What the hell are you complaining about?

cap reduction bonus for local tanks may help new players manage exploration sites better without making them overpowered for PVP.

It can't fit all the modules needed in lowsec exploration, making it the worst choice.

Before the buff it was superior in combat abilities because of drones, now the rest get the same advantages but can fit all the modules.

No ship in this game should be meant for hisec only, what kind of idea that even is?

The cloak certainly is the module that is fitted on all probing ships used outside the starter systems. This means that the Imicus must do without a salvager, a module which would benefit new players in their ISK-gathering ventures.

It doesn't need four mid slots, it needs a third high. Just like the Helios. The other ships are not down a slot, they all have the same amount. Just better slot layouts, allowing them to fit all modules needed for running profession sites.

Again, I'd argue that the cloak is not required in low sec and is most certainly not required in high sec. All you're doing is arguing in favor of homogeneity and nerfing the Imicus.

-Liang

My question still is, "What's the use of these things outside of highsec exploration?" It doesn't scout for PvP as well as a cov ops, and it's useless at pretty much everything else. Seems like you'll hop into it to learn how to probe, and then hop out of it forever once you get a covops ... unless highsec exploration is your passion in EVE.

Nerfing the Imicus for PVP. The kicker here is that this ship isn't designed for PVP.

What I am up in arms about (I'm not really ;-) is that if this trend is set then the Helios will be gimped because of similar reasoning. The first thing you do after you train for a Helios is training for another races Cover Ops because you realize how much it sucks.

If they actually come through with light salvager drones then I would be fine with the loss of a high slot.

The Helios is the best covops and the only reason I ever trained another was because it looks so ******* ugly since they nerfed it's face.

-Liang

Ed: I should say that I've got perhaps 100 kills in a Helios. It's hard to know because I didn't post mails back then. :P

How about we get ships that are good for their role rather than PVP? You seen to be skewed toward the PvP side of things rather than providing feedback for a exploration/scout vessel.

I've already illustrated that cloaks are not mandatory in low sec, and that the Imicus is in fact a superior vessel to the other ships. Back under your bridge, troll.

-Liang

Aren't you the one that started talking about PvPing in a Helious ?-)

Again: It is not mandatory to fit a cloak to this ship. It does not need three high slots. You're trolling because you're bored at work.

-Liang

I agree that the range bonuses should also apply to the salvager module too and kinda agree with Takeshi that the bonuses themselves may not be that useful to begin with. As a new player I would think the cycle time, and scan strength are great. But a drone bonus would be much more useful than the range bonus.

Awesome stuff.

I think you confused yourself. I agreed with you with the Imicus but then we started talking about the Helios (take that spell correcter!). I conceded on the Imicus not the Helios. A covert ops ship needs a cloak + probe + utility high. Otherwise it will be subpar as scout/explorer. You seem to want the ship (again Helios not the Imicus) to be better at PVP rather than as a scout/explorer.

I'm on vacation again. Don't worry as I go back tomorrow. You can have free reign of the forums back then ;-)

What would be great to see alongside these hull tweaks is a wider role for the analyzer and codebreaker modules they fit so these hulls may see more diverse uses.

I want to sneak a Heron into hostile territory and hack hostile sov structures and PoCos.

Woooo! Now somebody is thinking! Something like this would be amazing. ^5

Here's some changes I thought would be more useful; take note of the variations to racial weapons, and the role bonus.

Magnate:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% increase to scan strength of probes
20% increase to the optimal range of small lasers
Role Bonus:
25% bonus to Codebreaker, Analyzer and Salvager cycle time
Slot layout: 4 H (+2), 2 M (+1), 3 L, 3 turrets (+1)
Fittings: 31 PWG (+9), 230 CPU (+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 250(+90) / 350(-36) / 220(-22)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 325 (+168.75)/ 180s (+62.8s)/ 1.8056 (+0.47)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 350 (+54) / 3.8 (-0.32) / 1072000 / 3.81s (-0.32s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5(-5) / 10
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 34km / 445 / 4
Sensor strength: 10 Radar
Signature radius: 39 (-4)
Cargo capacity: 400 (+243.75)


Heron:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% increase to scan strength of probes
10% increase to light missile and rocket flight time
Role Bonus:
25% bonus to Codebreaker, Analyzer and Salvager cycle time
Slot layout: 4 H (+2), 3 M , 2 L (+1), 3 launchers (+1)
Fittings: 31 PWG (+11), 270 CPU (+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 400(+126) / 200(-58) / 210(-16)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 245 (+88.75)/ 135s (+17.8s)/ 1.814 (+0.48)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 340 (+20) / 3.57 (+0.04) / 1150000 / 3.84s (+0.04s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5/ 10 (+5)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 37.5km / 430 / 4
Sensor strength: 12 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 40 (-8)
Cargo capacity: 420 (+263.75)


Imicus:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% increase to scan strength of probes
+5m3 increase to drone bay size
Role Bonus:
25% bonus to Codebreaker, Analyzer and Salvager cycle time
Slot layout: 2 H, 4 M (+2), 3 L (+1), 1 turrets (-1)
Fittings: 20 PWG, 240 CPU (+10)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 275(+50) / 325(-19) / 230(-59)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 270 (+113.75)/ 135s (+32.8s)/ 1.8 (+0.47)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330 (+52) / 4.15 (-0.04) / 997000 / 3.87s (+0.04s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 20(+5) / 25(+10)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 35km / 450 / 4
Sensor strength: 11 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 41 (-4)
Cargo capacity: 350 (+30)


Probe:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% increase to scan strength of probes
+20% increase to projectile weapon falloff
Role Bonus:
25% bonus to Codebreaker, Analyzer and Salvager cycle time
Slot layout: 4 H (+2), 3 M (+1), 2 L , 3 turret (+1)
Fittings: 30 PWG (+10), 240 CPU (+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 300(+105) / 300(+26) / 200(-74)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 235 (+78.75)/ 130s (+12.8s)/ 1.8 (+0.47)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 360 (+26) / 3.58 / 1123000 / 3.76s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5(-1) / 10
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 32.5km / 465 / 4
Sensor strength: 9 Ladar
Signature radius: 38 (-3)
Cargo capacity: 420 (+80)

It's possible a tracking bonus for the Probe would be more useful, as it'd be more likely to use artillery for kiting. Also, my PG numbers may not be entirely enough for some of the weapon fits, but they're a closer indication of what'd be required.

CCP Fozzie, This seems a much better idea. It would also teach new players how to kite using their racial weapons instead of the drones fit all solution. The ships also aren't mega overpowered for pvp but would still have a role as scout/prober who can take part in the combat.

Please considered this guys suggestion.

The combat bonuses Galphi has suggested are purely range orientated though.

They only offer a small amount of DPS but allow you to project that DPS. It does however give the hulls some flexibility and doesn't just fully shoehorn them into "This is a mini profesion ship and nothing else"

Yeah, it's the idea that there even are "mini" professions that I guess I'm uncomfortable with. Hacking/Archaeology are currently kind of a joke. It's just something you have to train to open a can in what is otherwise basically just another combat site. That's why trying to focus a ship on the concept just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Ideally, there would be a revamp of the concept. Sites/exploration would be its own thing, with a dedicated "science vessel" type of ship that could actually make use of the things it finds without having to go back to a station/POS to reship into something else completely.

For now, I guess making these into highsec-only exploration ships (and PvP scouts) is all that really makes sense until something like that can happen. Still, combat bonuses just don't fit. As long as they can run highsec radars/mags, and use a cloak/combat probes for PvP scouting that's about as good as it can get until a theoretical exploration revamp.

Currently, any which way you slice it, even with combat bonuses, you're still going to have to reship to run exploration sites outside of highsec, and putting combat bonuses on them doesn't help for PvP either since they'd be obsoleted by combat ships anyway, so ... for the time being they should probably just stick to highsec exploration and PvP scouting. Kinda sucks, but that's the way it goes I guess.