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What ever happened to Tesselation?

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 8 post(s)
Buzzy Warstl The Strontium Asylum 236	Posted - 2012.12.20 18:35:00 - [91] - Quote Vrexstus Mercana wrote: i personally think the issue should be forced onto the player but rather as an optional requirment. most people dont have 2000$ they can just throw down on a gaming PC with bills to pay and what not. Be that as it may im considering getting parts for a custom PC and have someone else build it for me. Im not exactly tech savvy when it comes to the internal organs of a PC A brand new $50 video card can run DX11 quite well. For those that must run Windows, upgrades from Microsoft aren't all that much more than that. You want to be on a system with 4GB RAM to run any decent games anyway. You won't be running super-high resolution with all the bells and whistles enabled on a cheap machine, but it will still run DX11 and you aren't getting that now anyway if your system can only run DX9. http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
masternerdguy Inner Shadow C.L.O.N.E. 797	Posted - 2012.12.20 18:36:00 - [92] - Quote Buzzy Warstl wrote: A brand new $50 video card can run DX11 quite well. Oh and I'm sure it does hardware tessellation really awesome too Things are only impossible until they are not.
Vertisce Soritenshi Tactical Vendor of Services and Goods Partners of Industrial Service and Salvage 1906	Posted - 2012.12.20 18:43:00 - [93] - Quote CCP Mankiller wrote: Yes, mostly with their alts. Can't blame them... I can. BTW...I believe they stated that it would be a years worth of man hours. A man hour is one man working for one hour. I doubt it would take a FULL year if all the devs were working on it. I would expect that they could roll it out in one expansion if they wanted to. Then again...we got people using stone age PC's to play...so...yeah. Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
masternerdguy Inner Shadow C.L.O.N.E. 797	Posted - 2012.12.20 18:45:00 - [94] - Quote Vertisce Soritenshi wrote: CCP Mankiller wrote: Yes, mostly with their alts. Can't blame them... I can. BTW...I believe they stated that it would be a years worth of man hours. A man hour is one man working for one hour. I doubt it would take a FULL year if all the devs were working on it. I would expect that they could roll it out in one expansion if they wanted to. Then again...we got people using stone age PC's to play...so...yeah. ~man hours~ You make the wrong assumption that all devs are skilled in all areas. This is wrong. You also assume that simply tossing more devs on a project makes it go faster, and this is really wrong. Things are only impossible until they are not.
K0n Fus10n Sellsword Incorparated 9	Posted - 2012.12.20 19:25:00 - [95] - Quote masternerdguy wrote: ~man hours~ You make the wrong assumption that all devs are skilled in all areas. This is wrong. You also assume that simply tossing more devs on a project makes it go faster, and this is really wrong. He will make an excellent CEO one day though...
Pak Narhoo Knights of Kador 753	Posted - 2012.12.20 19:31:00 - [96] - Quote Futchmacht wrote: CCP Mankiller wrote: Tessellation REQUIRES DX11! So first we have to roll out a dx11 client... Working on it... but we need more dx11-capable customers... and that would be you... Dropdown menu in graphics card settings Option #1 DX 9/10 Option #2 DX 11 There are games that support both modes already.. i know it needs more HDD space if you switch from default DX9/10 the DX11 as well as the right video card but its not rocket appliances just more work :) And if people can "see" the difference from youtube or a buddies house they will want to upgrade there rigs.. i have even done that to a friend from other games.. "how come my game does not look like that?" .. "because your graphics card sucks dude" :) Its sounds easy user side, but from those who create it and have to maintain it, its a nightmare. Any change you add has to be working for both. As I wrote before, EVE once had 2 clients: "Classic" and "Premium". It cost CCP too much time and resources to maintain them both: http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=615 Hi, I'm CCP Arrow, I screwed up the.. ummm...
Buzzy Warstl The Strontium Asylum 236	Posted - 2012.12.20 19:35:00 - [97] - Quote masternerdguy wrote: Buzzy Warstl wrote: A brand new $50 video card can run DX11 quite well. Oh and I'm sure it does hardware tessellation really awesome too You just stopped reading right there, didn't you? Sometimes I wonder if it's worth typing more than 3 words on these forums. http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
masternerdguy Inner Shadow C.L.O.N.E. 801	Posted - 2012.12.20 19:37:00 - [98] - Quote Buzzy Warstl wrote: masternerdguy wrote: Buzzy Warstl wrote: A brand new $50 video card can run DX11 quite well. Oh and I'm sure it does hardware tessellation really awesome too You just stopped reading right there, didn't you? Sometimes I wonder if it's worth typing more than 3 words on these forums. I read it all, and its dumb. HW tessellation is one of the higher end features of this thing. A low end card will NOT be able to take proper advantage of the technology. Besides, to take advantage of tessellation requires redoing all the game assets so they can be tessellated, that is unless you want to run DX11 for the sake of saying you use DX11. Things are only impossible until they are not.
Leriss Serenthius Fearless Bandits SpaceMonkey's Alliance 4	Posted - 2012.12.20 19:42:00 - [99] - Quote I think that the best option would be to implement a system that would allow a user to pick a certain version of DirectX. Easy example: The user would be able at the start of the EVELauncher to pick which version to choose (DX9 client with an option to upgrade to DX11 in the future by just clicking a proper tickbox later on in the settings or go straight for DX11 client). Upon launch of DX11 client the DX9 client would be deprecated and only security/fixes would be released to it, no graphic/optimization improvement (except if there would be for example graphic glitches of course). I think that in time when the DX9 users will notice how much performance and shinies they can take advantage of when using the DX11 will make them upgrade their client via launcher to the DX11 one. Also an option to buy a DX11 GFX card with PLEX's at least for the first ~3-6 months after DX11 client release might be a viable option for those with a lot of ISK's, and also minor profit for CCP maybe.
The CandyGirl Candy's Toy Shop 9	Posted - 2012.12.20 23:08:00 - [100] - Quote Hakaru Ishiwara wrote: Captain Jaeger wrote: CCP Mankiller wrote: Don't get me wrong, I am a graphics programmer, I love everything new. But statistics show that only ~50% of the players run dx11-ready systems. So we don't want to shut them out for this Why not having 2 clients then ? A DX9 one and a DX11 one. I know a very popular MMORPG that has 2 clients so everybody is happy. In addition with Windows 8 the latest version of DirectX isn't DX11 anymore but DX11.1 CCP's version control, code management and regression testing systems are already pushed past the breaking point with their single PC client version. Look at the bugs that get re-introduced and previously working features broken with each patch over the past five years. CCP managing the code base and testing regimen for two clients? Also, Windows 8? Is anybody using that OS on a traditional PC? If they are they need to be shot, or at least made so they can't breed. We have enough stupidity in the world
The CandyGirl Candy's Toy Shop 9	Posted - 2012.12.20 23:17:00 - [101] - Quote Futchmacht wrote: CCP Mankiller wrote: Tessellation REQUIRES DX11! So first we have to roll out a dx11 client... Working on it... but we need more dx11-capable customers... and that would be you... Dropdown menu in graphics card settings Option #1 DX 9/10 Option #2 DX 11 There are games that support both modes already.. i know it needs more HDD space if you switch from default DX9/10 the DX11 as well as the right video card but its not rocket appliances just more work :) And if people can "see" the difference from youtube or a buddies house they will want to upgrade there rigs.. i have even done that to a friend from other games.. "how come my game does not look like that?" .. "because your graphics card sucks dude" :) One thing aswell with some dx11 features you can have it set to use the cpu instead or with the gpu. So you can have a weaker gpu if your cpu is good etc etc. I know antialising is one of the settings that has a cpu option on most new games. I know gw2 uses both your gpu and cpu to give you the best quality with a high fps
Xercodo Xovoni Directorate 1623	Posted - 2012.12.20 23:20:00 - [102] - Quote Daimon Kaiera wrote: AlleyKat wrote: It pre-dates pure pwnage...if anyone even remembers that now. Then T-bag died and no new episodes came out. I think I got the joy of waiting for, what, the last three in 2007? But then they started a more scripted show with pretty much the same premise on Hulu iirc The Drake is a Lie
The CandyGirl Candy's Toy Shop 9	Posted - 2012.12.20 23:21:00 - [103] - Quote Also before i forget again. The card used for that fanfest demo was a 560ti. Which are like 100-150 now so you dont need to spend 500 on the latest and greatest.
Sirinda Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium Kill It With Fire 132	Posted - 2012.12.20 23:24:00 - [104] - Quote CCP Mankiller wrote: Moonaura wrote: So basically CCP, you trolled us. Many games are coming out non XP in the next year. Really, this is the last year of XP. And no, you can't point at a concrete block and say, that is why, and say its pointless, when your own freaking demo at fanfest showed exactly why it wasn't pointless. Remember the crowd cheering for it? Remember people saying they wanted it? Right now the capitals look awful. I'm sure they might get improved at some point, but at this size, detail makes things look bigger than they actually are. Making stuff just larger with bad textures doesn't make them really feel all that big frankly. They are just filling more screen real estate. I agree: the capitals DO look awful. Trust me, the V3-project will make them look a lot better... (release: around summer 2013) But: dx11 doesn't make something "just look better", you have to use dx11 features! And that takes dev time... Please tell me you're having the Moros redesigned. It's probably the ugliest Dreadnought of the four. Then again, YMMV.
Denidil Evocations of Shadow Eternal Evocations 537	Posted - 2012.12.20 23:28:00 - [105] - Quote Jame Jarl Retief wrote: CCP Mankiller wrote: WinXP is the problem... It just won't die! Yeah, to be totally honest I was one of those folks who hung on to Win2K until just about everyone dropped support for it. Only switched to XP in late 2006 for Company of Heroes. WTF is wrong with you? use an up to date operating system. Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Denidil Evocations of Shadow Eternal Evocations 537	Posted - 2012.12.20 23:34:00 - [106] - Quote Hakaru Ishiwara wrote: Also, Windows 8? Is anybody using that OS on a traditional PC? yes. it has lots of nice perf improvements in the background. if you dislike the UI (Which i dislike it on anything that isn't touch capable) you can just get Stardock Start8 and you get your start menu back. Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Issler Dainze Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord 2211	Posted - 2012.12.21 03:00:00 - [107] - Quote CCP Mankiller wrote: Tessellation REQUIRES DX11! So first we have to roll out a dx11 client... Working on it... but we need more dx11-capable customers... and that would be you... Vendor agnostic DX tessellation was introduced in DX 11, I presented at WinHec (when I was working for the DX team) iin 2002 how vendor specific tessellation was possible in DX 9. Included a demo using Matrox hardware shipping at the time. At that time the games industry was seriously underwhelmed. But with current technologies I hope to see it someday. Issler
Issler Dainze Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord 2211	Posted - 2012.12.21 03:06:00 - [108] - Quote Leriss Serenthius wrote: I think that the best option would be to implement a system that would allow a user to pick a certain version of DirectX. Easy example: The user would be able at the start of the EVELauncher to pick which version to choose (DX9 client with an option to upgrade to DX11 in the future by just clicking a proper tickbox later on in the settings or go straight for DX11 client). Upon launch of DX11 client the DX9 client would be deprecated and only security/fixes would be released to it, no graphic/optimization improvement (except if there would be for example graphic glitches of course). I think that in time when the DX9 users will notice how much performance and shinies they can take advantage of when using the DX11 will make them upgrade their client via launcher to the DX11 one. Also an option to buy a DX11 GFX card with PLEX's at least for the first ~3-6 months after DX11 client release might be a viable option for those with a lot of ISK's, and also minor profit for CCP maybe. Coding and support nightmare. You pretty much make the art team develop assets for every DX level supported as well as significant different code paths for each level. Best option is to wait till you can make DX 11 a requirement. No idea how soon that could be. Issler
VonKolroth Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 21	Posted - 2012.12.21 03:09:00 - [109] - Quote I'm missing the Elite days,.. Can I have a wireframe mode?
Issler Dainze Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord 2211	Posted - 2012.12.21 03:09:00 - [110] - Quote CCP Mankiller wrote: WinXP is the problem... It just won't die! Up till 2 years ago (and maybe still) when I worked for RIM that still required XP as the corporate standard OS, wonder if that kind of thinking has something to do with where the are today...... Issler
The Hamilton The Circus Corp Intrepid Crossing 46	Posted - 2012.12.21 04:01:00 - [111] - Quote I'm on a ****** laptop without dx11 and if EVE changed to require it I'd be the first one out the door to upgrade. But I'm still curious, how hard is it to make the game compatible for both? dx10 and 11?
Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium 2261	Posted - 2012.12.21 04:59:00 - [112] - Quote The Hamilton wrote: I'm on a ****** laptop without dx11 and if EVE changed to require it I'd be the first one out the door to upgrade. But I'm still curious, how hard is it to make the game compatible for both? dx10 and 11? See post #108: you have to provide a complete set of assets (models & code) to handle each rendering system. Think about this: if DX11 lets you do things differently to DX10, you have to have that Revenant modelled the DX10 way and the DX11 way, since the DX11 way certainly won't work in DX10, and what is the point of using DX11 if you only use the facilities of DX11? It's not like DX11 will magically make that Revenant more detailed or curvy. That extra information has to be provided by the 3D modellers and programmers. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players
enterprisePSI 140	Posted - 2012.12.21 05:55:00 - [113] - Quote CCP Mankiller wrote: Tessellation REQUIRES DX11! So first we have to roll out a dx11 client... Working on it... but we need more dx11-capable customers... and that would be you... I remember when sm3.0 and above only, came.... So many tears.... Taking that into calculations, the player base will have reach dx11 capabilities in 4th April 2063.... The tears of the many, outweight the tears of the few. Or the one. enterprise-psi-¬ I made tweet, Y U NO FOLLOW!!!
Cealis Naarker Black-Listed Insidious Empire 9	Posted - 2012.12.21 12:21:00 - [114] - Quote "Art pushes technology, technology inspires art!" Get it done! FOR PROGRESS!!!!!!11
Brooks Puuntai Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 910	Posted - 2012.12.21 12:24:00 - [115] - Quote Does Eve really even NEED tessellation? It seems like something that SOUNDS cool to have, but not really needed. Due to Eve's engagement ranges and setup, being zoomed in close enough to see details actually puts you at a disadvantage.
Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium 2265	Posted - 2012.12.21 13:11:00 - [116] - Quote Brooks Puuntai wrote: Does Eve really even NEED tessellation? Does EVE really NEED 3D graphics? I remember playing Star Trek as a console game. And by console I mean VT100. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players
Duries Kain The Executives Executive Outcomes 0	Posted - 2012.12.21 13:20:00 - [117] - Quote I don't understand why people say you need a 800Gé¼ (1000$) plus rig for playing EVE with all the current and future improvements. My current PC cost around 400-500Gé¼ (600-700$) and it plays all games with high details and will play EVE now and in the future perfectly. Do your research and don't buy uber expensive and unneeded stuff. My setup: i5-2500K with good cooler @4GHz, GTX 460, Corsair 256GB SSD, random mainbaord that does the job and 8GB cheap RAM.
AlleyKat The Unwanted. 459	Posted - 2012.12.21 13:22:00 - [118] - Quote ihcn wrote: AlleyKat wrote: masternerdguy wrote: So you bought tons of enthusiast hardware and are mad that it is overkill? Without wishing to speak for the poster, I think it's more like "I pay a subscription which costs almost as much as a DX11 graphics card - my affinity towards the publisher of the game is waning". It's overkill for EVE, but EVE is not the only game. AK can i have your stuff when you quit I was interpreting what someone else said... GÇ£You go into combat, and itGÇÖs NOT going to be WagnerGÇªindustrial techno or really hard drum and bassGÇ¥ Reynir Hardarson, founding member of CCP Games, 2002.
Varesk Origin. Black Legion. 213	Posted - 2012.12.21 13:34:00 - [119] - Quote I have 99 problems, but running a dx11 client isnt one.
Mistress Motion Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 19	Posted - 2012.12.21 15:26:00 - [120] - Quote Brooks Puuntai wrote: Does Eve really even NEED tessellation? It seems like something that SOUNDS cool to have, but not really needed. Due to Eve's engagement ranges and setup, being zoomed in close enough to see details actually puts you at a disadvantage. Exactly, it seems that people don't still understand what tesselation is, so let's just think about it a little: Tesselation is useful ONLY when the 3d model comes so close to camera, that you start to see individual triangles in it. So it only creates more details when you look at it close enough. Now tell me gentlemen, when do you watch ships that close? Yes, almost never in the actual gameplay. This is not FPS game where you watch bushes and walls really close when you hide behind them. So in other words, you wouldn't see the effects of tesselation in the game unless you just spin ships at station close range, which is not really what should be a priority in development. If the 3D model is far away (as happens in this game 99.9% of time), there's NO REASON to tesselate it. Instead, the engine simplifies the 3d mesh, drawing less and less triangles as the model gets smaller in screen. That is called LOD (level of detail), and it has been in almost every game since the '90s. And it doesn't require DX11. Hell it was there before anyone used direct3d at all. So, again i want to ask. Why do we need DX11 support RIGHT NOW? Even the engine speed wouldn't be that much better, at least without huge workload of re-writing the whole thing and models.

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