A lot of players who live exclusively in high sec like to say GÇ£stop pushing us around, we donGÇÖt want to play the game like you do, stop telling us what to do and leave us alone. We donGÇÖt tell you how to play so you canGÇÖt tell us how to playGÇ¥.

I think this is not a fair

GÇ£stop pushing us around"

Like my daughter told me me when she was 6, lifes hard Daddy, get a helmet.

Complains about industry: nerfs highsec missions.
lol.

"Every industrial activity relies on PVPers, you must interact with them to be an industrialist, so you canGÇÖt say GÇ£leave us aloneGÇ¥ because if they did no industrialist would have anything to do."

That sentence seems to be based on the assumption that the one and only thing PvPers do is blow up industrialists. Totally not true, most ships that die do so when two or more PvP pilots fight. If it was impossible to attack a ship in high sec without cause (like a war dec, or criminal activity) the total ships destroyed in the game would drop only a tiny amount. Industrialists would still have plenty of buyers.

PvPers do get one reward that industrialists do not get: the Adrenaline Rush. For them it feels good. For the typical industrialist the stress involved in PvP combat is just a pile of stress without any euphoria, and maybe with a feeling of being drained.

Complains about industry: nerfs highsec missions.
lol.

So could this be achieved in practice? I think two small changes would accomplish it very easily. The current distribution of minerals in the game is (ignoring anomalies and wormholes);

High Sec, Tritanium, Pyerite, Mexallon, Isogen, Nocxium

Low Sec, the above plus Zydrine (no wonder no one goes there)

Null Sec, the above plus Megacyte and Morphite.

I propose changing this to

High Sec, Tritanium

Low Sec, Tritanium, Pyerite, Mexallon, Isogen, Nocxium

Null Sec, Tritanium, Pyerite, Zydrine, Megacyte, Morphite.

Notice under this system there are minerals which are only available in low, so miners will have to go there.

Moreover I propose high sec manufacturing is altered from 1000 ISK install charge, 333 Isk per hour, to 10,000 ISK install charge and 5,000 ISK per hour.

And finally I propose the only missions available in High Sec should be of levels 1 and 2. If you can afford a faction battleship you can afford to fly in Low and Null in a cruiser without trouble.

These changes would be really simple to implement and it would mean you can still do everything in high sec you can do now, you can mine and manufacture there to your heartGÇÖs content. But it wouldnGÇÖt be very profitable, so you would naturally want to leave and set up in low and null. This would balance the game and cause everyone to take risks for their rewards.

TL;DR, Industrialists need people taking risks and getting blown up to exist, it is not right that they should not take risks themselves but should profit from the risks of others.

Why is your 15 bucks a month more important than mine?

More awful nonsense from the delusional hermits of 0.0.

Like my daughter told me me when she was 6, lifes hard Daddy, get a helmet.

Pseudo-intellectual individual splutters something. Has a quote from some famous as a signature so said individual show off to everyone just intellectual he wishes he was.

Bought a helmet, now want to headbutt OP while wearing it for starting yet another Nerf Highsec thread.

Shouldn't even be talking about signatures, when yours looks like it was written by someone in elementary school.

OP,

I get what you're trying to say, but you totally miss the point.

High sec exists for a reason. It's why it's called High Sec. As in, "High Security". It comes with a large number of penalties. If someone wants to stay in secure space, and pay for it through these penalties, that's their business. There's absolutely nothing hypocritical about that at all.

And while I totally agree industry is based on resupplying after a loss, the resupply can happen with raw materials coming from all security areas. I know people who prefer mining in null rather than high sec. I know one guy who lives in a wormhole, but still manufactures.

Your argument that "if all PvP would stop at structure, EVE industry would die" is also very one-sided. Because if all industrialists suddenly decided to stop producing, EVE would also die. Things like ammo, cap boosters, drones, etc., would all have to come from someplace. You can't PvP without drones or ammo. You could make your own, but that doesn't fit into my "everyone stops production" rule, as "everyone" includes you. It also illustrates that your "everyone stops shooting at structure" rule is just as flawed, as many people would continue shooting for the heck of it (let's face it, a large percentage of EVE's population isn't exactly normal).

Bottom line, I see no hypocrisy. If EVE is a sandbox, people should be free to play the way they like. If someone wants to produce items from the safety of high sec, they should have that option and it should be viable. You should also have the option to kill them, and you do (ganking, wardecs, what have you). So what's the problem?

I find it funny that many wormhole players dislike the safety of sov sec yet when people talk about the safe and easyness of collapsible wormholes and free cynojamming provides they get defensive about it. Not to mention the constant whines about 'blobs'.

I find it funny that many 0.0 players dislike the safety of high sec yet when people talk about the safe and easyness of the Intel that local chat provides they get defensive about it. Not to mention the constant whines about afk cloakers.

I agree.

Did you notice?. "Nerf hisec" threads becomes as awkward as "nerf afk cloaking" threads.

"Oh noes I can't lock down every entry point with large mass ships whenever I want to carebear, how am I supposed to live in space?"

Well said.

Come and try collapsing with your large mass ship. Wormhole space is extremely safe, that is why it has only one twentieth the kills of 0.0 while having a quarter of the population. . Only highsec beats it in safety, so don't worry about any harm coming to your ship in any way.

This is an awesome post

Complains about industry: nerfs highsec missions.
lol.

"Every industrial activity relies on PVPers, you must interact with them to be an industrialist, so you canGÇÖt say GÇ£leave us aloneGÇ¥ because if they did no industrialist would have anything to do."

That sentence seems to be based on the assumption that the one and only thing PvPers do is blow up industrialists. Totally not true, most ships that die do so when two or more PvP pilots fight. If it was impossible to attack a ship in high sec without cause (like a war dec, or criminal activity) the total ships destroyed in the game would drop only a tiny amount. Industrialists would still have plenty of buyers.

PvPers do get one reward that industrialists do not get: the Adrenaline Rush. For them it feels good. For the typical industrialist the stress involved in PvP combat is just a pile of stress without any euphoria, and maybe with a feeling of being drained.

A lot of players who live exclusively in high sec like to say GÇ£stop pushing us around, we donGÇÖt want to play the game like you do, stop telling us what to do and leave us alone. We donGÇÖt tell you how to play so you canGÇÖt tell us how to playGÇ¥.

I think this is not a fair argument.

You clearly missed the thread where a bunch of miners and gankers complained about the mining barge buff due to reducing the risk of mining in hisec.

Your argument is not fair because you based it on invalid assumptions. You can PvP all the time in hisec, it's just that there are penalties for certain types of PvP. Go and PvP to your heart's content, and don't pay any heed to the small group of players who will complain about anything that doesn't go their way (the most annoying being the people complaining about people complaining about PvP in hisec).

I find it funny that many 0.0 players dislike the safety of high sec yet when people talk about the safe and easyness of the Intel that local chat provides they get defensive about it. Not to mention the constant whines about afk cloakers.

OP: What's a fair argument? You don't own the game, from a statistic posted later in the thread 71% of toons live in hi-sec. If those players left the game because they were forced into the structure you advocate would the game still exist? It may be that in-game losing ships drives the economy but in RL subscriptions drive the game.

You may feel that you are keeping the game going by losing ships and driving the economy but you are just one subscriber playing the way that you want to play. Others may want to play differently but they still subscribe which is the true lifeblood of the game. As much as you may hate them these people help to subsidise the way you want to play.

If you don't like it unsub, if enough people unsub for the same reasons then the game will shift because ccp will need to make it more equitable to keep subscriber numbers. In order to survive eve needs to put the needs of the many before the needs of the one (or you).

Until then STFU or unsub, don't whine.

^^ This ^^ :)

^^ This ^^ :)

This is an awesome post

"High sec industry is making less than their potential, and they don't seem to understand this. "

Ahh, so you are doing this out of the goodness of your heart for the hi-sec miners? And to think, they don't even know they aren't enjoying the game. You should convo each and everyone of them so they will know they aren't really enjoying the game. ;)


p.s. grammar is exactly as intended. ;)

We'll talk about local and all that when the risk/reward of hisec is properly balanced.

What does "enjoying the game" have to do with this?

When did I say they weren't "enjoying the game"?

It seems as though you tried to agrue against the diea that high sec industrialists aren't making as much as they can with the arguement that I implied that they aren't "enjoying the game".

They can make more, and they don't seem to realize that demanding less impact on them from other players means they make less. Making more isk off fewer minerals would indeed make them more isk, because it implies that mineral prices are higher.

And yes indeed, higher mineral prices in high sec would make industrialist more money, and benefit null by allowing us the ability to do more of our own manufacturing in null, and LESS IMPORTING of goods from high sec.

I can make more importing than building, and it has everything to do with the affordability to manufacture in high.

Believe it or not, there's real world models at work here.
In effect, high sec is like China, and null is more like the US; from an economic standpoint. Corporations, like the federal reserve, do everything in there power to ensure that manufacturing is not affordable in the US because other corporations make more money by pushing manufacturing into countries were it's cheaper.

Null isn't doing though, high sec industry that doesn't want any player impact on them is.
In otherwords, instead of the US intentionally inflating the economy, and china intentionally keeping inflation down, what we have is a US entirely subjected to the whims of China's cheaper economy.

Sometimes producing things for to cheap, is bad on other peoples economy. In this case Null suffers from things being to cheap in high sec.

Missed it by this |------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| much.

"I believe High Sec is too profitable for how risky it is, I believe it needs nerfing and I don't think CCP should sacrfice the long term prospects of the game because they are being blackmailed by those who threaten to quit if they don't get what they want."

Funnily enough I agree with you. However CCP have to walk a fine line between keeping the game true to its roots and keeping the subsriber base. In the long run it probably means keeping no one totally happy but also no one so unhappy they'll unsub.

What the right balance is I have no idea but calling for nerfs, whines etc is not going to change the situation.

I see your point. I think CCP have proven whining works so why not whine for the good of the game rather than something selfish.

A very warm invitation. Thank you.

I donGÇÖt think anyone should be allowed to play a communal game and get rewards without risk while others take extra risks to compensate. The risk of mining and manufacturing and trading in high sec is too low, it is very close to zero, yet the rewards are high. This is unacceptable.

High sec needs to be balanced. If you want to be safe you must put up with being poor, if you want to be rich you should take risks.

So no wonder people say GÇ£leave us alone, we like it as it isGÇ¥.

Life ain't a fair get over it & stop your whine

So how about the null sec ratters? Moon mining? Barely anything that generates substantial income in eve has risk.

So no wonder people say" leave local alone, we like it as it is"

Do major US weapons manufacturers build stuff in Afganistan? Have major US manufacturers EVER built stuff in a war zone?

The nature of industry isn't too take massive risks of having your stuff destroyed. The sooner you come to realize that, the sooner you will stop making these bad threads I guess.

Pretty sure Isreal is being accused of bombing a weapons factory in Sudan the other day. Sudan, that country allied with Iran, with Iranian backed weapons factories.

What's that about weapons being built in warzones?

Deaths in known space are inflated by the ease of of reshipping and the giant blobs, which mass limitations in w-space prevent

PVP deaths doesn't equate to lack of safety, if those pvp deaths occur as fights that people choose to enter.

Pretty sure Isreal is being accused of bombing a weapons factory in Sudan the other day. Sudan, that country allied with Iran, with Iranian backed weapons factories.

What's that about weapons being built in warzones?

And finally I propose the only missions available in High Sec should be of levels 1 and 2. If you can afford a faction battleship you can afford to fly in Low and Null in a cruiser without trouble.

So saying, GÇ£I want to be safe in high sec and just to be an industrialistGÇ¥ is inherently creating a two tier system, where the PVPers take all the risk and then industrialists get all the rewards. ItGÇÖs unbalanced.

If I must be all things, then the fighter must become a miner and industrialist too.

So Endeth the Lesson.

The war is coming to them. I am pretty sure they would produce in more safe spots if they could. The soviets pretty much did exactly that in WWII. Move all the industry they could far back east where it would be unreachable for german bombing. The only stuff that didn't move is what could not be moved like that tractor factory churning T-34 even when stalingrad was under siege.

more waffle, butthurt, 0.0 BS and rant

Your lesson is flawed on a very basic level. The assumption it carries within it is that the fighters *aren't* already producing etc., etc.,

We do.

Do the major U.S. weapons manufacturers have factories in Sudan? Can it be said that the U.S. weapons manufacturers get greater rewards for taking less risks as compared to Iran manufacturers?

Better yet, does Iran build weapons in Afganistan?

You get it though.

Russia was still building it's stuff in RUSSIA.

If VFK came under attack, I wouldn't want to move my entire operation to high sec (another sovereign nation) I would hope to be able to move it to another part of goon space (the nation I live in).

Someone confused the "ability" to do soemthing with the logistics of it.


No, you don't build in a warzone, but sometimes were things are built BECOMES a warzone.

"Null" is not a warzone, only places were the war takes place are.

ALL OF YOU?? lol.

So we could probably put more limit on what can be done in high. The most bulk job in high as they represent the fact you could get rifle ammo produced elsewhere if you could but more technical project would require to be build "at home" in null because you would not contract foreigner to built your new secret technology maybe. Lets say we drop ship production all the way to battleship only being produced in null. Would that appear to be a step in the right direction for you?

You didn't really get my point I think.

A warzone is only the place were fighting occurs. Just because one part of a nation is seeing actual fighting, doesn't make the ENTIRE nation a warzone.

Null is not a "warzone" as was put. Null is for empire building, and sometimes war will break out between empires, and the places that build things can become warzones.

Saying that you don't build in null because it's a warzone is just stupid. It's not a warzone where I build, but that doesn't mean tomorrow we could be invaded and it becomeone.

Just like Sudan wasn't a warzone until Isreal bomed the **** out of a weapons factory; then it's effectively a warzone.

So we could probably put more limit on what can be done in high. The most bulk job in high as they represent the fact you could get rifle ammo produced elsewhere if you could but more technical project would require to be build "at home" in null because you would not contract foreigner to built your new secret technology maybe. Lets say we drop ship production all the way to battleship only being produced in null. Would that appear to be a step in the right direction for you?

This is an awesome post

I'm farily certain it was you that missed my point.

Risk =/= reward in industry, and industry does not look to do it's business in a place that is riskier than where it currently operates.

I never claimed that industry is never conducted in a warzone, since the war is quite commonly brought to where the industry is. What I did claim is that IRL, history shows that industry won't move to a riskier area to do it's business, it will actually do the opposite.

I don't recall anyone saying you don't build in null because it's a war zone.

Simple steps to fix null:

New POS structure: advanced small ship assembly array II (0.7 ME only anchorable in null) (Do this for every advanced array)
New POS structure: advanced ammunition array (0.5 ME only anchorable in null) (i'm not sure what the ME is on regular ammo arrays, but make it better than that, funny because i have an ammo array in game)
New POS structure: building assembly array (0.7 ME only anchorable in null. Used to build POS structures and the like that can currently only be built in station slots)

That's funny.

Iraq whole heartedly disagrees with every thing you wrote.

Let me put it really simple. Moving industry to "riskier" place tends to have larger benefits, due to an incredibly cheap, and available work force.

US companies were building **** all over Iraq, even when it was extremely risky to do so.

Using Afganistan as an example is a little silly. The country is constantly faught over for it's strategic location, not because people want to build **** there. They probably never will, It's a nice place if you want to build army bases, and that's pretty much it.

I propose changing this to

High Sec, Tritanium

Low Sec, Tritanium, Pyerite, Mexallon, Isogen, Nocxium

Null Sec, Tritanium, Pyerite, Zydrine, Megacyte, Morphite.

Anything which gives anything better than 1.0 ME will be used to spawn minerals out of thin air. This is bad.

I'd love to see an example of US company that was building something in Iraq while it was extremely risky to do so, instead of tapping into the Asian market of cheap labour.

yeah didn't think about that.

Either way though they are just examples, albeit some aren't very good examples as you pointed out. I do however still think that null should be buffed to deal with this. Perhaps a nerf to high sec is needed though the more I think about it. Not a massive nerf or a nerf to generally everything, but maybe a nerf to t2 production or something along those lines.

I really think that there shoudl be an advantage to producing stuff in a POS, specifically a pos that isn't in high-sec, since POS's can be attacked where stations cannot.

Haliburton?

Pretty sure mcdonalds was building over there as well during the insurgancies.

I'm not talking about during the bombing campaigns, that's just stupid. I'm talking about when people were suicide bombing the crap out of everything and anything they could.

Obvously no one's building anything during a full scale war, but that doesn't mean they aren't building when it's risky to do so.

You think starbucks gives a **** that people are dying while they have Iraqis building and working in the store? No. They only thing a company cares about is do enough people have money to make a profit. In the case of Afganistan that answer is no, in Iraq there was indeed plenty of money when we invaded.

They care more about what the economy in the region can sustain then they do about people shooting each other.


I had friends over there building roads, hotels, refineries, and all kinds of other **** pretty quickly after the invasion started. Did you not see the things in the news about civilians being recruited to go over to do work for private companies? Had several friends take advantage and go over for 6 months to a year to make like a hundred thousand tax free, they weren't bulding things for the army, and they were doing some of it in places that were listed as a "warzone".

You'd be surprised.

I'd advocate a reduction in mineral output high enough to increase the price of high sec minerals, and increased taxes across the board in high sec.

Then if the higher low end mineral costs were effecting null, I'd increase the availability of low ends in null slightly.

I honestly beleive that one of the biggest problems with null is the low prices in high. If the prices in high sec were higher it wouldn't be more worthwhile to bild in null and more corps would put more effort into developing an industry here. As it is it's simply affordable to ignore developing null sec industry when you can just import everything from high that's purchased at near production costs.

Also fix the meta modules that have T2 stats with T1 skill prereqs, by either reducing the stat bonuses on those items or severely reducing their drop rates.

I'd love to see an example of US company that was building something in Iraq while it was extremely risky to do so, instead of tapping into the Asian market of cheap labour.

If I'm living in a city, like Brisbane in Australia, and I decide to move to a shack in the desert.... don't you think I'm going to CHECK what sort of supplies I'm going to have out there? Where will I get my water? Food? Internet? I have to make sure I'm moving somewhere where I can be sure I have all my supplies ready to go.

But the way I see it, living in nul is not supposed to be EASY, it's supposed to be a challenge, just like moving away from a big city to live in the middle of the desert.

They can readily build the stuff in highsec. It's 20 seconds to JF back to 0.0. The problem is they want their indy AND PvP all in one handy location. They want to EXPORT to highsec so they can **** it over even more. That's it. That's the change that we all have to suffer for.

Germany built what it needed where it lived, it didn't go to china to buy its tanks etc, during WW2. Same with Russia. Real world analogies are bad, stop using them.

...that does seem rather powerblock friendly though as the only entities which can readily use secure markets without tax penalties are those with some reasonable control of the surrounding space. Lesser entities without secure markets and those needing materials lacking in their respective regions would find themselves potentially at a further disadvantage compared to powerful entities than already is the case.

So, the previous thread you were bitching about how we didn't want to build in nullsec because we were lazy, and now we want to build things in one handy location because we're lazy.

It's almost as if you're taking a look at what the arguments are, and argue the exact opposite.

Stop being a liar Zim.

I said you were lazy because you won't COMPETE against your OWN GUYS undercutting you in VFK. I also said that even if we closed highsec and gave you everything YOU still would not be able to compete because of how your friend, your corpmate, your ally, does his sums.

The competition is WITHIN. YOU have the exact same tools, the exact same space, the exact same methods to compete.

You WON'T. For you, nothing will work because of your personal mindset. It's NOT the game at fault.

I said you were lazy because you won't COMPETE against your OWN GUYS undercutting you in VFK. I also said that even if we closed highsec and gave you everything YOU still would not be able to compete because of how your friend, your corpmate, your ally, does his sums.

I probably should have stated my question alittle more clearly.

What I meant by building something was in teh nature of manufacturing something. I wasn't trying to deny the fact that actual buildings and other infrastructure was being built to provide services. I was more or less pointing out that a company like general dynamics wouldn't be very interested in setting up a factory in Iraq.

So could this be achieved in practice? I think two small changes would accomplish it very easily. The current distribution of minerals in the game is (ignoring anomalies and wormholes);

High Sec, Tritanium, Pyerite, Mexallon, Isogen, Nocxium

Low Sec, the above plus Zydrine (no wonder no one goes there)

Null Sec, the above plus Megacyte and Morphite.

I propose changing this to

High Sec, Tritanium

Low Sec, Tritanium, Pyerite, Mexallon, Isogen, Nocxium

Null Sec, Tritanium, Pyerite, Zydrine, Megacyte, Morphite.

Notice under this system there are minerals which are only available in low, so miners will have to go there.

Moreover I propose high sec manufacturing is altered from 1000 ISK install charge, 333 Isk per hour, to 10,000 ISK install charge and 5,000 ISK per hour.

And finally I propose the only missions available in High Sec should be of levels 1 and 2. If you can afford a faction battleship you can afford to fly in Low and Null in a cruiser without trouble.

These changes would be really simple to implement and it would mean you can still do everything in high sec you can do now, you can mine and manufacture there to your heartGÇÖs content. But it wouldnGÇÖt be very profitable, so you would naturally want to leave and set up in low and null. This would balance the game and cause everyone to take risks for their rewards.

TL;DR, Industrialists need people taking risks and getting blown up to exist, it is not right that they should not take risks themselves but should profit from the risks of others.

A lot of players who live exclusively in high sec like to say GÇ£stop pushing us around, we donGÇÖt want to play the game like you do, stop telling us what to do and leave us alone. We donGÇÖt tell you how to play so you canGÇÖt tell us how to playGÇ¥.

I think this is not a fair argument.

Consider a situation where all PVPers in the game agreed to fight each other until one entered structure, at that point a killmail would be generated and the loser, who had entered structure, would be obliged to return to a station and not to use that ship again for 24 hours.

Under this arrangement PVP would continue but industrial activity, in all but ammo manufacturing, would cease to exist. All pilots would buy one or two copies of each ship in the game and would not need to buy ships again. It would be a PVP paradise, with no need to grind money to pay for ships you could fight and fight forever.

Now obviously nobody wants this but it illustrates the point, all industrial activity in EVE is built on risk. It is founded on people taking a risk, screwing up and getting blown up. This creates the opportunity to build a new ship. It is very rare people undock wanting to get blown up and when they do get blown up it is because they were taking a risk to achieve something they want and it went wrong.

Of course there is the expansion of the subscriber base, when new players want new ships, but expansion also creates new industrialists so overall itGÇÖs effect is small.

So this means if you want to mine or make ships or trade what you are doing is profiting off someone who took a risk and got blown up and now has to replace their ship. So saying you want to do any of these things but not have anything to do with those nasty PVPers is completely hypocritical. Every industrial activity relies on PVPers, you must interact with them to be an industrialist, so you canGÇÖt say GÇ£leave us aloneGÇ¥ because if they did no industrialist would have anything to do.

So saying, GÇ£I want to be safe in high sec and just to be an industrialistGÇ¥ is inherently creating a two tier system, where the PVPers take all the risk and then industrialists get all the rewards. ItGÇÖs unbalanced. ItGÇÖs like PVPers asking for ships that respawn, it just distorts the game in the favour of one specific group.

Industrialists who seek great rewards should have to take great risks to get them. This feeds the system with risk and allows those rewards to be generated. It is fair, everyone in the game takes risks to get rewards.

I donGÇÖt think anyone should be allowed to play a communal game and get rewards without risk while others take extra risks to compensate. The risk of mining and manufacturing and trading in high sec is too low, it is very close to zero, yet the rewards are high. This is unacceptable.

High sec needs to be balanced. If you want to be safe you must put up with being poor, if you want to be rich you should take risks.

So no wonder people say GÇ£leave us alone, we like it as it isGÇ¥.

Touval,

If I want to compete in null, I HAVE to import.

TL;DR, Industrialists need people taking risks and getting blown up to exist, it is not right that they should not take risks themselves but should profit from the risks of others.

"ban importing from hisec, that will solve all your problems" durr

One should proceed to simpler theories until simplicity can be traded for greater explanatory power. The simplest available theory need not be most accurate.

No, nerf null first and worry about totally murdering it for the expansion after Retribution.

Industrialists has already risk involved.... financial risks. Rhea manufacturing for example... You could earn 1B from one, but slightly changes in material prices could cost you also 1B and more. pretty high risk if you consider that Rhea manufacturing time is 20d +/- and you need 6-7B isk to build it. You need to think nearly one month ahead. Much more complex than dull obeying commands from your FC. Much more riskier than loosing you ship. When you PvPying you just risks your ship and clone, When you manufacturing or station trading, you risks your whole fortune...

When does null whiners understand that risk =/= exploding ships. Eve is an sandbox, there are many types of risk, many faces of PvP, not just ship vs ship.

Sorry but from this thread all i can see is that null sec players fails to understand what EvE realy means. What is worse is that they realy thinks that they are right and deeply believe in that like some bigot creationists.

Drop your elitist behaviour and try to look at this matter from wider perspective.

They should want to join a corp and really go and experience the game.

Why should anyone want to join a Corp? Why shouldnt anyone be able play solo in a "sea of players"? (For not inteligent ones: They want to interfere with other players but with solo gameplay outside of any orders etc..) Why do you think that I, as a freelance solo player, do not experiencing the game?

Or is this just another "they should play this game my way"?

There are already better rats in null, there are already better l4 missions in low than in high. Problem is with the players. As long as there will be this "gheto-thinking" philosophy that "shoot anything that moves" in low/null, then nobody from solo player hisec comunity will be willing go there.

Why should anyone want to join a Corp?

Why do you think that I, as a freelance solo player, do not experiencing the game?

There are already better rats in null, there are already better l4 missions in low than in high. Problem is with the players. As long as there will be this "gheto-thinking" philosophy that "shoot anything that moves" in low/null, then nobody from solo player hisec comunity will be willing go there.

Just as there are industrialists that want nothing to do with PvP, there are PvP folks that want nothing to do with industry. What would you PvP pilots do without the carebears that make all your stuff?

They will buy stuff produced by other PvP pilots who search for maximum efficiency at any given moment - and there are no reasons whatsoever to think that something will prevent us from swithing, say, w-space activities to hi-sec industry if it becomes so profitable.

You don't really believe PvP players get their isk out of the thin air, do you?

And then pvp players live in peace and harmony once they've defeated the menace of highsec as they swim in an ocean of blue and NAPs

I don't see how these carebearish dreams correlate with me showing that hi-sec bears have no monopoly on industry and production. Care to elaborate?

Dream? Isn't that the reality in nul right now? A big sea of blue? BTW it's called satire

I'm trying to say if they disappeared and you all just moved in and made things yourselves...Eve would be a very boring game

Except that you are not prevented from playing in high sec. So it is a fair argument.

You see, the pubbies think they can't achieve jack **** in nullsec so they protect their hi sec easy mode. Grow up and take some space.

Might be true, too.But on the other hand, I've got no issues with hi-sec folks as long as they admit that their activities would be rendered useless in case the demand suddenly dissappears, which is something a lot of them seem to be missing.

PvP creates demand for PvE and industry.
PvPers do PvE themselves and quite often build stuff as well. On the other hand, PvE players mostly avoid PvP. So it's really quite simple.

Think of it this way then; if the pubbies did suddenly get ousted and you all took over...would you really rather be mining and manufacturing than shooting? You'd become the same carebears, with less people, in an empty dead game...is that what you want? If the majority anti-pvp PVE'ers suddenly up and left manufacturing, would you really be willing to all pick up the mantle?

The thing about getting carebears into nullsec is actually because chances are it'd give them an incentive to stick with the game for longer. I mean, what would you have preferred, to sit in hisec and mine, and just press a button every few minutes and docking up every 45 minutes or whatever, haul the refined minerals to jita and rince repeat, or would you want to read a battlereport and see ships which you've helped build be used to defend your space, and feel like you've actually contributed to something greater than just your own wallet?

Well apparently they prefer to mine. Who are we to tell them not to and what they should think is fun?

Did I say we should?

Looks like you implied it by discussing player retention by pushing them into nul sec. If I misread I apologize.

Looks like you implied it by discussing player retention by pushing them into nul sec. If I misread I apologize.

If more Ores were to be found only in low-sec. The price for those ores would skyrocket., that in itse;f would likely be a good thing as there is for too much easy money sloshing around in the game.

Personally I would NEVER take a mining barge into low-sec, no matter how valuable the ores to be found there. The risk is just too high. It will NEVER be worth the risk.

This is a situation created by the residents of low-sec, they only have themselves to blame.

PvPers do get one reward that industrialists do not get: the Adrenaline Rush. For them it feels good. For the typical industrialist the stress involved in PvP combat is just a pile of stress without any euphoria, and maybe with a feeling of being drained.

Absolutely. Getting high off PvP massively outweighs the build timer on yet another Dominix being shipped to Jita. Seriously, hisec missions make me want to gouge my eyes out or fall asleep. That anyone can handle that level of boredom is amazing. Props to the hisec industrialists for tanking one thing I never will be able to: boredom.

No. **** mining forever.

The thing about getting carebears into nullsec is actually because chances are it'd give them an incentive to stick with the game for longer. I mean, what would you have preferred, to sit in hisec and mine, and just press a button every few minutes and docking up every 45 minutes or whatever, haul the refined minerals to jita and rince repeat, or would you want to read a battlereport and see ships which you've helped build be used to defend your space, and feel like you've actually contributed to something greater than just your own wallet?

Really, never? What if you could make 1 billion ISK per hour in a 20 mill retreiver?

This scenario is obviously ridiculous, but I highly doubt that you would "NEVER" go there.

I would never go mine solo. Now if you had a mining fleet and also a fleet guarding them I might go. But my question would be: what PVP'er is going to sit in the guarding fleet watching miners mine?

Nobody, because it would be more or less a worthless activity. Mining barges etc either get the **** out whenever there's something even remotely hostile in the area, or they go pop. If anything, there could be a home defense fleet at the ready, but keeping a fleet in a system for hours upon hours just in case someone decides to saunter through is dumb.

Actually, what you could do is combine the two activities, so you'd have some people mining and some people running anoms while they wait for something to happen, that way both parties win.

THIS^ right there ^

is why Local should be removed in 0.0 space.

Think of all the great emergent gameplay.

]
That's right folks, Guys like this came to the PVP-centric game but stay in the "safe" space because of......the chance for PVP. But it's the rest of us who are the "problem"..

I would never go mine solo. Now if you had a mining fleet and also a fleet guarding them I might go. But my question would be: what PVP'er is going to sit in the guarding fleet watching miners mine?

Now I understand there is more money to be made in null from manufacturing but I am not ready to make the jump to null. .

Your problem is to understand and accept that PvP is NOT just pew pew. Thats why i wrote "For not inteligent ones: They want to interfere with other players but with solo gameplay"... Market is PvP, Industry is PvP, etc...

i dont want it.. i have it. Because eve is sandbox game and allows me to play this style (just like yours).

Do I have problem with nullsec corps and their gameplay? - NO
Do you have problem with my freelancer gameplay? - YES

."... so they "squat" in EVE just to tell us how WE are somehow doing it wrong"

Im not saying that you are doing something wrong. Im tellling you that you have disorted point of view.

When in the world did this happen?

You do realize that not everyone in null builds capital and supercapital ships, right?

You can't make more manufacturing in an area where you're drastically limitted by the number of people who are available to buy your stuff, esepcially when you've got to Q a production slot because they're all taken, it's not like high sec with thousands of stations at your disposal, and potentially hundreds of thousands of people to buy your crap.

Selling one thing for 1 one isk doesn't make you nearly as much as selling 100 things at .5 isk. That's one of the biggest diffences between null and high. You can sell in bulk at near what it cost to build and make more than I can selling at higher margins because I don't sell nearly as much as gets sold in high sec.

Nevermind the fact that I have to import most of the stuff required to build T2 goods, which makes my T2 have a higher final price than what comes out of high, and therefore, in some situation, impossible to sell in null if I build it.

It has been shown, repeatedly, that players who do join up with a corp, with actual people, and make friends with them, last longer in EVE .

Sorry my fault. You are correct on manufacturing. Should I have have just left it that there is more money to be made in null than hi-sec not specifying how? I don't play in low or null so I don't know what money can be made there. From what I read in the forums I should move there because there is more reward for the risk. I assume reward meaning, isk.

So you really don't know how to use the quote function huh "TharOkha"? .

Im not pure hisec guy. I occasionaly go ninja rat to null and believe me 80% of player I encountered, wanted to kill me. (Although there are some null regions with friendly players)

Your problem is to understand and accept that PvP is NOT just pew pew. Thats why i wrote "For not inteligent ones: They want to interfere with other players but with solo gameplay"... Market is PvP, Industry is PvP, etc...

"People like this just don't really "fit" into the game, not because they aren't doing things exactly the way we are, but because they really want some other "lone wolf" style game"

i dont want it.. i have it. Because eve is sandbox game and allows me to play this style (just like yours).

Do I have problem with nullsec corps and their gameplay? - NO
Do you have problem with my freelancer gameplay? - YES

Sorry but you truly are a fasist.

."... so they "squat" in EVE just to tell us how WE are somehow doing it wrong"

Im not saying that you are doing something wrong. Im tellling you that you have disorted point of view.

And everytime someone suggests making it more expensive to build in high sec, high sec people rage against it; yet not one person ever explains WHY it would be bad for you guys to have higher prices on manufatured goods. High sec players act like people can't afford higher prices, in the mean time those same people are spending near 600m on a plex. WTF.

You're NINJA RATTING in somene elses space, and then go on to make a statement about them blowing you up. ....
You have no right to complain abut that, and don't say you're not because that's exactly what you've been doing.

I know how-to. But i prefer italic and underline since there are limitation of maximum quotation per post

THIS^ right there ^

is why Local should be removed in 0.0 space.


Think of all the great emergent gameplay.

You KNOW how to do it "right" ie the way the people who set up the forums intended you to and the way that makes reading replies easier for others, but you choose to do it in a more complicated way because that's what you prefer. I really don't care how you do it, but if your going to do something, you must also accept that other people will comment on what you do, even calling ti stupid (and yes, your posting reply style is stupid).

That really is for me the source of my dislike. Do things as you please, but don't complain when you find yourself suffering the consequences of playing the game wrong lol

I have no problem with raising the manufacturing cost in hi-sec. I also have no problem with making so that refining in hi-sec is not 100%. It makes no sense to me why null can not refine at 100%.

I was against the mining barge and exhumer changes. I had no issues prior to the change. I have no problem with gankers or bumpers. Its what they enjoy. I have learned to adapt to these game styles.

I am against changing the mineral layout in hi-sec. Now, I would accept that mining belts move systems. I should have to scan down and move systems to mine.

Lol it is YOU that complains about "my-way-of-quotation-because-of-forum-limitations"

I don't know about anyone else, but whenever I see a badly formatted post such as what you've put forth, I tend to skip them outright. vOv

I have no problem with raising the manufacturing cost in hi-sec. I also have no problem with making so that refining in hi-sec is not 100%. It makes no sense to me why null can not refine at 100%.

I was against the mining barge and exhumer changes. I had no issues prior to the change. I have no problem with gankers or bumpers. Its what they enjoy. I have learned to adapt to these game styles.

I am against changing the mineral layout in hi-sec. Now, I would accept that mining belts move systems. I should have to scan down and move systems to mine.

If high sec as hypocricy, does low sec have lococricy?

If someone catching me because i stealing their rats... yes i understand.. you just protecting your teritory
If someone just passing by in a shuttle or pod and being killed by mighty gatecamp....somehow i cannot see any purpose.. And im not talking about passing your teritory. Im talking about NPC null or ordinary lowsec. Those guys sitting on gatecamp are not there to warmly welcome you. They are just sitting there and want to shoot anything that moves no matter if it is a shuttle or Titan (i know, you cannot gatejump with it) Actualy i dont see how this "activity" is more "fun" than sitting on belts and ganking veldspar- but as i said... Its their gameplay i have no problem with it. Just dont be so suprised why most of newplayers avoiding low/null (not me).

Again im not complaining. This is just my point of view of null sec players and their "gheto" mentality.

Again im not complaining. This is just my point of view of null sec players and their "gheto" mentality.

THIS^ right there ^

is why Local should be removed in 0.0 space.

Think of all the great emergent gameplay.

We need more high sec people like yourself.

You sir, are truelly a pillar of your community; deserving of much respect.

That should go in its own thread in In-Game Events called "urgent: destroy some random npc corp member's skiff"

Can't help but think that everyone is overlooking a simple fact - the changes they are so eager to make to push whatever out to null and to make null better than high sec do not fit with the game setting! High sec is supposed to be civilized space, with the protections of government and law enforcement. There is NO REASON it should not be the best place for industry. I agreed with the mining buff for the same reason - I'm in civilized territory, why should I have to armor as if I was in the middle of a war zone?

Sure, push the bulk of mining more into the frontiers (if you want to really annoy those who enjoy mining) or better make belts into something you scan down. Say, pockets one quarter the size of current belts, four times as many, and they respawn in a new place in the same system when mined out (with a delay). Give the bots and afk miners a setback, while not really hurting those of us that actually sit at our computers. Easy to justify, too: the regular belts in highsec are becoming depleted, and miners are having to search more for remaining resources.

As far as manufacturing in null...yeah, it should be possible to create industrial upgrades that bring an outpost close to the level of high sec, but to exceed it? In the lawless wastes? Not so sure on that.

Can't help but think that everyone is overlooking a simple fact - the changes they are so eager to make to push whatever out to null and to make null better than high sec do not fit with the game setting! High sec is supposed to be civilized space, with the protections of government and law enforcement. There is NO REASON it should not be the best place for industry.

Can't help but think that everyone is overlooking a simple fact - the changes they are so eager to make to push whatever out to null and to make null better than high sec do not fit with the game setting! High sec is supposed to be civilized space, with the protections of government and law enforcement. There is NO REASON it should not be the best place for industry. I agreed with the mining buff for the same reason - I'm in civilized territory, why should I have to armor as if I was in the middle of a war zone?

Because the gold rush happened on the east coast?

Or how about the fact that high sec has this group called concord, yet no one's paying them to protect them. In no country is freedom "free". Yet in high sec you don't pay anything for the safety you recieve, that is enforced by CONCORD.

Or are you trying to tell me that countries with the highest defense budget pays the least for that defense? The US begs to differ with you.

absolute rubbish

high sec players have a right to play how they want to

they pay to play

not pay to play your version of eve

Yep, the gold rush should be in less settled territory - that is where you find ABC roids, the last time I looked. Maybe CCP should rebalance the amounts of the various minerals needed for manufacture, placing a bit more emphasis on the top end. Removing all resources from high sec isn't the answer, though; the iron and copper mines don't suddenly dry up because gold is found in the Yukon.

As far as CONCORD is concerned, there is a tax on all trade, and fees for other things that are supposed to be the capsuleer's tithe to CONCORD. If it would make you happy, I'm sure most high-sec dwellers would be more than happy to see a reasonable increase, or even separate new fees of some kind. I do think that all such fees and taxes should be absent from null, or imposed only by whoever holds sov.

you're right, hisec players are the only ones paying to play this game

absolute rubbish

high sec players have a right to play how they want to[


they pay to play

Also,


Why would it be in the government and law enforcement's interest to let feared, immortal space demi-gods profoundly removed from the rest of humanity produce endless amounts of warships and weaponry in their space? "Come to Amarr Prime - Emperor's Station for a special deal on orbital bombardment modules and Tornadoes!". I mean, try to set up a military-grade bomb factory in your garage and see if the local government agrees to that. Really, it makes more sense if the private sector weapon factories were set up in the outbacks, unsupervised wastelands and criminal dens.

I dislike pitbulls. They're aggressive dogs that are notoriously dangerous and tempermental. I don't think anyone should be allowed to own one.

I'm not complaining; it's just my point of view.

for the record I love dogs, and thers's no such thing as bad dogs, just bad owners.