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Update EVE: Purchasable skills

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Pocket Ace5	Posted - 2011.01.05 15:01:00 - [1] It's about time we are able to purchase our skills directly and I'll lay out my reasons here. A subscription costs 15$ a month. Skill training time is tied to time. With a level V skill at the very least taking 5 days for that 30 days. That means it costs 6 dollars. Obviously there are some that cost the full 30 or more but this is just an example of how $ are already tied to skills. In the character bazaar. The cost used to be ~250m for every 1b skill points. It's slightly distorted now but I won't go into that. A plex costs 15$ and is worth ~340m ISK which fluctuates obviously. But that translates roughly into about 50$ for an ok starter character. The more you spend the more you get obviously. With real $ already being tied so closely with skill points why can't we simply buy PLEX via the game already available, convert them to PLEX credit and use it to boost out skills. In game now there is a method where you can 'reverse redeem' meaning you can buy plex with ISK and then reverse redeem it and have 2 plex on your account. This is mainly used for character transfers as it stands now. So people would still be able to grind ISK to boost their skill points and it would just be people with real $ able to do it. So it would be fair and it would make more sense then the clumsy way it ALREADY happens now.
Wiki Leaks	Posted - 2011.01.05 15:03:00 - [2] Originally by: Pocket Ace5 It's about time we are able to purchase our skills directly and I'll lay out my reasons here. I don't care about your reasons. I already agree.
BellaDonna Nyghtshade	Posted - 2011.01.05 15:07:00 - [3] Originally by: Pocket Ace5 .........it ALREADY happens now. If it already happens now, WTF are you whining about. Just do it the way "it ALREADY happens now".
Amateratsu Caldari The Pegasus Project	Posted - 2011.01.05 15:39:00 - [4] Buying skills would destroy 1 of the major concepts that helps make eve online the great game it is. If you could buy all the skills you need to do whatever you want ingame, the game would become boring and pointless very quickly. there would be nothing left to work or strive for. this idea has been suggested and rejected many times and will hopefully never happen. the amount of emo rage quitting would drawf anything we've seen ingame to date. I have to give this idea a big fat NO. á
Joe SMASH You Got A Purty Mouth	Posted - 2011.01.05 15:43:00 - [5] Complete, 100%, without-a-question NO. Eve is a game of time vs reward. Remove the time, there is no point in playing as the reward has no value. ----------------------------------- Originally by: Kali Zero Warp core stabilizers are like condoms. Nice and safe, but they make it a little less fun for everyone involved.
Myxx Risen Angels	Posted - 2011.01.05 15:43:00 - [6] OP: STFU. It wont happen, take a look at the microtransactions threadnaught. -- Originally by: CCP Explorer (and if you guys would also stop using Drakes it would be really appreciated, kthxbye).
Ur235 Aliastra	Posted - 2011.01.05 15:53:00 - [7] Why the hell would you want to do that you would no longer have to work for anything and the real benefactors would be those people who have lots of money like the ones buying GTC all the time And then the poor sutdents like me who has played eve since 2004 would be overtaken by rich fckers who have put nowhere near as much effort into the game as I have but have rich parents. Basically I would quit straight away and im pretty sure most of the other oldschool players would to and sooner or later eve would be dead STUPID IDEA seriously wtf no more ******ed ideas like these please for the love of god stop crying and keep training
Serpents smile	Posted - 2011.01.05 15:53:00 - [8] Lol, gdiaf OP. You don't get EVE. Get your flatulent ass back to wow. Bye.
Wiki Leaks	Posted - 2011.01.05 16:13:00 - [9] Originally by: Serpents smile You don't get EVE. Standard unquantifiable answer. The simple fact remains, nobody knows a good reason why not to sell skills directly, they always end up at this common back stop excuse. Many people will turn up and claim to know a good reason, then spout out their "good" reason, only for it to have no basis in reality, the legion of secret millionaires who are going to flood eve with supertitan pilots being their very favourite. Simply though, they have no idea, but they do know they fear change.
Reign Down Minmatar X-ORE	Posted - 2011.01.05 16:18:00 - [10] I hope this never ever happens to EVE...would ruin it completely. ______________________________________________________

Isaac Apylon As Far As The eYe can see Chained Reactions	Posted - 2011.01.05 16:23:00 - [11] Originally by: Wiki Leaks Originally by: Serpents smile You don't get EVE. Standard unquantifiable answer. The simple fact remains, nobody knows a good reason why not to sell skills directly Because it will murderize Eve. Sell skills, and the game dies shortly after. Serpents is right, if you don't understand why, you probably never will (your obstinate attitude reinforces that idea). Now that a slightly legitimate response has been offered: 0/10. Pretty terrible try, OP. http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/
Joe SMASH You Got A Purty Mouth	Posted - 2011.01.05 16:23:00 - [12] Originally by: Wiki Leaks Originally by: Serpents smile You don't get EVE. Standard unquantifiable answer. The simple fact remains, nobody knows a good reason why not to sell skills directly, they always end up at this common back stop excuse. Many people will turn up and claim to know a good reason, then spout out their "good" reason, only for it to have no basis in reality, the legion of secret millionaires who are going to flood eve with supertitan pilots being their very favourite. Simply though, they have no idea, but they do know they fear change. Actually plenty of reasons have been given, but you only singled out the one that supported your statement the most. Here is the best reason for not selling that I can think of: Eve does not have levels. It is not WoW where you level to 80 (or whatever it is now) and get the best gear. Eve is all about time spent. Time is Eve's 'levels'. Time is the only thing we have in Eve that can be considered "Experience Points". If you remove EXP from WoW and just let people purchase a max-level toon with the best gear, then what is the point in the game? There would be nothing more to strive for. Same thing would happen in Eve. If you could buy SP with PLEX or some other method, then what is the point in playing? If you are playing Eve for the sole purpose of getting into a Titan, then let me assure you that you are playing for all the wrong reasons. Eve has a natural progression of pilots. Start with tackle, progress to damage dealing, progress to capitals, etc. (All optional of course.) Allow people to buy their way past progression points removes the balance of the game and would probably have far reaching economic impacts in game as well. ----------------------------------- Originally by: Kali Zero Warp core stabilizers are like condoms. Nice and safe, but they make it a little less fun for everyone involved.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.01.05 16:28:00 - [13] Edited by: Tippia on 05/01/2011 16:30:15 Originally by: Wiki Leaks The simple fact remains, nobody knows a good reason why not to sell skills directly False. There are plenty of good reasons, but the gimenow-crowd would like this not to be the case, so they simply turn a deaf ear to it so they can keep saying that there are no good reasons. The reason is very simple: it would remove the balance of ability progression and it would reduce the staying/holding-power of the game. It would also make skills entirely pointless, which would make the change itself pointless. Oh, and btwà Originally by: Pocket Ace5 In the character bazaar [à] it ALREADY happens now. No, it does not. There is a very significant difference between what you're suggesting and what we have right now. Can you spot it? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Gecko O'Bac Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.01.05 16:35:00 - [14] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 05/01/2011 16:30:15 Originally by: Wiki Leaks The simple fact remains, nobody knows a good reason why not to sell skills directly False. There are plenty of good reasons, but the gimenow-crowd would like this not to be the case, so they simply turn a deaf ear to it so they can keep saying that there are no good reasons. The reason is very simple: it would remove the balance of ability progression and it would reduce the staying/holding-power of the game. It would also make skills entirely pointless, which would make the change itself pointless. Oh, and btwà Originally by: Pocket Ace5 In the character bazaar [à] it ALREADY happens now. No, it does not. There is a very significant difference between what you're suggesting and what we have right now. Can you spot it? Memememe! It's actually 2 reasons: 1) The total SP pool of all characters is unchanged by bazar trading and, 2) The SP pool you can acquire from the bazar is limited in size by being AT MOST as much as the highest SP pool in the game, you can't increase it in any way other than... Paying and playing. That said, I vote for troll OP.
Antihrist Pripravnik 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.01.05 16:39:00 - [15] Why does every new forum troll have to go through the same "ideas" over and over again? Be original.
Wacktopia Dark Side Of The Womb	Posted - 2011.01.05 16:42:00 - [16] Edited by: Wacktopia on 05/01/2011 16:42:35 This is the reason why I don't come into GD much any more: lots of 'suggestion' threads that should be in the 'Features and Ideas' section but are here because OP thinks their idea is so ground-breaking that it simply must be in GD. If you could buy skills the game would become broken and boring. There would be no anticipation and planning of fits as you progress through your skill training. I think you are asking the question because you like the idea of a 1 month old char with 100mil SP so you can bait people who look at char age and estimate SP. If you really want high skills instantly then go take a look at the chars for sale for ISK... /nosupport
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2011.01.05 16:44:00 - [17] Quote: secret millionaires Ah, I see one of our old school trolls has reappeared. I would not have caught it, but you love to beat that meme to death. I personally am not a big fan of letting people drop a couple of hundred bucks to have their current character upskilled to a fully skilled Titan pilot. We have too many of them in game now. Perhaps "you" gain your enjoyment from a game by bragging that you have the highest level this, and the highest possible skills in that, but most of us only enjoy making those statements if they have actually earned the right to brag... not because they bought them. Now I realize that in actuality you are attempting to be clever... and that in truth this is a stealth whine about being able to buy highly skilled characters in the Bazaar (for those of you who haven't picked up on it yet). I'm not going to argue all that much with you about that as I personally am not a big fan of buying/selling characters. Obviously, buying a high level character is less damaging to the game than the ability to insta-create as many high level characters as you wish to fund... but you already knew that. Anyway, carry on. Just keep in mind you're not quite as clever as you think you are. ===== My mission? To kill the enemy and break their toys SIR!!!.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.01.05 16:45:00 - [18] Originally by: Gecko O'Bac Memememe! It's actually 2 reasons: 1) The total SP pool of all characters is unchanged by bazar trading and, 2) The SP pool you can acquire from the bazar is limited in size by being AT MOST as much as the highest SP pool in the game, you can't increase it in any way other than... Paying and playing. <cookie /> ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2011.01.05 16:53:00 - [19] Originally by: Antihrist Pripravnik Why does every new forum troll have to go through the same "ideas" over and over again? Be original. Because sooner or later some bean counter from the marketing department with no idea about how the game actually works or why it's successful will stumble across one of the threads and think "wow, that's a cool way to get new people involved" Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Zhim'Fufu	Posted - 2011.01.05 17:05:00 - [20] Originally by: Wiki Leaks The simple fact remains, nobody knows a good reason why not to sell skills directly Yes because we need even more supercap alts only this time they can simply redirect their rat botting income to make them instantly. So no.

Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2011.01.05 17:09:00 - [21] Originally by: Zhim'Fufu Originally by: Wiki Leaks The simple fact remains, nobody knows a good reason why not to sell skills directly Yes because we need even more supercap alts only this time they can simply redirect their rat botting income to make them instantly. So no. Again, he really doesn't want purchasable skills. This thread is just a stealth whine about being able to buy characters in the Bazaar. In his mind it's just as bad to be able to buy a highly skilled character there, so why not make your point by exaggerating it slightly and pretend to be in favor of going one step further... to simply allow people to buy the skills they wish for their own characters. I agree, he's not very good at this sort of thing... ===== My mission? To kill the enemy and break their toys SIR!!!.
Pocket Ace5	Posted - 2011.01.05 17:13:00 - [22] Edited by: Pocket Ace5 on 05/01/2011 17:15:00 Edited by: Pocket Ace5 on 05/01/2011 17:13:42 Everyone who is disagreeing is basically saying the point of this game is only to skill your character and watch that bar go by, tick, tock, tick, tock. Even though you can buy a stock character someone hasn't played on, hasn't watched the clock ticking by, Just skilling it to sell. Basically buying plex in a shockingly slow but more cost affordable way with subscription $. So you can then buy it with plex $ sell them and give it to him ISK. And we shouldn't make this whole thing simpler but just allowing people to directly build their own characters with PLEX? Because it would ruin the monotony of waiting months to do it?
Joe SMASH You Got A Purty Mouth	Posted - 2011.01.05 17:14:00 - [23] Originally by: Pocket Ace5 Edited by: Pocket Ace5 on 05/01/2011 17:13:42 Everyone who is disagreeing is basically saying the point of this game is only to skill your character and watch that bar go by, tick, tock, tick, tock. Even though you can buy a stock character someone hasn't played on, hasn't watched the clock ticking by, Just skilling it to sell. Basically buying plex in a shockingly slow but more cost affordable way with subscription $. So you can then buy it with plex $ sell them and give it to him for ISK. And we shouldn't make this whole thing simpler but just allowing people to directly build their own characters with PLEX? Because it would ruin the monotony of waiting months to do it? See post 13 and 14. ----------------------------------- Originally by: Kali Zero Warp core stabilizers are like condoms. Nice and safe, but they make it a little less fun for everyone involved.
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2011.01.05 17:20:00 - [24] Originally by: Joe SMASH Originally by: Pocket Ace5 Edited by: Pocket Ace5 on 05/01/2011 17:13:42 Everyone who is disagreeing is basically saying the point of this game is only to skill your character and watch that bar go by, tick, tock, tick, tock. Even though you can buy a stock character someone hasn't played on, hasn't watched the clock ticking by, Just skilling it to sell. Basically buying plex in a shockingly slow but more cost affordable way with subscription $. So you can then buy it with plex $ sell them and give it to him for ISK. And we shouldn't make this whole thing simpler but just allowing people to directly build their own characters with PLEX? Because it would ruin the monotony of waiting months to do it? See post 13 and 14. She saw them, but it is easier to spout that nonsense when you ignore what others actually write, make up your imaginary responses and respond only to them.
Obsidian Hawk RONA Legion	Posted - 2011.01.05 17:22:00 - [25] Dear op, If this happened, ccp's 300k + accounts would go to less than 50,000 over night. NO TO MICROTRANSACTIONS THAT CHANGE GAMEPLAY! I want to say more but this thread already made my head hurt.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.01.05 17:37:00 - [26] Originally by: Pocket Ace5 Everyone who is disagreeing is basically saying the point of this game is only to skill your character Quite the opposite. It's usually the people suggesting that there needs to be ways to speed things up that has this absurd notion that the game is all about skills ù that's why they feel the need to speed things up. Everyone else have figured out that the point of the game is to play the game. The fact that you also accrue skill points while you do this is a rather happy coincidence, and the fact that this process is completely separated from the act of playing the game is what makes EVE rather unique. You progress in your skills while you play; you don't progress because you play. Oh, and btw. You might actually want to read what people write when making claims about what everyone who's disagreeing is saying. Otherwise you might make some foolish statement that reveals how clueless you are about the topic at handà Quote: Because it would ruin the monotony of waiting months to do it? There is no monotony to ruin unless you make it one. You're trying to solve a problem that you have created for yourself. The solution to this problem is for you to stop creating it ù not to change the game.
Alpheias	Posted - 2011.01.05 17:41:00 - [27] Nonsense like this belong on this.
Spurty Caldari V0LTA	Posted - 2011.01.05 17:45:00 - [28] skills for sale go go go
Minn Finn Minn Finn School of Chinn	Posted - 2011.01.05 17:46:00 - [29] Edited by: Minn Finn on 05/01/2011 17:46:47 noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooo
bluenzo	Posted - 2011.01.05 18:34:00 - [30] Because if you buy a character on the bazar you are buying skills that have taken the time to been trained. If you could buy skillpoints you are magically creating skillpoints out of thin air with no one ever taking the time to train them. Answer: never

Rubet Gold	Posted - 2011.01.05 19:28:00 - [31] Would like to buy an AE Tractor beam and an AE Salvager with 150km range along with my 100,000,000 skill points please!! Oh, and please toss in one of those reserved 0.0 Systems with Station too!! Thanks!!
De'Veldrin Minmatar Green-Core The Obsidian Legion	Posted - 2011.01.05 19:30:00 - [32] The OP is a troll. This thread is now about why Tippia did not bring enough cookies to share with the rest of the class. --Vel I'm more of a care-badger.
Marchocias Snatch Victory	Posted - 2011.01.05 19:31:00 - [33] Edited by: Marchocias on 05/01/2011 19:32:47 I hope you don't mind me telling you to sod RIGHT off, and continue sodding off until you have learned exactly why you're wrong. Edit: It would be totally against the spirit of the game. ---- I belong to Silent Ninja (Hopefully that should cover it).
Ranka Mei Caldari	Posted - 2011.01.05 20:30:00 - [34] Originally by: Wiki Leaks Originally by: Serpents smile You don't get EVE. Standard unquantifiable answer. The simple fact remains, nobody knows a good reason why not to sell skills directly, they always end up at this common back stop excuse. Many people will turn up and claim to know a good reason, then spout out their "good" reason, only for it to have no basis in reality, the legion of secret millionaires who are going to flood eve with supertitan pilots being their very favourite. Simply though, they have no idea, but they do know they fear change. There are many reasons why the proposal is a VERY bad idea. Most of those reasons -- despite your stubborn unwillingness to hear them -- have already been mentioned; lilke: Originally by: Joe SMASH Eve is a game of time vs reward. Remove the time, there is no point in playing as the reward has no value. There's many other reasons, like gross unbalance; but removing the time factor simply utterly destroys EVE (in the sense that it would simply be an entirely different game from then on out; and one which would, no doubt, soon die thereafter). --
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2011.01.05 20:45:00 - [35] Originally by: De'Veldrin The OP is a troll. This thread is now about why Tippia did not bring enough cookies to share with the rest of the class. That's what I've been saying!!! Only people are getting what he is trying to accomplish a bit backwards. ===== My mission? To kill the enemy and break their toys SIR!!!.
Alhambra Rainwalker Caldari Rosa Alba Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2011.01.05 20:46:00 - [36] Basically most of the reasons here are just counter-trolling but really, the reason why CCP does not want to introduce this is... ready? So they get money as you pay your monthly subscriptions and generate more content for other players with your own gameplay. If you get invested in the game you might hang around for longer than merely aquiring the best toys game has offer and quit in disgust. Naturally this also delayed supercap character inflation, although it still happened.
000Hunter000 Gallente Missiles 'R' Us	Posted - 2011.01.05 22:25:00 - [37] NO! Now gimme ur stuffz ________________________________________________
Kelby Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.01.05 22:49:00 - [38] Edited by: Kelby on 05/01/2011 22:49:12 No thanks.
Choujinburi Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2011.01.05 22:49:00 - [39] Whenever there's a change proposed that someone doesn't like, they usually say it will kill EVE. Saying it in this thread is the only time that they'd be right. This idea is terrible.
Invictra Atreides Caldari	Posted - 2011.01.05 23:03:00 - [40] Originally by: Pocket Ace5 Edited by: Pocket Ace5 on 05/01/2011 17:15:00 Edited by: Pocket Ace5 on 05/01/2011 17:13:42 Everyone who is disagreeing is basically saying the point of this game is only to skill your character and watch that bar go by, tick, tock, tick, tock. Even though you can buy a stock character someone hasn't played on, hasn't watched the clock ticking by, Just skilling it to sell. Basically buying plex in a shockingly slow but more cost affordable way with subscription $. So you can then buy it with plex $ sell them and give it to him ISK. And we shouldn't make this whole thing simpler but just allowing people to directly build their own characters with PLEX? Because it would ruin the monotony of waiting months to do it? Well they could make it that u pay $ to reset a skill and get the SP to spend somewhere else. That way you could buy a 100m SP char and pay a ton of cash to reset skills that u don't need. This might be the only way to do it. tbh I rly hate if some rich guy comes and can buy his way up in a game. It just isn't fear!

Katsumoto Caldari Me Shoot Laser You Eye	Posted - 2011.01.05 23:14:00 - [41] Originally by: Minn Finn Edited by: Minn Finn on 05/01/2011 17:46:47 noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooo .
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2011.01.05 23:18:00 - [42] I really love and adore this idea. I haven't had much time taking care of eve because of other real life commitments. It is quite hectic in real life working from 0730 to 2230 sometimes. Make it happen. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Go vote! Put voice for silent majority. LOVE PVP, HATE grief
Norian Lonark Gallente Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance	Posted - 2011.01.05 23:26:00 - [43] What is it that in this day and age everyone wants everything right away without doing anything to get it. There are so many games out there where you can reach max level or whatever straight away and what happens people get bored very fast. Take a look at Star Trek. I have been playing Eve longer than any other MMO I have ever played... simply because its not instant gratification, you cant do everything straight away your constantly learning and the game stays fresh and challenging because of it. This should never happen and if it did I would most certainly quit.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2011.01.05 23:29:00 - [44] That is because some of us don't have time but would really love to short circuit the process and enjoy the game. Having said that, some of us, maybe specifically, I, don't mind injecting liquidity into my character to get things sorted fast. It doesn't matter how one gets there, what matters is one gets there. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Go vote! Put voice for silent majority. LOVE PVP, HATE grief
Alhambra Rainwalker Caldari Rosa Alba Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2011.01.05 23:32:00 - [45] Edited by: Alhambra Rainwalker on 05/01/2011 23:35:21 Originally by: Norian Lonark What is it that in this day and age everyone wants everything right away without doing anything to get it. There are so many games out there where you can reach max level or whatever straight away and what happens people get bored very fast. Take a look at Star Trek. I have been playing Eve longer than any other MMO I have ever played... simply because its not instant gratification, you cant do everything straight away your constantly learning and the game stays fresh and challenging because of it. This should never happen and if it did I would most certainly quit. I don`t like this way of thinking. Waiting for skills has nothing to do with "instant gratification" or whatever, it is simply way to collect money from you. If you get overtly gratified over getting another notch in your skill board, well lets just say you are probably very easily amused. Do not rationalize your behaviour, most humans tend to go for gathering and feeling good about it... And of course marketing uses this to their advantage. But trying to attribute something positive to yourself over willingness to be Pavlov`s dog or donkey after a dangling carrot is absolutely hilarious.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2011.01.05 23:38:00 - [46] Alhambra Rainwalker, that is spot on and straight to the point. The time it takes to procure X points is Y months and cost Z monetary value. If we buy skill points through liquidity injection, we spend Z monetary value to speed up Y months and accrue X points. Essentially, it works out to be the same. One is masked behind the scene, the other shows it up front. Being up front is good. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Go vote! Put voice for silent majority. LOVE PVP, HATE grief
Acrior	Posted - 2011.01.05 23:47:00 - [47] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Alhambra Rainwalker, that is spot on and straight to the point. The time it takes to procure X points is Y months and cost Z monetary value. If we buy skill points through liquidity injection, we spend Z monetary value to speed up Y months and accrue X points. Essentially, it works out to be the same. One is masked behind the scene, the other shows it up front. Being up front is good. buying sp adds sp the total pool buying characters keeps the pool the same buying gametime keeps the pool the same one of the three is not like the others.
Afrid Zaror	Posted - 2011.01.05 23:51:00 - [48] I agree. I say take it a step further, actually, and completely bastardize one of the core concepts of the game, and any MMO, which is time spent playing = the better your character gets. Just do away with the training queue, and microtransaction all skills. Remove all skill levels, and just have the skill, for example, Battleship, which is a skill with no levels. You train it, and get access to all your race's Battleships with all 25% bonuses. $1.99 per skill. Thet way we can all just spend a couple hundred dollars, be epic at everything without having to spend any time, buy PLEX then sell in game, buy all T2/3/Faction ships and modules, and get right to the bang bang. I don't see how this would take away any of the fun in the game whatsoever.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2011.01.05 23:52:00 - [49] Acrior, yes you are right when everything else is the same. But the game moves with time. With time, everything else expands. So, at the end of the day it is all about who will get there. No point putting artificial blocks to prevent other users getting there. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Go vote! Put voice for silent majority. LOVE PVP, HATE grief
Mashie Saldana Minmatar Veto Corp	Posted - 2011.01.06 00:08:00 - [50] OMG, Jenny Spitfire is back!

Jimer Lins Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.01.06 00:33:00 - [51] Characters and their SP are essentially a shadow economy in EVE. You can't simply add a massive amount of SP overnight without grave consequences any more than you could add multiple orders of magnitude more ISK overnight without similarly grave consequences. Allowing people to bloom the SP pool by buying skillpoints would effectively destroy the game as SP "inflation" made time invested effectively meaningless, giving no sense of continuity or a reason to work toward a goal. Additionally, the overall real skill of people playing would plummet as players would treat EVE as a casual game instead of actually playing it. It would have secondary effects of ISK inflation too as people would no longer have to work at getting their characters into a position to generate a lot of ISK, but simply buy the skills and jump in. The game would be effectively without meaning and the servers would shut down within a year, tops. Blog and Podcast - Twitter: DeclareWar
Sayatti	Posted - 2011.01.06 00:47:00 - [52] Originally by: Pocket Ace5 It's about time we are able to purchase our skills directly and I'll lay out my reasons here. A subscription costs 15$ a month. Skill training time is tied to time. With a level V skill at the very least taking 5 days for that 30 days. That means it costs 6 dollars. Obviously there are some that cost the full 30 or more but this is just an example of how $ are already tied to skills. In the character bazaar. The cost used to be ~250m for every 1b skill points. It's slightly distorted now but I won't go into that. A plex costs 15$ and is worth ~340m ISK which fluctuates obviously. But that translates roughly into about 50$ for an ok starter character. The more you spend the more you get obviously. With real $ already being tied so closely with skill points why can't we simply buy PLEX via the game already available, convert them to PLEX credit and use it to boost out skills. In game now there is a method where you can 'reverse redeem' meaning you can buy plex with ISK and then reverse redeem it and have 2 plex on your account. This is mainly used for character transfers as it stands now. So people would still be able to grind ISK to boost their skill points and it would just be people with real $ able to do it. So it would be fair and it would make more sense then the clumsy way it ALREADY happens now. You should have started playing in 2005, that would have solved your SP problem...
Acrior	Posted - 2011.01.06 00:51:00 - [53] Originally by: Afrid Zaror I agree. I say take it a step further, actually, and completely bastardize one of the core concepts of the game, and any MMO, which is time spent playing = the better your character gets. Just do away with the training queue, and microtransaction all skills. Remove all skill levels, and just have the skill, for example, Battleship, which is a skill with no levels. You train it, and get access to all your race's Battleships with all 25% bonuses. $1.99 per skill. Thet way we can all just spend a couple hundred dollars, be epic at everything without having to spend any time, buy PLEX then sell in game, buy all T2/3/Faction ships and modules, and get right to the bang bang. I don't see how this would take away any of the fun in the game whatsoever. having this but without the buying thing, just all maxed skills on a different server would actually be kind of fun
Lady Spank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2011.01.06 01:00:00 - [54] Originally by: Mashie Saldana OMG, Jenny Spitfire is back! It hasn't been the original owner for years.
Trina Selena Gallente Equitas Mortalitas	Posted - 2011.01.06 01:28:00 - [55] Originally by: Katsumoto Originally by: Minn Finn Edited by: Minn Finn on 05/01/2011 17:46:47 noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooo oh did I mention how much I love you? :D
Space Pinata Amarr Discount Napkin Industries	Posted - 2011.01.06 01:43:00 - [56] The replies in this thread make me giggle. People think EVE is about SP, and SP is the biggest reward, and best yet, SP is fun. Yeah I love waiting to fly a ship, flying ships is the worst part of EVE, but watching the skill bar.. well, that's why I subscribe. @OP: Don't post anything fun. EVE has a strict no fun allowed rule and you will be flamed if you propose anything fun. Instead propose something that ruins an aspect of the game and add a demon smiley, then you will get support.
Luminos Durid is 4 Fite	Posted - 2011.01.06 01:48:00 - [57] Originally by: Space Pinata Wisdom. Beat me to it. ______ I feel as though I could do anything. For example, stab this cheese knife into the Self-Taught Man's eye.
Selinate Amarr Wardens of the Void	Posted - 2011.01.06 02:07:00 - [58] I would like a way to get skills quicker than the way it is now in Eve, simply because I think 21 days for cruiser 5 is a bit much and so on, but this is a bad way to do it. This would ruin Eve. honestly, I think this is a troll attempt. Good job, seems like you got a lot of attention.
Your Client	Posted - 2011.01.06 02:19:00 - [59] Originally by: Spurty skills for sale go go go You sir, are wrong. When you buy a character, you are buying the time invested by a player to train a character up a certain skill level. Those characters only have skill points because someone was willing to put time and effort into creating the character.
Glyn Davish Aliastra	Posted - 2011.01.06 02:26:00 - [60] The ability to buy power in a game, whether it's in the form of an item or a skill, is almost universally a bad idea.

Brock Nelson Caldari T2 Technologies Unlimited SRS.	Posted - 2011.01.06 02:45:00 - [61] News flash OP, you can already buy characters with skills. Who cares if someone else already spend the time to train that character that you recently purchased? Originally by: Brock Nelson OP's question is translated as: Help, I'm a female stuck in a man's body, can Incarna help?
Tagera	Posted - 2011.01.06 03:06:00 - [62] Edited by: Tagera on 06/01/2011 03:09:08 Sure...great idea... Here's exactly what would happen. You'd have a bunch of people in cap ships running around blowing each other up. With the most likeliest ones dieing out first being the ones who have no time in the game learning how to operate and how to fit said cap ship. And spending extra amounts to buy the ship. Then leaving in a huff because the bonehead gets ship blown up in their first few days of having it. Much like some of the newer players buying the big fancy carrier and titan pilots for sale on the bazaar. It would also completely kill the market since there wouldn't be enough cap ships to go around. Not unless CCP completely changed the market to a total npc seeded one. But then there would be no need for....manufacturers, researchers, miners or any of that. It'd be a big gladiator arena with nothing to do but blow each other up. Might as well make it a twitch game at that rate.
Space Pinata Amarr Discount Napkin Industries	Posted - 2011.01.06 03:13:00 - [63] Originally by: Brock Nelson News flash OP, you can already buy characters with skills. Who cares if someone else already spend the time to train that character that you recently purchased? You can't get what you want. I've been browsing for days and I've yet to find a character that I'd want. 99% of character bazaar characters are named something like Herp McDerp with an intentionally ugly portrait to be 'funny'. Then they're either poorly skilled (skipped everything to train for a role, like a carrier without cap skills ).. Or they have 100m SP and cost as much as a mothership. So, lets say I want to buy an intermediate PVP alt. How can I? They hardly go on sale (it's either nub miner, or 50+m SP ubercharacter), and when they do, they are named Herp Derp193318 and probably a corp thief or something. tl;dr: Character bazaar is not the same as advancing your own character.
Skex Relbore Gallente Red Federation	Posted - 2011.01.06 07:09:00 - [64] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Pocket Ace5 Everyone who is disagreeing is basically saying the point of this game is only to skill your character Quite the opposite. It's usually the people suggesting that there needs to be ways to speed things up that has this absurd notion that the game is all about skills ù that's why they feel the need to speed things up. Everyone else have figured out that the point of the game is to play the game. The fact that you also accrue skill points while you do this is a rather happy coincidence, and the fact that this process is completely separated from the act of playing the game is what makes EVE rather unique. You progress in your skills while you play; you don't progress because you play. Oh, and btw. You might actually want to read what people write when making claims about what everyone who's disagreeing is saying. Otherwise you might make some foolish statement that reveals how clueless you are about the topic at handà Quote: Because it would ruin the monotony of waiting months to do it? There is no monotony to ruin unless you make it one. You're trying to solve a problem that you have created for yourself. The solution to this problem is for you to stop creating it ù not to change the game. Ding ding ding ding. As much as I've bumped heads with Tippia over various issues this is one place where we are in accord. And while I have love hate relationship with the EVE skill system (love the fact that I don't have to "grind" xp hate how long some of the skill trains are) This point still stands. Other than what ships I can fly and what T2 modules I can use the only thing that has really limited my options in this game is the time I've had to commit to it. I've got skills trained that I've barely used (if at all) because with only a couple hours a night to commit I've just not been able to fully explore those options. Hell I've been playing a year and a half and haven't even made it into a wormhole yet and have only been to null sec once. The great thing about EVE as Tippia so rightly pointed out is that unlike other games you don't have to play to progress your character. You can pretty much do what ever the hell you want. Where as in leveling games you pretty much have to spend time grinding levels. In my last MMO(EQ) I was an end game raider. I enjoyed that aspect of the game and pretty much detested grinding Killing the same NPC for the 15000th time just can not be fun, killing basically the same NPC with a new skin and 200x the HP than the first for the 150000000000th time can't be fun either. Yet not doing it wasn't an option if I wanted to be able to participate in the part of the game I enjoyed I had to go out and kill 15,000,000,000 NPCs to get the experience to max my level to be able to get into the new raid zones and equip any equipment that might drop in it. In EVE if I decide I want to do some light industry or exploration while I skill up PVP skills I can do it or the reverse. If I need a quick injection of isk I can run a few missions or if I'm feeling a little blood thirsty I can go flip a can or gank a hulk, or I can go get my freak on with my wife, what ever the hell I want I can do it knowing that in 5 more days I'll have motion prediction 5 trained. and I don't have to go spend 48 real life hours shooting at moving rats to do it. As far as the OP goes. The proposed idea is dumb because of all the reasons various people have given plus the fact that it removes a major part of building a character. The character bazaar is a different beast for a number of reasons 1 someone had to actually spend the time training them the hard way, 2 You are unlikely to find exactly the skills you want and 3 there are drawbacks such as the mentioned reason 2 and you're stuck with what ever reputation (and crappy name/portrait)that character has. SO a resounding HELL NO.
Rusty Waynne Caldari Waynne Industries	Posted - 2011.01.06 07:13:00 - [65] No.
Serge Bastana Gallente GWA Corp	Posted - 2011.01.06 07:35:00 - [66] The OP really really does not get EVE, they make claims they do but it's blatantly obvious they have missed one the biggest aspects of the game, which has been mentioned several times in previous comments made here. Besides the time factor being a way to keep people interested in the game, it serves another purpuse. It gives players time to learn about flying and fitting ships, tactics, the most efficient methods to achieve goals, etc. Does anyone remember the story about that idiot who got his dreadnought blown up when he tried to use it solo with possibly the worst fitting anyone had probably seen. If you scan through some of the old articles from a few years back in Eve Tribune you will find the story there. This story illustrates perfectly what happens when people buy high SP chars from the bazaar then try to fly ships they have no clue how to fit or use effectively. The same would happen if you had people able to simply purchase millions of SP in one go, it might give those of us who appreciate the time/experience aspect a good laugh but it would also produce so many whine threads that with the rest of us getting fed up the game and quitting, that's all the forums would be in the end. Those who want instant SP the way the OP suggests are the 'instant gratification' crowd. EVE does not cater to you the way you want, get used to it :) ------------------------------------------------ You either need a punch up the throat or a good shag. Nobody round here is offering the second one therefore your choices are limited!
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.01.06 09:13:00 - [67] Originally by: Skex Relbore In my last MMO(EQ) I was an end game raider. I enjoyed that aspect of the game and pretty much detested grinding Killing the same NPC for the 15000th time just can not be fun, killing basically the same NPC with a new skin and 200x the HP than the first for the 150000000000th time can't be fun either. Yet not doing it wasn't an option if I wanted to be able to participate in the part of the game I enjoyed I had to go out and kill 15,000,000,000 NPCs to get the experience to max my level to be able to get into the new raid zones and equip any equipment that might drop in it. àand I think similar experiences from other (completely different) games is where a lot of the confusion and frustration about the EVE skill system comes from. People assume that, just like in those games, you have to XP-grind/level up a ton to reach the end game. (And I use "you" in the general sense here, not as "you, Skex"). The problem is just that there are no XP (because SP is not the same things), there are no levels (and what level-like stuff there is does not actually work as levels), and most importantly of all: there is no endgame. "But caps/0.0 conquest/officer-fitted mission-massacre ships" I hear someone sayà No, that's not an end-game. Those are simply some players' personal goals. The main problem with the idea of buying SP is that it assumes there is this kind of other-game:ly end-game and that you need to get there to have fun, when the reality all there is are those personal goals you set for yourself. Buying SP would mean that you rob yourself of a large section of those goals. So not only does the game offer no objective end-game ù you've most likely also removed your personal, subjective end-goal. What goals remain are those that are not contingent on skills, but guess what: they are, unsurprisingly, not contingent on skills, so you would have been able to pursue them regardless. If people find a way to enjoy the journey, then EVE will make them bitter in very short order, because they will soon discover that the game offers them absolutely nothing at the end of that journey ù the reward for all that misery they felt is nil. Adding mechanisms that let people skip the journey means that all they're doing is skipping the fun part and throwing themselves head-long into quitting the game. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Terianna Eri Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2011.01.06 09:14:00 - [68] sage C-- 0/10 etc ________________ Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
Wiki Leaks	Posted - 2011.01.06 09:14:00 - [69] Originally by: Ranka Mei Originally by: Wiki Leaks Originally by: Serpents smile You don't get EVE. Standard unquantifiable answer. The simple fact remains, nobody knows a good reason why not to sell skills directly, they always end up at this common back stop excuse. Many people will turn up and claim to know a good reason, then spout out their "good" reason, only for it to have no basis in reality, the legion of secret millionaires who are going to flood eve with supertitan pilots being their very favourite. Simply though, they have no idea, but they do know they fear change. There are many reasons why the proposal is a VERY bad idea. Most of those reasons -- despite your stubborn unwillingness to hear them -- have already been mentioned; lilke: Originally by: Joe SMASH Eve is a game of time vs reward. Remove the time, there is no point in playing as the reward has no value. There's many other reasons, like gross unbalance; but removing the time factor simply utterly destroys EVE (in the sense that it would simply be an entirely different game from then on out; and one which would, no doubt, soon die thereafter). That's not a reason. That's a supposition based on unquantified fear. Just like all the other "reasons" that have been put forward. It's ok though. Hiding behind fear while shouting "TROLL!!!!" is a pretty safe bet for the meek and the weak.
Terianna Eri Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2011.01.06 09:17:00 - [70] Originally by: Wiki Leaks drivel you realize that plugging your ears and saying "no thats not a reason" doesn't actually make it so, right? ________________ Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)

Wiki Leaks	Posted - 2011.01.06 09:20:00 - [71] Originally by: Terianna Eri Originally by: Wiki Leaks drivel you realize that plugging your ears and saying "no thats not a reason" doesn't actually make it so, right? No more than calling something a reason when it isn't makes it into a reason.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.01.06 09:24:00 - [72] Originally by: Wiki Leaks That's not a reason. That's a supposition based on unquantified fear. Just like all the other "reasons" that have been put forward. Incorrect. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Wiki Leaks	Posted - 2011.01.06 09:25:00 - [73] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Wiki Leaks That's not a reason. That's a supposition based on unquantified fear. Just like all the other "reasons" that have been put forward. Incorrect. k.
Wiki Leaks	Posted - 2011.01.06 09:35:00 - [74] Originally by: Serge Bastana The OP really really does not get EVE, they make claims they do but it's blatantly obvious they have missed one the biggest aspects of the game, which has been mentioned several times in previous comments made here. But what if the OP really does get Eve though? What if they do get it, and they just don't fear changing it? Perhaps because they don't perceive in protectionist terms? What if it is you that doesn't "get Eve"? What if somebody asked you to define what "getting Eve" is? What would you do then? You'd start a thread that would descend into 30 people giving 40 opinions, none of which would have any more validity than any other except for the number of +1's and QFT's a particularly followed bittervet attracts. It still wouldn't define what "getting Eve" is because "getting Eve" is entirely the choice of the individual. I get Eve. I just don't get Eve the same way you're ever going to get Eve. Originally by: Serge Bastana Besides the time factor being a way to keep people interested in the game, it serves another purpuse. It gives players time to learn about flying and fitting ships, tactics, the most efficient methods to achieve goals, etc. Let's pretend this is true. Would it not be better therefore to allow people to fly better ships once they had correctly fitted and flown a lesser ship? Thus meaning you don't have to wait based on somebody else's poor learning speed? Originally by: Serge Bastana Does anyone remember the story about that idiot who got his dreadnought blown up when he tried to use it solo with possibly the worst fitting anyone had probably seen. If you scan through some of the old articles from a few years back in Eve Tribune you will find the story there. Are we now advocating treating everybody as equally stupid based on the misadventures of one particularly gifted individual? Originally by: Serge Bastana This story illustrates perfectly what happens when people buy high SP chars from the bazaar then try to fly ships they have no clue how to fit or use effectively. Ok, and what exactly does it illustrate? The End Of Eve? Nope. Some lolz? Yes. And what else? That's right. Nothing else. Originally by: Serge Bastana The same would happen if you had people able to simply purchase millions of SP in one go, it might give those of us who appreciate the time/experience aspect a good laugh but it would also produce so many whine threads that with the rest of us getting fed up the game and quitting, that's all the forums would be in the end. That's right, the same would happen. Nothing, except more lolz. Originally by: Serge Bastana Those who want instant SP the way the OP suggests are the 'instant gratification' crowd. EVE does not cater to you the way you want, get used to it :) Not to put too finer point on it, Eve evolves. Get used to it. Maybe you just don't "get Eve"?
Bryg Philomena Don't Taze Me Bro	Posted - 2011.01.06 09:39:00 - [75] Originally by: Wiki Leaks Originally by: Serpents smile You don't get EVE. Standard unquantifiable answer. The simple fact remains, nobody knows a good reason why not to sell skills directly, they always end up at this common back stop excuse. Many people will turn up and claim to know a good reason, then spout out their "good" reason, only for it to have no basis in reality, the legion of secret millionaires who are going to flood eve with supertitan pilots being their very favourite. Simply though, they have no idea, but they do know they fear change. Because I am rich in game and can get anything I want. I like the time it takes to get things though. And wtf are you talking about supercap pilots? Did you NOT see the increase demand for titan/sc after the learning refund? No? Probably because you aren't involved in that, n00b. Stop whining. Buying skills is ****ed. Originally by:** CCP Wrangler Am I reading this correctly? You claim you have a bug that undresses female avatars??? Your signature
Wiki Leaks	Posted - 2011.01.06 09:43:00 - [76] Edited by: Wiki Leaks on 06/01/2011 09:44:10 Originally by: Bryg Philomena Originally by: Wiki Leaks Originally by: Serpents smile You don't get EVE. Standard unquantifiable answer. The simple fact remains, nobody knows a good reason why not to sell skills directly, they always end up at this common back stop excuse. Many people will turn up and claim to know a good reason, then spout out their "good" reason, only for it to have no basis in reality, the legion of secret millionaires who are going to flood eve with supertitan pilots being their very favourite. Simply though, they have no idea, but they do know they fear change. Because I am rich in game and can get anything I want. I like the time it takes to get things though. And wtf are you talking about supercap pilots? Did you NOT see the increase demand for titan/sc after the learning refund? No? Probably because you aren't involved in that, n00b. Stop whining. Buying skills is ******ed. You said "n00b" and "stop whining". I like that you said those things. You also made an assertion. I like that you made an assertion. Super stuff.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.01.06 09:44:00 - [77] Originally by: Wiki Leaks k. àand more to the point, there are actually no reason to do what the OP suggests. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Wiki Leaks	Posted - 2011.01.06 09:52:00 - [78] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Wiki Leaks k. àand more to the point, there are actually no reason to do what the OP suggests. Don't let that get out. I prefer the baying mob to keep repeat shouting that which makes no sense.
Mashie Saldana Minmatar Veto Corp	Posted - 2011.01.06 10:13:00 - [79] Originally by: Lady Spank Originally by: Mashie Saldana OMG, Jenny Spitfire is back! It hasn't been the original owner for years. I know, this is Jenny mk 4 or something.
Norian Lonark Gallente Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance	Posted - 2011.01.06 11:00:00 - [80] quote] I don`t like this way of thinking. Waiting for skills has nothing to do with "instant gratification" or whatever, it is simply way to collect money from you. If you get overtly gratified over getting another notch in your skill board, well lets just say you are probably very easily amused. Do not rationalize your behaviour, most humans tend to go for gathering and feeling good about it... And of course marketing uses this to their advantage. But trying to attribute something positive to yourself over willingness to be Pavlov`s dog or donkey after a dangling carrot is absolutely hilarious. With this way of thinking why have skills at all why not just give everyone everything to begin with?

Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2011.01.06 11:02:00 - [81] Edited by: Destination SkillQueue on 06/01/2011 11:02:57 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire I really love and adore this idea. I haven't had much time taking care of eve because of other real life commitments. It is quite hectic in real life working from 0730 to 2230 sometimes. Make it happen. Oh Jenny, Blane Xero is going to be so happy to hear you have returned to grace us with your presense on the forums again. He always gets so excited when someone happens to even mention your name.
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2011.01.06 11:09:00 - [82] Originally by: Norian Lonark With this way of thinking why have skills at all why not just give everyone everything to begin with? Why give away stuff for free when you can make people pay for it?
Terion Fierceglade	Posted - 2011.01.06 11:23:00 - [83] I'm still very new to this game but I think it's an awful idea. If I had the opportunity to buy all the skills I wanted in a flash what would be the point in having them? You don't get better at the game just because your character has everything it needs to be "the best".
Arianne Stone	Posted - 2011.01.06 11:26:00 - [84] I have a very new character, it is frustrating sometimes getting your character skilled up but buying those skills would be cheating. Although I'm not directly doing anything to level up my skills, every minute I spend playing eve improves my knowledge and ability so that I can use my skills more effectively. I don't need the artificial boost of being a high skilled character right now, I have pride and I'm stubborn I'll get the skills by myself.
Xen0nn Amarr UK Corp -Mostly Harmless-	Posted - 2011.01.06 11:33:00 - [85] Edited by: Xen0nn on 06/01/2011 11:35:44 Spend some time on Sisi and you'll find out, exactly why it's a bad idea. On the other hand, it will provide some juici failfit KM's..
JustDelivery	Posted - 2011.01.06 12:07:00 - [86] buying SP???? no, that would make the game unfair and better for the one who has most money... if you want that GO PLAY WOW thats what they pride them self on
Gecko O'Bac Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.01.06 12:44:00 - [87] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Skex Relbore In my last MMO(EQ) I was an end game raider. I enjoyed that aspect of the game and pretty much detested grinding Killing the same NPC for the 15000th time just can not be fun, killing basically the same NPC with a new skin and 200x the HP than the first for the 150000000000th time can't be fun either. Yet not doing it wasn't an option if I wanted to be able to participate in the part of the game I enjoyed I had to go out and kill 15,000,000,000 NPCs to get the experience to max my level to be able to get into the new raid zones and equip any equipment that might drop in it. àand I think similar experiences from other (completely different) games is where a lot of the confusion and frustration about the EVE skill system comes from. People assume that, just like in those games, you have to XP-grind/level up a ton to reach the end game. (And I use "you" in the general sense here, not as "you, Skex"). The problem is just that there are no XP (because SP is not the same things), there are no levels (and what level-like stuff there is does not actually work as levels), and most importantly of all: there is no endgame. "But caps/0.0 conquest/officer-fitted mission-massacre ships" I hear someone sayà No, that's not an end-game. Those are simply some players' personal goals. The main problem with the idea of buying SP is that it assumes there is this kind of other-game:ly end-game and that you need to get there to have fun, when the reality all there is are those personal goals you set for yourself. Buying SP would mean that you rob yourself of a large section of those goals. So not only does the game offer no objective end-game ù you've most likely also removed your personal, subjective end-goal. What goals remain are those that are not contingent on skills, but guess what: they are, unsurprisingly, not contingent on skills, so you would have been able to pursue them regardless. If people find a way to enjoy the journey, then EVE will make them bitter in very short order, because they will soon discover that the game offers them absolutely nothing at the end of that journey ù the reward for all that misery they felt is nil. Adding mechanisms that let people skip the journey means that all they're doing is skipping the fun part and throwing themselves head-long into quitting the game. Yeah... You see... It's a common problem with sandboxes... It's kinda the "Blank sheet syndrome" of gaming... Put a certain kind of gamer in a sandbox and he will dig to the bottom just to find there's no bottom and whine that it is so, while other gamers in the same time are building vast metropolitan complexes or vast underground dwarf-like cave systems. (Man I've been playing too much minecraft lately lol).
Luminos Durid is 4 Fite	Posted - 2011.01.06 14:07:00 - [88] Originally by: Skex Relbore The great thing about EVE as Tippia so rightly pointed out is that unlike other games you don't have to play to progress your character. ... (30 seconds later) ... As far as the OP goes. The proposed idea is dumb because of all the reasons various people have given plus the fact that it removes a major part of building a character. The character bazaar is a different beast for a number of reasons 1 someone had to actually spend the time training them the hard way The goggles, they do nothing. The contradiction still burns my eyes like the claws of a thousand rabid weasels. Will somebody please explain to me what's so hard about not playing to skill up? ______ I feel as though I could do anything. For example, stab this cheese knife into the Self-Taught Man's eye.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.01.06 14:18:00 - [89] Originally by: Luminos Will somebody please explain to me what's so hard about not playing to skill up? Nothing. When he says "the hard way" he simply means waiting until the skills have simmered to perfection, rather than having them nukezapped into tastelessness in 3 minutes by paying much more for the TV dinner version. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
De'Veldrin Minmatar Green-Core The Obsidian Legion	Posted - 2011.01.06 14:53:00 - [90] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Luminos Will somebody please explain to me what's so hard about not playing to skill up? Nothing. When he says "the hard way" he simply means waiting until the skills have simmered to perfection, rather than having them nukezapped into tastelessness in 3 minutes by paying much more for the TV dinner version. You owe me a cup of coffee, a new keyboard, and a white silk blouse. But that was some funny ****, so it was worth the trip to the cleaners. --Vel I'm more of a care-badger.

Luminos Durid is 4 Fite	Posted - 2011.01.06 14:59:00 - [91] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Luminos Will somebody please explain to me what's so hard about not playing to skill up? Nothing. When he says "the hard way" he simply means waiting until the skills have simmered to perfection, rather than having them nukezapped into tastelessness in 3 minutes by paying much more for the TV dinner version. Ahh, now that actually seems logical. Not logging in keeps the seal intact and locks in the flavor. I'm not really in favor of paying for skills, but I do wish people would use sensible arguments to support their position. ______ I feel as though I could do anything. For example, stab this cheese knife into the Self-Taught Man's eye.
Wiki Leaks	Posted - 2011.01.06 15:16:00 - [92] Edited by: Wiki Leaks on 06/01/2011 15:17:32 Originally by: Luminos I'm not really in favor of paying for skills, but I do wish people would use sensible arguments to support their position. What are your favourite failarguments so far? I can't decide between "You just don't get Eve if you think this is a good idea" I like this one because it's an appeal to stagnation and doesn't actually state any reason why not to do it. It's pretty sweet as "getting Eve" isn't a defined attribute, so basically you can't really use it as a jump in point to debate with anyway, they could easily have said "You don't feel the same way I do but you should" and that is somehow supposed to be a rationalisation, which it isn't. "There are many reasons why not, so many I cannot list them, not even one of them" I like this one because it reminds me of Dorothy trying to get home in her smart red shoes. There's no place like home.... There's no place like home.... There's no place like home.... "Everybody would simply be flying a Titan on day 1". This one is fascinating. The delicious temptation to exaggerate is one thing, but it's an entirely different thing to actually believe it. When you ask them where they think the money is going to come from to pay for it, get ready to see "You don't get Eve". Which is your favourite though, and why?
Nova Fox Gallente Novafox Shipyards	Posted - 2011.01.06 15:32:00 - [93] For the low low low cost of a titan you too can own every skill in eve. Pre-order your Sisters of ≡v≡ Exploration ship today, Updated 1SEPT10
Maximillian Dragonard	Posted - 2011.01.06 15:46:00 - [94] Not NO, but HELL NO!
Luminos Durid is 4 Fite	Posted - 2011.01.06 15:54:00 - [95] Well, I'm a serious fan of any internally conflicting argument, but lets take a stroll down memory lane: "If you could buy all the skills you need to do whatever you want ingame, the game would become boring and pointless very quickly." - There's nothing to EvE except new skills. As soon as I have 100M SP I've won EvE and I finally get to move on to Super Mario 64. "Eve is a game of time vs reward. Remove the time, there is no point in playing as the reward has no value." - The only time involved in EvE is the time it takes before you get to start doing things. Without the station spinning part of EvE, what's the point? "You don't get* EVE."* - Your CD is still in the mail, wait until you've installed the game before critiquing it. "Because it will murderize Eve. Sell skills, and the game dies shortly after." - Skill queues are the lifeblood of EvE's rich gameplay experience. Without them, how will we know how big our Epeens are? "The reason is very simple: it would remove the balance of ability progression and it would reduce the staying/holding-power of the game." - EvE is actually a very subtle study of OCD in gamer society. Removing the skill system destroys the entire point of us setting up CCP in a country with lax informed consent laws. "1) The total SP pool of all characters is unchanged by bazar trading and, 2) The SP pool you can acquire from the bazar is limited in size by being AT MOST as much as the highest SP pool in the game" - There is a "SP pool", and it ... magic, ???, profit! If there weren't any noobs I'd never win PvP? "I think you are asking the question because you like the idea of a 1 month old char with 100mil SP so you can bait people who look at char age and estimate SP." - If there weren't any noobs I'd never win PvP, v2.0. "Perhaps "you" gain your enjoyment from a game by bragging that you have the highest level this, and the highest possible skills in that, but most of us only enjoy making those statements if they have actually earned the right to brag... not because they bought them." - I've been logged out watching Saturday morning cartoons while earning my EvE bragging rights for years, you little punk. "NO TO MICROTRANSACTIONS THAT CHANGE GAMEPLAY!" - They'll remove my own ability to skill up without paying! "Everyone else have figured out that the point of the game is to play the game. The fact that you also accrue skill points while you do this is a rather happy coincidence, and the fact that this process is completely separated from the act of playing the game is what makes EVE rather unique." - Wait, that's actually a well put together thought. It's not really an argument against SP buying, but it's telling that so few people are putting forth the idea that if you aren't having fun now you probably won't be having fun with 75M SP. "Because if you buy a character on the bazar you are buying skills that have taken the time to been trained. If you could buy skillpoints you are magically creating skillpoints out of thin air with no one ever taking the time to train them." - This idea will make the characters I've had cooking since 2007 worthless. ______ I feel as though I could do anything. For example, stab this cheese knife into the Self-Taught Man's eye.
mooimafish	Posted - 2011.01.06 16:00:00 - [96] Originally by: Myxx OP: STFU. It wont happen, take a look at the microtransactions threadnaught. it already happens, right here http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=channel&channelID=734105
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.01.06 16:05:00 - [97] Originally by: mooimafish it already happens, right here http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=channel&channelID=734105 No it does not. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Wiki Leaks	Posted - 2011.01.06 16:06:00 - [98] Edited by: Wiki Leaks on 06/01/2011 16:06:33 Originally by: Luminos Damm... you're good. You're >this< far from being insulted as my obvious alt.
Erin Eraser	Posted - 2011.01.06 16:12:00 - [99] Everyone who doesn't want this probably plays in plex anyway so their point to moot. Sorry you poor leeches. The grownups have a bit more money than the 46 cents you managed to sc**** together from lunch money change.
Nova Fox Gallente Novafox Shipyards	Posted - 2011.01.06 16:13:00 - [100] Edited by: Nova Fox on 06/01/2011 16:13:44 I would rather have to go out and kill hundreds of npcs and players for an SP boost than to buy it. Also this would further seperate the haves from the have nots and fully favor the older players in the game ALOT more than the newer players. Pre-order your Sisters of ≡v≡ Exploration ship today, Updated 1SEPT10

Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.01.06 16:13:00 - [101] Originally by: Erin Eraser Everyone who doesn't want this probably plays in plex anyway Nope. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Skex Relbore Gallente Red Federation	Posted - 2011.01.06 16:17:00 - [102] Originally by: Luminos Originally by: Skex Relbore The great thing about EVE as Tippia so rightly pointed out is that unlike other games you don't have to play to progress your character. ... (30 seconds later) ... As far as the OP goes. The proposed idea is dumb because of all the reasons various people have given plus the fact that it removes a major part of building a character. The character bazaar is a different beast for a number of reasons 1 someone had to actually spend the time training them the hard way The goggles, they do nothing. The contradiction still burns my eyes like the claws of a thousand rabid weasels. Will somebody please explain to me what's so hard about not playing to skill up? Your lack of reading comprehension skills doesn't not a contradiction make. The hard way in this case means that someone had to have the patience to plan out and then manage that skill queue. Sure it's not super hard but it's still harder than say buying 100million skillpoints and applying them to exactly the skills you want in a few minutes time. A big part of the game is figuring out how to skill your character for best value. "Do I really need that skill to 5 could it make do with 4 or even 3, how many other skills could I get to 4 in the time it would take me to get that skill to 5 is the advantage provided really worth it? does it open up a new ship or new item that I really want to be able use." then there is the anticipation while you wait for the skills to complete the impatience while waiting and finally the reward once it comes through. which is more gratifying because of the anticipation. Oh and if it wasn't hard why would people be crying for a way to make it easier (buying skillpoints)>
Khorian Gallente Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.01.06 17:03:00 - [103] Threads like these didn't happen a few years back, at least not as frequently. These are the kind of guys that get attracted to the game by making it easier accessible. As time passes, more and more of these guys will appear in this game, and eventually someone will listen to their stupid ideas and eventually in a few years the game will be an empty shell of what it once was. We can only hope that CCP will stay somewhat true to its principles that made EVE possible in the first place!
Fallan Fraud	Posted - 2011.01.06 17:15:00 - [104] Originally by: Khorian Threads like these didn't happen a few years back, at least not as frequently. These are the kind of guys that get attracted to the game by making it easier accessible. As time passes, more and more of these guys will appear in this game, and eventually someone will listen to their stupid ideas and eventually in a few years the game will be an empty shell of what it once was. We can only hope that CCP will stay somewhat true to its principles that made EVE possible in the first place! Someone who doesn't think the way you do MUST be different. Anyone who thinks something like the OP's idea is good MUST be new they COULDN"T POSSIBLY be a veteran. Just like anyone who robs a liquor store MUST be an uneducated n word. They couldn't possibly be a white person down on their luck. "This is just what happens when those dumb n words start moving in, I'm sure there will be fried chicken outlets popping up all over the place next"
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2011.01.06 17:20:00 - [105] I'd quit if this happened. Simple as. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS...
Serge Bastana Gallente GWA Corp	Posted - 2011.01.06 17:26:00 - [106] Originally by: Wiki Leaks Originally by: Serge Bastana The OP really really does not get EVE, they make claims they do but it's blatantly obvious they have missed one the biggest aspects of the game, which has been mentioned several times in previous comments made here. But what if the OP really does get Eve though? What if they do get it, and they just don't fear changing it? Perhaps because they don't perceive in protectionist terms? What if it is you that doesn't "get Eve"? What if somebody asked you to define what "getting Eve" is? What would you do then? You'd start a thread that would descend into 30 people giving 40 opinions, none of which would have any more validity than any other except for the number of +1's and QFT's a particularly followed bittervet attracts. It still wouldn't define what "getting Eve" is because "getting Eve" is entirely the choice of the individual. I get Eve. I just don't get Eve the same way you're ever going to get Eve. Originally by: Serge Bastana Besides the time factor being a way to keep people interested in the game, it serves another purpuse. It gives players time to learn about flying and fitting ships, tactics, the most efficient methods to achieve goals, etc. Let's pretend this is true. Would it not be better therefore to allow people to fly better ships once they had correctly fitted and flown a lesser ship? Thus meaning you don't have to wait based on somebody else's poor learning speed? Originally by: Serge Bastana Does anyone remember the story about that idiot who got his dreadnought blown up when he tried to use it solo with possibly the worst fitting anyone had probably seen. If you scan through some of the old articles from a few years back in Eve Tribune you will find the story there. Are we now advocating treating everybody as equally stupid based on the misadventures of one particularly gifted individual? Originally by: Serge Bastana This story illustrates perfectly what happens when people buy high SP chars from the bazaar then try to fly ships they have no clue how to fit or use effectively. Ok, and what exactly does it illustrate? The End Of Eve? Nope. Some lolz? Yes. And what else? That's right. Nothing else. Originally by: Serge Bastana The same would happen if you had people able to simply purchase millions of SP in one go, it might give those of us who appreciate the time/experience aspect a good laugh but it would also produce so many whine threads that with the rest of us getting fed up the game and quitting, that's all the forums would be in the end. That's right, the same would happen. Nothing, except more lolz. Originally by: Serge Bastana Those who want instant SP the way the OP suggests are the 'instant gratification' crowd. EVE does not cater to you the way you want, get used to it :) Not to put too finer point on it, Eve evolves. Get used to it. Maybe you just don't "get Eve"? No, you get used to that fact that this is what has attracted a lot of the playerbase, how CCP has designed the game and just stop pretending that you know better, because you completely miss the point every time you post. The game is designed a certain way, you won't get what you want here, so you get used to it :) ------------------------------------------------ You either need a punch up the throat or a good shag. Nobody round here is offering the second one therefore your choices are limited!
Serge Bastana Gallente GWA Corp	Posted - 2011.01.06 17:34:00 - [107] Originally by: Erin Eraser Everyone who doesn't want this probably plays in plex anyway so their point to moot. Sorry you poor leeches. The grownups have a bit more money than the 46 cents you managed to sc**** together from lunch money change. Another assumption which is completely incorrect. I buy my subscription for a year, for both my accounts. I work for a living and have money. So classing anyone who doesn't like the childish, instant gratification as a money grubbing child is just clutching at straws while you climb out from under your bridge :D ------------------------------------------------ You either need a punch up the throat or a good shag. Nobody round here is offering the second one therefore your choices are limited!
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles	Posted - 2011.01.06 18:25:00 - [108] Originally by: bluenzo Because if you buy a character on the bazar you are buying skills that have taken the time to been trained. If you could buy skillpoints you are magically creating skillpoints out of thin air with no one ever taking the time to train them. Answer: never I wonder how things would work out if naturally-trained SP could be redeemed for tokens and placed on the market, e.g. 1m sp at a time? This would help people keep their clone costs down by ditching SP they don't use, and would allow younger characters an alternative means of paying to get ahead, avoiding character transfers. I think there'd be quite a bit of interest - a lot of players are reaching the point where they've run out of relevant, worthwhile skills to train. --- 34.4:1 mineral compression
Jimer Lins Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.01.06 18:30:00 - [109] Despite the claim, several very cogent points have been made about why purchasable skillpoints is a bad idea. Another factor that I find interesting is that the calls for this type of feature generally come from newer players. This is understandable as they are the ones most likely to look at a player with 50 million SP vs their own 5 or 10 million and say "I will never be able to catch up to that guy, that's not fair!" The problem with this line of thinking is that it ignores some very important and fundamental facts- most importantly that skills are capped. You cannot get past level 5 in any skill no matter how long you play. Once you have Gallente Cruiser 5 (and the requisite support skills) your "on-paper" ability to fly a Vexor (for example) never gets any better whether you have 20 million SP or 80 million. Once you pass the basics of support skills, the only difference between veterans and newbies on paper is the number of ships and systems they can use. The number of SP in play when you go up against someone in-game, defined as the ones put into the skills you're actively using, is much lower than the number of SP you actually have. The basic difference between veterans and new players is that veterans can choose from more roles or activities within the game. The new player must make choices about their skills to determine what they would like to do next, and this is basic MMO design. Making it possible for someone to just do anything with no effort or delay eliminates one of the biggest reasons for an MMO to exist- the ongoing satisfaction of watching your progress in small increments as you move toward a defined goal. And as I said before, the skillpoint pool is much like the ISK pool in game. The balance of characters and their skills is as much a requirement for the game to work as is the regular economy of the game. Blog and Podcast - Twitter: DeclareWar
Eagle Tarquinas Gallente Reliables Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2011.01.06 18:47:00 - [110] In the words of engrish Darth Vader: "DO NOT WANT"

Gecko O'Bac Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.01.06 19:24:00 - [111] Originally by: Jimer Lins Despite the claim, several very cogent points have been made about why purchasable skillpoints is a bad idea. Another factor that I find interesting is that the calls for this type of feature generally come from newer players. This is understandable as they are the ones most likely to look at a player with 50 million SP vs their own 5 or 10 million and say "I will never be able to catch up to that guy, that's not fair!" The problem with this line of thinking is that it ignores some very important and fundamental facts- most importantly that skills are capped. You cannot get past level 5 in any skill no matter how long you play. Once you have Gallente Cruiser 5 (and the requisite support skills) your "on-paper" ability to fly a Vexor (for example) never gets any better whether you have 20 million SP or 80 million. Once you pass the basics of support skills, the only difference between veterans and newbies on paper is the number of ships and systems they can use. The number of SP in play when you go up against someone in-game, defined as the ones put into the skills you're actively using, is much lower than the number of SP you actually have. The basic difference between veterans and new players is that veterans can choose from more roles or activities within the game. The new player must make choices about their skills to determine what they would like to do next, and this is basic MMO design. Making it possible for someone to just do anything with no effort or delay eliminates one of the biggest reasons for an MMO to exist- the ongoing satisfaction of watching your progress in small increments as you move toward a defined goal. And as I said before, the skillpoint pool is much like the ISK pool in game. The balance of characters and their skills is as much a requirement for the game to work as is the regular economy of the game. Good luck with this... Those are all good points you make but imho it's not worth the effort... I'm not even sure if there's somebody seriously arguing PRO buying skills or just a couple of trolls. Either case, since they're blatantly ignoring what multiple people are saying, I'd say it's a waste of time trying to convince them.
Serge Bastana Gallente GWA Corp	Posted - 2011.01.06 19:29:00 - [112] I very much get the same feeling. The counter arguments are so weak they have to be trolls and it's descended into childish generalisations from them so who cares. Like CCP would listen to them anyway. ------------------------------------------------ You either need a punch up the throat or a good shag. Nobody round here is offering the second one therefore your choices are limited!
Skex Relbore Gallente Red Federation	Posted - 2011.01.06 19:29:00 - [113] Originally by: Gecko O'Bac Originally by: Jimer Lins Despite the claim, several very cogent points have been made about why purchasable skillpoints is a bad idea. Another factor that I find interesting is that the calls for this type of feature generally come from newer players. This is understandable as they are the ones most likely to look at a player with 50 million SP vs their own 5 or 10 million and say "I will never be able to catch up to that guy, that's not fair!" The problem with this line of thinking is that it ignores some very important and fundamental facts- most importantly that skills are capped. You cannot get past level 5 in any skill no matter how long you play. Once you have Gallente Cruiser 5 (and the requisite support skills) your "on-paper" ability to fly a Vexor (for example) never gets any better whether you have 20 million SP or 80 million. Once you pass the basics of support skills, the only difference between veterans and newbies on paper is the number of ships and systems they can use. The number of SP in play when you go up against someone in-game, defined as the ones put into the skills you're actively using, is much lower than the number of SP you actually have. The basic difference between veterans and new players is that veterans can choose from more roles or activities within the game. The new player must make choices about their skills to determine what they would like to do next, and this is basic MMO design. Making it possible for someone to just do anything with no effort or delay eliminates one of the biggest reasons for an MMO to exist- the ongoing satisfaction of watching your progress in small increments as you move toward a defined goal. And as I said before, the skillpoint pool is much like the ISK pool in game. The balance of characters and their skills is as much a requirement for the game to work as is the regular economy of the game. Good luck with this... Those are all good points you make but imho it's not worth the effort... I'm not even sure if there's somebody seriously arguing PRO buying skills or just a couple of trolls. Either case, since they're blatantly ignoring what multiple people are saying, I'd say it's a waste of time trying to convince them. No one is trying to convince them of anything. The responses are to ensure that some bean counter from CCP doesn't look in the forums and think "hey! That's a great idea"
De'Veldrin Minmatar Green-Core The Obsidian Legion	Posted - 2011.01.06 19:36:00 - [114] Originally by: Jimer Lins The basic difference between veterans and new players is Experience using their ships and the equipment on them, which is something that no amount of bought and paid for skill points can give you. --Vel I'm more of a care-badger.
Wiki Leaks	Posted - 2011.01.06 20:47:00 - [115] Originally by: Serge Bastana Originally by: Wiki Leaks Originally by: Serge Bastana The OP really really does not get EVE, they make claims they do but it's blatantly obvious they have missed one the biggest aspects of the game, which has been mentioned several times in previous comments made here. But what if the OP really does get Eve though? What if they do get it, and they just don't fear changing it? Perhaps because they don't perceive in protectionist terms? What if it is you that doesn't "get Eve"? What if somebody asked you to define what "getting Eve" is? What would you do then? You'd start a thread that would descend into 30 people giving 40 opinions, none of which would have any more validity than any other except for the number of +1's and QFT's a particularly followed bittervet attracts. It still wouldn't define what "getting Eve" is because "getting Eve" is entirely the choice of the individual. I get Eve. I just don't get Eve the same way you're ever going to get Eve. Originally by: Serge Bastana Besides the time factor being a way to keep people interested in the game, it serves another purpuse. It gives players time to learn about flying and fitting ships, tactics, the most efficient methods to achieve goals, etc. Let's pretend this is true. Would it not be better therefore to allow people to fly better ships once they had correctly fitted and flown a lesser ship? Thus meaning you don't have to wait based on somebody else's poor learning speed? Originally by: Serge Bastana Does anyone remember the story about that idiot who got his dreadnought blown up when he tried to use it solo with possibly the worst fitting anyone had probably seen. If you scan through some of the old articles from a few years back in Eve Tribune you will find the story there. Are we now advocating treating everybody as equally stupid based on the misadventures of one particularly gifted individual? Originally by: Serge Bastana This story illustrates perfectly what happens when people buy high SP chars from the bazaar then try to fly ships they have no clue how to fit or use effectively. Ok, and what exactly does it illustrate? The End Of Eve? Nope. Some lolz? Yes. And what else? That's right. Nothing else. Originally by: Serge Bastana The same would happen if you had people able to simply purchase millions of SP in one go, it might give those of us who appreciate the time/experience aspect a good laugh but it would also produce so many whine threads that with the rest of us getting fed up the game and quitting, that's all the forums would be in the end. That's right, the same would happen. Nothing, except more lolz. Originally by: Serge Bastana Those who want instant SP the way the OP suggests are the 'instant gratification' crowd. EVE does not cater to you the way you want, get used to it :) Not to put too finer point on it, Eve evolves. Get used to it. Maybe you just don't "get Eve"? No, you get used to that fact that this is what has attracted a lot of the playerbase, how CCP has designed the game and just stop pretending that you know better, because you completely miss the point every time you post. The game is designed a certain way, you won't get what you want here, so you get used to it :) So the best you can do is "NO U" ? Copy paste Jimer Lins at least. He sounds like a veteran because he agrees with your point, and I don't sound like a veteran because I don't.
Wiki Leaks	Posted - 2011.01.06 20:49:00 - [116] Adding "NO U" to my list of "Good Reasons To Never Change The Skill System"
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2011.01.06 21:55:00 - [117] Originally by: Destination SkillQueue Edited by: Destination SkillQueue on 06/01/2011 11:02:57 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire I really love and adore this idea. I haven't had much time taking care of eve because of other real life commitments. It is quite hectic in real life working from 0730 to 2230 sometimes. Make it happen. Oh Jenny, Blane Xero is going to be so happy to hear you have returned to grace us with your presense on the forums again. He always gets so excited when someone happens to even mention your name. Yeah, I guess he must very happy to see his good friend back. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Go vote! Put voice for silent majority. LOVE PVP, HATE grief
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2011.01.06 22:11:00 - [118] Originally by: Jimer Lins Despite the claim, several very cogent points have been made about why purchasable skillpoints is a bad idea. Another factor that I find interesting is that the calls for this type of feature generally come from newer players. This is understandable as they are the ones most likely to look at a player with 50 million SP vs their own 5 or 10 million and say "I will never be able to catch up to that guy, that's not fair!" The problem with this line of thinking is that it ignores some very important and fundamental facts- most importantly that skills are capped. You cannot get past level 5 in any skill no matter how long you play. Once you have Gallente Cruiser 5 (and the requisite support skills) your "on-paper" ability to fly a Vexor (for example) never gets any better whether you have 20 million SP or 80 million. Once you pass the basics of support skills, the only difference between veterans and newbies on paper is the number of ships and systems they can use. The number of SP in play when you go up against someone in-game, defined as the ones put into the skills you're actively using, is much lower than the number of SP you actually have. The basic difference between veterans and new players is that veterans can choose from more roles or activities within the game. The new player must make choices about their skills to determine what they would like to do next, and this is basic MMO design. Making it possible for someone to just do anything with no effort or delay eliminates one of the biggest reasons for an MMO to exist- the ongoing satisfaction of watching your progress in small increments as you move toward a defined goal. And as I said before, the skillpoint pool is much like the ISK pool in game. The balance of characters and their skills is as much a requirement for the game to work as is the regular economy of the game. Jimer, it is a shame to have this thought. New players should have a chance to try out everything without going through the burn out phase to level up basic skills like navigation, engineering because they want to be a high level miner than a high level fighter. It is very frustrating and boring to train two characters at the same time for such purpose. If the company lets players inject liquidity into their characters, they can train one character quicker and experience less burn out. Hence, enjoy the game whenever they feel like forking to different roles. CCP already gives up remapping of attributes. Buying skill points is the next natural step ahead in such a progression. There is nothing wrong to it, to be honest. Players win, CCP wins. No harm done. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Go vote! Put voice for silent majority. LOVE PVP, HATE grief
Brannor McThife Caldari Lambent Enterprises Black Thorne Alliance	Posted - 2011.01.06 22:13:00 - [119] Originally by: De'Veldrin Originally by: Jimer Lins The basic difference between veterans and new players is Experience using their ships and the equipment on them, which is something that no amount of bought and paid for skill points can give you. No, that's where you're wrong. Someone could throw a few thousand $$$ at characters, skills, and a few motherships/titans and all they'd need is rudementary fitting knowledge and they'd kick a small fleet of vet's asses. Hell, if I was a Russian Billionaire, I could take over EvE and really win. CCP would get rich, but I'd own New Eden and you'd all have to hide in high-sec from my Titan blobs. Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington I'd quit if this happened. Simple as. /Thread.
Tamahra Gallente Danke fuer den Fisch	Posted - 2011.01.06 22:15:00 - [120] Originally by: Pocket Ace5 And why shouldnt we allow people to directly build their own characters with PLEX? Because it would ruin the monotony of waiting months to do it? Because CCP doesnt give a rat¦s ass about the proposals of a random person, who has probably just started playing eve and will quit after a few weeks anyways. And because they know they wouldnt want to lose 100.000 + core players over the suggestion of a random newbie.

Serge Bastana Gallente GWA Corp	Posted - 2011.01.06 22:17:00 - [121] Edited by: Serge Bastana on 06/01/2011 22:17:24 Originally by: Wiki Leaks Adding "NO U" to my list of "Good Reasons To Never Change The Skill System" Sorry, I descended to your level for a while there. Four pages and you're still acting like a spoilt child. I gave you very good reasons but you choose to ignore them, so what's the point of presenting reasoned argument when you simply stick your fingers in your ears and attempt to use the most spurious arguments I've seen on the forums for a while tp try to make your own point seem more valid than those already provided, which you aren't but you don't care that the reasons given are why so many of us enjoy this game, primarily because those who want instant gratification in the manner you prescribe tend to stamp their feet and go find some other game to get their jollies in. I'll just sit back and watch you rage while those who can put forward reasoned argument repeat the reasons you won't get what you want. ------------------------------------------------ You either need a punch up the throat or a good shag. Nobody round here is offering the second one therefore your choices are limited!
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2011.01.06 22:17:00 - [122] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 06/01/2011 22:22:33 Originally by: Brannor McThife No, that's where you're wrong. Someone could throw a few thousand $$$ at characters, skills, and a few motherships/titans and all they'd need is rudementary fitting knowledge and they'd kick a small fleet of vet's asses. Hell, if I was a Russian Billionaire, I could take over EvE and really win. CCP would get rich, but I'd own New Eden and you'd all have to hide in high-sec from my Titan blobs. That is only the big IF, which is unlikely to happen, to be honest. No Russian billionaire will buy this game like that. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Go vote! Put voice for silent majority. LOVE PVP, HATE grief
Brannor McThife Caldari Lambent Enterprises Black Thorne Alliance	Posted - 2011.01.06 23:20:00 - [123] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire That is only the big IF, which is unlikely to happen, to be honest. No Russian billionaire will buy this game like that. They did it in Football... :P But... what if Blizzard wanted to destroy EvE? Wouldn't take that much to pay a small company to create a bunch of accounts and do this... The minute you allow RL cash to influence the game so easily, you open the door for your competitors to destroy your game. Yse yes... tinfoil hat stuff... but it could happed. Anyway... wouldn't matter to me, because as soon as the door opened, I'd be out the other way. -G
Lain Umi	Posted - 2011.01.06 23:28:00 - [124] Edited by: Lain Umi on 06/01/2011 23:29:17 Originally by: Amateratsu Buying skills would destroy 1 of the major concepts that helps make eve online the great game it is. If you could buy all the skills you need to do whatever you want ingame, the game would become boring and pointless very quickly. there would be nothing left to work or strive for. this idea has been suggested and rejected many times and will hopefully never happen. the amount of emo rage quitting would drawf anything we've seen ingame to date. I have to give this idea a big fat NO. are you actually saying that waiting for a skill to finish training is what makes eve the great game it is? thats ridiculous. what makes eve great is the market. thats it. it's a sandbox pvp game. if anything, the most annoying part about the game is waiting 3 months so you can fly a specific ship. it contributes absolutely nothing to the game's mechanics.
Xia Shianggu	Posted - 2011.01.07 00:45:00 - [125] The requirement that skills progress and are built gradually is vital to making EVE an enjoyable game. No, not because everyone likes waiting. No-one likes waiting. Waiting sucks. A critical issue is, in fact, choice paralysis. Let's assume that I'm a rank newbie with cash to blow at whim, and I start a new character. I blow a pile of cash to get 100 million SP or more. I can fly any ship, do any industry. What, then, do I do? I have no idea what I want to do. I don't really know what the possibilities are. I don't know how to fly a ship well, so if I try PvP it's going to be frustrating and pointless. I don't know how to build a worthwhile industrial setup, so I'll get lost trying to do that. I don't know anything, anything at all, so I'll poke about randomly, get bored and quit. Building a character gradually, you have to pick and choose which skills to train. You'll be working with what you've got, experimenting with the things you can do within your limited skillset, you'll be picking something you want to be able to do and you'll be getting into that thing while you build the skills you need to do it well. Maybe you'll want to change paths - that's fine, EVE lets you do that. If you buy a skilled character on the bazaar, the odds are that character is also going to have been skilled to /a purpose/, which means again, you have some direction to your play. In EVE, you have a true sandbox. You can do anything. The skill system, especially for new players, is part of what helps you narrow the focus to being able to find something specific to do.
xavier69 Gallente Stark Enterprises LLC	Posted - 2011.01.07 02:55:00 - [126] Edited by: xavier69 on 07/01/2011 03:01:26 So basically you want to buy a better character than I have after 7 years ? Wow that sounds like all other online games that reward the 10 year old who plays 17 hours a day on moms dime and bends over the hard working player who has a life... Looking at our skill system i think your ANSWER is allready there FJUCK NO You want to buy a character then use this forum Character Bazaar like everyone else and have a nice glass of ....STFU XOXOXOXO
Luminos Durid is 4 Fite	Posted - 2011.01.07 03:20:00 - [127] Originally by: Skex Relbore Your lack of reading comprehension skills doesn't not a contradiction make. The hard way in this case means that someone had to have the patience to plan out and then manage that skill queue. Sure it's not super hard but it's still harder than say buying 100million skillpoints and applying them to exactly the skills you want in a few minutes time. A big part of the game is figuring out how to skill your character for best value. "Do I really need that skill to 5 could it make do with 4 or even 3, how many other skills could I get to 4 in the time it would take me to get that skill to 5 is the advantage provided really worth it? does it open up a new ship or new item that I really want to be able use." then there is the anticipation while you wait for the skills to complete the impatience while waiting and finally the reward once it comes through. which is more gratifying because of the anticipation. Oh and if it wasn't hard why would people be crying for a way to make it easier (buying skillpoints)> That you didn't write what you meant doesn't mean I didn't read what you wrote. I'm going to let Lain handle this one though: Originally by: Lain Uni are you actually saying that waiting for a skill to finish training is what makes eve the great game it is? thats ridiculous. Skill managment isn't hard, just time consuming. And the only reason it's even that is due to CCP only letting you set up a 24 hour queue. It's a busy-work time sink, not an actual gameplay mechanic any designer should be proud of. Which is the response to your last point: The OP isn't asking to make skilling easier, just faster. Be happy though, you still don't even compare to what is now my favorite argument of the thread: Originally by: xavier69 So basically you want to buy a better character than I have after 7 years ? Or: "Because I'm a bittervet, and I said so." ______ I feel as though I could do anything. For example, stab this cheese knife into the Self-Taught Man's eye.
Skex Relbore Gallente Red Federation	Posted - 2011.01.07 05:07:00 - [128] Originally by: Luminos More bull**** Waiting is hard hell learning to wait is one hardest things most people learn in life. Skill progression and the planning of it is a core part of the game. It's not all there is to the game but it's still an important part of it. With it being real time based ones choices have lasting consequences. Making the choice between say training Racial cruiser 5 to open up T2 cruisers or Large Projectile 5 got get access to T2 guns represents a commitment to that choice. If you chose to go for large guns and you regret it 10 days into the train you're not going to get those 10 days back to switch over to your racial cruiser. If skill points could simply be bought that consequence would pretty much be erased. Which would mean that choices would matter less. Which dumbs down the entire process. Making it (wait for it) easier. I honestly have no objections to changes that would make skill training a tad faster as long as those changes are evenly available to all players, are measured and considered and not based on simply buying points. In fact I see no way for CCP to avoid it in the long run. For that matter I see them doing it on the down low already. From lowering certain prereq's on some items/skills in Dominion to the removal of learning skills and the flat out boosting of most peoples training speed with the attribute bump that came with the learning skill removal.
Birdman Ravo Legion of The Birds	Posted - 2011.01.07 05:39:00 - [129] Edited by: Birdman Ravo on 07/01/2011 05:44:58 Buying SP is a bad idea. Period. Let's look at one factor I feel is important regarding this: who has the isk? Giant null sec corps, mission runners, scammers, and [People of low intellectual developement] buying isk. Giant null sec alliances don't need another advantage. Moderate sized corps have little to no chance of branching outside of secure space without w-space or renting turf. Selling SP means these large alliances can counter anyone with capital ship blobs, ending what few independent corp pushes into nullsec the game has almost overnight. Mission runners are one of two classes: they run missions to fund PVP, or they run missions to fund missions. The first group is going to use SP to bull-rush into whatever FOTM currently exists, and create new ones to rush into since skilling into a ship becomes a non-issue. The second group is just going to get bored of mission running and since they don't like PVP the game just becomes lackluster. Scammers don't need SP. They're usually tied to one of the three other groups, meaning more SP to them. The fourth group speaks for itself. "I just started and I'm already flying a Wyvern! Hey! What button is shoot? What's this red bar mean? Hey, I'm in a round ship, did I level up? How come I'm docked? Why can't I fly that ship anymore? 'Up to date clone' - what the hell does that mean? I put $XXX into this game and lost it already? What a ****ing scam!"
digitalwanderer Gallente DF0 incorporated	Posted - 2011.01.07 05:58:00 - [130] For me,it doesn't affect me one way or another since as it is,i'm fast aproaching the 8 year mark playing eve non stop(closing on 150 million SP),have practically all the skills in the game plugged in,and all of the stuff i'm interested in training already done,so for quite a while now,i've been training stuff that i rarely(if ever)will use to keep the skill training running at maximum speed....I hardly log in much these days,that's how much eve is boring me these days,given all the focus towards the new player experience,and new players still complain even though the older vets had it much harder in the early days. So with that in mind,if someone wants to buy skills and train them right away,only to find themselves in the same position i am with nothing of interest left to train for,and it happening much sooner than it did for me(almost 8 year player remember),feel free to do so,but you'll only get bored of the game much more quickly than i did....I'm mainly waiting on what CCP does with the ambulation patch these days.

Luminos Durid is 4 Fite	Posted - 2011.01.07 06:57:00 - [131] Edited by: Luminos on 07/01/2011 06:57:39 Originally by: Skex Relbore Le Stuffz Re: Waiting - Lots of people learn how to wait out EvE's skill queues perfectly fine. They go play something fun instead. I've been doing that for years. You might not like WoW, but it's a strong example of why not making your player base wait for 5 months to play your game is a successful idea. __________ Don't mistake me pointing out bad arguments against selling skills with supporting the OP's idea though. I just dislike it when people think their argument is good, when it's either inconsitant with itself or beside the point entirely. For the idea that skill training contains choices, let's quantify that. Your example isn't really Cruiser vs Large {Weapon}. It's Cruiser vs Battleship. That is an actual choice; flying a battleship is a different gameplay experience from flying a cruiser. But there are a lot of choices that aren't. Cruiser V vs Medium {Weapon} V isn't a choice. I need both of those, so it's just a matter of order. They aren't really fun choices though. If you get it right, and skill into something you enjoy, great! But if you screw up and find out after a month and a half of waiting that Logistics ships just aren't your thing? HTFU and get an Xbox I suppose. Tippia's argument that extra skillpoints don't increase the amount of fun you're having works both ways. If you're going to enjoy EvE that enjoyment should be SP independent, but that also means that just giving out SP like halloween candy isn't actually a bad thing. Consider: Would EvE really suffer if instead of a slow, infinite grind, you were simply given X Million SP and allowed to specialize (or generalize) as you saw fit? Certain portions of the game would be locked off to you, or you wouldn't perform as well in certain roles. All the choice, none of the wait. It eliminates that starter character dead space while they're still waiting for fitting skills and {random nonsensical pre-req} V. So we keep the good choices of skill aquisition affecting gameplay, while ditching the unwanted effects of logging off to 'play', and ending up spending a month on a skill you don't actually want. This adresses the OP complaint, both by attempting to resolve the valid issue of a poorly implemented skill system and showing how selling SP doesn't really get the OP what they want. Which brings me nicely to the reply to your post(s). Arguing that CCP selling skills is a bad idea because waiting for skill is fun makes no sense (and is fairly silly). Similarly, stating that filling out your skill queue is somehow skillful in itself is wrong. EvEMon is more than happy to tell you exactly how to train to get whatever thing it is you want. Even the argument that knowing what you want out of EvE is skillful, well... take a swing by the "Why do Black Ops suck so much" threads to get an idea as to why that argument doesn't work very well either. Next Post (maybe?): Does using the skill queue to gate content serve a purpose? (Hint: No) PS: Stupid character limit. ______ I feel as though I could do anything. For example, stab this cheese knife into the Self-Taught Man's eye.
Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2011.01.07 07:02:00 - [132] I have been buying skills from Hedion University since I started playing EVE, how do you buy skills? Originally by: Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments <0>
Verdon Teraskun	Posted - 2011.01.07 07:22:00 - [133] Originally by: Serpents smile Lol, gdiaf OP. You don't get EVE. Get your flatulent ass back to wow. Bye. You don't get business. This very well may end up making more money than EVE does now. It's dying anyway, damn the consequences.
Keras Authion	Posted - 2011.01.07 08:28:00 - [134] Buying skills for real money is bullplop in my opinion. It's like you had a game of chess and the referee came and said "The other guy paid me to have a extra pawn and a extra turn at some point but it's ok since you can pay me too for the same benefits or play as you are. You could still win if you're good". At this point I'd say f this and left to look for something not so obvious gimmeyourmoneynao game. The game needs to be balanced without having out-of-game actions affect it. Improving your skills is important in these games (especially in eve since you have relatively little control of your character compared to other twitchier mmos), whether it's killing 10000 rats or waiting for the week to get a bonus. Different skills mean different abilites for players and much more variety. Now if everyone started with 10M SP we'd see an inflation on demand for anything you could fly easily and need another boost to make the characters more specialized again (the learning skills were shaved off less than a month ago saving a month for a good portion of the new characters, now we seem to need a faster start again). And there'd still be the "why did I train this, it's awful"-factor, even if would be easier to correct. At the moment when you finally get that long skill you have been waiting for the last few weeks flying it will be much more rewarding.
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.01.07 08:38:00 - [135] From a business point of view you probably can make it a wash - if SP cost as much in RL cash as you can acquire the SP ingame from subscription money. Though, the impact on the greater game are probably too far reaching and can't be quantified accurately (just look at some of the balancing threads for modules or weapons). Let's try that anyway: - smaller ship classes would be rendered obsolete over night (frigates, cruisers, low SP industrials,.. together with all the t1 meta 0 to 3 modules) together with the blueprints for them and the industry producing that stuff - content for low SP chars would be obsolete - attribute implants would be decreasing in demand - isk sunk into new clones would rise - demand for bigger ships and all the advanced stuff (T2) would rise - ragequits on forums would increase, as noobs loosing more stuff they can't afford to loose nor had the time to learn how to use properly - FOTM will be usable by a much wider audience and cause greater imbalances - playing solo (with Alts) will get even easier and crash some markets (get an army for invention/PI/datacore/mining) - entry barriers for things that rely on long training times will vanish and render plenty of markets unprofitable overnight (invention, building of T2/T3) - banned bots can be replaced instantly and with maximised skills have a bigger impact - the market for 'used' characters would implode over night - the long term goal of sticking with the game to convert gametime into SP will be gone which will translate into more fluctuating customer numbers - many new players will reach their 'endgame' within days playing Eve and CCP will earn as much as their SP are worth in subscription money, though as more of those noobs will fail at this stage CCP will loose revenue in the long run.. not even thinking about the 'bad' PR support Public Idea Tracker \| 24hr PLEX
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2011.01.07 09:46:00 - [136] Edited by: Cyaxares II on 07/01/2011 09:48:30 Originally by: Keras Authion Buying skills for real money is bullplop in my opinion. It's like you had a game of chess and the referee came and said "The other guy paid me to have a extra pawn and a extra turn at some point but it's ok since you can pay me too for the same benefits or play as you are. nah... it's more like playing Go and the referee saying "ok, so you're pretty new and the other player has been playing this game for a long time so let's give you 9 stones and 6.5 compensation points on top of that because you happen to play white" games have to be balanced to be meaningful (if necessary by using in-game advantages/handicaps and OOG compensation points that are applied to your final score) - that's a point that Go got right and that chess lacks.
Keras Authion Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2011.01.07 11:33:00 - [137] Quote: nah... it's more like playing Go and the referee saying "ok, so you're pretty new and the other player has been playing this game for a long time so let's give you 9 stones and 6.5 compensation points on top of that because you happen to play white" games have to be balanced to be meaningful (if necessary by using in-game advantages/handicaps and OOG compensation points that are applied to your final score) - that's a point that Go got right and that chess lacks. It's true that it can balance the playing field between a veteran and a newer player, but the system is still there between two players of the same age. "You both are about the same level, but the other guy gets 3 stones because he paid me" will not be something people like to hear. And I'd rather lose to a player that has been playing several years earning their power rather than just some guy that has the willingness to spend more RL money. Skill buying could raise the bar to enter New Eden since "you have to pay to be of any use", which would still not be true of course. And since there would be more people able to get those nice ships that corporations are looking for, the ones not willing to pay for skills will be left even further behind. Plus the requirements for the pilots being recruited could jump up when there's a reasonable supply of the next best thing.
Rian O'Shea Stratos Manufacturing and Logistics	Posted - 2011.01.07 13:49:00 - [138] I wonder how many CCP alts are spamming/trolling this thread? --- The whole problem with the universe is that fools and fanatics are always certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubt.
Yazus Kor Kotharat Logistics	Posted - 2011.01.07 14:07:00 - [139] Originally by: Pocket Ace5 Drivel Post with your main, so we can grief you back to WoW. "Beware, you who seek first and final principles, for you are trampling the garden of an angry God and he awaits you just beyond the last theorem."
Jack Paladin Solar Storm Sev3rance	Posted - 2011.01.07 14:11:00 - [140] Edited by: Jack Paladin on 07/01/2011 14:11:43 Originally by: Reign Down I hope this never ever happens to EVE...would ruin it completely. nuff said

Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.07 14:44:00 - [141] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire That is because some of us don't have time but would really love to short circuit the process and enjoy the game. Having said that, some of us, maybe specifically, I, don't mind injecting liquidity into my character to get things sorted fast. You really would be better off playing a game that you could level quickly in having that kind of attitude. At least with the game as it is you can still train regardless of how much time you have and you still won't have any problems with isk thanks to PLEX. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire It doesn't matter how one gets there, what matters is one gets there. You sound like someone that would be quite happy for someone else to develop your character for you. You also sound like someone that will easily get bored with this game. Ever played a character in a solo game and used a cheat and given yourself loads of ingame currency or used god mode. In both cases the games are interseting for a very short time, until you realise that you have made the game effectively worthless.
Diesel47	Posted - 2011.01.07 14:50:00 - [142] This idea sucks so bad.
Skex Relbore Gallente Red Federation	Posted - 2011.01.07 15:38:00 - [143] Originally by: Luminos Snipped WoT to make room for new WoT Re:re: waiting. That's a choice people make they don't have to. There is plenty of fun stuff they can do while waiting for new skills to train. And actually making your player base wait for 5 months to play certain parts of your game is a successful idea. In fact it's the very principle that drives persistent world gaming. If it takes longer to achieve a goal a subscriber has to pay for a longer time, further the more time someone invests in that goal/game the more emotionally connected they become to it. That's why people play MMOs for years rather than the few weeks that a stand alone title holds their attention. Honestly if you can't find something to do with skills you can learn in just a few hours you're not going to be better at finding things to do after buying a few million SP either. Choice's. No I meant exactly what I said. It's not a theoretical choice either it's the exact choice I had to make a few days ago (well save that I'm working on Large Hybrids not Projectiles). Actually the question was to prioritize large guns, Sentry drones or T2 Cruisers. Now in 3 months it won't matter that much because I'll have all 3 but in the mean time there are consequences to my choice. Another example would be this. I spent the majority of the 1st year of this characters existence working on support skills including any prerequisites for any ships/modules that I could see wanting for the foreseeable future (pretty much everything but capital skills) I focused my attributes around it and had to plan and live/work with the consequences of that choice. I have a buddy who didn't so broadly spec and spent his time just training the skills that would help him immediately. Each of those choices had consequences. He was able to start using T2 ships much earlier than I was and for a large amount of time he had better offensive skills than I did. The trade off was that my character has a broader skill set and now as I add ship command skills I'll be ready to train those ships without having to worry about any non-per/will prereq's. Oh and to be clear here. I never said that waiting for skills to complete was fun. Not every part of an activity has to be fun for it to be rewarding. I said it was a big and important part of the game. It forces players to make real choices in how to build their characters that have consequences both in the long and short term. Buying skill points would completely obliterate that aspect of game play it would minimize the consequences of those choices to the point of triviality. "oh I spent the last month training large guns but the corp I want to join wants a logi pilot guess I made the wrong call, Oh wait let me grab my credit card and drop 35 bucks to buy Amarr Cruiser 5". And yes the game really would suffer if people were simply handed a pool of SP sufficient to let them specialize into what ever role they want instantly. Because people would never form an attachment to the game. They'd log in try it out a couple times and then either get bored or ragequit the first time something about the game ****ed them off. Fun is not the sole requirement for a good game mechanic particularly when you are looking to generate retention. Fun is a factor but all persistent worlds have core aspects of gameplay (and frankly require them) that are not fun. Grinding is never fun, Sure an encounter might be interesting and fun the first few times but by the 10th it's getting stale and old by the 100th its simply monotonous. Now that doesn't mean people can't or don't have fun grinding a boring activity can be made tolerable and perhaps even fun when done with company. It can be tolerable when it leads to a longer term goal (leveling up, getting access to new content) but it isn't likely to be fun on its own. without suffering you can not know true joy, without the wait you cannot know satisfaction. /agree about the character limit
Veliria	Posted - 2011.01.07 15:57:00 - [144] Money should never replace skill. By allowing this, a lot of player would be heavily disadvantaged by others who are willing to throws hundreds at getting fast cheap tickets to all sorts of pilots. Time in EVE would become worthless and you'd end up with a few guys on top with far too much money to spend and no skill but still raping everything. Once money directly affects what a character can do, everything else just fades into the background. Things taking time and risk/reward is a great filter in EVE, weeding out lots of people who would otherwise just buy, whine or powerlevel their way to the top. The character bazaar is different because there the characters are set in stone with all the baggage that comes with it such as standings.
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2011.01.07 16:19:00 - [145] Edited by: Cyaxares II on 07/01/2011 16:23:15 Edited by: Cyaxares II on 07/01/2011 16:22:01 Originally by: Skex Relbore And actually making your player base wait for 5 months to play certain parts of your game is a successful idea. yes, it is but it doesn't scale well as the game matures. at some point too many players will just turn away without getting bound to your game in the first place; I have had my fair share of teaching newbies and after giving them an honest answer to the "when can I fly <cool ship>?" question you can usually spend the next few days slowly trying to help them overcome their "I am never going to catch up" frustration. I think it is important for attracting new customers to keep the time a new player needs to get into a cool & useful ship about constant, even as the the SP requirements for ships that are considered cool & useful keep increasing. The Cerebral Accelerator is a nice example how to achieve this without making (too) many old players feel their own training times have somehow been invalidated. (Blizzard reducing the XP amount from level 70-80 by 20% once Cataclysm was released and the level cap increased to 85 is a similar example) Originally by: Skex Relbore Honestly if you can't find something to do with skills you can learn in just a few hours you're not going to be better at finding things to do after buying a few million SP either. not entirely true - e.g. I really like healing/support roles (healer > tank > ranged > rogue/thief > melee in general MMO terms). Without training for T2 cruisers I won't be able to fill my preferred role at all (try getting into a logistics squad in an Exequror^^) and no amount of "but you can tackle" is going to make change this. Originally by: Skex Relbore Buying skill points would completely obliterate that aspect of game play it would minimize the consequences of those choices to the point of triviality. I cannot imagine CCP selling SP directly (other than in the form of allowing character transfers) - I would expect them to sell learning speed bonuses so the tough choices would be made easier but not removed completely. A "increase your training speed by 50% for 1 week" boost sold for 1/<n> PLEX would probably result in a lively debates about "what does it really change if I have to wait 20 or 30 days for racial cruiser V to finish?" and far less outright rejection than "flat amount of SP for $". edit: Quote: Money should never replace skill. how about: "in-game skills should never replace player skill"?
Mashie Saldana Minmatar Veto Corp	Posted - 2011.01.07 16:22:00 - [146] Originally by: Forum Guy Originally by: Jenny Spitfire It doesn't matter how one gets there, what matters is one gets there. You sound like someone that would be quite happy for someone else to develop your character for you. You also sound like someone that will easily get bored with this game. Considering Jenny has changed owner a few times that is exactly what has happened.
Jack Paladin Solar Storm Sev3rance	Posted - 2011.01.07 16:42:00 - [147] EVE is all about the journey. It is about developing your OWN character, not buying it. Exploring the different paths at your own pace and own risk. Enduring the journey in the bad times and enjoying the rewards during the good times. Buying your skills means you miss out on all this. I guess one could say it would be a form of cheating.
Guttripper Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2011.01.07 16:45:00 - [148] And people were clamoring to get the learning skills removed so people can get into the meat of the game faster... Now people want to purchase skills to get into the meat of the game even faster that current practices! Give players an inch and they want the whole damn mile!!! I wonder what the next "brilliant" idea will appear on these forums to make the new player experience even more simplistic in nature.
Jack Paladin Solar Storm Sev3rance	Posted - 2011.01.07 16:49:00 - [149] Originally by: Guttripper I wonder what the next "brilliant" idea will appear on these forums to make the new player experience even more simplistic in nature. Bare with me ..... what if ..... all new pilots ..... started with +10 implants to speed up learning?
Luminos Durid is 4 Fite	Posted - 2011.01.07 16:59:00 - [150] Originally by: Skex Relbore Oh and to be clear here. I never said that waiting for skills to complete was fun. Originally by: Skex Relbore ...then there is the anticipation while you wait for the skills to complete the impatience while waiting and finally the reward once it comes through. which is more gratifying because of the anticipation. ... without suffering you can not know true joy, without the wait you cannot know satisfaction. Yes, you did. ________ The waiting 'goal' used to drive MMO gaming. Lots of things in EvE make sense when you consider the game was first put onto paper in the days of UO and EQ. But ask Turbine how badly their games are doing now that you can buy XP buffs, and get half the game a la carte. Or ask Arenanet how much they've suffered from all but completely removing skilling up. Games which put content behind huge grind walls are dying out. Grinding for shiny hats is as big as it ever was, but developers are shying away from building things their players may never see. There is a point to the idea that an MMO would die off in a matter of weeks if you removed the skill progression carrot; the game is horrible, and can only keep people with periodic "You da man now, dawg!" congratulation noises. I mostly agree with you on the few million vs many million enjoyment of the game. I think there are still too many 'no brainer' skills in the game (see: fitting skills) which don't represent a real choice for players, but simply a time sink. But overall, once you're in the type of ship you want to fly you don't get more enjoyment out of it as your SP go up. I realize that the skill you put in your training queue was Large Hybrid, but the choice here wasn't to put those weapons on your cruiser as opposed to say HAMs, or Capital Beam Lasers. By inference, if you are focusing on Large {weapon}, you are also focusing on battleship gameplay. Sentry drones represent even less of a real choice, as those can often be used in both cruisers and battleships. A choice in the skill system represents something that will change the way you play, and for the example you presented the difference is the type of ship hull you're flying; thus, my statement of it being cruiser vs. battleship. The difference between you and your friend is a good example of skill choice. And I definitely want to keep the give and take of those decisions in game. A lot of other games handle this through providing a number of "SP" allowing you to choose some abilities, without being able to do everything (see: WoW talent trees, or Modern Warfare's Perk system). Is that necessarily the way to go with EvE? Meh, maybe. Especially when you have to consider the idea of how to handle somebody who has changed their mind on what they want to have. But as I've been getting at, putting these decisions behind a month long wait isn't a great idea either. (Skipping over the "Buy Amarr Cruiser" thing; as I've said, I'm not a fan of the OP's idea either.) Attachment to the game: This reflects really poorly on EvE as a game. As I said earlier, if your game can only keep people because of the continual 'Skinner Box' carrot you put in, you've failed at game design. Progress Quest was satire, not a AAA title. Fun should be what gets people into the game, and what keeps them there. You are right in that fun doesn't need to be the primary focus of every gameplay element; fun should be a requirement for any gameplay element though (see: Why PI is crap). Your example of the skill path you took vs. your friend is a good example of this. The skill training itself isn't fun, but the engagement of choosing a gameplay path and working out your place in EvE is. Again with the character limit. :( ______ I feel as though I could do anything. For example, stab this cheese knife into the Self-Taught Man's eye.

uberaltscout	Posted - 2011.01.07 17:00:00 - [151] you can already buy skills it's called the character bazaar - I am an alt.
Joss56 Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2011.01.07 17:03:00 - [152] Originally by: Guttripper I wonder what the next "brilliant" idea will appear on these forums to make the new player experience even more simplistic in nature. How about making BS's the nightmare of any 3 or 4 gang cruiser/bc's? How about giving suicide gankers -10 SS for 1 month after their crime and 0isk insureance reimboursement How about take of the game combat probes How about fix rails? And ships using them? ________________________________________________ "You do realise you live on a globe, right? And that there places outside the USA/UK?"
Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.07 17:04:00 - [153] Originally by: Guttripper And people were clamoring to get the learning skills removed so people can get into the meat of the game faster... Now people want to purchase skills to get into the meat of the game even faster that current practices! See you are still whining about the removal of the learning skills. Originally by: Guttripper Give players an inch and they want the whole damn mile!!! Actually as most people seem to be against paying for sp, it makes that well known quote that you used pretty empty.
Skex Relbore Gallente Red Federation	Posted - 2011.01.07 18:43:00 - [154] Edited by: Skex Relbore on 07/01/2011 18:44:55 Originally by: Luminos Originally by: Skex Relbore without suffering you can not know true joy, without the wait you cannot know satisfaction. Yes, you did. <Snipped rest to make room for my WOT> Satisfaction /= fun Rewarding /= fun Real world example warning: there was very little about Marine Bootcamp that was fun. In fact there was a hell of a lot about it that was damned right miserable. But completing it was rewarding and satisfying. Running and physical training are seldom fun but the rewards are satisfying. Now I don't entirely disagree with your point on some of the time sinks being too severe in this game. And over time CCP will have to address this (as I stated before they kind of are). Strategically lowering certain prerequisites could do that without completely obliterating the existing system. As to your argument that I was choosing between Battleships and cruisers to some extent that is accurate (though working on T2 hybrids also has bleed over into my cruiser performance) I view it more as deferring T2 cruisers for a while in order to maximize my battleship performance. ( In end it's actually irrelevant because I can still fly T1 cruisers while training those Battleship skills just like I could continue to fly BS's had I chosen instead to train Racial Cruiser 5 first. It's a choice and there is a consequence or deferring the time when I can use the ability in question (T2 large guns or T2 cruiser) This ignores the question of which racial cruiser to choose. Should I go Gal to get the Ishtar and Arazu or Mini for the Vega and scimatar or Amarr for the Guardian and Zealot(actually the Zealot would require a few days additional getting medium lazer skills). Hell had I chosen to differently I could have probably gotten both Minmatar and Amarr T2 cruisers trained in the time I've spent just getting T2 heavy drones. As far as the argument of SP not leading to additional enjoyment once you are in it well that's debatable. There is after all a difference between having the SP to sit in a ship and having the SP to actually use it effectively. This is where those fitting skills you see as nothing but times sinks come in. Investing time in those skills allows one to use fits that wouldn't work for people with lower support skills. There are fits that simply require AWU5 and won't work with AWU4 there are fits that will work with Shield Upgrades 5 but not 4. People who choose to defer getting those skills to 5 are forgoing the ability to use those fits in exchange for what ever capability they spend their time gaining instead. Getting people attached to their characters is a great bit of game design (if your goal is long term retention) Also I never said that fun isn't important but lots of things are fun that I don't want to keep doing for months on end. Locking content behind time sinks and other barriers to entry are a great way of keeping players busy and engaged. They throttle the rate at which players chew through content giving developers time to come up with new stuff to sate the unending appetite of their hardcore base. Yes there has to be fun involved but there needs to be some challenge as well. Since everything is for sale in EVE and anyone can pretty much go anywhere and do anything in EVE. the only gatekeeper to content is the skill system. The only other limitation is isk and frankly for the most part (save for station trading) the ability make it is largely tied to SP as well. If you let people instantly spec what ever they want low/nul would be nothing but Supercaps, HIC's and Cyno alts in Recons and Hi-sec would be full of Marauders, Macharials, freighters and some Arty Maelstrom's to suicide the Freighters. Well save for all the bots in hulks/orcas. Soon enough it would be nothing but the best of each hull. At which point we might as well be playing an arcade game or FPS. Take the work/time out of the process and you will end up with a limited homogenized set of optimized builds.
Luminos Durid is 4 Fite	Posted - 2011.01.07 21:13:00 - [155] Skex, I think we're mostly agreed on the Cruiser/Hybrid choice thing. I needed to reword it to have the choice make more sense in the comparison I was making, but I'm on the same page as far as the ideas behind what drives your choice there and the outcomes. Be it ship vs weapon, or racial choice... whatever. I maintain that you did basically compare skill training to Christmas EvE (pun only partially intended ). Fitting skills for the most part fit into my category of "If any sensible player has to do it, and it isn't fun, get rid of it." Manufacturing/Trade players don't need those, but those skill trees are an entirely other animal to rant about. Anybody who wants to be out and about pewpewing something will need fitting skills to 5. You might never touch lasers. You might never equip a MWD, target painter, EANM or Nanofibers. You're never required to deploy Heavy Drones, start your own Corp or anchor a secure can. But you will have your fitting skills maxed. And no matter how rewarding the "Skill Training Complete" notificaiton is, the act of training a skill isn't fun. That's half the point; you don't even need to be logged in to do it. If the higher fitting need stuff came with a tradeoff, you could say there was a choice involved. But a tech 2 turret is better than Meta 0 in every way, so there's no reason not to get AWU V. It's a 'choice' only in that I can choose to get it now, or later. But the idea of not getting isn't a sensible proposition. You mention homogenized builds; don't get confused here, the builds exist but the players are just waiting for the "Skill Training Complete." ding. (New content vs. Hardcore Base)/(Content Gates)/(Fun with 0 SP): These all kind of roll into the same topic of "What's fun about EvE? Bear in mind the 'hardcore' base of most games runs about 5-10% of the subscription total. Which means that most people aren't chewing through content like starved lions. They're having fun playing the game (as Tippia suggested people should do with EvE). If EvE really wants to retain players, making the day to day play entertaining seems like a great place to start. That means having fun in a role regardless of what my SP total is. Which brings us to content gates. There shouldn't be any (well, almost.. but I'll get to that). Not in EvE anyway. They make sense when you have noob zones, or a story to tell... but EvE has neither of those things. Its draw is supposed to be the sandbox, not following a trail of developer laid out breadcrumbs. I'm hoping Sansha invasions are a step towards this, but we'll have to wait and see. It might seem weird at first, but look at the risk reward of L1 vs L4 missions. Currently, L1s are balanced for somebody with basically no SP as they're meant to be done within minutes of starting EvE. L4s are based around having much more SP, and probably a heavily T2 fitted ship. But there really isn't any reason that L4s based around having a few hundred thousand SP couldn't exist. There's no particular reason you can't enter the game as a battleship pilot, and have to work your way towards frigates later in the game. Gearing the skill system towards getting players into a ship they will enjoy piloting quickly, and then giving them meaningful skill distribution and advancement choices is where CCP should be looking with the skill system. Frigates are a pretty well done example of how to do this. Naturally, you can pilot a frigate right from the word go. And save for Stealth Bombers, there really isn't anything a T2 frigate can do that a T1 can't. They're more specialized, but there's no extra functionality. So the idea of gating a specialization behind a 'get used to piloting the basic ship, then pick what you really want to do' makes sense. On the other hand, requiring Small Hybrid V in order to get Large Hybrid Specialization... that's just dumb. Tech 2 is a poorly done gate as well, but hey... look at that, character limi ______ I feel as though I could do anything. For example, stab this cheese knife into the Self-Taught Man's eye.
Sader Rykane Amarr Midnight Sentinels Midnight Space Syndicate	Posted - 2011.01.07 21:17:00 - [156] This thread got to 6 pages before I noticed it? Clearly my brains "Stupid" filter is working better than I could have ever hoped.
Keta Fraal Nul and Booleans	Posted - 2011.01.07 21:47:00 - [157] Originally by: Sader Rykane This thread got to 6 pages before I noticed it? Clearly my brains "Stupid" filter is working better than I could have ever hoped. Need I remind you that you posted. Welcome to the stupid club. --------------------------------------- Completely ignore any whining that is not toilet orientated.
xanderh Gallente Vent Mob Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2011.01.07 22:40:00 - [158] A very good reason not to implement this is because there's very few that want this change, and a lot that don't. The majority of the people ingame does not want this change. A lot of the people I talked to about this change didn't want this because microtransactions hurts almost every single game that introduces them. It gives rich people an advantage over less rich people, and makes a lot of things less rewarding. The feeling when you can suddenly fly a 150 million isk ship is very nice, and you know you will do better in some areas. And when you play around in eft, and update your skills, and find out that a really nice fit is now Cap stable, that's just great. Don't take that sort of thing out. And buying skills CAN kill the game. In the first few months ccp might see more money coming in from the extra PLEX being sold, but after a while people will lose interest, as they have all skills, and they don't know what the next step is. There is nothing guiding them towards the next ship, as they already have all skills, and skills are a great guide towards the next ship.
Skex Relbore Gallente Red Federation	Posted - 2011.01.07 23:02:00 - [159] Originally by: Luminos <sniped for character limiter Ok so looking through your posting history it's obvious that this is something that's bugged you for some time. Let me try and go down this again. Yes everyone who operates a ship will eventually want their basic fitting skills to 5. but you don't need them there to be effective you just need them for certain fits. And getting AWU5 now or later is a major choice that has consequences because that 19+ days of training could get several lower ranked skills to 5 and dozens to 4. The current skill system encourages people to be more creative when it comes to ship choices. Sure there are flavor of the month fits but if you don't have the skills for that particular fit then you have to work with what you are skilled for while you then decide to either start working towards the FOTM or just wait for the FOTM to come your way. Another real game example it's about a 4 day difference for me between training T2 large blasters and T2 Large Auto's Basically bump my Med Auto spec to 4 and train the first 4 levels of Large Projectiles to even it up. And yeah eventually I do plan on having both. But the decisions I make now determine when I'll have them each trained. One choice would quickly give me the FOTM Macharial as an option. The other choice gives me the close up face melting of my Gal BS's and satisfies my personal OCD of being able to fully T2 fit the ships I fly regularly. And yeah skill training is a bit like getting a new present on Xmas. As to gates. Yeah lets do look at frigates. Sure you can fly pretty much every frigate from day one. But there is a huge difference between the performance of a fully T1 fit frigate with minimal skills/fitting and otherwise. and that same frig with a full T2 fit and good support skills. They are essentially different ships. The same goes for every T1 ship in the game. The ability to push through some of those long trains and deffer gratification can be the difference between victory and defeat in any given encounter. Someone who decided to spend the extra 10 days or so to train small gun spec to 5 has a slight but very real advantage against someone who spent that 10 days training T2 medium guns instead. Right there in that moment if they are both flying frigates a very real consequence for that choice manifests. Timing matters as well if one of those pilots decided that he'd prefer to max his fitting skills and the other weaponry skills each would have certain advantages and disadvantages in the fight that would effect the final outcome. You are allowing your frustration with the fact that content is locked outside of your reach blind you to the very real consequences of changing said system. Right now not everyone flys Drakes because not everyone has the skills to make them work. For instance while I can fly a drake and could tank one about as well as anyone I don't have decent missile skills so I'm gonna fly a Cane or one of the Gal BC if I need a BC. My past choices in skills determine my current choices in ships. Everyone who plays the game has to make those choices. If it weren't for the skills system then everyone would end with identical characters flying essentially identical ships. Anyone who didn't would have to biomass and recreate their characters if they wanted to be able to compete. If the FOTM changed for some reason pretty much everyone would have to biomas and start again with what ever the new build is. You see gates and barriers as bad game design because you don't find them fun. I see them as good game design because they lead to challenge and variety. Further I say that the problem is in your attitude and expectations. You think that once you have a certain ship you'll start having fun. I'm telling you that if you can't have fun in the T1 variant with low skills you probably don't have the right mindset for this game. Oh yeah and the RR domi does the healer role perfectly fine and it's T1
Aurillea Jade	Posted - 2011.01.07 23:13:00 - [160] Originally by: Wiki Leaks Originally by: Serpents smile You don't get EVE. Standard unquantifiable answer. The simple fact remains, nobody knows a good reason why not to sell skills directly, they always end up at this common back stop excuse. Many people will turn up and claim to know a good reason, then spout out their "good" reason, only for it to have no basis in reality, the legion of secret millionaires who are going to flood eve with supertitan pilots being their very favourite. Simply though, they have no idea, but they do know they fear change. Fear "Change"? You sound like another Idiot Obama Democratic Lover. You Obviously believe you are "Entitled" to something you haven't worked for. This is the ipitome of Failure and is why America is spiraling down the Sh*tter, and is the same reason that like everyone else has mentioned, would ruin Eve. You and the OP need to grow a pair, roll up your sleeves and Contribute to the community instead of trying to either Buy it or Mooch off of it. So Say we all!

Sader Rykane Amarr Midnight Sentinels Midnight Space Syndicate	Posted - 2011.01.07 23:24:00 - [161] Originally by: Keta Fraal Originally by: Sader Rykane This thread got to 6 pages before I noticed it? Clearly my brains "Stupid" filter is working better than I could have ever hoped. Need I remind you that you posted. Welcome to the stupid club. As stated before, my filter is working better than expected, but that doesn't mean its perfect.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2011.01.07 23:52:00 - [162] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 07/01/2011 23:52:33 Originally by: Forum Guy You really would be better off playing a game that you could level quickly in having that kind of attitude. At least with the game as it is you can still train regardless of how much time you have and you still won't have any problems with isk thanks to PLEX. You sound like someone that would be quite happy for someone else to develop your character for you. You also sound like someone that will easily get bored with this game. Ever played a character in a solo game and used a cheat and given yourself loads of ingame currency or used god mode. In both cases the games are interseting for a very short time, until you realise that you have made the game effectively worthless. Forum Guy, I am guilty as charged! I have always been living life on the fast lane and I am only interested in achieving goals fast. I am not really bothered by how it is done as long as it is legal. If X money can speed up the process by Y time and if cost is not a matter then do it. For some players, the problem is getting bored of lack of toys. If we get to buy new toys all the time, we will cream all over due to ecstatic happiness. Also the game can never run out of toys because the developers are always producing new toys. Not mentioning, there are plenty of toys around, so we money can buy them then by all means, do it. If we can't achieve those goals fast enough, we'll get bored and we'll end up leaving the game. CCP ends up losing players. Also, when we buy skill points and game money, we also help to pay CCP's employees wages, mortgages, food, beer and feed their children. I cannot see any problem with that. Not forgetting, we are also helping Iceland. Also using dollars to buy virtual items not only helps CCP but also us the players to save time and do what we like - go have fun. Imagine this, login, buy items, go kill something. Plus side, don't have to go hunt for in-game bargains. Just buy them all in a station. Honestly, I see no problem with that other than poorer players saying they have no money to buy in-game items. But wait ..., they can always make in-game money fast to buy items. Maybe they are poor in real life but they are definitely rich in game time. We on the other hand are poor in game time and having the opportunity to short circuit the process helps us and definitely helps CCP. If you all are lucky, you will have more market participants and also engagements because players just buy items and go fight. Everyone wins. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Go vote! Put voice for silent majority. LOVE PVP, HATE grief
Luminos Durid is 4 Fite	Posted - 2011.01.08 06:15:00 - [163] Originally by: Skex Relbore Ok so looking through your posting history it's obvious that this is something that's bugged you for some time. It's like having my own little stalker. But yeah, EvE's skill system has bugged me since... 2004? Dunno, got my first trial account somewhere in there. RTS games have a good analogy for this. Since basically the beginning, the RTS has had two sides to its learning curve. Single player is heavily gated: units are handed out usually one at a time, and missions (if well designed) will cater towards teaching you the ins and outs of that unit before moving you on to the next one. And it keeps you from just building a million nukes every mission. The multiplayer side on the other hand doesn't have that option. All the units need to be available in order to keep the playing field even. Tech trees are usually still there to limit high end units, but this is only possible because a RTS match is a blank slate each time. EvE doesn't really have a 'RTS Single Player' environment. Mission running is fairly close in that L1-L4 missions are generally balanced around steadily advancing support skills, but just ask anybody who's accidentally shot a ninja what they think of how close that simulates a single player environment. For no reason I can discern EvE dumps you in the deep end of PvP, and then restricts your access to tools in order to.... ? The homogenity of fits you're worried about is a good thing, it points out the weaknesses in ship design and balance. That people aren't exclusively flying Drakes because not everybody has had time to get T2 HAMs isn't something CCP should be proud of. But that's not to argue that everybody necessarily needs to be able to fly every ship, simply that (as you've stated as well), there's too much of a time sink involved in developing your pilot to a given role. So the 'very real consequences' of changing the skill system? Making EvE better. ______ I feel as though I could do anything. For example, stab this cheese knife into the Self-Taught Man's eye.
Miagi Sans Amarr PURgE-Corp PURgE Alliance	Posted - 2011.01.08 08:25:00 - [164] It would ruin game. Everyone would just buy skills to a carrier or other cap ship. No reason to fly a bc or hac or anything. No frigs, no battleships, nothing. The population would be so top heavy in ships, you might as well just destroy all others. The economy for every small/medium module/hull/ammo would be decimated. Prices for Large parts and xlarge/cap parts would skyrocket. THere would be hardly any money sinks. Then all these pilots who would have thought they bought the "I win" button would get bored, or realize they are now the same as everyone else, or get ganked and rage cause they just got beat up by another cap. Large BS and caps would be the new frigs and cruisers of the game. In essence you destroy everythng you hold dear about the game.
Your Client	Posted - 2011.01.08 10:00:00 - [165] This thread is poo. No one wants to use their real life money to INSTANTLY gain advantage in a game. Atleast let someone gain the skill points over years of hard work creating that character... THEN pay you can pay them with a few ISK. Works as intended. No need to change.
Mei Aijin	Posted - 2011.01.08 11:40:00 - [166] The one point that the OP is failing to see, IMHO and no offense intended, is that the monthly fee is not just paying for your skill progression. You are supposed to be playing the game (Missioning, Mining, Trading, Manufacturing, Researching, Leading or PVP'ing) while you are advancing your skills. EVE Online's skill system based on real time is what makes EVE great!! It also makes the term "End Game" non existant in EVE.
Joss56 Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2011.01.08 11:48:00 - [167] Edited by: Joss56 on 08/01/2011 11:51:58 Originally by: Mei Aijin The one point that the OP is failing to see, IMHO and no offense intended, is that the monthly fee is not just paying for your skill progression. You are supposed to be playing the game (Missioning, Mining, Trading, Manufacturing, Researching, Leading or PVP'ing) while you are advancing your skills. Sorry but this is pretty false, to play eve all you have to do is fill your skills que. This is how long you need to be connected until you get enough skills to realy play the game. I would like to see you people char skills related to your real conected time (while training), we could have lots of surprises here. By the way i would like to see this happen, only train while your char is conected, this would be awesome. ________________________________________________ "You do realise you live on a globe, right? And that there places outside the USA/UK?"
Horizonist Yulai Guard 2nd Fleet Yulai Federation	Posted - 2011.01.08 11:56:00 - [168] Yes, please CCP do this! Do it so that all the ultrarich superalliances can create 2-3 alts per member, instantly skill them for maximum Nyx efficiency, and unleash supercap blobs of truly epic proportions. Bring the already broken blob system to perfection! Remove all balance from the game! If this ever happens, I will seriously consider quitting Eve.
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2011.01.08 12:03:00 - [169] Originally by: Horizonist If this ever happens, I will seriously consider quitting Eve. bolded the part that is important to CCP decision makers
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.01.08 12:04:00 - [170] Originally by: Joss56 This is how long you need to be connected until you get enough skills to realy play the game. àand there is the key problem: the assumption that to "really play the game", you have to have "enough skills". What is this "game" you refer to ù what does it consist of? What separates "really playing" the game from "not really playing" it? What is "enough skills" and how is this determined? All of this are just things you've defined for yourself, not something the game hands to you. Changing the game does not "fix" any of these issues, since they are issues with your approach to the game, not with the game itself. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki

Marchocias Snatch Victory	Posted - 2011.01.08 12:43:00 - [171] Edited by: Marchocias on 08/01/2011 12:44:25 Originally by: Cyaxares II Originally by: Horizonist If this ever happens, I will seriously consider quitting Eve. bolded the part that is important to CCP decision makers Personally I'd prefer it not to be possible to buy ISK via any method, nor exchange characters, as I don't think either of those services are generally in the interests of a fair and balanced game. I do however understand why such services are about: so CCP can limit the damaging side effects that result from RMT and account-sharing (which will always happen). A microtransaction like "skills for real money", would not be limiting the damage from another method of illegally achieving the same thing. There is currently no way of getting skills, other than waiting (and in the case of the character bazaar, you're still getting characters that SOMEONE has waited for). Adding "skills for money" isn't fixing anything - its just making the game easier for children who's mummy and daddy spoil them rotten, or people with more money than sense. Anyway, after playing for many years, with many accounts, and having tried most of the stuff available in the game (some parts of it don't interest me so I haven't tried them), I've been considering quitting the game anyway, because its just not as fun for me as it used to be. The things that keeps me here are that I enjoy the market, I like a bit of good PvP, and the I've made friends here. I believe there are a lot of long time players who are in a similar position to myself, who continue to play the game just because its there, but who are not as interested as they used to be. I know many people who disappear for months at a time before reappearing. This kind of change would be for me (and many others) the straw that breaks the camels back. I would have to conclude that the game simply isn't going in the right direction and actually quit rather than considering it. This isn't "proof" of the OPs idea being bad - its simply a personal analysis which disagrees, and points out that a great many other people maintain the same position as me. If CCP reckon more people would join than quit due to this change, I can honestly see this actually happening, but frankly I dont think this would appeal to that many people. ---- I belong to Silent Ninja (Hopefully that should cover it).
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2011.01.08 12:51:00 - [172] Edited by: Cyaxares II on 08/01/2011 12:51:11 Originally by: Marchocias This isn't "proof" of the OPs idea being bad - its simply a personal analysis which disagrees, and points out that a great many other people maintain the same position as me. If CCP reckon more people would join than quit due to this change, I can honestly see this actually happening, but frankly I dont think this would appeal to that many people. just considered it to be interesting that you (as a person who cares enough about this topic to post here - which probably makes you pretty "hardcore" when compared to the other 90% of EVE subscribers) are not confident that you really would quit if the most extreme form of SP for money would be introduced by CCP.
ZenSun Total Mayhem. Northern Coalition.	Posted - 2011.01.08 13:04:00 - [173] Nerf falcons, they keep taking away my locking box ffs!
Guttripper Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2011.01.08 16:00:00 - [174] Originally by: Forum Guy See you are still whining about the removal of the learning skills. Yep - since I am now training slower after putting in the time across my accounts, I am jaded about the whole affair. Instead of CCP using a scalpel on the situation, they used a sledgehammer. I would have been perfectly comfortable with +10 to all attributes while leaving the actual Learning skill as the modifier, but alas, too late now. As for feeling I used a familiar quote poorly, in the context of reading this thread, the floodgates to bring faster "rewards" to players have been breached in my opinion. So while the learning skills were a barrier between those sticking through the game through thick and thin versus those that want it now, other similar complaint threads with enough push might just make CCP change their game. Besides this thread, there is this thread discussing condensing core skills to small learning time amounts. Include the old learning skill threads and the similar theme is people value their time. So to play devil's advocate, I am going to agree with the original poster in this thread and paraphrase old pro-learning skill removal answers: "Players should not be sitting in station, spinning their ships, waiting for skills to finish training." - Players able to use real life money to inject skill points could avoid this situation and get into the meat and potatoes of the game. Instead of veterans in terms of total skill points blasting newbies in terms of no skill points flying frigates, veterans can be taking on more players with similar style ships. Think of the pew pew!!! "Veterans are afraid of newbies catching up to them in total skill points." - Since each and every skill is capped at level five, given enough time past, both players would be on even grounds. But the ability to buy skill points would shorten the gap. "The means of adding skill points is already there!" - When players got the 100,000 skill point bonus for the extended server down time, those points magically appeared out of nowhere. Counter that if the server was accessible, then these points would have been gained -- people were still training _and_ got the bonus points. So convert real life money into real life time which is then converted into trained skill points and just add it to the character. "I had family and friends leave the game due to training skills." - People not familiar with the game are not interested in slowly training frigates into cruisers to finally get to battleships. Add all the support skills, and people shy away from the game. But line CCP's pockets with some cold, hard cash and gramps can be pew pewing youngin's for his 80th b-day while lost in visions of past real life war heroics!!! "CCP is a business to make money first and foremost." - If there are people that want to drop what they perceive as pocket change into CCP's coffers to get a jump start, then why should CCP worry about cranky, old vets complaining? The option to train skills normally will still be available _and_ they still got the benefit of using their skills longer than Daddy Warbucks just starting out. "Most people are against the idea." - steps off his soapbox a moment... Most people are against bots and macros too and perceives CCP doing nothing about that infraction. Alright, I can't think of a sarcastic remark for that last quote. puts down his devil horns and steps back.
Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.08 16:21:00 - [175] Originally by: Guttripper "The means of adding skill points is already there!" - When players got the 100,000 skill point bonus for the extended server down time, those points magically appeared out of nowhere. Counter that if the server was accessible, then these points would have been gained -- people were still training _and_ got the bonus points. So convert real life money into real life time which is then converted into trained skill points and just add it to the character. Not all people had put into training long enough skills to cover the additional downtime. So they decided to give the 100,000 skill points to all that had active accounts at the time iirc. Was the quickest way to deal with it and a bit of a sweetener for the added inconvenience. It is possible that it could happen again but I doubt it'll be often. A lot of people trained through that peroid and got the bonus points too. Lucky them, but it was the easiest way to deal with the extended downtime as a reimbursement. I think you worry too much, I don't think this game will turn into a shooter type game, it would alienate too much of it's player base.


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