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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
577
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 18:42:00 -
[1] - Quote
Quote: Dr.EyjoG repeated his statement from FanFest 2012 that the sinks and faucets in the game are not correct (which is relevant to the previous discussion) and pulled up a chart demonstrating this. By far the largest faucet in the game is NPC Bounty Prizes, at over 30T ISK/month. The biggest sink is Skill Books, at a mere 6T ISK/month.
Dr E mentioned that he will be later doing a blog this month I hope it includes this graph ( for say at least themonth of December). Such info is not without precedent last year CCP released this info & TwoStep compiled it very very nicely: http://twostep4csm.blogspot.com/2012/03/its-econmony-stupid.html
This sub forums would probablybe the best place to put forth ideas on new sinks & discuss current faucets. OUR LOGS SHOW NOTHING |
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
342
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Posted - 2013.01.16 19:48:00 -
[2] - Quote
NPC prices for everything need more increase.
Mission difficulty of NPC rats need an increase and payout increased depending on the specific difficulty of said rat in mission.
I propose, half the rats in missions get completely random difficulty modifiers, from 1-10, 1 would pay the least ISK for that rat kill 10 would pay the most and of course the drops must be stingy on the 10's and 1's while 7-8 yield meta 4 loot and a .0000001% chance for random officer type drop.
possibly even giving players a chance to play easy mode with half payout drops and bounty and regular mode for new changes to even things out commercially wise. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
215
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Posted - 2013.01.16 19:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
Bump manufacturing fees in highsec. If my estimates are correct, changing it from the current negligible system to a mere quarter percent of estimated value of the production job is worth upwards of 3-6T isk/month in sinks while having negligible effects on the sale price of items between players.
Different approach: Eliminate isk payouts and time bonuses for missions, replace them with an LP payout instead. This approaches the problem by both removing a faucet (roughly ~6T/mo by Diagoras' old numbers) and adding a sink (the isk required to spend that LP, which is typically 1000 isk per LP on the most convenient cashout items.) This also allows them to dial mission income around a bit, depending on the rate that they replace the isk payouts with LP at. For example, if they replace it at a 1000 isk per LP rate, then a mission runner would have to buy items with that LP that are worth a final sale price of 1000 isk/LP to maintain his previous income...but could increase his income by taking a more thoughtful approach to redeeming his LP than "buy as many implants as possible and dump to buy orders." This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3669
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Posted - 2013.01.16 20:31:00 -
[4] - Quote
CCP seem to appropriately be more concerned with money velocity than absolute values. Also, we don't have an important number: how much of those 30T end up segregated or abandoned (due i.e. to players turnover)? Without those informations it's not possible to balance inflow and outflow. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
217
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Posted - 2013.01.16 21:16:00 -
[5] - Quote
Velocity of money and the increasing thereof is the whole point behind my theory of PLEX pricing that I've floated around - ie, that PLEX respond to anything that lets you earn a lot more money, lets you earn it a lot more passively, or both. Relative sinks to faucets remain important because lots of isk in the game means lots of isk to impart that velocity on, if that makes sense, but an abundance of isk isn't necessarily the primary factor.
If they're "getting it", that's good to see imo. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
342
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Posted - 2013.01.16 21:20:00 -
[6] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:CCP seem to appropriately be more concerned with money velocity than absolute values. Also, we don't have an important number: how much of those 30T end up segregated or abandoned (due i.e. to players turnover)? Without those informations it's not possible to balance inflow and outflow.
This, is a bicycle made into an airplane. |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
579
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Posted - 2013.01.17 02:18:00 -
[7] - Quote
Here's my stab at proposing a new ISK sink: Paying out of bounties to NPC's ( & CCP DEVs) that kill capsuleer ships.
OUR LOGS SHOW NOTHING |
Candy Oshea
Techfree Investment Group
18
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Posted - 2013.01.17 02:27:00 -
[8] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:CCP seem to appropriately be more concerned with money velocity than absolute values. Also, we don't have an important number: how much of those 30T end up segregated or abandoned (due i.e. to players turnover)? Without those informations it's not possible to balance inflow and outflow.
in laymen terms, how do you "balance" the equation with a potential of 20-30% of that 30T on inactive accounts. |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
995
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 02:32:00 -
[9] - Quote
My idea for a sink is modular personal POS modules :P
I'd still love to see rat bounties given by sec, so we can see the breakdown between high, low, null.
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Candy Oshea
Techfree Investment Group
18
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Posted - 2013.01.17 03:16:00 -
[10] - Quote
Isk Sink: Name change & employment history wiped when buying character - cost 2 plex (destroyed)
re-invent yourself literally. |
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RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
322
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Posted - 2013.01.17 03:18:00 -
[11] - Quote
I didn't see Alliance fee's in the list. Should be a substantial amount
Also: Is there a realistic summary/equation that sums up the net results of ship losses in EVE?
And Last: Some peoples goal in ANY game, is to hoard ISK. This would be funds that never really affect markets or economies. I would think at some point, these same players will find a 'comfort zone' and quit generating ISK altogether. But really, my point is, does stale ISK (ISK in some random wallet) really hurt anything? |
Debra Tao
Perkone Caldari State
39
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 03:20:00 -
[12] - Quote
VV and Mynna are making a good point, it's not all about isk sink and faucet. I would bet that the income disparity in EVE is tremendous, while the mission runers, miners and low SP chars in null have an income ranging from 10 to 30/40 mil isk per hour there is that tiny portion of players and alliances that have a huge income.
You just have to read some blogs and read scc-lounge to see that a tiny portion of the player base can make billions each day. On top of that there are these major alliances that profit from moon goo to stockpile isk... All that act as an isk sink because the major part of the isk that goes into the wallet of Mynna, the CFC and so on won't be reinjected into the economy anytime soon.
FW has demonstrated this... The FW acted as a (temporary) transfer of wealth from rich traders buying implants in bulk to FWers. Thus making the average income per hour of FW grunts much higher than usually (coming from a mere 20-40 mil isk per hour to hundreds of isk per hour) and disrupting temporarily the PLEX market. It was no surprise to see the PLEX price fall back to a more reasonable price after the fix.
To sum up my thoughts there are probably too much isk faucets right now but it's not as big of a problem as some may think, the inflation has been mostly related to the drone region nerf. Removing bounty from high sec rats (giving more LPs in compensation) and maybe diminishing bounties in null (i am sure CCP can compensate that in some ways) seem like reasonnable ideas.
I don't see how you can say that bumping manufacturing fees in high sec will have "negligeable effects" on the market. |
Candy Oshea
Techfree Investment Group
18
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Posted - 2013.01.17 03:22:00 -
[13] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:I didn't see Alliance fee's in the list. Should be a substantial amount
Also: Is there a realistic summary/equation that sums up the net results of ship losses in EVE?
And Last: Some peoples goal in ANY game, is to hoard ISK. This would be funds that never really affect markets or economies. I would think at some point, these same players will find a 'comfort zone' and quit generating ISK altogether. But really, my point is, does stale ISK (ISK in some random wallet) really hurt anything?
Agree with you there, +Like
Whos to say all that 30T is actually in 'play'
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Debra Tao
Perkone Caldari State
39
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Posted - 2013.01.17 03:25:00 -
[14] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:
Also: Is there a realistic summary/equation that sums up the net results of ship losses in EVE?
Ship losses aren't an isk sink, there is no isk destroyed when you lose a ship only value the same way that a miner doesn't create any isk but creates value. Actually due to the insurance system it's more of an isk faucet than anything else and to be honest i don't find that system really interesting so i wouldn't mind if CCP just delete that. |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
322
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 03:41:00 -
[15] - Quote
Debra Tao wrote:RavenPaine wrote:
Also: Is there a realistic summary/equation that sums up the net results of ship losses in EVE?
Ship losses aren't an isk sink, there is no isk destroyed when you lose a ship only value the same way that a miner doesn't create any isk but creates value. Actually due to the insurance system it's more of an isk faucet than anything else and to be honest i don't find that system really interesting so i wouldn't mind if CCP just delete that.
I agree with you on the technical application of the words 'sink' and 'faucet'. Value loss is a good term for ship loss. My point is though, isn't value loss essentially the same thing? And doesn't it have the same leveling effect on macro economics?
Also: Add pod loss to my previous list. Implants = value loss in the same way. |
Debra Tao
Perkone Caldari State
39
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 03:52:00 -
[16] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:Debra Tao wrote:RavenPaine wrote:
Also: Is there a realistic summary/equation that sums up the net results of ship losses in EVE?
Ship losses aren't an isk sink, there is no isk destroyed when you lose a ship only value the same way that a miner doesn't create any isk but creates value. Actually due to the insurance system it's more of an isk faucet than anything else and to be honest i don't find that system really interesting so i wouldn't mind if CCP just delete that. I agree with you on the technical application of the words 'sink' and 'faucet'. Value loss is a good term for ship loss. My point is though, isn't value loss essentially the same thing? And doesn't it have the same leveling effect on macro economics? Also: Add pod loss to my previous list. Implants = value loss in the same way.
The thing CCP is trying to do when balancing isk sink and faucet is controlling inflation. When you lose a ship you wil have to buy a new one thus giving isk to manufacturers, explorers and whatnot so you will just transfer part of your isk to those people while CCP will only take a marginal cut from taxes. If these people get richer thanks to your loss they may buy new stuff thus rising prices while transferring the isk to yet another person in game... So ship losses actually tend to increase the circulation of isk ingame and if the circulation of a currency tend to increase then the inflation will increase too because everyone will have a higher income so will buy new stuff and so on...
So ship losses create an isk faucet (the insurance) that is clearly not compensate by the taxes. On top of that it increases the circulation of the currency thus it creates inflation. |
Candy Oshea
Techfree Investment Group
18
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 04:15:00 -
[17] - Quote
Debra Tao wrote: When you lose a ship you wil have to buy a new one thus giving isk to manufacturers, explorers and whatnot so you will just transfer part of your isk to those people while CCP will only take a marginal cut from taxes.
A killmail takes a 300m hulk/asset for e.g. turns it into item drops, a small insurance payout & a small amount of sorebutt.
Now, if i have to buy a new one, do i still have 300m? no. i have item drops & a small insurance payout. the game/myself has lost isk. whether the isk was 'sunk' directly by CCP from taxes or not is irrelevant, 300m isk has been removed from the game.
I believe what you are saying is that ship losses, stimulate & propagate industry types to make ships etc and sell them. thats fine, but i still lost isk in the first instance, not when i buy a new one.
i can't see it any other way. |
Debra Tao
Perkone Caldari State
39
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 04:33:00 -
[18] - Quote
Sorry to say it bluntly but i don't think you understand what this is about.
If your Hulk gets destroyed you will lose an asset, you will lose something valuable but the game will not see any isk being removed from that loss. Thus it's not an isk sink... The discussion here is not about if this loss matters to you will if you will have to grind isk a bit longer but if this loss will mitigate the creation of isk or will tend to reduce the inflation. In both cases it won't. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
759
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 04:37:00 -
[19] - Quote
Kara Books wrote:NPC prices for everything need more increase.
Mission difficulty of NPC rats need an increase and payout increased depending on the specific difficulty of said rat in mission.
I propose, half the rats in missions get completely random difficulty modifiers, from 1-10, 1 would pay the least ISK for that rat kill 10 would pay the most and of course the drops must be stingy on the 10's and 1's while 7-8 yield meta 4 loot and a .0000001% chance for random officer type drop.
possibly even giving players a chance to play easy mode with half payout drops and bounty and regular mode for new changes to even things out commercially wise. "this change would also greatly benefit new players"
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Candy Oshea
Techfree Investment Group
18
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 04:40:00 -
[20] - Quote
Debra Tao wrote:Sorry to say it bluntly but i don't think you understand what this is about.
If your Hulk gets destroyed you will lose an asset, you will lose something valuable but the game will not see any isk being removed from that loss. Thus it's not an isk sink... The discussion here is not about if this loss matters to you will if you will have to grind isk a bit longer but if this loss will mitigate the creation of isk or will tend to reduce the inflation. In both cases it won't.
Couldn't disagree with you more.
Do you consider an Asset as isk?
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Debra Tao
Perkone Caldari State
39
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Posted - 2013.01.17 04:42:00 -
[21] - Quote
can someone help me here ? lol |
Candy Oshea
Techfree Investment Group
18
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Posted - 2013.01.17 04:45:00 -
[22] - Quote
Debra Tao wrote:can someone help me here ? lol
teach me |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
322
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 04:49:00 -
[23] - Quote
Candy Oshea wrote:Debra Tao wrote: When you lose a ship you wil have to buy a new one thus giving isk to manufacturers, explorers and whatnot so you will just transfer part of your isk to those people while CCP will only take a marginal cut from taxes.
A killmail takes a 300m hulk/asset for e.g. turns it into item drops, a small insurance payout & a small amount of sorebutt. Now, if i have to buy a new one, do i still have 300m? no. i have item drops & a small insurance payout. the game/myself has lost isk. whether the isk was 'sunk' directly by CCP from taxes or not is irrelevant, 300m isk has been removed from the game. I believe what you are saying is that ship losses, stimulate & propagate industry types to make ships etc and sell them. thats fine, but i still lost isk in the first instance, not when i buy a new one. i can't see it any other way.
@ Candy. The part where your wrong is, "300m isk has been removed from the game" . Your first 300 went to a manufacturer/marketer. Your second 300 ALSO went to a manufacturer/marketer. The ISK itself, never left the game, and insurance created more ISK (faucet on) into the game. Sales fee's sunk a little of the isk. which brings us back to 'Value Loss'.
I think Value Loss, especially uninsured items, mods, implants, etc. can be treated the same as any other sink. |
Debra Tao
Perkone Caldari State
39
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 04:50:00 -
[24] - Quote
If you lose a Hulk you lose a ship but you don't lose isk so the total amount of money in the game stays the same and is even increased by the insurance payout. I really don't see how you can disagree with me on that. :P |
Debra Tao
Perkone Caldari State
39
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Posted - 2013.01.17 04:56:00 -
[25] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote: I think Value Loss, especially uninsured items, mods, implants, etc. can be treated the same as any other sink.
When talking about inflation i don't understand that and i am pretty sure you are wrong about that...
Player A finds shinny item and sell it to Player B Player B dies in fire because he is terrible at the game Player A still has the isk that Player B gave to him and can buy stuff with that...
Let's imagine that every sinlge player lose his pod tomorrow, there will be an increased demand for implants and there will be a huge inflation... |
Candy Oshea
Techfree Investment Group
18
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Posted - 2013.01.17 05:01:00 -
[26] - Quote
Are you saying there is no difference in me selling the hulk and losing it. |
Dersk
Paxton Industries Gentlemen's Agreement
125
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 05:02:00 -
[27] - Quote
Candy Oshea wrote:A killmail takes a 300m hulk/asset for e.g. turns it into item drops, a small insurance payout & a small amount of sorebutt.
Now, if i have to buy a new one, do i still have 300m? no. i have item drops & a small insurance payout. the game/myself has lost isk. whether the isk was 'sunk' directly by CCP from taxes or not is irrelevant, 300m isk has been removed from the game.
The 300mil isk wasn't removed from the game. If you bought the hulk from me (for example), I still have that isk. It just changed hands. If and when you lose that hulk doesn't do anything to that isk in my wallet. You losing 300 million isk and EvE losing 300 million isk aren't the same thing, so "the game/myself" isn't correct.
When you buy a skillbook (from an NPC order) that isk doesn't change hands. That isk is destroyed. There's no other person that received that money.
There's a difference between dropping a $1 apple down the garbage disposal and flipping the switch, and setting fire to a dollar bill instead. Either way you've lost ~wealth~, but they can't be considered equal on a macro economic scale. |
Candy Oshea
Techfree Investment Group
18
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Posted - 2013.01.17 05:10:00 -
[28] - Quote
Dersk wrote:Candy Oshea wrote:Are you saying there is no difference in me selling the hulk and losing it. There is no difference to the amount of isk in the game in those two, outside of the insurance payout you receive. It's the difference between dropping a $1 apple down a garbage disposal, and setting fire to a one dollar bill. Just because you can go to a grocery store and exchange them doesn't mean the two are the same.
there is a 300m difference, i could sell the item, if i lose it i can't. |
Dersk
Paxton Industries Gentlemen's Agreement
125
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Posted - 2013.01.17 05:12:00 -
[29] - Quote
Candy Oshea wrote:
there is a 300m difference, i could sell the item, if i lose it i can't.
Unless the isk the the other person's wallet (y'know, the one you bought it from?) is destroyed when you lose your hulk, no, you're wrong. There isn't a 300 million isk difference in EvE.
Your wallet and the sum of isk in EvE are not synonymous. |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
322
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 05:12:00 -
[30] - Quote
Implants come from LP stores...so they somewhat sink the isk, or half of the purchase cost. The rest is an LP/ISK conversion rate. There would be inflation at first, but marketers would also 1-isk the prices right back down at some point.
Value loss on other items. Has to be healthy for the economy in some way. I'm not argueing to be bull headed btw, I truly believe it. |
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