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Sphit Ker Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2011.02.10 11:32:00 - [1] It's time. They don't belong in the EVE universe. You know when there is no counter but more of the same? It's time to nerf. INB4 trolls and ****heads. Prove me wrong by providing a hard counter that actually work. Prove me wrong by providing a counter the Angel Cartel ships have to fear and worry about. I give you one century to prove me wrong. Until then, don't even try. What is it, already? Support me, teach me or step off. The following statement is not my signature. The preceding statement is my signature.
Kepakh	Posted - 2011.02.10 11:56:00 - [2] Dramiel, Cynabal, Machariel? Well, if it was up to me, I would removed faction ships from the game or at least nerf them back to hangar trophies, although some balance between T1 and T2 ships might be fine. There is a reason why AF weren't made as inties on steroids....
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.02.10 12:09:00 - [3] Originally by: Sphit Ker It's time. They don't belong in the EVE universe. You know when there is no counter but more of the same? It's time to nerf. INB4 trolls and **heads. Prove me wrong by providing a hard counter that actually work. Prove me wrong by providing a counter the Angel Cartel ships have to fear and worry about. I give you one century to prove me wrong. Until then, don't even try. What is it, already? Support me, teach me or step off. how do you want them to be nerfed in a way that they still are useful? Also keep in mind that pirate ships are supposed to be the nearest thing to named tech2 ships in this game, while navy ships are the step between T1 and T2. tbh in my experience the dramiel is only problematic because of speed. kill off it's drones and he needs to get into web+scram range to deal damage. the cynabal is pretty much a HAC5 vagabond with extra fittings, an extra med, agility and twice the dronebay, while the machariel is a combat-capable vargur. --- Quote:** The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2011.02.10 12:10:00 - [4] They are pretty annoying right? Guess what we in FW/Low-sec have been clamouring for since the OP'ness was revealed While I am sorry for your discomfort, we managed to restrict their use by gimping our ships and used baiting to kill them over a period of time until the FoTY jockeys found more cost effective ways of playing the game. It is the sad reality of the molasses development cycle that CCP employs. But is is nice to see null feeling the sting so perhaps we'll finally see some action on this front. PS: Tracking is your friend. Spam metastasis rigs on your guns-ships.
Pod Amarr	Posted - 2011.02.10 12:29:00 - [5] Step 1 Good rapier/huginn Pilot Step 2 arazu/lachesis Step 3 Whatever to apply damage Cerberus/Drake is actually good for this Step 4 Profit. Dramiels have crap dps when you kill drones Pod
BadPlebe	Posted - 2011.02.10 12:52:00 - [6] Bhaalgorn. /end thread
Swynet	Posted - 2011.02.10 12:55:00 - [7] Originally by: Sphit Ker It's time. They don't belong in the EVE universe. You know when there is no counter but more of the same? It's time to nerf. INB4 trolls and ****heads. Prove me wrong by providing a hard counter that actually work. Prove me wrong by providing a counter the Angel Cartel ships have to fear and worry about. I give you one century to prove me wrong. Until then, don't even try. What is it, already? Support me, teach me or step off. Well what's the point on your coment? - they are op vs what? Tiers 1 2 or 3 of theyr counterparts? VS T2 hull counterparts? You can only compare pirate ships with pirate ships. Angel ships are based on Minmatar, minies are working perfectly atm so compare with other ones is not very fair because almost all other pirate ships (mabe not the Bhaalgorn) are all pretty good but suffer from some major problems of their base race. I would rather see all other pirate ships get to the same lvl wich would finaly mean that hybrids and gallente hull were fixed. Also meaning the only good ship caldari have to pvp being the one with +resists per lvl would be extended to all other hulls giving caldari pilots other choices than drakes or "I shoot you from here", also being hybrid pilots they could finaly use blaster/rail ships for this matter. Also give Amarrian pilots the possiblity to use other bonus than nos/neut when they don't even see the difference when they don't have one, mabe some missile bonus web I don't know because in my humble opinion Amarrian boats are pretty fine and very very close to minies, but it's just my opinion. So yes, they are more expensive than T2 ships, they are very performant but mabe you wanted to compare them with the Navy versions? -because those ones are really really overpowerd vs their base hull. Flying Mega navy and Raven navy and all I can tell you is the difference is not the other side of the street, no. It's realy realy an enourmous bridge between both.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.10 13:11:00 - [8] Step 1: Buy a badger. Step 2: fit it correctly Step 3: ???? Step 4: Profit.
Dobieblaze	Posted - 2011.02.10 13:11:00 - [9] The angel ships are fine as they are. Stop trolling
Sphit Ker Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2011.02.10 13:21:00 - [10] My point, actually. They got most of the good stuff but so little, or none, of the drawbacks. As I stand, they are the incarnation of the dreaded solopwnmobiles. In other words, they have strengths and abilities they can capitalize on almost every time while no weakness we can count on short of a specific multi-manned response involving a specific and specialized fleet composition. I mean, really, name one ship that is not vulnerable to the Rapier/Huginn plus Lachesis/Arazu combo anwyay? I can't think of one to be honest. Any ship is equally vulnerable to this setup. It is not an intrinsic weak point of the Cartel designs. I want the Cartel lineup adjusted in a way there is a weakness we can count on, in the same line we can count on most any other ships of the universe: it's this or that. As it is, they can gank for sure in a timely fashion or GTFO. Tank and EWAR is largely irrelevant to them; they can get GTFO at the flick of a button anyway. They need a nerf that will give them an exploitable weakness yet they should remain true to their identities: nimble and powerful. I've got to be honest, I really LOVE flying a Cynabal or Dramiel; these things are winners! So fast, so nimble! The blob of doom can STFU already... yup. Feels that good, man. Lets not kill them to pointlessness like the Cruor, please? Yet, they need to be dealt with. They are a breeding poison in the universe. They drag things down along their wakes to the point where the best counter is more of the same or a very specific and specialized composition. Their acceleration rate need to get nerfed a fair bit. That's how I see it. Not their top speed neither their agility nor their combat abilities per see, but only their acceleration rates. That way, they get to think slightly beyond the set orbit at 500m and collect killmails or keep at range 1,000km and survive to tell tales. With a measurably weaker acceleration rate, they'll have to figure things out and see whats best for them before they blindly commit to battle without much fear or concerns at all for their own sake. Secondary benefit of the acceleration rate nerf means that these Dramiels and Cynabals wont be already at 50+km away be the time our 1500mm scan res'ed ships get a solid lock on them... just like 99% of the universe. No ships can have it all. Cartel ships really have all that matters... just take the acceleration rate away and see what happens next <3 It's good. The following statement is not my signature. The preceding statement is my signature.
Sphit Ker Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2011.02.10 13:26:00 - [11] Edited by: Sphit Ker on 10/02/2011 13:25:56 Originally by: baltec1 Step 1: Buy a badger. Step 2: fit it correctly Step 3: ???? Step 4: Profit. I like you. <3 a lot... The following statement is not my signature. The preceding statement is my signature.
rodensteiner Amarr Awesome Jacket Society	Posted - 2011.02.10 13:36:00 - [12] Dramiel - use Slicer, certain Taranis setups, Daredevil, Cruor, etc. Cynabal - Zealot, etc. Long reaching lasers put serious hurt on T1 shield tanks. Hurricane and Vagabond can work pretty well here, too. Machariel - Once it's not moving, it's just another battleship. The shield-tanked ones are probably flimsier than your average battleship, too. _____________________________________________ I'm horrible at PVP
Korg Leaf Time Bandits.	Posted - 2011.02.10 13:48:00 - [13] Dramiel - Dual Web Caracal, Neut Vexor, AB/MSE Jaguar, AB/MSE Ishkur Cynabal - Curse (Nano ships really suck when they cant use there MWD anymore) Not really fought many machariels but like the poster above me said once scrammed I imagine its the same as most BS. -------------------------------------------- Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One!
ChromeStriker	Posted - 2011.02.10 14:00:00 - [14] Edited by: ChromeStriker on 10/02/2011 14:02:43 there are plenty of ships that can take them on 1v1 if set up correctly, especially if take into account cost! thinking about it for the cost of a cartel ship you could fit out an entire gang of similarly sized ships (or bigger) that would simply tare them a new one!! edit: how much are dramials going for nowadays? and how many aml caracals could you fit for the same price? they dont even need to be T2 fit! just think how many T1 frigs you could get for the same amount
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2011.02.10 14:27:00 - [15] OP is blatantly trolling. There are multiple fits for each ship and obviously no one fit/ship can counter them all. You get serious and post an actual fit that you think cant be countered and you will get serious answers.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2011.02.10 14:44:00 - [16] Originally by: Cipher Jones OP is blatantly trolling... That would make all other identical threads since Dominion trolls as well .. somehow doubt it. Bog standard dual-prop has no counters. You may be able to chase it off but the only way you can get a kill is if the pilot ****s up or you use a lol-gimmick fit. Reduce fittings to make the dual-prop damn hard to fit and all is well. Next!
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.02.10 14:46:00 - [17] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Cipher Jones OP is blatantly trolling... That would make all other identical threads since Dominion trolls as well .. somehow doubt it. Bog standard dual-prop has no counters. You may be able to chase it off but the only way you can get a kill is if the pilot **s up or you use a lol-gimmick fit. Reduce fittings to make the dual-prop damn hard to fit and all is well. Next! oh they have counters, you just need to think out of the box. --- Quote:** The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Cygnus Zhada Custodians of Athra	Posted - 2011.02.10 14:48:00 - [18] The problem isn' that there aren't any counter, there ARE counters ofcourse. The problem is that (just as with the nano age of old) they're TOO good, TOO fast and TOO much used. They need to be addressed. --- Stultorum infinitus est numerus.
Wacktopia Dark Side Of The Womb	Posted - 2011.02.10 15:02:00 - [19] 0/10 Dramiel - Dies all the time because once you scram/neut and get small drone on him he's dead. Cynabal - Dies to Curse/Pilgrim. Hates Drake. Scrammed = Dead unless AB+lucky. Mach - It's a BS, granted an agile one, just get some decent tackle on it and get your gang on the case.
Ravenesa The Bastards The Bastards.	Posted - 2011.02.10 15:08:00 - [20] I fly Drams and Cynabals, I also fly their counters. They are not god ships. Their big drawback is their cost, but you get what you pay for. The Dram and the Cynabl have a GTFO ability, but that alone does not always save them. Scram + Web with an AB on most AF frig hulls is enough to deal with a Dram as they tend to no fit webs themselves. Kill their drones and stick in fall off and they die. I've also seen Cynabls taken out by the veneral Rifter because the pilot was smart.
Target Painter Minmatar	Posted - 2011.02.10 15:37:00 - [21] Originally by: Sphit Ker Prove me wrong by providing a hard counter that actually work. Prove me wrong by providing a counter the Angel Cartel ships have to fear and worry about. Good sir, have you considered investing in a recon-class war vessel? If not, you should. Webs take away Angel advantage. Scrams take away Angel advantage. Being capped out takes away Angel advantage. And really, being permajammed makes any ship pointless unless it's firing FoF missiles.
Tyr Zewa Caldari Tax Collectors	Posted - 2011.02.10 16:42:00 - [22] I don't like them that much tbh but I don't think they need a nerf, there are counters out there people are just lazy and lets be honest with CCP's track record why try to solve a problem when you can cry "nerf" and some Dev who's clueless will kerb stomp them. What really makes them annoying is when a good pilot is in one, but thankfully CCP can't nerf pilots. Leave them alone, more acute problems to be solved.
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2011.02.10 17:00:00 - [23] in a virtual world where 50% of the pvp community can afford to pvp in whatever they like and speed is the best thing to avoid being killed - why would they not fly the best? if the cynabal was affordable for everyone, of couse those who could, would too - and then we would have a problem.
freshspree	Posted - 2011.02.10 17:01:00 - [24] Originally by: Sphit Ker It's time. They don't belong in the EVE universe. You know when there is no counter but more of the same? It's time to nerf. INB4 trolls and ****heads. Prove me wrong by providing a hard counter that actually work. Prove me wrong by providing a counter the Angel Cartel ships have to fear and worry about. I give you one century to prove me wrong. Until then, don't even try. What is it, already? Support me, teach me or step off. The last time i checked, angel ships were available to everyone. If you really want to kill angel ships so bad. Why don't you get one so you can reduce the so called odds. The game is a lot more balanced than it used to be. I won't tell peeps to stop posting rage threads after getting popped because that's what makes these threads time worthy.
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2011.02.10 17:02:00 - [25] Edited by: Seriously Bored on 10/02/2011 17:04:18 Originally by: baltec1 Step 1: Buy a badger. Step 2: fit it correctly Step 3: ???? Step 4: Profit. That spawned one of the most epic emo rage threads ever... Anyway. I think Angel mass needs to be nerfed so that the ships are best in class, and not best in the class below it. Some other minor nerfs as well. Been almost a year since I posted that... Originally by: freshspree The last time i checked, angel ships were available to everyone. If you really want to kill angel ships so bad. Why don't you get one so you can reduce the so called odds. Great idea! I have a better one: let's just remove all non-faction ships from the game. Why let them exist if everyone can train for the same best ship, right? Nawmsayin' nawmsayin'? ùùùùù Originally by: CCP Big Dumb Object When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed.
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.02.10 17:03:00 - [26] Originally by: Dr Fighter in a virtual world where 50% of the pvp community can afford to pvp in whatever they like and speed is the best thing to avoid being killed - why would they not fly the best? if the cynabal was affordable for everyone, of couse those who could, would too - and then we would have a problem. thing is, if price was a factor for balance, the supercaps we have atm would actually need to be boosted. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2011.02.10 17:19:00 - [27] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Dr Fighter in a virtual world where 50% of the pvp community can afford to pvp in whatever they like and speed is the best thing to avoid being killed - why would they not fly the best? if the cynabal was affordable for everyone, of couse those who could, would too - and then we would have a problem. thing is, if price was a factor for balance, the supercaps we have atm would actually need to be boosted. i would disagree because they are allience team tools and are practicly usless solo (with no alts) also theres nothing to really rival a supercarrier except a titan and we see plenty of both, unlike the cyna which is the most expensive option out of hundred(s?) of other FAR cheaper options with comparable stats.
BadPlebe	Posted - 2011.02.10 17:35:00 - [28] Originally by: Sphit Ker INB4 trolls and **heads. Prove me wrong by providing a hard counter that actually work. Prove me wrong by providing a counter the Angel Cartel ships have to fear and worry about. I give you one century to prove me wrong. Until then, don't even try. What is it, already? Support me, teach me or step off. i already gave you the hard counter, the bhaalgorn. will cap out and double web any of those ships and then eat them alive. you want a ship that angel cartel ships fear? coming within 30km of one is a death sentence for all things angel. oh, and theyre monsters in normal pvp too and dont need any special fit to ** machs and cynabals
Pod Amarr	Posted - 2011.02.10 18:06:00 - [29] I dont get it If any of those would meet a Curse it would Die. Well maybe not the Machariel for that one you would need something that can do 2000 + and is not fragile to keep a tackle on for something bigger to get scram web and DPS on. Pod
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2011.02.10 21:01:00 - [30] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Cipher Jones OP is blatantly trolling... That would make all other identical threads since Dominion trolls as well .. somehow doubt it. Bog standard dual-prop has no counters. You may be able to chase it off but the only way you can get a kill is if the pilot ****s up or you use a lol-gimmick fit. Reduce fittings to make the dual-prop damn hard to fit and all is well. Next! Yes, any thread comparing ships across 3 classes without bothering to mention what is OP about them, and asking for a counter to a non specific build is trolling.
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.02.10 21:09:00 - [31] Originally by: Dr Fighter Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Dr Fighter in a virtual world where 50% of the pvp community can afford to pvp in whatever they like and speed is the best thing to avoid being killed - why would they not fly the best? if the cynabal was affordable for everyone, of couse those who could, would too - and then we would have a problem. thing is, if price was a factor for balance, the supercaps we have atm would actually need to be boosted. i would disagree because they are allience team tools and are practicly usless solo (with no alts) also theres nothing to really rival a supercarrier except a titan and we see plenty of both, unlike the cyna which is the most expensive option out of hundred(s?) of other FAR cheaper options with comparable stats. exactly my point. IF cost was a balancing factor, supercaps would be far, far, far stronger than they are today. good thing it isn't. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2011.02.10 21:29:00 - [32] Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 10/02/2011 21:31:26 Originally by: Dr Fighter ..also theres nothing to really rival a supercarrier except a titan and we see plenty of both, unlike the cyna which is the most expensive option out of hundred(s?) of other FAR cheaper options with comparable stats. Oh? Which other cruiser can approach BC tank/gank while handling like a frigate? I mean, jeebus .. have you seen the way it turns and accelerates/decelerates, I have interceptor fits that can't pull that off .. hahahahaha. Reason why the Cynabal and Machariel are not generally considered broken like the Dramiel is that the number of ships able to counter them is significantly higher (ie. without going way out of class, like Hugginn vs. Dramiel). As for SC's being alliance tools .. perhaps that was the intent way back when, but I bet a majority of them are private assets today .. Titans are still mostly alliance assets I think (or hope ).
Lost Greybeard	Posted - 2011.02.10 21:41:00 - [33] I'd agree that the rewards gained are inconsistent with the skill investment required for those ships. I feel like they should be a bit more on par with t2 rather than having a frig outclassing interceptors on their own turf. I don't actually fly things that expensive, though, so perhaps there's a drawback I'm unaware of, usually being on the other end of the guns there. --- If you outlaw tautologies, only outlaws will have tautologies. ~Anonymous
TraderAlt117	Posted - 2011.02.10 23:08:00 - [34] Dramiel - scram+double web hookbill eats that **** up, pretty much any armor frig you use with double web will do the same. Cynabal - scram+web proteus (get a properly skilled gang member with skirmish warfare links+ mindlink) for 27k s/w, if they engage they die. Machariel - it's a battleship, if it's solo (lol) get any form of heavy tackle on it and it's pretty much yours. In a gang, the dps is above a normal battleship but then it's also got a lot less EHP - go figure what should be primary . TIP: Tracking disrupters are your friend...
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2011.02.10 23:27:00 - [35] Originally by: TraderAlt117 ... The new Hook is badass against other frigs, even Drams but it is as said: New. As for four midslot armour frigs, don't know of any viable other than the Jag which with twin webs becomes a sittings duck against pretty much everything with teeth. And tag teaming in billions worth of hardware to kill cynas, kind of overkill when a solo Navy Omen can drop them if done right .. just sayin' TD's are not your friends, they are the billionaire super-model who just proposed to you. You are a fool decline! Sad they don't do squat against the missile spammers though, but c'est la vie
Theodoric Darkwind Gallente	Posted - 2011.02.11 00:33:00 - [36] Given how much angel ships cost, they should be powerful and shouldn't have a hard 1v1 counter that doesn't have a similar cost (I would be perfectly ok with other pirate faction ships being buffed enough to counter them). Some already have a cheap T1 counter (dual web AML caracal vs Dramiel) Dramiel - if its webbed/scrammed its far less dangerous, if they are trying to kite and use drones kill the drones and you force them to either leave or get in web/scram range to fight you. You could build a sizeable fleet of AML caracals that would counter this for the cost of 1 dram Cynabal - web it, scram it, neut it, maybe some ewar too Machariel - web/scram and EWAR and turn it into a billion isk lossmail for its owner
freshspree	Posted - 2011.02.11 00:57:00 - [37] It's just sad that peeps aren't happy with how even the game is. **** must be in their favour at all times.
ArkAngel666	Posted - 2011.02.11 03:33:00 - [38] Rapier with dual webs?
Cordo Draken	Posted - 2011.02.11 03:45:00 - [39] So, a boy is crying because his Fiat doesn't perform like the Lamborgini he sees in a race next to him. Despite the fact that the Lamborgini is far more expensive, the Fiat owner expects to beat the Lamborgini in the 1/4 mile, take hard turns, do 0 - 60 in 3 seconds and then stop on a dime. Despite the Lamborgini being built for this task, the boy compares it to his Fiat and thinks the Lamborgini is just too overpowering to win the race. He whines in a blog, because he himself lacks the balls to save up to buy one, let alone risk driving on a mountain course in a race, because there's just that much more risk and cost at stake. Morale of the story: It's ok if your balls haven't dropped to handle such a machine, or your legs aren't long enough to reach the gas pedal, but don't make that an excuse to whine in a thread on something that perfomrs well with its intended use.
Cambarus Thunderfury Blessed Blade of the Windseeker	Posted - 2011.02.11 03:52:00 - [40] Originally by: Cordo Draken So, a boy is crying because his Fiat doesn't perform like the Lamborgini he sees in a race next to him. Despite the fact that the Lamborgini is far more expensive, the Fiat owner expects to beat the Lamborgini in the 1/4 mile, take hard turns, do 0 - 60 in 3 seconds and then stop on a dime. Despite the Lamborgini being built for this task, the boy compares it to his Fiat and thinks the Lamborgini is just too overpowering to win the race. He whines in a blog, because he himself lacks the balls to save up to buy one, let alone risk driving on a mountain course in a race, because there's just that much more risk and cost at stake. Morale of the story: It's ok if your balls haven't dropped to handle such a machine, or your legs aren't long enough to reach the gas pedal, but don't make that an excuse to whine in a thread on something that perfomrs well with its intended use. Your Lamborgini only costs about a hundred mil (for either of the smaller ones) Get over yourself.
Paikis Red Federation	Posted - 2011.02.11 04:16:00 - [41] Originally by: Cordo Draken because he himself lacks the balls to save up to buy one Confirming it takes BALLS to have lots of money IRL.
Space Tarantula Haklar	Posted - 2011.02.11 04:56:00 - [42] Originally by: Theodoric Darkwind Given how much angel ships cost, they should be powerful and shouldn't have a hard 1v1 counter that doesn't have a similar cost (I would be perfectly ok with other pirate faction ships being buffed enough to counter them). Some already have a cheap T1 counter (dual web AML caracal vs Dramiel) Not really working that way: It's because they're powerful AND "have a hard 1v1 counter" that they're such expensive, otherwise, people would never spend that much... just saying. The day asholes are put into orbit, you don't finish spinning* M. Audiard
Cordo Draken	Posted - 2011.02.11 05:37:00 - [43] Originally by: Cambarus Originally by: Cordo Draken So, a boy is crying because his Fiat doesn't perform like the Lamborgini he sees in a race next to him. Despite the fact that the Lamborgini is far more expensive, the Fiat owner expects to beat the Lamborgini in the 1/4 mile, take hard turns, do 0 - 60 in 3 seconds and then stop on a dime. Despite the Lamborgini being built for this task, the boy compares it to his Fiat and thinks the Lamborgini is just too overpowering to win the race. He whines in a blog, because he himself lacks the balls to save up to buy one, let alone risk driving on a mountain course in a race, because there's just that much more risk and cost at stake. Morale of the story: It's ok if your balls haven't dropped to handle such a machine, or your legs aren't long enough to reach the gas pedal, but don't make that an excuse to whine in a thread on something that perfomrs well with its intended use. Your Lamborgini only costs about a hundred mil (for either of the smaller ones) Get over yourself. You completely Failed to get the analogy. Originally by: Paikis Originally by: Cordo Draken because he himself lacks the balls to save up to buy one Confirming it takes BALLS to have lots of money IRL. Life must be very hard for you with only a reading comprehension of a dozen words or less; Don't hurt yourself.
Kid Deluxe Caldari	Posted - 2011.02.11 05:48:00 - [44] Edited by: Kid Deluxe on 11/02/2011 05:50:58 You need a counter? Scram+Web. They are difficult to catch, but the counter is already there, and boy does it **** up Angel ships. Just be creative. Don't nerf something because the lower denominator hasn't figured out proper fitting or baiting tactics.
Cambarus Thunderfury Blessed Blade of the Windseeker	Posted - 2011.02.11 05:59:00 - [45] Originally by: Cordo Draken Originally by: Cambarus Originally by: Cordo Draken So, a boy is crying because his Fiat doesn't perform like the Lamborgini he sees in a race next to him. Despite the fact that the Lamborgini is far more expensive, the Fiat owner expects to beat the Lamborgini in the 1/4 mile, take hard turns, do 0 - 60 in 3 seconds and then stop on a dime. Despite the Lamborgini being built for this task, the boy compares it to his Fiat and thinks the Lamborgini is just too overpowering to win the race. He whines in a blog, because he himself lacks the balls to save up to buy one, let alone risk driving on a mountain course in a race, because there's just that much more risk and cost at stake. Morale of the story: It's ok if your balls haven't dropped to handle such a machine, or your legs aren't long enough to reach the gas pedal, but don't make that an excuse to whine in a thread on something that perfomrs well with its intended use. Your Lamborgini only costs about a hundred mil (for either of the smaller ones) Get over yourself. You completely Failed to get the analogy. Lamborgini = angel ship Fiat = other ship amidoingitrite? As far as cost goes, a dram costs less than a HAC and is 10X as useful If you're referring to the actual speed of the cars/ships rather than the price (though you DO mention price in there) then you're conveniently leaving out some very important aspects of the angel ships: They have too much DPS and too much EHP The fastest ships in the game should not be able to dish out damage and tank like the more ganky/tanky ships of the same class, especially not with them being so absurdly cheap.
I Legionnaire Origin. Black Legion.	Posted - 2011.02.11 07:08:00 - [46] I'm sorry my 100mil fit Dramiel is better than your rifter I'm sorry my 400mil fit Cynabal is better than your Drake And I'm very sorry my 1bill fit Machariel is better than your Raven.... notice a pattern? I think the risk in all of these cases is well fit to the reward one receives for their investment.
M'ktakh	Posted - 2011.02.11 07:16:00 - [47] Performance as a function of cost should not be linear, or even quadratic, it should be logarithmic. Just compare the stats and the cost of any T2 item and its officer counterpart. You pay many orders of magnitude more in price for lets say 100% performance increase. Any item, be it ship, ammo,, module or implant, that fits said curve is balanced (at least in this aspect). Those that deviate off the 95% confidence interval are not.
Cordo Draken	Posted - 2011.02.11 07:26:00 - [48] Originally by: Cambarus Originally by: Cordo Draken Originally by: Cambarus Originally by: Cordo Draken So, a boy is crying because his Fiat doesn't perform like the Lamborgini he sees in a race next to him. Despite the fact that the Lamborgini is far more expensive, the Fiat owner expects to beat the Lamborgini in the 1/4 mile, take hard turns, do 0 - 60 in 3 seconds and then stop on a dime. Despite the Lamborgini being built for this task, the boy compares it to his Fiat and thinks the Lamborgini is just too overpowering to win the race. He whines in a blog, because he himself lacks the balls to save up to buy one, let alone risk driving on a mountain course in a race, because there's just that much more risk and cost at stake. Morale of the story: It's ok if your balls haven't dropped to handle such a machine, or your legs aren't long enough to reach the gas pedal, but don't make that an excuse to whine in a thread on something that perfomrs well with its intended use. Your Lamborgini only costs about a hundred mil (for either of the smaller ones) Get over yourself. You completely Failed to get the analogy. Lamborgini = angel ship Fiat = other ship amidoingitrite? As far as cost goes, a dram costs less than a HAC and is 10X as useful If you're referring to the actual speed of the cars/ships rather than the price (though you DO mention price in there) then you're conveniently leaving out some very important aspects of the angel ships: They have too much DPS and too much EHP The fastest ships in the game should not be able to dish out damage and tank like the more ganky/tanky ships of the same class, especially not with them being so absurdly cheap. Sigh Really? 10x more useful than a HAC? Dude, if your HAC has less EHP than a Dramiel, you're severely doing it wrong (Level 0). A Hac if caught, scrammed, save maybe a Vaga, still has a fighting chance, whereas a Dramiel, scram, webbed will die very quickly, such like this: http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=11221009 It has typically, no tank... my merlin has better EHP. What makes it hard to kill is it's speed... it's commonly known as "Speed tanking." Read a PvP guide sometime in the near future. Once you get around it's tank (Just like any other ship: Shield, armor, speed, ECM, etc.), you kill it. Yes, they have great speed, yes, they have great DPS, yes... they have a HIGH price tag in comparrison to their hull class. High risk = High potential to kill = High potential of greater sadness when you screw up... it's just that simple. Oh, congrats on getting the ship comparisons right... it only took a couple readings, but you're getting there. Maybe this concept will spark a light bulb too. Cheers
Paikis Red Federation	Posted - 2011.02.11 07:48:00 - [49] Originally by: Cordo Draken Originally by: Paikis Originally by: Cordo Draken because he himself lacks the balls to save up to buy one Confirming it takes BALLS to have lots of money IRL. Life must be very hard for you with only a reading comprehension of a dozen words or less; Don't hurt yourself. So you're saying that when you wrote Originally by: Cordo Draken because he himself lacks the balls to save up to buy one You actually didn't mean that it takes balls to save up to buy one? Cos thats what it looks like to me. In the future, please don't write it word for word if you don't actually mean it.
freshspree	Posted - 2011.02.11 07:52:00 - [50] They have too much DPS and too much EHP The fastest ships in the game should not be able to dish out damage and tank like the more ganky/tanky ships of the same class, especially not with them being so absurdly cheap. Which angel cartel ship are we talking about here? By tank do you mean speed tank? Do you think the OP will complain if dramiels were cheap? I don't see a mach tanking like a domi unless it's armor tanked and that will ruin the fit dps wise. Speed tanking is a different thing entirely. I don't see anything wrong in the machs, cynabals or dramiels dps. A mach still doesn't stand a chance against a bhaalgorn which is a suitable comparison. Vindi is in another world of it's own but blasters is another case to and please stop comparing 2 things that are differently priced. Comparing an inty to a dramiel doesn't make sense at all. The price margin is too much for you to expect the same results or nearly similar from both. Threads like this is also what caused the rattler to be what it is today. Worthless afking drone boat and the worst of all the pirate BSs. A navy domi will do a far better job. And i'm positive that those that complained didn't gain anything from the nerf in anyway. It would be very boring if all ships could pull the same stuff. CCP would then make you train only what belongs to your faction and believe me i'll prolly log on once a month if that happens. Devs should weigh and compare the proper factors before making changes to the game and shouldn't base their decisions on random rageouts like this.
Korg Leaf Time Bandits.	Posted - 2011.02.11 09:03:00 - [51] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: TraderAlt117 ... The new Hook is badass against other frigs, even Drams but it is as said: New. As for four midslot armour frigs, don't know of any viable other than the Jag which with twin webs becomes a sittings duck against pretty much everything with teeth. And tag teaming in billions worth of hardware to kill cynas, kind of overkill when a solo Navy Omen can drop them if done right .. just sayin' TD's are not your friends, they are the billionaire super-model who just proposed to you. You are a fool decline! Sad they don't do squat against the missile spammers though, but c'est la vie As the dual prop dram has to come into scram range it dies to any ab/web/scram AF that goes over 900m/s -------------------------------------------- Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One!
Kepakh	Posted - 2011.02.11 09:15:00 - [52] Lots of suggestions, lots of ideas... What I am wondering is why no other frig need such special and dedicated counter, mind boggling. That is a very obscure vision of game balance.
Korg Leaf Time Bandits.	Posted - 2011.02.11 09:23:00 - [53] Edited by: Korg Leaf on 11/02/2011 09:23:29 Originally by: Kepakh Lots of suggestions, lots of ideas... What I am wondering is why no other frig need such special and dedicated counter, mind boggling. That is a very obscure vision of game balance. What dedicated counter?? Dual web caracal is the fairly standard fitting for a caracal and most three mid AF's get fitted with AB/Web/Scram. They are hardly specialized fits for Drams specifically. With the standard Cynabal fits, the same counter that kill vaga's and other nano ships work, Curses being the major one. -------------------------------------------- Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One!
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.02.11 11:32:00 - [54] Edited by: Grimpak on 11/02/2011 11:32:04 Originally by: Kepakh Lots of suggestions, lots of ideas... What I am wondering is why no other frig need such special and dedicated counter, mind boggling. That is a very obscure vision of game balance. yes, a dual-web rapier or a AML caracal is a specific counter for dramiels that do ** vs anything else. --- Quote:** The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Target Painter Minmatar	Posted - 2011.02.11 11:48:00 - [55] Edited by: Target Painter on 11/02/2011 11:49:16 Originally by: I Legionnaire I think the risk in all of these cases is well fit to the reward one receives for their investment. Considering their cost, if anything, the reward is too low. A well fit Mach cost about ten times as much as a nano-Pest, but it's not ten times better. Even with all the bling Angel ships have, they still die doing dumb ** and your isk investment won't protect you. Dumb ** including things like sticking around with a Minmatar or Gallente recon on grid/D-scan, trying to brawl down scrambler-fit Drakes or (my favorite) falling for the heavy neut bait Raven.
Swynet	Posted - 2011.02.11 12:06:00 - [56] Originally by: Target Painter Edited by: Target Painter on 11/02/2011 11:49:16 Originally by: I Legionnaire I think the risk in all of these cases is well fit to the reward one receives for their investment. Considering their cost, if anything, the reward is too low. A well fit Mach cost about ten times as much as a nano-Pest, but it's not ten times better. Even with all the bling Angel ships have, they still die doing dumb ** and your isk investment won't protect you. Dumb including things like sticking around with a Minmatar or Gallente recon on grid/D-scan, trying to brawl down scrambler-fit Drakes or (my favorite) falling for the heavy neut bait Raven. Folowing Target Painter's argument I'll just put numbers on the table guys. One Mack one Vindi Bhaalgorn or whatever are already 1Billion isk ships, you put 3T2 rigs on them and they are already the same price of any carrier full fit, still your pirate boat isn't, you add all the fit to try give some better protection and dps projection and you get a 2.5billions ship without great gimp. The most interesting on the numbers above are: you didn't get any extra sp or skils, just a ship working better with a better fit than you would put in anyother tub. And the most intersting is they are not even in god mode. You want to take down a dramiel? fit drone navigators and look those pests doing toilet paper of the 150M dramiel, want to get down a cyna? neut/web/scram and ecm it, you'll make a expensive wreck of it and no need a 200billion fit for that, again the mack is a BS, if you know how bs's work it's easy killmail. ________________________________________________ Originally by:** Goose99 In EVE, PVE can happen anywhere, anytime. Whenever you undock, you subject yourself to involuntary PVE.
Copine Callmeknau Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams The KWFL Republic	Posted - 2011.02.11 12:11:00 - [57] Dramiel - Can't help ya, I ignore these things cause I don't fly little ships. In something of decent size send warrior II's and burn at them if you really want to force off field. Vengeance will shrug off damage from these pesks, ishkur will probs kill it with waves of warrior drones and careful flying Cynabal - Shield cane eat these for breakfast if you know how to fly, otherwise you can easily force off the field. Zealot/harbi same deal. Machariel - Correctly fitted armour pest will kill/force a mach off field. Worst case scenario you push him outside point range and warp yourself out. Basically if he's ****y and using hail you can web him down, overheat, pound with EMP for quick kill. If he's using fusion you can still reach him with EMP and force him out of tackle range and escape. The key to all these angel ship is poor EHP and high speed. Use this to your advantage. Hit em hard and they will burn to a safer range most likely putting them outside their own point for a fair few seconds. Take the opportunity to warp out if you need. Stunning EVE Online Theme for PS3
Target Painter Minmatar	Posted - 2011.02.11 12:14:00 - [58] Originally by: Copine Callmeknau The key to all these angel ship is poor EHP and high speed. Use this to your advantage. Cynabals have about as much EHP and DPS as any shield BC, except the Drake. Machs have the standard BS 100K EHP if buffer tanked and a reasonable active tank with a X-L booster. Quote: Hit em hard and they will burn to a safer range most likely putting them outside their own point for a fair few seconds. Take the opportunity to warp out if you need. Webs, scrams and overheated MWDs work too.
Copine Callmeknau Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams The KWFL Republic	Posted - 2011.02.11 12:49:00 - [59] Originally by: Target Painter Originally by: Copine Callmeknau The key to all these angel ship is poor EHP and high speed. Use this to your advantage. Cynabals have about as much EHP and DPS as any shield BC, except the Drake. Machs have the standard BS 100K EHP if buffer tanked and a reasonable active tank with a X-L booster. 100k EHP is pretty terrible for a BS tbh. I'd expect that from a cane... And that's before you even take slaves into account ^^ X-L booster might work I guess, if you didn't need that cap anyway. running X-L + neut + MWD gets a bit tricky, especially when pest pilot has twin heavy neut on you. Either way a pest should be able to out dps an X-L pretty easily unless it's HG crystals, and even then it's simply a matter of time. anyway haha, I see two useful cynabal fits. A) Cap stable with crap tank (37.5% less EHP than shield cane), B) Iffy cap with decent tank (16% less EHP than shield cane). Either of these fits have 32.5% less dps than a shield cane. ofc they have 50% more range, but it's a moot point as the cane can hit to unheated point range with EMP, in the event the cynabal heats point the cane switches to barrage (cynabal using emp @ 30km). Cane now outdamages cynabal by only 16% but has far greater EHP. This is a best case situation for cynabal, using 5x HH II. I doubt this is the normal fit, so dps difference becomes even greater. For reference, my HAM drake has like 60% less dps than shieldcane, and almost double the EHP. Regardless of the statistics easiest way to get a kill is this: bait cynabal with tanked cru packing s/w. Cynabal tend to go in close on cru I've noticed. Warp in with shield cane, overheat mwd and guns, burn directly at cynabal, unload with EMP and watch as HP drops like an MSE thrasher. Stunning EVE Online Theme for PS3
Kepakh	Posted - 2011.02.11 12:49:00 - [60] Originally by: Korg Leaf What dedicated counter?? Dual web caracal is the fairly standard fitting for a caracal and most three mid AF's get fitted with AB/Web/Scram. They are hardly specialized fits for Drams specifically. With the standard Cynabal fits, the same counter that kill vaga's and other nano ships work, Curses being the major one. Originally by: Grimpak yes, a dual-web rapier or a AML caracal is a specific counter for dramiels that do ** vs anything else. Yep, that's what I said. I need Rapier - ewar ship, I need AML caracal - specific fit. I do not need** those to take any other frig down, just the Dramiel. That is what 'special and dedicated counter' means...
Korg Leaf Time Bandits.	Posted - 2011.02.11 12:59:00 - [61] Edited by: Korg Leaf on 11/02/2011 13:04:40 Edited by: Korg Leaf on 11/02/2011 13:02:25 Originally by: Kepakh Originally by: Korg Leaf What dedicated counter?? Dual web caracal is the fairly standard fitting for a caracal and most three mid AF's get fitted with AB/Web/Scram. They are hardly specialized fits for Drams specifically. With the standard Cynabal fits, the same counter that kill vaga's and other nano ships work, Curses being the major one. Originally by: Grimpak yes, a dual-web rapier or a AML caracal is a specific counter for dramiels that do ** vs anything else. Yep, that's what I said. I need Rapier - ewar ship, I need AML caracal - specific fit. I do not need** those to take any other frig down, just the Dramiel. That is what 'special and dedicated counter' means... And if you had read the rest of my post I mentioned standard assault frigate fits. edit. Basically anything that kills normal frigates will kill a dram, the AML caracal is the standard caracal fit you dont need one, I just mentioned it as it will kill dual prop dramiels. The same things that kill normal frigs will kill the standard dual prop dram. Neut vexors, Dual 180 Ruptures, AML Caracals, Armor Canes, Neut Myrms. Anything that can cap it out and web it once should kill it fast -------------------------------------------- Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One!
Dray Caldari Euphoria Released WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2011.02.11 13:23:00 - [62] Originally by: Kepakh Yep, that's what I said. I need Rapier - ewar ship, I need AML caracal - specific fit. I do not need those to take any other frig down, just the Dramiel. That is what 'special and dedicated counter' means... By that rationale it would be fair to assume that if there were no dramiel's then we wouldn't see rapiers or AML cara's flying around. I'm willing to bet that if dram's were removed from game you'd still see plenty of both. The real reason people hate dram's isn't because they're 10x better than other frigs but because they're 10x better at getting out of trouble, even then they still die a lot. But as some one else posted in the thread why bother working at a problem when you can cry about it and get it nerfed. To be fair to some others in this thread popping the dram's drones doesn't reduce it's damage that much, its guns are its main dps, but it's still easy to kill or scare off.
Kepakh	Posted - 2011.02.11 13:47:00 - [63] Originally by: Dray they're 10x better than other frigs but because they're 10x better at getting out of trouble I do need Rapier and AML Caracal specifically, ships out of the same class as Dramiel to kill it. Within same class I have virtually no chance to kill Dramiel while it can take confidently on any ship of the same class and kill it. Every other ship needs to sacrify DPS heavily to gain same speed as Dramiel. By good reason it basic mechanics in EVE that fast ships trade their damage and HP, Dramiel is out of this rule by miles. A ship that has speed of an interceptor, HP and damage of an assault fighter. There is no drawback, the ship has everything. That is what is broken. Got it? Leave the e-peen stroking how you can blob 1 Dramiel and how you can own them in your Curse and Rapiers aside, it it irrelevant as only what matters is how they perform within same class, everything else is secondary.
Korg Leaf Time Bandits.	Posted - 2011.02.11 13:55:00 - [64] Originally by: Kepakh Originally by: Dray they're 10x better than other frigs but because they're 10x better at getting out of trouble I do need Rapier and AML Caracal specifically, ships out of the same class as Dramiel to kill it. Within same class I have virtually no chance to kill Dramiel while it can take confidently on any ship of the same class and kill it. Every other ship needs to sacrify DPS heavily to gain same speed as Dramiel. By good reason it basic mechanics in EVE that fast ships trade their damage and HP, Dramiel is out of this rule by miles. A ship that has speed of an interceptor, HP and damage of an assault fighter. There is no drawback, the ship has everything. That is what is broken. Got it? Leave the e-peen stroking how you can blob 1 Dramiel and how you can own them in your Curse and Rapiers aside, it it irrelevant as only what matters is how they perform within same class, everything else is secondary. There are four frigates that I can think of that will kill a dual prop dramiel reliably, Hookbill, Daredevil, Jaguar, Ishkur. Others can do it but it comes down to pilot skill and specific fits. -------------------------------------------- Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One!
Rastigan Caldari Ars ex Discordia Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2011.02.11 13:56:00 - [65] Hah, I love all the suggested counters. Guess what thats pretty much the counter for every other ship. I think the focus of the complaint is that there is no true equal in all aspects of performance between Cartel ships and other t2/faction/pirate ships. Dramiel, lets make an AF thats flies and aligns faster than any other ship in the game. Cynabal, lets make it similar to the most successful HAC, the Vagabond and make it 25% better AND align like an Interceptor. Machariel, aligns like a HAC, can have the highest Alpha in the game (hello Mach gangs insta popping battleships and warping out), oh did I mention it can also go 3km/s overheated with a little effort and has 100km falloff if you properly fit it with AC's. The ability to dictate range and engagement are fine, but do they have to be just as good or better than comparable ships at the same time ?
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2011.02.11 14:10:00 - [66] Framing the argument in terms of counters is stupid. Of course there are counters. The argument should be framed in terms of balance and effects on diversity within the relevant ship class. Ignoring cost - because cost is not a factor in balance - a frigate which is faster and more agile than the fastest interceptor, yet also has plenty of EHP and DPS, is obviously a bad idea.
freshspree	Posted - 2011.02.11 15:10:00 - [67] Originally by: Gypsio III Framing the argument in terms of counters is stupid. Of course there are counters. The argument should be framed in terms of balance and effects on diversity within the relevant ship class. Ignoring cost - because cost is not a factor in balance - a frigate which is faster and more agile than the fastest interceptor, yet also has plenty of EHP and DPS, is obviously a bad idea. Very true talk. I see where you are going but it's not an interceptor. It's a faction frigate. Compare it to one then come back and continue along that line.
Kendon Riddick	Posted - 2011.02.11 16:08:00 - [68] Originally by: Kepakh Originally by: Dray they're 10x better than other frigs but because they're 10x better at getting out of trouble I do need Rapier and AML Caracal specifically, ships out of the same class as Dramiel to kill it. Within same class I have virtually no chance to kill Dramiel while it can take confidently on any ship of the same class and kill it. Every other ship needs to sacrify DPS heavily to gain same speed as Dramiel. By good reason it basic mechanics in EVE that fast ships trade their damage and HP, Dramiel is out of this rule by miles. A ship that has speed of an interceptor, HP and damage of an assault fighter. There is no drawback, the ship has everything. That is what is broken. Got it? Leave the e-peen stroking how you can blob 1 Dramiel and how you can own them in your Curse and Rapiers aside, it it irrelevant as only what matters is how they perform within same class, everything else is secondary. so what your saying is that a ship that is a bit better averagly but alot better at something specific like speed, that it then turns out to be better 1v1 than any other averagly fit ship of the same class. oh, my, god, call the internet cops this game is seriously nuaghtly and needs to be be IMPRISONED!
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.02.11 16:11:00 - [69] Originally by: freshspree Originally by: Gypsio III Framing the argument in terms of counters is stupid. Of course there are counters. The argument should be framed in terms of balance and effects on diversity within the relevant ship class. Ignoring cost - because cost is not a factor in balance - a frigate which is faster and more agile than the fastest interceptor, yet also has plenty of EHP and DPS, is obviously a bad idea. Very true talk. I see where you are going but it's not an interceptor. It's a faction frigate. Compare it to one then come back and continue along that line. one point I might concede on nerfing the dram is on the dronebay. Also pirate ships are supposed to be a step above T2. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Pod Amarr	Posted - 2011.02.11 16:30:00 - [70] Originally by: Kepakh Originally by: Dray they're 10x better than other frigs but because they're 10x better at getting out of trouble I do need Rapier and AML Caracal specifically, ships out of the same class as Dramiel to kill it. Within same class I have virtually no chance to kill Dramiel while it can take confidently on any ship of the same class and kill it. Every other ship needs to sacrify DPS heavily to gain same speed as Dramiel. By good reason it basic mechanics in EVE that fast ships trade their damage and HP, Dramiel is out of this rule by miles. A ship that has speed of an interceptor, HP and damage of an assault fighter. There is no drawback, the ship has everything. That is what is broken. Got it? Leave the e-peen stroking how you can blob 1 Dramiel and how you can own them in your Curse and Rapiers aside, it it irrelevant as only what matters is how they perform within same class, everything else is secondary. OK a hookbil has been suggested and it seems reasonably Balanced Faction against faction. If you want to stick with frig hulls a sentinel would kill it easy as well. Bonused tracking disruption and 18.9 Km of small neuts = Dead dramiel No matter How hard you try you still fail to persuade me [and most of the people here for that matter] That these ships are totally over the top. Pod
Cordo Draken	Posted - 2011.02.11 17:26:00 - [71] Edited by: Cordo Draken on 11/02/2011 17:35:37 Originally by: I Legionnaire I'm sorry my 100mil fit Dramiel is better than your rifter I'm sorry my 400mil fit Cynabal is better than your Drake And I'm very sorry my 1bill fit Machariel is better than your Raven.... notice a pattern? I think the risk in all of these cases is well fit to the reward one receives for their investment. THIS^ is the nut shell of it, and the point of my earlier analogy. Btw, is it me or are the people arguing to Nerf faction ships in this thread gone "Full Re-tar-d?" This thread has had many ppl explain the balance, there's plenty or standard counters, that they are not godly, and yet still u ppl paraphrase our words to attempt a counter arguement. The phrase, "You get what you pay for," comes to mind. And these ships are available to Everyone! So quit acting like you've been alienated, pony up the ISK and buy one! And yes, earlier I said it takes Balls to buy one, because I don't ship spin... I buy it to fly it... And if you are to afraid to risk flying it, because it's an investment in high potential pwnage, then that's your own problem and whining to nerf something you're afraid of isn't the solution. Seek your momma or a good therapist. That is all. *edit for stupid language blocker covering "mentally slow people" word.
Ophelia Ursus	Posted - 2011.02.11 17:41:00 - [72] The only people still flying drams are terrible pvp'ers who cannot get kills while flying anything that requires any degree of skill to defeat other frigates. They're obviously long overdue for a good nerfbatting; they've killed off diversity in frigate pvp to the point that the only reason to fly any other combat frigate that is not a tackle inty is so that people will be willing to engage you. "On a par with or slightly better than T2" my arse. Signature removed.
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2011.02.11 17:47:00 - [73] The Kitsune and Rook provide hard counters to Angel ships. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
Kepakh	Posted - 2011.02.11 17:57:00 - [74] Originally by: Cordo Draken Edited by: Cordo Draken on 11/02/2011 17:35:37 Originally by: I Legionnaire I'm sorry my 100mil fit Dramiel is better than your rifter I'm sorry my 400mil fit Cynabal is better than your Drake And I'm very sorry my 1bill fit Machariel is better than your Raven.... notice a pattern? I think the risk in all of these cases is well fit to the reward one receives for their investment. THIS^ is the nut shell of it, and the point of my earlier analogy. Btw, is it me or are the people arguing to Nerf faction ships in this thread gone "Full Re-tar-d?" This thread has had many ppl explain the balance, there's plenty or standard counters, that they are not godly, and yet still u ppl paraphrase our words to attempt a counter arguement. The phrase, "You get what you pay for," comes to mind. And these ships are available to Everyone! So quit acting like you've been alienated, pony up the ISK and buy one! And yes, earlier I said it takes Balls to buy one, because I don't ship spin... I buy it to fly it... And if you are to afraid to risk flying it, because it's an investment in high potential pwnage, then that's your own problem and whining to nerf something you're afraid of isn't the solution. Seek your momma or a good therapist. That is all. edit for stupid language blocker covering "mentally slow people" word. What is truly *****ed is to be capable to have 'Buy to Win' mechanics in a PVP game. ISK price and gear dependency needs to be non-factor if you want to keep the game in reasonable frame of competitive PVP environment.
Kepakh	Posted - 2011.02.11 18:08:00 - [75] Originally by: Pod Amarr OK a hookbil has been suggested and it seems reasonably Balanced Faction against faction. If you want to stick with frig hulls a sentinel would kill it easy as well. Bonused tracking disruption and 18.9 Km of small neuts = Dead dramiel No matter How hard you try you still fail to persuade me [and most of the people here for that matter] That these ships are totally over the top. OK...I will rephrase, for last time hopefully(naive, I know). Dramiel cannot be killed by any T1 or T2 frig unless you fit specifically for this task. Dramiel will disengage when things do not go well, which would be fine if only it was paid with some price, with some drawback - unfortunately there isn't any. Ship is simply too good for it's GTFO capability. You want GFTO ship? OK, but you won't kill much with it.
freshspree	Posted - 2011.02.11 18:21:00 - [76] Is there actually any t1 or t2 ship that can stand one on one with any of the pirate ships? Yeah, there are a few but they are probably counters to most ships if not all(recon class). Rattler, gila and worm are exceptions though. Those ships aren't even worth the piwait tag they have. Boost the rattler, give it those 2 launchers back FFS and the rest of its kind so it'll be a better domi and worth that piwait tag. ~ I will be really **ed if the mach gets changed in anyway. I'll start a nerf bhaalgorn thread then since there is practically no BS that can go one on one with it. At the end, we'll get a one-sided game where everything does the same ** and there's no diversity. Hell yeah!
Kepakh	Posted - 2011.02.11 18:38:00 - [77] Originally by: Grimpak which is logical since pirate ships are supposed to be a step above T2. It isn't logical nor they should be better than T2. Logical is that they should be at the same level as other faction **** and still below T2.
Dray Caldari Euphoria Released WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2011.02.11 18:40:00 - [78] Originally by: Kepakh Leave the e-peen stroking how you can blob 1 Dramiel and how you can own them in your Curse and Rapiers aside, it it irrelevant as only what matters is how they perform within same class, everything else is secondary. There is no epeen stroking it's just a simple statement of fact, just keep asking for a nerf, I don't doubt for 1 minute that sooner or later CCP will nerf it back to the stone age because they have the form for that. You think it's too much I don't.
Katarlia Simov Minmatar Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2011.02.11 18:46:00 - [79] Originally by: freshspree Is there actually any t1 or t2 ship that can stand one on one with any of the pirate ships? Yeah, there are a few but they are probably counters to most ships if not all(recon class). Rattler, gila and worm are exceptions though. Those ships aren't even worth the piwait tag they have. Boost the rattler, give it those 2 launchers back FFS and the rest of its kind so it'll be a better domi and worth that piwait tag. ~ I will be really **ed if the mach gets changed in anyway. I'll start a nerf bhaalgorn thread then since there is practically no BS that can go one on one with it. At the end, we'll get a one-sided game where everything does the same and there's no diversity. Hell yeah! I can't talk about the worm or the rattler, but the Gila is a ship with serious potential. Drake tank + ishtar drones anyone ? Its not a general purpose ship, but in a gang with scimmis its rocking. Now to get back on topic.... There isn't really a direct 1 vs 1 counter to the dram because solo frigs (assuming the pilot isn't ***ed) just don't fight ships that are obvious counters to them. Any situation where solo frigs fight each other is basically a crap shoot anyway, and is much more dependent on pilot skill and experience than it is on any single ship. The fact that there are so many comedy dramiel losses proves that its not THAT overpowered. Using a solid, normal dram fit, and you still get killed by rifters or badgers. Can't be that broken. The cynable is a great ship for sure, but again its not absurdly much better than a Vaga/Navy Stabber. If you look at them as solo ships, yes they can almost always disengage. Thats nothing new. Most minmatar ships can do that, and definitely the vaga and Navy Stabber can, and that doesn't make it broken. The cyna gets a nice layout, and 3 rigs helps ofc, but again its not brokenly awesome. Its just a good solo ship, because it can disengage. For the mach ? It's not broken. STFU and HTFU. Its a decent battleship, but it falls well within the standards of battleship performance. It normally faster and a little thinner than most bs, but thats kinda fair really. Also, BS 1vs1 are probably the rarest fights in eve and so even less important when you look at balance. There are definitely FAR more monstrous opponents in that class, of which the Bhaal and NeutDomi are probably the best. Pvp is by FAR the most balanced it has ever been in eve. Blasters and rails need looking at ofc, but other than that things are way better than they have ever been. Faction ships are good but not broken, and broadly are balanced against navy and t2. All the races have competitive ships. People actually fly shield gangs now gasp*. Angel ships are not breaking anything, they are just clearly excellent ships, and thats what they are supposed to be.
freshspree	Posted - 2011.02.11 18:47:00 - [80] "What is truly ****ed is to be capable to have 'Buy to Win' mechanics in a PVP game". "ISK price and gear dependency needs to be non-factor if you want to keep the game in reasonable frame of competitive PVP environment". THIS! If you want things to be the way you just outlined then sisi is for you. You can go there and pull ur shenanigans and mass fail theories. Eve is a PVP/PVE game mind you but its PVP does not only come in the form of fighting and shooting other ships down. There are many industrialists that play this game and rarely leave stations. Isk determines what an alliance can bring to a battleground and is what the whole of new eden is centered on. If you want the best, you've gotta grind. Everyone makes isk one way or the other and no one way is limited to a certain few. At the very least you'll have to leave your corp and join another. Dram pilots take huge risks in flying those ships. The ability to shoot one down easily will make it worth ** and it's not that it's invulnerable. 2 lossmails have been posted in this same thread showing drams that were killed by badgers. You heard that right? badgers! so go figure and do your homework if all you want to do is kill angel ships. You can as well go and play heroes of newerth where you don't have to bother about money and all that pretty much.
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2011.02.11 18:52:00 - [81] Originally by: Kepakh Originally by: Grimpak which is logical since pirate ships are supposed to be a step above T2. It isn't logical nor they should be better than T2. Logical is that they should be at the same level as other faction ** and still below T2. Faction stuff, as a rule, is better than T2. -Liang -- Eve Forum *** Extraordinaire On Twitter
freshspree	Posted - 2011.02.11 18:54:00 - [82] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Kepakh Originally by: Grimpak which is logical since pirate ships are supposed to be a step above T2. It isn't logical nor they should be better than T2. Logical is that they should be at the same level as other faction **** and still below T2. Faction stuff, as a rule, is better than T2. -Liang Liang-sama has spoken
Kepakh	Posted - 2011.02.11 18:56:00 - [83] Originally by: freshspree If you want the best, you've gotta grind.
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.02.11 18:58:00 - [84] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Kepakh Originally by: Grimpak which is logical since pirate ships are supposed to be a step above T2. It isn't logical nor they should be better than T2. Logical is that they should be at the same level as other faction ** and still below T2. Faction stuff, as a rule, is better than T2. -Liang indeed. only faction ships that are not supposed to be as good as T2 is navy ships. They are kinda like a named T1 ship. --- Quote:** The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Kepakh	Posted - 2011.02.11 19:01:00 - [85] Originally by: Liang Nuren Faction stuff, as a rule, is better than T2. -Liang Also the rule is that faction s.hit give little bonus over T2, faction ships are out of whack in ISK/performance when compared to faction modules. No faction module makes my AF go as fast for the price of faction ship. etc..
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2011.02.11 19:09:00 - [86] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 11/02/2011 19:09:44 Originally by: Kepakh Originally by: Liang Nuren Faction stuff, as a rule, is better than T2. -Liang Also the rule is that faction s.hit give little bonus over T2, faction ships are out of whack in ISK/performance when compared to faction modules. No faction module makes my AF go as fast for the price of faction ship. etc.. Two things: - Stop avoiding the swear filter. - Faction **** gives pretty **ing enormous advantages over T2. I'm not sure where you get off saying its "a little bit". But I'm not sure what makes you think that a faction module is going to suddenly make your T1/T2 frigate as good as a faction fit faction frigate... -Liang Ed: Also, you should look into coreli propulsion mods. :) -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2011.02.11 19:12:00 - [87] Originally by: Grimpak indeed. only faction ships that are not supposed to be as good as T2 is navy ships. They are kinda like a named T1 ship. And still, some of them (faction frigates) are on par or even better than the racial t2 alternatives for a lot of scenarios. Hookbill, Comet, Slicer, even Firetail in some cases.
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2011.02.11 19:21:00 - [88] Originally by: Omara Otawan Originally by: Grimpak indeed. only faction ships that are not supposed to be as good as T2 is navy ships. They are kinda like a named T1 ship. And still, some of them (faction frigates) are on par or even better than the racial t2 alternatives for a lot of scenarios. Hookbill, Comet, Slicer, even Firetail in some cases. Some named mods are on par or better than T2 as well. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2011.02.11 19:30:00 - [89] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Omara Otawan And still, some of them (faction frigates) are on par or even better than the racial t2 alternatives for a lot of scenarios. Hookbill, Comet, Slicer, even Firetail in some cases. Some named mods are on par or better than T2 as well. -Liang I wasnt complaining, I think its good that way. A navy frigate is about on par with the racial t2 frigates as far as price is concerned, while you still pay a little premium for the showoff factor. Obviously they should be about on par performance-wise, or nobody would use them. You dont buy faction modules because they are looking cool either, you buy them because you get a real benefit.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2011.02.11 19:38:00 - [90] Originally by: Pod Amarr ...If you want to stick with frig hulls a sentinel would kill it easy as well.... You require a full rack of neuts plus an extender as you only get the cycle and even then a properly timed mwd burst from the Dram brings him right on top of you .. but it is one of the better anti-frig platforms for sure. Originally by: Liang Nuren Faction stuff, as a rule, is better than T2. Pirate hulls are but all share limits and downsides of the various T2 ships (90% drone damage, range, cap etc.), except the Angel ships which have no easily identifiable/exploitable flaw. Originally by: Omara Otawan And still, some of them (faction frigates) are on par or even better than the racial t2 alternatives for a lot of scenarios. Hookbill, Comet, Slicer, even Firetail in some cases. The big difference between navy and pirate is fittings. Navy hulls can be chore to "optimize" and you usually have to make a compromise somewhere. Personal note: Would be a very interesting thing if all the navy frigs were fashioned like the Slicer, ie. as frigate sized versions of the racial destroyer.
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2011.02.11 19:40:00 - [91] Originally by: Omara Otawan I wasnt complaining, I think its good that way. A navy frigate is about on par with the racial t2 frigates as far as price is concerned, while you still pay a little premium for the showoff factor. Obviously they should be about on par performance-wise, or nobody would use them. You dont buy faction modules because they are looking cool either, you buy them because you get a real benefit. The way that T2 prices are spiking is beginning to make me wonder if faction ships+modules - even pirate stuff - will be cheaper than T2 soon. IIRC, Tengus are actually cheaper than Nighthawks and Vultures right now. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
Kepakh	Posted - 2011.02.11 19:44:00 - [92] Originally by: Liang Nuren - Faction **** gives pretty **ing enormous advantages over T2. I'm not sure where you get off saying its "a little bit". But I'm not sure what makes you think that a faction module is going to suddenly make your T1/T2 frigate as good as a faction fit faction frigate... -Liang Ed: Also, you should look into coreli propulsion mods. :) No, they are not enormous for their price. That is what keeps the usage of faction modules limited for most part and where faction ships are absurdly broken. Twist is as much as you want but no faction module makes AF go as fast as faction ships while keeping all the damage and HP.
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.02.11 19:58:00 - [93] Edited by: Grimpak on 11/02/2011 19:58:31 Originally by: Kepakh Twist is as much as you want but no faction module makes AF go as fast as faction ships while keeping all the damage and HP. 106dps from guns alone doesn't make it "AF" level. and that's with fleet EMP and 200mm AC's, meaning you need to be at 750m (!!!) to do maximum damage. you can cram TE's and gyros on the lows and go barrage, but then your dps is still quite low, specially when you consider the usual orbit ranges of the dram, meaning that it'll be nearly always at falloff ranges, thus dropping the weapon's dps by quite a number. (some 20-30dps total at usual 15km orbits) remove the "ranged" dps which are the drones (which is 47 or 58 from T2 warriors or T2 hobs respectively), and the dram becomes toothless. sure it is still fast and agile, but amazingly, a MSE dram's EHP is actually nearly equal to a MSE stilleto's. so in the end, the dramiel is better than T2, but not as overly OP as you think. same goes to the cynabal which is a HAC5 vagabond with vitamins added. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2011.02.11 19:59:00 - [94] Originally by: Kepakh ...Twist is as much as you want but no faction module makes AF go as fast as faction ships while keeping all the damage and HP. AF's are stupidly obese, it is one of their many flaws, one that keeps coming up in the "buff AFs NOAW!" threads. They are slower, heavier and have lower agility than their T1 counterparts so doesn't take much to make faction better in that regard .. just sayin'
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2011.02.11 20:06:00 - [95] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida The big difference between navy and pirate is fittings. Navy hulls can be chore to "optimize" and you usually have to make a compromise somewhere. Wrong. You get perfectly viable fits on navy frigs without a single fitting mod. There simply is no fitting difference, all you people whining about 'super awesome fittings' on Dramiels should have a look at the Firetail. It has the same amount of slots to fill, shares the same fitting doctrine, and has the same fittings (slightly more pg, slightly less cpu on Firetail). Fun fact, the cookie cutter AB only fit on Firetail works without a fitting mod, on the Dramiel the same fit needs a 1% pg implant or downgrading the AB.
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.02.11 20:25:00 - [96] Originally by: Omara Otawan Originally by: Hirana Yoshida The big difference between navy and pirate is fittings. Navy hulls can be chore to "optimize" and you usually have to make a compromise somewhere. Wrong. You get perfectly viable fits on navy frigs without a single fitting mod. There simply is no fitting difference, all you people whining about 'super awesome fittings' on Dramiels should have a look at the Firetail. It has the same amount of slots to fill, shares the same fitting doctrine, and has the same fittings (slightly more pg, slightly less cpu on Firetail). Fun fact, the cookie cutter AB only fit on Firetail works without a fitting mod, on the Dramiel the same fit needs a 1% pg implant or downgrading the AB. and people don't scream "OMFG FIRETAIL IS OP!" --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Target Painter Minmatar	Posted - 2011.02.11 20:29:00 - [97] Edited by: Target Painter on 11/02/2011 20:29:55 Edited by: Target Painter on 11/02/2011 20:29:38 Originally by: Copine Callmeknau 100k EHP is pretty terrible for a BS tbh. I'd expect that from a cane... And that's before you even take slaves into account ^^ Slaves on a shield BC, seriously? Originally by: Grimpak and people don't scream "OMFG FIRETAIL IS OP!" Because it has rather subdued DPS.
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.02.11 20:33:00 - [98] Originally by: Target Painter Because it has rather subdued DPS. so does the dram btw. it's just that people forget that it actually deals like 100dps at 15km or so. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2011.02.11 20:36:00 - [99] Grim, you're trying too hard. Seriously, the ship is overpowered. Being overpowered does NOT mean it can't be killed (so don't use that straw man argument), it means that it's too good. It IS too good, all the Angel ships are too good.
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.02.11 20:45:00 - [100] Edited by: Grimpak on 11/02/2011 20:46:28 Originally by: Tzar'rim Grim, you're trying too hard. Seriously, the ship is overpowered. Being overpowered does NOT mean it can't be killed (so don't use that straw man argument), it means that it's too good. It IS too good, all the Angel ships are too good. by what standarts? all you're saying is "it's too good because it deals omfg dps and you can't catch it!!11one". sure it does dps. some 160dps at like 750m optimal with drones. I know of frigates that deal more than that at twice the range and are cheaper. if you're really scared of the oh so mighty 80dps a dram can pull out of the 200's with barrage, then fit a TD or smth, just don't forget to kill the 3 unbonused light drones. sure it is fast. ok yes it's fast and agile. nothing a rapier/scram arazu or a huggin/scram lachesis can't handle tho, and don't come saying it's a ship specifically made to counter it, because a rapier **s up a dram as well as it s up a velator. a dram is fast and nimble, yes, but it's a pirate ship and pirate ships > T2 ships. as far as dps goes I can think of much bigger threats on the frigate range, besides the tackler on vitamins that is the dram. --- Quote:** The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
freshspree	Posted - 2011.02.11 20:46:00 - [101] Originally by: Kepakh Originally by: Liang Nuren - Faction **** gives pretty **ing enormous advantages over T2. I'm not sure where you get off saying its "a little bit". But I'm not sure what makes you think that a faction module is going to suddenly make your T1/T2 frigate as good as a faction fit faction frigate... -Liang Ed: Also, you should look into coreli propulsion mods. :) No, they are not enormous for their price. That is what keeps the usage of faction modules limited for most part and where faction ships are absurdly broken. Twist is as much as you want but no faction module makes AF go as fast as faction ships while keeping all the damage and HP. The ratio of price to performance is a lot higher for faction mods when compared to T2 mods. I'm beginning to see where this is going. It all boils down to making faction ships not worth the isk put into them and making them vulnerable to way cheaper T2 ships. I see what you are talking about.
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.02.11 20:49:00 - [102] Originally by: freshspree Originally by: Kepakh Originally by: Liang Nuren - Faction **** gives pretty **ing enormous advantages over T2. I'm not sure where you get off saying its "a little bit". But I'm not sure what makes you think that a faction module is going to suddenly make your T1/T2 frigate as good as a faction fit faction frigate... -Liang Ed: Also, you should look into coreli propulsion mods. :) No, they are not enormous for their price. That is what keeps the usage of faction modules limited for most part and where faction ships are absurdly broken. Twist is as much as you want but no faction module makes AF go as fast as faction ships while keeping all the damage and HP. The ratio of price to performance is a lot higher for faction mods when compared to T2 mods. I'm beginning to see where this is going. It all boils down to making faction ships not worth the isk put into them and making them vulnerable to way cheaper T2 ships. I see what you are talking about. tbh I wonder. people must want the ships nerfed back to the hangar trophy status they had. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Kepakh	Posted - 2011.02.11 20:53:00 - [103] Edited by: Kepakh on 11/02/2011 20:54:58 Originally by: freshspree I'm beginning to see where this is going. It all boils down to making faction ships not worth the isk put into them and making them vulnerable to way cheaper T2 ships. I see what you are talking about. Correct, that is how it should be. If you want to pay for your win, it has to come with the right price tag. Fully faction fitted T2 ship isn't cheap either. If it turns the ship into hangar trophies, even better.
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2011.02.11 21:07:00 - [104] Originally by: Grimpak tbh I wonder. people must want the ships nerfed back to the hangar trophy status they had. I want the Dramiel's drone capacity reduced to 10m3 and it's bandwidth reduced to 10mbit/s. I want its mass increased to 950,000kg. I want the Cynabal's drone bay and bandwidth halved and its mass increased to 11,500,000kg. They would still be faster and more agile than any possible competition, would still be deadly, and would be far from hangar queens. As it stands right now, the disparity in acceleration/align time between the Dram and Cynabal is at least 35% better than the second-best ships in each category. That's ridiculous. They could live with reduced drone damage/utility as well and still be good. ùùùùù Originally by: CCP Big Dumb Object When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2011.02.11 21:19:00 - [105] Originally by: Tzar'rim Grim, you're trying too hard. Seriously, the ship is overpowered. Being overpowered does NOT mean it can't be killed (so don't use that straw man argument), it means that it's too good. It IS too good, all the Angel ships are too good. No, its not. A competent frigate pilot in a navy or t2 frig doesnt fear a Dramiel nearly as much as a Daredevil. And Daredevils arent too good either, they do what they are supposed to do. Seriously, the pirate frigates arent too good, most players are too terrible.
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2011.02.11 21:20:00 - [106] Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 11/02/2011 20:46:28 Originally by: Tzar'rim Grim, you're trying too hard. Seriously, the ship is overpowered. Being overpowered does NOT mean it can't be killed (so don't use that straw man argument), it means that it's too good. It IS too good, all the Angel ships are too good. by what standarts? all you're saying is "it's too good because it deals omfg dps and you can't catch it!!11one". sure it does dps. some 160dps at like 750m optimal with drones. I know of frigates that deal more than that at twice the range and are cheaper. if you're really scared of the oh so mighty 80dps a dram can pull out of the 200's with barrage, then fit a TD or smth, just don't forget to kill the 3 unbonused light drones. sure it is fast. ok yes it's fast and agile. nothing a rapier/scram arazu or a huggin/scram lachesis can't handle tho, and don't come saying it's a ship specifically made to counter it, because a rapier **s up a dram as well as it s up a velator. a dram is fast and nimble, yes, but it's a pirate ship and pirate ships > T2 ships. as far as dps goes I can think of much bigger threats on the frigate range, besides the tackler on vitamins that is the dram. Angel ships need to be looked at Stop ** posting, it makes you look stupid.
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.02.11 21:24:00 - [107] Originally by: Seriously Bored Originally by: Grimpak tbh I wonder. people must want the ships nerfed back to the hangar trophy status they had. I want the Dramiel's drone capacity reduced to 10m3 and it's bandwidth reduced to 10mbit/s. I want its mass increased to 950,000kg. I want the Cynabal's drone bay and bandwidth halved and its mass increased to 11,500,000kg. They would still be faster and more agile than any possible competition, would still be deadly, and would be far from hangar queens. As it stands right now, the disparity in acceleration/align time between the Dram and Cynabal is at least 35% better than the second-best ships in each category. That's ridiculous. They could live with reduced drone damage/utility as well and still be good. why using a cynabal over a vagabond then? granted cynabal can fit 425's without sacrificing the utility slot, unlike the vaga, but in the rest is still nearly equal, besides agility and drone bay. the vaga even has a little edge on speed, and you can do nigh on the same dps and range out of a vaga if you sacrifice the utility slot and you have HAC5. tbh only nerf that they could have gone away with would be the drone bay. there I can understand and actually go with it. on the rest? don't touch it even with a 10-foot pole --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.02.11 21:26:00 - [108] Originally by: Tzar'rim Angel ships need to be looked at Stop ** posting, it makes you look stupid. why don't you put numbers here to back up your points instead attacking me? it would help you much more than just posting like that. --- Quote:** The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Zhim'Fufu	Posted - 2011.02.11 21:29:00 - [109] ITT: Players mad that ccp opted the angel cartel line of faction ships out of the nano nerf. Bet a few ragers here still have their poly rigged vagas enshrined somewhere. Originally by: Response to bitter carebear tears in local [19:44:46] CCP Incognito > sorry i can't talk about game mechanics. you need to use your brains and figure it out.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2011.02.11 21:38:00 - [110] Originally by: Zhim'Fufu ITT: Players mad that ccp opted the angel cartel line of faction ships out of the nano nerf. Bet a few ragers here still have their poly rigged vagas enshrined somewhere. Don't think there a many of the old large poly ships left, majority died in fire in the months after QR when every other frigate was an AB-Scram bastard and the nano-folk were still trying to come to grips with what had happened
Zhim'Fufu	Posted - 2011.02.11 21:40:00 - [111] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Zhim'Fufu ITT: Players mad that ccp opted the angel cartel line of faction ships out of the nano nerf. Bet a few ragers here still have their poly rigged vagas enshrined somewhere. Don't think there a many of the old large poly ships left, majority died in fire in the months after QR when every other frigate was an AB-Scram bastard and the nano-folk were still trying to come to grips with what had happened Ah yes ab jag was king for a while until they caught on. Originally by: Response to bitter carebear tears in local [19:44:46] CCP Incognito > sorry i can't talk about game mechanics. you need to use your brains and figure it out.
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2011.02.12 02:09:00 - [112] Edited by: The Djego on 12/02/2011 02:10:26 Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Zhim'Fufu ITT: Players mad that ccp opted the angel cartel line of faction ships out of the nano nerf. Bet a few ragers here still have their poly rigged vagas enshrined somewhere. Don't think there a many of the old large poly ships left, majority died in fire in the months after QR when every other frigate was an AB-Scram bastard and the nano-folk were still trying to come to grips with what had happened Still got at least 5 of them, even use the Ishtar from time to time with the old fit for speed running(in the true meaning of the word) L1 for standings. Pretty sure there is somewhere a polyed Omen and Sac on my Amarr char as well. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Templar Dane Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2011.02.12 02:51:00 - [113] Originally by: Grimpak 106dps from guns alone doesn't make it "AF" level. Fit a damage mod and drones and suddenly it's doing 25 more dps than a similarly fit jag with more falloff and better tracking. Wolf outdoes it in the dps department, but I know which I'd rather have. Originally by: Grimpak the cynabal which is a HAC5 vagabond with vitamins added With bigger guns, more EHP, bigger dronebay, frigate agility....and I heard vagabonds are pretty good hacs.
Cordo Draken	Posted - 2011.02.12 02:56:00 - [114] Originally by: Seriously Bored Originally by: Grimpak tbh I wonder. people must want the ships nerfed back to the hangar trophy status they had. I want the Dramiel's drone capacity reduced to 10m3 and it's bandwidth reduced to 10mbit/s. I want its mass increased to 950,000kg. I want the Cynabal's drone bay and bandwidth halved and its mass increased to 11,500,000kg. They would still be faster and more agile than any possible competition, would still be deadly, and would be far from hangar queens. As it stands right now, the disparity in acceleration/align time between the Dram and Cynabal is at least 35% better than the second-best ships in each category. That's ridiculous. They could live with reduced drone damage/utility as well and still be good. And while you're at it, reduce all their costs by half. Where do ppl come from? You get what you pay for. Ffs, if u hate facing these ships so much, don't engage one, or go buy one and try to fit it better to take the other guy out (which, btw, is the very spirit of Eve), or is that to difficult for you all. This is seriously like whining that T2 ships are OP compared to T1! Yet Pirate Faction ships are a far more expensive by comparison. That's just fact, so deal.
Templar Dane Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2011.02.12 03:00:00 - [115] Originally by: Cordo Draken Ffs, if u hate facing these ships so much, don't engage one, or go buy one and try to fit it better to take the other guy out (which, btw, is the very spirit of Eve), or is that to difficult for you all. This is seriously like whining that T2 ships are OP compared to T1! Yet Pirate Faction ships are a far more expensive by comparison. That's just fact, so deal. Because everybody flying the same ship is THE game I want to play, amirite? Price is not and was never meant to be a balancing factor.
freshspree	Posted - 2011.02.12 03:45:00 - [116] "Because everybody flying the same ship is THE game I want to play, amirite? Price is not and was never meant to be a balancing factor" Read it again and tell me what you see. Even if faction ships didn't exist. This doesn't seem to be the case.
freshspree	Posted - 2011.02.12 03:47:00 - [117] Originally by: Tzar'rim Grim, you're trying too hard. Seriously, the ship is overpowered. Being overpowered does NOT mean it can't be killed (so don't use that straw man argument), it means that it's too good. It IS too good, all the Angel ships are too good. Too good to be killed by a badger? You ever fought a bhaalgorn before?. Me thinks not.
Cordo Draken	Posted - 2011.02.12 06:36:00 - [118] Originally by: freshspree "Because everybody flying the same ship is THE game I want to play, amirite? Price is not and was never meant to be a balancing factor" Read it again and tell me what you see. Even if faction ships didn't exist. This doesn't seem to be the case. Dude, you're an idiot... Price isn't a balance factor? Ever learn about how the economy works? Higher price = better unit x (for the most part), which again when applicable as in this case = greater risk of loss. If u truly believe money isn't a factor, then go play on SiSi and knock yourself out. I suppose under ur thinking, that 70" HDTV plasma screen's price tag isn't a factor when u look to buy a new tv... Instead, i bet u only buy the $100 dollar 15". Cause who knows someone might want to steal the 70" off ur hands, but u won't care cause it wasn't a factor. Riiight
Cordo Draken	Posted - 2011.02.12 06:52:00 - [119] Edited by: Cordo Draken on 12/02/2011 06:55:50 Originally by: freshspree "Because everybody flying the same ship is THE game I want to play, amirite? Price is not and was never meant to be a balancing factor" Read it again and tell me what you see. Even if faction ships didn't exist. This doesn't seem to be the case. Dude, you're an idiot... Price isn't a balance factor? Ever learn about how the economy works? Higher price = better unit x (for the most part), which again when applicable as in this case = greater risk of loss. If u truly believe money isn't a factor, then go play on SiSi and knock yourself out. I suppose under ur thinking, that 70" HDTV plasma screen's price tag isn't a factor when u look to buy a new tv... Instead, i bet u only buy the $100 dollar 15". Cause who knows, someone just might want to take the 70" off ur hands, but u won't care cause it wasn't a factor. Riiight. BTW, if my badger can kill a Dram(as I posted earlier), then it certainly isn't that godly... Now is it? Cause some of us, don't need to fly the same ships, as u put it, to beat the supposed OP pirate faction ships.
Ranka Mei Caldari	Posted - 2011.02.12 06:56:00 - [120] Originally by: Sphit Ker My point, actually. They got most of the good stuff but so little, or none, of the drawbacks. As I stand, they are the incarnation of the dreaded solopwnmobiles. There's always something. Yesterday it was the Drake that needed nerfing, today it's pirate boats. Here's a novel idea: adapt. And if they're such solopwnmobiles, get one yourself! Solved. --
Ragnar256 Minmatar	Posted - 2011.02.12 07:18:00 - [121] Originally by: Ranka Mei Originally by: Sphit Ker My point, actually. They got most of the good stuff but so little, or none, of the drawbacks. As I stand, they are the incarnation of the dreaded solopwnmobiles. There's always something. Yesterday it was the Drake that needed nerfing, today it's pirate boats. Here's a novel idea: adapt. And if they're such solopwnmobiles, get one yourself! Solved. So, what's on the nerf list tomorrow? Hulks?
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2011.02.12 07:27:00 - [122] Originally by: Ragnar256 Originally by: Ranka Mei Originally by: Sphit Ker My point, actually. They got most of the good stuff but so little, or none, of the drawbacks. As I stand, they are the incarnation of the dreaded solopwnmobiles. There's always something. Yesterday it was the Drake that needed nerfing, today it's pirate boats. Here's a novel idea: adapt. And if they're such solopwnmobiles, get one yourself! Solved. So, what's on the nerf list tomorrow? Hulks? Man **ing hulks dude they're so overpowered at killing roids faster than my Bantam. -- Eve Forum *** Extraordinaire On Twitter
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2011.02.12 07:42:00 - [123] Originally by: Liang Nuren Man ****ing hulks dude they're so overpowered at killing roids faster than my Bantam. Yea thats outrageous, a Bantam should mine just as good!!! COST ISNT A FACTOR IN BALANCE
Copine Callmeknau Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams The KWFL Republic	Posted - 2011.02.12 08:03:00 - [124] Originally by: Target Painter Edited by: Target Painter on 11/02/2011 20:29:55 Edited by: Target Painter on 11/02/2011 20:29:38 Originally by: Copine Callmeknau 100k EHP is pretty terrible for a BS tbh. I'd expect that from a cane... And that's before you even take slaves into account ^^ Slaves on a shield BC, seriously? lolwut? I didn't say a shield cane. 100k EHP I'd expect on an armour cane, before slaves. You'd need a drake to pull 100k EHP on a shield BC. But for the record, unless you got a snake clone to jump into, why would you jump out of a slave clone for your shield cane? Adds a good 10% EHP and surprises the hell out of harbi pilots. ---- @ whiners Angel ships are pretty much fine. Tad too agile maybe. They have counters, they have weaknesses. If you can't exploit their weaknesses maybe you should go back to mining? I don't fly angel ships btw, speaking as someone who is far too broke to afford faction even after 5yrs of play. Hell I don't even like flying T2 except for specific roles (hicter, recon, logi for eg). T1 will do whatever you want it to do if you use intelligent fits, have decent skills, and fly with balls of steel Go check my combat record if you don't believe me :p Stunning EVE Online Theme for PS3
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.02.12 08:32:00 - [125] Originally by: Templar Dane Originally by: Grimpak the cynabal which is a HAC5 vagabond with vitamins added With bigger guns, more EHP, bigger dronebay, frigate agility....and I heard vagabonds are pretty good hacs. granted the vagabond has a hard time to fit 425's, but it can do it if you sacrifice the energy neut. if you do that and use similar setups for both ships, you'll notice that both the cynabal and the vaga (with HAC5) only really differ at dronebay and agility, since pretty much every other stat are quite similar. if any, the vagabond is actually faster and it's guns pump out more dps (marginally more dps), while the cynabal has a small edge on base EHP and can pump a bit more dps if you factor drones (if you use 5 meds, a 5 warrior + 5 light ecm is a better combo tho). of course that the cynabal is quite more agile than the vagabond and has an easier time on fittings, but the point is that if you have HAC5, cynabal is really a vagabond with a juiced up agility and powergrid. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Kepakh	Posted - 2011.02.12 08:36:00 - [126] Originally by: Grimpak (some 20-30dps total at usual 15km orbits) I think I found your problem...
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.02.12 08:41:00 - [127] Originally by: Kepakh Originally by: Grimpak (some 20-30dps total at usual 15km orbits) I think I found your problem... so you're saying they orbit farther? or they like to go inside web and scram range? because at 15km you're doing less than half of your gun dps even with barrage. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Target Painter Minmatar	Posted - 2011.02.12 08:45:00 - [128] Originally by: Copine Callmeknau lolwut? I didn't say a shield cane. 100k EHP I'd expect on an armour cane, before slaves. You'd need a drake to pull 100k EHP on a shield BC. Ah, I see. I don't fly a double plate Cane much anymore, I did for a little while, then realized the BS tank wasn't going to help when I had the log-on trap from hell land on me. At any rate, my point that the Cynabal being comparable to any shield BC, except the Drake, holds true. And speed is a more effective defense than EHP. And the Mach sporting a 100K EHP tank makes it much better than a nanoPest's 80Kish EHP. I haven't seen a nanoPhoon in awhile but it's EHP is even lower. Those are the only two BSes I have seen used for solo/small gang stuff in quite some time, so that's what I use to compare. Quote: But for the record, unless you got a snake clone to jump into, why would you jump out of a slave clone for your shield cane? Adds a good 10% EHP and surprises the hell out of harbi pilots. Because I live in NPC 0.0 and get podded on a fairly regular basis. Cane is a cheap throwaway ship and I fly it as such.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2011.02.12 08:45:00 - [129] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Kepakh Originally by: Grimpak (some 20-30dps total at usual 15km orbits) I think I found your problem... so you're saying they orbit farther? or they like to go inside web and scram range? Actually yea, most Dramiels fight inside scram range. Those that dont usually are the easiest to kill though. But seriously, an AB plate rifter can hold a dualprop dramiel down without a problem, all those wild claims of 'disengaging at will' are completely bogus.
Target Painter Minmatar	Posted - 2011.02.12 08:50:00 - [130] Originally by: Omara Otawan On a side note, if the best thing people can come up with for that extra midslot on the Cynabal is extra tank, they should just stick to Vagabonds, or better yet Stabbers. I'm not a fan of dualpropping my Cynabal because I tend to get caught by webs rather than scrams.
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2011.02.12 09:08:00 - [131] Proper range/kite fitted Dram does 115DPS@15km and 100DPS@20km.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2011.02.12 09:21:00 - [132] Originally by: Tzar'rim Proper range/kite fitted Dram does 115DPS@15km and 100DPS@20km. Rail Daredevil does 175DPS@15km and 140DPS@20km. Rail Comet does 165DPS@15km and 135DPS@20km. Kite Slicer does 175DPS@15km and 175DPS@20km. What was your point again?
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2011.02.12 09:55:00 - [133] Edited by: Tzar''rim on 12/02/2011 10:04:30 Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 12/02/2011 09:34:07 Originally by: Tzar'rim Proper range/kite fitted Dram does 115DPS@15km and 100DPS@20km. Rail Daredevil does 175DPS@15km and 140DPS@20km. no tracking, no speed. Also, kite fitted Daredevil, wtf Rail Comet does 165DPS@15km and 135DPS@20km. no tracking, no dual prop or no tank. Kite Slicer does 175DPS@15km and 175DPS@20km. Zero tank, no dual prop. Can't have AND speed AND dps, it's either or (And they all need less slots for weapon upgrades to do it, and besides the Comet a frigate cant kill 60% of their dps in 5 seconds). What was your point again? You can all try to reason till you see blue in the face, reality is that the Dramiel (and all Angel ships) are too good compared to other ships. Ofcourse there are counters but that's not the point. The point is that Drams and cynabals can fit everything they really need, they don't HAVE to make choices and have way too many abilities to avoid or GTFO of situations they might actually be threatened in. Can you kill them? ofcourse you can, it's not that difficult at all. Thing is that it's beside the point; There's a REASON why ppl fly them and buy them for silly prices. I'm sure all the cool kids will go "dude, I flew that 17 years ago, that's old **** man and look at x, y, z counter... See they die easily". Just as with the nano age, they're too good compared to the rest. End of story. In case of the Dram, lose a mid slot so you have to make choices, just like any other frig. Then remove some of it's dronebay and leave it 10m3
Copine Callmeknau Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams The KWFL Republic	Posted - 2011.02.12 09:56:00 - [134] Originally by: Target Painter Originally by: Copine Callmeknau lolwut? ... Ah, I see. I don't fly a double plate Cane much anymore, I did for a little while, then realized the BS tank wasn't going to help when I had the log-on trap from hell land on me. At any rate, my point that the Cynabal being comparable to any shield BC, except the Drake, holds true. And speed is a more effective defense than EHP. Yeh no amount of EHP will help you when against a big blob, it just determines how long you have to kill one or two of their ships before you pop. As far as cynabal being comparable to other shield BC... well not really. A cyclone maybe. As I outlined in my first post a shieldcane out dps's and out tanks the cynabal by a significant amount (30% plus for both stats), the shieldcane has the ability to crush a **y cynabal pilot and force a cautious cynabal well off field. You will be doing 700dps+ from 30km, 900+ with EMP loaded. This is without heat btw. Cyna gets maybe 650ish with EMP and 5x HH II, it also packs 20k less EHP. Originally by:** Target Painter And the Mach sporting a 100K EHP tank makes it much better than a nanoPest's 80Kish EHP. I haven't seen a nanoPhoon in awhile but it's EHP is even lower. Those are the only two BSes I have seen used for solo/small gang stuff in quite some time, so that's what I use to compare. Well... yeh obviously when you fit the exact same style (shield nano) the mach will outperform the pest easily, as it should do being a faction ship. Back to my first post, I outlined the counter for a mach as an armour pest. 20k more EHP than mach, 770dps out to 40km or so with EMP, enough to force him off field or out of point range. Of course without slaves the fight will be a close one, comes down to pilot skill really, can't be afraid of overheating your guns. For easy mode, fit slaves, 170k or so ehp should easily secure the victory Originally by: Target Painter Quote: But for the record, unless you got a snake clone to jump into, why would you jump out of a slave clone for your shield cane? Adds a good 10% EHP and surprises the hell out of harbi pilots. Because I live in NPC 0.0 and get podded on a fairly regular basis. Cane is a cheap throwaway ship and I fly it as such. hah, yeh I guess that's one reason. I live in lowsec so I don't need to worry about bubbles/podding :p Stunning EVE Online Theme for PS3
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2011.02.12 10:09:00 - [135] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 12/02/2011 10:12:45 Originally by: Tzar'rim (stuff) So, you seriously dual prop a kite Dramiel? You know that is kinda useless and fail, right? The fit you are advocating there is actually the easist one to LOL-kill. But anyway, you can argue till you are blue in the face, there is nothing unreasonable with angel ships, and especially in case you fly a fail kitefit there are a ton of ships that do the exact same stuff a lot better.
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2011.02.12 10:11:00 - [136] a) it's not that fail at all, just have to be more careful with your target selection (like you have to with the ships you posted) b) no I don't use one, was more of a reply to Grimpak's "dramiels do crappy dps at range", I probably should have quoted him to make that obvious. I also like how you don't actually counter the reasoning :)
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2011.02.12 10:14:00 - [137] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 12/02/2011 10:14:50 Originally by: Tzar'rim I also like how you don't actually counter the reasoning :) You didnt provide any reasoning. Let me just quote this instead: Originally by: Tzar'rim Also, kite fitted Daredevil, wtf You sure know your frigates well, good sir
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2011.02.12 10:20:00 - [138] Show me a kite fitted daredevil that isn't crap. Then, in true form to this thread, I'll show you a bunch of counters explaining what an idiot fitting is.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2011.02.12 10:50:00 - [139] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 12/02/2011 10:52:17 Originally by: Tzar'rim Show me a kite fitted daredevil that isn't crap. Then, in true form to this thread, I'll show you a bunch of counters explaining what an idiot fitting is. Thats not that hard to figure out now, isnt it? (Though there are a ton of variations on the concept really). iffa mfs x2 od catalyzed mwd faint point domination web 150 rails x2 small algid x3 Now, frigate counter please that isnt a Daredevil?
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2011.02.12 11:03:00 - [140] Originally by: Omara Otawan Now, frigate counter please that isnt a Daredevil? Hookbill with TD/Web instead of Web/Web. Also happens to be the perfect counter to the kite slicer, Vagabonds, Cynabals, Rapiers/Huggins .. anything with a gun and mwd really
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2011.02.12 11:14:00 - [141] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 12/02/2011 11:26:20 Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Omara Otawan Now, frigate counter please that isnt a Daredevil? Hookbill with TD/Web instead of Web/Web. Also happens to be the perfect counter to the kite slicer, Vagabonds, Cynabals, Rapiers/Huggins .. anything with a gun and mwd really Hookbill is a great frig, and works wonders sometimes. Though it will have some slight troubles actually catching up to it, dont you think? And with a single TD you'll still struggle to drop range enough, tracking is obviously not an issue here as transversal doesnt exist. Javelins will reach out far enough to possibly score some hits with good skills, but it really is just a case of you die or he leaves. Quote: Edit: Did I mention that I really hate the Hook for its adaptability? Nice slot layout and good cpu output makes it versatile. A whole lot of powerful setups, and its still completely underrated. Truth be told, I'm just waiting for the 'nerf Hookbill' threads once people finally figure it out.
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2011.02.12 11:34:00 - [142] Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 12/02/2011 10:52:17 Originally by: Tzar'rim Show me a kite fitted daredevil that isn't crap. Then, in true form to this thread, I'll show you a bunch of counters explaining what an idiot fitting is. Thats not that hard to figure out now, isnt it? (Though there are a ton of variations on the concept really). iffa mfs x2 od catalyzed mwd faint point domination web 150 rails x2 small algid x3 Now, frigate counter please that isnt a Daredevil? First of all; why don't you allow cruisers, Dramiel can attack cruisers just fine. I'm sure that if you want to show that a certain ship isn't overpowered by naming another one it's not too handy to put limitations on it? Secondly, lets get a Dramiel shall we. a) kite-fit dual prop Dramiel (not even going to mention one with TD). Sure you can keep him nicely at 15-20km. but at 15km they both do roughly the same dps (have fun killing drones with your 150's) and the Dram has twice your DD's tank. at 20km Dram does a bit less but his tank will easily make up for your dps. From 20-24km (non-overheated point) you're going to lose even more and you can't get away (unless you realised it was going **** up and you burned away at speed wanting to warp out and the Dram pilot isn't paying attention). Result: it's a draw (and if you're unlucky you'll lose) b) dual prop short range Dram. if you're somehow able to catch a Dram off-guard and you land between 12-19km and he's afk for 5 seconds you have a chance. But even there, at 20km he does more than half your damage while he has twice your tank. Still not going well. If he's actually not stupid or AFK (or actually gets the drop on you) he will ofcourse burn/land into scram range (domi web only slows down 75%, Dram still does 1200+, more than enough to coast and stay in range). Where his dps hits you hard, your 150's don't track and he STILL has twice your tank. Again, only viable option you have is warping off if you didn't end up in scram range. Result; you either lose or it's a draw. So you get a ship that can't deal with cruisers while the Dramiel can, it's about the same price and you fit a 90mil costing web, and it's STILL not happening?
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.02.12 11:50:00 - [143] Originally by: Tzar'rim b) no I don't use one, was more of a reply to Grimpak's "dramiels do crappy dps at range", I probably should have quoted him to make that obvious. drones are destructible. remove them from the equation (quite easy to do considered they aren't bonused), and the dram loses nearly over 60% or more of it's ranged dps, depending on the ranges you're fighting. inside falloff, drones contribute for some 40-50% or thereabouts. without them, the dram does less damage than a jaguar. adding a gyro to the dram would shift the dps for him, but you're still facing a ship that has 3k EHP more than you and can track you relatively well. at this point, the only good thing you have is the mobility to gtfo using the AB or trying to avoid enough damage to chew the 8k EHP of the jag, unless the jag decides to sacrifice EHP and also fit a web, which would actually be unusual but still in the realm of possibility. all in all, if both are pilots with same skill level, this fight is actually quite balanced. which brings us to the point a) that you posted Quote: a) it's not that fail at all, just have to be more careful with your target selection (like you have to with the ships you posted) why is the dram so good and still you need to proceed with target selection for make it work? if any, the only point where a dram could be nerfed is on the dronebay. space for 4 drones and fielding 2 instead of 3 would probably make it balanced and not hangar decoration, because I'm not seeing a point in a ship where the only good point is that it can go fast. For the record, the ares can do nearly similar speed with a fraction of cost. is that ship unbalanced? in addition to that, the rest of the pirate ships need to be revisited. some of them need a nudge in the right direction since they aren't really that performing. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2011.02.12 11:59:00 - [144] Edited by: Tzar''rim on 12/02/2011 12:02:55 Originally by: Grimpak drones are destructible True, but taking the time to do this gives the dram more time to kill you, especially when trying to kill warriors with a non-tracking bonussed, non-web Jag. Fight would be interesting tho. Originally by: Grimpak why is the dram so good and still you need to proceed with target selection for make it work? I don't, I was referring to the kite fit which I mentioned I don't fly. Apart from that, the fact that there are limitations doesn't mean it's not overpowered. If a ship can take on 90% of all EVE ships (not saying the Dram can ofcourse) then it's overpowered. Waving your arms going "but there's a few ships in certain scenarios where it doesn't win" doesn't change that :)
Kingwood Amarr Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2011.02.12 12:01:00 - [145] The only one making sense in this thread is Copine. Cynabal + Machariel are fine, Dram could need a little nerf (i.e. drone bay/bandwidth reduction and/or 3 mids). Hurricane counters Dram + Cynabal pretty handily, Cynabal is not comparable to a proper fit BC (except for GTFO factor, but that's the strength of the Angel ships and should not be nerfed in any way). It doesn't matter if it's a Dramiel or another Inty, if you get tackled and the rest of his gang arrives before you can kill him you're in trouble anyways.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2011.02.12 12:03:00 - [146] Originally by: Tzar'rim First of all; why don't you allow cruisers, Dramiel can attack cruisers just fine. Pretty much every frigate can attack cruisers just fine if its flown well and fitted for the task. And every frigate dies if it attacks a cruiser that turned out to be frigate bait. Originally by: Tzar'rim Secondly, lets get a Dramiel shall we. That would be the first Dramiel pilot that doesnt instantly bail when a Daredevil appears, but sure. a) kite fit Dramiel has no way to keep it tackled, and its tank isnt nearly twice as much (especially not on a dualprop kite lolfit). Granted, a TD fit will most likely avoid dying. b) he does not do half your damage at 15k, but it wont matter anyway as he doesnt have the buffer to win the dps race. Since frigate fights are pretty much consensual anyway, it wont matter who gets the drop on whom, since nobody does if the other guy isnt a complete moron or wants it to happen. Btw, domi webs are only 70mill, not all that much given a decent dramiel fitting will run you at least 40mill as well. But you can easily switch around to fed navy, its cheaper even.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Heretic Army	Posted - 2011.02.12 12:13:00 - [147] Originally by: Kingwood The only one making sense in this thread is Copine. Cynabal + Machariel are fine, Dram could need a little nerf (i.e. drone bay/bandwidth reduction and/or 3 mids). Dunno, imo Machariel is the one that is over the top if anything. Cyna and Dram outrun the fastest in their class, Mach does outrun and has agility level of most cruisers without any real pimping.
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2011.02.12 12:17:00 - [148] Edited by: Tzar''rim on 12/02/2011 12:23:51 Originally by: Omara Otawan Pretty much every frigate can attack cruisers just fine if its flown well and fitted for the task. And every frigate dies if it attacks a cruiser that turned out to be frigate bait. Could your mentioned Daredevil handle a cruiser? Originally by: Omara Otawan That would be the first Dramiel pilot that doesnt instantly bail when a Daredevil appears, but sure. That's because most idiots fit fusion or EMP instead of long range ammo (like every frigate pilot should. Fit T2 long range standard to deal with frigs, if you run into something bigger/slower you'll have enough time to switch back to faction). Originally by: Omara Otawan a) kite fit Dramiel has no way to keep it tackled, and its tank isnt nearly twice as much (especially not on a dualprop kite lolfit). Granted, a TD fit will most likely avoid dying. Yup, so it's a draw. Your fit against barrage <3700EHP, Dram fit against hybrids 7300EHP, I'd call that "double the tank". I don't understand why people have this low slot/rig speed-fit fetish but I tend to tank my Dramiels, they're still fast enough and they can actually take a hit. Originally by: Omara Otawan b) he does not do half your damage at 15k, but it wont matter anyway as he doesnt have the buffer to win the dps race. at 15km DD does 158, short range Dram does 91. That's more than half and as I already disproved your "doesn't have twice the tank", guess what :) Originally by: Omara Otawan Since frigate fights are pretty much consensual anyway, it wont matter who gets the drop on whom, since nobody does if the other guy isnt a complete moron or wants it to happen. In your case it does because IF you end up in his scram range you're fekked. Would you fit a more normal web that webs for more then it's probably going to be that "DD better warp off before he dies" thing. Originally by: Omara Otawan Btw, domi webs are only 70mill, not all that much given a decent dramiel fitting will run you at least 40mill as well. But you can easily switch around to fed navy, its cheaper even. I simply checked contracts, it said 90 mil but sure, make it 70 if you want. Still it's 70 mil, it doesn't help you and you need more to fit that ship, just as with the Dram. Thing is; if you run into a dramiel that's filled to the brim with go-faster low slots and rigs (which it doesn't need) you have a good chance. If you then also run into some idiot who doesn't standard have barrage loaded then sure, you'll win. If you run into a sturdy Dramiel with a non-idiot pilot your counter won't work. At best you'll be able to call it a draw.
Kingwood Amarr Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2011.02.12 12:21:00 - [149] Originally by: Lilith Velkor Originally by: Kingwood The only one making sense in this thread is Copine. Cynabal + Machariel are fine, Dram could need a little nerf (i.e. drone bay/bandwidth reduction and/or 3 mids). Dunno, imo Machariel is the one that is over the top if anything. Cyna and Dram outrun the fastest in their class, Mach does outrun and has agility level of most cruisers without any real pimping. Machariel can't track Frigs at closer range. It's main strength (like with all Angel ships) is speed + range really. Make one mistake with you ending up in Scram/Web range of something and you're dead. I didn't really feel comfortable at all flying solo in a Machariel as a flashy due to the amount of frig blobs in Metropolis when I lived there. Cynabal is p much a Vaga on steroids and it dies to p much the same things as a Vaga. Cynabal 1 Cynabal 2 Dramiel dies to anything with a good pilot really. I mentioned the Hurricane because that's the ship I fly mainly and it's a good example of a ship with a huge engagement envelope (one of the reasons I love this ship). You people really underestimate the amount of **** pilots flying angel ships tbh.
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.02.12 12:27:00 - [150] Edited by: Grimpak on 12/02/2011 12:28:35 Originally by: Tzar'rim If you run into a sturdy Dramiel with a non-idiot pilot your counter won't work. At best you'll be able to call it a draw. ah, but then that enters in contradiction with one of the fundamental laws of EVE: Trust stupid. not denying that there are good pilots out there, but unless you manage to go against the same guy over and over again, most dram pilots are simple FOTM tards that think that their dual-prop dram is invincible. one can actually say that the eve population itself is the balancing factor. thank the gods for stupidity --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2011.02.12 12:30:00 - [151] At least something we can agree on :P
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2011.02.12 12:38:00 - [152] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 12/02/2011 12:46:12 Originally by: Tzar'rim Could your mentioned Daredevil handle a cruiser? Depends on the cruiser hull and its fittng. Same with Dramiel, neither can just engage any cruiser. Originally by: Tzar'rim That's because most idiots fit fusion or EMP instead of long range ammo (like every frigate pilot should. Fit T2 long range standard to deal with frigs, if you run into something bigger/slower you'll have enough time to switch back to faction). If you use barrage against frigates in a shortrange Dramiel then you are doing it wrong. Originally by: Tzar'rim Your fit against barrage <3700EHP, Dram fit against hybrids 7300EHP Your math is slightly off there by about 20%, it is >4400EHP against barrage. Quote: I simply checked contracts, it said 90 mil but sure, make it 70 if you want. Still it's 70 mil, it doesn't help you and you need more to fit that ship, just as with the Dram. Apart from the IFFA the rest is cheap as chips. My regular dualprop dramiel fit is maybe 25mill cheaper before we factor in the more expensive hull. Though I'll concede its possible to fit it cheaper if you are willing to take the performance drop. Quote: If you run into a sturdy Dramiel with a non-idiot pilot your counter won't work. At best you'll be able to call it a draw. You can always give it a shot of course, but who said anything about countering Dramiels in this? Thats your imagination running wild, against the cookie cutter Dramiel just run a scram/blaster fit with regular web and melt it in seconds. Its one version of a rail setup you asked for, that does the job better than a Dramiel does the kiting.
Derek Shmawesome We Know Derek	Posted - 2011.02.12 13:06:00 - [153] Originally by: Pod Amarr Step 1 Good rapier/huginn Pilot Step 2 arazu/lachesis ... More importantly you need a r3tarded Angel-pilot who doesn't bail instantly when he sees those ships. Angel ships are "overpowered" for the same reason that brought us the speed nerf. They can pick their fights and avoid anything they want. Flown by an experienced pilot they are virtually invincible, which is not good in a rock-paper-scissors game like Eve. Price btw is not a valid argument for how good a ship should be. Price is what people were willing to pay. And they are only willing to pay so much for Angel ships, because those are a lot better than anything else. That's capitalism 101...
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2011.02.12 13:20:00 - [154] Edited by: Tzar''rim on 12/02/2011 13:20:48 Edited by: Tzar''rim on 12/02/2011 13:20:03 Originally by: Omara Otawan stuff you're evading the question, can a DD take on more cruiser types/fits than a Dram? it depends on what you're fighting, if really you think you should use short range ammo when fighting short range frigates then any of your opinions just became void. When fighting bigger targets THEN you switch to faction, as I stated. you use weird Barrage then, using barrage against the fit you stated you have 3700. Dunno if you checked lately but a DD is more expensive than a Dramiel :) "Who said about countering Dramiels in this" ... Wth, are you back pedalling? You STATED this exact ship and fit as a COUNTER to the Dramiel we've been talking about. So uhm, yeah :) Originally by: Derek Shmawesome Angel ships are "overpowered" for the same reason that brought us the speed nerf. They can pick their fights and avoid anything they want. Flown by an experienced pilot they are virtually invincible, which is not good in a rock-paper-scissors game like Eve. Price btw is not a valid argument for how good a ship should be. Price is what people were willing to pay. And they are only willing to pay so much for Angel ships, because those are a lot better than anything else. That's capitalism 101... This man gets it.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2011.02.12 13:30:00 - [155] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 12/02/2011 13:35:04 Originally by: Tzar'rim you use weird Barrage then, using barrage against the fit you stated you have 3700. Standard barrage, 5/6 spread kin/exp. In fact there is no projectile damage type where it will yield less than 4200. Originally by: Tzar'rim "Who said about countering Dramiels in this" ... Wth, are you back pedalling? You STATED this exact ship and fit as a COUNTER to the Dramiel we've been talking about. You are seeing things. It went like this: Originally by: Tzar'rim Also, kite fitted Daredevil, wtf Originally by: Tzar'rim Show me a kite fitted daredevil that isn't crap. Then, in true form to this thread, I'll show you a bunch of counters explaining what an idiot fitting is. I posted a kite Daredevil fit. Then you claim a Dramiel is the counter to said fit: Originally by: Tzar'rim Secondly, lets get a Dramiel shall we. I hope this clears up your confusion.
fire elf Solar Storm Sev3rance	Posted - 2011.02.12 13:41:00 - [156] Adapt or Die ... SIMPEL!
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2011.02.12 13:41:00 - [157] Edited by: Tzar''rim on 12/02/2011 13:45:16 Originally by: Omara Otawan Standard barrage, 5/6 spread kin/exp. In fact there is no projectile damage type where it will yield less than 4200. Now go ingame, open the market, find Barrage S, then it's info and tell us all what you find, thank you. Funny thing is that will even work in your favour. I don't know which EFT you're using but it's not giving you the numbers as they should be. Originally by: Omara Otawan It went like this: This... is a thread about Angel ships, in threads about Angel ships we discuss... Angel ships. And the Frigate Angel ship is the Dramiel. So if we're talking about the Dramiel, which is an Angel ship, in this Angel thread then you shouldn't be surprised if you list a ship to counter the Dramiel from my post (which, just to be sure to point out, in an Angel ship in this Angel thread), you can be pretty sure the reply is going to involve an Angel ship, in the form of a Dramiel. What?
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2011.02.12 13:47:00 - [158] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 12/02/2011 13:47:58 Originally by: Tzar'rim Originally by: Omara Otawan Standard barrage, 5/6 spread kin/exp. In fact there is no projectile damage type where it will yield less than 4200. Now go ingame, open the market, find Barrage S, then it's info and tell us all what you find, thank you. Funny thing is that will even work in your favour. I don't know which EFT you're using but it's not giving you the numbers as they should be. Surprisingly, the market shows barrage s as: 5 kinetic 6 explosive Oh my god, what a coincidence. Do I need to make a screenshot? Originally by: Tzar'rim This... is a thread about Angel ships, in threads about Angel ships we discuss... Angel ships. And the Frigate Angel ship is the Dramiel. So if we're talking about the Dramiel, which is an Angel ship, in this Angel thread then one shouldn't be surprised if someone lists a ship to counter The Dramiel from my point (which, just to be sure to point out, in an Angel ship in this Angel thread), you can be pretty sure the reply is going to involve an Angel ship, in the form of a Dramiel. I take it you agree it was you that asked for said fitting, and cant show a single word where I said its supposed to counter the Dramiel? Thought so. Nice bailout attempt though.
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2011.02.12 13:52:00 - [159] Edited by: Tzar''rim on 12/02/2011 13:54:02 Edited by: Tzar''rim on 12/02/2011 13:52:47 Damnit, I read it as expl/kin <-- idiot. You win that one :P Your EFT is still off tho. But... Originally by: Omara Otawan Originally by: Tzar'rimShow me a kite fitted daredevil that isn't crap. Then, in true form to this thread, I'll show you a bunch of counters explaining what an idiot fitting is. Thats not that hard to figure out now, isnt it? (Though there are a ton of variations on the concept really). iffa mfs x2 od catalyzed mwd faint point domination web 150 rails x2 small algid x3 Now, frigate counter please that isnt a Daredevil? And I did, I posted a frigate counter being an Angel frigate, as this is a thread about Angel ships. p.s. Can we do less he said, she said and more facts?
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2011.02.12 14:00:00 - [160] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 12/02/2011 14:02:17 Stuff happens, I did mess these up myself before. Anyway, I simply did answer to your question, and it was merely a sidenote and not intended as a full blown derail. I'm more of a blaster enthusiast on the Devil, rails arent really my thing personally. Though fact remains, there are a lot of rail kite fittings used, they are very popular actually be it MWD or AB.
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2011.02.12 14:00:00 - [161] Just to be impartial, this is a good DD fit. It kills frigs and has a very good chance of killing a Dram. Your "kiting" DD doesn't have a good chance to kill a tanked Dram, but it will kill most other frigs. Yes this fit requires you to get close but you'll win from most frigs. [Daredevil, setup] Damage Control II 200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Adaptive Nano Plating II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Light Neutron Blaster II, Null S Light Neutron Blaster II, Null S [empty high slot] Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small Trimark Armor Pump I
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2011.02.12 14:10:00 - [162] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 12/02/2011 14:16:50 Originally by: Tzar'rim [Daredevil, setup] That works, though I personally prefer the full gank fit w/ dual magstabs as the trimarked plate fittings are kinda on the slow side and killing speed equals GTFO ability on the Devil. Depending on what you fight AB + nos + ions, with couple cheap speed implants and a decent AB you'll catch cruisers no problem.
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.02.12 14:39:00 - [163] Originally by: Tzar'rim Just to be impartial, this is a good DD fit. It kills frigs and has a very good chance of killing a Dram. Your "kiting" DD doesn't have a good chance to kill a tanked Dram, but it will kill most other frigs. Yes this fit requires you to get close but you'll win from most frigs. [Daredevil, setup] Damage Control II 200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Adaptive Nano Plating II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Light Neutron Blaster II, Null S Light Neutron Blaster II, Null S [empty high slot] Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small Trimark Armor Pump I C-type ANP's. 2 of them. I would go even farther as replacing the plate for those two ANP's, meaning you can trade the ACR rig for something else. also fed navy web. the DD is really bleh without one, and considering you get a 14km 90% web, you can trade the scram for a longpoint. but then again my DD setup isn't really "specific", more like a taranis with a wee bit more tackling and speed than anything --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2011.02.12 15:12:00 - [164] Originally by: Grimpak why using a cynabal over a vagabond then? granted cynabal can fit 425's without sacrificing the utility slot, unlike the vaga, but in the rest is still nearly equal, besides agility and drone bay. the vaga even has a little edge on speed, and you can do nigh on the same dps and range out of a vaga if you sacrifice the utility slot and you have HAC5. tbh only nerf that they could have gone away with would be the drone bay. there I can understand and actually go with it. Because it can fit 425s no problem. Because it will still be more agile than the Vagabond and accelerate faster. Because it won't have to sacrifice the utility slot. Because it performs as well or better than a Vagabond with HAC5 (which takes longer to train than Cruiser V for two races). Basically, because of every reason you just listed. ùùùùù Originally by: CCP Big Dumb Object When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed.
Zhim'Fufu	Posted - 2011.02.12 15:22:00 - [165] How to counter an angel cartel ship in one easy step: Make some friends and don't fly alone. I have yet to see a dram/cyna/mach engage two ships past skirting around the edges of point range and smacking in local. As far as a gang well sure its nice to have that speed if you are out ganking solo targets but once you start to hit force parity all they can do is hit the gtfo button because they know they are going to be a primary of the enemy gang. Angel cartel ships are great for the very niche uses they have so leave them alone as they are one of the last true solo boats in the game. Originally by: Response to bitter carebear tears in local [19:44:46] CCP Incognito > sorry i can't talk about game mechanics. you need to use your brains and figure it out.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Heretic Army	Posted - 2011.02.12 15:25:00 - [166] Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 12/02/2011 15:25:40 Cyna does not beat Vaga by much. The very small extra you get is just not cost effective to make it a reasonable replacement. Vaga is my fav ship for cruiser, I dont see a reason to buy a Cyna at all. Maybe if T2 prices continue going up like crazy, but not at this moment. Dramiel is same deal if you honest, you can use the cheap alternatives just as good and you even do get more kills since people dont avoid you all the time. It is hard enough to get solo fights these days, running in pirate faction is not making it easier. Mach maybe, it has a huge advantage no battleship will be able to provide. But I'm not that into battleships, so would not know if it is worth it.
Templar Dane Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2011.02.12 16:58:00 - [167] Originally by: Cordo Draken Dude (Templar Dane), you're an idiot... Price isn't a balance factor? Ever learn about how the economy works? Higher price = better unit x (for the most part), which again when applicable as in this case = greater risk of loss. If u truly believe money isn't a factor, then go play on SiSi and knock yourself out. I suppose under ur thinking, that 70" HDTV plasma screen's price tag isn't a factor when u look to buy a new tv... Instead, i bet u only buy the $100 dollar 15". Cause who knows, someone just might want to take the 70" off ur hands, but u won't care cause it wasn't a factor. Riiight. This is a game, not walmart. By your line of thinking, a maller should be the best cruiser because it costs more to build. Originally by: Cordo Draken BTW, if my badger can kill a Dram(as I posted earlier), then it certainly isn't that godly... Now is it? Cause some of us, don't need to fly the same ships, as u put it, to beat the supposed OP pirate faction ships. Killmails mean nothing
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2011.02.12 19:51:00 - [168] Originally by: Lilith Velkor Cyna does not beat Vaga by much.... If you only look at speed, damage, tank .. sure the difference is not that pronounced. What makes them godly is the insanely low mass and all that follows plus the extra midslots. Imagine a Vagabond that didn't have to leave 50% of its tank behind to fit a TD for instance and you can't argue with the lol-fittings on the things .. you really have to go out of your way to max them out You see the same effect with the Hookbill. Stats wise it is a souped up Kestrel (only missile frig ), but with two extra mids it becomes godlike in the right hands .. the options that open up with additional midslots are staggering.
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2011.02.12 19:53:00 - [169] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida the options that open up with additional midslots are staggering. The best thing anyone's convinced me to do recently is put dual webs on my Drake. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Heretic Army	Posted - 2011.02.12 23:24:00 - [170] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Lilith Velkor Cyna does not beat Vaga by much.... If you only look at speed, damage, tank .. sure the difference is not that pronounced. What makes them godly is the insanely low mass and all that follows plus the extra midslots. I'm not looking at them in eft and phantasize, I'm flying them in combat every day. It doesnt have extra midslots, it has one extra midslot thats it. If the Cyna gets into a situation my Vaga cant handle it dies just like the Vaga dies. The only difference there is it cost 100 million extra. It is a bit easier to handle with improved agility, but if you need that you have no business in flying either. Bottom line it is not worth the money as long as the Vaga does not cost like 180 - 200 million.
Zhim'Fufu	Posted - 2011.02.12 23:41:00 - [171] Originally by: Lilith Velkor Bottom line it is not worth the money as long as the Vaga does not cost like 180 - 200 million. I prefer the cyna over the vaga because it gets you more fights. Everyone wants to get on a faction killmail but not everyone knows how to counter it even if they are in a gang. Tackling frigates pop first as they run face first into your low transversal 425mm when they chase you to try for the scram. Then once the tacklers are out of the picture you go for the closest cruiser if one has strayed from the flock chasing after you then you gtfo when the rest of the gang catches up. Takes a noob or disorganized opposing gang to pull off but tbh there are plenty of those running about now especialy with incursions. Angel cartel are awesome solo boats if you pick your fights vs even superiour forces. Originally by: Response to bitter carebear tears in local [19:44:46] CCP Incognito > sorry i can't talk about game mechanics. you need to use your brains and figure it out.
Tony SoXai	Posted - 2011.02.12 23:42:00 - [172] I wouldn't say the Dramiel is overpowered, but it is too fast. EFT Dramiel with MWD - 5000 m/s Claw with MWD - 4000 m/s This shouldn't be. It should be fast, but not THAT fast. And the dronebay. Dram should not get a drone bay, period. But if you take it away, it loses too much dps and becomes underpowered; boost the dramiel's turret damage and lose the drone bay. Those are my thoughts on this subject.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Heretic Army	Posted - 2011.02.12 23:55:00 - [173] Originally by: Zhim'Fufu Originally by: Lilith Velkor Bottom line it is not worth the money as long as the Vaga does not cost like 180 - 200 million. I prefer the cyna over the vaga because it gets you more fights. Everyone wants to get on a faction killmail but not everyone knows how to counter it even if they are in a gang. Tackling frigates pop first as they run face first into your low transversal 425mm when they chase you to try for the scram. Then once the tacklers are out of the picture you go for the closest cruiser if one has strayed from the flock chasing after you then you gtfo when the rest of the gang catches up. Takes a noob or disorganized opposing gang to pull off but tbh there are plenty of those running about now especialy with incursions. Angel cartel are awesome solo boats if you pick your fights vs even superiour forces. You can pull that off in a Vagabond just the same, and it requires them being incompetent more than you being awesome. Both are good ingredients though Not sure if it gives you more fights, on the one side its attracting more people that want to gank it, on the other side more people run from it. I think it evens out in the end.
Zhim'Fufu	Posted - 2011.02.12 23:58:00 - [174] Originally by: Lilith Velkor Originally by: Zhim'Fufu Originally by: Lilith Velkor Bottom line it is not worth the money as long as the Vaga does not cost like 180 - 200 million. I prefer the cyna over the vaga because it gets you more fights. Everyone wants to get on a faction killmail but not everyone knows how to counter it even if they are in a gang. Tackling frigates pop first as they run face first into your low transversal 425mm when they chase you to try for the scram. Then once the tacklers are out of the picture you go for the closest cruiser if one has strayed from the flock chasing after you then you gtfo when the rest of the gang catches up. Takes a noob or disorganized opposing gang to pull off but tbh there are plenty of those running about now especialy with incursions. Angel cartel are awesome solo boats if you pick your fights vs even superiour forces. You can pull that off in a Vagabond just the same, and it requires them being incompetent more than you being awesome. Both are good ingredients though Not sure if it gives you more fights, on the one side its attracting more people that want to gank it, on the other side more people run from it. I think it evens out in the end. Probably true. But you get more style points for using the cyna. Originally by: Response to bitter carebear tears in local [19:44:46] CCP Incognito > sorry i can't talk about game mechanics. you need to use your brains and figure it out.
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.02.13 00:08:00 - [175] Originally by: Tony SoXai I wouldn't say the Dramiel is overpowered, but it is too fast. EFT Dramiel with MWD - 5000 m/s Claw with MWD - 4000 m/s This shouldn't be. It should be fast, but not THAT fast. And the dronebay. Dram should not get a drone bay, period. But if you take it away, it loses too much dps and becomes underpowered; boost the dramiel's turret damage and lose the drone bay. Those are my thoughts on this subject. you can get the ares to go at 5km/sec too. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Tony SoXai	Posted - 2011.02.13 00:18:00 - [176] Edited by: Tony SoXai on 13/02/2011 00:18:39 Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Tony SoXai I wouldn't say the Dramiel is overpowered, but it is too fast. EFT Dramiel with MWD - 5000 m/s Claw with MWD - 4000 m/s This shouldn't be. It should be fast, but not THAT fast. And the dronebay. Dram should not get a drone bay, period. But if you take it away, it loses too much dps and becomes underpowered; boost the dramiel's turret damage and lose the drone bay. Those are my thoughts on this subject. you can get the ares to go at 5km/sec too. OMG an INTERCEPTOR goes really fast WTF. Newsflash: Dramiel is an Angel ship and therefore it is obvious it should be lightning fast. But hey, how much faster is the Cynabal than the Vaga? Not much. So why should the Dramiel go 2500 m/s faster than the Jaguar (dram being the equivalant of a cyna, jag being the equivelent of a vaga), and 1000 m/s than the fastest pure Minmatar ship in the game (Claw)? Anyone who disagrees with this can NOT be taken seriously.
Zhim'Fufu	Posted - 2011.02.13 00:25:00 - [177] Originally by: Tony SoXai So why should the Dramiel go 2500 m/s faster than the Jaguar Because ccp gave assault frigates too much mass gimping their speed. Plus the jag is the sole lucky ship in the entire line to have passable speed to begin with. This has nothing to do with the dram. Originally by: Tony SoXai and 1000 m/s than the fastest pure Minmatar ship in the game (Claw)? Anyone who disagrees with this can NOT be taken seriously. Pirate ship > t2 ship by design. Originally by: Response to bitter carebear tears in local [19:44:46] CCP Incognito > sorry i can't talk about game mechanics. you need to use your brains and figure it out.
Tony SoXai	Posted - 2011.02.13 00:29:00 - [178] Edited by: Tony SoXai on 13/02/2011 00:30:13 Originally by: Zhim'Fufu Originally by: Tony SoXai So why should the Dramiel go 2500 m/s faster than the Jaguar Because ccp gave assault frigates too much mass gimping their speed. Plus the jag is the sole lucky ship in the entire line to have passable speed to begin with. This has nothing to do with the dram. Originally by: Tony SoXai and 1000 m/s than the fastest pure Minmatar ship in the game (Claw)? Anyone who disagrees with this can NOT be taken seriously. Pirate ship > t2 ship by design. You still haven't justified why it's that fast. It is too fast, end of story. You don't have to say "pirate ship>>T2" we know that. The Dram still shouldn't be faster than the Claw. Dramiel going 5000 m/s is like a Worm being able to get 20k ehp in a serious pvp fit. EI. Dramiel going twice as fast as the racial AF, Worm getting twice the ehp of the racial AF; both benefitting on what their ship design is good at.
Zhim'Fufu	Posted - 2011.02.13 00:33:00 - [179] Edited by: Zhim''Fufu on 13/02/2011 00:33:50 Originally by: Tony SoXai Edited by: Tony SoXai on 13/02/2011 00:30:13 Originally by: Zhim'Fufu Originally by: Tony SoXai So why should the Dramiel go 2500 m/s faster than the Jaguar Because ccp gave assault frigates too much mass gimping their speed. Plus the jag is the sole lucky ship in the entire line to have passable speed to begin with. This has nothing to do with the dram. Originally by: Tony SoXai and 1000 m/s than the fastest pure Minmatar ship in the game (Claw)? Anyone who disagrees with this can NOT be taken seriously. Pirate ship > t2 ship by design. You still haven't justified why it's that fast. It is too fast, end of story. You don't have to say "pirate ship>>T2" we know that. The Dram still shouldn't be faster than the Claw. Dramiel going 5000 m/s is like a Worm being able to get 20k ehp in a serious pvp fit. EI. Dramiel going twice as fast as the racial AF, Worm getting twice the ehp of the racial AF; both benefitting on what their ship design is good at. lol Finally we get to what should be the rage topic of the moment. Why are the rest of the pirate ships so crap? Originally by: Response to bitter carebear tears in local [19:44:46] CCP Incognito > sorry i can't talk about game mechanics. you need to use your brains and figure it out.
Tony SoXai	Posted - 2011.02.13 00:51:00 - [180] Perhaps that is the case. Perhaps.
freshspree	Posted - 2011.02.13 03:19:00 - [181] LOL, you guys still dishing it out on this topic. It easy and simple to understand. The dram was created to be the fastest ship in game. Same as the other cartel ships. The only thing i'll agree on is the reduction of it's EHP and a little increase in align time which makes perfect sense(X0.75). I don't see a reason why the dramiel shouldn't be better than most intys or afs in a way or two. This topic has reached the devs and the dramiel is gonna get hit by the nerf bat. Let's see how it makes your so called bad lives better. "CCPÆs response was that it ranked rebalancing overpowered ships and items as a higher priority than balancing unused items û fixing problems with things that are being used rather to fixing problems with those that are not. The CSM responded that when something is not being used, that is a symptom of a problem. That was acknowledged by CCP but did not change the priority, for example the Dramiel is causing problems while the Destroyers are reducing the variety of gameplay for players, as unfortunate that uselessness is" I'll linky http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/csm/CSM_CCP_Meetings-part-3_15-17_12_2010.pdf
Faffywaffy Fremen Sietch DarkSide.	Posted - 2011.02.13 05:29:00 - [182] Originally by: Ophelia Ursus ...They're obviously long overdue for a good nerfbatting; [dramiels] killed off diversity in frigate pvp to the point that the only reason to fly any other combat frigate that is not a tackle inty is so that people will be willing to engage you. This. This is why the dramiel needs a nerf. All the other arguments are either wrong or unimportant. The Cynabal and the Mach are fine.
freshspree	Posted - 2011.02.13 05:37:00 - [183] Originally by: Faffywaffy Originally by: Ophelia Ursus ...They're obviously long overdue for a good nerfbatting; [dramiels] killed off diversity in frigate pvp to the point that the only reason to fly any other combat frigate that is not a tackle inty is so that people will be willing to engage you. This. This is why the dramiel needs a nerf. All the other arguments are either wrong or unimportant. The Cynabal and the Mach are fine. Lol, My head hurts...
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2011.02.13 05:41:00 - [184] Originally by: Zhim'Fufu Angel cartel are awesome solo boats if you pick your fights vs even superiour forces. You're not making a good case for leaving the ships unnerfed. ùùùùù Originally by: CCP Big Dumb Object When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed.
Sphit Ker Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2011.02.13 05:42:00 - [185] Originally by: freshspree (snip) "CCPÆs response was that it ranked rebalancing overpowered ships and items as a higher priority than balancing unused items û fixing problems with things that are being used rather to fixing problems with those that are not. The CSM responded that when something is not being used, that is a symptom of a problem. That was acknowledged by CCP but did not change the priority, for example the Dramiel is causing problems while the Destroyers are reducing the variety of gameplay for players, as unfortunate that uselessness is" I'll linky http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/csm/CSM_CCP_Meetings-part-3_15-17_12_2010.pdf Reading this gave me a strong dTja vu but I canÆt remember from where exactly. The following statement is not my signature. The preceding statement is my signature.
Zhim'Fufu	Posted - 2011.02.13 05:50:00 - [186] Originally by: Seriously Bored Originally by: Zhim'Fufu Angel cartel are awesome solo boats if you pick your fights vs even superiour forces. You're not making a good case for leaving the ships unnerfed. People complained you can't fit most ships for solo pvp and fight a wide variety of targets. CCP fixed this with fairly expensive faction ships that take two races training to use well. Now people complain about solo pvp being too hard to counter? ffs.. Originally by: Response to bitter carebear tears in local [19:44:46] CCP Incognito > sorry i can't talk about game mechanics. you need to use your brains and figure it out.
VannyDaCruz	Posted - 2011.02.13 05:57:00 - [187] Actually considering the Dramiel, both the Slicer and Daredevil can beat it. Many ships can be the cynabal as they can beat the machariel. The problem with these ships is not that they are OP in combat, but its that they have the GTFO ability others in the same class do not have. This is NOT true in the frigate lineup where the slicer and daredevil are arguably just as good as the dramiel in certain situations, but less diverse in their capabilities. The cynabal in itself is not overpowered. It is a supervaga / fleet stabber. Its just that the other pirate ships in the lineup is rather weak ie. Gila, Vigilant, Ashimmu. The problem with the Gila and Vigilant is their low agility combined with their ease to get their ass kicked in combat. The Ashimmu is simply too slow. The machariel is interesting, it is pretty much the only widely used PVP faction battleship. And for a good reason, faction battleships are expensive. Bhaalgorns stand out because they provide important EWAR, and does its job well with an absurd tank. The Vindicator has the same problem as all blaster ships - they suck in gangs larger than 10, because they will get instapopped before they damage. The nightmare is a PVE ship basically, and the rattlesnake echos that. In conclusion, the problem with faction ships is its PRICE in comparison to its susceptibility to getting primaried. The Angel lineup makes sure that the pilot has a say in whether he wants to die or not. The ability to disengage is the name of the game - all experienced roaming gangs are NANO or SNIPER or logi supported armor BSHIPS. (Alpha maels aren't gang-work related). In a fight you cannot dictate the amount of ships per side, there is always the chance of reinforcements or hotdrops, and in this case you will either be nano/sniper and get away, or die. The only solution is to improve survivability of faction ships, which is hard, because of Goddamn Rapiers and Arazus.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Heretic Army	Posted - 2011.02.13 06:01:00 - [188] Originally by: Faffywaffy Originally by: Ophelia Ursus ...They're obviously long overdue for a good nerfbatting; [dramiels] killed off diversity in frigate pvp to the point that the only reason to fly any other combat frigate that is not a tackle inty is so that people will be willing to engage you. This. This is why the dramiel needs a nerf. All the other arguments are either wrong or unimportant. The Cynabal and the Mach are fine. It is a strawman argument and nothing more. We are not playing samurai honour spaceship duels online here but frigates fill a particular role. The reason for not using elite frigates is that they are disposable, bringing a 100 million pirate frigate to do the job of a 15 million interceptor or assault frigate is absolute nonsense as they dont do it any better, in case of inties even worse, and die just as fast. As a matter of fact, you dont see them flying around that much either, maybe one out of 15 frigates I see in FW lowsec is a Dramiel. Those claims that they are everywhere are just made up. And if some of the elite pvpers would stop blobbing every solo neutral they find to **** instantly, people would stop gravitating towards the fastest ships available.
ARES 003	Posted - 2011.02.13 06:06:00 - [189] Originally by: Lilith Velkor And if some of the elite pvpers would stop blobbing every solo neutral they find to **** instantly, people would stop gravitating towards the fastest ships available. Said the member of Heretic-Blobbing-Camping-Amamake-Army :)
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Heretic Army	Posted - 2011.02.13 06:13:00 - [190] Originally by: ARES 003 Originally by: Lilith Velkor And if some of the elite pvpers would stop blobbing every solo neutral they find to **** instantly, people would stop gravitating towards the fastest ships available. Said the member of Heretic-Blobbing-Camping-Amamake-Army :) Gatecamps are business, if you get caught you made a donation to our corp wallet. Its that simple, no need to be bitter about it. If you had any idea what you are talking about you knew we engage against the odds on a regular basis, but since you are just a nameless alt of somebody that was stupid enough to jump unscouted into lowsec I dont expect you to know anything.
ARES 003	Posted - 2011.02.13 06:17:00 - [191] Actually this is my main, I haven't been playing for long, It just seems like you guys are at least a small part of the problem you just described. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe you guys don't do exactly what you just said made people fly the fastest ships :(
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Heretic Army	Posted - 2011.02.13 06:25:00 - [192] Originally by: ARES 003 Actually this is my main, I haven't been playing for long, It just seems like you guys are at least a small part of the problem you just described. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe you guys don't do exactly what you just said made people fly the fastest ships :( Let me try to explain, pirates camp gates to make ISK. We kill your ship, take the modules and cargo to sell them. Maybe ransom your pod. We use the money for corp reimbursement programs and such. Basically like running missions if you want to see it that way. Now for actual pvp, if I see a frigate gang of 6 guys, I'll grab a cruiser and see what happens. Try to run your frigate gang of 6 into NC space for example, and you get a response fleet of 25 battlecruisers, recons and such. That is the reason fast ships are popular, not because you run into something by bad timing, but because people in general tend to use absolutely excessive force against known odds instead of going for a fight, even if its a lopsided fight.
Ophelia Ursus	Posted - 2011.02.13 07:21:00 - [193] Originally by: Lilith Velkor As a matter of fact, you dont see them flying around that much either, maybe one out of 15 frigates I see in FW lowsec is a Dramiel. Those claims that they are everywhere are just made up. http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20 Hey, look, the only frigate on that list that is not a bomber is... the Dram. But no, they're not everywhere, no sirree... Quote: stop blobbing Quote: Heretic Army Oh, wait, you were just trolling. Nvm! Signature removed.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Heretic Army	Posted - 2011.02.13 07:54:00 - [194] Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 13/02/2011 07:55:55 Originally by: Ophelia Ursus http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20 Hey, look, the only frigate on that list that is not a bomber is... the Dram. But no, they're not everywhere, no sirree... Get a grip, that statistic sums up shiptypes that made it on a particular killmail. A theme gang of 20 Dramiels adds 20 points to that statistic for every ship they kill. The single Dramiel that is sitting on a nullsec chokepoint camp with a gang of 20 adds one for every kill. Its a meaningless metric but you probably know that. Just for fun, here are the frigates that are on my onboard scanner as of the time of this post in Amamake: Tristan Rifter Malediction Merlin Rifter Ishkur Rifter Jaguar Dramiel Punisher Crow Daredevil Stiletto Firetail Dramiels everywhere, I tell you! There is at least one!
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2011.02.13 08:05:00 - [195] Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 13/02/2011 08:10:54 Originally by: freshspree LOL, you guys still dishing it out on this topic. It easy and simple to understand. The dram was created to be the fastest ship in game. Same as the other cartel ships... If it is designed to be the rich mans super interceptor, then why on earth does it need fitting room for all that tank? 'Ceptors can go as fast as the Dramiel but only if they fill their lows with speed leaving no slots for anything else. Originally by: VannyDaCruz Actually considering the Dramiel, both the Slicer and Daredevil can beat it... I spent the better part of half a billion in losses to come up with a Slicer that can best the most commonly flown Dramiel fits while not sucking balls against everything else ... and there are still some fits I have no hope against. DD is by far the best bet. Originally by: Lilith Velkor ...do it any better, in case of inties even worse, and die just as fast.... Same lock speed, comparable lock range, much higher speed and god-like agility .. if you die in a Dramiel in the same situations that gets ceptors killed you are doing it wrong. The reason why Dramiel numbers have gone down in the FW areas is largely due to Assault Caracals which everyone and their mother have ready to counter the damn things plus the presence of more destroyers per system than in all of null combined Originally by: ARES 003 Said the member of Heretic-Blobbing-Camping-Amamake-Army :) At least they are consistent and are not lame non-flashy gate campers who jump into high-sec at the first sign of an armed ship .. just sayin' Originally by: Lilith Velkor Dramiels everywhere, I tell you! There is at least one! Since the revamp it has been the only frigate on the list of most used ships .. only other frig hull on that list are bombers. Interceptors are not represented at all which was an impossibility prior to faction buff.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Heretic Army	Posted - 2011.02.13 08:24:00 - [196] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Lilith Velkor ...do it any better, in case of inties even worse, and die just as fast.... Same lock speed, comparable lock range, much higher speed and god-like agility .. if you die in a Dramiel in the same situations that gets ceptors killed you are doing it wrong. Dramiel tacklers die just as easy as Stiletto tacklers. Their extra speed is nullified by their huge sig radius, EHP is about equal. Let me ask you, if you have say 5 interceptors and one Dramiel landing on your group, which one do you primary first? Obviously the Dramiel, its the most valuable kill, and goes down as easy as the other ones. And while warpspeed doesnt make a big difference in one situation, it is a huge asset in another. A hyperspatial velocity rigged Stiletto has the clear edge there. Originally by: Hirana Yoshida The reason why Dramiel numbers have gone down in the FW areas is largely due to Assault Caracals which everyone and their mother have ready to counter the damn things plus the presence of more destroyers per system than in all of null combined There are simply more frigates used in general in FW areas. It isnt really that people bring specific counters, it is just the fact that if you are a frigate pilot in a fleet engagement, you aim to remove immediate threats first. Dramiels just get swarmed instantly and wiped out, if you are in a combat interceptor you are just one among many and dont draw that much attention.
Ophelia Ursus	Posted - 2011.02.13 08:43:00 - [197] Originally by: Lilith Velkor Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 13/02/2011 07:55:55 Originally by: Ophelia Ursus http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20 Hey, look, the only frigate on that list that is not a bomber is... the Dram. But no, they're not everywhere, no sirree... Its a meaningless metric but you probably know that. No, it's a sample of the majority of all kills recorded across the entirety of the game over the last month. It's pretty much the only relevant metric when the assertion you're defending is "the dramiel has largely displaced other combat frigates." It's certainly a hell of a lot more meaningful and representative than a single snapshot of a single system. Signature removed.
Copine Callmeknau Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams The KWFL Republic	Posted - 2011.02.13 08:45:00 - [198] Originally by: Kingwood Edited by: Kingwood on 12/02/2011 12:08:49 The only one making some sense in this thread is Copine (except for his quoted numbers - Cane doing 900+ DPS to 30km? wat). ahhh sorry, I wasn't very clear on my last post. My cane gets 700+ from 30-32km with barrage and jav HAMs, 900+ from 20-22km with RF EMP and CN HAMs, 950+ from 11-12km with Hail and rage HAMs. 1100 or so with Hail, RHAMS and top rack heated Granted I have basically maxed skills and an expensive set of dmg implants, so those numbers aren't really achievable by the avg EVE player. Stunning EVE Online Theme for PS3
Ophelia Ursus	Posted - 2011.02.13 08:49:00 - [199] Originally by: Copine Callmeknau Originally by: Kingwood Edited by: Kingwood on 12/02/2011 12:08:49 The only one making some sense in this thread is Copine (except for his quoted numbers - Cane doing 900+ DPS to 30km? wat). ahhh sorry, I wasn't very clear on my last post. My cane gets 700+ from 30-32km with barrage and jav HAMs, 900+ from 20-22km with RF EMP and CN HAMs, 950+ from 11-12km with Hail and rage HAMs. 1100 or so with Hail, RHAMS and top rack heated Granted I have basically maxed skills and an expensive set of dmg implants, so those numbers aren't really achievable by the avg EVE player. ITT, we do not understand how falloff works. Signature removed.
Patient 2428190 DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School	Posted - 2011.02.13 08:54:00 - [200] The dramiel needs to be slower. While its not perfect and it is certainly beatable. The main problem you need to solve when you are planning your frigate fit is "How can I fit this ship to deal with Dramiels?" I've flown Dramiels and I've killed good Dramiel pilots in Daredevils, Jaguars and Thrashers. For the Cynabal, I'd say it doesn't need a nerf, but the Phantasm could use a boost back to the old levels to bring it inline with the other pirate faction cruisers. ...Then when you stopped to think about it. All you really said was Lalala.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2011.02.13 08:57:00 - [201] Originally by: Lilith Velkor Let me ask you, if you have say 5 interceptors and one Dramiel landing on your group, which one do you primary first? Obviously the Dramiel, its the most valuable kill, and goes down as easy as the other ones... I could care less about cost. Reason why the Dramiel has to die first is because it becomes immune to everything once it switches to AB .. the window of opportunity, especially for larger ships, is very small. Most of the sub-BC activity in FW happens in plexes so nothing is getting swarmed by anything (well, sometimes but that's just run-of-the-mill blobbing ). In that environment the interceptors are sub-par to say the least, even AFs have a hard time: T1 cruisers, faction frigates and destroyers is where its at. PS: Give the Hook a spin. Best anti-frigate frigate around and gives HACs/Recons a run for their money
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Heretic Army	Posted - 2011.02.13 09:02:00 - [202] Originally by: Ophelia Ursus No, it's a sample of the majority of all kills recorded across the entirety of the game over the last month. It's pretty much the only relevant metric when the assertion you're defending is "the dramiel has largely displaced other combat frigates." You are trying to argue it replaced other combat frigates, but the statistic you are quoting does not give any data in that regard. It only shows how many ships of each type ended up on killmails, it does not say anything about the kill itself. Look at stealth bombers for example, using that logic bombers replaced combat frigates as well. This is obviously not true, all we are seeing is the effect of bombers being used in groups, for every individual kill from our statistic it is safe to assume we have about 8-10 bombers on the mail. Suddenly our 70k number shrinks to only 7-8k. It is simple, if you are arguing a particular ship replaced another one completely in its role, you need to present some facts that support your point, for example solo takedowns when you are arguing combat frigates have been obsoleted.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2011.02.13 09:12:00 - [203] Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 13/02/2011 09:14:01 Originally by: Lilith Velkor ...This is obviously not true, all we are seeing is the effect of bombers being used in groups, for every individual kill from our statistic it is safe to assume we have about 8-10 bombers on the mail... Bombers are not only pack animals but AoE platforms, that is the only reason for their presence on the list. In that light how the hell do you explain that the Dramiel is on more mails than the most used bomber if it was not because it is in fact omni-present? Edit: Why is being the devil's advocate so much more fun?
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Heretic Army	Posted - 2011.02.13 09:41:00 - [204] Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 13/02/2011 09:44:10 Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Lilith Velkor ...This is obviously not true, all we are seeing is the effect of bombers being used in groups, for every individual kill from our statistic it is safe to assume we have about 8-10 bombers on the mail... Bombers are not only pack animals but AoE platforms, that is the only reason for their presence on the list. In that light how the hell do you explain that the Dramiel is on more mails than the most used bomber if it was not because it is in fact omni-present? Edit: Why is being the devil's advocate so much more fun? AoE weaponry is one theory, you wont be able to prove it from that dataset though. Personally I think its more the fact that they are generally used in groups and almost never solo, but I cant prove that either. See the thing is, I dont need to explain anything as I'm not basing any claim on that dataset. Though if you claim a certain ship replaced every other competitor in its class and base that claim on this dataset, you should be prepared to prove your theory is sound. A simple "look at that number" does not prove anything. The simple truth is that the particular statistic is too generic to make a sound conclusion. Combine it with other statistics, for example solo kills by shiptype or generate a weighted ranking based on number of participants and you might have a case. Its similar to the Drake whines, people look at those numbers and claim the Drake replaced all battlecruisers. But they totally forget that gang size and composition plays a big role in compiling that statistic, Drakes being used en-masse in large-scale engagements does not make it the most popular battlecruiser by default. I'd even say the Hurricane is the more popular choice in small gang scenarios and day-to-day pvp, at least that is my personal experience in the local area. Those scenarios happen a lot more but fail to produce enough participants on individual killmails to tweak the numbers accordingly though.
Kepakh	Posted - 2011.02.13 09:48:00 - [205] Originally by: Lilith Velkor Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 13/02/2011 09:44:10 Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Lilith Velkor ...This is obviously not true, all we are seeing is the effect of bombers being used in groups, for every individual kill from our statistic it is safe to assume we have about 8-10 bombers on the mail... Bombers are not only pack animals but AoE platforms, that is the only reason for their presence on the list. In that light how the hell do you explain that the Dramiel is on more mails than the most used bomber if it was not because it is in fact omni-present? Edit: Why is being the devil's advocate so much more fun? AoE weaponry is one theory, you wont be able to prove it from that dataset though. Personally I think its more the fact that they are generally used in groups and almost never solo, but I cant prove that either. See the thing is, I dont need to explain anything as I'm not basing any claim on that dataset. Though if you claim a certain ship replaced every other competitor in its class and base that claim on this dataset, you should be prepared to prove your theory is sound. A simple "look at that number" does not prove anything. The simple truth is that the particular statistic is too generic to make a sound conclusion. Combine it with other statistics, for example solo kills by shiptype or generate a weighted ranking based on number of participants and you might have a case. Its similar to the Drake whines, people look at those numbers and claim the Drake replaced all battlecruisers. But they totally forget that gang size and composition plays a big role in compiling that statistic, Drakes being used en-masse in large-scale engagements does not make it the most popular battlecruiser by default. I'd even say the Hurricane is the more popular choice in small gang scenarios and day-to-day pvp, at least that is my personal experience in the local area. Those scenarios happen a lot more but fail to produce enough participants on individual killmails to tweak the numbers accordingly though. Doh, you fail so hard... But that is what happens when you are faced with facts.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Heretic Army	Posted - 2011.02.13 09:52:00 - [206] Originally by: Kepakh Doh, you fail so hard... But that is what happens when you are faced with facts. Stop trolling and let the adults talk, thank you very much.
Kepakh	Posted - 2011.02.13 10:04:00 - [207] Originally by: Lilith Velkor Stop trolling and let the adults talk, thank you very much. Dramiel and Cynabal are the ONLY FACTION SHIPS in TOP 20 and Dramiel is the ONLY FRIG(apart from bombers due their AOE) in TOP 20. There is not much more needed to be said for the obvious so you might as well stop trolling and indeed let adults to handle the discussion.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Heretic Army	Posted - 2011.02.13 10:09:00 - [208] Originally by: Kepakh Dramiel and Cynabal are the ONLY FACTION SHIPS in TOP 20 and Dramiel is the ONLY FRIG(apart from bombers due their AOE) in TOP 20. Place #18 in that statistic is the Nyx, this is a supercarrier. Are you trying to argue there are more Nyxes flying around than Rifters?
Kepakh	Posted - 2011.02.13 10:14:00 - [209] Originally by: Lilith Velkor Place #18 in that statistic is the Nyx, this is a supercarrier. Are you trying to argue there are more Nyxes flying around than Rifters? No, but it would support the argument that Nyxes get more kills than Rifters and more kills than any other supercap. There is no point in trying to imply false conclusions and put it into someone else mouth. It just make you look stupid.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2011.02.13 10:16:00 - [210] Originally by: Lilith Velkor Place #18 in that statistic is the Nyx, this is a supercarrier. Are you trying to argue there are more Nyxes flying around than Rifters? I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case .. hahahahaha.
Copine Callmeknau Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams The KWFL Republic	Posted - 2011.02.13 10:20:00 - [211] Originally by: Ophelia Ursus Originally by: Copine Callmeknau Originally by: Kingwood Edited by: Kingwood on 12/02/2011 12:08:49 The only one making some sense in this thread is Copine (except for his quoted numbers - Cane doing 900+ DPS to 30km? wat). ahhh sorry, I wasn't very clear on my last post. My cane gets 700+ from 30-32km with barrage and jav HAMs, 900+ from 20-22km with RF EMP and CN HAMs, 950+ from 11-12km with Hail and rage HAMs. 1100 or so with Hail, RHAMS and top rack heated Granted I have basically maxed skills and an expensive set of dmg implants, so those numbers aren't really achievable by the avg EVE player. ITT, we do not understand how falloff works. I understand perfectly well how falloff works you dolt. The real question is why do you believe it necessary to calculate falloff damage reduction when comparing the dps of AC's that have the same falloff and the same optimal? protip: the damage reduction (in %) will be the same. Redundant maths and wasted time ftw I guess... Stunning EVE Online Theme for PS3
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Heretic Army	Posted - 2011.02.13 11:01:00 - [212] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Originally by: Lilith Velkor Place #18 in that statistic is the Nyx, this is a supercarrier. Are you trying to argue there are more Nyxes flying around than Rifters? I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case .. hahahahaha. Aside from the sad truth that there are indeed too many supercaps around as the last QEN did show, it is just another example of how arbitrary the data we are looking at is. Supercarriers are not solo or small gang ships. If you assume there are about 10 Nyxes on each mail, which is entirely reasonable if you look at the typical capital kill with supers involved, that already inflates our numbers tenfold. So the 16k kills we see are in reality around 1600 kills. That is undeniably still a lot, but certainly not more than the amount of kills that have Rifters involved each month. It is just that the Rifters dont come in packs of 10 or more, and are not a very popular choice in situations where masses of kills are generated in one run like large-scale fleet engagements. Now this doesnt even account for damage done or anything like that, you can be on a killmail without having any impact on the kill whatsoever. Hence what I'm saying, the metric is largely useless. In my opinion, a good metric would be solo kills broken down by shiptype, and gang-related kills broken down by damage done and only partially awarded to the contributing shiptype according to the amount of damage done.
teh mole	Posted - 2011.02.13 11:04:00 - [213] I haven't looked at all these posts but has anybody mentioned the unprobable, 1k dps, 15k alpha, at 170km Machariel? 2 shots from that beast and most T1 battle cruiser fits (except the drake, ferox, and prophecy) will die. It can effectively solo camp a lowsec gate without a single counter. 2 or 3 of them in a gate camp would sure to annoy a many lowsec dweller. [Machariel, Monster] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer ECCM - Ladar II ECCM - Ladar II ECCM - Ladar II ECCM - Ladar II Sensor Booster II 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L [empty high slot] Large Ancillary Current Router I Large Ionic Field Projector II Large Ionic Field Projector II Warrior II x5 Warrior II x5 Hornet EC-300 x10 You need a loki with a mind link (sig reduction) and a set of low-grade jackal implants to make this work optimally. Can hit from about 170km with republic EMP.
Lusien Numienesse Amarr	Posted - 2011.02.13 13:41:00 - [214] Originally by: teh mole It can effectively solo camp a lowsec gate without a single counter. 2 or 3 of them in a gate camp would sure to annoy a many lowsec dweller. Covert ops gets warp in, gang comes in and swiftly takes down your Machariels with no tank.
Kingwood Amarr Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2011.02.13 13:57:00 - [215] Why is this thread still going. I'll just repeat myself: Cynabal and Machariel are fine. Dramiel could need a little nerf, but only because it is pretty much a better replacement for every frigate in the game, be it interceptor or assault frig. That is the reason why I'd support a Dramiel nerf, not because it "enables people to solo PvP against larger numbers". Solo/Small scale PvP'ers tend to gravitate towards fast ships because most idiots in Eve like to bring overwhelming odds against a solo roamer. Fast ships are good, stop whining. I could fly a Cynabal with maxed out skills, but I still prefer the Hurricane, btw.
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2011.02.13 14:19:00 - [216] Oy. Eight pages. Let's just buff hybrids and call it a day. I'm not sure I care about this quite as much as I used to. ùùùùù Originally by: CCP Big Dumb Object When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed.
Templar Dane Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2011.02.13 15:55:00 - [217] Originally by: Seriously Bored Oy. Eight pages. Let's just buff hybrids and call it a day. I'm not sure I care about this quite as much as I used to. I still want to see the ****ty pirate ships buffed.
Copine Callmeknau Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams The KWFL Republic	Posted - 2011.02.13 18:35:00 - [218] Originally by: Kingwood Originally by: Copine Callmeknau Originally by: Ophelia Ursus ITT, we do not understand how falloff works. I understand perfectly well how falloff works you dolt. The real question is why do you believe it necessary to calculate falloff damage reduction when comparing the dps of AC's that have the same falloff and the same optimal? protip: the damage reduction (in %) will be the same. Redundant maths and wasted time ftw I guess... What you're stating is your Damage in AC optimal. You do not get 900 DPS at 20 km with HAMs and EMP M. yussss I know this. as far as 900dps @ 20km goes, obv you do not do your full damage from that far, I give the numbers on the assumption that anybody who PvP's already knows to take damage loss into account, and also will be attempting to close to optimal range. I've basically written it in shorthand, expanded v is this '900+dps in optimal, start shooting @20km', much easier to write it as 900+dps from 20km. 900dps being max dmg possible, 20km being max effective range. Moot point as the guy who tried to troll me took my post out of context ^^ Reason I posted dps figures in the first place was comparing cyna with emp to cane with barrage. Because both ships guns have the same range (give or take a k), I didn't find it necessary to bother calculating the real world dps figure. Both ships suffer the same relative dps loss, you can get away with using optimal range dps values. eg. optimal dmg on a cane with barrage and javhams 710ish dps, cyna with emp and HH II's 600ish dps (16% difference). Real world dps @ 30km on cane is 420ish dps, cyna 350ish dps (16.5% difference) Sooo yeh, there's a slight deviation due to the extra k or so optimal from barrage, but it's statistically insignificant imo. If you and your opponent are using the same range guns there is no need to calculate damage loss from falloff. You will be doing the same amount more relative damage that you will do in your optimal range. Stunning EVE Online Theme for PS3
Zhim'Fufu	Posted - 2011.02.14 03:24:00 - [219] Originally by: Seriously Bored Oy. Eight pages. Let's just buff hybrids and call it a day. I'm not sure I care about this quite as much as I used to. I like how the thread went from zomg nerf angel cartel speed because I can't catch and kill it in my slow arse ship to zomg angel cartel pwn in all roles so nerf all aspects of it nao plx. fuvking s&m trolls need to be put down imho. Originally by: Response to bitter carebear tears in local [19:44:46] CCP Incognito > sorry i can't talk about game mechanics. you need to use your brains and figure it out.
Van Steiza Battlestars Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2011.02.14 11:21:00 - [220] Edited by: Van Steiza on 14/02/2011 11:26:57 Edited by: Van Steiza on 14/02/2011 11:26:15 Edited by: Van Steiza on 14/02/2011 11:25:50 Edited by: Van Steiza on 14/02/2011 11:25:07 Edited by: Van Steiza on 14/02/2011 11:21:41 I dont know about you guys.... But ive been killing LOTS of dramiels vagabonds n what not in my Harbinger...... Dual web harbi.... but then im not your average pvp'er. Seee look at all these little kills. There perfectly fine as they are.. Ive killed cynabals and what not with the exact same fit. To say there impossible to kill is ******ed. All it takes is a little technieque and abit of intelligence and youve got yourself a nice killmail to look at. ----------------------------------------------- Stop removing my Sig its fine!!!! Nerf Moderaters.
Salvia Olima The All-Seeing Eye Atlas.	Posted - 2011.02.14 11:30:00 - [221] To the op: learn to fit tracking disruptors and fly TD bonused ships against Angel ships, this easy.
Kepakh	Posted - 2011.02.14 11:34:00 - [222] Originally by: Van Steiza But ive been killing LOTS of dramiels vagabonds n what not in my Harbinger...... Dual web harbi.... but then im not your average pvp'er. On the contrary, you are the very average. 1) 4 Dramiels kills out of 88 frigate kills isn't 'A LOT'. 3 of them were killed a BC, the last one was gang **. 2) Your most flown(and only?) frigate is guess what...Dramiel.** 3) Personal killboards means nothing. Little technique, yeah? You seriously want to make some point here?
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2011.02.14 11:40:00 - [223] Originally by: Copine Callmeknau I'm back pedalling and trying to e-peen numbers in there (1100 dps from a cane wtf) and still don't know how falloff works. Either that or I'm just stating numbers like an idiot and it's uncertain which is worse Yup.
Van Steiza Battlestars Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2011.02.14 11:42:00 - [224] Originally by: Kepakh Originally by: Van Steiza But ive been killing LOTS of dramiels vagabonds n what not in my Harbinger...... Dual web harbi.... but then im not your average pvp'er. On the contrary, you are the very average. 1) 4 Dramiels kills out of 88 frigate kills isn't 'A LOT'. 3 of them were killed a BC, the last one was gang **. 2) Your most flown(and only?) frigate is guess what...Dramiel.** 3) Personal killboards means nothing. Little technique, yeah? You seriously want to make some point here? Mate i was talking about alot of kills in the binger not OVERALL. For the last 2 days dramiel wise that is alot. I have other chars i use to i was just providing a view to show it isnt impossible People complain that you need a recon or recon(s) to counter dramiels n cynabals and what not but thats not true. They often say that a you cant kill dramiels n what not easily but it is quite easy yeah is in a harbinger but the majority of people would not be able to kill that dramiel if they get tackled alone by it due to the fact it will get under there guns a single web doesnt work 2 webs definately. My point is it isnt impossible. ----------------------------------------------- Stop removing my Sig its fine!!!! Nerf Moderaters.
Kepakh	Posted - 2011.02.14 11:48:00 - [225] Originally by: Van Steiza My point is it isnt impossible. No one is arguing that. People are arguing that Dramiel is way better than any other comparable frigate such as AF or even other faction crap and that it is way too fast while still having lots of HP and damage. That is what is balancing about, not about if you can kill it or not. It is about if pros and cons of the ship are even to ships of the same class or given frame. Dramiel has no cons at all.
Kingwood Amarr Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2011.02.14 11:49:00 - [226] Originally by: Van Steiza Originally by: Kepakh Originally by: Van Steiza But ive been killing LOTS of dramiels vagabonds n what not in my Harbinger...... Dual web harbi.... but then im not your average pvp'er. On the contrary, you are the very average. 1) 4 Dramiels kills out of 88 frigate kills isn't 'A LOT'. 3 of them were killed a BC, the last one was gang **. 2) Your most flown(and only?) frigate is guess what...Dramiel.** 3) Personal killboards means nothing. Little technique, yeah? You seriously want to make some point here? Mate i was talking about alot of kills in the binger not OVERALL. For the last 2 days dramiel wise that is alot. I have other chars i use to i was just providing a view to show it isnt impossible People complain that you need a recon or recon(s) to counter dramiels n cynabals and what not but thats not true. They often say that a you cant kill dramiels n what not easily but it is quite easy yeah is in a harbinger but the majority of people would not be able to kill that dramiel if they get tackled alone by it due to the fact it will get under there guns a single web doesnt work 2 webs definately. My point is it isnt impossible. Yeah, you sure are a special Eve player being able to kill Dramiels while the rest of Eve gets killed by a single tackling Dramiel due to not having dual webs.
Van Steiza Battlestars Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2011.02.14 11:51:00 - [227] I do agree againts other ships of its class it can be overpowering yes. I have seen slicers DESTROY them however as well as ishkurs easily but as you say but yes they do have a tendancy for people to gravitate towards them due to there high survivability when compared to other frigates. This is simply due to peoples mentality though people hate loosing ships so they go for the one with the best chance of surviving in a fight (dramiels) ----------------------------------------------- Stop removing my Sig its fine!!!! Nerf Moderaters.
Van Steiza Battlestars Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2011.02.14 11:53:00 - [228] Originally by: Kingwood Originally by: Van Steiza Originally by: Kepakh Originally by: Van Steiza But ive been killing LOTS of dramiels vagabonds n what not in my Harbinger...... Dual web harbi.... but then im not your average pvp'er. On the contrary, you are the very average. 1) 4 Dramiels kills out of 88 frigate kills isn't 'A LOT'. 3 of them were killed a BC, the last one was gang **. 2) Your most flown(and only?) frigate is guess what...Dramiel.** 3) Personal killboards means nothing. Little technique, yeah? You seriously want to make some point here? Mate i was talking about alot of kills in the binger not OVERALL. For the last 2 days dramiel wise that is alot. I have other chars i use to i was just providing a view to show it isnt impossible People complain that you need a recon or recon(s) to counter dramiels n cynabals and what not but thats not true. They often say that a you cant kill dramiels n what not easily but it is quite easy yeah is in a harbinger but the majority of people would not be able to kill that dramiel if they get tackled alone by it due to the fact it will get under there guns a single web doesnt work 2 webs definately. My point is it isnt impossible. Yeah, you sure are a special Eve player being able to kill Dramiels while the rest of Eve gets killed by a single tackling Dramiel due to not having dual webs. Leave me alone lol its so early i need to word myself a little better lol :( ----------------------------------------------- Stop removing my Sig its fine!!!! Nerf Moderaters.
Copine Callmeknau Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams The KWFL Republic	Posted - 2011.02.14 13:17:00 - [229] Edited by: Copine Callmeknau on 14/02/2011 13:18:30 Originally by: Tzar'rim Originally by: Copine Callmeknau I'm back pedalling and trying to e-peen numbers in there (1100 dps from a cane wtf) and still don't know how falloff works. Either that or I'm just stating numbers like an idiot and it's uncertain which is worse I'm an idiot and should learn to shut my mouth before arguing with better/more knowledgeable players. You're right and I'm going to run my mouth regardless, this is because I fail as an EVE player and human being backup link for proof Stunning EVE Online Theme for PS3
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2011.02.14 13:27:00 - [230] Originally by: Copine Callmeknau Edited by: Copine Callmeknau on 14/02/2011 13:18:30 Originally by: Tzar'rim Originally by: Copine Callmeknau I'm back pedalling and trying to e-peen numbers in there (1100 dps from a cane wtf) and still don't know how falloff works. Either that or I'm just stating numbers like an idiot and it's uncertain which is worse I'm an idiot and should learn to shut my mouth before arguing with better/more knowledgeable players. You're right and I'm going to run my mouth regardless, this is because I fail as an EVE player and human being backup link for proof That's fine. Except most would fly the cane with dual neuts and stay well out of hail-range. But sure, anything is possible. - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen.
Copine Callmeknau Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams The KWFL Republic	Posted - 2011.02.14 13:32:00 - [231] Originally by: Misanth That's fine. Except most would fly the cane with dual neuts and stay well out of hail-range. But sure, anything is possible. Yeh that's all fine for cautious pilots I guess. I don't do that ^^ 17:1 k/d ratio over the 2-3 years, I think I'm doing fine the way I'm playing atm. Stunning EVE Online Theme for PS3
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2011.02.14 13:43:00 - [232] Edited by: Misanth on 14/02/2011 13:45:46 Originally by: Copine Callmeknau Originally by: Misanth That's fine. Except most would fly the cane with dual neuts and stay well out of hail-range. But sure, anything is possible. Yeh that's all fine for cautious pilots I guess. I don't do that ^^ 17:1 k/d ratio over the 2-3 years, I think I'm doing fine the way I'm playing atm. As I said, anything is possible. K/d ratio is the dumbest argument to pull ever tho, just FYI. For all we know, you could sit 100km+ in a SB, decloak+TP and cloak, to ***** millions of km at near zero risk. Yawn. Edit; to prove that point, I just checked BC. My main's at 70:1 K/D atm. That excludes hundreds of kills tho since those are POS mods and I refuse to give full API to killboards. Hera Darkthorn (rank 2 at BC) has 13:1 and El'Tar (rank 3) 11:1. I guess we both know better than them, then? - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen.
Copine Callmeknau Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams The KWFL Republic	Posted - 2011.02.14 13:52:00 - [233] Originally by: Misanth Edited by: Misanth on 14/02/2011 13:45:46 Originally by: Copine Callmeknau Originally by: Misanth That's fine. Except most would fly the cane with dual neuts and stay well out of hail-range. But sure, anything is possible. Yeh that's all fine for cautious pilots I guess. I don't do that ^^ 17:1 k/d ratio over the 2-3 years, I think I'm doing fine the way I'm playing atm. As I said, anything is possible. K/d ratio is the dumbest argument to pull ever tho, just FYI. For all we know, you could sit 100km+ in a SB, decloak+TP and cloak, to ***** millions of km at near zero risk. Yawn. Edit; to prove that point, I just checked BC. My main's at 70:1 K/D atm. That excludes hundreds of kills tho since those are POS mods and I refuse to give full API to killboards. Hera Darkthorn (rank 2 at BC) has 13:1 and El'Tar (rank 3) 11:1. I guess we both know better than them, then? Hah, yeh I see your point. I'll put it this way, that cane setup kills lots of stuff, got enough dps that you don't need to worry much about kiting the enemy, you can just go in close and unload and stuff dies well before you hit armour. I'm not claiming you can solo well piloted BS, but any BC/HAC/HIC/CS? Yeh you can make em cry or force em to warp. It suffers vs active tanked ships with tracking disrupters. Think of it as the minnie gankbrutix Stunning EVE Online Theme for PS3
Istvaan Shogaatsu Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2011.02.14 13:57:00 - [234] Originally by: Misanth Edit; to prove that point, I just checked BC. My main's at 70:1 K/D atm. That excludes hundreds of kills tho since those are POS mods and I refuse to give full API to killboards. Hera Darkthorn (rank 2 at BC) has 13:1 and El'Tar (rank 3) 11:1. I guess we both know better than them, then? On a lark, I just checked Battleclinic. Apparently I have a 7:1 kill ratio. Except I don't really post killmails at all. Never have.
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2011.02.14 14:04:00 - [235] Originally by: Copine Callmeknau Hah, yeh I see your point. I'll put it this way, that cane setup kills lots of stuff, got enough dps that you don't need to worry much about kiting the enemy, you can just go in close and unload and stuff dies well before you hit armour. I'm not claiming you can solo well piloted BS, but any BC/HAC/HIC/CS? Yeh you can make em cry or force em to warp. It suffers vs active tanked ships with tracking disrupters. Think of it as the minnie gankbrutix It probably has a nice surprise factor as well, since most will expect another ship. It lacks alot of the utility I'd prefer it to have tho, personally. But now we're derailing from the already derailed falloff discussion. This was about angel cartel ships, wasn't it? To get back on subject, I pretty much agree with below: Originally by: Kingwood Cynabal and Machariel are fine. Dramiel could need a little nerf, but only because it is pretty much a better replacement for every frigate in the game, be it interceptor or assault frig. - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen.
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2011.02.14 14:08:00 - [236] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Originally by: Misanth Edit; to prove that point, I just checked BC. My main's at 70:1 K/D atm. That excludes hundreds of kills tho since those are POS mods and I refuse to give full API to killboards. Hera Darkthorn (rank 2 at BC) has 13:1 and El'Tar (rank 3) 11:1. I guess we both know better than them, then? On a lark, I just checked Battleclinic. Apparently I have a 7:1 kill ratio. Except I don't really post killmails at all. Never have. Yah, I am being selective about what I post since a while back, and tend to not post at all with certain characters. Am seriously considering to stop post it altogether. There's very little benefit with posting mails, and alot by not doing so. But I guess for nullsec alliances, or mercs, I guess it's a nice weapon in the morale-boosting (or morale-killing) wars. But now we're derailing, again. - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen.
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2011.02.14 14:19:00 - [237] Originally by: Copine Callmeknau Edited by: Copine Callmeknau on 14/02/2011 13:18:30 Originally by: Tzar'rim Originally by: Copine Callmeknau I'm back pedalling and trying to e-peen numbers in there (1100 dps from a cane wtf) and still don't know how falloff works. Either that or I'm just stating numbers like an idiot and it's uncertain which is worse I'm an idiot and should learn to shut my mouth before arguing with better/more knowledgeable players. You're right and I'm going to run my mouth regardless, this is because I fail as an EVE player and human being backup link for proof When giving numbers you will ofcourse use overheat, because that's a logical comparison. Sure you'll USE it, but that's not the point. Also, still :hail:
Copine Callmeknau Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams The KWFL Republic	Posted - 2011.02.14 14:47:00 - [238] Originally by: Tzar'rim When giving numbers you will ofcourse use overheat, because that's a logical comparison. Sure you'll USE it, but that's not the point. Also, still :hail: Well, yeh. I mean I did say that was with heat Originally by: Copine Callmeknau 1100 or so with Hail, RHAMS and top rack heated also, you don't use hail on a ship with multiple TE II? lol Stunning EVE Online Theme for PS3
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2011.02.14 15:55:00 - [239] Originally by: teh mole I haven't looked at all these posts but has anybody mentioned the unprobable, 1k dps, 15k alpha, at 170km Machariel? 2 shots from that beast and most T1 battle cruiser fits (except the drake, ferox, and prophecy) will die. It can effectively solo camp a lowsec gate without a single counter. 2 or 3 of them in a gate camp would sure to annoy a many lowsec dweller. [Machariel, Monster] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer ECCM - Ladar II ECCM - Ladar II ECCM - Ladar II ECCM - Ladar II Sensor Booster II 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L [empty high slot] Large Ancillary Current Router I Large Ionic Field Projector II Large Ionic Field Projector II Warrior II x5 Warrior II x5 Hornet EC-300 x10 You need a loki with a mind link (sig reduction) and a set of low-grade jackal implants to make this work optimally. Can hit from about 170km with republic EMP. This is obviously overpowered because almost every lolsec gate I come to has this setup guarding it. I mean after all if 3 billion worth of ships can block a gate the game is broken.
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2011.02.14 15:56:00 - [240] Originally by: Copine Callmeknau also, you don't use hail on a ship with multiple TE II? lol 2 Canes, exact same fit but one with RF EMP and one with Hail. Transversal is 206m/s. So to answer your question; no, I don't.
freshspree	Posted - 2011.02.14 16:28:00 - [241] The problem is that people are beginning to use drams more because of its GTFO ability. Just nerf the whole faction ship line and let's call it a day. Bhaalgorn neuts caps rattler/scorp navy out tanks all BSs Mach is fastest and most agile BS Vindi puts out most dps vigilant puts out most dps in d cruiser class ashimmu neuts well but not good as amarr recons sadly Gila is best drone ship in it's class/ not sure bout ishtar though cynabal is the most agile and fastest dram is fastest and most agile frigate cruor is best with neuts. worm is a good drone frig with good ehp daredevil puts out most dps for frig hull My point? there is a standard. No standard ship will prolly survive a one on one with any of these ships so drop that counter thingy. There is also nothing wrong with a ship being the best at a particular thing. I'm no dram flyer but your arguments are kinda biased. If there's going to be any change at all, then all faction ships must be changed one way or the other. I've seen that thing move and i've even lost a harpy to one. The same thing would have happened if i engaged any other pirate frig. Well, maybe a succ is an exception but... I forgot to add the sansha line to my comparison.
Copine Callmeknau Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams The KWFL Republic	Posted - 2011.02.14 17:58:00 - [242] Originally by: Tzar'rim Originally by: Copine Callmeknau also, you don't use hail on a ship with multiple TE II? lol 2 Canes, exact same fit but one with RF EMP and one with Hail. Transversal is 206m/s. So to answer your question; no, I don't. A) Doubtful your transversal would be that high if you are flying the ship correctly. B) Hail outdamages EMP under 5km, which is where you should be when you fly that ship. Not that it bothers me, it's your choice if you want to gimp the dps of your ship ^^ In summation: 1100dps cane exists. I'm right, you're wrong. Deal with it Stunning EVE Online Theme for PS3
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2011.02.14 18:39:00 - [243] Edited by: Tzar''rim on 14/02/2011 18:39:14 Because 200m/s is a whole lot... And no, it only does if you overheat, which is kinda silly to use in a comparison. Same as you do (what was it?) 900 dps at 20km, just because you use a "different" way of "stating your dps".
StrykerR1	Posted - 2011.02.14 18:40:00 - [244] omfg "oonoooeesss big bad pirate ships are way to op" your just ****ed because your poor and cant afford one stop whining like a baby buck up and earn some isk to get one jesus, next your gonna start a thread about " how come i dont insta pop titan ships with my drake blob because drakes are the best evvvaaarrrr" thread.. stop being poor that is all
StrykerR1	Posted - 2011.02.14 18:44:00 - [245] Edited by: StrykerR1 on 14/02/2011 18:44:12 Originally by: Sphit Ker It's time. They don't belong in the EVE universe. You know when there is no counter but more of the same? It's time to nerf. INB4 trolls and ****heads. Prove me wrong by providing a hard counter that actually work. Prove me wrong by providing a counter the Angel Cartel ships have to fear and worry about. I give you one century to prove me wrong. Until then, don't even try. What is it, already? Support me, teach me or step off. you want a counter? how about another pirate ship? cant afford one? to bad guess you cant counter it can you? just because you cant beat a corvette with your geo dosnt mean chevy should "nerf" there sports car you pay to play and i paid alot for my ship so gtfo
freshspree	Posted - 2011.02.14 19:09:00 - [246] Originally by: Cipher Jones Originally by: teh mole I haven't looked at all these posts but has anybody mentioned the unprobable, 1k dps, 15k alpha, at 170km Machariel? 2 shots from that beast and most T1 battle cruiser fits (except the drake, ferox, and prophecy) will die. It can effectively solo camp a lowsec gate without a single counter. 2 or 3 of them in a gate camp would sure to annoy a many lowsec dweller. [Machariel, Monster] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer ECCM - Ladar II ECCM - Ladar II ECCM - Ladar II ECCM - Ladar II Sensor Booster II 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L [empty high slot] Large Ancillary Current Router I Large Ionic Field Projector II Large Ionic Field Projector II Warrior II x5 Warrior II x5 Hornet EC-300 x10 You need a loki with a mind link (sig reduction) and a set of low-grade jackal implants to make this work optimally. Can hit from about 170km with republic EMP. Make it 3 shots and a mael can do the same. You mentioned 3 BCs (all can if fitted well) that can tank such alpha so how in the world is it OP? Don't tell me your taking a pve mymridon into low sec and you got insta popped. Look below for one of so many ways to counter. This is obviously overpowered because almost every lolsec gate I come to has this setup guarding it. I mean after all if 3 billion worth of ships can block a gate the game is broken. You sound like you lack creativity in this game . (Get an arazu/anything that can warp while cloaked) to jump,cloak and burn towards the sniper machs and tackle. It's sad cause this is the same tactic anyone with brains will use for peeps that tend to stay quite a distance from gates or stations. Call in dps and make yourselves loss-mails. If you haven't explored your options you shouldn't post on such threads like this. GOOD GAME! My God. we have too many emo-ragers nowadays. ~Bhaalgorn*
Copine Callmeknau Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams The KWFL Republic	Posted - 2011.02.15 04:35:00 - [247] Originally by: Tzar'rim Edited by: Tzar''rim on 14/02/2011 18:39:14 Because 200m/s is a whole lot... And no, it only does if you overheat, which is kinda silly to use in a comparison. Same as you do (what was it?) 900 dps at 20km, just because you use a "different" way of "stating your dps". 200 is a lot more than it should be ^^ Your reading comprehension skills really do suck. Lemme recap, I said I could do an 1100dps cane with the top rack overheated. I proved it, and now you claim I'm still wrong because I'm using heat. Hellllooooo, not once did I say you could pull those figures without all your weps overloaded. Mebbe next time if you bother reading paragraphs all the way to the end you won't appear to be such a **, it's clear to me you read the words '1100 dps' and immediately went into a fit of rage at such 'impossible' numbers, scrambling for the quote button. Don't put words in my mouth, I never claimed you do '900dps at 20km'. This is exactly what I said. Originally by:** Copine Callmeknau My cane gets 700+ from 30-32km with barrage and jav HAMs, 900+ from 20-22km with RF EMP and CN HAMs, 950+ from 11-12km with Hail and rage HAMs. 1100 or so with Hail, RHAMS and top rack heated From, not at 20km. Meaning you can start to shoot from that range. Don't hold me accountable for your poor reading skills. Stunning EVE Online Theme for PS3
Target Painter Minmatar	Posted - 2011.02.15 04:49:00 - [248] I don't know about anyone else, but I don't HAMs on my Hurricanes. I use neuts instead.
Pixiss Gallente Divine Power. Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2011.02.15 10:28:00 - [249] Originally by: BadPlebe Bhaalgorn. /end thread signed
Derwent Deez Nuts. Nut Up Or Shut Up.	Posted - 2011.02.15 19:03:00 - [250] sry im late. u mad? yeah u mad __________________________________
Sphit Ker Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2011.02.16 07:32:00 - [251] Originally by: Derwent sry im late. u mad? yeah u mad yea that's it. I was mad as hell so I made a thread about it. Checked the one before it, too? Nano-shield minnies and Cartel ships are by far the most frequent setup I encounter. I overdosed on these silly ships. The second one would be armor HAC gangs but they happen like once a month at best. They have all the strengths that matters and no real intrinsic weaknesses we can pray on. This is exactly why they are so prevalent; people naturally gravitate around what's best. That's how I know they are OP. I think I've made my stance perfectly clear. All has been said a thousand times already; I have nothing left to say about this. The following statement is not my signature. The preceding statement is my signature.
Zhim'Fufu	Posted - 2011.02.16 07:38:00 - [252] Originally by: StrykerR1 omfg "oonoooeesss big bad pirate ships are way to op" your just **ed because your poor and cant afford one stop whining like a baby buck up and earn some isk to get one jesus, next your gonna start a thread about " how come i dont insta pop titan ships with my drake blob because drakes are the best evvvaaarrrr" thread.. stop being poor that is all In a lot of ways this is pretty much the crux of the nerfers argument. Zomg my cheap t1 ships and cheapish t2 ships stand no chance against the ebil pirate ships that takes two races worth of skills to use well and costs many times more than even a t2 ship. Don't, however, expect the whingers to ever acknowledge it though. Originally by:** Response to bitter carebear tears in local [19:44:46] CCP Incognito > sorry i can't talk about game mechanics. you need to use your brains and figure it out.
Korg Leaf Time Bandits.	Posted - 2011.02.16 08:57:00 - [253] Originally by: Sphit Ker Originally by: Derwent sry im late. u mad? yeah u mad yea that's it. I was mad as hell so I made a thread about it. Checked the one before it, too? Nano-shield minnies and Cartel ships are by far the most frequent setup I encounter. I overdosed on these silly ships. The second one would be armor HAC gangs but they happen like once a month at best. They have all the strengths that matters and no real intrinsic weaknesses we can pray on. This is exactly why they are so prevalent; people naturally gravitate around what's best. That's how I know they are OP. I think I've made my stance perfectly clear. All has been said a thousand times already; I have nothing left to say about this. They are prevalent because when flying solo or in a small gang the ability to run when needed is very highly prized, especially with the current trends in PvP where most people don't like to risk much either being the solo pilot or one of the 50 pilots chasing him. As for counters and weaknesses there are plenty of ships that can kill angel cartel ships, most have already been mentioned. -------------------------------------------- Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One!

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