because you have 3 caps max, and they normally have 10+. So unless you plan your visit many weeks ahead - well lets say things can get ugly fast.

My issue with dread blapping is that there isn't a counter to it other than "bring more stuff". I am fine with dreads killing caps and battleships, but if I show up in small sig cruisers, dreads shouldn't be dominant.

FYI, this isn't something that I just came up with out of thin air, this has been a frequent complaint I have heard from many different corps and alliances. What makes EVE PVP great is that you should always be able to counter a specific fleet setup without just bringing 2x the numbers. That isn't the case with dreads + webs/painters.

The way i personally see it dreads should be able to hit bs targets exactly the same they do now. They should not be able to hit cruisers or even frigates..

I'm not sure why someone willing to field so many billions in ISK on the field and having the dedicated pilots to do so shouldn't be able to hold a very strong defensive advantage in their own home system. People kind of care about their home.

Dread blaping is a serious issue for groups who are going proactive. The way i personally see it dreads should be able to hit bs targets exactly the same they do now. They should not be able to hit cruisers or even frigates.

Dread shoud be feared weapon against capitals or battleships.

Dread blaping is a serious issue for groups who are going proactive. The way i personally see it dreads should be able to hit bs targets exactly the same they do now. They should not be able to hit cruisers or even frigates.

Dread shoud be feared weapon against capitals or battleships.

"Going proactive" Can you define that? I'm not familiar with that terminology.

"Going proactive" Can you define that? I'm not familiar with that terminology.

It means when they go raoming with their T3 fleet and encounter a subcab fleet with a Moros, they don't want to have to send some home to reship.

Also, Why should dreads not be able to hit other ships when they are appropriately covered by TP's and Webs? Don't those modules exist solely to allow guns to hit vessels for higher damage?

I think the question that you are looking for is "why bring anything else other than TP's and webs (plus moros)?" Also, if I recall, even down to T3 hulls, if they hit mwd and aren't at high transversal, they get pwned without being webbed/tp'ed. It's been a while since i goofed around on sisi with it... in the end, the take away is train the moros or don't bother.

Say aren't you an icky nag pilot? ;p

Say aren't you an icky nag pilot? ;p

Tower of Win!

Also, why wouldn't you keep transversal on a dread? :P

and once you're under the dread's guns, they can't hit you anyway.

The way i personally see it dreads should be able to hit bs targets exactly the same they do now. They should not be able to hit cruisers or even frigates.

Maybe the key is to not allow caps in wh space at all. Problem solved!

To me it is more of a dread balancing issue than anything else. Why would one dread do 50% more dps than the next best dread and still be able to track better? Why is one dread completely worthless and the nag just marginally better?

@Winthorp, do I really need to explain to you why I shouldn't be forced to bring ecm?

Anyways, I'm tired and rambling...

If you're looking for a completely proactive fleet, you better have 20+ guys in every flavor of T3, ready to Web, TP, Scram, Neut and Jam and do absolutely whatever, whenever, to anyone, anytime, in wormhole space.

and once you're under the dread's guns, they can't hit you anyway.

There is a dread, there is a loki with webs and targetpainters, and then everything else just dies.

That would be fine, however through the nature of wormholes it's rather had to fight at the other guys place, because you have 3 caps max, and they normally have 10+. So unless you plan your visit many weeks ahead - well lets say things can get ugly fast.

Honestly, CCP should focus on more pressing concerns, like POSs.

Dread blaping is a serious issue for groups who are going proactive. The way i personally see it dreads should be able to hit bs targets exactly the same they do now. They should not be able to hit cruisers or even frigates.

Dread shoud be feared weapon against capitals or battleships.

FYI, this isn't something that I just came up with out of thin air, this has been a frequent complaint I have heard from many different corps and alliances. What makes EVE PVP great is that you should always be able to counter a specific fleet setup without just bringing 2x the numbers. That isn't the case with dreads + webs/painters.

I built my CSM run on helping wormhole space, now I'm just going to try and get it nerfed, HAHA suckers

as for "if you cant figure out how to kill a webber with twice the numbers youre a terrible fc", fine, do tell. how do you break through the remote rep on a triage archon?

Umm... you use E-war to negate the webbers? (damps, ecm)

If you think the only option you have is MOAR DEEPS you ARE a terrible FC because in your rock vs paper fight you forgot about scissors.

If you can't get the right fleet composition, you don't have the gang to take them on and deserve to die if you try.

if the post above had loki's on the dreadnaught side, id say the dreads would have taken it assuming there was something to keep the loki alive.

If you can't figure out a way to kill a group of dreads with web/TP support WITHOUT 2X the numbers, you're an awful fleet commander.

as for "if you cant figure out how to kill a webber with twice the numbers youre a terrible fc", fine, do tell. how do you break through the remote rep on a triage archon? you cant bring bhaals, because they die to dreads, and you need about 10 neuting legions to cap out a good archon pilot. And how many wh alliances can field a fleet with 10 neuting legions, and then enough of everything else to still fight?

Umm... you use E-war to negate the webbers? (damps, ecm)

old style fleet with some bhaalgorns to neut the dreads and they die. the problem comes when there are webbers on the field. where you can evade or semi-tank the old dreadnaughts, with the insane damage a moros puts out battleships are just a no go unless in immense numbers to nearly alpa capacitor on dreads.

You hit the nail on the head.

A tracking Moros with strong Drop tracks twice as well as an arty Maelstrom. That wouldn't be such a problem if it didn't do upwards of 15k dps.

Okay so not too far off the Moros. Since neither dread is effective without support (i.e. Web loki) is the tracking that big of an issue?

Let's say ccp nerf the Moros' tracking, wouldn't support fleets just need to bring more webs and/or target painters?

where would these nerfs end? When dreads can't target sub BS hulls anymore or when all dreads are exactly the same and we're all flying vanilla ships?

Sorry, I got a little busy, and didn't get back to this thread until now. I do think a large part of the problem is the tracking on the Moros, and perhaps with that fixed blapping wouldn't be as big of an issue.

As for the "bring ECM" argument, you are missing the point. So now I need to bring both ECM ships as well as more DPS ships to counter Lokis + dreads. As was pointed out, miss a jam or two and you are screwed.

But if the other fleet has thought about their composition enough to bring DPS and utility webbing ships why should they now be penalized because you don't want to?

But if the other fleet has thought about their composition enough to bring DPS and utility webbing ships why should they now be penalized because you don't want to?

Sorry, I got a little busy, and didn't get back to this thread until now. I do think a large part of the problem is the tracking on the Moros, and perhaps with that fixed blapping wouldn't be as big of an issue.

As for the "bring ECM" argument, you are missing the point. So now I need to bring both ECM ships as well as more DPS ships to counter Lokis + dreads. As was pointed out, miss a jam or two and you are screwed.

Two Step - thanks for bringing up the issue - I'm sure as a CSM rep of all the wh folks you'll side with the majority and not just the ones in 3 of the larger wh corps (one of which is yours). What say you? 1 for all or 1 for 3?

Sorry, I got a little busy, and didn't get back to this thread until now. I do think a large part of the problem is the tracking on the Moros, and perhaps with that fixed blapping wouldn't be as big of an issue.

As for the "bring ECM" argument, you are missing the point. So now I need to bring both ECM ships as well as more DPS ships to counter Lokis + dreads. As was pointed out, miss a jam or two and you are screwed.

Neutralise the support and you'll neutralise the Dread too

Why everyone discard the sensor dampeners?
After the recent buff an arazu with 3 sensor dampener at (45+90) km range can reduce the lokis targeting range to 8-9 km
with 4 of them its 7-8 km. Isn't it enough to make them ineffective?

it also has the worst tank of all the dreads...

Umm... say hello to my shield moros. That's without links/boosters/overheat. With those things it gets closer to 40k dps tank. Of course no one's arguing that tank should be nerfed. Tank has nothing to do with it...

Just lower moros tracking and dps a bit, put it closer to rev levels.

Also, no one's arguing that home invasion should be easier.

I don't understand these ECM comments... I don't know how else to put it:

ECM is not a reliable counter. It's chance-based. It's extremely easy to bypass.


It's not as if you can neutralize the support instantly. And in the time it takes to do so, you'll be blapped.

If your jumping farmers in a site with just 1 or 2 lokis for web support to kill sleepers then yeah i totally agree its easy to jam or nuet the lokis out and then there dreads are a none issue.

I attually went and found the kill mail for the noho exhale fight

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=15014651

keep in mind this is noho home system so they have the blappy dreads and while i dont know there fits for stuff if we assume the fleet is built around helping blappy dreads. with a prop mod and point then webs and painters in spare mids.

we have:-

5 lokis probably running 2 webs each
6 legions so assume 6 webs 6 painters
6 prots so assume 3 webs 3 painters
7 dreads which could have had 1 painter (shinobi's didnt but i'm going worst case and i know alot of people do fit painters to dreads) so 6 painters

in total we have 24 ships 19 webs 15 painters (6 of which cannot be jammed) even if you manage to jam all teh lokis you still have 9 webs and 15 painters. (noho had a few extra ships i havent included so potentially i could have been more)

in big fleet fights its much harder to jam/neut/damp everything some of that stuff will be able to web and paint and when its does its blappy time

I know that most the subs were lost to other sub caps but its more to use there fleet size to show just how many webs painters there could be and how its not just a case of jam lokis.

Whats the plural of moros? moroses? morai? lol..help me out here

good to know you can tank 40k dps for 3 minutes, does it go invulnerable or something after that? no..thats when it stops shooting and then goes pop

the rev Its not a cap hungry ship like the moros is.

get in a moros if you think you are at such a disadvantage

The people complaining in this thread aren't complaining just because the tactic is used against us. We use/abuse dread blapping as often as we get the chance tbh. It's just that we've realized how much of a fight hindrance it's become: fights are harder to getGÇöand even when you do get them they're more like ganks for whoever has the dreads. This thread is about making w-space pvp less stale and more frequent.

TL;DR: the complainers aren't the victims. We just want more fights.

also...check that km against the sub cap fleet, all those moroses [with their insane tracking and dps] there and there was a rev on more kms the only kill where any dread did notable damage was on the damnation the t3s suffered 95%+ of their damage from the other t3s tier 3bc etc... and there were 5 moros present at the end of that fight.

Edit: whats the plural of moros? moroses? morai? lol..help me out here

I know that most the subs were lost to other sub caps but its more to use there fleet size to show just how many webs painters there could be and how its not just a case of jam lokis.

1. It's 15k DPS vs 11k DPS if you fit them correctly (armor version)
2. The Rev and Moros are different ships, shouldn't it stand to reason one is better at one thing that the other?
3. Why haven't we nerfed the archon seeing as that carrier is better than the others in WH space.. cry some more?
4. I think if your fleet comp cant counter 10 bill in ships that were just dropped on to the field in the shape or 2 moros you deserve to die, or retreat.
5. Reship to a T3 comp that can manage (with some ECM added, if someone misses a jam, get better jamming pilots)
6. Dafug is this thread, delete it now please :P

This complaint is a side effect of how wormhole space has evolved. It will continue to evolve to counter these things. Just because team 1 like their fleet comp and wants to be able to stick with said fleet comp, doesn't mean that team 2 has to get nerfed based on what team 1 says. Team 1 have to come up with a counter strategy to beat team 2.

1. It's 15k DPS vs 11k DPS if you fit them correctly (armor version)
2. The Rev and Moros are different ships, shouldn't it stand to reason one is better at one thing that the other?
3. Why haven't we nerfed the archon seeing as that carrier is better than the others in WH space.. cry some more?

I fully expect that once Fozzy gets to the capital ships, there is going to be much wailing and gnashing of teeth as both the Archon and Moros get bought back down to where they should be. I also see large buffs to the Nag/Phoenix, with the phoenix probably changing to a hybrid ship, or getting VERY large bonuses to sig res/explosion velocity. The Nid/Thanny will most likely be buffed, as well as a small buff to fitting for the Chimera.

15k is almost 50% better than 11k. The tracking is also much better on a Moros. Different is fine, 50% better is not. Also, what is the Rev better than the Moros at? Not using ammo? I would say that the Rev is about where Dreads should be, the Moros is too good, and the Phoenix and Nag are two slightly different flavours of useless.

I fully expect that once Fozzy gets to the capital ships, there is going to be much wailing and gnashing of teeth as both the Archon and Moros get bought back down to where they should be. I also see large buffs to the Nag/Phoenix, with the phoenix probably changing to a hybrid ship, or getting VERY large bonuses to sig res/explosion velocity. The Nid/Thanny will most likely be buffed, as well as a small buff to fitting for the Chimera.

But that isn't until late this year at the earliest. until then, the Moros is overpowered, and no amount of training for it will change that.

15k is almost 50% better than 11k. The tracking is also much better on a Moros. Different is fine, 50% better is not.

My issue with dread blapping is that there isn't a counter to it other than "bring more stuff".

I am fine with dreads killing caps and battleships, but if I show up in small sig cruisers, dreads shouldn't be dominant.

FYI, this isn't something that I just came up with out of thin air, this has been a frequent complaint I have heard from many different corps and alliances. What makes EVE PVP great is that you should always be able to counter a specific fleet setup without just bringing 2x the numbers. That isn't the case with dreads + webs/painters.

This complaint is a side effect of how wormhole space has evolved. It will continue to evolve to counter these things. Just because team 1 like their fleet comp and wants to be able to stick with said fleet comp, doesn't mean that team 2 has to get nerfed based on what team 1 says. Team 1 have to come up with a counter strategy to beat team 2.

Bottom line is that the moros IS way out of line with the other dreads and that all turret dreads hit sub BSs way too well for what they are. You can argue it however you like but it's a fact that anyone who has ever shot at subs in a dread knows.

This is not a wormhole issue.

Two shield-tanked Curses can neut as much as one Bhaalgorn at 37 km range with smaller sig and higher transversal.

One Arazu can dampen two and a half buffertanked webbing Lokis with a full rack of webs and painters down to 12 km targeting range even without ewar fleet boost. With mindlinked Eos booster, two damps reduce that Loki to 7.4 km targeting range. If the Loki has counter-modules fitted, it has reduced number of webbers and painters and/or a lot less tank and still won't be able to target at more than 15-20 km range.

(edit: the subsystem that increases targeting range is in direct competition with the subsystem for web range, so it's impossible to make a Loki resistant to dampening except by directly reducing its ability to web and paint by fitting sensor boosters in the mids.)

Did anyone even try to use anything else than the same T3 blob every time?

Two shield-tanked Curses can neut as much as one Bhaalgorn at 37 km range with smaller sig and higher transversal.

One Arazu can dampen two and a half buffertanked webbing Lokis with a full rack of webs and painters down to 12 km targeting range even without ewar fleet boost. With mindlinked Eos booster, two damps reduce that Loki to 7.4 km targeting range. If the Loki has counter-modules fitted, it has reduced number of webbers and painters and/or a lot less tank and still won't be able to target at more than 15-20 km range.

(edit: the subsystem that increases targeting range is in direct competition with the subsystem for web range, so it's impossible to make a Loki resistant to dampening except by directly reducing its ability to web and paint by fitting sensor boosters in the mids.)

Did anyone even try to use anything else than the same T3 blob every time?

This is still going around?

Really?

Plenty of counters have been listed in this thread, just because it doesn't result in you instantly killing the dread doesn't mean it's not effective.

Your analogy isn't really applicable. The people complaining in this thread aren't complaining just because the tactic is used against us. We use/abuse dread blapping as often as we get the chance tbh. It's just that we've realized how much of a fight hindrance it's become: fights are harder to getGÇöand even when you do get them they're more like ganks for whoever has the dreads. This thread is about making w-space pvp less stale and more frequent.

TL;DR: the complainers aren't the victims. We just want more fights.

Dreadnoughts are not a wormhole exclusive ship...

See and when they are prepared to look at them all across the board i think that's ok, but to just knee jerk nerf a dread because a CSM rep gets to directly ask CCP for it without any consultation of the "REST" of the community that uses it is where i hold grave concerns.

ya bro you go bring your shield curses up against a t3/dread fleet
/faceplam

My issue with dread blapping is that there isn't a counter to it other than "bring more stuff". I am fine with dreads killing caps and battleships, but if I show up in small sig cruisers, dreads shouldn't be dominant.

FYI, this isn't something that I just came up with out of thin air, this has been a frequent complaint I have heard from many different corps and alliances. What makes EVE PVP great is that you should always be able to counter a specific fleet setup without just bringing 2x the numbers. That isn't the case with dreads + webs/painters.

If you are getting webbed, bring tracking disruptors or neuts or even jams. PROBLEM ******* SOLVED.

confirming TDs stop webs and are really useful against sieged dreads...

If your jumping farmers in a site with just 1 or 2 lokis for web support to kill sleepers then yeah i totally agree its easy to jam or nuet the lokis out and then there dreads are a none issue.

I attually went and found the kill mail for the noho exhale fight

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=15014651

I think it should at least be considered to put a similar kind of flat sig size penalty on dreads that titans have.
i'd probably make their DPS scale down to anything under, say, 500 sig rather than the 2000 sig that titans have.
that way they lose nothing against other caps and you CAN still blap with them, you just need to bring TPs, not just webs.
that way you keep your home system advantage if you tailor your fleet to support your dreads, but they won't be as effective in a general T3 fleet (which realistically tends not to have any TPs) as they are now.

for reference:
BS needs 1 TP to push it over 500 sig
T3 maxes out around 450 sig with 5 TPs
Guardian maxes out around 190 sig with 5 TPs

numbers are all with RF painters and no fleet boosts/drugs.

i think this change would go a long way to making everyone happy with dread effectiveness vs. sub caps as it leaves them almost as effective as they are now but forces the blappers to actually set their fleet up accordingly.

PS: moros needs to still be brought in line with rest of dreads (or vice versa) but that's a separate issue. PVE would be unaffected by this change.

If you are getting webbed, bring tracking disruptors or neuts or even jams. PROBLEM ******* SOLVED.

shield curses while great on principle will probably die horribly to a support legions work better but your still looking at needing twice the number of legions (or curses) to do what a bhaal would do, so 6 to 10 probably.

The damps again sound in theory but with most fights being on the wh range wont be a issue, and again arazu's are very squishy

In a site they might work a bit better where stuff might be spread out more but then you they are at risk from sleepers

This times 1000. Dread blapping is plenty fun for the blapper, but not so much for the blappee. If I see large w-space alliance X on a hole with 8 dreads and 10 lokis, which 18 ships should I bring to counter that? Which 25 even?

Would 8 defending dreads, spread out, even need a lot of webbing? Any target will probably always have minimum transversal to at least one of them. Isn't the biggest problem that the attackers are always limited to 3 capitals maximum in any spontaneous encounter, while the defenders can have unlimited amounts of them?

If there was some feasible way to limit the number of caps in a hole or on a grid...

Those of us that either field dread fleets or run into them often think this is a problem. How large of a problem is open to some debate, which I am happy to have with folks. If CCP decided to solve the problem, there would also be a chance for people to discuss the potential fix.

20K is not spread out. You said you had ammo with a 60K optimal, perhaps you ought to look at things when you are 60K out.

Omen's post up above is spot on. Those of us that either field dread fleets or run into them often think this is a problem. How large of a problem is open to some debate, which I am happy to have with folks. If CCP decided to solve the problem, there would also be a chance for people to discuss the potential fix.

My issue with dread blapping is that there isn't a counter to it other than "bring more stuff". I am fine with dreads killing caps and battleships, but if I show up in small sig cruisers, dreads shouldn't be dominant.

FYI, this isn't something that I just came up with out of thin air, this has been a frequent complaint I have heard from many different corps and alliances. What makes EVE PVP great is that you should always be able to counter a specific fleet setup without just bringing 2x the numbers. That isn't the case with dreads + webs/painters.

I skimmed through the rest of these pages. You're quite alone where that's concerned. Who are these other corps and alliances that agree with you?

VoC, K162, Exhale, to name a few.

Nope that's pretty much all of them... Confirming they are all of WH space now, and once they don't like something your personal CSM rep gets to ask CCP for a stealth nerf without speaking to all other WH space folk.

i think this change would go a long way to making everyone happy with dread effectiveness vs. sub caps as it leaves them almost as effective as they are now but forces the blappers to actually set their fleet up accordingly.
.

Nope that's pretty much all of them... Confirming they are all of WH space now, and once they don't like something your personal CSM rep gets to ask CCP for a stealth nerf without speaking to all other WH space folk.

What do you guys really want to be able to do that you can't? I get that dread/moros blapping is your problem. What is fixing this going to accomplish?

dont talk back scrub we're blue to w-space its confirmed!!!!

theres lots of people agreeing for dread nerf, but those are the notable wh corps. no one cares about npc corp chars like me or other not notable corps like ssc :P

A fair question.
Basically, take this situation: AHARM collapse our static, we connect to EXHALE. both sides have similar numbers on. Great, fight time.

ok, so how do we engage? exhale are no scrubs, they know how dreads work and have many dread pilots. we are no scrubs, we know how dreads work and we have many dread pilots.
given this, with the current mechanics whichever party jumps into the other one will get obliterated by the home team's dreads and generally what happens in this situation is both sides stare at each other for a while and then the WH is collapsed by whoever gets bored first.

I have seen this situation personally and heard about it more often than I can count with many various c5/6 corps.

Note that I picked exhale at random and in no way mean to make it sound like they wont take a fight. they will.
Theyve jumped into AHARM's system several times and, like I said, did get dread blapped accordingly.
liekwise, AHARM has jumped into hostile dreads too and also go blapped.

Confirming that we are scrubs that can't hold a candle to any of the "big" wh corps, despite being the ones responsible for inventing the bhaalgrinder, regularily beating fleets with more capitals than we field, including fleets that try and counter us with blap dreads yet failing in that.

Confirming that we are scrubs that can't hold a candle to any of the "big" wh corps, despite being the ones responsible for inventing the bhaalgrinder, regularily beating fleets with more capitals than we field, including fleets that try and counter us with blap dreads yet failing in that.

My issue with dread blapping is that there isn't a counter to it other than "bring more stuff". I am fine with dreads killing caps and battleships, but if I show up in small sig cruisers, dreads shouldn't be dominant.

FYI, this isn't something that I just came up with out of thin air, this has been a frequent complaint I have heard from many different corps and alliances. What makes EVE PVP great is that you should always be able to counter a specific fleet setup without just bringing 2x the numbers. That isn't the case with dreads + webs/painters.

Basically, take this situation: AHARM collapse our static, we connect to EXHALE. both sides have similar numbers on. Great, fight time.

You've been around enough to know that all fights are not meant to be. There is a mass limit on all wh. You can't fit enough of anything through a single wh to engage an entrenched home system that has a bunch of capital ships and support. That only makes sense. You shouldn't be able to do what you want to do. You're looking to dial up a random 'good fight worthy' wh, jump in and have a LARGE/EPIC good fight that is fair equal and balanced.

You can make all dreads disappear after their first volley and there still isn't enough mass on a 3 bil wh to go into the aharm home system and get a fair fight if the system comes to life to defend itself. It's not dread blapping that is frustrating you - it's the wh mass restriction combined with some systems that are well defended. Don't blame dreads for a well defended home system and sensible piloting. It's the mass limits.

We've all chosen to live in the part of eve that has those mass restrictions. They are a restriction. Believe me I know. I moved from a c5-c5 (3 bil mass) to a c5-c3 (1 bil mass). There are days that it just kills me. That one billion bottleneck has prevented more than one good fight 3 wh down a chain. I chose to move to that wh mostly to fly with folks I know in real life. Does it put a damper on my pvp desires? Yeah all the freakin' time. But it's a choice I made.

Your 3 billion wh connecting you to exhale (your example) will never allow you to go in and kick their patoot. They are big enough and good enough that 3 billion isn't enough to allow that to happen. You wanna go in and kick THAT patoot - you plan, sneak in some dreads, carriers, scanners and blah blah blah - we all know the deal. Not all wh home systems are day trips.

If you and yours really crave those big epic dread smashing fights - you have to go to low/null. It won't happen in wh space via a single random wh encounter. Sorry man, you can't beat math. I will caution everyone that messing w/ the mass mechanic of wh space could have some really crappy far reaching affects. Please resist the urge to come up with ways, modules, ideas.... and so on to subvert the mass mechanic in wh.

Nope that's pretty much all of them... Confirming they are all of WH space now, and once they don't like something your personal CSM rep gets to ask CCP for a stealth nerf without speaking to all other WH space folk.

The trick is to only ask for the nerf after you've gotten tired of abusing that particular mechanic. I wonder if the immunity to EWAR is the major factor in preventing effective counter play here?

My issue with dread blapping is that there isn't a counter to it other than "bring more stuff". I am fine with dreads killing caps and battleships, but if I show up in small sig cruisers, dreads shouldn't be dominant.

FYI, this isn't something that I just came up with out of thin air, this has been a frequent complaint I have heard from many different corps and alliances. What makes EVE PVP great is that you should always be able to counter a specific fleet setup without just bringing 2x the numbers. That isn't the case with dreads + webs/painters.

Maybe if you stopped "skimming" and tried reading you wouldn't have had to ask this...

VoC, K162, Exhale, to name a few. Of course there's disagreement even within these alliancesGÇöwhich is why we're having this discussion in the first place. There are people spread out among a lot of alliances who agree with Two Step that dreads (the Moros in particular) are slightly imbalanced in w-space pvp.

But I'm done posting here. I respect most of the people posting in here, even if I disagree with them. Whatever the case, I'm confident that when Fozzie gets to Dreads he'll know what to do.

This is old news and used in K-space all the time. You will find that Loki links help a ton.

Confirming you missed the point entirely.

I've seen a large number of quality arguments against nerfing dread blapping in this thread. None of the arguments in support of the change are at all persuasive. Please remember that people have a lot invested in their home wormholes. If they're willing to pay for dreads and risk them, they deserve to benefit from it. Numerous effective counters are proposed here. It's also worth noting that dreads are regarded as the least entertaing and useful class of ships in the game. Members of my alliance doesn't even bother purchasing their own - the alliance loans them to us so we don't have to invest in a boring ship. One of the few worthwhile things about dreads is their ability to blap. Please retain this ability.

WH dreads =/= nullsec dreads

Nope that's pretty much all of them... Confirming they are all of WH space now, and once they don't like something your personal CSM rep gets to ask CCP for a stealth nerf without speaking to all other WH space folk.

VoC, K162, Exhale, to name a few. Of course there's disagreement even within these alliancesGÇöwhich is why we're having this discussion in the first place.

Hi all!

When I was reading today the CSM minutes I came by this part:

"Nearing the end of the meeting, Two step brought up the issue of Dread blapping in wormhole space.
This sparked an informal discussion to determine if the issue was the Dreads themselves, or just a
byproduct of wormhole combat. No meaningful solution was devised in a short time, but Fozzie added
that he would keep an eye on Dread blapping in wormhole space in particular."

So my question would be: What is Dread blapping precisely and why is it something that must be looked at?

Thank for the answers in advance.

Anyway... Thank you, AdoudelA, for sharing this observation. Two Step greatly misrepresented the wspace community and might have gotten HIS way unchallenged. This threadnought is deadnought.

As a person who fields and runs into dreads, I would like to state that I don't see any problems currently. I see players adapting to their situation and using the best close range dread for close range applications.

Edit: Sometimes reading something aloud allows for better comprehension.

Also, Refused to fight? We didn't stay with our fleet to engage you in your home system, where you could bring caps and we couldn't, and our connection to our chain was closed by the now-dead moros, and we had no neuts.

(and in a later post)

We much prefer to NOT get raped in someones home hole especially after we've already won the fight, we've had it happen to us before, and much prefer it to not happen again.

You don't see any problems? Funny, that isn't what you said 10 days ago on FHC:


You then linked this BR, which is a damn good example of dread blapping, especially your own killmail

I'd also quote some of your corpmates here, but I have run out of quotes. I think it is a little disingenuous to go write an article about how dreads never blap or something when you yourself were killed recently using the same method, and fear of that happening again led you to not fight someone.

Rigth. I would like to ask you Two Step, as candidate to the CSM8

My issue with dread blapping is that there isn't a counter to it other than "bring more stuff". I am fine with dreads killing caps and battleships, but if I show up in small sig cruisers, dreads shouldn't be dominant.

FYI, this isn't something that I just came up with out of thin air, this has been a frequent complaint I have heard from many different corps and alliances. What makes EVE PVP great is that you should always be able to counter a specific fleet setup without just bringing 2x the numbers. That isn't the case with dreads + webs/painters.

I don't really think this is so much a problem with dreads in holes, more that the Moros has really good tracking. And I'm really on the fence with having cap ships in wormholes to begin with. Sleeper escalations could be tied to number of BS's on grid instead of warping caps.

I mean really there is a whole bunch of stuff that's broken in WH's, living out of a PoS's is a pain in the ass, goofy **** like not being able to assemble Strat cruisers in a hole. I could go on, but we've had this conversation before.

Dread blapping is probably the worst offender next to blueball flashcrashing nullbears setting up farming ops in WH space.

There are no farming ops in wspace. WHs run out of sites fast preventing this. Propaganda is bad mmmk?

Are you high today?

Sites doesnt despawn in SSCs hole. Appearently.

There are no farming ops in wspace, only 4 day field trips.

There are no farming ops in wspace. WHs run out of sites fast preventing this. Propaganda is bad mmmk?

Have to agree with Gunslinger. It's not about the dreads or the archons, it's about being able to counter the other fleet. Take out their support for the capitals, be it with ECM, neuts, damps or sheer dps and you'll effectively take out the dreads as well. No amount of nerfs will change this one bit, all you accomplish with those is that people might stop flying the nerfed boats entirely and move on to the next best thing.

I could do what many others have done and start linking battlereports of how an inferior number of capitals has beaten the superior one with nothing but smart tactics and the right support cast, but it'd be just as pointless as this whole argument. There's nothing wrong with dreads or the moros overall, all that needs to be done is bring the nid and the phoenix into line with the others. Moros and Rev are balanced pretty much like they should be, one being the uber dps monster and the other being the uber tank monster. Trying to force them to be in the same mold would just be silly.

That's why we evicted (temporarily) a CFC alt corp from a hole last weekend because it wasn't a farm. It wasn't 3 guys on 16 accounts setting up a farm. No sir. Nope. No blueballing there. No intentions of chain-rolling their static with dreads and farming ladars with a metric shitton of Ventures. I was totally wrong. We had lots and lots of fights all weekend. They didn't try to sneak a cyno out to call their null buddies in...Nope. No sir. Not at all. They didn't mass self-destruct ships they couldn't log out in... Nope. It was gudfites all the time.

Totally legit WH PvP corp.

That's why Exhale did the same thing to them about a month earlier. Because it wasn't a handful of nullbears with multiple accounts farming WH isk. It was gudfites. Them bears finally realized how terrible null life is and wanted to turn over a new leaf in W-space and become a corp that has a strategy other than logoffski, hot drop o'clock, or drakeblob.

Yup. Total propaganda.

So you evicted them because they wanted to fight?????
That makes no sense at all.

So you evicted them because they wanted to fight?????
That makes no sense at all.

I hope your joking... and yeah I feel its our duty as pvp wormhole residents to rid w-space of null bears and farming systems. Yes we did evict a CFC alt corp from a c6 a month or so ago. Glad to see others are doing Bob's work too.

If they are just there to bear ofc I'd like them to gtfo, think I misunderstood the post though since as I read it it seamed more like they decided to kick them after they brought a fight.

Who's idea was it to allow big PoSes in small holes again?

Or better yet, a new ship class between Battleship and Dreads. Tech 3 Battleships you can load out for PvP or PvE activities.

Tech 3 battleships would be cool. One of their propulsion systems could be for reducing the effect of their mass on wormhole transiting, so you could use more than a handful of them in a hole and hope to come home.

http://kb.hardknocksinc.net/index.php/kill_detail/5172/
http://kb.hardknocksinc.net/index.php/kill_detail/5174/

In this fight, only one t3 died to dread blapping. Everyone else got maybe 1 good hit in and we couldnt hit it again. This was with at least 6 webs and 3 TPs on each target.

However 1 moros was able to almost kill 2 revs and an archon. I agree that the moros is a little OP. However being to track small ships... not so much.

Again, just because you are bad at dread blapping doesn't mean it isn't a problem (based on the fit of your lost rev, you guys aren't fit properly - 2 tracking mods, no drop in cargo). Come back when you guys learn to do it properly.

Also... what constitutes being bad/good at dread blapping? Cause, if I am not mistaken, when you have 4 tracking computers on your moros, and the thing you are shooting is moving at 20ms with 3 target painters on it... you are doing everything right.