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silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
477
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 01:49:00 -
[31] - Quote
Karrl Tian wrote:Jealousy Asques wrote: How does one lone player (no matter how big a corp hes in) counter 30+ stealth bombers hot dropping on him? You might get lucky now and then but in reality a good hot dropper can always choose his fights, and unless hes targetting the same area over and over nobody is going to have time to react or set a trap capable of exacting revenge. If your hot drops ever fail its simply a matter of you choosing your targets very very poorly.
Funny you mention bombers....considering what happens when you bait a hotdrop then launch multiple bombs at the cyno. Fireworks!
 Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.
Malcanis for CSM8 |

FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
2558
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 02:28:00 -
[32] - Quote
From least bad to worst:
Hot drops: they're a legitimate combat tactic that is overused. They've replaced the roam for a lot of people: send a small group of scouts out looking for things to drop on and only jump into the fights they can win. Of course, this is somewhat balanced by their opponents potentially having a larger hotdrop on standby...but still, it's a step down from flying a fleet through space.
Gate camps: No matter where you are, these are pretty lame. Sitting on a gate for hours shooting whatever hapless targets wander into being hopelessly outnumbered, and then running as soon as anyone comes at you with something capable of giving you a fight. It's not awesome PVP when you're taking less risk than a miner who refuses to buy a license from the New Order.
Note: I only consider it a gate camp if you don't have a specific target. If there's a fleet wandering null and you want to ambush it, sitting on a gate and waiting for them to jump through is the only chance you have to pull it off.
Station camping: I'm looking at you, highsec PVP carebears with your piles of neutral logis and bump machariels sitting outside whichever trade hub you've been humping for three months. Congratulations, you've mastered fighting in .001% of Eve space.
TL;DR: Abandon the no-risk PVP mentality and go after your targets. Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement. |

Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
431
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 02:32:00 -
[33] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Jealousy Asques wrote: Imo jumpgates should be done away with entirely except for possibly jumping from region to region.
If you are crying this much over gatecamps...i cant image the tsunami of tears that will pour from you when you need to MWD from system to system...or better yet, have the miserable experience of capdrain warp after capdrain warp for 3 hours to get to a next door system. Or just make every ship jump capable. Because that is how they do it in the movies. Otherwise Han would have been gate camped by Jabba before the movie even started.
This thread has so much content it may be 'Thread of the Year' and it is only January.
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silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
477
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 02:56:00 -
[34] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
TL;DR: Abandon the no-risk PVP mentality and go after your targets.
Translation: Abandon combat and go jousting.
BTW: Not claiming that Jousting is non-risk - people died in jousts very regulary. It just wasn't combat. It was violent sport. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.
Malcanis for CSM8 |

Typherian
Tri-gun C0NVICTED
32
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 03:18:00 -
[35] - Quote
Need to point out that titan bridging is the only way to catch risk-adverse blob fleets with scouts in all directions. Try to fly to them via gate and they run away if you are anywhere near their numbers/capability. A lot easier to slip one cyno boat in on them and ambush them. If you want to remove titan bridges remove local. Leaving local while destroying bridges moves eve away from fights not towards them. The core of the problem is people get butthurt over getting ambushed. Well too bad that is the point of an ambush, hit you when you aren't expecting it. |

Revman Zim
Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda
81
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 04:17:00 -
[36] - Quote
Looking at the kill that supposedly started this thread, I am going to guess that it was a Black Ops fleet drop.
Having participated in those fleets in the past, I can say that they are not easy. You have to scout a system and find a target. That target has to be STUPID enough to stay in one spot (even though our scout shows in local) long enough for the scout to decloak, pop a cyno and for all of us to jump in, point, scram, kill and GTFO before the calvary is called.
Skill intensive, nerve wracking, long waits for small rewards, exhilirating when it works out.
But the key is the target has to be STUPID.
P.S. You were killed in NULLSEC. There is this place with rainbows, unicorns and NO CYNO's.. it is called HISEC. |

Ra'Shyne Viper
Dissident Aggressors Mordus Angels
57
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 04:21:00 -
[37] - Quote
Revman Zim wrote:
But the key is the target has to be STUPID.
|

FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
2558
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 04:31:00 -
[38] - Quote
silens vesica wrote:FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
TL;DR: Abandon the no-risk PVP mentality and go after your targets.
Translation: Abandon combat and go jousting. BTW: Not claiming that Jousting is non-risk - people died in jousts very regulary. It just wasn't combat. It was violent sport. No, not jousting.
Notice I didn't say "don't blob". I never mentioned honorable combat. This isn't two guys barreling at each other under presumably equal circumstances. I'm saying that the people who engage in those activities need to get out of their comfort zones and live a little.
I spend the majority of my time at war with a half-dozen corps and alliances in highsec. I hunt my targets, running 20+ jumps to get a kill, exposing myself to ambushes and counter attacks every moment I'm active. I've watched hunter fleets start into a long warp and then ganked the last one off the gate, then led the rest of their fleet on a chase until I was able to single another one out. I've hunted targets while being hunted by mercenaries, avoiding their attempted traps and continuing to kill the corporation they were hired to protect. That is FAR more of a rush than "we sat on a gate and shot all the lone ships that came through and then warped off when a gang showed up on gate that could beat us". Risk is what makes Eve exciting. Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement. |

Dea della Morte
Perkone Caldari State
75
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 04:59:00 -
[39] - Quote
Jealousy Asques wrote:I generally love pvp games, the more hardcore the better, but I've lost interest in EVE... The extent of nullsec pvp is pretty much what the title says. Hot drops as far as I'm concerned are pretty much game breaking, a very cheesy, lame and over-used tactic. The hot droppers can pick their fights for very little risk and it almost always results in one sided battles. How do they contribute to epic space battles, what this game should be about? They don't. In intermediate/newb friendly corps one hot dropper capable ship shows up in your system and everyone is told to dock up for safety. Can't risk your precious kill boards! How fun is that? It's not!
At the very least there should be a limit on how much mass or the number of ships that can hot drop through one cyno field (3-4 cruisers, 2 battleships/ 1 carrier maybe at most), and they should not be able to escape by the same method (or log out for that matter) for a very long time.
Hisec war-dec pvp where hotdrops can't happen is alot more fun and fair, but very few people do it. Established pirate corps & pros do it, and other intermediate corps run and hide from it.
Even in hisec though pvp is largely about gate camps. I don't see them as quite as lame as hot-dropping, but it's still pretty weak, and boring 95% of the time if you're the one doing it. I don't know what would have to change to fix this dynamic but I think the game would benefit from some mechanic that reduced the need to camp gates, and the effectiveness of it. Right now the game feels more like a bunch of narrow hallways and bottlenecks rather than deep space.
Imo jumpgates should be done away with entirely except for possibly jumping from region to region. With bottlenecks removed, scanning could possibly be made more effective and accessible to everyone (not just a dedicated scanning ship, though those should still have an advantage) to make it easier to find fights. IE people shouldnt have to give up a hardpoint to be able to scan people down.
I certainly don't know everything, and maybe these are bad ideas, but I do know that the title of my thread sums up the game for me.
Jump a titan in, watch as the 300+ superfleet blob comes in, become the famous titan pilot that almost cost his alliance 100b+ isk, Profit.
They wana be "unfair"? you be unfair back, simple, and if you catch em bu suprise, then its even better |

Grohalmatar
The Tuskers
6
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 05:15:00 -
[40] - Quote
Its a sandbox. Create the kind of pvp you want.
Ignore gatecamps and hotdrops.
I'm sorry if you can't. |
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Aza Ebanu
Crunchy Crunchy Peregrine Nation
9
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 05:34:00 -
[41] - Quote
CCP put gatecamp/ hotdrop/ station camp mechanics because they only care about ship loss. It is the same reason why ships have enough slots but not enough grid/CPU to fit properly. If you don't lose your ship the economy dies. It would be like stepping into a country where the nation's economy thrives off crime. CCP is horrible at making fun, they have been proving it for the past 10 years. When a fun space MMO comes out I'd say about 50-100k EVE subs will unsub. the rest of the 350-400k subs will stay and enjoy their sandbox. |

Jealousy Asques
The Seventh Circle
23
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 05:37:00 -
[42] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:silens vesica wrote:FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
TL;DR: Abandon the no-risk PVP mentality and go after your targets.
Translation: Abandon combat and go jousting. BTW: Not claiming that Jousting is non-risk - people died in jousts very regulary. It just wasn't combat. It was violent sport. No, not jousting. Notice I didn't say "don't blob". I never mentioned honorable combat. This isn't two guys barreling at each other under presumably equal circumstances. I'm saying that the people who engage in those activities need to get out of their comfort zones and live a little. I spend the majority of my time at war with a half-dozen corps and alliances in highsec. I hunt my targets, running 20+ jumps to get a kill, exposing myself to ambushes and counter attacks every moment I'm active. I've watched hunter fleets start into a long warp and then ganked the last one off the gate, then led the rest of their fleet on a chase until I was able to single another one out. I've hunted targets while being hunted by mercenaries, avoiding their attempted traps and continuing to kill the corporation they were hired to protect. That is FAR more of a rush than "we sat on a gate and shot all the lone ships that came through and then warped off when a gang showed up on gate that could beat us". Risk is what makes Eve exciting.
This is a much more exciting type of combat... And no hot drops, imagine that. |

Aza Ebanu
Crunchy Crunchy Peregrine Nation
9
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 05:38:00 -
[43] - Quote
silens vesica wrote:FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
TL;DR: Abandon the no-risk PVP mentality and go after your targets.
Translation: Abandon combat and go jousting. BTW: Not claiming that Jousting is non-risk - people died in jousts very regulary. It just wasn't combat. It was violent sport. Yes and jousting was a game just like EVE fools people into believing. But in its essence it is a dark alley simulator. |

Jealousy Asques
The Seventh Circle
23
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 06:16:00 -
[44] - Quote
Revman Zim wrote:Looking at the kill that supposedly started this thread, I am going to guess that it was a Black Ops fleet drop.
Having participated in those fleets in the past, I can say that they are not easy. You have to scout a system and find a target. That target has to be STUPID enough to stay in one spot (even though our scout shows in local) long enough for the scout to decloak, pop a cyno and for all of us to jump in, point, scram, kill and GTFO before the calvary is called.
Skill intensive, nerve wracking, long waits for small rewards, exhilirating when it works out.
But the key is the target has to be STUPID.
P.S. You were killed in NULLSEC. There is this place with rainbows, unicorns and NO CYNO's.. it is called HISEC.
If by stupid you mean failed to get to warp in the 2 seconds it took for the hot dropper to decloak and scram me then ya... I'm stupid. I could have been a bit faster, but not much.
Or maybe I was stupid for not immediately docking up the second I noticed a random name in local. I waited maybe 10 secs, the time it took me to run the name though my the kos checker, which is neccessary because eve can't handle enough corps/players in the actual in game standings settings. If I docked up immediately anyone came into local, I might survive, but I'd have even less fun than I did dying to a hot drop, and I'd get nothing done.
I'll never join another nrds corp, never thought it was a good idea. But they have a right to play the way they do. It might be viable if the game didnt have the limitations it does, but probably not. I'm pretty sure that a separate non-kos neutral scanned me down before the kos hot dropper arrived in local, because he was at the belt in less than 5 secs. I had been at that belt less than a couple minutes, killing rats.
Regardless of all that, it doesnt change the fact that the hot dropping could still be done without neutrals. This brings up a separate issue. There are plenty of nullsec systems in the alliance the corp i was in at the time that ALWAYS have a known hot dropper in local. Replicator alone had ships in 5-6 systems I knew about, but it wasn't him this time. They can just sit there cloaked up and afk for weeks on end, scanning till they find a good target, and nobody can scan them down. Should my corp have abandoned those systems? After all it is stupid not to dock up with a known hot dropper in system. That sounds fun. The large alliance I was in didnt have the means or motivation to try and bait the hot droppers with a hot drop of their own. So maybe it's my alliance's fault? I can't blame them. There's hot droppers everywhere all the time and sitting and waiting/baiting would be almost as much fun as gate camping, and you'd still never know what was coming in.
So many broken systems in this game, but those that use them for nearly risk free "pvp" will defend them untill the day they or the game dies.
As far as rainbows and hisec pvp, I do enjoy that and wardecs alot more, but few corps actively pursue it and instead hide in null when they are wardeced. Truth is most of the game is full of chickenshits, on both sides of the hot dropping thing.
And you've got to be kidding me about hot dropping not being easy. If it wasnt easy for you, you seriously must be mentally lacking. I'm sure its much easier in nrds null where you can use neutral alts to scan down victims, but even elsewhere... Not hard.
|

Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
13884
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 06:19:00 -
[45] - Quote
People fight in ways others don't like, in a sandbox. News at 10.
Vote for Malcanis CSM8 |

Revman Zim
Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda
81
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 06:23:00 -
[46] - Quote
Jealousy Asques wrote:Revman Zim wrote:Looking at the kill that supposedly started this thread, I am going to guess that it was a Black Ops fleet drop.
Having participated in those fleets in the past, I can say that they are not easy. You have to scout a system and find a target. That target has to be STUPID enough to stay in one spot (even though our scout shows in local) long enough for the scout to decloak, pop a cyno and for all of us to jump in, point, scram, kill and GTFO before the calvary is called.
Skill intensive, nerve wracking, long waits for small rewards, exhilirating when it works out.
But the key is the target has to be STUPID.
P.S. You were killed in NULLSEC. There is this place with rainbows, unicorns and NO CYNO's.. it is called HISEC. If by stupid you mean failed to get to warp in the 2 seconds it took for the hot dropper to decloak and scram me then ya... I'm stupid. I could have been a bit faster, but not much. Or maybe I was stupid for not immediately docking up the second I noticed a random name in local. I waited maybe 10 secs, the time it took me to run the name though my the kos checker, which is neccessary because eve can't handle enough corps/players in the actual in game standings settings. If I docked up immediately anyone came into local, I might survive, but I'd have even less fun than I did dying to a hot drop, and I'd get nothing done. I'll never join another nrds corp, never thought it was a good idea. But they have a right to play the way they do. It might be viable if the game didnt have the limitations it does, but probably not. I'm pretty sure that a separate non-kos neutral scanned me down before the kos hot dropper arrived in local, because he was at the belt in less than 5 secs. I had been at that belt less than a couple minutes, killing rats. Regardless of all that, it doesnt change the fact that the hot dropping could still be done without neutrals. This brings up a separate issue. There are plenty of nullsec systems in the alliance the corp i was in at the time that ALWAYS have a known hot dropper in local. Replicator alone had ships in 5-6 systems I knew about, but it wasn't him this time. They can just sit there cloaked up and afk for weeks on end, scanning till they find a good target, and nobody can scan them down. Cloaking should not be as effective as it is. Should my corp have abandoned those systems? After all it is stupid not to dock up with a known hot dropper in system. That sounds fun, I'll sit in dock all day. The large alliance I was in didnt have the means or motivation to try and bait the hot droppers with a hot drop of their own. So maybe it's my alliance's fault? I can't blame them. There's hot droppers everywhere all the time and sitting and waiting/baiting would be almost as much fun as gate camping, and you'd still never know what was coming in. So many broken systems in this game, but those that use them for nearly risk free "pvp" will defend them untill the day they or the game dies. As far as rainbows and hisec pvp, I do enjoy that and wardecs alot more, but few corps actively pursue it and instead hide in null when they are wardeced. Truth is most of the game is full of chickenshits, on both sides of the hot dropping thing. And you've got to be kidding me about hot dropping not being easy. If it wasnt easy for you, you seriously must be mentally lacking. I'm sure its much easier in nrds null where you can use neutral alts to scan down victims, but even elsewhere... Not hard.
You mad bro?
Yeah... he mad.
P.S. Get out of NULL, you don't belong. HTFU. Get a bunch of friends... Oh, never mind. |

Jealousy Asques
The Seventh Circle
23
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 06:27:00 -
[47] - Quote
Mag's wrote:People fight in ways others don't like, in a sandbox. News at 10.
I'll once again refer you to my death star analogy. Its not about "how people fight", its about a mechanic that I think is in need of a tweak. The line has to be drawn somewhere, and I think it should be further back. |

Jealousy Asques
The Seventh Circle
23
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 06:36:00 -
[48] - Quote
Revman Zim wrote:
You mad bro?
Yeah... he mad.
P.S. Get out of NULL, you don't belong. HTFU. Get a bunch of friends... Oh, never mind.
It was quite a while ago that I got hot dropped, I'm not mad. Go ahead and defend a lame game mechanic. Dropping 30 ships on a single victim is probably the only way you can kill anything. I understand. I'd enjoy it too. The difference is I'm not so hungry for cheesy kills that I'll stick up for a mechanic that will drive away more players than it attracts. Hot dropping is only one issue... but combined with overpowered cloaking, boring gatecamps, and a few other things it makes nullsec pvp pretty f'n stupid. |

Morganta
Peripheral Madness
1824
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 07:03:00 -
[49] - Quote
lets see...
I want to shoot people, where do I go?
well there's always people at gates and stations but thats lame according to you... well I guess there's always trying to catch miners and mission runners...
hmm..
wow.. it just occurred to me, there's only like 4-5 places where you can actually find people to fight with in eve no wonder people camp choke and transit points 
really, crying about gate camps is crying about the core of the game, consider a different game
and fyi if you couldn't camp gates you would get a ton more hotdrops and blops
its called the element of surprise, its one of the best way to happy victory according to some long dead Chinese guy "You were the chosen one Anakin, you were supposed to bring order to the galaxy, not destroy it!" -Obi Wan (Ben) Kenobi -á |

Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
13885
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 07:09:00 -
[50] - Quote
Jealousy Asques wrote:Mag's wrote:People fight in ways others don't like, in a sandbox. News at 10. I'll once again refer you to my death star analogy. Its not about "how people fight", its about a mechanic that I think is in need of a tweak. The line has to be drawn somewhere, and I think it should be further back. But it is how people fight. Many simply do not want to use the tools CCP provide, to mitigate the risk. Or accept sh*t happens in a sandbox.
While there may be an argument for changes to cyno mechanics, gate camps are easily avoidable. But calling either 'lame' shows an unwillingness to adapt.
Vote for Malcanis CSM8 |
|

Sab Sab Five
Purging Maelstrom
8
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 07:10:00 -
[51] - Quote
Quote:the game feels more like a bunch of narrow hallways and bottlenecks rather than deep space.
There must be. In every game that involves PvP there will be a camp of some kind. Be it near valuables, at zone entrances, or at "spawn" points. This enables players to "get the jump" on those coming to those locations.
It makes sense for a fleet to wait for their enemy on the gate, otherwise because of the nature of deep space, they would never find them. The gates are places in which people must travel. CCP has graciously awarded us a battlefield on grid and mechanics that support how it is used.
That being said, i kinda like the idea that having high standings (why not say 8) with a company would grant you access to their private jump gate, which would take you to another private jump gate in some (possibly traditional or maybe new) neighboring system. Maybe one day they will add a nifty sneak attack feature, or more entrance points... but its not that bad now.
while some systems are always gate camped, reading a map and being careful are the name of the game. Sometimes you just can't get away. Head shot, down and out. That is when you tip your cap, because that is how world PvP is. |

terzho
StarFleet Enterprises Red Alliance
125
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 07:33:00 -
[52] - Quote
Just cause you're on the receiving end............. |

Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
543
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 07:46:00 -
[53] - Quote
1st.: Gate camping has nothing to do with pvp...it is like belt ratting...it earns isk. 2nd.: I agree, hot dropping in broken...but as long as it works we are going to continue with it.
"Also, your boobs " -á CCP Eterne, 2012
|

SMT008
Wormholers Anonymous Transmission Lost
505
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 08:27:00 -
[54] - Quote
Get a scout.
Alternatively, Get a scout AND check your targets' evekill. It tells you if they hotdrop or not, most of the time. |

Seleia O'Sinnor
Drop of Honey
304
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 08:35:00 -
[55] - Quote
Is there other PvP than choke point sitting and pos/station bashing? New inventory: Getting better since version 1.2, but what about back and forward buttons? |

Darius Brinn
Iberians Iberians.
193
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 09:01:00 -
[56] - Quote
Jealousy Asques wrote:[ I'm sure the hot droppers think its great fun, in fact that was what I was hoping to get into because it just seemed the way to go. Foolproof and fun! But I don't think it's good for the game. It's too easy.
You are right. It's too easy because the victim (AKA "you"):
-Didn't have friends. -Had a PvE fit (not that it would have mattered) -Are saying you "was hoping to get into it", which makes absolutely no goddamn sense at all.
Hotdrops are far from foolproof. We are constantly killing bait cynos, knowing they are cynos. Sometimes we get hotdropped, but it's far from foolproof.
The "fool" factor in EvE is very important.
|

Eisen Kern
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 09:27:00 -
[57] - Quote
Too much talk on effectiveness, the problem is the fun factor. Gate camps (I haven't been hot dropped) are not fun, for the camper or campee. People do it because that's how it needs to be done as is - I get that. It shouldn't be how it needs to be done to get some action. If CCP can remove the common gate camp and leave the essential territory control choke points whilst ensuring similar or more fights, everyone wins. It should be doable.
Not proposing any solutions - anything off the cuff will have plenty of (easily filled) holes that will be pointed out repeatedly by people that can't think something through two steps, as has already been done in this thread. |

HVAC Repairman
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
383
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 09:33:00 -
[58] - Quote
"LIFE ISN'T FAIR"
- EVE Online Player Follow me on twitter |

DrunkenNinja
The Milkmen Test Alliance Please Ignore
98
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 09:46:00 -
[59] - Quote
I agree with you on some points OP. The game is definately still amazing and fun, but over emphasis on gatecamps and the abundancy of "hotdrops" and other mechanics could use a tweak. |

Rordan D'Kherr
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
418
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 10:00:00 -
[60] - Quote
Unfair / lame / imbalanced pvp gameplay is the essence and challenge of this game. _______________________________________ Don't be scared, because being afk is not a crime. |
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