Riddari	Posted - 2005.01.12 08:54:00 - [137] What a pitiful shameful thread. I fly apoc/arma/mega/dominix and have briefly jumped into the other bships. While I agree that the megapulses are a very nice weapon, they aren't really that great below 10km, at least I am not hitting an awful lot EXCEPT a battleships below that range so I have no idea what everyone is moaning about there. What is true is that hybrids have a really **ty time because they use too much cap, that's not the fault of the megapulse. Amarr don't have a blaster type, they have a medium type in the pulse weapons and a long range type in the beams. Now as for the graph, here we are looking at two tier 2 battleships versus a tier 1 battleship which has the pure role of being a damage dealer and is honestly pretty poor at anything else, including tanking. This is for me like comparing the Moa and the Thorax, both damagedealers to the Exequeror and complaining how big of a cargo it has, it's specialist role is hauling just like the specialist role of the Armageddon is damage. A blasterthron will eat an apoc or an arma at 10km and below. You can't doubt that, the apoc might last a bit longer if it has the right hardeners on but the DOT is just too great and the mega pulses aren't that great at this close range. Quite a few people are making themselves look like whining fools in this thread, and it ain't PIE. ¼©¼ a history**
mahhy	Posted - 2005.01.12 09:02:00 - [138] What the hell is everyone going off for? We all know the mega pulse has too much range. We all know the damage it deals is NOT over the top. Why is there any arguement here at all? Hak is right, and I've said it before too, reduce the guns range. Leave the damage and tracking alone. Go play with the other turrets and fix their problems. When one highly damaging turret (comparable damage to blasters and 800's) can do its work at 10km -> 60km then theres an obvious problem. The majority of PvP takes place within that range, meaning that for the majority of PvP us Amarrian pilots really have no need to think about what we fit. We don't decide if we want to go long range or short range, we just throw on mega pulse. Give us up to 200km warp in ranges too while you're at it Then the question of long or short range combat will really mean something.
mahhy	Posted - 2005.01.12 09:07:00 - [139] Originally by: Black Lotus Well from experience ingame, This so-called "graph" if u will... Obviuosly does not take ship bonus's into account. Erm, isn't that the exact point of including the Armageddon in this graph versus other races Tier 2 BS's? Because the Arma gets the RoF bonus?
Riddari	Posted - 2005.01.12 09:16:00 - [140] Originally by: mahhy Originally by: Black Lotus Well from experience ingame, This so-called "graph" if u will... Obviuosly does not take ship bonus's into account. Erm, isn't that the exact point of including the Armageddon in this graph versus other races Tier 2 BS's? Because the Arma gets the RoF bonus? But the Arma doesn't have the tanking ability of the other two ships nor the hitpoints nor the medium slots? This is comparable to showing the effect of using a multispectral jammer, comparing the Scorpion to the Apoc and the Tempest. It doesn't tell you anything about the outcome of a battle between those ships, it doesn't tell you the overall picture at all. ¼©¼ a history
Andrue	Posted - 2005.01.12 09:21:00 - [141] Originally by: Hakera Edited by: Hakera on 11/01/2005 18:02:49 Following on from Hammerhead's data - I think TomB should be allowed his nerf bat back with regards to the megapulse and its awesome range as said lots of times by others in many other threads Good graph. I particularly like the way it confirms what I found out last night. You can't hit a Mortifier when it's 1100 metres away but it can hit you. Luckily I was able to warp away with 20% armour left -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
mahhy	Posted - 2005.01.12 09:37:00 - [142] Edited by: mahhy on 12/01/2005 09:38:32 Originally by: Riddari Originally by: mahhy Originally by: Black Lotus Well from experience ingame, This so-called "graph" if u will... Obviuosly does not take ship bonus's into account. Erm, isn't that the exact point of including the Armageddon in this graph versus other races Tier 2 BS's? Because the Arma gets the RoF bonus? But the Arma doesn't have the tanking ability of the other two ships nor the hitpoints nor the medium slots? This is comparable to showing the effect of using a multispectral jammer, comparing the Scorpion to the Apoc and the Tempest. It doesn't tell you anything about the outcome of a battle between those ships, it doesn't tell you the overall picture at all. I believe the discussion here is regarding the turret, not the ship. In this case, comparing the Arma to the other Tier 2 BS's is completely logical since these 3 ships are the one that get dmg and/or rof bonuses. edit: to be a bit clearer, the ships tanking ability, number of medslots etc, has no direct relation on the turrets performance (without modules) whereas the ship bonuses do. We could of course compare the other BS's mounting the same guns as well, but it would show the same thing, more or less. A very large range on the mega pulse versus the other guns. Do any BS's get a range bonus? And thats what Hakera (and myself) are saying. Simply reduce the range of the mega pulse so we need to decide between fitting mega pulse for short range and mega beams for long range. Thats a logical comparison between Blasters and Rails, and 800's and 1400's/1200's.
Loka	Posted - 2005.01.12 09:41:00 - [143] Edited by: Loka on 12/01/2005 09:43:33 Mega Pulses are too good. But not dmgwise. The Range/Tracking is the problem I will give you an excample (Basevalues!!!): speed = the max speed of a victim, that your ship still can track at optimal! Hybrids: 425mm: opt = 48km \| speed <= 480 m/s 350mm: opt = 36km \| speed <= 460 m/s Dual 250mm: opt = 6km \| speed <= 400 m/s Neutron Cannon: opt = 6km \| speed <= 250 m/s Ion Cannon: : opt = 5km \| speed <= 230 m/s Electron Cannon: opt = 4km \| speed <= 240 m/s Projectiles: 1400mm: opt = 40km \| speed <= 360 m/s 800mm: opt = 4km \| speed <= 160 m/s Lasers: Mega Pulse Laser: opt = 28km \| speed <= 800 m/s Dual Pulse Laser: opt = 25km \| speed <= 750 m/s Mega Beams: opt = 40km \| speed <= 612 m/s Tachyons: opt = 44km \| speed <= 580 m/s I think everybody and his pet can see whats the problem here. Long Range Lasers ~25% better tracking at optimal then long Range Hybrids. Long Range Hybrids ~30% better tracking than long Range Projectiles. Imo thats fine, because of the Role. But then again the Projectiles should have the longes hitting range, then Hybrids and last Lasers. BEWARE: Dont make the guns equal, or things will get boring. Different roles with different adv. disadvatages ist the key for everything. No lets compare the Mega Pulse with the Neutron and 800mm. Mega Pulse have 300% better tracking then Neutron guns and Neutrons have 50% better tracking then 800mm. OH sure you said Mega Pulse are supposed to be Med Range guns (lol). Then still the Mega Pulse has 200% better tracking then the ultimative mid range gun Dual 250mm. All weapons seems fine. All weapons seem to have similiar Tracking at optimal, regardin their role. Amarr best tracking, then Gallente and last Minmatar. The large Pulse Lasers are only gun not fitting in this. They have to good tracking, compairing to their optimal. Resolution would be either reduce Optimal or reduce tracking! Option 1: Reduce Optimal Mega Pulse Laser: opt = 12-14km \| speed <= 350 m/s Dual Pulse Laser: opt = 10km \| speed <= 300 m/s Option 2: Reduce Tracking by at least 50%! : Mega Pulse Laser: opt = 28km \| speed <= 380 m/s (0,0135 rad/s) Dual Pulse Laser: opt = 24km \| speed <= 340 m/s (0,015 rad/s) Still the Lasers would be the best tracking guns and the dmg isnt that bad compared to blasters and autocannons. The lasers have other advatages like no ammo, fast swaping of crystals and Amarrians have lot of PG to fit best guns. The disadvatages is that their guns are not the hardest hitter. Atm there is 0.0000000000 disadvatages you could name me. With the Amarrian huge PG Bonus, they will still be on top, because they will still be able to fit the BEST guns on all high, were other will have to fit mix or guns of less quality, due to PG restrictions. Therefore overall performance of the Amarrians still will supirior regarding Tanking + Offense, but they came much closer to the normal ships, which have to think about their setup each time they undock. _____________________________________ Dead or Alive
mahhy	Posted - 2005.01.12 09:44:00 - [144] Originally by: Loka Still the Lasers would be the best tracking guns and the dmg isnt that bad compared to blasters and autocannons. The lasers have other advatages like no ammo, fast swaping of crystals and Amarrians have lot of PG to fit best guns. The disadvatages is that their guns are not the hardest hitter. I prefer the range reduction. I think its the best option for turning mega pulse into short range weapons. We already have the mega beam/tachyon for longer ranges. Btw, the fact that Amarrians have lots of grid is totally beside the point. We're chronically short on CPU, and large turrets start eating CPU really really fast if you don't have the right skills (or nice named mods of course)
Arthur Guinness	Posted - 2005.01.12 10:00:00 - [145] Originally by: mahhy Originally by: Loka Still the Lasers would be the best tracking guns and the dmg isnt that bad compared to blasters and autocannons. The lasers have other advatages like no ammo, fast swaping of crystals and Amarrians have lot of PG to fit best guns. The disadvatages is that their guns are not the hardest hitter. I prefer the range reduction. I think its the best option for turning mega pulse into short range weapons. We already have the mega beam/tachyon for longer ranges. Btw, the fact that Amarrians have lots of grid is totally beside the point. We're chronically short on CPU, and large turrets start eating CPU really really fast if you don't have the right skills (or nice named mods of course) At least you can find named stuff that uses less cpu. And there's a lot of skills for cpu reduction on modules. I only know of one skills that reduces grid needs (Shield Upgrades), and of no named module that uses less grid. But it's beside the point i think, i've never really had probs fitting my arma or apoc. I do have a lot of named equipment and maxed fitting skills tough.
Loka	Posted - 2005.01.12 10:06:00 - [146] Try to fit a decent Neutron Blaster fitted Megathron and try same with an Armageddon or Apoc. And now pls tell me again about fittingproblems. Dont forgett the Mega Pulse are the best short Range gun the Amarraians have. I think 1 CPU II should remove the last problem with fitting. Tell me how many PDU II/RCU II a Megathron would have to fit for a 7xNeutron Blaster setup? Not to speak that the Megathron dont has any slots it can spare for such things, without gimping itselfs defense to 0. Tell only one thing. Is there ANY Amarrian Pilot who EVER was forced to fit only once Dual Pulse Lasers? Without fitting 2 large AR? Almost no Megathrons can even fit more than one without gimping their offense to a laughable level. _____________________________________ Dead or Alive
Cole Darkman	Posted - 2005.01.12 10:23:00 - [147] I think the problem is not the power of Apocs/Geddons in regards of fitting or dmg/tracking, but it i s the fact that earlier in the game, they had to pay a price for it: CAP. Now you don`t need to anymore... which results in uber damage and tracking and no disadvantages over the other ship/guntypes.
mahhy	Posted - 2005.01.12 10:28:00 - [148] Originally by: Loka Try to fit a decent Neutron Blaster fitted Megathron and try same with an Armageddon or Apoc. And now pls tell me again about fittingproblems. Dont forgett the Mega Pulse are the best short Range gun the Amarraians have. I think 1 CPU II should remove the last problem with fitting. Tell me how many PDU II/RCU II a Megathron would have to fit for a 7xNeutron Blaster setup? Not to speak that the Megathron dont has any slots it can spare for such things, without gimping itselfs defense to 0. Tell only one thing. Is there ANY Amarrian Pilot who EVER was forced to fit only once Dual Pulse Lasers? Without fitting 2 large AR? Almost no Megathrons can even fit more than one without gimping their offense to a laughable level. Lets not let the thread get completely de-railed here. I can in fact think of some fittings where CPU forces you fit one or two slightly "lesser" guns i.e. the Dual Heavy Beam or Pulse. But again, we're not talking about the ships here ffs. The mega pulse as is, is NOT a short range weapon, its at the least a medium range weapon (since hits well out to 60km or more I personally consider it a med to long range weapon). But it comes close to other races short range weapons in damage. Thats the issue we're discussing in this thread.
Hakera	Posted - 2005.01.12 10:29:00 - [149] Originally by: mahhy Btw, the fact that Amarrians have lots of grid is totally beside the point. We're chronically short on CPU, and large turrets start eating CPU really really fast if you don't have the right skills (or nice named mods of course) just as a tempest user needs 1 or 2 RCU just to fit 61400mm or a thron with 425mm, every ship is designed that way so using the largest guns should require low slot dedication. anyway yup as I suggested in this thread, its a range reduction not dmg reduction. Dumbledore - Eve-I.com*
Riddari	Posted - 2005.01.12 10:29:00 - [150] Reducing the max range of mega pulses is ok by me. 60km range is a tad excessive ¼©¼ a history

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