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AdoudelA Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2013.01.18 15:19:00 - [1] - Quote Hi all! When I was reading today the CSM minutes I came by this part: "Nearing the end of the meeting, Two step brought up the issue of Dread blapping in wormhole space. This sparked an informal discussion to determine if the issue was the Dreads themselves, or just a byproduct of wormhole combat. No meaningful solution was devised in a short time, but Fozzie added that he would keep an eye on Dread blapping in wormhole space in particular." So my question would be: What is Dread blapping precisely and why is it something that must be looked at? Thank for the answers in advance.
Rasmus Endashi State War Academy Caldari State 1	Posted - 2013.01.18 15:37:00 - [2] - Quote Those two questions are exactly what came to mind when I read the csm minutes pdf . I asked a veteran wormhole dweller about it's meaning and got the answer that it's basicly the usual way dreads are used to farm sleeper sites, web+dread = sleeper bs goes down fast. So if this is true, then I also would like to know what is the exact problem with this method and why would it should be treated as an issue and why it would be better without this possibility?
Rek Seven DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exhale. 586	Posted - 2013.01.18 15:40:00 - [3] - Quote Who knows? The community and Two step seem to has different opinions as to what is a problem and what is not. At a guess, i think he is talking about the difficulty in fighting someone in their home system, where they have an overwhelming number of dreads. Why i play EVE:-á20% for gameplay experience, 30% for the social aspect and 50% because of CCPGÇÖs empty promises.-á
Random Woman Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 10	Posted - 2013.01.18 15:42:00 - [4] - Quote There is a dread, there is a loki with webs and targetpainters, and then everything else just dies. That would be fine, however through the nature of wormholes it's rather had to fight at the other guys place, because you have 3 caps max, and they normally have 10+. So unless you plan your visit many weeks ahead - well lets say things can get ugly fast.
Abis Cann Hard Knocks Inc. 24	Posted - 2013.01.18 16:36:00 - [5] - Quote I'd like to see this explained as well. Dread blappage is as described above, but the fact that Two step sees it as a problem is disconcerting.
Qvar Dar'Zanar EVE University Ivy League 239	Posted - 2013.01.18 16:59:00 - [6] - Quote No POSes, T3s nerf, now this... Somebody wants wh dwellers to die in a fire.
Two step Aperture Harmonics K162 3061	Posted - 2013.01.18 17:55:00 - [7] - Quote My issue with dread blapping is that there isn't a counter to it other than "bring more stuff". I am fine with dreads killing caps and battleships, but if I show up in small sig cruisers, dreads shouldn't be dominant. FYI, this isn't something that I just came up with out of thin air, this has been a frequent complaint I have heard from many different corps and alliances. What makes EVE PVP great is that you should always be able to counter a specific fleet setup without just bringing 2x the numbers. That isn't the case with dreads + webs/painters. CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Rek Seven DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exhale. 586	Posted - 2013.01.18 18:20:00 - [8] - Quote Don't you have to web sub BS's for dreads to consistently get good hits? Why i play EVE:-á20% for gameplay experience, 30% for the social aspect and 50% because of CCPGÇÖs empty promises.-á
Inkarr Hashur Sine Nobilitatis R.E.P.O. 137	Posted - 2013.01.18 18:24:00 - [9] - Quote I'm not sure why someone willing to field so many billions in ISK on the field and having the dedicated pilots to do so shouldn't be able to hold a very strong defensive advantage in their own home system. People kind of care about their home.
Xtover Wormholers Anonymous Transmission Lost 80	Posted - 2013.01.18 19:12:00 - [10] - Quote Random Woman wrote: because you have 3 caps max, and they normally have 10+. So unless you plan your visit many weeks ahead - well lets say things can get ugly fast. I have to disagree and agree. You can't just come into another home (especially of an established alliance) with whole fleet, but it's possible to seed in many caps in a short time period with a proper prober and the ability to roll.

Ayeson Hard Knocks Inc. 199	Posted - 2013.01.18 19:21:00 - [11] - Quote Two step wrote: My issue with dread blapping is that there isn't a counter to it other than "bring more stuff". I am fine with dreads killing caps and battleships, but if I show up in small sig cruisers, dreads shouldn't be dominant. FYI, this isn't something that I just came up with out of thin air, this has been a frequent complaint I have heard from many different corps and alliances. What makes EVE PVP great is that you should always be able to counter a specific fleet setup without just bringing 2x the numbers. That isn't the case with dreads + webs/painters. Personally, I don't find dread's shooting stationary targets like they were designed to do a problem, in fact, I would say the game is working as intended. Why would you want to punish a dread pilot for doing what he bought a dread to do, which is shoot stationary targets, especially when said stationary target might have a pilot in it. Nobody has problems with dreads shooting at ships in null, especially when they have web support, why should dreads perform differently in wormholes? Reasonable counter: ECM Tengus to jam the lokis (not sure how the new comp skills affect weather the ECM gu is dead or not) or Neuting Legions to nuke their cap and then the rest of your fleet kills the dreads sans support. Seeing as the dreads wont be able to instalock you in a T3, you can jam/neut their loki support and once they lose their support fleet they have no chance of hitting your T3's as long as you get under their guns and keep transversal up. Just my 2c as a person who's been on both sides of the coin. Ask me about Rengas-dar, HRDKX's Most recent, groundbreaking, game-changing, wormhole-collapsing research endeavour.
Serendipity Lost Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering 0	Posted - 2013.01.18 19:27:00 - [12] - Quote WH space isn't 'easy mode'. Folks have been complaining since I first sub'd to eve. There will always be complaints. Most complaints are driven by folks that want to make what they do in eve easier and more on their terms. I agree it's impossible to take down a major wh system on one go through a wh. Good. That isn't broken, it's a necessary safegard for the wh way of life. Think it through folks. There are a lot of null entries into wh space. Nullbears don't want to have to plan and invest time and resources into sacking a c5 wh. They just want it now. Screw that! Keep it difficult. If folks in wh space want 'the life' to be easy, then please take your 'easier ideas' and leave. Really - go away. The 'it promotes the more is better/required' argument is true and has merit, but very little compared to the pandoras box you open when you move high end wh sacking toward 'easy mode'. The only way to survive will be to become large and bloated cows like Transmission Lost (still love you guys - except bane of course). You'll lose the 'mom and pop' feel to wh space and make it the realm of large organizations only. Let's think of the little guys too, since they are the greater in number. We bang on eve coders all the time for not thinking things through - let's not be a part of the problem. Two Step - I luvs ya man - no kidding. You've done a lot for eve in general and the wh community in specific. Sadly I'll say it loud - you are wrong on this one. You seem to have trouble seeing eve and wh space through the eyes of the little guy from way up in the aharm throne room. Many systems have 5 or fewer dreads and quite a few less folks than aharm does living in their wh. Changing the blapability factor and allowing wh invasions in 'quick and easy mode' will pretty much put an end to all the smaller guys scraping out a living in wh space. Again - anyone who wants wh space to be easier - please leave. (I hear they have missions in Motsu that are pretty easy) Lost
Mia Restolo Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 87	Posted - 2013.01.18 19:39:00 - [13] - Quote The first counter to stopping dread blapping is killing or at least nullifying the lokis/webbers through DPS or ewar, the second is bringing in Bhaalgorns or other neut ships, the third is more dreads or overwhelming numbers. Seems like a lot of options to me, especially effective if you do them all at once. I don't know why a fleet composition requiring multiple well coordinated pilots and a good FC should be considered a problem. If someone is going to attack a WH corp on their home turf they should be at a disadvantage without careful planning and scouting especially if its an eviction. Moving in a dozen caps could take a few hours or a few days which isn't that long but it is a pain. Ganking a fleet doing escalations is already pretty easy to do with a reasonably sized and organized gang. We're talking billions worth of fleet assets on both sides here, so if you're not scouting and planning you're doing it wrong. Throwing kitchen sink fleets at dreads only works if you get really lucky... as it should be.
chris elliot EG CORP Talocan United 101	Posted - 2013.01.18 19:43:00 - [14] - Quote I would have thought ECM tengus or falcons would have been the solution to blap dreads. If the loki can't lock anything to web it down for the dread then unless you as a subcap pilot has fart for brains the dread won't be able to hit you.
Diego Sarmoti AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 2	Posted - 2013.01.18 21:29:00 - [15] - Quote Well first, what I think people are most pi**y about is that the bhaalgorn is now near worthless in wh fights due to the morosGÇÖ ability to 2 shot them. Prior to the T2 siege dmg buff, the rev was everywhere, and wh fit rev was hitting around 8k.... now everybody is flying morii that push out 14-15k dps. This totally has changed the fleet comp of every competent wh corp. WH home defense aside, prior to the 15k dps moros everybody brought archons and the battle was generally going to be decided by who lost cap first. The average wh brawl was one cap, a bhaal or three and support. Now if you jump a fleet with a few moros 20k apart, you are going to have a hard time not losing support before logi can lock them. You just need moros, lokis for webs+tps and logi to hold the lokiGÇÖs up, why bother with proteii? Basically, dps T3GÇÖs are just for show when you have 2+moros in fleet. Also, with the proper bling and drugs, I think a moros can blat T3GÇÖs if they arenGÇÖt in close. To me it is more of a dread balancing issue than anything else. Why would one dread do 50% more dps than the next best dread and still be able to track better? Why is one dread completely worthless and the nag just marginally better? The simple solution is to train a moros and change up fleet comps, yes?
Chitsa Jason DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exhale. 254	Posted - 2013.01.18 21:36:00 - [16] - Quote Dread blaping is a serious issue for groups who are going proactive. The way i personally see it dreads should be able to hit bs targets exactly the same they do now. They should not be able to hit cruisers or even frigates. Dread shoud be feared weapon against capitals or battleships.
Jack Miton Aperture Harmonics K162 1289	Posted - 2013.01.18 22:00:00 - [17] - Quote Chitsa Jason wrote: The way i personally see it dreads should be able to hit bs targets exactly the same they do now. They should not be able to hit cruisers or even frigates.. I agree with this. dreads will hit T3s very reliably with web/tp support which makes it almost impossible to take a fight into someone's home system without whelping most of your fleet.
Paikis Vapour Holdings 549	Posted - 2013.01.18 22:18:00 - [18] - Quote Why is kill/jam/damp webbing ships such a hard thing to do? Why is this a problem? Why are you trying to find a problem for your solution?
Winthorp Future Corps Sleeper Social Club 36	Posted - 2013.01.18 22:32:00 - [19] - Quote Inkarr Hashur wrote: I'm not sure why someone willing to field so many billions in ISK on the field and having the dedicated pilots to do so shouldn't be able to hold a very strong defensive advantage in their own home system. People kind of care about their home. Well that's not really the case though is it, when someone comes into your home looking for a fight and can not field the caps you can and you bring the fight with triple the caps you may as well just blue ball them there is no point to that. You cannot sit there and mistake a fight for an invasion where your home is actually at risk. I don't think dread blapping is the issue people make it out to be, there is always an option in your fleet comp to change out for ECM boats, i think people lean to this argument because they just want remove the dread from the engagement so hole mass doesn't become the issue it is now when people are forced to bring dreads when they other side does. EDIT: Dont go nerfing the dread just so you don't have to bring your own dread or change your fleet comp.
Winthorp Future Corps Sleeper Social Club 40	Posted - 2013.01.18 22:38:00 - [20] - Quote Chitsa Jason wrote: Dread blaping is a serious issue for groups who are going proactive. The way i personally see it dreads should be able to hit bs targets exactly the same they do now. They should not be able to hit cruisers or even frigates. Dread shoud be feared weapon against capitals or battleships. And thus will make them useless in all WH engagements. I often bring my BS fleet to fight with in WH space.

Ayeson Hard Knocks Inc. 204	Posted - 2013.01.18 22:46:00 - [21] - Quote Chitsa Jason wrote: Dread blaping is a serious issue for groups who are going proactive. The way i personally see it dreads should be able to hit bs targets exactly the same they do now. They should not be able to hit cruisers or even frigates. Dread shoud be feared weapon against capitals or battleships. "Going proactive" Can you define that? I'm not familiar with that terminology. Also, Why should dreads not be able to hit other ships when they are appropriately covered by TP's and Webs? Don't those modules exist solely to allow guns to hit vessels for higher damage? Ask me about Rengas-dar, HRDKX's Most recent, groundbreaking, game-changing, wormhole-collapsing research endeavour.
Phaderift Sky Fighters Talocan United 11	Posted - 2013.01.18 22:51:00 - [22] - Quote Ayeson wrote: Chitsa Jason wrote: Dread blaping is a serious issue for groups who are going proactive. The way i personally see it dreads should be able to hit bs targets exactly the same they do now. They should not be able to hit cruisers or even frigates. Dread shoud be feared weapon against capitals or battleships. "Going proactive" Can you define that? I'm not familiar with that terminology. Going to go out on a limb and say that it supposed to be aggressive or groups who will try and provoke fights with others. Referencing that whole maximum 3 caps from the attacking side due to mass limits and the home fleet can bring 30. It becomes really hard to get a fight you stand a chance in. mass limits make attacking or provoking a Gud fite hard as once you reach mass limit the attacker can't escalate anymore, hell they can't even reship to keep the fight going or reship to change comps to adapt to what has been presented from the other side on grid. Edit. Provocative groups
Winthorp Future Corps Sleeper Social Club 40	Posted - 2013.01.18 22:51:00 - [23] - Quote Ayeson wrote: Chitsa Jason wrote: Dread blaping is a serious issue for groups who are going proactive. The way i personally see it dreads should be able to hit bs targets exactly the same they do now. They should not be able to hit cruisers or even frigates. Dread shoud be feared weapon against capitals or battleships. "Going proactive" Can you define that? I'm not familiar with that terminology. It means when they go raoming with their T3 fleet and encounter a subcab fleet with a Moros, they don't want to have to send some home to reship.
Ayeson Hard Knocks Inc. 204	Posted - 2013.01.18 22:55:00 - [24] - Quote Winthorp wrote: It means when they go raoming with their T3 fleet and encounter a subcab fleet with a Moros, they don't want to have to send some home to reship. I was hoping for chitsa to define it, using his own words, but thank you nonetheless for your response. Ask me about Rengas-dar, HRDKX's Most recent, groundbreaking, game-changing, wormhole-collapsing research endeavour.
Diego Sarmoti AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 2	Posted - 2013.01.18 23:09:00 - [25] - Quote Ayeson wrote: Also, Why should dreads not be able to hit other ships when they are appropriately covered by TP's and Webs? Don't those modules exist solely to allow guns to hit vessels for higher damage? I think the question that you are looking for is "why bring anything else other than TP's and webs (plus moros)?" Also, if I recall, even down to T3 hulls, if they hit mwd and aren't at high transversal, they get pwned without being webbed/tp'ed. It's been a while since i goofed around on sisi with it... in the end, the take away is train the moros or don't bother. Say aren't you an icky nag pilot? ;p
Ayeson Hard Knocks Inc. 205	Posted - 2013.01.18 23:40:00 - [26] - Quote Diego Sarmoti wrote: I think the question that you are looking for is "why bring anything else other than TP's and webs (plus moros)?" Also, if I recall, even down to T3 hulls, if they hit mwd and aren't at high transversal, they get pwned without being webbed/tp'ed. It's been a while since i goofed around on sisi with it... in the end, the take away is train the moros or don't bother. Say aren't you an icky nag pilot? ;p Tower of Win! Also, why wouldn't you keep transversal on a dread? :P and once you're under the dread's guns, they can't hit you anyway. Ask me about Rengas-dar, HRDKX's Most recent, groundbreaking, game-changing, wormhole-collapsing research endeavour.
MadbaM Hard Knocks Inc. 32	Posted - 2013.01.18 23:46:00 - [27] - Quote Diego Sarmoti wrote: Say aren't you an icky nag pilot? ;p Of course he is, he loves that thing more than his own family. Dread blappage is only a problem for one WH situation and that's evictions nothing else, for all other WH engagements there are plenty of steps you can take to neutralize a dreads ability to put out its full DPS. But i do agree there is a huge disparity between the moros and all the other dreads that someone may need to look at.
Diego Sarmoti AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 2	Posted - 2013.01.18 23:47:00 - [28] - Quote Ayeson wrote: Tower of Win! Also, why wouldn't you keep transversal on a dread? :P and once you're under the dread's guns, they can't hit you anyway. Well, if there are more than one dread on field and they aren't sitting on top of one another of course.
Tisisan Hard Knocks Inc. 78	Posted - 2013.01.19 02:59:00 - [29] - Quote Chitsa Jason wrote: The way i personally see it dreads should be able to hit bs targets exactly the same they do now. They should not be able to hit cruisers or even frigates. And yet, isn't that the very point of the target painter module? If CCP thinks its a good idea to have a module in game that increases sig radius, you can hardly complain when a small ship gets turned into a big ship. Edit: missed page two.... "great minds" I guess Ayeson.
Bane Nucleus The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost 302	Posted - 2013.01.19 04:08:00 - [30] - Quote I really don't see the issue. If they have web lokis, just shut them down (ewar) and you have no problems. It's not some impossible problem to solve. If TL can do it, like Ayeson said, you guys have no excuse Honestly, CCP should focus on more pressing concerns, like POSs. Alliance CEO, Diplomat, Recruiter



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