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Serge Bastana Gallente GWA Corp	Posted - 2011.01.06 22:17:00 - [121] Edited by: Serge Bastana on 06/01/2011 22:17:24 Originally by: Wiki Leaks Adding "NO U" to my list of "Good Reasons To Never Change The Skill System" Sorry, I descended to your level for a while there. Four pages and you're still acting like a spoilt child. I gave you very good reasons but you choose to ignore them, so what's the point of presenting reasoned argument when you simply stick your fingers in your ears and attempt to use the most spurious arguments I've seen on the forums for a while tp try to make your own point seem more valid than those already provided, which you aren't but you don't care that the reasons given are why so many of us enjoy this game, primarily because those who want instant gratification in the manner you prescribe tend to stamp their feet and go find some other game to get their jollies in. I'll just sit back and watch you rage while those who can put forward reasoned argument repeat the reasons you won't get what you want. ------------------------------------------------ You either need a punch up the throat or a good shag. Nobody round here is offering the second one therefore your choices are limited!
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2011.01.06 22:17:00 - [122] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 06/01/2011 22:22:33 Originally by: Brannor McThife No, that's where you're wrong. Someone could throw a few thousand $$$ at characters, skills, and a few motherships/titans and all they'd need is rudementary fitting knowledge and they'd kick a small fleet of vet's asses. Hell, if I was a Russian Billionaire, I could take over EvE and really win. CCP would get rich, but I'd own New Eden and you'd all have to hide in high-sec from my Titan blobs. That is only the big IF, which is unlikely to happen, to be honest. No Russian billionaire will buy this game like that. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Go vote! Put voice for silent majority. LOVE PVP, HATE grief
Brannor McThife Caldari Lambent Enterprises Black Thorne Alliance	Posted - 2011.01.06 23:20:00 - [123] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire That is only the big IF, which is unlikely to happen, to be honest. No Russian billionaire will buy this game like that. They did it in Football... :P But... what if Blizzard wanted to destroy EvE? Wouldn't take that much to pay a small company to create a bunch of accounts and do this... The minute you allow RL cash to influence the game so easily, you open the door for your competitors to destroy your game. Yse yes... tinfoil hat stuff... but it could happed. Anyway... wouldn't matter to me, because as soon as the door opened, I'd be out the other way. -G
Lain Umi	Posted - 2011.01.06 23:28:00 - [124] Edited by: Lain Umi on 06/01/2011 23:29:17 Originally by: Amateratsu Buying skills would destroy 1 of the major concepts that helps make eve online the great game it is. If you could buy all the skills you need to do whatever you want ingame, the game would become boring and pointless very quickly. there would be nothing left to work or strive for. this idea has been suggested and rejected many times and will hopefully never happen. the amount of emo rage quitting would drawf anything we've seen ingame to date. I have to give this idea a big fat NO. are you actually saying that waiting for a skill to finish training is what makes eve the great game it is? thats ridiculous. what makes eve great is the market. thats it. it's a sandbox pvp game. if anything, the most annoying part about the game is waiting 3 months so you can fly a specific ship. it contributes absolutely nothing to the game's mechanics.
Xia Shianggu	Posted - 2011.01.07 00:45:00 - [125] The requirement that skills progress and are built gradually is vital to making EVE an enjoyable game. No, not because everyone likes waiting. No-one likes waiting. Waiting sucks. A critical issue is, in fact, choice paralysis. Let's assume that I'm a rank newbie with cash to blow at whim, and I start a new character. I blow a pile of cash to get 100 million SP or more. I can fly any ship, do any industry. What, then, do I do? I have no idea what I want to do. I don't really know what the possibilities are. I don't know how to fly a ship well, so if I try PvP it's going to be frustrating and pointless. I don't know how to build a worthwhile industrial setup, so I'll get lost trying to do that. I don't know anything, anything at all, so I'll poke about randomly, get bored and quit. Building a character gradually, you have to pick and choose which skills to train. You'll be working with what you've got, experimenting with the things you can do within your limited skillset, you'll be picking something you want to be able to do and you'll be getting into that thing while you build the skills you need to do it well. Maybe you'll want to change paths - that's fine, EVE lets you do that. If you buy a skilled character on the bazaar, the odds are that character is also going to have been skilled to /a purpose/, which means again, you have some direction to your play. In EVE, you have a true sandbox. You can do anything. The skill system, especially for new players, is part of what helps you narrow the focus to being able to find something specific to do.
xavier69 Gallente Stark Enterprises LLC	Posted - 2011.01.07 02:55:00 - [126] Edited by: xavier69 on 07/01/2011 03:01:26 So basically you want to buy a better character than I have after 7 years ? Wow that sounds like all other online games that reward the 10 year old who plays 17 hours a day on moms dime and bends over the hard working player who has a life... Looking at our skill system i think your ANSWER is allready there FJUCK NO You want to buy a character then use this forum Character Bazaar like everyone else and have a nice glass of ....STFU XOXOXOXO
Luminos Durid is 4 Fite	Posted - 2011.01.07 03:20:00 - [127] Originally by: Skex Relbore Your lack of reading comprehension skills doesn't not a contradiction make. The hard way in this case means that someone had to have the patience to plan out and then manage that skill queue. Sure it's not super hard but it's still harder than say buying 100million skillpoints and applying them to exactly the skills you want in a few minutes time. A big part of the game is figuring out how to skill your character for best value. "Do I really need that skill to 5 could it make do with 4 or even 3, how many other skills could I get to 4 in the time it would take me to get that skill to 5 is the advantage provided really worth it? does it open up a new ship or new item that I really want to be able use." then there is the anticipation while you wait for the skills to complete the impatience while waiting and finally the reward once it comes through. which is more gratifying because of the anticipation. Oh and if it wasn't hard why would people be crying for a way to make it easier (buying skillpoints)> That you didn't write what you meant doesn't mean I didn't read what you wrote. I'm going to let Lain handle this one though: Originally by: Lain Uni are you actually saying that waiting for a skill to finish training is what makes eve the great game it is? thats ridiculous. Skill managment isn't hard, just time consuming. And the only reason it's even that is due to CCP only letting you set up a 24 hour queue. It's a busy-work time sink, not an actual gameplay mechanic any designer should be proud of. Which is the response to your last point: The OP isn't asking to make skilling easier, just faster. Be happy though, you still don't even compare to what is now my favorite argument of the thread: Originally by: xavier69 So basically you want to buy a better character than I have after 7 years ? Or: "Because I'm a bittervet, and I said so." ______ I feel as though I could do anything. For example, stab this cheese knife into the Self-Taught Man's eye.
Skex Relbore Gallente Red Federation	Posted - 2011.01.07 05:07:00 - [128] Originally by: Luminos More bull**** Waiting is hard hell learning to wait is one hardest things most people learn in life. Skill progression and the planning of it is a core part of the game. It's not all there is to the game but it's still an important part of it. With it being real time based ones choices have lasting consequences. Making the choice between say training Racial cruiser 5 to open up T2 cruisers or Large Projectile 5 got get access to T2 guns represents a commitment to that choice. If you chose to go for large guns and you regret it 10 days into the train you're not going to get those 10 days back to switch over to your racial cruiser. If skill points could simply be bought that consequence would pretty much be erased. Which would mean that choices would matter less. Which dumbs down the entire process. Making it (wait for it) easier. I honestly have no objections to changes that would make skill training a tad faster as long as those changes are evenly available to all players, are measured and considered and not based on simply buying points. In fact I see no way for CCP to avoid it in the long run. For that matter I see them doing it on the down low already. From lowering certain prereq's on some items/skills in Dominion to the removal of learning skills and the flat out boosting of most peoples training speed with the attribute bump that came with the learning skill removal.
Birdman Ravo Legion of The Birds	Posted - 2011.01.07 05:39:00 - [129] Edited by: Birdman Ravo on 07/01/2011 05:44:58 Buying SP is a bad idea. Period. Let's look at one factor I feel is important regarding this: who has the isk? Giant null sec corps, mission runners, scammers, and [People of low intellectual developement] buying isk. Giant null sec alliances don't need another advantage. Moderate sized corps have little to no chance of branching outside of secure space without w-space or renting turf. Selling SP means these large alliances can counter anyone with capital ship blobs, ending what few independent corp pushes into nullsec the game has almost overnight. Mission runners are one of two classes: they run missions to fund PVP, or they run missions to fund missions. The first group is going to use SP to bull-rush into whatever FOTM currently exists, and create new ones to rush into since skilling into a ship becomes a non-issue. The second group is just going to get bored of mission running and since they don't like PVP the game just becomes lackluster. Scammers don't need SP. They're usually tied to one of the three other groups, meaning more SP to them. The fourth group speaks for itself. "I just started and I'm already flying a Wyvern! Hey! What button is shoot? What's this red bar mean? Hey, I'm in a round ship, did I level up? How come I'm docked? Why can't I fly that ship anymore? 'Up to date clone' - what the hell does that mean? I put $XXX into this game and lost it already? What a ****ing scam!"
digitalwanderer Gallente DF0 incorporated	Posted - 2011.01.07 05:58:00 - [130] For me,it doesn't affect me one way or another since as it is,i'm fast aproaching the 8 year mark playing eve non stop(closing on 150 million SP),have practically all the skills in the game plugged in,and all of the stuff i'm interested in training already done,so for quite a while now,i've been training stuff that i rarely(if ever)will use to keep the skill training running at maximum speed....I hardly log in much these days,that's how much eve is boring me these days,given all the focus towards the new player experience,and new players still complain even though the older vets had it much harder in the early days. So with that in mind,if someone wants to buy skills and train them right away,only to find themselves in the same position i am with nothing of interest left to train for,and it happening much sooner than it did for me(almost 8 year player remember),feel free to do so,but you'll only get bored of the game much more quickly than i did....I'm mainly waiting on what CCP does with the ambulation patch these days.

Luminos Durid is 4 Fite	Posted - 2011.01.07 06:57:00 - [131] Edited by: Luminos on 07/01/2011 06:57:39 Originally by: Skex Relbore Le Stuffz Re: Waiting - Lots of people learn how to wait out EvE's skill queues perfectly fine. They go play something fun instead. I've been doing that for years. You might not like WoW, but it's a strong example of why not making your player base wait for 5 months to play your game is a successful idea. __________ Don't mistake me pointing out bad arguments against selling skills with supporting the OP's idea though. I just dislike it when people think their argument is good, when it's either inconsitant with itself or beside the point entirely. For the idea that skill training contains choices, let's quantify that. Your example isn't really Cruiser vs Large {Weapon}. It's Cruiser vs Battleship. That is an actual choice; flying a battleship is a different gameplay experience from flying a cruiser. But there are a lot of choices that aren't. Cruiser V vs Medium {Weapon} V isn't a choice. I need both of those, so it's just a matter of order. They aren't really fun choices though. If you get it right, and skill into something you enjoy, great! But if you screw up and find out after a month and a half of waiting that Logistics ships just aren't your thing? HTFU and get an Xbox I suppose. Tippia's argument that extra skillpoints don't increase the amount of fun you're having works both ways. If you're going to enjoy EvE that enjoyment should be SP independent, but that also means that just giving out SP like halloween candy isn't actually a bad thing. Consider: Would EvE really suffer if instead of a slow, infinite grind, you were simply given X Million SP and allowed to specialize (or generalize) as you saw fit? Certain portions of the game would be locked off to you, or you wouldn't perform as well in certain roles. All the choice, none of the wait. It eliminates that starter character dead space while they're still waiting for fitting skills and {random nonsensical pre-req} V. So we keep the good choices of skill aquisition affecting gameplay, while ditching the unwanted effects of logging off to 'play', and ending up spending a month on a skill you don't actually want. This adresses the OP complaint, both by attempting to resolve the valid issue of a poorly implemented skill system and showing how selling SP doesn't really get the OP what they want. Which brings me nicely to the reply to your post(s). Arguing that CCP selling skills is a bad idea because waiting for skill is fun makes no sense (and is fairly silly). Similarly, stating that filling out your skill queue is somehow skillful in itself is wrong. EvEMon is more than happy to tell you exactly how to train to get whatever thing it is you want. Even the argument that knowing what you want out of EvE is skillful, well... take a swing by the "Why do Black Ops suck so much" threads to get an idea as to why that argument doesn't work very well either. Next Post (maybe?): Does using the skill queue to gate content serve a purpose? (Hint: No) PS: Stupid character limit. ______ I feel as though I could do anything. For example, stab this cheese knife into the Self-Taught Man's eye.
Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2011.01.07 07:02:00 - [132] I have been buying skills from Hedion University since I started playing EVE, how do you buy skills? Originally by: Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments <0>
Verdon Teraskun	Posted - 2011.01.07 07:22:00 - [133] Originally by: Serpents smile Lol, gdiaf OP. You don't get EVE. Get your flatulent ass back to wow. Bye. You don't get business. This very well may end up making more money than EVE does now. It's dying anyway, damn the consequences.
Keras Authion	Posted - 2011.01.07 08:28:00 - [134] Buying skills for real money is bullplop in my opinion. It's like you had a game of chess and the referee came and said "The other guy paid me to have a extra pawn and a extra turn at some point but it's ok since you can pay me too for the same benefits or play as you are. You could still win if you're good". At this point I'd say f this and left to look for something not so obvious gimmeyourmoneynao game. The game needs to be balanced without having out-of-game actions affect it. Improving your skills is important in these games (especially in eve since you have relatively little control of your character compared to other twitchier mmos), whether it's killing 10000 rats or waiting for the week to get a bonus. Different skills mean different abilites for players and much more variety. Now if everyone started with 10M SP we'd see an inflation on demand for anything you could fly easily and need another boost to make the characters more specialized again (the learning skills were shaved off less than a month ago saving a month for a good portion of the new characters, now we seem to need a faster start again). And there'd still be the "why did I train this, it's awful"-factor, even if would be easier to correct. At the moment when you finally get that long skill you have been waiting for the last few weeks flying it will be much more rewarding.
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.01.07 08:38:00 - [135] From a business point of view you probably can make it a wash - if SP cost as much in RL cash as you can acquire the SP ingame from subscription money. Though, the impact on the greater game are probably too far reaching and can't be quantified accurately (just look at some of the balancing threads for modules or weapons). Let's try that anyway: - smaller ship classes would be rendered obsolete over night (frigates, cruisers, low SP industrials,.. together with all the t1 meta 0 to 3 modules) together with the blueprints for them and the industry producing that stuff - content for low SP chars would be obsolete - attribute implants would be decreasing in demand - isk sunk into new clones would rise - demand for bigger ships and all the advanced stuff (T2) would rise - ragequits on forums would increase, as noobs loosing more stuff they can't afford to loose nor had the time to learn how to use properly - FOTM will be usable by a much wider audience and cause greater imbalances - playing solo (with Alts) will get even easier and crash some markets (get an army for invention/PI/datacore/mining) - entry barriers for things that rely on long training times will vanish and render plenty of markets unprofitable overnight (invention, building of T2/T3) - banned bots can be replaced instantly and with maximised skills have a bigger impact - the market for 'used' characters would implode over night - the long term goal of sticking with the game to convert gametime into SP will be gone which will translate into more fluctuating customer numbers - many new players will reach their 'endgame' within days playing Eve and CCP will earn as much as their SP are worth in subscription money, though as more of those noobs will fail at this stage CCP will loose revenue in the long run.. not even thinking about the 'bad' PR support Public Idea Tracker \| 24hr PLEX
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2011.01.07 09:46:00 - [136] Edited by: Cyaxares II on 07/01/2011 09:48:30 Originally by: Keras Authion Buying skills for real money is bullplop in my opinion. It's like you had a game of chess and the referee came and said "The other guy paid me to have a extra pawn and a extra turn at some point but it's ok since you can pay me too for the same benefits or play as you are. nah... it's more like playing Go and the referee saying "ok, so you're pretty new and the other player has been playing this game for a long time so let's give you 9 stones and 6.5 compensation points on top of that because you happen to play white" games have to be balanced to be meaningful (if necessary by using in-game advantages/handicaps and OOG compensation points that are applied to your final score) - that's a point that Go got right and that chess lacks.
Keras Authion Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2011.01.07 11:33:00 - [137] Quote: nah... it's more like playing Go and the referee saying "ok, so you're pretty new and the other player has been playing this game for a long time so let's give you 9 stones and 6.5 compensation points on top of that because you happen to play white" games have to be balanced to be meaningful (if necessary by using in-game advantages/handicaps and OOG compensation points that are applied to your final score) - that's a point that Go got right and that chess lacks. It's true that it can balance the playing field between a veteran and a newer player, but the system is still there between two players of the same age. "You both are about the same level, but the other guy gets 3 stones because he paid me" will not be something people like to hear. And I'd rather lose to a player that has been playing several years earning their power rather than just some guy that has the willingness to spend more RL money. Skill buying could raise the bar to enter New Eden since "you have to pay to be of any use", which would still not be true of course. And since there would be more people able to get those nice ships that corporations are looking for, the ones not willing to pay for skills will be left even further behind. Plus the requirements for the pilots being recruited could jump up when there's a reasonable supply of the next best thing.
Rian O'Shea Stratos Manufacturing and Logistics	Posted - 2011.01.07 13:49:00 - [138] I wonder how many CCP alts are spamming/trolling this thread? --- The whole problem with the universe is that fools and fanatics are always certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubt.
Yazus Kor Kotharat Logistics	Posted - 2011.01.07 14:07:00 - [139] Originally by: Pocket Ace5 Drivel Post with your main, so we can grief you back to WoW. "Beware, you who seek first and final principles, for you are trampling the garden of an angry God and he awaits you just beyond the last theorem."
Jack Paladin Solar Storm Sev3rance	Posted - 2011.01.07 14:11:00 - [140] Edited by: Jack Paladin on 07/01/2011 14:11:43 Originally by: Reign Down I hope this never ever happens to EVE...would ruin it completely. nuff said

Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.07 14:44:00 - [141] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire That is because some of us don't have time but would really love to short circuit the process and enjoy the game. Having said that, some of us, maybe specifically, I, don't mind injecting liquidity into my character to get things sorted fast. You really would be better off playing a game that you could level quickly in having that kind of attitude. At least with the game as it is you can still train regardless of how much time you have and you still won't have any problems with isk thanks to PLEX. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire It doesn't matter how one gets there, what matters is one gets there. You sound like someone that would be quite happy for someone else to develop your character for you. You also sound like someone that will easily get bored with this game. Ever played a character in a solo game and used a cheat and given yourself loads of ingame currency or used god mode. In both cases the games are interseting for a very short time, until you realise that you have made the game effectively worthless.
Diesel47	Posted - 2011.01.07 14:50:00 - [142] This idea sucks so bad.
Skex Relbore Gallente Red Federation	Posted - 2011.01.07 15:38:00 - [143] Originally by: Luminos Snipped WoT to make room for new WoT Re:re: waiting. That's a choice people make they don't have to. There is plenty of fun stuff they can do while waiting for new skills to train. And actually making your player base wait for 5 months to play certain parts of your game is a successful idea. In fact it's the very principle that drives persistent world gaming. If it takes longer to achieve a goal a subscriber has to pay for a longer time, further the more time someone invests in that goal/game the more emotionally connected they become to it. That's why people play MMOs for years rather than the few weeks that a stand alone title holds their attention. Honestly if you can't find something to do with skills you can learn in just a few hours you're not going to be better at finding things to do after buying a few million SP either. Choice's. No I meant exactly what I said. It's not a theoretical choice either it's the exact choice I had to make a few days ago (well save that I'm working on Large Hybrids not Projectiles). Actually the question was to prioritize large guns, Sentry drones or T2 Cruisers. Now in 3 months it won't matter that much because I'll have all 3 but in the mean time there are consequences to my choice. Another example would be this. I spent the majority of the 1st year of this characters existence working on support skills including any prerequisites for any ships/modules that I could see wanting for the foreseeable future (pretty much everything but capital skills) I focused my attributes around it and had to plan and live/work with the consequences of that choice. I have a buddy who didn't so broadly spec and spent his time just training the skills that would help him immediately. Each of those choices had consequences. He was able to start using T2 ships much earlier than I was and for a large amount of time he had better offensive skills than I did. The trade off was that my character has a broader skill set and now as I add ship command skills I'll be ready to train those ships without having to worry about any non-per/will prereq's. Oh and to be clear here. I never said that waiting for skills to complete was fun. Not every part of an activity has to be fun for it to be rewarding. I said it was a big and important part of the game. It forces players to make real choices in how to build their characters that have consequences both in the long and short term. Buying skill points would completely obliterate that aspect of game play it would minimize the consequences of those choices to the point of triviality. "oh I spent the last month training large guns but the corp I want to join wants a logi pilot guess I made the wrong call, Oh wait let me grab my credit card and drop 35 bucks to buy Amarr Cruiser 5". And yes the game really would suffer if people were simply handed a pool of SP sufficient to let them specialize into what ever role they want instantly. Because people would never form an attachment to the game. They'd log in try it out a couple times and then either get bored or ragequit the first time something about the game ****ed them off. Fun is not the sole requirement for a good game mechanic particularly when you are looking to generate retention. Fun is a factor but all persistent worlds have core aspects of gameplay (and frankly require them) that are not fun. Grinding is never fun, Sure an encounter might be interesting and fun the first few times but by the 10th it's getting stale and old by the 100th its simply monotonous. Now that doesn't mean people can't or don't have fun grinding a boring activity can be made tolerable and perhaps even fun when done with company. It can be tolerable when it leads to a longer term goal (leveling up, getting access to new content) but it isn't likely to be fun on its own. without suffering you can not know true joy, without the wait you cannot know satisfaction. /agree about the character limit
Veliria	Posted - 2011.01.07 15:57:00 - [144] Money should never replace skill. By allowing this, a lot of player would be heavily disadvantaged by others who are willing to throws hundreds at getting fast cheap tickets to all sorts of pilots. Time in EVE would become worthless and you'd end up with a few guys on top with far too much money to spend and no skill but still raping everything. Once money directly affects what a character can do, everything else just fades into the background. Things taking time and risk/reward is a great filter in EVE, weeding out lots of people who would otherwise just buy, whine or powerlevel their way to the top. The character bazaar is different because there the characters are set in stone with all the baggage that comes with it such as standings.
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2011.01.07 16:19:00 - [145] Edited by: Cyaxares II on 07/01/2011 16:23:15 Edited by: Cyaxares II on 07/01/2011 16:22:01 Originally by: Skex Relbore And actually making your player base wait for 5 months to play certain parts of your game is a successful idea. yes, it is but it doesn't scale well as the game matures. at some point too many players will just turn away without getting bound to your game in the first place; I have had my fair share of teaching newbies and after giving them an honest answer to the "when can I fly <cool ship>?" question you can usually spend the next few days slowly trying to help them overcome their "I am never going to catch up" frustration. I think it is important for attracting new customers to keep the time a new player needs to get into a cool & useful ship about constant, even as the the SP requirements for ships that are considered cool & useful keep increasing. The Cerebral Accelerator is a nice example how to achieve this without making (too) many old players feel their own training times have somehow been invalidated. (Blizzard reducing the XP amount from level 70-80 by 20% once Cataclysm was released and the level cap increased to 85 is a similar example) Originally by: Skex Relbore Honestly if you can't find something to do with skills you can learn in just a few hours you're not going to be better at finding things to do after buying a few million SP either. not entirely true - e.g. I really like healing/support roles (healer > tank > ranged > rogue/thief > melee in general MMO terms). Without training for T2 cruisers I won't be able to fill my preferred role at all (try getting into a logistics squad in an Exequror^^) and no amount of "but you can tackle" is going to make change this. Originally by: Skex Relbore Buying skill points would completely obliterate that aspect of game play it would minimize the consequences of those choices to the point of triviality. I cannot imagine CCP selling SP directly (other than in the form of allowing character transfers) - I would expect them to sell learning speed bonuses so the tough choices would be made easier but not removed completely. A "increase your training speed by 50% for 1 week" boost sold for 1/<n> PLEX would probably result in a lively debates about "what does it really change if I have to wait 20 or 30 days for racial cruiser V to finish?" and far less outright rejection than "flat amount of SP for $". edit: Quote: Money should never replace skill. how about: "in-game skills should never replace player skill"?
Mashie Saldana Minmatar Veto Corp	Posted - 2011.01.07 16:22:00 - [146] Originally by: Forum Guy Originally by: Jenny Spitfire It doesn't matter how one gets there, what matters is one gets there. You sound like someone that would be quite happy for someone else to develop your character for you. You also sound like someone that will easily get bored with this game. Considering Jenny has changed owner a few times that is exactly what has happened.
Jack Paladin Solar Storm Sev3rance	Posted - 2011.01.07 16:42:00 - [147] EVE is all about the journey. It is about developing your OWN character, not buying it. Exploring the different paths at your own pace and own risk. Enduring the journey in the bad times and enjoying the rewards during the good times. Buying your skills means you miss out on all this. I guess one could say it would be a form of cheating.
Guttripper Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2011.01.07 16:45:00 - [148] And people were clamoring to get the learning skills removed so people can get into the meat of the game faster... Now people want to purchase skills to get into the meat of the game even faster that current practices! Give players an inch and they want the whole damn mile!!! I wonder what the next "brilliant" idea will appear on these forums to make the new player experience even more simplistic in nature.
Jack Paladin Solar Storm Sev3rance	Posted - 2011.01.07 16:49:00 - [149] Originally by: Guttripper I wonder what the next "brilliant" idea will appear on these forums to make the new player experience even more simplistic in nature. Bare with me ..... what if ..... all new pilots ..... started with +10 implants to speed up learning?
Luminos Durid is 4 Fite	Posted - 2011.01.07 16:59:00 - [150] Originally by: Skex Relbore Oh and to be clear here. I never said that waiting for skills to complete was fun. Originally by: Skex Relbore ...then there is the anticipation while you wait for the skills to complete the impatience while waiting and finally the reward once it comes through. which is more gratifying because of the anticipation. ... without suffering you can not know true joy, without the wait you cannot know satisfaction. Yes, you did. ________ The waiting 'goal' used to drive MMO gaming. Lots of things in EvE make sense when you consider the game was first put onto paper in the days of UO and EQ. But ask Turbine how badly their games are doing now that you can buy XP buffs, and get half the game a la carte. Or ask Arenanet how much they've suffered from all but completely removing skilling up. Games which put content behind huge grind walls are dying out. Grinding for shiny hats is as big as it ever was, but developers are shying away from building things their players may never see. There is a point to the idea that an MMO would die off in a matter of weeks if you removed the skill progression carrot; the game is horrible, and can only keep people with periodic "You da man now, dawg!" congratulation noises. I mostly agree with you on the few million vs many million enjoyment of the game. I think there are still too many 'no brainer' skills in the game (see: fitting skills) which don't represent a real choice for players, but simply a time sink. But overall, once you're in the type of ship you want to fly you don't get more enjoyment out of it as your SP go up. I realize that the skill you put in your training queue was Large Hybrid, but the choice here wasn't to put those weapons on your cruiser as opposed to say HAMs, or Capital Beam Lasers. By inference, if you are focusing on Large {weapon}, you are also focusing on battleship gameplay. Sentry drones represent even less of a real choice, as those can often be used in both cruisers and battleships. A choice in the skill system represents something that will change the way you play, and for the example you presented the difference is the type of ship hull you're flying; thus, my statement of it being cruiser vs. battleship. The difference between you and your friend is a good example of skill choice. And I definitely want to keep the give and take of those decisions in game. A lot of other games handle this through providing a number of "SP" allowing you to choose some abilities, without being able to do everything (see: WoW talent trees, or Modern Warfare's Perk system). Is that necessarily the way to go with EvE? Meh, maybe. Especially when you have to consider the idea of how to handle somebody who has changed their mind on what they want to have. But as I've been getting at, putting these decisions behind a month long wait isn't a great idea either. (Skipping over the "Buy Amarr Cruiser" thing; as I've said, I'm not a fan of the OP's idea either.) Attachment to the game: This reflects really poorly on EvE as a game. As I said earlier, if your game can only keep people because of the continual 'Skinner Box' carrot you put in, you've failed at game design. Progress Quest was satire, not a AAA title. Fun should be what gets people into the game, and what keeps them there. You are right in that fun doesn't need to be the primary focus of every gameplay element; fun should be a requirement for any gameplay element though (see: Why PI is crap). Your example of the skill path you took vs. your friend is a good example of this. The skill training itself isn't fun, but the engagement of choosing a gameplay path and working out your place in EvE is. Again with the character limit. :( ______ I feel as though I could do anything. For example, stab this cheese knife into the Self-Taught Man's eye.



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