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Brock Nelson
Caldari
T2 Technologies Unlimited
SRS.
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Posted - 2011.01.06 02:45:00 -
[61]
News flash OP, you can already buy characters with skills.
Who cares if someone else already spend the time to train that character that you recently purchased?
 Originally by: Brock Nelson
OP's question is translated as: Help, I'm a female stuck in a man's body, can Incarna help?
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Tagera
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Posted - 2011.01.06 03:06:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Tagera on 06/01/2011 03:09:08
Sure...great idea... Here's exactly what would happen. You'd have a bunch of people in cap ships running around blowing each other up. With the most likeliest ones dieing out first being the ones who have no time in the game learning how to operate and how to fit said cap ship. And spending extra amounts to buy the ship. Then leaving in a huff because the bonehead gets ship blown up in their first few days of having it. Much like some of the newer players buying the big fancy carrier and titan pilots for sale on the bazaar. It would also completely kill the market since there wouldn't be enough cap ships to go around. Not unless CCP completely changed the market to a total npc seeded one. But then there would be no need for....manufacturers, researchers, miners or any of that. It'd be a big gladiator arena with nothing to do but blow each other up. Might as well make it a twitch game at that rate.
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Space Pinata
Amarr
Discount Napkin Industries
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Posted - 2011.01.06 03:13:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Brock Nelson
News flash OP, you can already buy characters with skills.
Who cares if someone else already spend the time to train that character that you recently purchased?
You can't get what you want.
I've been browsing for days and I've yet to find a character that I'd want. 
99% of character bazaar characters are named something like Herp McDerp with an intentionally ugly portrait to be 'funny'.
Then they're either poorly skilled (skipped everything to train for a role, like a carrier without cap skills )..
Or they have 100m SP and cost as much as a mothership.
So, lets say I want to buy an intermediate PVP alt. How can I?
They hardly go on sale (it's either nub miner, or 50+m SP ubercharacter), and when they do, they are named Herp Derp193318 and probably a corp thief or something.
tl;dr: Character bazaar is not the same as advancing your own character. |
Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.06 07:09:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Pocket Ace5
Everyone who is disagreeing is basically saying the point of this game is only to skill your character
Quite the opposite. It's usually the people suggesting that there needs to be ways to speed things up that has this absurd notion that the game is all about skills ù that's why they feel the need to speed things up.
Everyone else have figured out that the point of the game is to play the game. The fact that you also accrue skill points while you do this is a rather happy coincidence, and the fact that this process is completely separated from the act of playing the game is what makes EVE rather unique. You progress in your skills while you play; you don't progress because you play.
Oh, and btw. You might actually want to read what people write when making claims about what everyone who's disagreeing is saying. Otherwise you might make some foolish statement that reveals how clueless you are about the topic at handà
Quote:
Because it would ruin the monotony of waiting months to do it?
There is no monotony to ruin unless you make it one. You're trying to solve a problem that you have created for yourself. The solution to this problem is for you to stop creating it ù not to change the game.
Ding ding ding ding.
As much as I've bumped heads with Tippia over various issues this is one place where we are in accord.
And while I have love hate relationship with the EVE skill system (love the fact that I don't have to "grind" xp hate how long some of the skill trains are) This point still stands.
Other than what ships I can fly and what T2 modules I can use the only thing that has really limited my options in this game is the time I've had to commit to it. I've got skills trained that I've barely used (if at all) because with only a couple hours a night to commit I've just not been able to fully explore those options. Hell I've been playing a year and a half and haven't even made it into a wormhole yet and have only been to null sec once.
The great thing about EVE as Tippia so rightly pointed out is that unlike other games you don't have to play to progress your character. You can pretty much do what ever the hell you want. Where as in leveling games you pretty much have to spend time grinding levels.
In my last MMO(EQ) I was an end game raider. I enjoyed that aspect of the game and pretty much detested grinding Killing the same NPC for the 15000th time just can not be fun, killing basically the same NPC with a new skin and 200x the HP than the first for the 150000000000th time can't be fun either. Yet not doing it wasn't an option if I wanted to be able to participate in the part of the game I enjoyed I had to go out and kill 15,000,000,000 NPCs to get the experience to max my level to be able to get into the new raid zones and equip any equipment that might drop in it.
In EVE if I decide I want to do some light industry or exploration while I skill up PVP skills I can do it or the reverse. If I need a quick injection of isk I can run a few missions or if I'm feeling a little blood thirsty I can go flip a can or gank a hulk, or I can go get my freak on with my wife, what ever the hell I want I can do it knowing that in 5 more days I'll have motion prediction 5 trained. and I don't have to go spend 48 real life hours shooting at moving rats to do it.
As far as the OP goes. The proposed idea is dumb because of all the reasons various people have given plus the fact that it removes a major part of building a character. The character bazaar is a different beast for a number of reasons 1 someone had to actually spend the time training them the hard way, 2 You are unlikely to find exactly the skills you want and 3 there are drawbacks such as the mentioned reason 2 and you're stuck with what ever reputation (and crappy name/portrait)that character has.
SO a resounding HELL NO.
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Rusty Waynne
Caldari
Waynne Industries
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Posted - 2011.01.06 07:13:00 -
[65]
No.
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Serge Bastana
Gallente
GWA Corp
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Posted - 2011.01.06 07:35:00 -
[66]
The OP really really does not get EVE, they make claims they do but it's blatantly obvious they have missed one the biggest aspects of the game, which has been mentioned several times in previous comments made here.
Besides the time factor being a way to keep people interested in the game, it serves another purpuse. It gives players time to learn about flying and fitting ships, tactics, the most efficient methods to achieve goals, etc. Does anyone remember the story about that idiot who got his dreadnought blown up when he tried to use it solo with possibly the worst fitting anyone had probably seen. If you scan through some of the old articles from a few years back in Eve Tribune you will find the story there.
This story illustrates perfectly what happens when people buy high SP chars from the bazaar then try to fly ships they have no clue how to fit or use effectively. The same would happen if you had people able to simply purchase millions of SP in one go, it might give those of us who appreciate the time/experience aspect a good laugh but it would also produce so many whine threads that with the rest of us getting fed up the game and quitting, that's all the forums would be in the end.
Those who want instant SP the way the OP suggests are the 'instant gratification' crowd. EVE does not cater to you the way you want, get used to it :)
------------------------------------------------
You either need a punch up the throat or a good shag.
Nobody round here is offering the second one therefore your choices are limited! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.01.06 09:13:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Skex Relbore
In my last MMO(EQ) I was an end game raider. I enjoyed that aspect of the game and pretty much detested grinding Killing the same NPC for the 15000th time just can not be fun, killing basically the same NPC with a new skin and 200x the HP than the first for the 150000000000th time can't be fun either. Yet not doing it wasn't an option if I wanted to be able to participate in the part of the game I enjoyed I had to go out and kill 15,000,000,000 NPCs to get the experience to max my level to be able to get into the new raid zones and equip any equipment that might drop in it.
àand I think similar experiences from other (completely different) games is where a lot of the confusion and frustration about the EVE skill system comes from. People assume that, just like in those games, you have to XP-grind/level up a ton to reach the end game. (And I use "you" in the general sense here, not as "you, Skex").
The problem is just that there are no XP (because SP is not the same things), there are no levels (and what level-like stuff there is does not actually work as levels), and most importantly of all: there is no endgame. "But caps/0.0 conquest/officer-fitted mission-massacre ships" I hear someone sayà No, that's not an end-game. Those are simply some players' personal goals.
The main problem with the idea of buying SP is that it assumes there is this kind of other-game:ly end-game and that you need to get there to have fun, when the reality all there is are those personal goals you set for yourself. Buying SP would mean that you rob yourself of a large section of those goals. So not only does the game offer no objective end-game ù you've most likely also removed your personal, subjective end-goal. What goals remain are those that are not contingent on skills, but guess what: they are, unsurprisingly, not contingent on skills, so you would have been able to pursue them regardless.
If people find a way to enjoy the journey, then EVE will make them bitter in very short order, because they will soon discover that the game offers them absolutely nothing at the end of that journey ù the reward for all that misery they felt is nil. Adding mechanisms that let people skip the journey means that all they're doing is skipping the fun part and throwing themselves head-long into quitting the game.
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
Terianna Eri
Senex Legio
Get Off My Lawn
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Posted - 2011.01.06 09:14:00 -
[68]
sage
C--
0/10
etc
________________
Originally by: CCP Incognito
PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
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Wiki Leaks
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Posted - 2011.01.06 09:14:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Ranka Mei
Originally by: Wiki Leaks
Originally by: Serpents smile
You don't *get* EVE.
Standard unquantifiable answer. The simple fact remains, nobody knows a good reason why not to sell skills directly, they always end up at this common back stop excuse.
Many people will turn up and claim to know a good reason, then spout out their "good" reason, only for it to have no basis in reality, the legion of secret millionaires who are going to flood eve with supertitan pilots being their very favourite.
Simply though, they have no idea, but they do know they fear change.
There are many reasons why the proposal is a VERY bad idea. Most of those reasons -- despite your stubborn unwillingness to hear them -- have already been mentioned; lilke:
Originally by: Joe SMASH
Eve is a game of time vs reward. Remove the time, there is no point in playing as the reward has no value.
There's many other reasons, like gross unbalance; but removing the time factor simply utterly destroys EVE (in the sense that it would simply be an entirely different game from then on out; and one which would, no doubt, soon die thereafter).
That's not a reason. That's a supposition based on unquantified fear. Just like all the other "reasons" that have been put forward.
It's ok though. Hiding behind fear while shouting "TROLL!!!!" is a pretty safe bet for the meek and the weak.
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Terianna Eri
Senex Legio
Get Off My Lawn
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Posted - 2011.01.06 09:17:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Wiki Leaks
drivel
you realize that plugging your ears and saying "no thats not a reason" doesn't actually make it so, right?
________________
Originally by: CCP Incognito
PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
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Wiki Leaks
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Posted - 2011.01.06 09:20:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Terianna Eri
Originally by: Wiki Leaks
drivel
you realize that plugging your ears and saying "no thats not a reason" doesn't actually make it so, right?
No more than calling something a reason when it isn't makes it into a reason.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.01.06 09:24:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Wiki Leaks
That's not a reason. That's a supposition based on unquantified fear. Just like all the other "reasons" that have been put forward.
Incorrect.
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
Wiki Leaks
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Posted - 2011.01.06 09:25:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Wiki Leaks
That's not a reason. That's a supposition based on unquantified fear. Just like all the other "reasons" that have been put forward.
Incorrect.
k.
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Wiki Leaks
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Posted - 2011.01.06 09:35:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Serge Bastana
The OP really really does not get EVE, they make claims they do but it's blatantly obvious they have missed one the biggest aspects of the game, which has been mentioned several times in previous comments made here.
But what if the OP really does get Eve though? What if they do get it, and they just don't fear changing it? Perhaps because they don't perceive in protectionist terms?
What if it is you that doesn't "get Eve"?
What if somebody asked you to define what "getting Eve" is? What would you do then?
You'd start a thread that would descend into 30 people giving 40 opinions, none of which would have any more validity than any other except for the number of +1's and QFT's a particularly followed bittervet attracts. It still wouldn't define what "getting Eve" is because "getting Eve" is entirely the choice of the individual. I get Eve. I just don't get Eve the same way you're ever going to get Eve.
Originally by: Serge Bastana
Besides the time factor being a way to keep people interested in the game, it serves another purpuse. It gives players time to learn about flying and fitting ships, tactics, the most efficient methods to achieve goals, etc.
Let's pretend this is true. Would it not be better therefore to allow people to fly better ships once they had correctly fitted and flown a lesser ship? Thus meaning you don't have to wait based on somebody else's poor learning speed?
Originally by: Serge Bastana
Does anyone remember the story about that idiot who got his dreadnought blown up when he tried to use it solo with possibly the worst fitting anyone had probably seen. If you scan through some of the old articles from a few years back in Eve Tribune you will find the story there.
Are we now advocating treating everybody as equally stupid based on the misadventures of one particularly gifted individual?
Originally by: Serge Bastana
This story illustrates perfectly what happens when people buy high SP chars from the bazaar then try to fly ships they have no clue how to fit or use effectively.
Ok, and what exactly does it illustrate? The End Of Eve? Nope. Some lolz? Yes. And what else?
That's right. Nothing else.
Originally by: Serge Bastana
The same would happen if you had people able to simply purchase millions of SP in one go, it might give those of us who appreciate the time/experience aspect a good laugh but it would also produce so many whine threads that with the rest of us getting fed up the game and quitting, that's all the forums would be in the end.
That's right, the same would happen. Nothing, except more lolz.
Originally by: Serge Bastana
Those who want instant SP the way the OP suggests are the 'instant gratification' crowd. EVE does not cater to you the way you want, get used to it :)
Not to put too finer point on it, Eve evolves. Get used to it.
Maybe you just don't "get Eve"?
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Bryg Philomena
Don't Taze Me Bro
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Posted - 2011.01.06 09:39:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Wiki Leaks
Originally by: Serpents smile
You don't *get* EVE.
Standard unquantifiable answer. The simple fact remains, nobody knows a good reason why not to sell skills directly, they always end up at this common back stop excuse.
Many people will turn up and claim to know a good reason, then spout out their "good" reason, only for it to have no basis in reality, the legion of secret millionaires who are going to flood eve with supertitan pilots being their very favourite.
Simply though, they have no idea, but they do know they fear change.
Because I am rich in game and can get anything I want. I like the time it takes to get things though.
And wtf are you talking about supercap pilots? Did you NOT see the increase demand for titan/sc after the learning refund? No? Probably because you aren't involved in that, n00b. Stop whining. Buying skills is ******ed.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Am I reading this correctly? You claim you have a bug that undresses female avatars???
Your signature |
Wiki Leaks
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Posted - 2011.01.06 09:43:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Wiki Leaks on 06/01/2011 09:44:10
Originally by: Bryg Philomena
Originally by: Wiki Leaks
Originally by: Serpents smile
You don't *get* EVE.
Standard unquantifiable answer. The simple fact remains, nobody knows a good reason why not to sell skills directly, they always end up at this common back stop excuse.
Many people will turn up and claim to know a good reason, then spout out their "good" reason, only for it to have no basis in reality, the legion of secret millionaires who are going to flood eve with supertitan pilots being their very favourite.
Simply though, they have no idea, but they do know they fear change.
Because I am rich in game and can get anything I want. I like the time it takes to get things though.
And wtf are you talking about supercap pilots? Did you NOT see the increase demand for titan/sc after the learning refund? No? Probably because you aren't involved in that, n00b. Stop whining. Buying skills is ******ed.
You said "n00b" and "stop whining". I like that you said those things. You also made an assertion. I like that you made an assertion. Super stuff.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.01.06 09:44:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Wiki Leaks
k.
àand more to the point, there are actually no reason to do what the OP suggests.
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
Wiki Leaks
|
Posted - 2011.01.06 09:52:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Wiki Leaks
k.
àand more to the point, there are actually no reason to do what the OP suggests.
Don't let that get out. I prefer the baying mob to keep repeat shouting that which makes no sense.
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Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2011.01.06 10:13:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Lady Spank
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
OMG, Jenny Spitfire is back!
It hasn't been the original owner for years.
I know, this is Jenny mk 4 or something. 
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Norian Lonark
Gallente
Black Thorne Corporation
Black Thorne Alliance
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Posted - 2011.01.06 11:00:00 -
[80]
quote]
I don`t like this way of thinking. Waiting for skills has nothing to do with "instant gratification" or whatever, it is simply way to collect money from you. If you get overtly gratified over getting another notch in your skill board, well lets just say you are probably very easily amused. Do not rationalize your behaviour, most humans tend to go for gathering and feeling good about it... And of course marketing uses this to their advantage. But trying to attribute something positive to yourself over willingness to be Pavlov`s dog or donkey after a dangling carrot is absolutely hilarious.
With this way of thinking why have skills at all why not just give everyone everything to begin with?
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2011.01.06 11:02:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Destination SkillQueue on 06/01/2011 11:02:57
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
I really love and adore this idea. I haven't had much time taking care of eve because of other real life commitments. It is quite hectic in real life working from 0730 to 2230 sometimes.
Make it happen. 
Oh Jenny, Blane Xero is going to be so happy to hear you have returned to grace us with your presense on the forums again. He always gets so excited when someone happens to even mention your name.
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Cyaxares II
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Posted - 2011.01.06 11:09:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Norian Lonark
With this way of thinking why have skills at all why not just give everyone everything to begin with?
Why give away stuff for free when you can make people pay for it?
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Terion Fierceglade
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Posted - 2011.01.06 11:23:00 -
[83]
I'm still very new to this game but I think it's an awful idea. If I had the opportunity to buy all the skills I wanted in a flash what would be the point in having them?
You don't get better at the game just because your character has everything it needs to be "the best".
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Arianne Stone
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Posted - 2011.01.06 11:26:00 -
[84]
I have a very new character, it is frustrating sometimes getting your character skilled up but buying those skills would be cheating. Although I'm not directly doing anything to level up my skills, every minute I spend playing eve improves my knowledge and ability so that I can use my skills more effectively. I don't need the artificial boost of being a high skilled character right now, I have pride and I'm stubborn I'll get the skills by myself.
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Xen0nn
Amarr
UK Corp
-Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2011.01.06 11:33:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Xen0nn on 06/01/2011 11:35:44
Spend some time on Sisi and you'll find out, exactly why it's a bad idea.
On the other hand, it will provide some juici failfit KM's.. 
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JustDelivery
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Posted - 2011.01.06 12:07:00 -
[86]
buying SP???? no, that would make the game unfair and better for the one who has most money...
if you want that GO PLAY WOW thats what they pride them self on
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Gecko O'Bac
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2011.01.06 12:44:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Skex Relbore
In my last MMO(EQ) I was an end game raider. I enjoyed that aspect of the game and pretty much detested grinding Killing the same NPC for the 15000th time just can not be fun, killing basically the same NPC with a new skin and 200x the HP than the first for the 150000000000th time can't be fun either. Yet not doing it wasn't an option if I wanted to be able to participate in the part of the game I enjoyed I had to go out and kill 15,000,000,000 NPCs to get the experience to max my level to be able to get into the new raid zones and equip any equipment that might drop in it.
àand I think similar experiences from other (completely different) games is where a lot of the confusion and frustration about the EVE skill system comes from. People assume that, just like in those games, you have to XP-grind/level up a ton to reach the end game. (And I use "you" in the general sense here, not as "you, Skex").
The problem is just that there are no XP (because SP is not the same things), there are no levels (and what level-like stuff there is does not actually work as levels), and most importantly of all: there is no endgame. "But caps/0.0 conquest/officer-fitted mission-massacre ships" I hear someone sayà No, that's not an end-game. Those are simply some players' personal goals.
The main problem with the idea of buying SP is that it assumes there is this kind of other-game:ly end-game and that you need to get there to have fun, when the reality all there is are those personal goals you set for yourself. Buying SP would mean that you rob yourself of a large section of those goals. So not only does the game offer no objective end-game ù you've most likely also removed your personal, subjective end-goal. What goals remain are those that are not contingent on skills, but guess what: they are, unsurprisingly, not contingent on skills, so you would have been able to pursue them regardless.
If people find a way to enjoy the journey, then EVE will make them bitter in very short order, because they will soon discover that the game offers them absolutely nothing at the end of that journey ù the reward for all that misery they felt is nil. Adding mechanisms that let people skip the journey means that all they're doing is skipping the fun part and throwing themselves head-long into quitting the game.
Yeah... You see... It's a common problem with sandboxes... It's kinda the "Blank sheet syndrome" of gaming... Put a certain kind of gamer in a sandbox and he will dig to the bottom just to find there's no bottom and whine that it is so, while other gamers in the same time are building vast metropolitan complexes or vast underground dwarf-like cave systems. (Man I've been playing too much minecraft lately lol).
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Luminos
Durid is 4 Fite
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Posted - 2011.01.06 14:07:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Skex Relbore
The great thing about EVE as Tippia so rightly pointed out is that unlike other games you don't have to play to progress your character.
... (30 seconds later) ...
As far as the OP goes. The proposed idea is dumb because of all the reasons various people have given plus the fact that it removes a major part of building a character. The character bazaar is a different beast for a number of reasons 1 someone had to actually spend the time training them the hard way
The goggles, they do nothing. The contradiction still burns my eyes like the claws of a thousand rabid weasels.
Will somebody please explain to me what's so hard about not playing to skill up?
______
I feel as though I could do anything. For example, stab this cheese knife into the Self-Taught Man's eye. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
|
Posted - 2011.01.06 14:18:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Luminos
Will somebody please explain to me what's so hard about not playing to skill up?
Nothing. When he says "the hard way" he simply means waiting until the skills have simmered to perfection, rather than having them nukezapped into tastelessness in 3 minutes by paying much more for the TV dinner version.
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Green-Core
The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2011.01.06 14:53:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Luminos
Will somebody please explain to me what's so hard about not playing to skill up?
Nothing. When he says "the hard way" he simply means waiting until the skills have simmered to perfection, rather than having them nukezapped into tastelessness in 3 minutes by paying much more for the TV dinner version.
You owe me a cup of coffee, a new keyboard, and a white silk blouse.
But that was some funny ****, so it was worth the trip to the cleaners.
--Vel
I'm more of a care-badger. |
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