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Omen Nihilo AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 105	Posted - 2013.01.19 04:27:00 - [31] - Quote A Moros warps in at 30-40km and it doesn't matter whether or not you're webbed. It'll still get a lucky shot and alpha right through you. Also, in my opinion you should never be forced to counter with ecmGÇöthere should always be something else you can do. Just my opinion. Of course it's not like you can't ever take on a dread supported fleet. But your opponents have to be ******** and warp them right on top of you or something. There's pretty much nothing you can do if they come in at range. The way to get fights in w-space now is to somehow trick your opponents into a position in which you have the upper hand (which is pretty much synonymous with "having more dreads"). I just wish w-space pvp could become tactics/skill-based again instead of this positioning BS. Something needs to change if w-space pvp is to become fresh again.
Bane Nucleus The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost 302	Posted - 2013.01.19 04:52:00 - [32] - Quote Maybe the key is to not allow caps in wh space at all. Problem solved! Alliance CEO, Diplomat, Recruiter
Winthorp Future Corps Sleeper Social Club 43	Posted - 2013.01.19 05:03:00 - [33] - Quote Bane Nucleus wrote: Maybe the key is to not allow caps in wh space at all. Problem solved! May as well, people seem to think you shouldn't be "forced" to bring ships you don't want to bring.... I do agree it has been going down the wrong road with cap fights lending to many blue balled fights, but to say its the dreads fault is like pissing in the wind.
Omen Nihilo AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 105	Posted - 2013.01.19 05:37:00 - [34] - Quote Of course it's not solely because of dreads. With several TPs and webs I think they should be able to hit cruisersGÇöthough maybe not for full damage. They should remain a serious threat. I think home advantage should stay. But right now their ability to hit T3s is just ridiculous. In general w-space fighting has become very formulaic. Fleet comp is king and piloting skill plays too small a role. I agree that fleet comp is crucial, but these days it's rare to find a battle where piloting skill actually could make a difference. It's all about what ships were brought. I'd like to see more variety in fleet comps and less reliance on capital ships. Again, just my opinion. @Winthorp, do I really need to explain to you why I shouldn't be forced to bring ecm? Anyways, I'm tired and rambling...
AutumnWind1983 Future Corps Sleeper Social Club 23	Posted - 2013.01.19 06:16:00 - [35] - Quote Diego Sarmoti wrote: To me it is more of a dread balancing issue than anything else. Why would one dread do 50% more dps than the next best dread and still be able to track better? Why is one dread completely worthless and the nag just marginally better? I think this gets to the heart of the matter. Compared to the other dreads the Moros is ridiculous, with the Rev decent and the other two being just sad. Omen Nihilo wrote: @Winthorp, do I really need to explain to you why I shouldn't be forced to bring ecm? Anyways, I'm tired and rambling... I'd like to hear it. Why shouldn't you have to bring a well rounded fleet comp? Ayeson wrote: If you're looking for a completely proactive fleet, you better have 20+ guys in every flavor of T3, ready to Web, TP, Scram, Neut and Jam and do absolutely whatever, whenever, to anyone, anytime, in wormhole space. I think Ayesons is right, if you want to bring a fight with the current meta you need to have all the tools available with a well rounded fleet. At the end of the day I think you should need to bring a well rounded fleet and that the Moros is a bit out of line with the other dreads. You also have to be willing to take losses and punch above your weight.
Jack Miton Aperture Harmonics K162 1289	Posted - 2013.01.19 06:36:00 - [36] - Quote Ayeson wrote: and once you're under the dread's guns, they can't hit you anyway. yeah, except it can hit you quite easily with support, even in a tight orbit.
Rhavas Future Corps Sleeper Social Club 128	Posted - 2013.01.19 07:30:00 - [37] - Quote Random Woman wrote: There is a dread, there is a loki with webs and targetpainters, and then everything else just dies. That would be fine, however through the nature of wormholes it's rather had to fight at the other guys place, because you have 3 caps max, and they normally have 10+. So unless you plan your visit many weeks ahead - well lets say things can get ugly fast. I'm not sure why this is a problem. Yes, it takes some actual work and planning. But it can be done by any similar-sized corp that decides to do so. I suspect if you ask the big boys in nullsec they would also tell you that taking things over requires planning and if you don't plan, things get ugly fast. No problem - it's called strategy & tactics. It's not a lowsec roam.
Jack Miton Aperture Harmonics K162 1290	Posted - 2013.01.19 08:09:00 - [38] - Quote Bane Nucleus wrote: Honestly, CCP should focus on more pressing concerns, like POSs. this is very true
Casirio DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exhale. 342	Posted - 2013.01.19 10:21:00 - [39] - Quote Really? Wtf is this thread? When has dread blapping t3s become a serious issue for us in Exhale personally? As said already, ecm tengus with minmatar jammers...there are a lot of other issues which should be addressed about dreads such as the moros being completely OP. This thread is silly
Rek Seven DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exhale. 586	Posted - 2013.01.19 11:51:00 - [40] - Quote Chitsa Jason wrote: Dread blaping is a serious issue for groups who are going proactive. The way i personally see it dreads should be able to hit bs targets exactly the same they do now. They should not be able to hit cruisers or even frigates. Dread shoud be feared weapon against capitals or battleships. So basically dreads shouldn't be used in pvp, just structure bashing? Doesn't make much sense to me. Why i play EVE:-á20% for gameplay experience, 30% for the social aspect and 50% because of CCPGÇÖs empty promises.-á

ThaDollaGenerale Hard Knocks Inc. 4	Posted - 2013.01.19 12:41:00 - [41] - Quote Two step wrote: FYI, this isn't something that I just came up with out of thin air, this has been a frequent complaint I have heard from many different corps and alliances. What makes EVE PVP great is that you should always be able to counter a specific fleet setup without just bringing 2x the numbers. That isn't the case with dreads + webs/painters. If you can't figure out a way to kill a group of dreads with web/TP support WITHOUT 2X the numbers, you're an awful fleet commander. The issue as two step defines it really sounds like people want to be able to roll a group of dreads + support involved in sites with whatever garbage pail fleet of failfit hurricanes and thoraxes they have at that moment. Hard Knocks has had many missed opportunities to kill a bunch of dreads running sites not for lack of numbers, but for lack of a specific composition. When we do kill dreads we roll out a number of specific "site running" dread killing fleets. Example: "OH GOD NOOB LOLOLOL YOU BLOBBED!!one," you might say. In return, I say that we brought an amount of isk comparable to the dreads lost. In my eyes, if we had died because of a screwup, we would have lost the same amount of money as the dreads. Yes, fleet comps in WHs are far more screwy than in k-space, but I thought that was the whole point? The way I look at it is not the numbers brought but by the isk brought on each side of the field. My opinion is that CCP would want a 3 Bhaal + T3 + Support fleet to be roughly equal in ISK cost to the dreads they are killing. So to all you decidedly unimaginative FCs out there whining about dreads. You will continue your dying to dreads as long as you don't actually think about the game, enjoy being awful. Really, I think we should be addressing the issue of caps being warped to gates and THEN being dread blapped, as it seems from this thread that there are far more idiots in this game than w-space dwellers.
Hathrul DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exhale. 183	Posted - 2013.01.19 14:05:00 - [42] - Quote i dont think dreads are the problem, the moros is. after the changes the moros has become the best dreadnaught in everything. great tracking, great damage projection over ranges and more damage then any of the others can even come close too. you can argue what you want, but that change made a big change for wormhole space. and the post above this is the perfect example. old style fleet with some bhaalgorns to neut the dreads and they die. the problem comes when there are webbers on the field. where you can evade or semi-tank the old dreadnaughts, with the insane damage a moros puts out battleships are just a no go unless in immense numbers to nearly alpa capacitor on dreads. if you cant, and there are webbers on the field, your battleship is dead. if the post above had loki's on the dreadnaught side, id say the dreads would have taken it assuming there was something to keep the loki alive. as for "if you cant figure out how to kill a webber with twice the numbers youre a terrible fc", fine, do tell. how do you break through the remote rep on a triage archon? you cant bring bhaals, because they die to dreads, and you need about 10 neuting legions to cap out a good archon pilot. And how many wh alliances can field a fleet with 10 neuting legions, and then enough of everything else to still fight? the moros is overpowered. and it changes the fleet dynamics in wormhole space. we'll find a way around it eventually, but its not as simple as some people here claim
Roime Shiva Furnace 1713	Posted - 2013.01.19 14:15:00 - [43] - Quote nerf Gallente -á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars -
Prince Mammon 24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire 5	Posted - 2013.01.19 14:30:00 - [44] - Quote Two step wrote: I built my CSM run on helping wormhole space, now I'm just going to try and get it nerfed, HAHA suckers Thanks alot Two face, glad to know I wasted that CSM vote. CCP Gargant: "a total blanket no-tolerance policy was enacted on accusing the ISD of misbehaving" Who else said there people couldn't be accused of misbehaving? Nothing to see here, move along.
Mia Restolo Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 87	Posted - 2013.01.19 14:53:00 - [45] - Quote Hathrul wrote: as for "if you cant figure out how to kill a webber with twice the numbers youre a terrible fc", fine, do tell. how do you break through the remote rep on a triage archon? Umm... you use E-war to negate the webbers? (damps, ecm) If you think the only option you have is MOAR DEEPS you ARE a terrible FC because in your rock vs paper fight you forgot about scissors. If you can't get the right fleet composition, you don't have the gang to take them on and deserve to die if you try.
Rengas AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 66	Posted - 2013.01.19 15:13:00 - [46] - Quote Mia Restolo wrote: Hathrul wrote: as for "if you cant figure out how to kill a webber with twice the numbers youre a terrible fc", fine, do tell. how do you break through the remote rep on a triage archon? Umm... you use E-war to negate the webbers? (damps, ecm) If you think the only option you have is MOAR DEEPS you ARE a terrible FC because in your rock vs paper fight you forgot about scissors. If you can't get the right fleet composition, you don't have the gang to take them on and deserve to die if you try. You are terrible. Stop posting. Also damping someone in an armor brawl is super effective.
Ayeson Hard Knocks Inc. 209	Posted - 2013.01.19 15:31:00 - [47] - Quote Hathrul wrote: if the post above had loki's on the dreadnaught side, id say the dreads would have taken it assuming there was something to keep the loki alive. You missed the part where he said that was a site running dread killing fleet, i.e. dropping on top of the dreads, so the dreads really don't get a chance to do much, seeing as they get neuted as soon as the bhaals land. You can do it sans neuts too, like HERE ThaDollaGenerale wrote: If you can't figure out a way to kill a group of dreads with web/TP support WITHOUT 2X the numbers, you're an awful fleet commander. Hathrul wrote: as for "if you cant figure out how to kill a webber with twice the numbers youre a terrible fc", fine, do tell. how do you break through the remote rep on a triage archon? you cant bring bhaals, because they die to dreads, and you need about 10 neuting legions to cap out a good archon pilot. And how many wh alliances can field a fleet with 10 neuting legions, and then enough of everything else to still fight? Badquoting, but I would just bring something to jam the lokis, you dont need to target the archon when you can just make the loki's useless. Path of least resistance. Ask me about Rengas-dar, HRDKX's Most recent, groundbreaking, game-changing, wormhole-collapsing research endeavour.
Omen Nihilo AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 109	Posted - 2013.01.19 15:39:00 - [48] - Quote Mia Restolo wrote: Umm... you use E-war to negate the webbers? (damps, ecm) You literally have no idea what you're talking about. All it takes is one missed jam and you're alpha'd. And there's no way you're permajamming my Loki w/ 66.9 sensor strength. ThaDollaGenerale wrote: Example Those are sniper dreads. If they were close-range fit with loki and archon support they probably could've taken you (assuming they aren't retards in the first place). And the real problem is if they bring in dreads at range. Hathrul wrote: old style fleet with some bhaalgorns to neut the dreads and they die. the problem comes when there are webbers on the field. where you can evade or semi-tank the old dreadnaughts, with the insane damage a moros puts out battleships are just a no go unless in immense numbers to nearly alpa capacitor on dreads. You hit the nail on the head. A tracking Moros with strong Drop tracks twice as well as an arty Maelstrom. That wouldn't be such a problem if it didn't do upwards of 15k dps.
Ayeson Hard Knocks Inc. 209	Posted - 2013.01.19 15:45:00 - [49] - Quote Omen Nihilo wrote: Hathrul wrote: old style fleet with some bhaalgorns to neut the dreads and they die. the problem comes when there are webbers on the field. where you can evade or semi-tank the old dreadnaughts, with the insane damage a moros puts out battleships are just a no go unless in immense numbers to nearly alpa capacitor on dreads. You hit the nail on the head. A tracking Moros with strong Drop tracks twice as well as an arty Maelstrom. That wouldn't be such a problem if it didn't do upwards of 15k dps. Agreed Ask me about Rengas-dar, HRDKX's Most recent, groundbreaking, game-changing, wormhole-collapsing research endeavour.
Rek Seven DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exhale. 587	Posted - 2013.01.19 15:49:00 - [50] - Quote How much dps does a revelation do? Why i play EVE:-á20% for gameplay experience, 30% for the social aspect and 50% because of CCPGÇÖs empty promises.-á

Omen Nihilo AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 109	Posted - 2013.01.19 15:52:00 - [51] - Quote 9k dps... with about half the tracking.
Rek Seven DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exhale. 587	Posted - 2013.01.19 16:13:00 - [52] - Quote Okay so not too far off the Moros. Since neither dread is effective without support (i.e. Web loki) is the tracking that big of an issue. Let's say ccp nerf the Moros' tracking, wouldn't support fleets just need to bring more webs and/or target painters? where would these nerfs end? When dreads can't target sub BS hulls anymore or when all dreads are exactly the same and we're all flying vanilla ships? Why i play EVE:-á20% for gameplay experience, 30% for the social aspect and 50% because of CCPGÇÖs empty promises.-á
Hathrul DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exhale. 186	Posted - 2013.01.19 16:40:00 - [53] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: Okay so not too far off the Moros. Since neither dread is effective without support (i.e. Web loki) is the tracking that big of an issue? Let's say ccp nerf the Moros' tracking, wouldn't support fleets just need to bring more webs and/or target painters? where would these nerfs end? When dreads can't target sub BS hulls anymore or when all dreads are exactly the same and we're all flying vanilla ships? not to far off? thats like 7k dps off. with much better tracking. rev's are fine, moros are scary as fck atm. as for ecm and damps, yes, you can use those on webbers. problem is that a smart fc will bring a lotta webs, eccm, remote eccm just to prevent that. and unlike the attacking side that needs to get near perma jams, the defending site just needs a single cycle to waste your bhaal as for 3 bhaals vs 3 dreads....dont think you can neut them flat fast enough
Omen Nihilo AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 111	Posted - 2013.01.19 16:45:00 - [54] - Quote Uhmm... the difference between 9k and 15k dps is huge. And the tracking matters. Before the Moros buff (not to mention the addition of t2 siege) you could bring bhaals and evade/mitigate/semi-tank a couple dreads long enough to neut them down. I think CCP should drop Moros dps levels down to 12-13k and nerf the tracking by 15% or so.
Rek Seven DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exhale. 587	Posted - 2013.01.19 17:10:00 - [55] - Quote Yeah that sounds reasonable. Knocking 3-5k dps is irrelevant when you think about it, as all it means is the defenders (and that what we are talking about - defence dreads) need to recruit/train additional dread pilots to make up for the loss. Additional webs/tp's in fleet would make up for the reduced tracking... So high level wormhole pvp with be even more of a numbers game than it is now. I think the answer to the issue that some people seem to have is a change to the mechanics rather that a change to the ships... But that is just my opinion, i am a newb when is comes to caps Why i play EVE:-á20% for gameplay experience, 30% for the social aspect and 50% because of CCPGÇÖs empty promises.-á
AutumnWind1983 Future Corps Sleeper Social Club 23	Posted - 2013.01.19 20:03:00 - [56] - Quote Numbers for thought. Per EFT, a Rev with all V's, triple damage mods, t2 siege, meta guns, and faction crystals will do 10320, a Moros 14190. A Nag with three gyros, two navy bcs, meta highs, t2 siege, faction ammo will do 11520. I have no idea how to fit a phoenix, haven't seen enough of them out there. If you put three tracking computers with tracking scripts on your moros your tracking is 0.01299. Your rev is 0.00506. You can't do that with Nag without killing your tank. Despite this it tracks at 0.00608. With those same scripts the Moros can hit at 21+19. The Rev 36+24. The Nag 17+36. Take from that what you will.
ExookiZ The Dark Space Initiative 26	Posted - 2013.01.20 00:19:00 - [57] - Quote So you understand Autumn capital misiles dont deal damage. What EFT says and what a naglfar actually does are much different. You may as well not have citadel torps/cruises fit to your ship. Even with webs and paints your lucky if you get 3 digits. Most of the people saying it isnt a problem/ "just use ECM" obviously dont encounter this tactic often. I encourage you to come bring ECM tengus against a fleet of dreads. they will 1 shot your tengus. If you land the dreads 30-40 out in different directions, you can nail t3s without a single web/TP. And no mater what direction you fly your getting "under" the guns of one dread and only reducing your transversal to the others. We have tested this on SISI, with 0 sub caps the dreads can still blap a t3 fleet off the field. Not as successfully as with webs/tps of course but it will still happen. The problem here is that dreads+ range and your looking at a mexican standoff, as long as it boils down to caps home field advantage will always triumph. The only good fights you get is when you choose not to use your cap fleet and even at the risk of losing have a good time. Something that doesnt happen often enough.
Rroff The Xenodus Initiative. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 186	Posted - 2013.01.20 00:35:00 - [58] - Quote Only real solution is to use sig damage scaling like titans aka properly working tracking formula but not to the degree it is on titans (even then some stuff can be bloomed up enough to apply a lot of damage). Not a great fan of that change happening especially as it would hit other dreads harder than the moros probably. Personally tho I know it wouldn't be a popular one I'd rather see the moros get its old drone capabilities back and turret capabilities reduced back closer to the revelation. It still has good dps that way but without the same levels of alpha and gives the attackers the option of killing its drones. (One thing I don't want to see is all the dreads end up copy and paste versions of each other with slightly different models).
Two step Aperture Harmonics K162 3106	Posted - 2013.01.20 02:53:00 - [59] - Quote Sorry, I got a little busy, and didn't get back to this thread until now. I do think a large part of the problem is the tracking on the Moros, and perhaps with that fixed blapping wouldn't be as big of an issue. As for the "bring ECM" argument, you are missing the point. So now I need to bring both ECM ships as well as more DPS ships to counter Lokis + dreads. As was pointed out, miss a jam or two and you are screwed. CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Winthorp Future Corps Sleeper Social Club 44	Posted - 2013.01.20 03:16:00 - [60] - Quote Two step wrote: Sorry, I got a little busy, and didn't get back to this thread until now. I do think a large part of the problem is the tracking on the Moros, and perhaps with that fixed blapping wouldn't be as big of an issue. As for the "bring ECM" argument, you are missing the point. So now I need to bring both ECM ships as well as more DPS ships to counter Lokis + dreads. As was pointed out, miss a jam or two and you are screwed. But if the other fleet has thought about their composition enough to bring DPS and utility webbing ships why should they now be penalized because you don't want to?



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