We felt that they were good enough as cyno ships as is, and that capital projection isn't really an area of the game that needs a buff right now.

Since cyno lighting is such a big part of their use, the equalized cargo capacity is intended to make sure that each of them can at least keep up with the old Probe.

The avenues for these ships to become more useful to older players most likely will lie with hacking and archaeology.

The idea of a profession site expedition vessel for newer players is good.

The role bonus increases the range on codebreakers and analyzers from 5 km to 7.5 km. First, why are salvagers excluded? Second, the bonus could be a lot higher - the spawn containers can be far apart.

Edit: a range bonus isn't even that useful when these ships will likely only carry 1 codebreaker and 1 analyzer and a prop mod to reach spawn containers faster. I'm not saying they need a better role bonus, I'm just pointing out how the current role bonus will barely do anything.

what about a module that covers both codebreaking and analyzing? so slot wise these ships wouldn't suffer on tank or such?

We felt that they were good enough as cyno ships as is, and that capital projection isn't really an area of the game that needs a buff right now.

Since cyno lighting is such a big part of their use, the equalized cargo capacity is intended to make sure that each of them can at least keep up with the old Probe.

The avenues for these ships to become more useful to older players most likely will lie with hacking and archaeology.

How about giving them a role bonus that decreases the speed penalty while under cloak? since these ships are the precursors of true covert ops ships, having this bonus makes sense.

While I see why you want drones as the main weapon, this really isn't fair to a young Caldari pilot. Many ships later on have no drone bay at all or negligible ones. This forces them to put SP into drones when they need to put it into missiles or *sigh* guns. Since the new secondary weapon for Amarr will be drones, it makes sense for them. Since Minmatar kinda use everything at this point, it makes sense for them. Gallente is a no brainer. Caldari makes no sense.

I would rather see this use the secondary weapon systems as the main weapons for each race.

Curious about the logic of keeping the Imicus (and then the Helios) to only two highs. Really cripples the ships.

While I see why you want drones as the main weapon, this really isn't fair to a young Caldari pilot. Many ships later on have no drone bay at all or negligible ones. This forces them to put SP into drones when they need to put it into missiles or *sigh* guns. Since the new secondary weapon for Amarr will be drones, it makes sense for them. Since Minmatar kinda use everything at this point, it makes sense for them. Gallente is a no brainer. Caldari makes no sense.

I would rather see this use the secondary weapon systems as the main weapons for each race.

With the Helios specifically, it kinda depends on what you're going for right? The only thing that the Helios can't really do is fit cloak + prober + cov cyno. But if that isn't what you're after, it makes a fantastic frigate with a great slot layout...

-Liang

With the Helios specifically, it kinda depends on what you're going for right? The only thing that the Helios can't really do is fit cloak + prober + cov cyno. But if that isn't what you're after, it makes a fantastic frigate with a great slot layout...

-Liang

I think most pilots benefit from being able to control scout drones at a decent level at various points in their careers.

Curious about the logic of keeping the Imicus (and then the Helios) to only two highs. Really cripples the ships.

The point is if every race is getting a exploration ship then the Gallente are not. Already we tell noobs don't train for the Helios because it can't fit a cloak + probe + other high slot (salvager, cyno, etc...). If we aren't going to be using the Imicus as a exploration ship then it should be removed from the game. A great slot layout with gimped stats doesn't make it a great frigate.

Please drop the drone bay down to 15m3 and move the mid slot to a high slot.

The "50% range bonus" is quite obviously "per level".

It's a role bonus. It's not per level.

This would be a stupid bonus. Hence, it must be per level.

One thing to think about is an exploration frig can only make use of 2 of the 6 site types: Mag and radar. The grav, ladar, combat and wormhole sites will not be accessible content to a frigate. (Unless the pilot likes exploding). Although the changes to the frigates are nice, they do not address this one issue. For a new explorer it is frustrating. Scanning down site after site that you cannot do anything with is not good game play. (Ive gone to using a T3 so I can do the combat sites, and skilling to use deep space probes so I can sort out most of the sites I do not want).

The changes needed to address this are not changes to the frigates though, but to exploration itself. It sure would be nice to have something like the old observer probe back. It gave you absolutely no information on site location, but it would tell you all the site types.

Or if the site type was shown at lower signal strength. And wormholes had a different type than combat sites (Say "Unstable").

Another thing to consider is low, null and W space operations. There you need 3 high slots: Cloak, probe launcher, and salvager. Not all these frigs have 3 highs. The result will again be: You scan a site and find its non-accessible content.
Edit: The salvager drone actually may resolve this issue, Load in one of those and you can live with 2 highs.

Hello again spacefriends! Today I'm going to share with you our current plans for the tech one probing frigates, coming this winter.

These ships are currently used for Cyno lighting more than anything else, and we want to build their role as frigates for exploring deep space (especially to provide more interesting exploration gameplay for new players). We hope to see them being used for solo highsec exploration for newer players, or to support the combat ships in an exploration group in wormholes or lawless space. They're getting bonuses to hacking, archeology and salvaging so you can use them to both probe and run mini-profession sites.
Their combat ability has also been directed at drones instead of weak weapon bonuses. We've designed them to be able to kill the rats in highsec mini-profession sites, although a combat frig will clear them faster. The ship isn't directly intended for a pvp role, so the ehp remains quite low and we skewed the fittings towards CPU and away from PG. Best way to kill the rats with this ship is fit a light active tank, drop drones and kite.

We wanted these ships to feel like an expedition vessel for newer players, something that can run sites independently and with enough cargo, no ammo use and extra dronespace to take long journeys away from their home base (even if they stay in highsec). If the style of ship is embraced then these could possibly serve as stepping stones into some kind of tech two "Science vessel" in the future.

Here's our current versions of the ships:

Magnate:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% increase to scan strength of probes
5% bonus to Codebreaker, Analyzer and Salvager cycle time
Role Bonus:
50% bonus to Codebreaker and Analyzer range
Slot layout: 3 H (+1), 3 M (+2), 3 L, 2 turrets, 2 launchers (+2)
Fittings: 25 PWG (+3), 220 CPU (+10)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 250(+90) / 350(-36) / 220(-22)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 325 (+168.75)/ 180s (+62.8s)/ 1.8056 (+0.47)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 350 (+54) / 3.8 (-0.32) / 1072000 / 3.81s (-0.32s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 15(+5) / 40(+30)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 34km / 445 / 4
Sensor strength: 10 Radar
Signature radius: 39 (-4)
Cargo capacity: 400 (+243.75)


Heron:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% increase to scan strength of probes
5% bonus to Codebreaker, Analyzer and Salvager cycle time
Role Bonus:
50% bonus to Codebreaker and Analyzer range
Slot layout: 3 H (+1), 4 M (+1), 2 L (+1), 2 turrets (+1), 2 launchers
Fittings: 23 PWG (+3), 250 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 400(+126) / 200(-58) / 210(-16)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 245 (+88.75)/ 135s (+17.8s)/ 1.814 (+0.48)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 340 (+20) / 3.57 (+0.04) / 1150000 / 3.84s (+0.04s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 15(+10) / 35(+25)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 37.5km / 430 / 4
Sensor strength: 12 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 40 (-8)
Cargo capacity: 400 (+243.75)


Imicus:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% increase to scan strength of probes
5% bonus to Codebreaker, Analyzer and Salvager cycle time
Role Bonus:
50% bonus to Codebreaker and Analyzer range
Slot layout: 2 H, 4 M (+2), 3 L (+1), 1 turrets (-1)
Fittings: 20 PWG, 240 CPU (+10)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 275(+50) / 325(-19) / 230(-59)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 270 (+113.75)/ 135s (+32.8s)/ 1.8 (+0.47)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330 (+52) / 4.15 (-0.04) / 997000 / 3.87s (+0.04s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 20(+5) / 40(+25)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 35km / 450 / 4
Sensor strength: 11 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 41 (-4)
Cargo capacity: 400 (+80)


Probe:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% increase to scan strength of probes
5% bonus to Codebreaker, Analyzer and Salvager cycle time
Role Bonus:
50% bonus to Codebreaker and Analyzer range
Slot layout: 3 H (+1), 3 M (+1), 3 L (+1), 2 turrets, 2 launchers (+2)
Fittings: 24 PWG (+4), 230 CPU (+10)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 300(+105) / 300(+26) / 200(-74)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 235 (+78.75)/ 130s (+12.8s)/ 1.8 (+0.47)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 360 (+26) / 3.58 / 1123000 / 3.76s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 15(+5) / 35(+25)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 32.5km / 465 / 4
Sensor strength: 9 Ladar
Signature radius: 38 (-3)
Cargo capacity: 400 (+80)

Let us know what you think!

Personally I'd rather see a role bonus for CPU reduction on probe launchers than range for your codebreaking/analyzing modules. As other people have stated, you still need to get within 2.5km to pick up whatever you're cracking, and with a 6km range on T2 codebreaker/analyzers there's no need for 9km.

All that said, I would love to use these for the new purpose as a strictly codebreaker/analyzer ship, but a Blackbird/Falcon is still better (at least for my niche purposes). Any chance of a T2 ship, or a Noctis-like ship with this focus coming?

Also for shield tanking these frigs, you're looking at a mid for your AB, and two for your Codebreaker/Analyzer. This means only the Heron can really fit a (one slot!) shield tank.

Imicus > Vexor > Ishtar
Magnate > Arby > ?

Also for shield tanking these frigs, you're looking at a mid for your AB, and two for your Codebreaker/Analyzer. This means only the Heron can really fit a (one slot!) shield tank.

Maybe a boost to the ability to succeed at the actual hacking, salvaging and analysis instead of a range bonus. The drones make sense to me as my exploration ships have usually depended heavily on drones but it does seem a bit too homogenous. Overall, I like the changes.

Eventually, yes. They are great in a BS or a BC. My problem is that this ship has more drones than a Caracal, the next step in the line of Caldari missile ships. That SP would be better placed in missiles for a young player.

There also is a question of scaling. Drones do not scale well with Caldari. If they make exploration a line of ships, then an exploration drone cruiser makes even less sense for the Caldari. I would like to see exploration become more than what it is. It should be a viable alternative to missions.

That I can explian: the Imicus has 4 drones.

All of the others have 3 drones and 3 highs.
All of them have 6 total offensive... thingies. o.O?

As for the Helios, it and T2 ships will be tweaked (at least slightly) down the line. T1 needs to be first though.

A lot of you have been mentioning that the role bonus to codebreaker and analyzer optimal is of limited use. The bonus was intended to be a quite minor convenience effect that was noticeable but not too powerful, with a secondary purpose of helping reinforce the idea in new players minds that these ships can be used for hacking and archaeology. We feel the bonus meets both of these goals fairly well, although we are open to changing it as we go forward. I however do not expect that it will be replaced with something as powerful as a tanking bonus or miniprofession success chance bonus.

So essentially the role bonus is merely a message that says "this ship is for hacking & archaeology".

(decently layed out design goals one can work with)

The point is if every race is getting a exploration ship then the Gallente are not. Already we tell noobs don't train for the Helios because it can't fit a cloak + probe + other high slot (salvager, cyno, etc...). If we aren't going to be using the Imicus as a exploration ship then it should be removed from the game. A great slot layout with gimped stats doesn't make it a great frigate.

Please drop the drone bay down to 15m3 and move the mid slot to a high slot.

... stuff...

I also do not believe that ships like these detract from the power or usefulness of the Gallente race in any way. Gallente remain the masters of drones, with Amarr and Minmatar behind them and Caldari in the rear. Introducing ships with unbonused light drones for each faction does not take anything away from the Gallente race, and all of you Gallente drone purists are going to have something to cheer about in my next frigate balance thread, I promise.

Give 'em an innate warp core stab strength of one point. Encourage rookies into lowsec exploration? :D

(Give 'em a gas harvesting bonus?)

I seriously disagree with the idea that these frigs should be limited to hisec. It's vital for EVE to do every little thing possible to encourage new players to leave the hisec starter systems as early as possibly, and out there you want a cloak on exploration vessels.

Good morning everyone.
Many people have mentioned cloaks in their feedback, either requesting a cloak bonus of some kind or discussing how the two highslots on the Imicus hurt its ability to fit a cloak. We do not consider cloaking to be part of the core use for these ships and therefore we're not likely to add a cloak bonus. Keep in mind that these are not covert ops ships, they are updates to the tech one probing frigates all of whom currently have just two highslots. Cloaks are of course an option, but we do not expect the lack of a third high to be a significant blow to the Imicus.

And something that makes life a bit more convenient. You can activate the modules a bit earlier and then move in to pick up the loot as the module cycles. It's supposed to be nice but not to bring down the house.

Yep, I'm starting to see a really ugly trend here. First, among the Electronic Warfare frigates, Gallente are the only race that don't get a "real one" with two EWAR bonuses, we only get one. And now this.

Good thing the game makes it so you're not tied into flying one race.

Good thing the game makes it so you're not tied into flying one race.

My question still is, "What's the use of these things outside of highsec exploration?" It doesn't scout for PvP as well as a cov ops, and it's useless at pretty much everything else. Seems like you'll hop into it to learn how to probe, and then hop out of it forever once you get a covops ... unless highsec exploration is your passion in EVE.

What's the use of a mining barge outside of mining?

I think you are underestimating the importance of that third high slot. Ask yourself what advantage does not having it give and why wouldnt a new player just train for one of the other races?

You're focusing so heavily on what that one high slot disallows (a cloak) that you aren't seeing that the Imicus is literally better than the other ships for most purposes.

-Liang

Better how? One drone makes it a slightly better combat ship but that is it. For a dedicated exploration ship it will be subpar compared to the rest.

What the hell are you complaining about?

cap reduction bonus for local tanks may help new players manage exploration sites better without making them overpowered for PVP.

It can't fit all the modules needed in lowsec exploration, making it the worst choice.

Before the buff it was superior in combat abilities because of drones, now the rest get the same advantages but can fit all the modules.

No ship in this game should be meant for hisec only, what kind of idea that even is?

The cloak certainly is the module that is fitted on all probing ships used outside the starter systems. This means that the Imicus must do without a salvager, a module which would benefit new players in their ISK-gathering ventures.

It doesn't need four mid slots, it needs a third high. Just like the Helios. The other ships are not down a slot, they all have the same amount. Just better slot layouts, allowing them to fit all modules needed for running profession sites.

Again, I'd argue that the cloak is not required in low sec and is most certainly not required in high sec. All you're doing is arguing in favor of homogeneity and nerfing the Imicus.

-Liang

My question still is, "What's the use of these things outside of highsec exploration?" It doesn't scout for PvP as well as a cov ops, and it's useless at pretty much everything else. Seems like you'll hop into it to learn how to probe, and then hop out of it forever once you get a covops ... unless highsec exploration is your passion in EVE.

Nerfing the Imicus for PVP. The kicker here is that this ship isn't designed for PVP.

What I am up in arms about (I'm not really ;-) is that if this trend is set then the Helios will be gimped because of similar reasoning. The first thing you do after you train for a Helios is training for another races Cover Ops because you realize how much it sucks.

If they actually come through with light salvager drones then I would be fine with the loss of a high slot.

The Helios is the best covops and the only reason I ever trained another was because it looks so ******* ugly since they nerfed it's face.

-Liang

Ed: I should say that I've got perhaps 100 kills in a Helios. It's hard to know because I didn't post mails back then. :P

How about we get ships that are good for their role rather than PVP? You seen to be skewed toward the PvP side of things rather than providing feedback for a exploration/scout vessel.

I've already illustrated that cloaks are not mandatory in low sec, and that the Imicus is in fact a superior vessel to the other ships. Back under your bridge, troll.

-Liang

Aren't you the one that started talking about PvPing in a Helious ?-)

Again: It is not mandatory to fit a cloak to this ship. It does not need three high slots. You're trolling because you're bored at work.

-Liang

I agree that the range bonuses should also apply to the salvager module too and kinda agree with Takeshi that the bonuses themselves may not be that useful to begin with. As a new player I would think the cycle time, and scan strength are great. But a drone bonus would be much more useful than the range bonus.

Awesome stuff.

I think you confused yourself. I agreed with you with the Imicus but then we started talking about the Helios (take that spell correcter!). I conceded on the Imicus not the Helios. A covert ops ship needs a cloak + probe + utility high. Otherwise it will be subpar as scout/explorer. You seem to want the ship (again Helios not the Imicus) to be better at PVP rather than as a scout/explorer.

I'm on vacation again. Don't worry as I go back tomorrow. You can have free reign of the forums back then ;-)

What would be great to see alongside these hull tweaks is a wider role for the analyzer and codebreaker modules they fit so these hulls may see more diverse uses.

I want to sneak a Heron into hostile territory and hack hostile sov structures and PoCos.

Woooo! Now somebody is thinking! Something like this would be amazing. ^5

Here's some changes I thought would be more useful; take note of the variations to racial weapons, and the role bonus.

Magnate:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% increase to scan strength of probes
20% increase to the optimal range of small lasers
Role Bonus:
25% bonus to Codebreaker, Analyzer and Salvager cycle time
Slot layout: 4 H (+2), 2 M (+1), 3 L, 3 turrets (+1)
Fittings: 31 PWG (+9), 230 CPU (+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 250(+90) / 350(-36) / 220(-22)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 325 (+168.75)/ 180s (+62.8s)/ 1.8056 (+0.47)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 350 (+54) / 3.8 (-0.32) / 1072000 / 3.81s (-0.32s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5(-5) / 10
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 34km / 445 / 4
Sensor strength: 10 Radar
Signature radius: 39 (-4)
Cargo capacity: 400 (+243.75)


Heron:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% increase to scan strength of probes
10% increase to light missile and rocket flight time
Role Bonus:
25% bonus to Codebreaker, Analyzer and Salvager cycle time
Slot layout: 4 H (+2), 3 M , 2 L (+1), 3 launchers (+1)
Fittings: 31 PWG (+11), 270 CPU (+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 400(+126) / 200(-58) / 210(-16)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 245 (+88.75)/ 135s (+17.8s)/ 1.814 (+0.48)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 340 (+20) / 3.57 (+0.04) / 1150000 / 3.84s (+0.04s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5/ 10 (+5)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 37.5km / 430 / 4
Sensor strength: 12 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 40 (-8)
Cargo capacity: 420 (+263.75)


Imicus:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% increase to scan strength of probes
+5m3 increase to drone bay size
Role Bonus:
25% bonus to Codebreaker, Analyzer and Salvager cycle time
Slot layout: 2 H, 4 M (+2), 3 L (+1), 1 turrets (-1)
Fittings: 20 PWG, 240 CPU (+10)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 275(+50) / 325(-19) / 230(-59)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 270 (+113.75)/ 135s (+32.8s)/ 1.8 (+0.47)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330 (+52) / 4.15 (-0.04) / 997000 / 3.87s (+0.04s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 20(+5) / 25(+10)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 35km / 450 / 4
Sensor strength: 11 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 41 (-4)
Cargo capacity: 350 (+30)


Probe:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% increase to scan strength of probes
+20% increase to projectile weapon falloff
Role Bonus:
25% bonus to Codebreaker, Analyzer and Salvager cycle time
Slot layout: 4 H (+2), 3 M (+1), 2 L , 3 turret (+1)
Fittings: 30 PWG (+10), 240 CPU (+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 300(+105) / 300(+26) / 200(-74)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 235 (+78.75)/ 130s (+12.8s)/ 1.8 (+0.47)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 360 (+26) / 3.58 / 1123000 / 3.76s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5(-1) / 10
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 32.5km / 465 / 4
Sensor strength: 9 Ladar
Signature radius: 38 (-3)
Cargo capacity: 420 (+80)

It's possible a tracking bonus for the Probe would be more useful, as it'd be more likely to use artillery for kiting. Also, my PG numbers may not be entirely enough for some of the weapon fits, but they're a closer indication of what'd be required.

CCP Fozzie, This seems a much better idea. It would also teach new players how to kite using their racial weapons instead of the drones fit all solution. The ships also aren't mega overpowered for pvp but would still have a role as scout/prober who can take part in the combat.

Please considered this guys suggestion.

The combat bonuses Galphi has suggested are purely range orientated though.

They only offer a small amount of DPS but allow you to project that DPS. It does however give the hulls some flexibility and doesn't just fully shoehorn them into "This is a mini profesion ship and nothing else"

Yeah, it's the idea that there even are "mini" professions that I guess I'm uncomfortable with. Hacking/Archaeology are currently kind of a joke. It's just something you have to train to open a can in what is otherwise basically just another combat site. That's why trying to focus a ship on the concept just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Ideally, there would be a revamp of the concept. Sites/exploration would be its own thing, with a dedicated "science vessel" type of ship that could actually make use of the things it finds without having to go back to a station/POS to reship into something else completely.

For now, I guess making these into highsec-only exploration ships (and PvP scouts) is all that really makes sense until something like that can happen. Still, combat bonuses just don't fit. As long as they can run highsec radars/mags, and use a cloak/combat probes for PvP scouting that's about as good as it can get until a theoretical exploration revamp.

Currently, any which way you slice it, even with combat bonuses, you're still going to have to reship to run exploration sites outside of highsec, and putting combat bonuses on them doesn't help for PvP either since they'd be obsoleted by combat ships anyway, so ... for the time being they should probably just stick to highsec exploration and PvP scouting. Kinda sucks, but that's the way it goes I guess.

One big concern with the tiericide is making sure we don't obsolete the tech 2 ships along the way. In this case there's almost no danger of obsoleting Covops since they die rarely (so cost is not a big issue) and their cloaking gameplay is a large unique advantage.

Each of the races can fit two weapons plus probe launcher and salvager except for the Imicus which has a greater dependence on drones anyway. I still think if someone has chosen exploration then putting a few SP into scout drones is not wasted effort.

...
OP will be updated in a second, the exact changes are:

Magnate:
5% probe bonus changed to 7.5%
Role bonus removed
+1 lowslot
+1pg, +10cpu
+30 Structure HP

Heron:
5% probe bonus changed to 7.5%
Role bonus removed
+1 midslot
+1 pg, +10cpu
-10 Structure HP

Imicus:
5% probe bonus changed to 7.5%
Role bonus removed
+1 highslot
+1 pg, +10cpu
+35 Structure HP

Probe:
5% probe bonus changed to 7.5%
Role bonus removed
+1 highslot
+1 pg, +10cpu
+25 Structure HP

Imicus:
5% probe bonus changed to 7.5%
Role bonus removed
+1 highslot
+1 pg, +10cpu
+35 Structure HP

Now that the Imicus has 3 highs, I believe it's appropriate to give it the 2/2 turret/launcher setup the others have.

-Liang

Don't want it's potential dps to get too high.

I think putting Imicus with 20 bandwidth vs 15 for all other frigs may put this frig in dominating position, like Tengu comparing to other T3. Especially if whole concept of this new frigs designed for new people using distance tanking/drone dps techniques.

To keep things a bit balanced I'll love to see Magnate with 20 bandwidth and less drones bay capacity.

Yes, I understand it is for new people in game, who want to try different things and exploration is a sort of content to keep people in game, especially in the beginning of the game mechanics learning curve.

Therefore, if we look a bit ahead, developing exploration as mini-profession (it is not anymore, btw) can just go along the path like Imicus-Vexor-Helios-Ishtar or
Magnate-Arbitrator-Anathema-Pilgrim

Since both of them based on drones, I guess Magnate deserve 40 Band.

From my personal experience, quiet a number of people will switch to Gila at very early stage, once the get to cruiser hull, especially with some drone skills trained already, and with further development toward Tengu.

But those Amarr cruisers only have tops 50m3 bandwidth. You're talking about giving the frigate 4/5s of the DPS projection of the cruiser. Amarr's pattern on their drone boats is fly less, have more in reserve. the 15/45 first along those lines. Even the Amarr T3, the Legion, in it's Drone boat configuration is only 50m3 bandwidth, and 200m3 bay.

I think putting Imicus with 20 bandwidth vs 15 for all other frigs may put this frig in dominating position, like Tengu comparing to other T3. Especially if whole concept of this new frigs designed for new people using distance tanking/drone dps techniques.

To keep things a bit balanced I'll love to see Magnate with 20 bandwidth and less drones bay capacity.

Yes, I understand it is for new people in game, who want to try different things and exploration is a sort of content to keep people in game, especially in the beginning of the game mechanics learning curve.

Therefore, if we look a bit ahead, developing exploration as mini-profession (it is not anymore, btw) can just go along the path like Imicus-Vexor-Helios-Ishtar or
Magnate-Arbitrator-Anathema-Pilgrim

Since both of them based on drones, I guess Magnate deserve 40 Band.

From my personal experience, quiet a number of people will switch to Gila at very early stage, once the get to cruiser hull, especially with some drone skills trained already, and with further development toward Tengu.

I dunno, I'd say that 2 turrets/2 launchers + 3 drones > 1 turret + 4 drones.

-Liang

I don't like this setup at all. It seems too vanilla. They are all more or less mirror images of each other. There is no other racial ship that is this vanilla across the board except for the current racial mining frigates and they are being done away with. My suggestion would be to cater each race to a specific role of exploration. Maybe to follow racial sensor types

Amarr - Radar - Bonus to Code Breakers

Caldari - Gravimetric - Minor bonus to code breakers, analyzers and salvagers. (Jack of all trades and master of none)

Gallente - Magnetometric - Bonus to Analyzers

Minmattar - Ladar - Bonus to Salvagers (doesn't make perfect sense but it had to go somewhere)

Greetings,

I'm sure it must have been mentioned before (or not), but I'm slightly curious on why does the Imicus is the slowest, the one which has the highest signature radius and the one with the worst align time?

Thank you in advance!

Akriel

I don't know how it affects mobility but the Imicus also has the lowest mass. Does that mean it gets a more efficient use of propulsion mods than the others? Might explain it

We felt that they were good enough as cyno ships as is, and that capital projection isn't really an area of the game that needs a buff right now.

Since cyno lighting is such a big part of their use, the equalized cargo capacity is intended to make sure that each of them can at least keep up with the old Probe.

The avenues for these ships to become more useful to older players most likely will lie with hacking and archaeology.

I was just thinking out of the box... why ships need to sacrifice themselfes to open the Cyno? this makes no sense if you think about it... In real life it would make no sense at all.

Fozzie, I've been noticing about 1 in 10 posters mention that the issue lies with exploration content rather than exploration ships. After all, part of the purpose of re-designing these ships is making sure people have a reason to use them (i.e. that there's something fun to do with them).

Perhaps once you've finished the ship re-balancing, you might float the idea of adding to the abilities of Codebreaker/Analyzer/Salvager Modules. Instead of these being "click for loots" modules, there should be some more meaningful content behind their usage.

For instance, in the game Fallout, hacking a computer system involved what amounted to a quick game of hangman.

I'm not proposing that system exactly, but some, similar, system that lets the player's (not the character's) intelligence, skill, agility, and/or experience at hacking/salvaging/analyzing positively influence the outcome (honestly, the process of scanning itself could use more of this... very dull).

Other ideas, like adding more hackable/analyzable targets to the game and making more "sciencey" content, also sounded good (for hacking think: hacking PoS's and other players' ships; for analyzers: running an analyzer on an "Abandoned Mining Colony" could produce links to the wiki lore pages: think CCP Abraxas's project).

Minmattar - Ladar - Bonus to Gas Mining

The avenues for these ships to become more useful to older players most likely will lie with hacking and archaeology.

It just caught my attention cause I thought that the new fashion regarding Speed stuff was:

Minmatar > Gallente > Amarr > Caldari

Fozzie, I've been noticing about 1 in 10 posters mention that the issue lies with exploration content rather than exploration ships. After all, part of the purpose of re-designing these ships is making sure people have a reason to use them (i.e. that there's something fun to do with them).

Perhaps once you've finished the ship re-balancing, you might float the idea of adding to the abilities of Codebreaker/Analyzer/Salvager Modules. Instead of these being "click for loots" modules, there should be some more meaningful content behind their usage.

For instance, in the game Fallout, hacking a computer system involved what amounted to a quick game of hangman.

I'm not proposing that system exactly, but some, similar, system that lets the player's (not the character's) intelligence, skill, agility, and/or experience at hacking/salvaging/analyzing positively influence the outcome (honestly, the process of scanning itself could use more of this... very dull).

Other ideas, like adding more hackable/analyzable targets to the game and making more "sciencey" content, also sounded good (for hacking think: hacking PoS's and other players' ships; for analyzers: running an analyzer on an "Abandoned Mining Colony" could produce links to the wiki lore pages: think CCP Abraxas's project).

One other addition to the content area which could be nice, especially for high sec: Cosmic Signature Bookmark Marketplace. Which could be, basically, a community-built, high-sec infrastructure hub with an upgrade slot for a "Regional Cosmic Signature Database" (or some such) which allows scanners to sell the locations of the things they find to interested parties who hate scanning. It seems like such a shame to let all those signatures I pass up go to waste just because it's hard to share the information.

Hope this isn't too off-topic for you...

You could make exploration agents, you are given an acceleration gate key for a gate in a particular system, you would have to scan down the site, activate the gate run the site by using a combination of combat and analyzer or salvager or codebreaker. It would have the mission item in it and maybe some extra goodies like what a normal site would generate. Just a thought

It generally is, but drone focused ships are sometimes exceptions.

Key question - can these frigs be used to attempt lower tier low-sec profession sites?

Does CCP have any plans to give covops the ability to reliably access low/nullsec exploration sites, or should I sell my cheeta and start exploring in lolfit pve ships?

On the issue of exploration; currently it seems the explorer ships are camped into hisec in a number of ways.

Firstly we have the rats, these new exploration vessels and covops either get shot down or face serious time grinding to clear a site befor the can get the loot.

Secondly we have pirates, as you basically have to go afk you will be a prime target for pirates who see an easy kill on scan. If you want to be able to scan you need a cloak, but covops don't have weapons to take care of rats.

This means that unless covops are given a minimum of defensive weaponry the only ships that can reliably explore solo in hostile space are in fact non-science vessels (or dualboxers).

Does CCP have any plans to give covops the ability to reliably access low/nullsec exploration sites, or should I sell my cheeta and start exploring in lolfit pve ships?

....don't need covops to do exploration....

...
The Cheetah is a Probe with cloak, logic dictates the best vessel for peaceful exploration would be the T2 exploration vessel.
...

i highlighted the point where you made an assumption, not based on facts. " your logic is flawed".

The Cheetah is literally a Probe with a cloak (and better resists/slots). It has the same bonuses only better + cloak and covert cyno. It stands to reason then that since they share the same hull and bonuses it shares the same purpose, as well as gains one as a scout, it does not stand to reason that it looses its purpose because it gains another.

This thread and ideas are nice.

I want to use this oportunity to beg to the art team to consider giving the Imicus/Helios model a good hard look

I like the idea. However, one of the reasons why scanning frigates are used to light cynos is because they have much larger cargo capacity than other T1 frigates. Since CCP is planning to introduce an ORE mining frigate in winter expansion, I recommend introducing a dedicated cargo frigate along with it, with stats like this:

ORE frigate skill bonus:
5% cargo capacity per level
5% max velocity per level
(intentionally identical with bonus for T1 Industrial ships)

Base cargo capacity:
400 m^3
Drone bay: none
Slot layout: 1/2/3
Possibly a role bonus for reduced liquid ozone consumption or cynosural field duration
Nominal price: 250-300k
Other stats (CPU, PG, HP) comparable with other T1 frigates

It would also fit a decent purpose for doing lvl 1-2 courier missions for newer players and those who need to quickly raise standings.

Good morning everyone.
Finally there has been a lot of excitement about the concept of a pure science vessel. I mentioned it in the OP because I do really like the idea and like that these ships could someday serve as a stepping stone. That being said we have no hard plans for a ship of that nature so I can't promise we'll make one and if we do it will likely not be for a while. Details like whether it would be a cruiser or frigate, racial variants or a single SOE ship are all fun to brainstorm about but I can't provide any answers because we simply do not have any design planned at this time.

For technical reasons the 4th highslot on the Probe is getting bumped, so I'm moving that slot to a mid.

Technical reasons?

You got me curious now.

Too much awesome with 2 Turrets+2 Launchers?

Not enough space on the model.

Um... What about the Atron? It can fit 3 turrets, but only 2 show.

Not enough space on the model.

Isn't that the same reason why the Naglfar still has split weapon systems? How was that solved with the new launchers?

Not enough space on the model.

Magnate:
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 15(+5) / 40(+30)

So uhm 15 bandwidth but 40 bay. How does that make sense? Apart from the fact that having extra bay is just silly in most cases I get the feeling that all the stats are calculated through some formula and in this case adding more bay than twice the bandwidth (which is already silly) thus means the ship's stats suffer for it elsewhere.

Also, I don't see the use in a cycle time bonus, mostly because these ships will probably be used by newbies who'll get into cap problems because of it. make it a success chance bonus instead.

Can the model not be modified just a little? I would really love 4 highs on this thing. Pwease!!

I imagine the large drone bays in all the frigates is to allow for the new fangled salvager drones we will be getting. This way you can have two weapons + damage drones and a proble launcher instead of dropping a weapon for a salvager. The imicus gets to use a salvager though. Dunno why.

You are right however that new drones would fit in there very nicely.

We felt that they were good enough as cyno ships as is, and that capital projection isn't really an area of the game that needs a buff right now.

Since cyno lighting is such a big part of their use, the equalized cargo capacity is intended to make sure that each of them can at least keep up with the old Probe.

The avenues for these ships to become more useful to older players most likely will lie with hacking and archaeology.

Just wanted to say I hate to see the cargo bonus go away from the probe. It was one of the most interesting quirky things in the game and I loved the frigate for PI.

Does it _really_ hurt to keep it in there?

... enjoy the game, keep up the good work.