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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
41
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Posted - 2012.11.20 06:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
So moving stuff from place to place in eve isn't really all that dangerous, difficult, interesting, or that profitable most of the time. Piracy isn't all the profitable either. So why not ad more lowsec between the 4 empires. By more I mean, it would be utterly impossible to get from gallente space to caldari space without crossing lowsec at some point.
This would buff trading by making it harder, weird i know but hear me out. The less freighters going back and forth from jita to dodixie moving ice, the more expensive ice is in the area's where it can't be mined. Faction modules become items that must be smuggled across dangerous open waters. Pirates actively hunt badgers full of ore, trading corporations setup large fleets to escort freighters, etc. When I watch TV and see pirates they are plundering trade routes and making commerce harder, eve pirates don't really effect commerce at all.
Also maybe these new systems that border hisec should be strategically devoid of stations to make it harder for jump freighters to move things? Or perhaps the ability to setup a pos on one of these border areas would create a strategic harbor worth defending from pirates, while the owners of this tower can charge tariffs to cyno at their safe haven.
Imagine all the fun that can be had when you actually have to be at risk to move things? Sure their is suicide ganking but that only happens if your hauling a stupid amount of things or are just unlucky.
If this change was added i would consider a cloaking hauler to move items myself since I am not as inclined to do research to exploit the market under the current landscape.
Also with this change certain changes could be made to hauling ships to make them more capable of defending themselves, or be more easily escorted and defended from attackers. |
Luc Chastot
Moira. Villore Accords
89
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Posted - 2012.11.20 06:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
Because that's not something that happens. Borders between most countries are closely guarded, especially between sworn enemies. Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot. |
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
41
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Posted - 2012.11.20 06:54:00 -
[3] - Quote
Luc Chastot wrote:Because that's not something that happens. Borders between most countries are closely guarded, especially between sworn enemies.
Closely guarded by concord? You would figure that military presence and a 3rd party police enforcement would be completely unrelated as seen by the current militia situation. Also the gameplay improvement would greatly outweigh any damage to the lore. |
GizzyBoy
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
21
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Posted - 2012.11.20 07:34:00 -
[4] - Quote
join test concord's not getting in the way of them hitting freighters 300 + so far? |
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
41
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Posted - 2012.11.20 07:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
GizzyBoy wrote:join test concord's not getting in the way of them hitting freighters 300 + so far?
Sounds like extremely boring emergent gameplay.
Wouldn't you rather be a pirate in a armada of warships trying to take down the caravan of cargo haulers? Or maybe you and a small band of frigates are cruising the space lanes looking for a lone trader who has stuffed his cargo hold with the federation navy stasis webs that are in short supply in jita.
Instead of filling the freighter, setting destination, clicking autopilot, then halfway their you get your massive ship bumped like a tennis ball underwater while a group of ships 1 shot you which interrupts you watching tv.
I wanna be a pirate, not some guy who runs around looking for asshats to gank or to play grabass with other so called "pirates".
I wanna be a adventurous trader looking to make my fortune without pouring over data tables and spread sheets trying to manipulate prices by moving **** from homogenous trade hub to trade hub. |
GizzyBoy
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
21
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Posted - 2012.11.20 09:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
Commander Ted wrote:GizzyBoy wrote:join test concord's not getting in the way of them hitting freighters 300 + so far? Sounds like extremely boring emergent gameplay. Wouldn't you rather be a pirate in a armada of warships trying to take down the caravan of cargo haulers? Or maybe you and a small band of frigates are cruising the space lanes looking for a lone trader who has stuffed his cargo hold with the federation navy stasis webs that are in short supply in jita. Instead of filling the freighter, setting destination, clicking autopilot, then halfway their you get your massive ship bumped like a tennis ball underwater while a group of ships 1 shot you which interrupts you watching tv. I wanna be a pirate, not some guy who runs around looking for asshats running missions to gank or to play grabass with other so called "pirates". I wanna be a adventurous trader looking to make my fortune using my wits to navigate dangerous deep space without pouring over data tables and spread sheets trying to manipulate prices by moving **** from homogenous trade hub to trade hub.
I hear somalia is nice this time of year |
Daak Elibrium
Hybra Tech
0
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Posted - 2012.11.20 11:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
I like this id+Ža a lot. I feel that Highsec is to secrure as it is. I think people that start playing the game don't really need so much space to learn the ropes of EvE. And those that only likes PvE, could just stay in one section of Highsec and have enough to do. Even if they have to travel to other HighSec-regions there would only be a couple of jumps. Its not THAT hard to survive jumping through LowSec.
I think the Factions will feel more like "real" Factions, with some separation between them. More like "countries" and between them "no mans land."
The possibilites that some corporations will become full-time pirate and that some will be full-time "protectors/merc" etc. sounds exciting, and it would bring some more reason to PvP. The regions between the HighSec regions will probobly fill up with people wanting to PvP, Pirate or defend. Sounds great. It even brings people to communicate more with other players, if you need to haul something you probobly want to hire some protection etc.
Maybe a total of 3-4 jumps tops to get through to another HighSec would be enough, longer than that people might not even want to try.
The id+Ža is great I believe. Just some details to sort out first. |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
802
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Posted - 2012.11.20 13:22:00 -
[8] - Quote
Commander Ted wrote:GizzyBoy wrote:join test concord's not getting in the way of them hitting freighters 300 + so far? Sounds like extremely boring emergent gameplay. Wouldn't you rather be a pirate in a armada of warships trying to take down the caravan of cargo haulers? Or maybe you and a small band of frigates are cruising the space lanes looking for a lone trader who has stuffed his cargo hold with the federation navy stasis webs that are in short supply in jita. Instead of filling the freighter, setting destination, clicking autopilot, then halfway their you get your massive ship bumped like a tennis ball underwater while a group of ships 1 shot you which interrupts you watching tv. I wanna be a pirate, not some guy who runs around looking for asshats running missions to gank or to play grabass with other so called "pirates". I wanna be a adventurous trader looking to make my fortune using my wits to navigate dangerous deep space without pouring over data tables and spread sheets trying to manipulate prices by moving **** from homogenous trade hub to trade hub.
Hint: All those expensive mods? They'd be jumped directly to a lowsec station one jump out of the target empire's highsec space, and you'd find it even harder to gank them. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
266
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Posted - 2012.11.20 14:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
I had thought it was silly for warring factions to have systems intermixed like they are. If each faction was set up like a target, with the inter most area being the 1.0-0.8 systems, the next ring being 0.7-0.5 systems, after that the security slowly degrades to empire null sec, with only faction warfare low sec systems intermixing, ex Gallente and Caldari low sec would be mixed, but not with minmatar or amarr. And he whole package would be wrapped in sov null sec. Ideas for Drone Improvement https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1658683#post1658683 Updated 10/10/12 |
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
254
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Posted - 2012.11.20 14:39:00 -
[10] - Quote
Gate camping =! True piracy |
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Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
44
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Posted - 2012.11.20 17:11:00 -
[11] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:
Hint: All those expensive mods? They'd be jumped directly to a lowsec station one jump out of the target empire's highsec space, and you'd find it even harder to gank them.
Commander Ted wrote:
Also maybe these new systems that border hisec should be strategically devoid of stations to make it harder for jump freighters to move things? Or perhaps the ability to setup a pos on one of these border areas would create a strategic harbor worth defending from pirates, while the owners of this tower can charge tariffs to cyno at their safe haven.
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Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
44
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Posted - 2012.11.20 17:12:00 -
[12] - Quote
Pinky Denmark wrote:Gate camping =! True piracy Who says they would gate camp? Secondly their are so many other opportunities to be had pvp wise if more transit was going through lowsec |
Michael Loney
Skullspace Industries
35
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Posted - 2012.11.20 19:12:00 -
[13] - Quote
Take a look here, Not quite the same but with the same effects on hauling.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=164340&find=unread
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Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
46
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Posted - 2012.11.20 19:38:00 -
[14] - Quote
Not sure your idea would change anything. So i just have to pay someone to farm level 4's with my alt in fleet and I can go anywhere I please? How about we just ad or rearrange systems? |
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
46
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Posted - 2012.11.20 20:22:00 -
[15] - Quote
Also perhaps remove gate guns from lowsec in order to promote the use of light tackle and small gang fights. All gate guns do is penalize you for starting fights which discourages fun. |
Finn McCaan
1 man and his dog
0
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Posted - 2012.11.20 20:46:00 -
[16] - Quote
How about a faster route between hubs via low sec, possibly via faction war zones (20% of the time or similar?) - removing a secure route between empires would be an interesting experiment as it might lead to more insular (within specific empires) game play, if that would be a good thing or not is debatable.
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Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
47
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Posted - 2012.11.20 20:56:00 -
[17] - Quote
Finn McCaan wrote:How about a faster route between hubs via low sec, possibly via faction war zones (20% of the time or similar?) - removing a secure route between empires would be an interesting experiment as it might lead to more insular (within specific empires) game play, if that would be a good thing or not is debatable.
I think it would definitely be a plus to have insular empires, you would have a stronger sense of "Home" for you and your corporation. In event of a war it would be something a lot more localized. I think it would also build a stronger sense of community between the residence of that area. When I travel from jita to hek the only thing that changes are the stargates and sky color. If their were an actual barrier for me to cross for me to get their I might have a sense of being somewhere else and im not in my home with home being somewhere very far away. It would make eve feel a lot bigger.
Right now If they condensed hisec into 2-3 systems I think the only thing that would change are travel times. |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
804
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Posted - 2012.11.20 23:25:00 -
[18] - Quote
Commander Ted wrote:Danika Princip wrote:
Hint: All those expensive mods? They'd be jumped directly to a lowsec station one jump out of the target empire's highsec space, and you'd find it even harder to gank them.
Commander Ted wrote:
Also maybe these new systems that border hisec should be strategically devoid of stations to make it harder for jump freighters to move things? Or perhaps the ability to setup a pos on one of these border areas would create a strategic harbor worth defending from pirates, while the owners of this tower can charge tariffs to cyno at their safe haven.
So they jump to the gate, or an lowsec system bordering highsec that already exists. or to a pos. Thier own of course, not some trap set up by bored pirates. Or a safespot in an empty system with a webbing alt or two.
It'll take more than this kind of thing to shift the highsec masses into low. Thi just concentrates things in jita more, gives extra money to black frog and the like, and encourages even more people to mission in caldari space, surely? |
Ludi Burek
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
193
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Posted - 2012.11.21 00:02:00 -
[19] - Quote
Personally, I've always wished it would be like this and wondered why it is not. Given the history of nerfs of mechanics that offer rewards for creative and/or critical thinking, I can't see CCP ever implementing this sadly. It just makes it harder for "casual zombies".
Would be nice to have wild price differences between regions and those who take on the trade possibilities and succeed get handsome reward. Exporting caldari loot from scared bears to other regions would be fun.
Almost makes me mad that all the herpa derps are holding eve back from being this. |
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
50
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Posted - 2012.11.21 00:03:00 -
[20] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:
So they jump to the gate, or an lowsec system bordering highsec that already exists. or to a pos. Thier own of course, not some trap set up by bored pirates. Or a safespot in an empty system with a webbing alt or two.
It'll take more than this kind of thing to shift the highsec masses into low. Thi just concentrates things in jita more, gives extra money to black frog and the like, and encourages even more people to mission in caldari space, surely?
Of course if everything that is transported through lowsec is moved by jump freighter then fuel costs will surely cause a price differential. Also if you have to setup a pos in order to get your freighter through then that pos would make a nice target for someone who wants less competition moving ice. I also figure a good pirate organization would have a good opportunity to use a machariel to bump a jump freighter off a stargate if he deployed his cyno directly on it. Also who is to say that those current systems bordering hisec would border it anymore?
If more people mission in caldari space then ill make more isk from lp missioning elsewhere. If anything jita would begin to deflate since it isn't the cheapest place to buy certain items anymore. Maybe industry would be more biased to gallente space because cheaper fuel costs for a gallente pos. Also this is not a nerf hisec/ buff low thread, hisec will be just as safe as ever.
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Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
50
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Posted - 2012.11.21 00:38:00 -
[21] - Quote
While I know this change would never force a dedicated hisec bear who doesn't want to leave hisec to leave hisec, I believe that I become a hauling bear if this change was added. Encourage more pvpers to do pve that is effected by pvp, so pvp actually has a incentive. |
Crimeo Khamsi
AirHogs Zulu People
15
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Posted - 2012.11.21 01:06:00 -
[22] - Quote
I love this idea. I think it WOULD increase piracy, and it would make trade more exciting and rewarding. Probably not exactly in the way intended, though.
In order: 0) Anything that can be made within an empire would be traded by standard indy ships, and not pass the border in the first place. Otherwise: 1) Small, high value things like blueprints and faction modules = covops frigates running them 2) things like t1 modules, PI products, etc. (most stuff) = cloaky 3) Bulky, high volume stuff (but still not available within an empire) = jump freighters
The suggestions above that jump freighters would be used for EVERYTHING are frankly ridiculous. For one thing, jump freighters are very large. Efficiently filling them faster than people could do the same thing with smaller ships would require massively complex logistics skills (logistics in the normal everyday sense of the term). Without heavy hitting Walmart-style corporate freight routing software, eve players with jump freighters would either be late to every market, OR run half empty ships. Either one means they lose competitively to blockade runners and such that can fill their entire holds and that don't need isotope fuel (which has to be passed on in cost to the consumer).
In any case, all of those types of ships (covops frigates, blockade runners, and jump freighters) ALL require specialized skills and knowledge and investment and some risk. Goods that would need to be acquired from a different empire would therefore cost a lot more, and people with those skills and abilities would be able to make a more reasonable living out of them.
Pirates would also be able to make a slightly easier living too, because noobish people lured by the high profits would fairly routinely run regular non covops ships through the line attempting to move the relevant goods, which could be picked off.
Note: To make this whole idea work at all, there would have to be a pretty significant rework to the distribution of resources in the galaxy. Right now, there aren't a lot of resources that can only be found in specific quadrants of the empire. Something would have to be shifted around a bit to actually make transit over the borders to be worthwhile in the first place... |
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
50
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Posted - 2012.11.21 01:17:00 -
[23] - Quote
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
Note: To make this whole idea work at all, there would have to be a pretty significant rework to the distribution of resources in the galaxy. Right now, there aren't a lot of resources that can only be found in specific quadrants of the empire. Something would have to be shifted around a bit to actually make transit over the borders to be worthwhile in the first place...
I think that their are already a number of critical items that can't be easily moved that are exclusive to certain areas. Namely ice which is required for pos's which are a cornerstone of eve industry and warfare.
Not to mention datacores and the like along with navy faction ships which have seen a recent boost to use with the recent vomiting of them onto the market caused by FW plexes. Also market forces that might have occurred in certain areas but had effects that quickly spread to others would now have more localized effects. With most null alliances using jita to buy ships to sell in their own space it would be reasonable to assume that jita would have substantially higher prices than other places that could not be as easily filled by people dropping off a freighter full of drakes.
Also different empires do have different ores that spawn that could cause subtle changes to mineral prices that would be worth exploiting far more than they currently are.
Not to mention that this change would have immediately positive effects without major changes to industry right away although it may be recommended that this eventually happen. |
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
50
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Posted - 2012.11.21 02:04:00 -
[24] - Quote
Possible lore explanations of the different regions opening up.
The caldari-gallente one would be called "Black Void" and be a continuation of the recently opened "black rise" region. The gallente took the initiative in forming a stargate network in black void to counter the caldari colonization of black rise. The Gallente expansionism and new access path to caldari space has prompted the caldari to destroy all previous high security space stargates to prevent a rapid gallente incursion into the caldari home worlds.
The amarr-Minmatar one would be named "The Myridian Strip" a previously hidden network of ancient human stargates has been discovered by the angel cartel, fearing another slave revolt the amarr have closed down their stargates close to minmatar space.
just some ideas, not entirely relevant but still something that would need to be hammered out. |
Tawnia Baker
Interstellar Hollistic Agency A Point In Space
3
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Posted - 2012.11.21 02:28:00 -
[25] - Quote
So did i understand that correct, you want that there is no possible option to move from Empire 1 to Empire 2 without crossing Lowsec?
IF yes, then it sounds not bad at first, but only at first.
Currently if you look around in Low Sec and also 0 sec its around 95% of time the same "old story". Some wannabe pirates sitting around at stations, near gates in belts or another place somewhere in the system.
So the wannabe pirates sitting at the gates are doing what? Exact Gate Camping nothing else, the Wannabe Pirates at stations do what? Exactly Station Camping nothing more nothing less.
So tell me how should a new player who played weeks to get his first Iteron now move through low sec? He would be shot out of his Iteron within Seconds and after that shot out of his pod, and then? Doi you really think a new player will play again weeks to buy another iteron for exactly the same **** ?
And really i dont find many "real pirates" here in eve, most of them call themself a Pirate but are only some wannabe pirates who only wanna gank other people until they quit the game or play the game as they want. So tell me whats the reason for a so called "pirate" to destroy a empty Iteron from a new player? What does this pirate get from this kill?
As long as we have here in eve more wannabe pirates then pirates this cannot work. It could work, if those wannabe pirates become real pirates, pirates who really must work to get a good target, who must hunt it down with the risk to get caught by some police or mercs or anything else.
Currently this wannabes have a easy life, sitting at gates cloaked and waiting until something moves in that cant shoot back.
Also why its important that the pilot is podded too? why you must destroy the ship? Why not ask for ISK so the other player can pay to survive?`
REally i like your idea , but without some changes it cant work, also one of the changes must be some sort of defense options for the freighters, currently a freighter is slow has 0 defense options and 0 offensive options and thats something that must be changed too for your idea, if not, then its only more easy targets for wannabe pirates.
Cause really no one will move through low sec for a higher profit if he or she know that there is nearly 0 chance to survive this. And thats currently for freighter pilots most of the time a fact.
And removing Gate guns for what? To make it easier so anyone without knowledge of eve can become a wannabe pirate?
If piracy should become more profitable it also must be more risk. Many people complain that high sec is to secure and toooo much isk to make, so now i tell you, if piracy shoudl become more proftiable with changes from ccp so that people must fly through low sec then piracy must become more risk.
Buffing Freighters would be a option, making it impossible for 1 ship alone to scramble a freighter as example the obelisk. Or giving the freighters some offensive abilities and slots (not for big guns or such things but for some Target unlockers or boosters). Adding some sort of Buff to the freighters so they can align faster and are faster at warp.
Yes sure that would make piracy harder but if all people must fly through low sec you also get more targets. |
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
50
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Posted - 2012.11.21 02:39:00 -
[26] - Quote
Tawnia Baker wrote: Currently if you look around in Low Sec and also 0 sec its around 95% of time the same "old story". Some wannabe pirates sitting around at stations, near gates in belts or another place somewhere in the system.
A 2 week old noob may not want to consider using an iteron for moving things through lowsec. Local empire trading is profitable for a noob and may be more so in the future. Their are much smaller scale ways of trading in lowsec that are easier for noobs, he could fit a cargo frigate, train for a covops frigate, join a corporation that will help him scout with his badger, or use wormholes to bypass lowsec entirely if he is clever and lucky. The whole idea is that moving through lowsec is hard, but extremely far from impossible and I feel that you greatly exaggerate its difficulty.
Their is nothing wrong with pirating or gate camping, gate camps can be avoided and pirates can be fought.
If you want to move a freighter through lowsec then you should have friends, it should definitely not be self sufficient enough to fight off an entire pirate fleet. Also not being able to move freighters through lowsec at all without dying is one important reason for doing this as it makes it harder to transfer goods between markets making small scale trading more profitable.
Also the gate guns discourage fighting in lowsec which is bad. Large groups of pirates who camp gates do not fear gate guns. Smaller groups in smaller ships do, this leads to small battles being hard to initiate since the aggressor has to have a major advantage to have any chance of fighting.
Also pirates do not have a "easy" life, they must be capable of defending themselves to from other pirates. Living in low security space requires special logistical considerations that normal players do not care about. Pirates are prevented from moving goods out of trade hubs without a second account. |
GizzyBoy
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
21
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Posted - 2012.11.21 04:32:00 -
[27] - Quote
your idea wont have the consequences you hope to achieve.
Perhaps you should consider posting with your main char, as a npc corp char wouldn't last 10 mins gate camping in the manner your suggesting he would be, while attempting to "pirate".
gate guns should stay as is.
one of the primary reasons people avoid low sec is because of the "everything must burn" attitude on the low sec side of the gate.
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Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
50
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Posted - 2012.11.21 04:57:00 -
[28] - Quote
GizzyBoy wrote:your idea wont have the consequences you hope to achieve.
Perhaps you should consider posting with your main char, as a npc corp char wouldn't last 10 mins gate camping in the manner your suggesting he would be, while attempting to "pirate".
gate guns should stay as is.
one of the primary reasons people avoid low sec is because of the "everything must burn" attitude on the low sec side of the gate.
Funny I am a main, look at my killboard and my corp history, also I hope that isn't your main your kill history is a bit... weak however KB stats are irrelevant and I only bring them up because you suggested I was an alt.
Also CCP are nerfing gate guns with the crimewatch changes, they only fire if you kill a pod. Also you appear to be ignorant to the fact that people camp (or used to at least) camp like that quite often time. |
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
51
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Posted - 2012.11.21 08:59:00 -
[29] - Quote
Also the differences in certain commodities can't be to different from each other in different empires. If certain ores were more expensive in area's it may stunt industry. Although mineral costs for ships could be edited along with the quantity of the respective regions ore types so that the ships would cost less to build in the home empires. So instead of moving simple ore your moving entire ships making things more interesting and encouraging freighter travel over blockades runners.
Of course my industry knowledge is more limited so if someone who is familiar with building ships in high security space could elaborate on this idea more that would be nice. |
Crimeo Khamsi
AirHogs Zulu People
15
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Posted - 2012.11.21 19:01:00 -
[30] - Quote
Quote:So tell me how should a new player who played weeks to get his first Iteron now move through low sec? He would be shot out of his Iteron within Seconds and after that shot out of his pod, and then? Doi you really think a new player will play again weeks to buy another iteron for exactly the same **** ?
Uhh... 1) A new player can easily be flying an iteron in under a day from making their account (one or two dozen level 1 missions even are enough to pay for one, and the only skills are frigate lvl 3 and indy level 1 which take hours, not weeks)
2) A new player has absolutely no business flying high value high risk goods between empires through the proposed new low-sec boundary areas. Newer haulers would stick to hauling antibiotics and basic modules and ores and things, mostly, not inter-empire ice products, etc. The proposed change is only for BETWEEN empires, not within them, which would still be safe, high-sec-only routes.
Quote:Currently this wannabes have a easy life, sitting at gates cloaked and waiting until something moves in that cant shoot back. Again, as above, the people who would be flying through these low sec border belts would mostly probably be advanced players, not newbies. Players with blockade runners and escorts and scouts and things, making it more of an active and difficult (but rewarding) career to be a border pirate. You'd have to use real strategy to catch those more advanced ships, which seems to be exactly what you want, yes?
Quote:Although mineral costs for ships could be edited along with the quantity of the respective regions ore types so that the ships would cost less to build in the home empires. Yes, that's pretty much exactly what I was thinking. Amarr empire has a lot of minerals A and B, and not much of C or D, and amarr ships use a large proportion of A and B, but only a little C and D. Vice versa for Minmatar, etc.
So you can make amarr ships (and lasers and such) easily in amarr space, but if you want a rifter or projectile ammo, you pay a (small) premium, or go get it yourself across the border. |
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