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Bane Nucleus
The Kairos Syndicate
Transmission Lost
304
   |
Posted - 2013.01.20 03:59:00 -
[61] - Quote
Winthorp wrote:
But if the other fleet has thought about their composition enough to bring DPS and utility webbing ships why should they now be penalized because you don't want to?
This. I didn't realize it was a problem to have to adjust for different comps. 
Alliance CEO, Diplomat, Recruiter |
Diego Sarmoti
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
4
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 04:15:00 -
[62] - Quote
Winthorp wrote:
But if the other fleet has thought about their composition enough to bring DPS and utility webbing ships why should they now be penalized because you don't want to?
I agree with this other than the implication thinking was involved. |
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
557
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 04:21:00 -
[63] - Quote
Why is it suddenly a big deal to have ECM with you? Don't most roaming fleets have one or two ECMgus/Falcons already?
Like I said back on the first page, why is this a thread? There is no problem here for your solution to fix. |
Rhavas
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
128
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 05:02:00 -
[64] - Quote
Two step wrote:Sorry, I got a little busy, and didn't get back to this thread until now. I do think a large part of the problem is the tracking on the Moros, and perhaps with that fixed blapping wouldn't be as big of an issue.
As for the "bring ECM" argument, you are missing the point. So now I need to bring both ECM ships as well as more DPS ships to counter Lokis + dreads. As was pointed out, miss a jam or two and you are screwed.
With all due respect, yes. Plan. Wormholes are hard mode.
I would have thought that was Combat 101 to an AHARM guy.
|
Serendipity Lost
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
2
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 05:31:00 -
[65] - Quote
Assuming there are 1000 wh corps in 1000 wh systems, how many corps does the dread blapping my bhaalgorn really affect? I'm seeing most folks saying it is fine, a few calling to nerf the moros and 3 or so corps saying it's breaking wh combat. Honestly, if it only affects or bothers 3 or so corps I'm thinking it's pretty much ok as is. I think this thread is very telling of how the majority of wh residents feel about the dread blapping 'problem'. Looks to me like it's not a problem for the vast majority of corporations/alliances in wh space.
Two Step - thanks for bringing up the issue - I'm sure as a CSM rep of all the wh folks you'll side with the majority and not just the ones in 3 of the larger wh corps (one of which is yours). What say you? 1 for all or 1 for 3?
Lost |
Winthorp
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
44
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 05:47:00 -
[66] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote: Two Step - thanks for bringing up the issue - I'm sure as a CSM rep of all the wh folks you'll side with the majority and not just the ones in 3 of the larger wh corps (one of which is yours). What say you? 1 for all or 1 for 3?
LOL i read this and shuddered since historically this has not been the case with Two Step at all. Since he has already brought this up with CCP as it being an issue but yet has never blogged about this or yet asked for a wider view from the WH community than those in his circle that he has said "has had concerns" then i am doubftull this will be any different then the last threadnaught where he disagreed and wanted to nerf all of low end WH space.
But personally i await being surprised. |
Prince Mammon
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 06:57:00 -
[67] - Quote
Two step wrote:Sorry, I got a little busy, and didn't get back to this thread until now. I do think a large part of the problem is the tracking on the Moros, and perhaps with that fixed blapping wouldn't be as big of an issue.
As for the "bring ECM" argument, you are missing the point. So now I need to bring both ECM ships as well as more DPS ships to counter Lokis + dreads. As was pointed out, miss a jam or two and you are screwed.
Two face, why oh why did you turn on us?
If you can't kill a pve dread + loki, you don't deserve to be in C5-C6's anyway.
CCP Gargant: "a total blanket no-tolerance policy was enacted on accusing the ISD of misbehaving"
Who else said there people couldn't be accused of misbehaving?
Nothing to see here, move along. |
Nero Pantera
Double-Down
Transmission Lost
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 09:31:00 -
[68] - Quote
So let me get this straight...you want all dreads to be the same...yes the moros has uber tracking and higher deeps, but that's blasters.....revs can tank better infact moros tank the worse....if you want an even fight, fight in the static...its assumed that someone home should be well defended with the dread better designed to hit small ships.
Nerfing the moros just like they will nerf t3's is just lame.
I think torps and cruise should hit battleships much easier but that's my opintion. |
Dino Boff
Lead Farmers
Kill It With Fire
23
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 11:42:00 -
[69] - Quote
Can We see the killmails for those Dreads killing fleet of T3? |
corbexx
Aperture Harmonics
K162
67
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 12:43:00 -
[70] - Quote
I know alot have said about just bringing ecm but you have to remember alot of people already bring remote eccm to help stop there logi getting jammed its very easy to switch that to your lokis, tengus jam strengh isnt great and with new skills its now harder still. Falcons are def a option but they are squishy as hell and would have to stay well out the way, probably 70km off the fight and at that range dreads will hit them without to much of a issue. People also seem to be under the impression its only lokis who have webs but often you will have webs and painters on other support (not as effective i agree) its hard to totally mitigate an entire fleet of webs
yep neuts is a idea although with people running guards its fairly easy to counter (or just having 1 energy guardain will keep loads of lokis capped up) most still run with archons with will also give cap. Also for the love of god people suggesting just bring lots of bhaals as a counter to blapping dreads GTFO. your looking at 10 odd bhaals to instant cap a dread and thats if its in range if its not you can kiss yoru arse good by to them. neut legions is more sensible but as hathrul (i think) has said you need 8 or 10 of them to cap out dreads in a short amount of time. yes i say short amount of time cos longer goes the more chance they have of getting lucky hits and instant popping stuff.
i've been on both sides i've instant popped tengus at 70km in my rev and i've also had guardains get instant popped by hostiles (once dreads are spread out its very hard to transveral up against them all)
i personally dont think its as much a dread blapping issue as it is moros is totally op, when the drones got removed from them moros just got insane this was made even worse by the fact t2 seige came out about the same time giving what was already a nice dps increase a further 20% dps increase on top and a 3rd lock spot (which with the lock time of dreads this really really helps in both pvp and pve) the fact the moros also has amazing tracking for a dread and that most wh fights are brawlling at 0 plays to the moros strengh with close range blasters as apposed to sniping fights at 70km.
also normally when the big fights happen it gets to the point were one side realises the dreads are winning and disengage before they take more losses.
exhale jumped us in a site and it was going ok for them up until we brought in extra webbers at range and popped drugs on the dreads at that point they took a few more losses and sensibly disengaged. they also had a great fight with norcorp on a wh and again stuff was going ok till a couple of there ecm tengus got jammed or killed then they couldnt stop all the webs and painters and noho's dreads started blapping. this fight more than any highlights that ecm while it can mitigate dreads dps isnt 100% effective you miss a couple jams get jammed yourself or die and its game over.
again i think just a slight tweak to moros tracking and most stuff should be sorted |
Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
112
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 13:38:00 -
[71] - Quote
Dreads can't hit subcaps for toffee unless they're being webbed/painted by support, or the people fighting them are dumb enough to sit stationary or even "Im 50km away so Ill hit orbit at 2500m, wait a minute why am i flying directly towards the Dredd at 0 transversal" herpaderp.
Neutralise the support and you'll neutralise the Dread too, don't really see how this is much different to dealing with regular logistics chains.
edit: Corbexx makes some good points there |
Omen Nihilo
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
112
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 14:32:00 -
[72] - Quote
I don't understand these ECM comments... I don't know how else to put it:
ECM is not a reliable counter. It's chance-based. It's extremely easy to bypass.
Durzel wrote:
Neutralise the support and you'll neutralise the Dread too
It's not as if you can neutralize the support instantly. And in the time it takes to do so, you'll be blapped.  |
Dino Boff
Lead Farmers
Kill It With Fire
23
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 14:49:00 -
[73] - Quote
We never have been worried able losing T3 when engaging blob of capital. The only concern is getting BS like Bhaalgorn alpha'ed and the amount of capacitor to neut to be able to kill them.
When Dreads can hit T3, it's never overwhelming, nothing that our logi could not rep.
It might just been luck, but I don't remember any battle repport showing a T3 fleet getting whelped to dreads either. |
corbexx
Aperture Harmonics
K162
68
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 15:24:00 -
[74] - Quote
If your jumping farmers in a site with just 1 or 2 lokis for web support to kill sleepers then yeah i totally agree its easy to jam or nuet the lokis out and then there dreads are a none issue.
I attually went and found the kill mail for the noho exhale fight
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=15014651
keep in mind this is noho home system so they have the blappy dreads and while i dont know there fits for stuff if we assume the fleet is built around helping blappy dreads. with a prop mod and point then webs and painters in spare mids.
we have:-
5 lokis probably running 2 webs each
6 legions so assume 6 webs 6 painters
6 prots so assume 3 webs 3 painters
7 dreads which could have had 1 painter (shinobi's didnt but i'm going worst case and i know alot of people do fit painters to dreads) so 6 painters
in total we have 24 ships 19 webs 15 painters (6 of which cannot be jammed) even if you manage to jam all teh lokis you still have 9 webs and 15 painters. (noho had a few extra ships i havent included so potentially i could have been more)
in big fleet fights its much harder to jam/neut/damp everything some of that stuff will be able to web and paint and when its does its blappy time
I know that most the subs were lost to other sub caps but its more to use there fleet size to show just how many webs painters there could be and how its not just a case of jam lokis.
The fight between us and exhale
http://dontshootx.com/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13707
potential web painter count
7 lokis 14 webs
2 legions 2 webs 2 painters
4 rapiers 12 webs 12 painters
6 dreads (ok garrisoons didnt have a painter on) 5 painters
In this case its in a sleeper site so could me alot of random sleeper webs on top of this, while its random its still something to keep in mind.
total potential 19 ships 28 webs 19 painters.
The way more interesting point is in nearly all the t3 lost the moros is the one doing the blapping even though there is 4 times as many revs on field, assuming all are equal skilled, this to me highlights the biggest issue, even with stuff webbed painted revs cant hit while moros can. also in this fight most teh t3 did get whelped by dreads it was only that exhale disenaged that there wasnt more blapped.
yeah i will say these might be extreme cases and chances are not all t3 were fitted for webs paints, but keep in mind in the aharm exhale fight that only makes it worse if less had webs and paints.
I hope this helps
TLDR Moros tracking is godly in wh space. |
AdoudelA
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 16:03:00 -
[75] - Quote
Why everyone discard the sensor dampeners?
After the recent buff an arazu with 3 sensor dampener at (45+90) km range can reduce the lokis targeting range to 8-9 km
with 4 of them its 7-8 km. Isn't it enough to make them ineffective? |
corbexx
Aperture Harmonics
K162
68
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 16:24:00 -
[76] - Quote
AdoudelA wrote:Why everyone discard the sensor dampeners?
After the recent buff an arazu with 3 sensor dampener at (45+90) km range can reduce the lokis targeting range to 8-9 km
with 4 of them its 7-8 km. Isn't it enough to make them ineffective?
it can be but alot of the fights will take place on the wh meaning they are still probably in range to web and paint and if the arazu is 60 to 80 km off the fight (which it needs to be to stay out the brawl) then its easy to hit with dreads (just like falcons)
although plus 1 from me for thinking none t3 |
Mia Restolo
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
87
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 18:10:00 -
[77] - Quote
Corbexx and others make some good points and made the problem clearer.
I was looking at the problem from the perspective of smaller 15-25 pilot engagements where support from ewar would be more effective. Once the number of pilots on the field starts pushing towards 50 it looks like there's a Moros blapping issue, not a dread blapping issue. If it makes it tougher for the bigger WH entities to invade each other and have more good big fights then I can see the problem.  |
Castor Troyy
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD
Exhale.
4
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 18:56:00 -
[78] - Quote
It shouldn't be easy to invade and take control of someones home system. It takes commitment and planning. Dreads should be able to hit anything they already can imo....if there is a t3 that is webbed/painted to 10m/s the dread should knock the **** out of it. That is the point of webs/paints. Just because you dont have enough in numbers or ecm or neuts to deal with it is no ones problem but your own
Why are we trying to make it easier to go into peoples systems and throw our weight around? It shouldnt be easy...that is the point of the defense systems we have in place.
It makes people question..how bad they really want it...this is lazy to make it easier.
You either seed and roll and get balls deep in her...or you GTFO.
EDIT: About the moros issue...if your QQing b/c of the moros tracking/dps...then get ur ass in a moros |
Rek Seven
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD
Exhale.
589
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 19:06:00 -
[79] - Quote
Dreadnoughts are not a wormhole exclusive ship...
Why i play EVE:-á20% for gameplay experience, 30% for the social aspect and 50% because of CCPGÇÖs empty promises.-á |
Omen Nihilo
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
113
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 19:53:00 -
[80] - Quote
Castor Troyy wrote:
it also has the worst tank of all the dreads...
Umm... say hello to my shield moros. That's without links/boosters/overheat. With those things it gets closer to 40k dps tank.
Of course no one's arguing that tank should be nerfed. Just lower moros tracking and dps a bit, put it closer to rev levels.
Also, no one's arguing that home invasion should be easier.  |
NEONOVUS
Saablast Followers
302
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 20:08:00 -
[81] - Quote
This sounds a lot like trying to say high altitude bombing violates the rules of wars because I have to use SAMs.
What should be done is remove immunity to ewar on caps outside siege, and inside seige leave them with like 3 targets and scan res 1.
Now you have an effective plan that makes the ships more tactical.
But really this seems to be that clever (smart and proper) usage of game mechanics should be punished because the Zulus are being massacred by the Maxim.
Ooh lock breaker bombs, make them bypass capital ewar immunity.
Now you give reason to an ammo
Or void bombs, arent they good at neuting, if not buff them.
Then you dont need to nerf you have great counters to caps. |
Omen Nihilo
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
115
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 20:25:00 -
[82] - Quote
Your analogy doesn't really make sense. The people complaining in this thread aren't complaining just because the tactic is used against us. We use/abuse dread blapping as often as we get the chance tbh. It's just that we've realized how much of a fight hindrance it's become: fights are harder to getGÇöand even when you do get them they're more like ganks for whoever has the dreads. This thread is about making w-space pvp less stale and more frequent.
TL;DR: the complainers aren't the victims.  We just want more fights.
Your other ideas about counters to cap ships could be worth considering, however. |
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
557
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 21:52:00 -
[83] - Quote
Change Moros bonuses to 5% damage per level and 10% less cap use on hybrids per level?
Because if the Revelation has to waste a bonus on bullshit cap use, then why not give it to the other dreads as well? (LOL, 10% less cap for projectiles/launchers for Nag/Phoenix!) |
Castor Troyy
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD
Exhale.
5
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 22:03:00 -
[84] - Quote
Omen Nihilo wrote:Castor Troyy wrote:
it also has the worst tank of all the dreads...
Umm... say hello to my shield moros. That's without links/boosters/overheat. With those things it gets closer to 40k dps tank. Of course no one's arguing that tank should be nerfed. Tank has nothing to do with it... Just lower moros tracking and dps a bit, put it closer to rev levels. Also, no one's arguing that home invasion should be easier.
good to know you can tank 40k dps for 3 minutes, does it go invulnerable or something? no..thats when it stops shooting and then goes pop
get in a moros if you want the moros capability...it shouldnt be nerfed b/c someone else has a rev. the rev shines with its tank, and ability to reach out and touch targets at range. Its not a cap hungry ship like the moros is. it makes no sense to nerf a ship so its just like all the others.... each ship should have its strength...moros has blasters its strength is tracking/dps which also means a big cap consumption.
get in a moros if you think you are at such a disadvantage and then pew with it...you will see how vulnerable they are. They can die too, or be hindered if you play them right |
Winthorp
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
45
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 22:16:00 -
[85] - Quote
Omen Nihilo wrote:I don't understand these ECM comments... I don't know how else to put it: ECM is not a reliable counter. It's chance-based. It's extremely easy to bypass.Durzel wrote:
Neutralise the support and you'll neutralise the Dread too
It's not as if you can neutralize the support instantly. And in the time it takes to do so, you'll be blapped.
Why do you need to have a counter that is 100% effective, all fights are chance based and can flip either side based on many factors, yet you make out like ECM never helps. |
Castor Troyy
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD
Exhale.
5
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 22:23:00 -
[86] - Quote
corbexx wrote:If your jumping farmers in a site with just 1 or 2 lokis for web support to kill sleepers then yeah i totally agree its easy to jam or nuet the lokis out and then there dreads are a none issue. I attually went and found the kill mail for the noho exhale fight http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=15014651keep in mind this is noho home system so they have the blappy dreads and while i dont know there fits for stuff if we assume the fleet is built around helping blappy dreads. with a prop mod and point then webs and painters in spare mids. we have:- 5 lokis probably running 2 webs each 6 legions so assume 6 webs 6 painters 6 prots so assume 3 webs 3 painters 7 dreads which could have had 1 painter (shinobi's didnt but i'm going worst case and i know alot of people do fit painters to dreads) so 6 painters in total we have 24 ships 19 webs 15 painters (6 of which cannot be jammed) even if you manage to jam all teh lokis you still have 9 webs and 15 painters. (noho had a few extra ships i havent included so potentially i could have been more) in big fleet fights its much harder to jam/neut/damp everything some of that stuff will be able to web and paint and when its does its blappy time I know that most the subs were lost to other sub caps but its more to use there fleet size to show just how many webs painters there could be and how its not just a case of jam lokis.
also...check that km against the sub cap fleet, all those moroses [with their insane tracking and dps] there and there was a rev on more kms the only kill where any dread did notable damage was on the damnation the t3s suffered 95%+ of their damage from the other t3s tier 3bc etc... and there were 5 moros present at the end of that fight.
Edit: whats the plural of moros? moroses? morai? lol..help me out here |
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
557
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 22:29:00 -
[87] - Quote
Castor Troyy wrote:Whats the plural of moros? moroses? morai? lol..help me out here
Moroses is correct if you're speaking English, and don't stop half way through your sentence to change to Latin for a single word. |
Omen Nihilo
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
119
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 22:49:00 -
[88] - Quote
Where to begin.....
Castor Troyy wrote:
good to know you can tank 40k dps for 3 minutes, does it go invulnerable or something after that? no..thats when it stops shooting and then goes pop
That's called burst tank. It can also tank 25k dps for 5 min until it cycles out of siege and receives reps... 
Show me your rev that tanks way better than that.
Castor Troyy wrote:
the rev Its not a cap hungry ship like the moros is.
Haha... no.
Castor Troyy wrote:
get in a moros if you think you are at such a disadvantage
You should go back a reread this:
Omen Nihilo wrote:The people complaining in this thread aren't complaining just because the tactic is used against us. We use/abuse dread blapping as often as we get the chance tbh. It's just that we've realized how much of a fight hindrance it's become: fights are harder to getGÇöand even when you do get them they're more like ganks for whoever has the dreads. This thread is about making w-space pvp less stale and more frequent. TL;DR: the complainers aren't the victims. We just want more fights. |
Kalel Nimrott
EG CORP
Talocan United
175
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 23:54:00 -
[89] - Quote
The problems are not the dreads blaping stuff. The problem comes with the nature of WHs. If you want to change something, then start there. Touching something that works is not the solution.
But the idea of a WH stabilizer is not appealing to anyone. |
corbexx
Aperture Harmonics
K162
69
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 23:59:00 -
[90] - Quote
Castor Troyy wrote:corbexx wrote:If your jumping farmers in a site with just 1 or 2 lokis for web support to kill sleepers then yeah i totally agree its easy to jam or nuet the lokis out and then there dreads are a none issue. I attually went and found the kill mail for the noho exhale fight http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=15014651keep in mind this is noho home system so they have the blappy dreads and while i dont know there fits for stuff if we assume the fleet is built around helping blappy dreads. with a prop mod and point then webs and painters in spare mids. we have:- 5 lokis probably running 2 webs each 6 legions so assume 6 webs 6 painters 6 prots so assume 3 webs 3 painters 7 dreads which could have had 1 painter (shinobi's didnt but i'm going worst case and i know alot of people do fit painters to dreads) so 6 painters in total we have 24 ships 19 webs 15 painters (6 of which cannot be jammed) even if you manage to jam all teh lokis you still have 9 webs and 15 painters. (noho had a few extra ships i havent included so potentially i could have been more) in big fleet fights its much harder to jam/neut/damp everything some of that stuff will be able to web and paint and when its does its blappy time I know that most the subs were lost to other sub caps but its more to use there fleet size to show just how many webs painters there could be and how its not just a case of jam lokis. also...check that km against the sub cap fleet, all those moroses [with their insane tracking and dps] there and there was a rev on more kms the only kill where any dread did notable damage was on the damnation the t3s suffered 95%+ of their damage from the other t3s tier 3bc etc... and there were 5 moros present at the end of that fight. Edit: whats the plural of moros? moroses? morai? lol..help me out here
read the last bit you quoted
Quote:
I know that most the subs were lost to other sub caps but its more to use there fleet size to show just how many webs painters there could be and how its not just a case of jam lokis.
most of them dreads turned up at the very end of the fight, that example was more to show just how much of the fleet could have ewar on it to be jammed out the send fight aharm v exhale is the one where teh caps were on the field the whole fight |
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