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Ingvar Angst Amarr Omni Industrial Coalition Crooked Cross	Posted - 2011.02.14 17:21:00 - [121] Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 14/02/2011 17:21:44 Originally by: E man Industries And yes botters pay as well but for every sub a botter represents is 2 people who quit over bots. Aren't they making so much isk that they simply spend some of it on plex instead of paying cash per month?
Horizonist Yulai Guard 2nd Fleet Yulai Federation	Posted - 2011.02.14 17:23:00 - [122] Originally by: Ingvar Angst Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 14/02/2011 17:21:44 Originally by: E man Industries And yes botters pay as well but for every sub a botter represents is 2 people who quit over bots. Aren't they making so much isk that they simply spend some of it on plex instead of paying cash per month? Plex was bought by RL cash to begin with, there is no such thing as a free subscription.
Apollo Gabriel Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels Etherium Cartel	Posted - 2011.02.14 17:26:00 - [123] @CCP BOT Detector V1.0 1) When a system passes X kills, spawn a "fake player" in local. 2) If the ship insta-docks, leave the ship out there. 3) Repeat as needed. if the BOTS stop docking up after local = local + 1 as a result, I'd be happy, I'll happily hunt and kill them thereafter. If you need to douche, do it at home.
Whyumadtho	Posted - 2011.02.14 17:36:00 - [124] Is botting really this rampant?
HowardStern	Posted - 2011.02.14 17:42:00 - [125] Originally by: Ingvar Angst Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 14/02/2011 17:21:44 Originally by: E man Industries And yes botters pay as well but for every sub a botter represents is 2 people who quit over bots. Aren't they making so much isk that they simply spend some of it on plex instead of paying cash per month? Tons of people do this, just look at the amount of PLEXes sold per day. The majority of them aren't botters.
E man Industries	Posted - 2011.02.14 17:43:00 - [126] Soon this report wiil hit massively and other gaming sites where people with a potential intrest in EvE linger. Hearing CCP's lack of action on bots will prevent some players from subing up. Also current subscribers unable to compete with botters may also quit. For one I am not intrested in some aspects of eve as it is better done by bots and I buy the results(ie I buy ore rather than subbing another acount to mine as they do it cheaper. So yes bots to cost CPP subscriptions. Proving and measuring it is hard however. If EvE players and sites raise enough of a public stink over bots it only drive the 1 to ratio higher and thus will add incentive for CCP to fix this. Reports such as eve24's are exactly what is needed. This iformation needs to be spread to hurt CCP as CCP seems unwilling to act on it. At some point the ratio of losts subs to Bots will be greater than bot subs....also the player base will be happier. While the ratio may not be 1:2 is would imagineit is signifigant as many none eve sites often veiw eve as a haven for bots and thus do not show intrest. this is reflected in the comments of news sites on eve news. For example one news sites covering the Goon theft the refrence to bots and how this was no big loss where common on massively and pc gammer. Your telling me potential plaers are nto lost due to that? CCP needs to fix this!
El'Niaga Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2011.02.14 18:04:00 - [127] I'd like to see evenews24 do a detailed report of the many Northern bots and such in as much detail, after all we all know you have them. There is no PLEX that isn't paid for thus CCP is not losing money. Bots exist in every game. Companies have to weigh the cost of removing them against their revenue. There is not 2 people leaving for every 1 bot, subscriptions have grown not fallen. Why do botters exist? They exist to supply a service that the community wants but does not have the time to provide. It doesn't matter if they are mining (thus providing materials) or if they are ratting (thus earning isk). Why can't the community earn these things on their on? Most people can't play 20 hours a day. If you can only play 2-4 hours a day then there is a big income gap especially past your first 6 months. You start finding you can't afford what you want. So you might go and buy and ETC, this you then make to PLEX and sell. Now not all that buy them are botters but certainly a portion are. You get the isk you need for the gadget you want. How do you fix this income gap? You need to increase revenue sources. Want fewer bots you have to make it unprofitable to be a bot. Make it easier to maintain Military and Industry Indexes and get them. At higher levels these provide the casual player with the means to make more money but a casual corp cannot maintain current expected levels, halve them. They also will be spending some of that new income on maintenance which will leave the game, whereas most bots do not bother spending the money on such upgrades as they fear being banned. It would also probably help provide additional incentives for individuals to explore and settle into 0.0. Additional aids would be to reduce the cost of outposts so more are built, increase outpost limit to 1 per planet in a system to reduce the need for jumpbridges (will also make systems more desirable), increase the number of static belts in each system double them....this will help respawn rates by providing more belts giving more income to casual players, Next make some new ice upgrades for systems that when installed give hidden ice belts....each level gives a different race of isotope ice plus special ices.....will eat up more isk.....reduces need for jumpbridges in logistics (go from most common iso used to least common), less travel time means the casual player has more time to get into the game.....perhaps even a cap ship that could generate wormholes providing another means of getting into them....random entry though and has to be anchored while generating the wormhole (costs some sort of ice to do it maybe PI some), Increasing the casual players gameplay will do far more to remove bots than any sort or mass bannings and would cost far less for CCP to implement and maintain.
Eden Love	Posted - 2011.02.14 18:18:00 - [128] Totall bull**. There are enough players who do mine. Enough players who do rat. And there would be even more of them when it turns out more rewarding. You guys dont see the real issue: "Players who use bots have a unfair advantage to players who dont bot" If there is a guy who mines 18 hours a day so be it. He deserves to earn his isk. A guy who runs a bot all day to finance his PVP does deserve only one thing: A permanent IP BAN! Its just frustrating for all honest players to see how they have no chance at all against players who use bots. The bots seem to be everywhere. In High sec you report them and all that CCP does is giving them a 1 day ban - You serious CCP??** One day ban??? It cost more time to issue a petition for me then for the bots to start another bot. I loose more and more fun to play his game cause it seems I have no chance succeding without using a bot. But I dont want to use abot cause its no fun to me having my pc on all day running a bot. Thats not what the game should be about! You cant suceed against the players who use bots! Yeah you can win a pvp fight but they have enough isk to outmatch you in the long run!
Buzz Narrenschiff	Posted - 2011.02.14 18:31:00 - [129] This is honestly just an idea I've had buzzing around re: bots, and I fully expect it to get mauled out...but if the goal of botting is ISK, then how about implementing a diminishing return in the areas bots work in? This example is purely hypothetical, with numbers pulled out of mid-air, but: Bot X has been running missions straight for 6 hours. After that 6 hours, Bot X suffers an automatic 50-75% reduction in mish/rat rewards until downtime. Pull the same idea for mining. Of course, the metrics would have to be adjusted so as to just hit bots predominantly, and not dedicated "sitting there" mishrunners or miners. Perhaps if CCP did some actual study into player behavior vs. bot behavior, they can find a decent metric to use.
Elzon1 Caldari Shadow Boys Corp White Angels.	Posted - 2011.02.14 18:57:00 - [130] Originally by: riverini Ohh also, CCP, I am already informed via anonymous drop-box several times about you "ebil" plan against RMTers, you know the "Final Solution to the Isk Selling Problem", yet i would like to confirm it from the "MAN" himself, please convo me via mail if u will, I really think it's brilliant and you guys are doing amazing!. anyways interested, it's published in k.com foreplay. German Giggles R Interesting So, since the "Final Solution to the Isk Selling Problem" is in a private forum, could someone give general details of what has been said. I heard about some kind of new unholy rage that was supposed to happen this month with a possibility that an automated process of finding and banning bots has been created , but I can't confirm any of this. Anyone have any general info on this? I don't know where, I don't know when... but something awful is going to happen xD
ZenZorZar	Posted - 2011.02.14 19:12:00 - [131] Originally by: Eden Love ...stuff... A permanent IP BAN! moar stuff IP ban really ? i mean REALLY ? ever heard of ISPs that use dynamic ip's ? i'd go so far that only a minority of eve players actualy do have static public ip's
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.02.14 19:17:00 - [132] Originally by: Elzon1 Interesting So, since the "Final Solution to the Isk Selling Problem" is in a private forum, could someone give general details of what has been said. I heard about some kind of new unholy rage that was supposed to happen this month with a possibility that an automated process of finding and banning bots has been created , but I can't confirm any of this. Anyone have any general info on this? If its focused mainly on RMT botting then frankly who cares? I know it hits CCPs revenue stream but TBH I couldn't care less at this point. What's the point of playing a game where cheating is endemic to EVERY sov-holding corp or alliance? Oh and before all you sov holders get outraged - yes you do. Every one of you has at least one bot in your corp - if you don't then you're in a war that affects your home pocket or you are evacuating. No exceptions.
Freelanc3r H A V O C Cascade Imminent	Posted - 2011.02.14 19:21:00 - [133] NC is ruining this game more than botters with your un-ending NAP ***gotry.
E man Industries	Posted - 2011.02.14 19:41:00 - [134] Those bots that where reported should have thier isk tracked and see who the main acount that benifits is...that player should be banned. People would not use expendible bots if their main was going to be completely wiped off the server as a result.
Elanor Vega	Posted - 2011.02.14 21:01:00 - [135] Originally by: E man Industries Those bots that where reported should have thier isk tracked and see who the main acount that benifits is...that player should be banned. People would not use expendible bots if their main was going to be completely wiped off the server as a result. Thats resonable... if you cheat you need to pay for it... there are so many ways to fight against Botting... why not implement what many other multiplayer games did... why not implement some sort of PunkBuster bot detection program??? other games that have it don't have this many Bots... i know, i know... now I will be attacked by botters that are concerned about theirs "privacy"...
Lixia Saran Caldari EntroPrelatial Vanguard EntroPraetorian Aegis	Posted - 2011.02.14 22:35:00 - [136] Why do people think that the bots contribute any money to CCP? Can't they just PLEX it? By making 1bil a day I would definitly not pay for my subscriptions :P
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2011.02.14 22:37:00 - [137] Quote: And yes botters pay as well but for every sub a botter represents is 2 people who quit over bots. I loled at your lolmath.
Invictus Demonus	Posted - 2011.02.15 00:23:00 - [138] Premise: Gold farmers, ISK farmers, Credits farmers, etc. have existed as long as their has been MMORPGS and in almost every case the community cries out for a removal of the people who do it. Hypothesis: The majority of the problem is not fixed by removing the bots. There are two kinds of people who Bot. Those who are trying to game the system and get more then their fellow players by "playing" the game when they aren't able to manually play it, and those who use it to fund RMT (real money trading). Creating a punishment system for botting, by in large, helps against those trying to game the system, it keeps honest people honest, and works to remove "naughty" players from the player base. The problem is that this is not the biggest problem. The primary threat to the game economy is the BOTNET style RMT funders. The reason why this becomes a problem is that the former are still playing the game, if they loose their account they have lost something valuable to them. The later are not playing a game they are running a business, a real business with real money implications. A banned account means almost nothing to them. You can not reasonably use in game logic to an out of game business. But there is a bigger problem. Some games have been very good at taking down botters, or making their lives generally unproductive. This has led to an even more severe problem to proliferate: hackers. As in game strategies of breaking the system gets harder, out of game strategies become comparatively easier. As that happens more of these groups switch to that as a primary technique. As much as most people here loath to refer to WoW it is a excellent example of a game that made great strides against the success of gold farmers, only to see the even more dangerous problems of hacked/lost accounts. This gave rise to the increase of defensive measures (authenticators of various kinds), because of the need for these defensive measures. As of right now EvE does not have these measures in place. As much as it is terrible to say, discouraging botting is asking for trouble thats even harder to work out. So is there a solution? Kind of. In order for RMT to function it requires two things, a buyer and a seller. The seller is hard to defeat, because of all that was stated above, but without a buyer, RMT is nothing. The best defense against all of this is stop people from buying from third party ISK sellers. Education of new people as to the purpose of buying and selling PLEX (just by reading this thread I can see a lot of people have a fundamental misconception of how PLEX works), and coming together as a community and decided that having a game that doesn't have these problems is worth getting 300mil for 15 dollars instead of 10. It isn't about killing the botters, its about starving the business. (But you should still kill the bastards whenever you can). In other news, I would like it if some sort of anti hacking system was implemented, but thats besides the point.
Wyke Mossari Gallente Staner Industries	Posted - 2011.02.15 00:25:00 - [139] Client based solutions do not work because you can never trust the client, stop spamming crap like punk-duffer. The solution is server-side Bayesian probability filtering of behaviour. Increased score as a factor of time on-line, repetitive behaviour, reports, IP addresses and subnets of previously identified bots, tune the Bayesian net over time.
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.15 00:29:00 - [140] Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 15/02/2011 00:30:51 Originally by: Buzz Narrenschiff This is honestly just an idea I've had buzzing around re: bots, and I fully expect it to get mauled out...but if the goal of botting is ISK, then how about implementing a diminishing return in the areas bots work in? This example is purely hypothetical, with numbers pulled out of mid-air, but: Bot X has been running missions straight for 6 hours. After that 6 hours, Bot X suffers an automatic 50-75% reduction in mish/rat rewards until downtime. Pull the same idea for mining. Of course, the metrics would have to be adjusted so as to just hit bots predominantly, and not dedicated "sitting there" mishrunners or miners. Perhaps if CCP did some actual study into player behavior vs. bot behavior, they can find a decent metric to use. Not at all a bad idea in theroy (set it, say at 12 consecutive hours, how many people are REALLY going to rat for that many hours straight?), but the botters would still work around it by just creating more accounts and switching out bot accounts when said cap was hit. Remember that botters don't actually pay for any of their accounts (they buy PLEX off the market with botted ISK), so such a thing wouldn't actually cost them money, unless the cap was set so ridiculously low that it WOULD in fact affect real at keyboard players. A PLEX costs, what, 320M or so? A 23/7 bot will make his monthly cost for a PLEX in ISK back in his first few hours of botting on the first day of the month, and he still has 29 more days to bot 23/7.
Sraik Doubter En Garde	Posted - 2011.02.15 02:47:00 - [141] Originally by: Wyke Mossari Client based solutions do not work because you can never trust the client, stop spamming crap like punk-duffer. The solution is server-side Bayesian probability filtering of behaviour. Increased score as a factor of time on-line, repetitive behaviour, reports, IP addresses and subnets of previously identified bots, tune the Bayesian net over time. This. If "bot-like" behavior can be identified by the player or by the guys at Eve24, the type of statistical methods mentioned above can easily find it. One good side to this approach is that you can configure such an algorithm to generate the probability that you are incorrect in your determination. With properly adjusted metrics, multivariate statistics can easily (and rapidly) find bot suspects. I would suspect that it can even do it fast enough to severely hinder the creation/switching of accounts once one is banned. Best part is that it can not be effectively countered. No single player will ever be able to generate sufficient data to determine the metrics being measured with sufficient precision to avoid the net. The only way you know you were too close is by getting ban-hammered. Before anyone states that this type of statistics is too hard to implement; it is a common tool in the tool chest of scientists, engineers, advertisers, insurance industry. Chances are, if you make purchases or exist at all, you are already in someones filter.
Myra2007 Millstone Industries	Posted - 2011.02.15 03:00:00 - [142] To be fair I've never heard really substantial anti-botting proposals being made. That's not to say more couldn't be done (actually I'm pretty damn sure more could be done in pretty much all areas of eve but I digress...) but rather that most of us can maybe agree that it is not a trivial problem to solve at all. It's probably relatively easy to change around this or that to make botting harder but the people running these kinds of things aren't stupid. Bots can be improved and in the end many would be solutions only stall a bit at the expense of the normal customer who ends up with both bots infesting his game AND possibly intrusive/hideous security measures that he has to deal with (lol captchas...). I think its very similar to the lag. People complain about it all the time (and I won't blame them) but many players don't actually realize that its not just going to go away. Look at all the effort ccp has made (and this is well documented) and look at the results. They seemingly can barely balance out the higher load due to more subscribers. I'm not going to say these problems can't be handled because I have no idea about that but I think it's a safe bet to assume that the ressources/manpower/hardware just aren't there right now and won't be in any kind of foreseeable future. Yet players stick around like 'fixing lag' was a new idea and ccp would be able to achive next week (or the week after that) what they haven't been able to do for years. Bots (or more precisely their removal from the game) are just another holy grail that players won't let go until the day the eve server shuts down for good. -- Originally by: Professor Slocombe I will only buy tickets if the prize is your stuff and you leave Eve. Forever. You irritating self obsessed cretin.
Sraik Doubter En Garde	Posted - 2011.02.15 03:25:00 - [143] @Myra I agree that this is a problem that is likely difficult to solve. However, since you mention the issue of CCP being stretched to manage server load, remember back to the fancy plots of server load relief that CCP showed us as a result of "unholy rage". If eliminating bots has this effect, isn't it worth it to CCP (manpower-wise) to at least attempt to tackle the problem. Also, not all of the potential ideas to get at this issue are intrusive to the typical player.
Myra2007 Millstone Industries	Posted - 2011.02.15 04:00:00 - [144] Originally by: Sraik Doubter @Myra I agree that this is a problem that is likely difficult to solve. However, since you mention the issue of CCP being stretched to manage server load, remember back to the fancy plots of server load relief that CCP showed us as a result of "unholy rage". If eliminating bots has this effect, isn't it worth it to CCP (manpower-wise) to at least attempt to tackle the problem. I don't really have the information available to answer that question. I would however assume that ccp (as a business) will have a way to tackle strategic decisions like that. Money maybe wasn't even the primary concern here (I would have no idea) but given that ccp is not a charity it certainly wasn't irrelevant either. At the lagfront it appears that next to special systems like jita the main problems are random fleet fights. Those probably wouldn't be helped much by deleting bots as those are usually located in an otherwise empty 0.0 system or in random empire systems. Originally by: Sraik Doubter Also, not all of the potential ideas to get at this issue are intrusive to the typical player. This is of course very true. Some methods could be very efficient while at the same time not even noticable to the player at all. I.e. the very nature of botting probably is that some characters will exhibit very distinctive usage patterns that I guess could be used to identify them automatically as suspects. The actual judgement on a specific case could obviously only be made by humans though which I guess is where the whole manpower-limit comes in. I haven't really used the petition system much ever but if what I heard is true then well let's just say petition response times could be better especially in the weeks/months following an expansion. In other words the GM team already has more workload than they could possibly resolve in a short timeframe. The only solution is to hire more people but then again 'more people' could be thrown into every single aspect of eve. It just doesn't seem to happen probably because CCP is trying to expand into other areas as to not depend on a single product. I'm merely saying that I believe many players don't have their expectations vs. reality check up to date and I'm trying to make them aware that they're setting themselves up for a long row of disappointments and frustrations. -- Originally by: Professor Slocombe I will only buy tickets if the prize is your stuff and you leave Eve. Forever. You irritating self obsessed cretin.
Rhes Minmatar GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.15 07:17:00 - [145] Originally by: Whyumadtho Is botting really this rampant? No. You have to consider the source...Evenews24 is literally the Fox News of the Eve world.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.15 09:59:00 - [146] Originally by: Rhes Originally by: Whyumadtho Is botting really this rampant? No. You have to consider the source...Evenews24 is literally the Fox News of the Eve world. However it is right on the ball with this report. Personally, I would like to se monkey nuts come back with his magic science trick and start wiping out the robotic russians and zombie NC again. Bot rage best rage.
Lonox	Posted - 2011.02.15 11:41:00 - [147] I heard from this guy, that knows this guy, that knows this other guy, that hulkageddon is sponsored by the botters.
Jojo Jackson	Posted - 2011.02.15 11:49:00 - [148] Originally by: Aessoroz There is so much wrong with eve right now that CCP just looks away from, theres still rampant exploiting, cloaky raven boats all over null, extremely obvious mining bots in hisec ice belts, and entire lowsec pipes filled with 200+ haulers per hour that are all courier bots. Edit: You are also missing some ratting carrier bots from that list for Cobalt, probably because they ctrl-q the moment anything enters local. Don't forget the trade-bots in ALL major hubs, scam-bots (yes, it is posible!) and PI-bots.
prospector oen	Posted - 2011.02.15 11:51:00 - [149] oh is this why there arent many wormholes into 00, it might expose the bots to more traffic.
Jefferson H Clay	Posted - 2011.02.15 12:08:00 - [150] Originally by: Zhim'Fufu bot program now has to figure out what to shoot and what not to shoot so it can gtfo of the belt. Which is very easy for them to do, bots read the screen... so those handy little icons that appear when anything e-war's or points or webs you... it can see them. All things considered with overview setup, it can see them better than an actual human can.

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