Waste of space? But it's infinite. You just looked not enough around you. There is plenty stuff to find. This isn't sim city.
With probing you'll find a lot of stuff in that empty space though.

I'm pretty sure majority of the CFC pilots are flying in Tribute region fighting with NC. They have something better to do than to blob your shuttle.

Jump bridges, cynos, jump freighters make logistics so easy any idiot can do it. If a system doesn't have a good moon or station it might as well be deleted.

Maybe you should go claim a system, bring your buddies with you.

Under-utilized. Because of power projection.

Edit: and null indy is terrible.

To busy on deployment? I'm sure if you go back and shoot a few towers you'd see a response.

errr.... I know the area very well as a matter of fact. I was talking about the lack of people. The lack of activity - from PXF all the way but the last 3 jumps into Orvolle.

Besides, people in shuttles have a terrible time scanning. I've tried. Just can't seem to get the damn stuff online

an expensive clone I left in FA space

Hurr Durr wasted space!

It is a symptom of the incredibly over the top power projection in this game. Why bother using and patrolling systems you own when you can run back to deal with any real threats in a matter of minutes.... from anywhere in the galaxy.

Sov, BlueBlobfest.......boring, and ultimately pointless, NPC small gang warfare is where its at, let the sheep have their Sov and take orders from their masters

By all means, help us help you. What do we need to do to motivate you whiny, lazy, self entitled little btiches, with zero politicing skills to actually do something other then cry to CCP to do it for you. Because insulting, scamming, ganking, market manipulation, and just general shitting you doesn't seem to doing the job.

Or maybe we're not as disliked as you people pretend

Props to NC. Real EVE players, with real balls. Unlike the rest of you.

spurge.....

how about asking "why isn't anyone USING those systems". If it's empty, and no ones partrolling, wtf are you just flying threw it?

It's not like CCP didn't give you the ability to do things in a system without running agent missions. So why don't you guys do things in them?

Well said, that's hilarious...


You're not disliked by me... Not at all...


I'm a real player. Just not very good. But I don't blame anyone else...

cough. Sorry Mr. Goon sir. I think I WAS actually asking that?

And I take it your (rather angry and lengthy) post (did you just lose a ship to NC or sumthin') was an invite to all of Eve to come use all that wasted and empty space?

If Goons were so egalitarian, perhaps you could blue everyone so we can all enjoy your lovely home Sir.

No sorry, what was that, you're away getting MOAR territory.

Ok fine. later then....

Did you harp on the "force projection" as if somehow having far fewer numbers then us will, regardless of what CCP does, make taking and holding territory harder for us while easier for you?

You know that, for those poeple who seem to have this idiotic notion that if space was harder for us to hold it would be easier for everyone else, that organizing and politicing would actually be considerably more helpful to their causing then crying about goons is.

MOAR territory. That's funny, not as funny as my post though.
You would think we didn't just give territory away. You just keep on posting, it's cute.

cough. Sorry Mr. Goon sir. I think I WAS actually asking that?

And I take it your (rather angry and lengthy) post (did you just lose a ship to NC or sumthin') was an invite to all of Eve to come use all that wasted and empty space?

If Goons were so egalitarian, perhaps you could blue everyone so we can all enjoy your lovely home Sir.

No sorry, what was that, you're away getting MOAR territory.

Ok fine. later then....

And YOU know that I can't do **** until that timer goes off and you got 24 hours to come back to stem the flow.

npc alts are not 'people'

Everyone who might otherwise be interested in all that empty unused space is, instead, shacked up in highsec where they get all the rewards and security they could ever need handed to them on a plate by NPCs for zero effort.

Nobody is going to go to the effort to invade Pure Blind or Cloud Ring for control of some ****** little -0.1 pipe system with 4 belts and a couple of r16 moons, despite the usual tedious whines about how Force Projection And Napfests Are Keeping The Little Guy Down.

Why should we defend space when we don't have to?

having to defend 23/7 against giant alliances will help small alliances because

woulda thought that was self evident

Explain how the Southern Coalition flipping Providence in an afternoon during the Providence wars (or PL doing it to Providence in early 2012) would have been a great victory for small groups in 0.0.

Or

Get a wormhole guy in here to endorse the idea of making a small group (aka a wormhole corp) have to defend their POSs 23/7 thanks to the addition of something like wormhole stabilizers.

Agreed somewhet but in essence if you cannot be there to defend your space all the time the obvious consequence is having less of it and a reduced ability (and desire) to grab more of it.

It stands to reason that it is now available for someone else with a reduced likelihood of the massive sovs trying to take it away from you. If they did then the cycle simply repeats.

That's not to say any small alliance won't have to defend it too but it's all relative. If you can, you deserve it. If you can't..... And even a startup alliance is going to be limited in their ability to expand without growth.

Perhaps my "evil cunning plan" is just simply stalling the inevitable fact that Eve is too damn small now.

Defend against your one shuttle? Bring a fleet, siege dreads and triage carriers see if anyone comes.

It would be a lot easier to burn down people's homes without reinforce timers, since the titans can do it really fast. Imagine, a "Supercap roam" that burns down half of someone's home because they didn't want to waste the cap on their Avatar. Or, if you were a smaller group with a few systems, all your things would be not only burning, but ash all of a sudden.

Let's rock and roll.

Gotta love 'the have nots' whining at the 'haves' against part of the game they have no interest in participating in. The last time an accurate portrayal of this whole argument happened was in Monty Python.

Keep screaming 'HELP HELP WERE BEING OPPRESSED' you ******* plebes.

I'll keep laughing.

You think we like timers? As much as helicoptordicking supers around it gets old real fast. What was your complain again?

Yeah, our helicoptor basically is stopped by the reinforce timer.

Without that, it would go all the way in.

... our helicoptor...

Agreed somewhet but in essence if you cannot be there to defend your space all the time the obvious consequence is having less of it and a reduced ability (and desire) to grab more of it.

It stands to reason that it is now available for someone else with a reduced likelihood of the massive sovs trying to take it away from you. If they did then the cycle simply repeats.

That's not to say any small alliance won't have to defend it too but it's all relative. If you can, you deserve it. If you can't..... And even a startup alliance is going to be limited in their ability to expand without growth.

Perhaps my "evil cunning plan" is just simply stalling the inevitable fact that Eve is too damn small now.

Despite your complaint that the big alliances are suppressing the Little Guy, the fact is that those small hopeful alliances do not exist, because the space we're discussing is so worthless that there's no incentive for them to move from empire, where incursions and level 4s provide superior income levels, and where all the security you could possibly want is handed over on a plate. And it will stay that way until 0.0 income generation is fundamentally re-written and risk/reward balance is addressed properly.

Find me a nation on Earth that commits EVERY resource into offense with defense allowed to be on a safe little timer?

If you take a drive through Canada, you will find it is essentially empty. Apart from staging systems around the border, the occasional logistics railway, you'll be lucky to find a single guy ratting for moose. The Canadians don't have anything to defend it with! Most their active forces are away fighting people hiding in the mountains. Sure, if you start shooting at stuff the authorities will show up and deal with you, but shouldn't they have to acctively do something to defend their space?

CCP plz fix Canada.

npc alts are not 'people'

It was Fredrick II who I believe said "He who defends everything, defends nothing". It is far more sensible to let you attack something, wait to be told about it and turn up the next time they know you will be back then it is to send out patrols all the time. Man power is part of it but also because frankly anyone you left behind wouldn't be able to stop a decent sized fleet ANYWAY.

As it would for everyone else which is kinda my point.

1: The worst thing about these threads is that no one thinks things through beyond taking a system.
2: Have you figured in paying for sov bills and upgrades? How about logistics? How are you going to get supplies in and resources out?
3:And now you are surrounded by less-than friendly players. Maybe the system is so worthless to them that they don't bother taking it back.
4:Go grab a history book and look up the periods of small Italian and German principalities and city states. You'll find a history of convoluted treaty politics. Small players who didn't get powerful friends or learn to be diplomatic were swept aside.
5:Even if CCP makes taking undefended/worthless systems easier, you will soon become what you hate. You'll have to blue everyone around you so you can just go about your day-to-day business. You'll start investing in caps and jump bridges to negotiate the vast amounts of space. Then you'll start getting your cap pilots to fly with neighboring blue cap pilots to blob on enemies blobs.

EVE is a game played by people around the world, by various cultures, in different time zones. While some alliances are large enough to have a 24x7 presence, many alliances do not. How does this idea of "real life defense required" apply to players from different cultures who may be active in some timezones and not in others?

If the time of the attack is decided by the attacker and the defender must be available, in real time, to defend, this essentially "nerfs" cultural based alliances from holding sov in nullsec.

CCP killed eve when they introduced the jump drive, people are just really really slow in noticing.

I agree. How is it that capital ships (the biggest ships in the game) are able to travel across the galaxy faster than an interceptor? Seriously. No troll or exaggeration. Capital ships can move from one extreme side of the galaxy to the other extreme side in 15 minutes or less. This of course is provided a cyno chain is ready to go, but my point stands.

The entire galaxy.

In 15 minutes.

Anyone else find this absurd??

I agree. How is it that capital ships (the biggest ships in the game) are able to travel across the galaxy faster than an interceptor? Seriously. No troll or exaggeration. Capital ships can move from one extreme side of the galaxy to the other extreme side in 15 minutes or less. This of course is provided a cyno chain is ready to go, but my point stands.

The entire galaxy.

In 15 minutes.

Anyone else find this absurd??

It is a stupid concept tbh but it doesn't have anything to do with why people aren't living in truly worthless 0.0 systems.
Making it so the 4 belt, -0.01 truesec corridor system in a region with no valuable moons now takes 30 jumps to get to highsec isn't gonna add to its appeal to small alliances.

What I really see in the OP is not an critique of the sov system. What I see is a first hand account of how CCP has left sov null to rot on the vine. Those systems are empty because there is nothing to do there and only minimal things that can be done to improve it. The current owners have little use for it, and any new owners will also find little use for it. Upgrades cost isk and take effort to bring up or keep up. Player made outposts are expensive and absolute crap compared to npc outposts. Half the factory and research slots and the worst base refine rates. 20bil isk for these outposts, and they don't even buy 1 quarter of the services the rest of Eve gets for free.

And don't blow off sov bills and logistics costs. They are not inconsequential and are not any easier if you are smaller. Being larger allows you to take advantages of economies of scale and enough players to spread the boring work around.

Keep in mind, pretty much every major nullsec entity relies on a heavy amount of metagaming or using strategies that are not built into Eve mechanics to pay the bills and fund fleet operations. Renting, permitting and cartel systems all have to be built and maintained and accounted out of game. Some eschew the sov system, and just hold assets in space they don't own. But pretty much no one takes, holds and defends space on ratting and refinery taxes.

If you think you can just anchor a TCU in one of those unused system and have enough isk rolling in to keep the lights on in your space hermit kingdom, you are in for a shock.

I agree. How is it that capital ships (the biggest ships in the game) are able to travel across the galaxy faster than an interceptor? Seriously. No troll or exaggeration. Capital ships can move from one extreme side of the galaxy to the other extreme side in 15 minutes or less. This of course is provided a cyno chain is ready to go, but my point stands.

The entire galaxy.

In 15 minutes.

Anyone else find this absurd??

And you're right. Having said that, running out of a staging POS is NOT expensive. But I can't.

But maybe I don't even want "sov".

Maybe I would be happy with a single POS so I can just do rats, belts, plexes. For some this is good coin.

Maybe I just wanna make you EARN your iskies. Maybe I just want a staging POS to harrass and give YOU a hard time. Maybe I just want to make your production of those massive iskies TENUOUS...

It is a stupid concept tbh but it doesn't have anything to do with why people aren't living in truly worthless 0.0 systems.
Making it so the 4 belt, -0.01 truesec corridor system in a region with no valuable moons now takes 30 jumps to get to highsec isn't gonna add to its appeal to small alliances.

Think of it this way, and it makes perfect sense. You have to get from the Isle of Mann to Manhattan by boat, are you going to take a speed boat or an ocean liner? You need to get from Beijing to Los Angeles by plane, Cesna or 777? Larger ships almost always have higher sustained speeds and longer ranges due to fuel reserves.

What about your proposal of making it possible to wipe out a lone guy's POS within 15 minutes while he's at work or asleep and destroying all his stored loot and ships is 'tenuous' on the big alliance's part exactly? Is it when you logs on to find everything you've built destroyed without getting to fight for it that's tenuous on our part, or the part when he has to go to highsec to buy a hauler, another POS and fuel, then slowboat it 30 jumps there and back? Is that's what going to sweat the big alliances? How many other NPC corp alts do you expect to be down with this exactly?

And you're right. Having said that, running out of a staging POS is NOT expensive. But I can't.

But maybe I don't even want "sov".

Maybe I would be happy with a single POS so I can just do rats, belts, plexes. For some this is good coin.

Maybe I just wanna make you EARN your iskies. Maybe I just want a staging POS to harrass and give YOU a hard time. Maybe I just want to make your production of those massive iskies TENUOUS...

Isn't that the biggest beef in the game? Minerman got it easy. Incursionman got it easy. FWman got it easy.

What if YOU have to choose whether to produce in your POS and defend it with a defesne fleet or whether you simply max-defend your POS and make NO production WHILE you are fielding 100% of your forces on offense.

My idea is guns or butter.

Atm it's butter, butter butter, butter butter, butter. AFK defense. AFK isk generation. The timer is the fault here.

Under my idea, a small to medium force could make you think VERY seriously about your expansion abilities and the amount of space you own. While you play at being strategically superior space-Gods, I can apply tactical harrassment and slow you down.

Proof of small guerilla forces able to defeat/impede very large superior forces is evident both in history AND in current world affairs.

Why? Da big boy don't got a PAUSE button!

If you just want to shoot rats, harass random people, aren't interested in sov, and don't mind living out of a POS, then why not just go live in a worm hole or npc nullsec?

What is stopping you from going to npc nullsec, dropping a POS and harassing the near by super power? There are plenty of defense oriented POS fits out there.

Also, you do know that when a POS goes into reinforced mode, most of the modules go offline? You can hobble a mining or production POS but just repeatedly putting it into reinforcement.

Lol defend against what? We have to "show up at work and sit there just because?" At the end of the day if you don't have enough dudes for fleets you aint gonna accomplish jack. You are missing the fact that behind that empty space there are a bunch of duders who will log in when needed, which sadly isn't true for all alliances.

You are just whining about how you want to mount sov assaults but poo poo it is too much :effort: Also you are in the wrong place wondering why nobody is home, you need to harass the richer ratting grounds.

Lol defend against what?

It doesn't?! Ahahahahaha!!!

Nice troll. Anyways, as I have always said, power projection (which is what jump drives enable) is one of several problems in null. In no way can anyone point to one single thing and say that if it was to change all would be fixed.

Oh man. You are amusing for sure.

Reread my point about how effective guerilla warfare is even against the biggest there is (in history and currently).

Yeah. You do have to show up. How much money do you make when you're NOT a work.

PXF was empty. Used to be prime. What changed? Only bots ratters I saw was B-DB. But the argument you're heading towards is moot.

And I ask again. How much money do you make when you're NOT a work.

For all the bitching about (supposed) AFK iskies that everyone else makes (particularly against Incursion runners/FW etc.) , the worst area in Eve is POS's that produce with a safe mode for defense.

And it's still making money while you are actually somewhere else taking MOAR ground.

Who else can do that in Eve?

Is this idea getting scarey for you guys because it might actually make sense? Just imagine having to look after what you actiually own and have to think about your expansion dreams - all at the same time.

I can see why you're getting tetchy about it.

What money moon money? Are you whining about tech or timers christ make up your mind. BTW someone is there to do that moon stuff, the logistic dudes, it's like PI, what's the problem?

Look i agree with you nobody likes timers but you are a shiteposting whiner with no coherent points.

Tech moons and timers are not mutually exclusive. The tech keeps pumping right up until that timer get's tripped then you just blueball to save it and you can be a trillion light years away because you got a whole day to come back on your steed and rescue the iron maiden.

While your tower is pumping isk, it's at serious risk. Be there or I can kill it - and quickly. Which part of that haven't you got?

You wanna keep churning out the coin, be there. If you don't wanna stay and look after it, put it in defense mode and go play MOAR space invaders. But it STOPS making money while it's like that. The longer you are gone, the longer it's not working.

And every new piece of territory you want to take is going to have the same problem. How big could you grow? How small will you have to become?

If a smaller force CAN hurt you repeatedly, quickly, without faffing between 2 ops, they will try. atm, no-one bothers.

Currently you say you shouldn't have to be there 23/7 to defend it. That's where we differ. BIG TIME.

Me thinx you should be.

It is possible to use guerrilla tactics to wear down a larger enemy.

And from what I've read so far, you are not the T.E. Lawrence of Eve.

Think about the numbers you are talking about. If Goons are in the thousands, you'll need to get hundreds of friends to form a group one tenth the size. Also, find a successful guerrilla campaign that didn't have military or financial backing from another power.

I'm not saying it is not or should not be possible. Right now, with current game mechanics, you can definitely wear down a large alliance's will to live in and defend their space to the point that you could eventually start dropping sbu's and only get token resistance.

The hard part about this is not the POS or the general structure grind. That stuff is just boring. With a couple hundred people, the right skill sets, some dedication, and either deep pockets or a sugar daddy, you could start grinding down some large alliance. The hard part is finding people to organize and lead all this. If you had that, you wouldn't be here crying about empty space. You would be working on taking it.

stuff.....

Let me, again, remind you of this wonderful idea called "timezones".

get out.

Tech moons and timers are not mutually exclusive. The tech keeps pumping right up until that timer get's tripped then you just blueball to save it and you can be a trillion light years away because you got a whole day to come back on your steed and rescue the iron maiden.

I say change it.

While your tower is pumping isk, it's at serious risk. Be there or I can kill it - and quickly. Which part of that haven't you got?

You wanna keep churning out the coin, be there. If you don't wanna stay and look after it, put it in defense mode and go play MOAR space invaders. But it STOPS making money while it's like that. The longer you are gone, the longer it's not working.

And every new piece of territory you want to take is going to have the same problem. How big could you grow? How small will you have to become?

If a smaller force CAN hurt you repeatedly, quickly, without faffing between 2 ops, they will try. atm, no-one bothers.

And really, whether people want to keep/invade/use or ignore the space you vacate is up to them. Once you vacate, and you will have to, what happens is not your concern anymore.

Currently you say you shouldn't have to be there 23/7 to defend it. That's where we differ. BIG TIME.

Me thinx you should be.

I'd suggest it was discovered and discussed earlier - in depth.

See, I reckon this is where you guys are getting mixed up. I shouldn't need hundreds of friends to grind off little pieces off you and THAT's what I'm aiming at - not the demise or destruction of the entire alliance.

atm people cannot sustainably take or hold ANY of your sov - pure numbers, no brains needed. Sure, they can tinker, they can play but let's be realistic about it k?

I just need to chip little pieces of you that you can't or won't repeatedly defend. If you ain't home a small force should be able to put some quick pain on you. Your own size will be the grinder. You simply will not be able to be everywhere.

And I don't need to take a system. I'm going to make you give it up because it's not worth defending anymore. You get to chose what to look after and what you can't be bothered with.

A point will be reached where you CAN defend it all 24/7 regardless of who comes at you.

THAT's how big your alliance territory should be.

See, I reckon this is where you guys are getting mixed up. I shouldn't need hundreds of friends to grind off little pieces off you and THAT's what I'm aiming at - not the demise or destruction of the entire alliance.

Has someone already mentioned power projection?

It doesn't?! Ahahahahaha!!!

The truth is 0.0 today is basically useless other than the occaissional mega sov war. Nobody "lives" in it. The industry is horribly broken and in any case can't compete with jump freighters coming direct from Jita.

Mining is basically pointless thanks the terrible high end prices which itself is brought on by capital proliferation.

Npcing is barely more proftiable than in hi sec.

Because there are so few people using the space either to make isk or to transport goods (hi jump bridges) there are very few targets of opportunity for roaming gangs. So there are less of those. Its pretty terrible all round really.

And its been heading constantly in that direction since the first cap ships rolled off the production line. Then it was accelearted by jump bridges and jump freighters.

It would mean that if we wanted to, we could just win a single fight (or no fight if we're in a different timezone from the defenders) and roll over large swathes of space in one go, because the defenders had gotten beaten and given up that day, only to have to log in the next day to rebuild their entire space or recapture stations and re-freighter in ihubs, tcus etc.

Oh, so in other words, what you want is for T2 prices to spike hard, because you're jealous of null?

Okay then.

Oh for gods sake. So you're telling me that 0.0 holders hold all these moons purely to keep T2 production costs "down"... How charitable.

If YOU don't own the space to mine the moon goo, somebody else will.

AND - AND, as a result T2 prices would fall because those that now hold that space will have competition.

Oh, so in other words, what you want is for T2 prices to spike hard, because you're jealous of null?

Okay then.

Exactly. If an organization as large as the GSF can't hold those towers, then no one will. Moon goo prices would go through the roof and we would make just as much isk off a smaller number of even more valuable moons.

Brilliant idea. Keep our revenue up while knee capping anyone who doesn't have a few thousand players spread around every time zone.

Wrong again. You CAN hold those towers.

That's YOUR choice. If it aint you, it CAN be someone else and again TZ will prove irrelevant. At present, TZ and timers are used as a defense. This would REMOVE that.

(I am curious about the burst of energy from Goons whenever there is talk of changing anything in 0.0 - fascinating)


On this point: "...we would make just as much isk off a smaller number of even more valuable moons."

EXACTLY. You chose what you want to hold. Suddenly losing said moons is gonna change the way you play. Having those moons suddenly vulnerable is going to make EVERYONE either nervous or gleeful.

Can't defend it - lose it.

Yep. You don't understand the whole supply/demand thing.

Also, actually, this would be awesome. I could run around and wardec hisec corps, and if they didn't shut down their POSes and they were all offline, I could go blow them up and there'd be nothing they could do about it (since, well, they're offline). I sense a hilarious added well of tears here. Well, either that or they'd lose large chunks of their production time as well.

(I am curious about the burst of energy from Goons whenever there is talk of changing anything in 0.0 - fascinating)


On this point: "...we would make just as much isk off a smaller number of even more valuable moons."

EXACTLY. You chose what you want to hold. Suddenly losing said moons is gonna change the way you play. Having those moons suddenly vulnerable is going to make EVERYONE either nervous or gleeful.

Can't defend it - lose it.

And highsec produce which moon goo exactly?

And besides, if they don't pack 'em up and put 'em away you can blow it up anyway. Nothing changes there.

I guess you haven't done any industry at all, have you?

I mean, if you don't know that hisec POSes are mostly used for BPO ME/PE research, BPC creation and invention, then I don't know what to tell you.

Hell, some are machoistic and even do production in them, for some reason.


So, higher prices for t2 goo, higher prices for t2 bpcs, higher prices for researched BPOs ... is there anything else you'd like to inflate the prices of while you're ******* the economy even harder than CCP already is?

First off, we care about 0.0 changes because we are an alliance based in 0.0 space. One of the few who invites newbies to live out there too.


And your idea would make us gleeful and everyone else broke, because as I pointed out, we already have the ability to field large numbers of people round the clock, while most other alliances have the bulk of there players in a single time zone.

So everyone else will be stuck producing half the day and going into reinforce the other half, while we produce all day long and send out gangs to blap everyone elses towers.


But don't let that stop you from coming up with other dumb ideas that will benefit us disproportionately. Be careful though, because you are going to pull a muscle with all that hand waving.

Now here I am - an ex-RABID indy player (who has made billions on BPC/BPO work in a POS incidentally) telling a Goon to

HTFU
Put some tank on your POS

Field a defence force

Stop making easy money

Ooooohhh... The irony.

Now I see he's moved onto changing PoS mechanics.

His "entire point" originally was that WE were wasting our space because no one shot his shuttle and he didn't see anyone in several systems, therefore WE were wasting our space. Obviously he was just talking about us, because he called the CFC out specifically; now he's trying to argue a general problem with PoS's and moon mining, two things he didn't say **** about in his OP. He started out talking about having to defend space around the clock to maintane sov, now he's on about moon goo.

If systems can be left so wide open for so long then maybe 0.0 is just a little too easy to (not even bother to) defend.

How 'bout we make POS's go outta reo in an hour, shake up the whole damn system.

If ya have to leave a defense force it makes you less "blob the whole team" capable the larger you get. As it stands, I could deploy everyone anywhere and drop back only if my timer goes off and I got 24 hours to do it.

A can't lose button for bloated sov alliances.

He started the entire thread under one point, made himself look like an idiot and has been changing and refining his point post by post.

Now I see he's moved onto changing PoS mechanics.

Or is this just a thinly veiled "you blew up my mackinaw, now I will put forth an awful mechanics suggestion and get my revenge" situation?

I've alse stated, CLEARLY, that I DON'T KNOW what ALL the ramifications might be of such a change. I asked for input. I have added what ~I~ think are positves to such a minor change.

So far it's once again proof-positive that Goons don't what anyhting changed in THEIR space because they don't wanna work for THEIR coin.

And people wonder why 0.0 is boring. Sigh.

I do agree with his initial point about empty systems. It would be cool if every system had some sort of content in it to attract players. But this also has to be balanced with the fact that the real world has its own share of empty space and fly-over country.

And now it has just devolved into screw-the-goons thread #349122

He's flailing around trying to find any mechanic tweak that he (mistakenly) thinks will hurt us.

It will hurt, you know it, so it's now a case of destroy the thread so it doesn't get traction.

The wasted space in .0 is and always has been the topic.

It will hurt, you know it, so it's now a case of destroy the thread so it doesn't get traction. This was never a "screw-the-goons" thread. That was also pointed out. You make it so. I don't actually care who you are. The wasted space in .0 is and always has been the topic.

But if Goons want to step onto my firing range. So be it. Whatever makes you feel better.

Pity your suggestion makes absolutely no attempts to actually fix this. It doesn't address the sov system (which is what makes taking space hard, not ... POSes), it doesn't make nullsec worth living in

You expecting him to only do reactions while logged in, sitting at the POS ready to hit the reinforce button manually?

Seriously though, we got guys in the US, Europe and Australia/NZ/Asia, and can put out a broadcast and expect a decent fleet any time of day. The Goons don't sleep. The same could probably be said for all the largest power blocs in nullsec, even if the leadership is largely in 1 timezone.

Nullsec powers will keep those moon goo and CSAA POSes running 24/7 and will be able to flip the reinforce switch and jump a fleet on any hostile within an hours notice. Your POS changes mean very little to any group large enough to have a couple hundred people logged in at any given time.

First we need to accept that there only 2 reasons to have the sov.

Production or strategic.

By forcing production within SOME of that wasted space to come under constant threat or be turned off simply to keep it is ultimately going to prove uneconomical for you to hold sov on it.

You'll drop sov.

But I bet (and it's why I have asked), there are quite a few small alliances who would be happy to take what measly offerings that now vacated system has to offer. Whether they can hold yaddy ya is going to be their problem. They have to be big enough or tough enough to do it. No change there either.

The emphasis is on forcing you to defend what you have in RT and from this, your offensive force is going to need to be smaller which lends itself to smaller alliances having half a chance to not be invaded also. (why would you try to take back what you gave up anyway?)

It also adds that if you're invading me, I could stop my entire production chain, and field my entire force in YOUR terittory and make you pull back. The tactical benefits are immense and opens up sov wars in a whole new way.

Yes.

Da minerman gotta be der.
Da Incursionman gotta be der.
Da FWman gotta be der.

Why not you?

For mine, THAT is an added benefit to this concept.

I been saying that for a LONG time.

And WHERE is your invasion fleet?

And WHERE is your invasion fleet?

PLEASE start understanding the resultant change to INVASION fleets this would create - not the defensive op.

Look beyond going F1 at a POS.

I'll repeat this line:-

Invasion needs to be a dangerous proposition. It isn't because I can just flip back and defend AFTER I kill "whatever it is I am killing"...

I guess we'll just have to let one of our fleets sit at home and **** in your face while the 6 others derp around and blow up all your POSes. vOv


I'm still waiting for an explanation as to why blowing up POSes should flip anything, anywhere.

...Jokes on you if you think we can't field multiple 200 man fleets at a time. We'll crush all the POSes in low sec while putting the smack down on any one who so much as looks at our's.

1) It's NOT about taking your sov.

2) It's about making you think twice about taking mine.

AND smaller alliance WILL come to null because >> see 2

- You WOULD dump some space.
- People WILL fill this space.
- You wont bother to take it back. Why would you?

Also, read up on military strategy - especiialy the bit about offense being the best defense.

Go on. READ.

Oh oh oh I know let's make PI also require that you press the button every 5 minutes to reset the cycle.

Is it going to be WORTH you hitting my POS?

We do not need to move our invasion fleets any where to deal with guerrillas. We have enough people to stage invasions, defend the homeland, and run guerrilla campaigns across all of Eve.

Skills won't train unless you're logged in and staring at the skill window.

No you don't. You can now because you can drop back on the timer.

My OP pointed this out. I asked why it's empty. One of the frst comments is they are "on ops".

Now let me drop (let's say the same apocs you mentioned) onto 5 of your tech moons while you're trying to kick my butt a trillion miles away.

What are you going to do? How serious is it if I can kill your tech POS BEFORE you get back.

And you're missing the point. With full TZ coverage, you can produce away 24/7. I'm not disputing this. Being there is not to produce, being there is to defend it WHILE it produces (and subsequently VERY vulnerable).

That's a guns or butter choice you need to make.

That's a guns or butter choice you need to make.

And, I'm still waiting for an explanation as to why we should "drop space" just because some POSes are shot at.

And I keep pointing out that we have the manpower for both guns and butter, and no amount of hand waving on your part makes that point moot.

Your idea is still dumb because it would screw any one who wants to drop a POS but doesn't have 10000 friends to help defend it.

Nerfing highsec is not an option but your shitstupid idea is?
Define vulnerable? Define "Being There". Is your new idea the exact same mechanics except for the lack of timers? Gee that would solve all the sov problems.
If your actions warrants a ping, you will suddenly see that we are all there.

1) Nerfing highsec is NOT an option. That will just bug out subs.

2) Buffing null is going to make the situation worse because the napfests are just going to take MOAR.

3) Even with a 0.0 buff, the super alliance is simply not counterable effectively or sustainably.

As it stands I (and probably thousands of others) wouldn't bother with null.

I am trying to at least try to consider what would make me.

(And following your logic that it's about 0.0 so it "must be a goon bash" then I wanna come out and bash goons - now we're beyond that can we move forward?)

...stuff

Actually, since you guys are so keen on positng let's change tack.

What would YOU do to change the status quo on sov. Stop just bashing MY argument and come up with something that WOULD work.

1) Nerfing highsec is NOT an option. That will just bug out subs.
2) Buffing null is going to make the situation worse because the napfests are just going to take MOAR.
3) Even with a 0.0 buff, the super alliance is simply not counterable effectively or sustainably.

As it stands I (and probably thousands of others) wouldn't bother with null.

I am trying to at least try to consider what would make me.

(And following your logic that it's about 0.0 so it "must be a goon bash" then I wanna come out and bash goons - now we're beyond that can we move forward?)

But WHERE's YOUR INVASION FLEET now? Can you sustain 100% forward or will you be forced to pull some back?

So put 'em in reo. NONE of them produce.

I just shoot and log. Shoot and log. You gonna have to come get me.

Let me do it to 5 tech moons. 10, 15. Who cares.

How long before someone realises that fleet MUST be there to get it producing?
How long before someone goes, "this is costing too much"?
How long before someone says " wtf!! we gotta break off and go back again!!"

Now let me step it up to 20, 50, 100 POS's over days, weeks, months. Who cares what they produce.

Watcha gonna do?

At what point does someone go. OH ffs, CCP, DO SOMETHING!!!

npc corp poster fantasizes publicly of being the rambo to the CFC's us marshals

Are Goons still taking ground and if the answer is yes then

Tell me bro, who gonna win?

Now tell me again how nerfing high gonna change THIS.

I agree that a nerf to highsec will not **** off the highseccers. They'll suck it up. But it won't make 'em go to null. They don't like bad men who wanna touch 'em. End of story.

People like ME might go back to null if 0.0 was buffed. Conceeded. But nerfing highsec WON'T make me move. The difference is not all that subtle.

But I tell you what. Being able to drop a DS POS and hassle Goonies Tech POS's in RT just might make me go there too......

I agree that a nerf to highsec will not **** off the highseccers. They'll suck it up. But it won't make 'em go to null.

I don't think you quite realize just how much of a military capacity we have.

The point when someone goes "oh ffs CCP DO SOMETHING" would be when hisec realizes just how **** your ideas are, and just how detrimental they are to the economy.

And, I'm still not seeing why any of this should make us "drop space" which you keep harping on and on about.

lol. I know you will.

But WHERE's YOUR INVASION FLEET now? Can you sustain 100% forward or will you be forced to pull some back?

Come on guys. At least get an FC on your poastings and mount something sustainable.

I'm answering same ol' same ol'....

And hey. Nerfing highsec ain't gonna do jack. You know it I know it. It's just going to make it 2 places I don't wanna be in.

It is not so much to make highsec players move to nullsec. It is more about getting are own guys to stop using highsec as a crutch.

As a goon, if you are really into large scale PvP, nullsec is a great place to hang out.

But...
...Of course, this needs a corresponding nullsec buff to bring our members back.

In reality, what I'm asking for is a way to make very large forces react meausrably to a smaller force. How that's done is open for debate. My POS idea is one such idea, even if for some, it's a bad one.

If the size of the Goons means you get to keep 99% of space then so be it - I'm not denying the RIGHT to the space. But I betcha you can't. If people have a way to come at you, then it's going to liven things up.

So when Goons dropped on all the Mack miners and pushed around the ice market the Eve economy collapsed?

Stop using the "market" as a reason to prevent anybody from doiing anything. If that were true then Goons activity in highsec would have been rofl-stomped by CCP a long time ago. It's not the issue you think it is because ppl will just use/make/fly something else.

Because you won't accept that ANY sized fleet might not be big enough to defend it ALL. You gotta go beyond that belief son.

I can see the problem here but is it a self-made problem? I won't go into the fact (it's been done to death) that the real wealth of 0.0 is not in the hands of the members.

And in a way perhaps the size of your sov is also the problem. Would this concept (if you can accept that you'd be forced to shrink) bring in the boundaries? Dividends start going out to the members from the savings? I dunno.

When all is said and done though, making 0.0 even richer is going to make the problem technically worse because the massive ball cannot be made to shrink.

When 0.0 is repeatedly called nothing more than blobfest, napfest (by high/low and 0.0 inhabitants) etc. maybe that is the problem that needs to be addressed. Is making it richer a solution w/o addressing the fundamental flaw?

I can see the problem here but is it a self-made problem? I won't go into the fact (it's been done to death) that the real wealth of 0.0 is not in the hands of the members.

Having said that, I also know a vast majoirty of that wealth goes towards paying the sov to give them somewhere to play etc. etc...

When 0.0 is repeatedly called nothing more than blobfest, napfest (by high/low and 0.0 inhabitants) etc. maybe that is the problem that needs to be addressed. Is making it richer a solution w/o addressing the fundamental flaw?

nurfing high sec and buffing 0.0 wont do jack to distrabution of eve popalation know why?

becouse most ppl dont care about 0.0
only the ppl living in 0.0 care about it
the avrage joe couldnt give two hoots about allainces sov rats moon goo or any other 0.0 crap

ppl pay they subcription and play the way the want to which is way it should be

lo-sec best sec

The point behind this nerf/buff combination would be to take the nullsec pilots who are now making isk in hisec because it's the most convenient and the most profitable given the small amount of effort they have to put in to do so (I am one of them), and entice them back into nullsec, where they belong.

Instead of killing off an expensive clone I left in FA space (it was FA when I was there) all the way down the PXF pipe, I decided to fly out my clone in a shuttle for a look-round and a way to fill in my afternoon. ( I used a shuttle because somebody can't be f'd seeding the market with even the simplest of cloakies it seems)

So here goes, my dander is up, fingers poised on "warp to something other than a gate" and lo and behold, 28 jumps, manual flyin', gate to gate, with reckless abandon', I made it to Orvolle in quick snappy time. No brrpp brrpp, no ships. NOTHING....

2 systems had insta-logs (oh dear)

Tell me chaps, is that how the entire CFC empire is being run? Empty. Underutilised. Nobody?

Is that how 0.0 in general is now?

What a total waste of space.

It's sad really. Discuss.

(Gotta admit, the final lowsec run to Orvolle was pretty busy - FW seems to be having a good effect)

now becouse im a lo-sec pvp pirate whatever you wana call it i should stay lo-sec to make my isk??

no m8 i pay my subscription i do what the hell i like were i like when i like

Hey, if you want to miss out on the 5b/month farmville bonanza which is lowsec FW, go right ahead. Your loss.


Meeeeeeeeeeeeight.

but my point is if I decide to go/hi-sec/0.0/lo-sec to make my isk or any other activty it is MY choice

there is no were they belong its theyer game time they can do what they like

The point behind this nerf/buff combination would be to take the nullsec pilots who are now making isk in hisec because it's the most convenient and the most profitable given the small amount of effort they have to put in to do so (I am one of them), and entice them back into nullsec, where they belong.

read last 3 words were you say WERE THEY BELONG

just coz they fight for area doesnt mean they have to stay there :)

i agree tho there should b more insentive but nurfing one area of game so that nullsheep are more inclined to stay 0.0 is just stupid

why should everyone suffer becouse null is crap ??

so nurf the majorty to suite the minorty??

face it 0.0 is crap not many eve players wont to go there i mean who wants to be a sheep CTA's wait for 2 hours in massive blob fests have whineing 0.0 sheep cry when u enter they system hey get out this out anom 0.0 is way it is coz the playerbase that lives there blob this blob that

lo-sec best sec

A very large portion of the characters in hisec are alts of nullsec.




Whatever stirs your sausage. vOv

you could say a large portion of charaters in 0.0 are alts of empire players you see works both ways

feel free to go back and drop a few hundred SBU's.
Let us know how that works out.

So what about everything else that is nullsec? Or do you believe that nullsec is nothing but POS bashing? Do you think nullsec space is won or lost over POSes?

Ask the guys in the south how many wars are fought over technetium. And no, nullsec space isn't won or lost through shooting POSes. POSes don't even enter into the equation when space is won or lost.

And c'mon Zim, if you took Tech out of the equation, and given this "0.0 is empty and boring" then why is anybody even bothering to fight over it?

To **** in someone's cheerios? Old grudges? Because we can? Because it's fun watching someone else's space pixels blow up? Because if we didn't, we might as well unsub and play X3 or other space strategy/tactical games?

And making POS's RT vulnerable "To **** in someone's cheerios" is a bad thing?