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Ghenghiz
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Posted - 2005.04.03 13:40:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Ghenghiz on 03/04/2005 13:48:22
The great 10/10 Angel Cartel Complex: The ôAngel Cartel Naval Shipyardö has fallen!
Yesterday a group of only 9 well trained pilots - Skord [WLD], SamuraiJack [CLS], Rudedog [CLS], Kalimdor [WLD], Ghenghiz [WLD], Flawless [WLD], Dishmop [WLD], Cinnander [CLS], Olyyy [SNCO] - set out to yet again have a go at the greatest of all complexes.
This time they were victorious! In total with 11 pilots (2 alts, one in a Badger II) all 5 stages were beaten. Every single Angel Cartel ship and Structure worthy of our time and ammunition was destroyed û Even The ShipyardÆs final overseer himself.
A total of 503,000,000 ISK (after SCC tax) worth of OverseersÆ Personal Effects tiered from 20th to 23rd (the highest recognized by CONCORD) was gathered, and the final overseer, The Antimatter Channeler, was destroyed. A 1400mm Scout Projectile Cannon, and a Domination Large Proton Smartbomb were looted from the twisted and melted remains of his shipÆs superstructure. Aside from these two articles, and a Dual 650mm Prototype Seige Cannon looted earlier in the complex, and although we had honestly expected more, we still estimate the total looted value to be somewhere around the 675,000,000 ISK mark
[Note: Although we did not consider this too bad from a complex system which it has been admitted is not perfect, and given the number of pilots present we can still make a fairly decent pay-out to each, it did however take our 10 combat pilots close to 4 hours of shooting some of the highest bounty, hardest, and most sought after pirates in the galaxy, we feel the loot at the end was a bit short of the mark, considering this kind of stuff (and better *cough* Gisti Shield Boosters, MWD etc) does drop from complexes rated as low as 4/10]
Victory was achieved by the persistence of several pilots most notably Cinnader (CLS) and Ghenghiz (WLD), who had been testing tactics, logistical methodology and formulating plans since December. Combined with unprecedented tanking setups and methods, the Pirates had no chance in withstanding our incursion into their NavyÆs most sacrosanct facility.
Lead by Ghenghiz this great team (as well as the continued efforts of CLS and WLD) has deserved ôbragging rightsö more then actually treasure although we are still glad we managed to defeat it!
The complex itself is a Naval Shipyard û and, as such it is tiered in a fairly predictable yet sometimes odd layout.
The first tier was clearly a supply storage, arrival, shipment and processing area. Very well defended with cruise missile batteries, stasis webification batteries and a myriad of Angel Seraphim Malakim and Nephilim vessels ranging from Frigates to Interceptors and Battleships of varying strength.
The second tier seemed to be more of a security gateway to the third û there was numerous Angel Naval vessels here, all of which we destroyed, and there was also a large military complex û a Security Blockade û which we annihilated with Torpedo and Tachyon fire once those attempting to defend it were just frozen corpses among twisted and burned metal.
The third tier seemed to be where most of the actual ôShipyard stuffö occurred. Numerous armories, ship fitting stations, cargo pads, landing pads, and some freight processing equipment were present. The defensive force were clearly aware of our presence, however were still unprepared for exactly what we had in store for them. We destroyed all of the wharves, equipment, facilities and structures present, and advanced to the:
Fourth tier which to our surprise seemed to be a ôpoolö of Naval vessels without much else here, aside from some structures which we vaped. These guys were desperately trying to stop us from getting through the next gate, however, they failed.
Final tier. We were confronted by a large EM Forcefield which appeared to be containing the subspace pollution cloud from an antimatter reaction. Around it was numerous facilities, and behind it a ruined military station. All defensive pockets around the sector were gradually lured out and destroyed, leaving only the final boss. The Antimatter Channeler. Firing torpedoes at us from 130km, his ship remained as it was even as we all approached him. Once at optimal range for the majority of our ships, we opened fire. Minutes later the first torpedo barrages hit. After this, it was clear who would be the winner in this round. Us. His ship exploded into a plasmatic inferno, leaving only a pock marked and fairly badly damaged container.
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Joshua Foiritain
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Posted - 2005.04.03 13:48:00 -
[2]
Screenshots? 
---------------------------
[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Cinnander
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Posted - 2005.04.03 13:49:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Cinnander on 03/04/2005 14:29:57
Screenies soon;
Edited by: Cinnander on 03/04/2005 14:27:01
OK so I lied, I didn't take any screenshots (this time, at least) but I have 9 short clips of frapsage which I'll post eventually. |
Nordmann
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Posted - 2005.04.03 14:05:00 -
[4]
my corp have done this complex month ago 
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Ghenghiz
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Posted - 2005.04.03 14:12:00 -
[5]
lol nordman. according to CCP before our try it has never been done before.. where is your post about bragging rights and screenshots?
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Nordmann
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Posted - 2005.04.03 14:29:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Nordmann on 03/04/2005 14:30:31
we have kill all enemys in the last stage i think that means we finish the complex!than the very stabile server goes down so we cant kill all the buildings!we are the first on moon
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Cinnander
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Posted - 2005.04.03 14:38:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Cinnander on 03/04/2005 14:45:51
Edited by: Cinnander on 03/04/2005 14:38:44
I "glued" the 9 Fraps captures together.. it's only 44seconds long, 3.95mb or so:
Linkage |
Ghenghiz
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Posted - 2005.04.03 14:41:00 -
[8]
alas nordman. its an official bug then sometimes the final overseer is not even present.
the way you describe it now it could have been any complex at any stage with or without its final overseer.
SO just be happy for us instead of barging in here stating you did it months ago.
We were first :-)
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Nordmann
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Posted - 2005.04.03 14:50:00 -
[9]
we got the overseer from the final boss
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Elenia Kheynes
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Posted - 2005.04.03 14:57:00 -
[10]
\o/
come on ghenghiz, say it: it was way too easy 
ccp needs to introduce lvl11 and 12 complexes 
Dear friendly customer... Can I have your money ?
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Tobiaz
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Posted - 2005.04.03 14:57:00 -
[11]
Well done!
Question:
The total looted value of 675M, is this sold loot, recycled loot, personnal effects AND bounties?
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Ghenghiz
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Posted - 2005.04.03 15:06:00 -
[12]
yes to be honest it was too easy come to think of it.
Our team was soo small and it took 4 to 5 hrs.
But then again our tanking was unheard of.....
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Ghenghiz
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Posted - 2005.04.03 15:08:00 -
[13]
503 mil worth ove overseers effects. and about 125 mil worth of loot from the last overseers if I am not mistaken.
How much the bounty was i cant really remember but you can image it was reasonably when dividing it over 10 pilots
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Cinnander
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Posted - 2005.04.03 16:14:00 -
[14]
503 mil from OPE (20th ,2x21st, 22nd and 23rd)
I predict about 150 from loot sales (only 3 items :/)
and about 24million ISK of shooty-shooty- bounties PP. |
Bleakheart
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Posted - 2005.04.03 16:29:00 -
[15]
So, unless I'm mistaken, you've made for each pilot somewhere around three weeks' worth of casually running level 4 missions solo, in around 4 hours' time. And gotten all the glory deserved for taking down a 10/10. Gratz!
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Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2005.04.03 16:32:00 -
[16]
Well, i'm assuming the figures stated are totals. If they got 500mill each, i'd say the complex was more then worth it. If it's like i assume, it isnt really. Except for the fun factor involved.
/Elve
New Video out! Watch me!
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Skord
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Posted - 2005.04.03 16:33:00 -
[17]
The precise amount in bounties, just alone from killing rats, was 29.1 mill ISK per pilot
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Shirei
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Posted - 2005.04.03 16:39:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Shirei on 03/04/2005 16:40:38
 Originally by: Elve Sorrow
Well, i'm assuming the figures stated are totals. If they got 500mill each, i'd say the complex was more then worth it. If it's like i assume, it isnt really. Except for the fun factor involved.
It's not that bad. 500 mil in effects, 150 mil in loot and 250 mil in bounties in total, it seems.
Loot drops in high level complexes seem to be really erratic though. Sometimes you get nothing, sometimes you get decent stuff like here and sometimes you get really really uber loot (Gist/Core stuff and such). So when you talk about the rewards, don't forget the chance at getting one of those 1 bil+ items (although those are not very common obviously)
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marioman
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Posted - 2005.04.03 16:59:00 -
[19]
gratz guys, sounds like it was hella fun, and ur post read like a novel hehe (not long i mean i meant as in interesting and well thought out.)
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El Yatta
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Posted - 2005.04.03 18:14:00 -
[20]
Doesnt it say in teh patch notes that the hardest complexes on TQ were getting a difficulty reduction this week, notably the Angels one. Wouldnt that in fact, make your acheivement unique forever, unless someone else does it by wednesday.
---:::---
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Bozl1n
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Posted - 2005.04.03 18:45:00 -
[21]
Grats
And i hope ccp see this and do not nerf this and the serp complex, just because the masses cant handle them dosnt make them to hard
http:/eve-coldfusion.com
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Elenia Kheynes
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Posted - 2005.04.03 20:53:00 -
[22]
Originally by: El Yatta
Doesnt it say in teh patch notes that the hardest complexes on TQ were getting a difficulty reduction this week, notably the Angels one. Wouldnt that in fact, make your acheivement unique forever, unless someone else does it by wednesday.
would be dumb to reduce their difficulty. All they require is teamwork. A dozen of pilots is more than enough to complete those lvl10 complexes ;s
Everything in eve should not be soloable.
Dear friendly customer... Can I have your money ?
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Miss Awful
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Posted - 2005.04.03 21:00:00 -
[23]
These 10/10 dungeons are pretty easy. You can do them with 5-6 BS without any risk, its all about tactics and teamwork. The loot btw. sucks pretty much. Ive got better items in that lvl3 dungeons in high security empire space.
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Cinnander
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Posted - 2005.04.03 21:46:00 -
[24]
Jup :(
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Turboneger
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Posted - 2005.04.04 00:14:00 -
[25]
Boost them instead, and give more reward. should be at least 20 people to complete it.
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MutationZ
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Posted - 2005.04.04 00:23:00 -
[26]
Congrats guys. It was a nice read too
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Rivek
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Posted - 2005.04.04 04:13:00 -
[27]
Congrats to those invovled. One question... did the rats cycle targets or mindlessly fire on the first person to agro them?
----------------------------------------------
BS Weapon Comparison
TunDraGon.com |
Ghenghiz
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Posted - 2005.04.04 14:30:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Ghenghiz on 04/04/2005 14:30:13
in 4 of the 5 stages the targeting is set on those that engage first or in rare cases to those that get in range of an npc that is not engaged yet.
I 1 of the 5 stages the agro is of a more cycling/random nature where it is most likely untrained groups will loose pilots.
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Trezerami
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Posted - 2005.04.04 18:20:00 -
[29]
Here a few screen shots of stage 1 only. These are from some earlier practice runs.
Linkage 1
Linkage 2
Linkage 3
Linkage 4
Linkage 5
Linkage 1
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F'nog
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Posted - 2005.04.04 23:59:00 -
[30]
Mother****** where was I when this was happening? I'd been to every try at the complex before this and can't believed I missed one, especially the one where it actually works properly.
But congrats anyway on a job well done. Now if CCP could just fix the loot table so these were more rewarding than the complexes in Empire space it would be far better. Last time we did this, we killed everything but the Antimater Channeller(sp) and got one named passive 15% or so hardener, aside from the Overseer's loot, and maybe a named medium gun. Not a lot considering the time and difficulty of doing it. I'm not asking for a ton of loot, but even the unnamed stuff was crap, mostly ammo and basic mods.
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Cmdr Sy
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Posted - 2005.04.05 01:01:00 -
[31]
I must say, well done. I had assumed all the 10/10 stuff was not really doable, a bit like Monty Python and the Holy Grail, a quest upon which one can embark, and if you are very lucky, glimpse something awesome as you die. The fact that you guys actually did it, that's great.
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hero99
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Posted - 2005.04.05 11:15:00 -
[32]
Very well done. I heard 10/10 complex were next to impossible and that groups of 30 BS+ were slughtered on previous tries.
Pulling it off with 11 ship's / 9 pilots is something to write home about.
RESPECT
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Mezko
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Posted - 2005.04.05 12:53:00 -
[33]
Heh it is nice to see why Xetic is at war they still can find time to carebear it up by doing npc installlations in their space, instead of coming to empire where the real fight is.
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Macel
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Posted - 2005.04.05 13:30:00 -
[34]
I agree that the hardest complexes should stay as hard... Maybe up the rewards a bit. This sort of thing is what eve needs- things that force people to actually work together to attain the best stuff rather than encourage them to solo anything that doesnt involve ganking other people.
I mean, 10 people accomplishing something pales in comparison to other mmo's which have raids of 30+ people working together.
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SilberFuchs
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Posted - 2005.04.05 15:25:00 -
[35]
Originally by: hero99
Very well done. I heard 10/10 complex were next to impossible and that groups of 30 BS+ were slughtered on previous tries.
Pulling it off with 11 ship's / 9 pilots is something to write home about.
RESPECT
once we have cleared whole first stage wih just 3 BSs
but this took us so long, that nobody was interested to enter second one
anyway, Ghenghiz did really great job by observing npc-tactics and by developing and testing new ship-setups and tactics. and of course by orgonizing attempts
my congradulations to all who have participated to this event
and just a word of fairness, CLS-raids was several times very close to beat this complex
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Trezerami
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Posted - 2005.04.05 15:50:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Trezerami on 05/04/2005 15:52:51
Edited by: Trezerami on 05/04/2005 15:50:15
Originally by: Mezko
Heh it is nice to see why Xetic is at war they still can find time to carebear it up by doing npc installlations in their space, instead of coming to empire where the real fight is.
Tell me where you hang out, I'll gladly come pod you
http://www.eve-kills.com/?player=Trezerami
http://www.eve-kills.com/?player=Hobblah
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Malena
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Posted - 2005.04.05 15:59:00 -
[37]
I am guessing it is too late to stop the nerfing that is coming to the complex tomorrow, and that is really too bad. Hopefully CCP will see this and realize that if they are truly trying to encourage teamwork, this thing needs to stick around with the same difficulty but better rewards.
Well done guys. Just makes me want to run it myself, just for the fun of it.
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hero99
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Posted - 2005.04.05 16:56:00 -
[38]
Originally by: SilberFuchs
Originally by: hero99
Very well done. I heard 10/10 complex were next to impossible and that groups of 30 BS+ were slughtered on previous tries.
Pulling it off with 11 ship's / 9 pilots is something to write home about.
RESPECT
once we have cleared whole first stage wih just 3 BSs
but this took us so long, that nobody was interested to enter second one
anyway, Ghenghiz did really great job by observing npc-tactics and by developing and testing new ship-setups and tactics. and of course by orgonizing attempts
my congradulations to all who have participated to this event
and just a word of fairness, CLS-raids was several times very close to beat this complex
WoW silberFuchs. So given unlimited time and persistance you guys can beat that complex with only 3 BS? How would that work in terms of ammo? and if you go in with 3 x amarr then how would the tanking work?
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Azguel
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Posted - 2005.04.06 02:06:00 -
[39]
a few points that i want to make:
1. congrats on killing the antimatter channeler
2. CLS has finished this complex through to the very end a few weeks ago, although the Antimatter Channeler boss wasn't present
3. not sure if this is the only 10/10 Angel complex, but its named "Angel Navy Shipyard", and the one according to the patch notes goes by a different name, "Angel Military Operations Complex". so hopefully our beloved navy shipyard doesn't get hit by the nerfbat.
cheers, and congrats again
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Lodhian
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Posted - 2005.04.06 05:38:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Lodhian on 06/04/2005 05:40:22
Originally by: Malena
I am guessing it is too late to stop the nerfing that is coming to the complex tomorrow, and that is really too bad. Hopefully CCP will see this and realize that if they are truly trying to encourage teamwork, this thing needs to stick around with the same difficulty but better rewards.
Well done guys. Just makes me want to run it myself, just for the fun of it.
So bout 70m for each pilot for 4-5h sitting pressing f1-fx is bad u think?
Considering that they have done it more then once this will most likley be a walk in the park now. Since npc's dont change their setups, always react in the same way and so on.
I would say a 70m aprox for 4-5h shooting is good, and the possibility of getting nice mods on that.
O well that's what i think any way.
And grats ppl :)
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SilberFuchs
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Posted - 2005.04.06 06:14:00 -
[41]
hero99, like I sad we have cleared with 3 BSs only first stage. and there You can warp away any time and get ammo
for further stages (alt in) indi with ammo is very good idea
Angels are very resistend vs. lasers, but if You go behind Bloods or Sanshas lasers should work perfect
Azguel, I have heard something about one CLS-raid about 2 weeks ago which could not be completed only because of server-crash or bug. may be it is what You are talking about
anyway, if You look on raid-members, it was joined fleet of Cats, CLS and SNCO, also Xetic-Fleet
I just would like to point on the fact that beating 10/10 Angel-Complex (and they are definitelly hardest npcs in eve) with only 9 ships demand on excellent tactics and planing and this honor belong definitely to Ghenghiz
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Ghenghiz
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Posted - 2005.04.06 06:18:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Azguel
a few points that i want to make:
1. congrats on killing the antimatter channeler
2. CLS has finished this complex through to the very end a few weeks ago, although the Antimatter Channeler boss wasn't present
3. not sure if this is the only 10/10 Angel complex, but its named "Angel Navy Shipyard", and the one according to the patch notes goes by a different name, "Angel Military Operations Complex". so hopefully our beloved navy shipyard doesn't get hit by the nerfbat.
cheers, and congrats again
A note on your second remark. The initial post states that CLS and WLD have been planning/trying since decemeber and that this time we managed to kill all + the anti matter channeler. I never meant to make it sound as this was a one man show and when i read the post back carefully I dont beleive I did.
Cinnander and I were behind almost every raid that led to stage 5 and therefor I am missing the point of your remark. Especially since it was a joint CLS / WLD raid as I was a part of it aswell since Cinnander and I laid the foundation for all the efforts.
But yes its true that without many of brave CLS pilots there would have been too little test runs that actually came up to stage 5 to finnaly pull it off. But this also holds up for WLD.
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Dannyy
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Posted - 2005.04.06 16:35:00 -
[43]
UI've done the first stage of the serpentis 10/10 (on sisi due to lack of access on TQ) in XZH solo in a megathron.
As you said, tactics make it possible.
The other stages were impossible to complete due to needing remote repair with the bigger NPC gangs that agress in stage 2.
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Warm0nger
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Posted - 2005.04.06 23:53:00 -
[44]
So, u guys use a lot of remote armor reps, cap or shield transfers?
---------------------
Eve Spawn Grounds
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Dannyy
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Posted - 2005.04.06 23:56:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Warm0nger
So, u guys use a lot of remote armor reps, cap or shield transfers?
Check the vid
they had an apoc being remotely repped that soaked all the damage, with alot of apoc/armas doing full damage setups and one remote repper each probably. Maybe a raven for spamming frigs and cruises with torps, didnt see that.
Oh, and either there's blood rats in an angel 10/10, angels have bought mallers, or some of that vid is nto fraps from that complex 
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Ghenghiz
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Posted - 2005.04.07 16:33:00 -
[46]
They'er Blood Arch Reavers, Blood raider mobs
CCP might have screwed up in making the complex and put them in accidently. I cant explain why they are there any way else.
Maybe some hidden storyline thing that will come soon if its not a bug.
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Cicci Belladonna
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Posted - 2005.04.07 18:27:00 -
[47]
Brilliant work, guys! Well done. I'm just sorry I couldn't make it that time, but it was an honour to watch you at work during the "tactics refinement" run that I was able to get to.
Hugs & Kisses all round!
Luv
Cicci
xxx
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Cracken
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Posted - 2005.04.08 05:46:00 -
[48]
holy torpedos batman angels seem too love mmissle spam as much as cald navy npcs do.
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chao226
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Posted - 2005.04.09 19:57:00 -
[49]
congrats. i knoew we would get it eventlualyu my only regret is i wasnt there to help.
i noticed a post above about 10/10 being able to take out a 30 BS raid. answer is yes it can i witnessed a huge fleet get massicured on an eirly raid of the 10/10. but cograts to ghenghiz for *****ing the npc behaviors and finaly getting the final boss. noone has put more work into it
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fatmop
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Posted - 2005.04.10 13:02:00 -
[50]
:D
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Kai Lae
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Posted - 2005.04.10 19:03:00 -
[51]
Just for clarification, does the last stage have a battlestation armed with citadel torpedo launchers? This is the sole reason that the WMH-SO complex has never been done, because it's basically impossible to fight against this station when it can take out battleships with a single torpedo hit. If it does I'd very much like to hear how you pulled it off, since only the station hasn't been cleared in this complex.
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Mr Popov
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Posted - 2005.04.11 02:03:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Kai Lae
Just for clarification, does the last stage have a battlestation armed with citadel torpedo launchers? This is the sole reason that the WMH-SO complex has never been done, because it's basically impossible to fight against this station when it can take out battleships with a single torpedo hit. If it does I'd very much like to hear how you pulled it off, since only the station hasn't been cleared in this complex.
How many defenders does it take to destroy a citidel torp?
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Kai Lae
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Posted - 2005.04.11 05:03:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Mr Popov
How many defenders does it take to destroy a citidel torp?
Don't know, never personally tried. Here's a post about an attempt (actually I think COLSUP is going to try again soon) from our forums:
Quote:
We wtfpwn'd the first 4 sections and arrived at the last section, after hammering the spawn we begain to fire on the battletower, which is where it all turner to **** LOL
this is the log of my scorps destructiion, plz remember that the shild resistance of the scorp was 87% thermal resistance, and a purgatory torpedo does thermal damage......
[ 2005.01.02 04:26:50 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Inferno Torpedo I hits Serpentis Fleet Stronghold, doing 523.1 damage.
[ 2005.01.02 04:26:52 ] (combat) <color=0xffbb6600>Serpentis Fleet Stronghold aims well at you, inflicting 0.0 damage.
[ 2005.01.02 04:27:00 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Inferno Torpedo I hits Serpentis Fleet Stronghold, doing 593.6 damage.
[ 2005.01.02 04:27:04 ] (notify) Siege Missile Launcher I has nothing to fire.
[ 2005.01.02 04:27:04 ] (notify) Loading the Torpedo into the Missile Launcher; this will take approximately 10 seconds.
[ 2005.01.02 04:27:10 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Inferno Torpedo I hits Serpentis Fleet Stronghold, doing 507.7 damage.
[ 2005.01.02 04:27:21 ] (combat) <color=0xffbb6600>Purgatory Torpedo I belonging to Serpentis hits you, doing 1875.7 damage.
[ 2005.01.02 04:27:33 ] (combat) <color=0xffbb6600>Purgatory Torpedo I belonging to Serpentis hits you, doing 1877.8 damage.
[ 2005.01.02 04:27:44 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Inferno Torpedo I hits Serpentis Fleet Stronghold, doing 425.0 damage.
[ 2005.01.02 04:27:57 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Inferno Torpedo I hits Serpentis Fleet Stronghold, doing 602.7 damage.
[ 2005.01.02 04:28:12 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Inferno Torpedo I hits Serpentis Fleet Stronghold, doing 652.8 damage.
[ 2005.01.02 04:28:18 ] (combat) <color=0xffbb6600>Purgatory Torpedo I belonging to Serpentis hits you, doing 2052.9 damage.
[ 2005.01.02 04:28:25 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Inferno Torpedo I hits Serpentis Fleet Stronghold, doing 523.1 damage.
[ 2005.01.02 04:28:26 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Inferno Torpedo I hits Serpentis Fleet Stronghold, doing 652.8 damage.
[ 2005.01.02 04:28:37 ] (combat) <color=0xffbb6600>Purgatory Torpedo I belonging to Serpentis hits you, doing 3116.7 damage.
[ 2005.01.02 04:28:40 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Inferno Torpedo I hits Serpentis Fleet Stronghold, doing 653.6 damage.
[ 2005.01.02 04:28:46 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Inferno Torpedo I hits Serpentis Fleet Stronghold, doing 653.3 damage.
[ 2005.01.02 04:28:54 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Inferno Torpedo I hits Serpentis Fleet Stronghold, doing 653.3 damage.
[ 2005.01.02 04:28:55 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Inferno Torpedo I hits Serpentis Fleet Stronghold, doing 652.8 damage.
[ 2005.01.02 04:29:06 ] (combat) <color=0xffbb6600>Purgatory Torpedo I belonging to Serpentis hits you, doing 2498.6 damage.
[ 2005.01.02 04:29:07 ] (notify) shieldBoosting requires 160.0 units of charge. The capacitor has only 102.5 units.
[ 2005.01.02 04:29:15 ] (notify) Speed Boost requires 192.0 units of charge. The capacitor has only 97.7 units.
[ 2005.01.02 04:29:17 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Inferno Torpedo I hits Serpentis Fleet Stronghold, doing 653.7 damage.
[ 2005.01.02 04:29:33 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Inferno Torpedo I hits Serpentis Fleet Stronghold, doing 653.1 damage.
[ 2005.01.02 04:29:36 ] (notify) You cannot load or unload Siege Missile Launcher I while it is active.
[ 2005.01.02 04:29:38 ] (notify) Siege Missile Launcher I has nothing to fire.
[ 2005.01.02 04:29:38 ] (notify) modifyShieldResonance requires 20.0 units of charge. The capacitor has only 6.2 units.
[ 2005.01.02 04:29:39 ] (notify) Loading the Torpedo into the Missile Launcher; this will take approximately 10 seconds.
[ 2005.01.02 04:29:39 ] (notify) Ship is out of control
[ 2005.01.02 04:29:40 ] (notify) Loading the Torpedo into the Missile Launcher; this will take approximately 10 seconds.
Now 1 of the ships that was with us (a apoc) got killed by 1 SINGLE torp /snip
So again, a way to negate these ubertorps o'death would be nice to know (if the angel complex is the same). Defenders I suspect would be too erratic, or it would have been done already.
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Ghenghiz
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Posted - 2005.05.14 04:20:00 -
[54]
I know by fact that on earlier test runs we have had incomming dmg of +- 8000. I cant be sure anymore who/what dealt them uber blows. I had hoped to find some kind of combat log on my hard drive to proof my words but was unable to but any pilot that has seen the last stage of the angels 10/10 for more then once can confirm this.
However on our following raids our tanking method rendered those threats to 0 so it's safe to say that what ever dmg an incomming projectile could have done that has no splash dmg ( wether it being 8000 or 800000 ) made absolutly no difference at all. Our tanking method renders that kind of incomming dmg to 0.
Every single pilot on our raid can confirm my words while I think the actual method used should only be for us to know.
SO basicly what I am saying is: I honestly dont remember a citadel torp although I do remeber hits of +- 8000 dmg on previous raids. But none of that matters. We can withstand anything they throw at us!!
Regards,
Ghenghiz
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MinerFriend
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Posted - 2005.05.14 12:52:00 -
[55]
maximum respect to WLD and CLS. you can twist and turn it how you want but these guys know how to take dmg, Ghenghiz please tell us how?.
I am sure many of us are smart enough to figure out something similar but the fact remains that Ghenghiz and Cinnander have beaten us all to it.
It's amusing to me how some people in this thread are trying to discredit the work this gang has done by involving all kinds of facts that are in essence not relevant. ( some guy said: we did it months ago, and some other guy said: did they take citadels? )
It's all blahh blahh to me really.
There is only 1 correct thing to do and that is to respect what has been done here.
I await those who are small enough to dispute my words.........
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Juggernaut Kell
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Posted - 2005.05.14 16:47:00 -
[56]
I agree with Miner, quit tryin to take away a well thought out accomplishment. Good job guys..................
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2005.05.14 21:46:00 -
[57]
Damn, beat me to it. I was going to go look for a 10/10 complex and get a fleet together to total it. I'm a much better armour tank than any battleship, given the correct support, I can tell you that. It's all about resistances, armour reserve and repair-delay timing. I have it all worked out mathematically and tried and tested. One question, though. What kind of damage per second before resistances are we talking about here? I would like to work out the logistics of this.
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Bozl1n
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Posted - 2005.05.14 22:01:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Kai Lae
Originally by: Mr Popov
How many defenders does it take to destroy a citidel torp?
Don't know, never personally tried. Here's a post about an attempt (actually I think COLSUP is going to try again soon) from our forums:
Quote:
We wtfpwn'd the first 4 sections and arrived at the last section, after hammering the spawn we begain to fire on the battletower, which is where it all turner to **** LOL
this is the log of my scorps destructiion, plz remember that the shild resistance of the scorp was 87% thermal resistance, and a purgatory torpedo does thermal damage......
[ 2005.01.02 04:26:50 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Inferno Torpedo I hits Serpentis Fleet Stronghold, doing 523.1 damage.
snip
[ 2005.01.02 04:29:39 ] (notify) Ship is out of control
[ 2005.01.02 04:29:40 ] (notify) Loading the Torpedo into the Missile Launcher; this will take approximately 10 seconds.
Now 1 of the ships that was with us (a apoc) got killed by 1 SINGLE torp /snip
So again, a way to negate these ubertorps o'death would be nice to know (if the angel complex is the same). Defenders I suspect would be too erratic, or it would have been done already.
The above log was me and my team ( bozl1n[CFI] dogznutz[CFI] gestra[SOLST] tzadekial[NAGA]) Yes 4 pilots
Quote:
maximum respect to WLD and CLS. you can twist and turn it how you want but these guys know how to take dmg, Ghenghiz please tell us how?.
I am sure many of us are smart enough to figure out something similar but the fact remains that Ghenghiz and Cinnander have beaten us all to it.
It's amusing to me how some people in this thread are trying to discredit the work this ga
I take NOTHING from the pilots that completed the angels complex above, nor the IMP pilots that completed the serp version on TQ first, the attempt i led, and the formulating of the tactics used, was done on sisi, after about a month or reserch by myself (which im sure the angels guys can attest to is not easyily done)
The reason our attemt failed is that (and you can plainly see it in the log of my ship going b00m) is that it happened at the begining of FEBUARY, at the time making us completly unaware of the possibility of being hit by torps that damageing, because at the time im willing to bet that we the first to have ever been hit by 1 (with the exception of POSSIBLY at a pos) and as such we were completly unable to negate them.
The torps kill a unhardened ship in 1 hit, and the above tower fired on all 4 members of my gang at the same time, killing 2 of our ships in 1 hit, leaveing myself and tzad in the 2 point ships to die in only a matter of time.
Quote:
I know by fact that on earlier test runs we have had incomming dmg of +- 8000. I cant be sure anymore who/what dealt them uber blows. I had hoped to find some kind of combat log on my hard drive to proof my words but was unable to but any pilot that has seen the last stage of the angels 10/10 for more then once can confirm this.
However on our following raids our tanking method rendered those threats to 0 so it's safe to say that what ever dmg an incomming projectile could have done that has no splash dmg ( wether it being 8000 or 800000 ) made absolutly no difference at all. Our tanking method renders that kind of incomming dmg to 0.
Every single pilot on our raid can confirm my words while I think the actual method used should only be for us to know.
SO basicly what I am saying is: I honestly dont remember a citadel torp although I do remeber hits of +- 8000 dmg on previous raids. But none of that matters. We can withstand anything they throw at us!!
Regards,
Ghenghiz
Gratz m8, u did it first and beat me to it, you use the same meathod as we did back in FEBUARY however, im sure u agree that less is more with regards to numbers attempting it, and that way is indeed the ONLY way to do it
http:/eve-coldfusion.com
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2005.05.14 23:07:00 -
[59]
At the risk of accusing you guys of using an exploit (which I'm sure you didn't), I find it hard to believe that any kind of tanking system on a battleship could be in place to deal with all of this. It wasn't a simple damage absorbing remote repairing tank, clearly, because an Armageddon is vastly inferior to a Deimos or Zealot for that job and using a Deimos myself, I don't think an Armageddon would be suited to the job at all.
What kind of tank were you fellows running? o_O
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Jimblob
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Posted - 2005.05.15 00:00:00 -
[60]
1 BS loaded with 4 large smartbombs sits in line of fire of the ubertorps and hopefully gets some of them in blast radius...
best not to shoot at the tower if trying this.
Standard disclaimer applies : I really have no clue what i'm on about |
Nyphur
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Posted - 2005.05.15 11:55:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Jimblob
1 BS loaded with 4 large smartbombs sits in line of fire of the ubertorps and hopefully gets some of them in blast radius...
best not to shoot at the tower if trying this.
Standard disclaimer applies : I really have no clue what i'm on about
I was planning this myself. Except I was planning on having the tank inside the blast radius and using kinetic smartbombs. My Deimos would have 91.88% kinetic resistance. That would have the tank covered from all directions. Otherwise, I was thinking of positioning 8 smartbombing battleships to roughly cover the tank without getting the tank in the area of effect. That would stand a better chance of working.
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Sakura Yoshida
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Posted - 2005.05.16 08:25:00 -
[62]
wow, that sounds like it was scary, i don't think i could even survive in that, my computer has enough trouble handling a dozen ships, let alone that kind of battle
i'd love to try when i'm a little thougher, though:)
I like drawing
www.technoweyr.co.uk/~stush :D |
Nyphur
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Posted - 2005.05.16 13:42:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Sakura Yoshida
wow, that sounds like it was scary, i don't think i could even survive in that, my computer has enough trouble handling a dozen ships, let alone that kind of battle
i'd love to try when i'm a little thougher, though:)
Hi Stush *waves* :). I think they used a smartbomb tank to destroy all incoming missiles under a certain speed (I'm guessing two 10km smartbombs?) and a remote armour repair system with 8-hardeners in the low slots of an apocalypse to tank the damage. Each ship ran a large solace remote armour repairer and they tried their best to kill everything before it came into range, having their ships fitted out completely for damage with no tanking ability at all. I'm guessing they target-jammed the short-range vessels that managed to get into range before they killed it to reduce the damage taken and cut the optimal range of the long-range enemies down with targetting disruptors to remove their damage altogether, because the NPCs don't move from their old optimal when you do that, do they?
I'm tempted to try this with a dedicated smartbomb ship next to my tank ship, which would have over 90% resistance to the smartbomb damage type. The damage taken would be offset by the increased resistances and damage-taking ability a Deimos with a 1600mm plate and 5 hardeners offers over an apocalypse with 8 hardeners.
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Ghenghiz
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Posted - 2005.05.19 11:28:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Nyphur
At the risk of accusing you guys of using an exploit (which I'm sure you didn't), I find it hard to believe that any kind of tanking system on a battleship could be in place to deal with all of this. It wasn't a simple damage absorbing remote repairing tank, clearly, because an Armageddon is vastly inferior to a Deimos or Zealot for that job and using a Deimos myself, I don't think an Armageddon would be suited to the job at all.
What kind of tank were you fellows running? o_O
This deserves a more detailed insight. Because I will not allow the slightest doubt in peoples minds about the validity of my great team's efforts.
I will not go and spill it out just like this but let me say that smartbombs are indeed the way to go. But i have seen in this thread some suggestions involving smartbombs that are too exotic ( and even too complicated to actually work ) and to be honnest go and try and fit 4 x large SB's and see what it does to your capacitator.
No, better one should think more within oneselfs.
One final hint: SB ships around the tanker lessens the dmg output of the team and also greatens the minimum team size and coordination needed so from my experiance I'd say this is a no go.
When one of you guys hits the mark and guesses/thinks out our method used, ill come forward and confirm it was the method used.
Until that time. Keep those setup plans rollin :-)
Regards,
Ghenghiz
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Elenia Kheynes
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Posted - 2005.05.19 12:51:00 -
[65]
What's ****ing me off m8 is that you showed CLS how to complete the level 10 complex, and to thank you they destroyed your POS in that system that was offline because nobody as using it  (rather than asking you to remove it). And then they used this to threaten Xetic ^^
But heh, you're still the man ! I never thought it was possible, and I'm glad to see I was wrong 
Dear friendly customer... Can I have your money ?
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Ghenghiz
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Posted - 2005.05.19 14:36:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Elenia Kheynes
What's ****ing me off m8 is that you showed CLS how to complete the level 10 complex, and to thank you they destroyed your POS in that system that was offline because nobody as using it (rather than asking you to remove it). And then they used this to threaten Xetic ^^
But heh, you're still the man ! I never thought it was possible, and I'm glad to see I was wrong
Elenia,
You should understand that this thread is not about politics. This thread is about our work on a 10/10 complex mission.
What ever politics involved I am sure they could be discussd out side of this thread. Overmore to close my point I beleive it is important to understand that Cinnander ( CLS ) probably has nothing to do with the recent political developments.
I thank you for you respect for our work but I also kindly ask everyone not to engage into policitcal issues here.
regards,
Ghenghiz
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Sliinky
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Posted - 2005.05.19 16:26:00 -
[67]
Well said Ghenghiz
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2005.05.19 18:02:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Ghenghiz
I will not go and spill it out just like this but let me say that smartbombs are indeed the way to go.
When one of you guys hits the mark and guesses/thinks out our method used, ill come forward and confirm it was the method used.
Until that time. Keep those setup plans rollin :-)
Smartbombs, eh? That's all I needed to know. This is what I would do. I'd run two 10KM smartbombs staggered 50% of the refire delay apart with maximum skills. That would destroy all missiles under about 2.6km/s. Now, cruise missiles can get to about 3km/sec, so we'd still need one hell of a tank. It's pretty simple. You have the tank ship running a full complement of hardeners, and perhaps a 1600MM plate for extra reserve armour, running those two 10km smartbombs. Defenders would be pointless, so I'll ignore those.
Every other ship is set up for damage, to take out enemies as quicckly as possible to prevent them all hitting their optimal range and overwhelming the tank. Each ship runs a remote armour repairer on the extra cap it has. You could also have a hospital ship, a ship set up for capacitor recharging and remote repairing. A dominix filled with cap relays and cap recharger IIs is remarkably impressive for this.
The first thing you do when you get into the complex is attract the enemies to the tank and the whole team starts up the tank and heads directly south. Then if you wanted to be extra sure of getting rid of the missiles headed for tha tank that have reached over 2.6m/s (ones from far away, far up north), all you'd need was one more smartbomber 11-15km north of the tank running one large smartbomb along with his normal setup. This job could even be left to the hospital ship I spoke of earlier.
Now, if targetting disruptors work on NPCs, this gets a lot easier. The combat ships just have EW in their mid slots to cut the targetting distance of the long-range enemies down to below their optimal range, so they won't fire. That or cut their optimal down so they have to move in close or they miss all the time. I'd need details of how NPCs react under these circumstances and if those modules affect NPCs to know if that would work. If it did, you'd either be removing long-range enemies (the toughest ones) from the fire-fight or force them all to move in close range, in which case your combat ships which are all fitted out for damage could destroy them before they closed in enough to deal significant damage.
Am I close? The 10km smartbombs would explain the use of a battleship rather than a HAC as the tank.
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Ghenghiz
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Posted - 2005.05.19 19:15:00 -
[69]
getting closer!
but still you are thinking outside the center ( one has to look more within oneselfs )
you are talking about the speed of enemy projectiles and have thought of an aditional ship to counteract that. Stop that!!
Now think from a center and think on how to counteract any projectile with the speeds CCP has given them. look back from a center and what you can do with that!
Final hint in this post: you are thinking too big!!!! ( too difficult )
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psygnosis
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Posted - 2005.05.19 19:54:00 -
[70]
hmm if the BS that is doing the tanking is moving away with 400+m/s that would make make the speed of aproach of the cruise missiles about 2.6Km/s that way the smartbombs would take all the missiles... then they only need to deal with the dmg dealt by guns....
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2005.05.19 19:56:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Nyphur on 19/05/2005 19:57:22
Originally by: Ghenghiz
getting closer!
Tell me, damnit! :p
Unless you are running three 10km smartbombs with a stndard remote tank, maybe some remote capacitor modules to help you run them.
Or if you were using a T2 AB to kick your speed up, that would help.
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Shin Ra
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Posted - 2005.05.20 01:59:00 -
[72]
How did you tank it? Everyone have full hardners on, and everyone have remote shield/armour reps on?
-----------------------------------------
Heinky> Dont mix eve with rl it can be bad for your health |
Odin Tahmorrex
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Posted - 2005.05.20 06:28:00 -
[73]
And you didn't even invite me Ghenghiz! Shame on you my friend! You too olyyy, you didn't even mention it!!! 2 months later I find out because I'm bored at midnight reading old forums!!!
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Ghenghiz
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Posted - 2005.05.20 06:39:00 -
[74]
moving away from the missile spam is indeed a way to, in relative terms, slow down the incomming projectiles. using this method one needs less SB's to kill everthing inbound.
But still we thought that more SB's is better then less and at times we even chooce not to move at all.
Using exoctic SB's with 10km range would be hard to get by ( if i am not mistaken ) and if a test run would fail its hard to replace. So We used a setup that can be bought on any market.
It requires a little bit of extra training skills though.
So now what we got is a tanker with smartbombs. But not 4 large SB's and no excotic SB's.
But how would the tanker take all the gun fire it is dealt with?
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AlvynNevins
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Posted - 2005.05.20 11:59:00 -
[75]
Well.. did that complex solo in my Condor.
Uhm..
Good job guys
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psygnosis
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Posted - 2005.05.20 16:43:00 -
[76]
Edited by: psygnosis on 20/05/2005 16:48:40
hmm... if you used like 8 tec II small smartbombs... as a defender missile does 76 exp dmg so it is proberbly safe to think that would take down most missiles, small tec II only do 70 dmg, witch may or may not be able to take down larger missiles like torp or citadel torp ... but as those missiles are slow you would be able to hit them more than one time with the smart bombs before they hit you. cruise missiles would (hopfuly) be taken down with one blast. incase the cruise missiles can be taken down with a small tech II smart bomb you would run one every second (or a bit more if you want all 8 smart bombs going). this would also alow the apoc to do some armor repairing on its own with spare cap.
incase the small smart bombs will take down cruise missiles the fitting would proberbly be somthing like this
hige:8 small tech 2 smart bombs (proberbly exp think it looked like that in the clip)
med: cap rechargers
low: 1 em hardner, 2 exp harnders 2 kinetic, hardners 1 thermal, and a named large armor repaire.
that would give resistance about 80%emp, 70% exp, 73% kin,and 57% thermal that would make a singel Gist Domination Nephilim do about 25 dmg/sec and a large accommodation repairs 64dmg/sec so in theori he would be able to tank 2 of them on his own. so he needs some remote repairing.... could find out how much that would give as well but dont realy have the time now....
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Elenia Kheynes
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Posted - 2005.05.20 19:09:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Odin Tahmorrex
And you didn't even invite me Ghenghiz! Shame on you my friend! You too olyyy, you didn't even mention it!!! 2 months later I find out because I'm bored at midnight reading old forums!!!
haha
Anyway, my first alt ctd, my second one didn't have the skills to enter last level 
anyway, lol at the setup with 2 10.5km smarties, I wish we could all afford a 3 billions BS
But heh, some people are getting close from Ghenghiz's setup (that we could call "da ubarrrr setup of doom")
Dear friendly customer... Can I have your money ?
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Ghenghiz
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Posted - 2005.05.20 20:18:00 -
[78]
Originally by: AlvynNevins
Well.. did that complex solo in my Condor.
Uhm..
Good job guys
I dont mean to bumb the thread but i have to respond with.
MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
thx for your respect :-)
tell me how you did it?
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2005.05.20 22:05:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Nyphur on 20/05/2005 22:05:02
I don't know what your experience with remote repairers are but if you had all those low slots full of hardeners on the tank, remote repairers would be more than enough to keep it alive under heavy fire after disposing of missiles. That's all there is to it, isn't it? Maximum smartbomb skills, a few named large smartbombs, md slots full of cap rechargers and low slots full of hardeners, then everyone remote repairing you while they destroy everything that gets into range.
I don't see any reason that wouldn't work, so you've stumped me. I've no idea how you did it if not that.
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Ghenghiz
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Posted - 2005.05.20 22:32:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Nyphur
Edited by: Nyphur on 20/05/2005 22:05:02
I don't know what your experience with remote repairers are but if you had all those low slots full of hardeners on the tank, remote repairers would be more than enough to keep it alive under heavy fire after disposing of missiles. That's all there is to it, isn't it? Maximum smartbomb skills, a few named large smartbombs, md slots full of cap rechargers and low slots full of hardeners, then everyone remote repairing you while they destroy everything that gets into range.
I don't see any reason that wouldn't work, so you've stumped me. I've no idea how you did it if not that.
Ok, at the risk of CCP closing this thread for unreasobaly bumping ill give you the word on the tanker. But realsize that tanking alone is not the way.
Our tank used 5 x medium SB's II at a 1.5 second interval. This deals with the majority of incomming projectiles. For the larger incommings we simply moved away from them to make sure that not 1 but more SB's would hit the projectile and it would detonate before it could become a problem.
5 x medium SB II is in terms of cap / dmg / rate of detenation the most effective if i am not mistaken. If one can think of an even better setup dont be shy to tell me please.
cramped with max cap rechare and max hardners most of our other ships were fitted for max dmg with the exception that every dmg ship also had a minimum requirement of at least 1 large remote armor rep.
In our gang we also had 2 dedicated support ships though.. 1 for the tanker and 1 other to deal with the random/cycling npc targeting nature of one of the 5 stages of the complex...
All in all I beleive our setup was the key for our sucess, and I hope we all could think of this setup as the "10/10 slayer"
Regards,
Ghenghiz
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2005.05.20 23:56:00 -
[81]
So I was absolutely and totally right :p. And the only thing more effective than what you mentioned would involve officer loot, so I suppose that's a good idea. I wonder if I could run that many on a Deimos with three Cap Recharger IIs.
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Ghenghiz
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Posted - 2005.05.21 00:17:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Ghenghiz on 21/05/2005 00:19:59
what you want really is a 2 apoc siamyse twin. 1 tanks and the other supports.
Both my characters that flew in this role has amarr bs lvl 5 and the cap power the apoc has is staggering.
enough cap to keep both the sb's and the support running at all times.
but i will say for the last time.. this is not the only thing that made us beat the 10/10.
We have been at it for a long time and we lost countless of ships. persistence / setup fine tuning / logisitcs / methods and alot of npc behavior studies are involved.
If you and your crew cant afford to try and fail for more then ALOT of times then consider not to try at all :-(
regards,
ghenghiz
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psygnosis
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Posted - 2005.05.21 02:17:00 -
[83]
Edited by: psygnosis on 21/05/2005 02:16:49
hehe sounds like fun.... anyway thanks for letting us know how...
and great work with taking the complex down in the first place... grats
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2005.05.21 11:12:00 -
[84]
I'll let you know how it goes when I attempt a 10/10. ;)
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dark1ing
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Posted - 2005.05.21 13:32:00 -
[85]
Awesome stuff guys, must have been crazy! like someone else remarked, my pc would never handle anything like that, was lag not a factor?
Congrats to those involved
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VortiK
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Posted - 2005.05.22 11:32:00 -
[86]
So getting ride of missiles by smartbombing, and tanking the rest with only 1 dedicated apoc. What was your resists on that armor tank ?
What is a life, devoid of strife ? 
Glorious Furture |
Ghenghiz
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Posted - 2005.05.22 11:54:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Ghenghiz on 22/05/2005 11:57:41
The lag is minimum in the complex ( lag is something network related ). However my videocard had huge problems with rendering the scenes so I had to zoom out to it's fullest to be able to keep playing.
Sometimes I would zoom in to be able to make something out only to zoom back out again.
As for one other remark made by vortik. You are not reading this thread very carfully. I was talking about the tanker having a siamise twin, but that does not mean that was the only support around.
Regards,
Ghenghiz
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VortiK
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Posted - 2005.05.22 20:06:00 -
[88]
I read it properly, however that don't answer my question about the resists =P
What is a life, devoid of strife ?
Glorious Furture |
Ghenghiz
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Posted - 2005.10.01 21:53:00 -
[89]
is the forum bugging? or does it look like many of the posts in this thread have been deleted? i remember at least more then 3 pages of posts, in fact i was looking for a particual post in here that i now no longer can find.
CCP would you care to explain to me whats going on?
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Sherkaner
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Posted - 2005.10.01 22:14:00 -
[90]
1. Bumping old threads is a violation of the forum rules.
2. Discussing moderation in the forum is a violation of the forum rules. If you have any questions, mail [email protected].
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