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Hot drops and gate camps = lame pvp.

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Jealousy Asques The Seventh Circle 21	Posted - 2013.01.30 23:56:00 - [1] - Quote I generally love pvp games, the more hardcore the better, but I've lost interest in EVE... The extent of nullsec pvp is pretty much what the title says. Hot drops as far as I'm concerned are pretty much game breaking, a very cheesy, lame and over-used tactic. The hot droppers can pick their fights for very little risk and it almost always results in one sided battles. How do they contribute to epic space battles, what this game should be about? They don't. In intermediate/newb friendly corps one hot dropper capable ship shows up in your system and everyone is told to dock up for safety. Can't risk your precious kill boards! How fun is that? It's not! At the very least there should be a limit on how much mass or the number of ships that can hot drop through one cyno field (3-4 cruisers, 2 battleships/ 1 carrier maybe at most), and they should not be able to escape by the same method (or log out for that matter) for a very long time. Hisec war-dec pvp where hotdrops can't happen is alot more fun and fair, but very few people do it. Established pirate corps & pros do it, and other intermediate corps run and hide from it. Even in hisec though pvp is largely about gate camps. I don't see them as quite as lame as hot-dropping, but it's still pretty weak, and boring 95% of the time if you're the one doing it. I don't know what would have to change to fix this dynamic but I think the game would benefit from some mechanic that reduced the need to camp gates, and the effectiveness of it. Right now the game feels more like a bunch of narrow hallways and bottlenecks rather than deep space. Imo jumpgates should be done away with entirely except for possibly jumping from region to region. With bottlenecks removed, scanning could possibly be made more effective and accessible to everyone (not just a dedicated scanning ship, though those should still have an advantage) to make it easier to find fights. IE people shouldnt have to give up a hardpoint to be able to scan people down. I certainly don't know everything, and maybe these are bad ideas, but I do know that the title of my thread sums up the game for me.
Karl Hobb Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium 909	Posted - 2013.01.31 00:05:00 - [2] - Quote Jealousy Asques wrote: everyone is told to dock up for safety. Can't risk your precious kill boards! If you're docking up because of killboards I'd say you're in a terrible, terrible organization. I mean, my corp is as **** as they come but at least our strategy is along the lines of " it, might as well". If my CEO started worrying about our killboards I'd go over to his house, tell him to ** off, and drink all his whiskey. And whining about gatecamps is so passe. Get some friends and HTFU. If you're not already part of a bloc, this is the best guy for CSM8.
Akiyo Mayaki 99	Posted - 2013.01.31 00:11:00 - [3] - Quote Many people seem to be happy with how it is, so I guess it ain't that bad. No
Unsuccessful At Everything The Troll Bridge 1716	Posted - 2013.01.31 00:14:00 - [4] - Quote Jealousy Asques wrote: Imo jumpgates should be done away with entirely except for possibly jumping from region to region. If you are crying this much over gatecamps...i cant image the tsunami of tears that will pour from you when you need to MWD from system to system...or better yet, have the miserable experience of capdrain warp after capdrain warp for 3 hours to get to a next door system. *Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?*
Jealousy Asques The Seventh Circle 21	Posted - 2013.01.31 00:17:00 - [5] - Quote Karl Hobb wrote: Jealousy Asques wrote: everyone is told to dock up for safety. Can't risk your precious kill boards! If you're docking up because of killboards I'd say you're in a terrible, terrible organization. I mean, my corp is as **** as they come but at least our strategy is along the lines of " it, might as well". If my CEO started worrying about our killboards I'd go over to his house, tell him to ** off, and drink all his whiskey. And whining about gatecamps is so passe. Get some friends and HTFU. Whatever dude, if you think gate camping is fun and cannot be improved on, move along, you have nothing to contribute. In any case gate camping is not as lame as the current hot dropping mechanics. Also, if you think a majority of the newb friendly clans don't often tell their newer members to dock up and stay there then... You are wrong. How else does any (other than very large established) corp compete with a hot dropper that drops 20-40 ships on one noob farming belt rats? Happens all the time. And then poof they are gone before anyone even knows what happened.
Nicolo da'Vicenza Air The Unthinkables 2740	Posted - 2013.01.31 00:17:00 - [6] - Quote The loss that caused this thread yeah nerf cynos that'll spite those wormhole dwellers
Jealousy Asques The Seventh Circle 21	Posted - 2013.01.31 00:18:00 - [7] - Quote Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: Jealousy Asques wrote: Imo jumpgates should be done away with entirely except for possibly jumping from region to region. If you are crying this much over gatecamps...i cant image the tsunami of tears that will pour from you when you need to MWD from system to system...or better yet, have the miserable experience of capdrain warp after capdrain warp for 3 hours to get to a next door system. Clearly you are an idiot if you didn't think there would have to be some new mechanic to allow jumping from system to system. Think before you speak. Regardless was just a quick idea off the top of my head and not the focus of the thread. I'm just saying the current system could be better and I welcome your ideas to fix it. How is this game not about hallways and bottlenecks? Does that feel like deep space to you?
Unsuccessful At Everything The Troll Bridge 1716	Posted - 2013.01.31 00:26:00 - [8] - Quote Jealousy Asques wrote: Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: Jealousy Asques wrote: Imo jumpgates should be done away with entirely except for possibly jumping from region to region. If you are crying this much over gatecamps...i cant image the tsunami of tears that will pour from you when you need to MWD from system to system...or better yet, have the miserable experience of capdrain warp after capdrain warp for 3 hours to get to a next door system. Clearly you are an idiot if you didn't think there would have to be some new mechanic to allow jumping from systemn to system. Think before you speak. Because some other system of intersystem travel wont be camped in any way eventually too right? What is your proposal then? Cynoless jump drives? Random spawn points within lets say 13km of existing gates with 30 seconds of cloaked invulnerability? Dust Shrouds with +1 to teleport? How about we all just petetion GMs whenever we want to be moved from system to system? Wanting to remove gates because of gate camping is like removing your ** because youre afraid of STDs. Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?**
Jealousy Asques The Seventh Circle 21	Posted - 2013.01.31 00:32:00 - [9] - Quote Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote: The loss that caused this thread yeah nerf cynos that'll spite those wormhole dwellers You're right I did lose a ship to hot droppers but that was a while ago. I'm sure the hot droppers think its great fun, in fact that was what I was hoping to get into because it just seemed the way to go. Foolproof and fun! But I don't think it's good for the game. It's too easy.
Jealousy Asques The Seventh Circle 21	Posted - 2013.01.31 00:40:00 - [10] - Quote Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: Because some other system of intersystem travel wont be camped in any way eventually too right? What is your proposal then? Cynoless jump drives? Random spawn points within lets say 13km of existing gates with 30 seconds of cloaked invulnerability? Dust Shrouds with +1 to teleport? How about we all just petetion GMs whenever we want to be moved from system to system? Wanting to remove gates because of gate camping is like removing your **** because youre afraid of STDs. I don't hold any illusions that the game will change, I'm just stating what I think could be improved upon. And yes cynoless jump drives that only worked at the borders of a system could be an option. You would also need to be able to warp to any point in the system rather than just to presaved locations and permanent points of interest. And maybe add the ability to track warp trails ala Star Trek so that its not too easy to run and hide. I always thought it was kinda lame that you cant just pick a set of coordinates off the map and warp there. Is that beyond the capabilities of future navigation computers? I'm open to ideas and mostly just spouting. If you don't agree that a space game with pvp based on gate camping is kinda weak then... we disagree, and theres not much more to be said. You don't have to read or reply to my post.

Dessau 103	Posted - 2013.01.31 00:50:00 - [11] - Quote Well, bottlenecks in this game are way less of an issue than other open world PvP games. Map statistics can help, scrams and bubbles have hard counters. Camps are fishing with a net instead of a spear. I don't use 'em but can't fault those who do. Solo is one player, one pilot.
ACE McFACE Holy Amarrian Battlemonk I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth 1106	Posted - 2013.01.31 00:50:00 - [12] - Quote Karl Hobb wrote: Jealousy Asques wrote: everyone is told to dock up for safety. Can't risk your precious kill boards! If you're docking up because of killboards I'd say you're in a terrible, terrible organization. I mean, my corp is as **** as they come but at least our strategy is along the lines of " it, might as well". If my CEO started worrying about our killboards I'd go over to his house, tell him to ** off, and drink all his whiskey. And whining about gatecamps is so passe. Get some friends and HTFU. This DUST514 isn't on PC because CCP wants 2 different communities influencing each other, not people tabbing out to give themselves Orbital Strikes. (Also they don't want to cannibalise their existing playerbase)
Bienator II madmen of the skies 1473	Posted - 2013.01.31 00:52:00 - [13] - Quote well. it is lame but at the same time it is required in a real sandbox. You can't restrict people how they should fight. a eve-style bounty system (done)-á dust boarding parties You fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked
Harry Inskipp Jupiter Roughriders We Suck At This Game 1	Posted - 2013.01.31 00:52:00 - [14] - Quote In all the history of mankind and warfare, there have been very few occurrences of "fair" PVP. The Huns, the Mongols, the *****, the Allies, the U.S. Cavalry. The all won battles through the use of unfair tactics. Also when Seal Team 6 took out Bin Laden they did a hot drop that was incredibly unfair. So don't expect anything different in imagination-land.
Jealousy Asques The Seventh Circle 21	Posted - 2013.01.31 00:54:00 - [15] - Quote ACE McFACE wrote: This lol... thank you for your awesome contribution. Clearly all intermediate corps should just disband, because there is a fair and viable counter to hot dropping that they have somehow missed.
Jealousy Asques The Seventh Circle 21	Posted - 2013.01.31 00:58:00 - [16] - Quote Harry Inskipp wrote: In all the history of mankind and warfare, there have been very few occurrences of "fair" PVP. The Huns, the Mongols, the ****, the Allies, the U.S. Cavalry. The all won battles through the use of unfair tactics. Also when Seal Team 6 took out Bin Laden they did a hot drop that was incredibly unfair. So don't expect anything different in imagination-land. So... We should just introduce a new ship. A Death-Star that was designed with no exploitable vulnerabilities (stupid vader!) and can warp around the galaxy annihilating planets and fleets at will. It's just another mechanic like hot dropping, and we shouldnt limit how people play, right? You have to draw the line somewhere, and hot dropping is just too easy. At least make the cyno take longer to set up, and limit the number of ships that can come through. They could still "chain-cyno" and get just as many people there, it would just take longer, not blink* +40 ships pew pew blink empty space + debris.
Klown Walk New Eden Renegades Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns 203	Posted - 2013.01.31 01:03:00 - [17] - Quote Gate camps is the best way to get fights imo.
Shamus O'Reilly Gungnirs' Point I Know Right 73	Posted - 2013.01.31 01:05:00 - [18] - Quote Jealousy Asques wrote: ACE McFACE wrote: This lol... thank you for your awesome contribution. Clearly all intermediate corps should just disband, because there is a fair and viable counter to hot dropping that they have somehow missed. Youre raging on about a tool in a sandbox. Hotdrops have led to many even fights, escalated to fleet battles such as Asakai (and allowed for them to happen), just as they have for the group to drop a gatecamp or a small gang just so they can kill them. I've been on the receiving end of Hot Drops. All they did for me was say oh **** and then laugh my ass off
Shamus O'Reilly Gungnirs' Point I Know Right 73	Posted - 2013.01.31 01:08:00 - [19] - Quote Jealousy Asques wrote: Harry Inskipp wrote: In all the history of mankind and warfare, there have been very few occurrences of "fair" PVP. The Huns, the Mongols, the ****, the Allies, the U.S. Cavalry. The all won battles through the use of unfair tactics. Also when Seal Team 6 took out Bin Laden they did a hot drop that was incredibly unfair. So don't expect anything different in imagination-land. So... We should just introduce a new ship. A Death-Star that was designed with no exploitable vulnerabilities (stupid vader!) and can warp around the galaxy annihilating planets and fleets at will. It's just another mechanic like hot dropping, and we shouldnt limit how people play, right? You have to draw the line somewhere, and hot dropping is just too easy. At least make the cyno take longer to set up, and limit the number of ships that can come through. They could still "chain-cyno" and get just as many people there, it would just take longer, not blink* +40 ships pew pew blink empty space + debris. If you honestly think that hot dropping is on par with a Death Star style weapon then you're really... honestly either the most unlucky low/null dweller alive or you can't counter them as many can. By the way you can just say im a hotdropper right now so i can laugh because i've never used a titan bridge in game
Vertisce Soritenshi Tactical Vendor of Services and Goods Partners of Industrial Service and Salvage 2119	Posted - 2013.01.31 01:11:00 - [20] - Quote I am kind of with the OP on this one. I am a 10 year vet of EVE. Multiple accounts trained and sold throughout that time and the vast majority of it was fun. Currently I have been on a hiatus from EVE for reasons anchored firmly in reality...unfortunately...but right now I really don't know for sure if I even want to come back to EVE. People talk about how hardcore EVE is with it's PVP but all I have seen for years now is gatecamps, station games and hotdrops. Even WH space PVP got dull because all anybody did was play games on the WH's and crash them thinking they are the "l33t roxxxxor PEE VEE PEEers" because they trap a single ship on one side of a WH and then log off because they are afraid to lose a ship. It just isn't all that fun anymore. Nullsec is clearly not what it was intended to be with half the galaxy blue to each other and both sides too afraid to actually do anything to the other for fear of losing too much. The Sov system is nothing short of a massive pain in the ass. Jump bridges were a HUGE mistake right from the get go and should be removed entirely from the game to spur more PVP and better economy in nullsec... I could go on...but I won't. Suffice it to say that EVE has changed. Maybe for the better, maybe not...either way...it isn't for everybody and slowly, very slowly becoming less and less "my game". Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821

Shamus O'Reilly Gungnirs' Point I Know Right 73	Posted - 2013.01.31 01:16:00 - [21] - Quote Vertisce Soritenshi wrote: I am kind of with the OP on this one. I am a 10 year vet of EVE. Multiple accounts trained and sold throughout that time and the vast majority of it was fun. Currently I have been on a hiatus from EVE for reasons anchored firmly in reality...unfortunately...but right now I really don't know for sure if I even want to come back to EVE. People talk about how hardcore EVE is with it's PVP but all I have seen for years now is gatecamps, station games and hotdrops. Even WH space PVP got dull because all anybody did was play games on the WH's and crash them thinking they are the "l33t roxxxxor PEE VEE PEEers" because they trap a single ship on one side of a WH and then log off because they are afraid to lose a ship. It just isn't all that fun anymore. Nullsec is clearly not what it was intended to be with half the galaxy blue to each other and both sides too afraid to actually do anything to the other for fear of losing too much. The Sov system is nothing short of a massive pain in the ass. Jump bridges were a HUGE mistake right from the get go and should be removed entirely from the game to spur more PVP and better economy in nullsec... I could go on...but I won't. Suffice it to say that EVE has changed. Maybe for the better, maybe not...either way...it isn't for everybody and slowly, very slowly becoming less and less "my game". There's still great fights for small gangs in lowsec FW areas. You don't need to join FW for it obviously and on the scale to 20 vs 20 happens often as of late due to the FW fixes in 2012. And Wspace in the past year of playing has been even more fun in small gang fights than lowsec has been for me
Jealousy Asques The Seventh Circle 22	Posted - 2013.01.31 01:20:00 - [22] - Quote Klown Walk wrote: Gate camps is the best way to get fights imo. You're right, as things are right now. That doesn't change the fact that they are boring as hell 90% of the time, and they make the game feel to me like a glorified text mud. .... "go east" > you enter a empty hall with 2 doors. "go east" > you enter a room with 3 doors. You see a dead potted plant and a desk. There is a picture of a planet with rings on the wall. "go south". >you enter a room with 2 doors. You see 4 player(s). >Xt3r3m3 D3wd stabs you for 1200. >L33tSawsh stabs you for 1600 (crit!) >you die. >press [Return] to play again.
Jealousy Asques The Seventh Circle 22	Posted - 2013.01.31 01:26:00 - [23] - Quote Shamus O'Reilly wrote: Jealousy Asques wrote: Harry Inskipp wrote: In all the history of mankind and warfare, there have been very few occurrences of "fair" PVP. The Huns, the Mongols, the ****, the Allies, the U.S. Cavalry. The all won battles through the use of unfair tactics. Also when Seal Team 6 took out Bin Laden they did a hot drop that was incredibly unfair. So don't expect anything different in imagination-land. So... We should just introduce a new ship. A Death-Star that was designed with no exploitable vulnerabilities (stupid vader!) and can warp around the galaxy annihilating planets and fleets at will. It's just another mechanic like hot dropping, and we shouldnt limit how people play, right? You have to draw the line somewhere, and hot dropping is just too easy. At least make the cyno take longer to set up, and limit the number of ships that can come through. They could still "chain-cyno" and get just as many people there, it would just take longer, not blink* +40 ships pew pew blink empty space + debris. If you honestly think that hot dropping is on par with a Death Star style weapon then you're really... honestly either the most unlucky low/null dweller alive or you can't counter them as many can. By the way you can just say im a hotdropper right now so i can laugh because i've never used a titan bridge in game How does one lone player (no matter how big a corp hes in) counter 30+ stealth bombers hot dropping on him? You might get lucky now and then but in reality a good hot dropper can always choose his fights, and unless hes targetting the same area over and over nobody is going to have time to react or set a trap capable of exacting revenge. If your hot drops ever fail its simply a matter of you choosing your targets very very poorly.
silens vesica Corsair Cartel 476	Posted - 2013.01.31 01:27:00 - [24] - Quote Seems to me, people have a hard time telling the difference between jousting and combat. Combat is ugly, brutal, and quick. Every possible dirty trick is used ruthlessly to get the upper hand. Never give a sucker an even break, shoot 'em in the back if you can, and then burn the corpse. Jousting, on the other hand, involves honor, rules, parity of force and (maybe) skill, etc. etc. Whenever I see someone whinging about 'lame PvP' or 'bad PvP' or otherwise kvetching about getting blown out of space in ways that are inconvenient, I'm pretty sure I've found another person whom has confused the two. Bubble camps and gate camps are valid, useful, effective tools for control - and combat. Don't like dying in a gate camp? Bring friends. Or 'up' your skills. Or both. Want to joust? Join Red v. Blue. But know that if you come here to whinge, folks as are interested in combat are going to know that you're their legitimate prey. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing. Malcanis for CSM8
Unsuccessful At Everything The Troll Bridge 1723	Posted - 2013.01.31 01:27:00 - [25] - Quote Jealousy Asques wrote: So... We should just introduce a new ship. A Death-Star that was designed with no exploitable vulnerabilities (stupid vader!) and can warp around the galaxy annihilating planets and fleets at will. Well, only 99.9% invulnerable. theres always a small chance that a 1 man fighter might skim across a trench and shoot a torpedo down a hole and blow it all up. I know what youre thinking...whoa...that sounds like a major design flaw. But it was really just an aesthetic choice by the architect, and its only 2 meters across..which in reality is no bigger than a whomprat, so itll probably be ok. *Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?*
Shamus O'Reilly Gungnirs' Point I Know Right 73	Posted - 2013.01.31 01:29:00 - [26] - Quote Jealousy Asques wrote: Shamus O'Reilly wrote: Jealousy Asques wrote: Harry Inskipp wrote: In all the history of mankind and warfare, there have been very few occurrences of "fair" PVP. The Huns, the Mongols, the ****, the Allies, the U.S. Cavalry. The all won battles through the use of unfair tactics. Also when Seal Team 6 took out Bin Laden they did a hot drop that was incredibly unfair. So don't expect anything different in imagination-land. So... We should just introduce a new ship. A Death-Star that was designed with no exploitable vulnerabilities (stupid vader!) and can warp around the galaxy annihilating planets and fleets at will. It's just another mechanic like hot dropping, and we shouldnt limit how people play, right? You have to draw the line somewhere, and hot dropping is just too easy. At least make the cyno take longer to set up, and limit the number of ships that can come through. They could still "chain-cyno" and get just as many people there, it would just take longer, not blink* +40 ships pew pew blink empty space + debris. If you honestly think that hot dropping is on par with a Death Star style weapon then you're really... honestly either the most unlucky low/null dweller alive or you can't counter them as many can. By the way you can just say im a hotdropper right now so i can laugh because i've never used a titan bridge in game How does one lone player (no matter how big a corp hes in) counter 30+ stealth bombers hot dropping on him? You might get lucky now and then but in reality a good hot dropper can always choose his fights, and unless hes targetting the same area over and over nobody is going to have time to react or set a trap capable of exacting revenge. If your hot drops ever fail its simply a matter of you choosing your targets very very poorly. Then learn and adapt to either fight against it (set a trap for the trap???) or learn who not to fight solo
Jealousy Asques The Seventh Circle 22	Posted - 2013.01.31 01:34:00 - [27] - Quote silens vesica wrote: Seems to me, people have a hard time telling the difference between jousting and combat. Combat is ugly, brutal, and quick. Every possible dirty trick is used ruthlessly to get the upper hand. Never give a sucker an even break, shoot 'em in the back if you can, and then burn the corpse. Jousting, on the other hand, involves honor, rules, parity of force and (maybe) skill, etc. etc. Whenever I see someone whinging about 'lame PvP' or 'bad PvP' or otherwise kvetching about getting blown out of space in ways that are inconvenient, I'm pretty sure I've found another person whom has confused the two. Bubble camps and gate camps are valid, useful, effective tools for control - and combat. Don't like dying in a gate camp? Bring friends. Or 'up' your skills. Or both. Want to joust? Join Red v. Blue. But know that if you come here to whinge, folks as are interested in combat are going to know that you're their legitimate prey. Eh whatever... The gatecamping was really a side issue, I should have stopped at hot dropping for this topic. In any case my arguement about gatecamping isn't so much about fairness as it is about lameness and boredom. On the other hand if you think hot dropping doesn't need to be tweaked then eh, bite me. It's no different than the death star example I gave, just to a different extreme, and i think the line needs to be drawn a bit farther back. If this was a FPS game I swear I'd have aim botters here defending their use of hacks. It's available, thus its a viable & valid tactic.
Jealousy Asques The Seventh Circle 22	Posted - 2013.01.31 01:36:00 - [28] - Quote Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: Jealousy Asques wrote: So... We should just introduce a new ship. A Death-Star that was designed with no exploitable vulnerabilities (stupid vader!) and can warp around the galaxy annihilating planets and fleets at will. Well, only 99.9% invulnerable. theres always a small chance that a 1 man fighter might skim across a trench and shoot a torpedo down a hole and blow it all up. I know what youre thinking...whoa...that sounds like a major design flaw. But it was really just an aesthetic choice by the architect, and its only 2 meters across..which in reality is no bigger than a whomprat, so itll probably be ok. And thus why the Empire failed! This wouldbe Deathstar v.3 - we learn from their mistakes!
silens vesica Corsair Cartel 477	Posted - 2013.01.31 01:46:00 - [29] - Quote Jealousy Asques wrote: silens vesica wrote: Seems to me, people have a hard time telling the difference between jousting and combat. Combat is ugly, brutal, and quick. Every possible dirty trick is used ruthlessly to get the upper hand. Never give a sucker an even break, shoot 'em in the back if you can, and then burn the corpse. Jousting, on the other hand, involves honor, rules, parity of force and (maybe) skill, etc. etc. Whenever I see someone whinging about 'lame PvP' or 'bad PvP' or otherwise kvetching about getting blown out of space in ways that are inconvenient, I'm pretty sure I've found another person whom has confused the two. Bubble camps and gate camps are valid, useful, effective tools for control - and combat. Don't like dying in a gate camp? Bring friends. Or 'up' your skills. Or both. Want to joust? Join Red v. Blue. But know that if you come here to whinge, folks as are interested in combat are going to know that you're their legitimate prey. Eh whatever... The gatecamping was really a side issue, I should have stopped at hot dropping for this topic. In any case my arguement about gatecamping isn't so much about fairness as it is about lameness and boredom. On the other hand if you think hot dropping doesn't need to be tweaked then eh, bite me. It's no different than the death star example I gave, just to a different extreme, and i think the line needs to be drawn a bit farther back. If this was a FPS game I swear I'd have aim botters here defending their use of hacks. It's available, thus its a viable & valid tactic. My point being that 'Lame' is only if you don't see what they're trying (very effectively) to do, or are on the losing end of a mechanic. You may not like it, but they're there for a reason, and wouldn't be doing it if it was ineffectual. And yeah, running a camp (or any other form of sentry work) can be deadly boring. It's still vital. Hot-droppping is also a bloody-handed tool for violencing folks as you wish to kill quicky and brutally. It's not meant to be anything other than that. It's only 'lame' if you're on the recieving end of the violence. Game mechanic tweaks happen all the time, mostly to provide some artificial parity between those whom are skilled & wealthy and those who are less skilled and/or less wealthy. Without tweaks, there would be a way to win EVE - and it would happen in fairly short order. When camps and hot-drops get so over-poweringly effective that the game ceases to become a game, they'll be changed. Until that time (if indeed it ever comes), fly smarter. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing. Malcanis for CSM8
Karrl Tian Exiled Assassins Equestria Alliance 172	Posted - 2013.01.31 01:48:00 - [30] - Quote Jealousy Asques wrote: How does one lone player (no matter how big a corp hes in) counter 30+ stealth bombers hot dropping on him? You might get lucky now and then but in reality a good hot dropper can always choose his fights, and unless hes targetting the same area over and over nobody is going to have time to react or set a trap capable of exacting revenge. If your hot drops ever fail its simply a matter of you choosing your targets very very poorly. Funny you mention bombers....considering what happens when you bait a hotdrop then launch multiple bombs at the cyno.

silens vesica Corsair Cartel 477	Posted - 2013.01.31 01:49:00 - [31] - Quote Karrl Tian wrote: Jealousy Asques wrote: How does one lone player (no matter how big a corp hes in) counter 30+ stealth bombers hot dropping on him? You might get lucky now and then but in reality a good hot dropper can always choose his fights, and unless hes targetting the same area over and over nobody is going to have time to react or set a trap capable of exacting revenge. If your hot drops ever fail its simply a matter of you choosing your targets very very poorly. Funny you mention bombers....considering what happens when you bait a hotdrop then launch multiple bombs at the cyno. Fireworks! Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing. Malcanis for CSM8
FloppieTheBanjoClown The Skunkworks 2558	Posted - 2013.01.31 02:28:00 - [32] - Quote From least bad to worst: Hot drops: they're a legitimate combat tactic that is overused. They've replaced the roam for a lot of people: send a small group of scouts out looking for things to drop on and only jump into the fights they can win. Of course, this is somewhat balanced by their opponents potentially having a larger hotdrop on standby...but still, it's a step down from flying a fleet through space. Gate camps: No matter where you are, these are pretty lame. Sitting on a gate for hours shooting whatever hapless targets wander into being hopelessly outnumbered, and then running as soon as anyone comes at you with something capable of giving you a fight. It's not awesome PVP when you're taking less risk than a miner who refuses to buy a license from the New Order. Note: I only consider it a gate camp if you don't have a specific target. If there's a fleet wandering null and you want to ambush it, sitting on a gate and waiting for them to jump through is the only chance you have to pull it off. Station camping: I'm looking at you, highsec PVP carebears with your piles of neutral logis and bump machariels sitting outside whichever trade hub you've been humping for three months. Congratulations, you've mastered fighting in .001% of Eve space. TL;DR: Abandon the no-risk PVP mentality and go after your targets. Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Nexus Day Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau 431	Posted - 2013.01.31 02:32:00 - [33] - Quote Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: Jealousy Asques wrote: Imo jumpgates should be done away with entirely except for possibly jumping from region to region. If you are crying this much over gatecamps...i cant image the tsunami of tears that will pour from you when you need to MWD from system to system...or better yet, have the miserable experience of capdrain warp after capdrain warp for 3 hours to get to a next door system. Or just make every ship jump capable. Because that is how they do it in the movies. Otherwise Han would have been gate camped by Jabba before the movie even started. This thread has so much content it may be 'Thread of the Year' and it is only January.
silens vesica Corsair Cartel 477	Posted - 2013.01.31 02:56:00 - [34] - Quote FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: TL;DR: Abandon the no-risk PVP mentality and go after your targets. Translation: Abandon combat and go jousting. BTW: Not claiming that Jousting is non-risk - people died in jousts very regulary. It just wasn't combat. It was violent sport. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing. Malcanis for CSM8
Typherian Tri-gun C0NVICTED 32	Posted - 2013.01.31 03:18:00 - [35] - Quote Need to point out that titan bridging is the only way to catch risk-adverse blob fleets with scouts in all directions. Try to fly to them via gate and they run away if you are anywhere near their numbers/capability. A lot easier to slip one cyno boat in on them and ambush them. If you want to remove titan bridges remove local. Leaving local while destroying bridges moves eve away from fights not towards them. The core of the problem is people get butthurt over getting ambushed. Well too bad that is the point of an ambush, hit you when you aren't expecting it.
Revman Zim Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda 81	Posted - 2013.01.31 04:17:00 - [36] - Quote Looking at the kill that supposedly started this thread, I am going to guess that it was a Black Ops fleet drop. Having participated in those fleets in the past, I can say that they are not easy. You have to scout a system and find a target. That target has to be STUPID enough to stay in one spot (even though our scout shows in local) long enough for the scout to decloak, pop a cyno and for all of us to jump in, point, scram, kill and GTFO before the calvary is called. Skill intensive, nerve wracking, long waits for small rewards, exhilirating when it works out. But the key is the target has to be STUPID. P.S. You were killed in NULLSEC. There is this place with rainbows, unicorns and NO CYNO's.. it is called HISEC.
Ra'Shyne Viper Dissident Aggressors Mordus Angels 57	Posted - 2013.01.31 04:21:00 - [37] - Quote Revman Zim wrote: But the key is the target has to be STUPID.
FloppieTheBanjoClown The Skunkworks 2558	Posted - 2013.01.31 04:31:00 - [38] - Quote silens vesica wrote: FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: TL;DR: Abandon the no-risk PVP mentality and go after your targets. Translation: Abandon combat and go jousting. BTW: Not claiming that Jousting is non-risk - people died in jousts very regulary. It just wasn't combat. It was violent sport. No, not jousting. Notice I didn't say "don't blob". I never mentioned honorable combat. This isn't two guys barreling at each other under presumably equal circumstances. I'm saying that the people who engage in those activities need to get out of their comfort zones and live a little. I spend the majority of my time at war with a half-dozen corps and alliances in highsec. I hunt my targets, running 20+ jumps to get a kill, exposing myself to ambushes and counter attacks every moment I'm active. I've watched hunter fleets start into a long warp and then ganked the last one off the gate, then led the rest of their fleet on a chase until I was able to single another one out. I've hunted targets while being hunted by mercenaries, avoiding their attempted traps and continuing to kill the corporation they were hired to protect. That is FAR more of a rush than "we sat on a gate and shot all the lone ships that came through and then warped off when a gang showed up on gate that could beat us". Risk is what makes Eve exciting. Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Dea della Morte Perkone Caldari State 75	Posted - 2013.01.31 04:59:00 - [39] - Quote Jealousy Asques wrote: I generally love pvp games, the more hardcore the better, but I've lost interest in EVE... The extent of nullsec pvp is pretty much what the title says. Hot drops as far as I'm concerned are pretty much game breaking, a very cheesy, lame and over-used tactic. The hot droppers can pick their fights for very little risk and it almost always results in one sided battles. How do they contribute to epic space battles, what this game should be about? They don't. In intermediate/newb friendly corps one hot dropper capable ship shows up in your system and everyone is told to dock up for safety. Can't risk your precious kill boards! How fun is that? It's not! At the very least there should be a limit on how much mass or the number of ships that can hot drop through one cyno field (3-4 cruisers, 2 battleships/ 1 carrier maybe at most), and they should not be able to escape by the same method (or log out for that matter) for a very long time. Hisec war-dec pvp where hotdrops can't happen is alot more fun and fair, but very few people do it. Established pirate corps & pros do it, and other intermediate corps run and hide from it. Even in hisec though pvp is largely about gate camps. I don't see them as quite as lame as hot-dropping, but it's still pretty weak, and boring 95% of the time if you're the one doing it. I don't know what would have to change to fix this dynamic but I think the game would benefit from some mechanic that reduced the need to camp gates, and the effectiveness of it. Right now the game feels more like a bunch of narrow hallways and bottlenecks rather than deep space. Imo jumpgates should be done away with entirely except for possibly jumping from region to region. With bottlenecks removed, scanning could possibly be made more effective and accessible to everyone (not just a dedicated scanning ship, though those should still have an advantage) to make it easier to find fights. IE people shouldnt have to give up a hardpoint to be able to scan people down. I certainly don't know everything, and maybe these are bad ideas, but I do know that the title of my thread sums up the game for me. Jump a titan in, watch as the 300+ superfleet blob comes in, become the famous titan pilot that almost cost his alliance 100b+ isk, Profit. They wana be "unfair"? you be unfair back, simple, and if you catch em bu suprise, then its even better
Grohalmatar The Tuskers 6	Posted - 2013.01.31 05:15:00 - [40] - Quote Its a sandbox. Create the kind of pvp you want. Ignore gatecamps and hotdrops. I'm sorry if you can't.

Aza Ebanu Crunchy Crunchy Peregrine Nation 9	Posted - 2013.01.31 05:34:00 - [41] - Quote CCP put gatecamp/ hotdrop/ station camp mechanics because they only care about ship loss. It is the same reason why ships have enough slots but not enough grid/CPU to fit properly. If you don't lose your ship the economy dies. It would be like stepping into a country where the nation's economy thrives off crime. CCP is horrible at making fun, they have been proving it for the past 10 years. When a fun space MMO comes out I'd say about 50-100k EVE subs will unsub. the rest of the 350-400k subs will stay and enjoy their sandbox.
Jealousy Asques The Seventh Circle 23	Posted - 2013.01.31 05:37:00 - [42] - Quote FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: silens vesica wrote: FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: TL;DR: Abandon the no-risk PVP mentality and go after your targets. Translation: Abandon combat and go jousting. BTW: Not claiming that Jousting is non-risk - people died in jousts very regulary. It just wasn't combat. It was violent sport. No, not jousting. Notice I didn't say "don't blob". I never mentioned honorable combat. This isn't two guys barreling at each other under presumably equal circumstances. I'm saying that the people who engage in those activities need to get out of their comfort zones and live a little. I spend the majority of my time at war with a half-dozen corps and alliances in highsec. I hunt my targets, running 20+ jumps to get a kill, exposing myself to ambushes and counter attacks every moment I'm active. I've watched hunter fleets start into a long warp and then ganked the last one off the gate, then led the rest of their fleet on a chase until I was able to single another one out. I've hunted targets while being hunted by mercenaries, avoiding their attempted traps and continuing to kill the corporation they were hired to protect. That is FAR more of a rush than "we sat on a gate and shot all the lone ships that came through and then warped off when a gang showed up on gate that could beat us". Risk is what makes Eve exciting. This is a much more exciting type of combat... And no hot drops, imagine that.
Aza Ebanu Crunchy Crunchy Peregrine Nation 9	Posted - 2013.01.31 05:38:00 - [43] - Quote silens vesica wrote: FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: TL;DR: Abandon the no-risk PVP mentality and go after your targets. Translation: Abandon combat and go jousting. BTW: Not claiming that Jousting is non-risk - people died in jousts very regulary. It just wasn't combat. It was violent sport. Yes and jousting was a game just like EVE fools people into believing. But in its essence it is a dark alley simulator.
Jealousy Asques The Seventh Circle 23	Posted - 2013.01.31 06:16:00 - [44] - Quote Revman Zim wrote: Looking at the kill that supposedly started this thread, I am going to guess that it was a Black Ops fleet drop. Having participated in those fleets in the past, I can say that they are not easy. You have to scout a system and find a target. That target has to be STUPID enough to stay in one spot (even though our scout shows in local) long enough for the scout to decloak, pop a cyno and for all of us to jump in, point, scram, kill and GTFO before the calvary is called. Skill intensive, nerve wracking, long waits for small rewards, exhilirating when it works out. But the key is the target has to be STUPID. P.S. You were killed in NULLSEC. There is this place with rainbows, unicorns and NO CYNO's.. it is called HISEC. If by stupid you mean failed to get to warp in the 2 seconds it took for the hot dropper to decloak and scram me then ya... I'm stupid. I could have been a bit faster, but not much. Or maybe I was stupid for not immediately docking up the second I noticed a random name in local. I waited maybe 10 secs, the time it took me to run the name though my the kos checker, which is neccessary because eve can't handle enough corps/players in the actual in game standings settings. If I docked up immediately anyone came into local, I might survive, but I'd have even less fun than I did dying to a hot drop, and I'd get nothing done. I'll never join another nrds corp, never thought it was a good idea. But they have a right to play the way they do. It might be viable if the game didnt have the limitations it does, but probably not. I'm pretty sure that a separate non-kos neutral scanned me down before the kos hot dropper arrived in local, because he was at the belt in less than 5 secs. I had been at that belt less than a couple minutes, killing rats. Regardless of all that, it doesnt change the fact that the hot dropping could still be done without neutrals. This brings up a separate issue. There are plenty of nullsec systems in the alliance the corp i was in at the time that ALWAYS have a known hot dropper in local. Replicator alone had ships in 5-6 systems I knew about, but it wasn't him this time. They can just sit there cloaked up and afk for weeks on end, scanning till they find a good target, and nobody can scan them down. Should my corp have abandoned those systems? After all it is stupid not to dock up with a known hot dropper in system. That sounds fun. The large alliance I was in didnt have the means or motivation to try and bait the hot droppers with a hot drop of their own. So maybe it's my alliance's fault? I can't blame them. There's hot droppers everywhere all the time and sitting and waiting/baiting would be almost as much fun as gate camping, and you'd still never know what was coming in. So many broken systems in this game, but those that use them for nearly risk free "pvp" will defend them untill the day they or the game dies. As far as rainbows and hisec pvp, I do enjoy that and wardecs alot more, but few corps actively pursue it and instead hide in null when they are wardeced. Truth is most of the game is full of chickenshits, on both sides of the hot dropping thing. And you've got to be kidding me about hot dropping not being easy. If it wasnt easy for you, you seriously must be mentally lacking. I'm sure its much easier in nrds null where you can use neutral alts to scan down victims, but even elsewhere... Not hard.
Mag's the united Negative Ten. 13884	Posted - 2013.01.31 06:19:00 - [45] - Quote People fight in ways others don't like, in a sandbox. News at 10. Vote for Malcanis CSM8
Revman Zim Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda 81	Posted - 2013.01.31 06:23:00 - [46] - Quote Jealousy Asques wrote: Revman Zim wrote: Looking at the kill that supposedly started this thread, I am going to guess that it was a Black Ops fleet drop. Having participated in those fleets in the past, I can say that they are not easy. You have to scout a system and find a target. That target has to be STUPID enough to stay in one spot (even though our scout shows in local) long enough for the scout to decloak, pop a cyno and for all of us to jump in, point, scram, kill and GTFO before the calvary is called. Skill intensive, nerve wracking, long waits for small rewards, exhilirating when it works out. But the key is the target has to be STUPID. P.S. You were killed in NULLSEC. There is this place with rainbows, unicorns and NO CYNO's.. it is called HISEC. If by stupid you mean failed to get to warp in the 2 seconds it took for the hot dropper to decloak and scram me then ya... I'm stupid. I could have been a bit faster, but not much. Or maybe I was stupid for not immediately docking up the second I noticed a random name in local. I waited maybe 10 secs, the time it took me to run the name though my the kos checker, which is neccessary because eve can't handle enough corps/players in the actual in game standings settings. If I docked up immediately anyone came into local, I might survive, but I'd have even less fun than I did dying to a hot drop, and I'd get nothing done. I'll never join another nrds corp, never thought it was a good idea. But they have a right to play the way they do. It might be viable if the game didnt have the limitations it does, but probably not. I'm pretty sure that a separate non-kos neutral scanned me down before the kos hot dropper arrived in local, because he was at the belt in less than 5 secs. I had been at that belt less than a couple minutes, killing rats. Regardless of all that, it doesnt change the fact that the hot dropping could still be done without neutrals. This brings up a separate issue. There are plenty of nullsec systems in the alliance the corp i was in at the time that ALWAYS have a known hot dropper in local. Replicator alone had ships in 5-6 systems I knew about, but it wasn't him this time. They can just sit there cloaked up and afk for weeks on end, scanning till they find a good target, and nobody can scan them down. Cloaking should not be as effective as it is. Should my corp have abandoned those systems? After all it is stupid not to dock up with a known hot dropper in system. That sounds fun, I'll sit in dock all day. The large alliance I was in didnt have the means or motivation to try and bait the hot droppers with a hot drop of their own. So maybe it's my alliance's fault? I can't blame them. There's hot droppers everywhere all the time and sitting and waiting/baiting would be almost as much fun as gate camping, and you'd still never know what was coming in. So many broken systems in this game, but those that use them for nearly risk free "pvp" will defend them untill the day they or the game dies. As far as rainbows and hisec pvp, I do enjoy that and wardecs alot more, but few corps actively pursue it and instead hide in null when they are wardeced. Truth is most of the game is full of chickenshits, on both sides of the hot dropping thing. And you've got to be kidding me about hot dropping not being easy. If it wasnt easy for you, you seriously must be mentally lacking. I'm sure its much easier in nrds null where you can use neutral alts to scan down victims, but even elsewhere... Not hard. You mad bro? Yeah... he mad. P.S. Get out of NULL, you don't belong. HTFU. Get a bunch of friends... Oh, never mind.
Jealousy Asques The Seventh Circle 23	Posted - 2013.01.31 06:27:00 - [47] - Quote Mag's wrote: People fight in ways others don't like, in a sandbox. News at 10. I'll once again refer you to my death star analogy. Its not about "how people fight", its about a mechanic that I think is in need of a tweak. The line has to be drawn somewhere, and I think it should be further back.
Jealousy Asques The Seventh Circle 23	Posted - 2013.01.31 06:36:00 - [48] - Quote Revman Zim wrote: You mad bro? Yeah... he mad. P.S. Get out of NULL, you don't belong. HTFU. Get a bunch of friends... Oh, never mind. It was quite a while ago that I got hot dropped, I'm not mad. Go ahead and defend a lame game mechanic. Dropping 30 ships on a single victim is probably the only way you can kill anything. I understand. I'd enjoy it too. The difference is I'm not so hungry for cheesy kills that I'll stick up for a mechanic that will drive away more players than it attracts. Hot dropping is only one issue... but combined with overpowered cloaking, boring gatecamps, and a few other things it makes nullsec pvp pretty f'n stupid.
Morganta Peripheral Madness 1824	Posted - 2013.01.31 07:03:00 - [49] - Quote lets see... I want to shoot people, where do I go? well there's always people at gates and stations but thats lame according to you... well I guess there's always trying to catch miners and mission runners... hmm.. wow.. it just occurred to me, there's only like 4-5 places where you can actually find people to fight with in eve no wonder people camp choke and transit points really, crying about gate camps is crying about the core of the game, consider a different game and fyi if you couldn't camp gates you would get a ton more hotdrops and blops its called the element of surprise, its one of the best way to happy victory according to some long dead Chinese guy "You were the chosen one Anakin, you were supposed to bring order to the galaxy, not destroy it!" -Obi Wan (Ben) Kenobi -á
Mag's the united Negative Ten. 13885	Posted - 2013.01.31 07:09:00 - [50] - Quote Jealousy Asques wrote: Mag's wrote: People fight in ways others don't like, in a sandbox. News at 10. I'll once again refer you to my death star analogy. Its not about "how people fight", its about a mechanic that I think is in need of a tweak. The line has to be drawn somewhere, and I think it should be further back. But it is how people fight. Many simply do not want to use the tools CCP provide, to mitigate the risk. Or accept sh*t happens in a sandbox. While there may be an argument for changes to cyno mechanics, gate camps are easily avoidable. But calling either 'lame' shows an unwillingness to adapt. Vote for Malcanis CSM8

Sab Sab Five Purging Maelstrom 8	Posted - 2013.01.31 07:10:00 - [51] - Quote Quote: the game feels more like a bunch of narrow hallways and bottlenecks rather than deep space. There must be. In every game that involves PvP there will be a camp of some kind. Be it near valuables, at zone entrances, or at "spawn" points. This enables players to "get the jump" on those coming to those locations. It makes sense for a fleet to wait for their enemy on the gate, otherwise because of the nature of deep space, they would never find them. The gates are places in which people must travel. CCP has graciously awarded us a battlefield on grid and mechanics that support how it is used. That being said, i kinda like the idea that having high standings (why not say 8) with a company would grant you access to their private jump gate, which would take you to another private jump gate in some (possibly traditional or maybe new) neighboring system. Maybe one day they will add a nifty sneak attack feature, or more entrance points... but its not that bad now. while some systems are always gate camped, reading a map and being careful are the name of the game. Sometimes you just can't get away. Head shot, down and out. That is when you tip your cap, because that is how world PvP is.
terzho StarFleet Enterprises Red Alliance 125	Posted - 2013.01.31 07:33:00 - [52] - Quote Just cause you're on the receiving end.............
Eugene Kerner TunDraGon 543	Posted - 2013.01.31 07:46:00 - [53] - Quote 1st.: Gate camping has nothing to do with pvp...it is like belt ratting...it earns isk. 2nd.: I agree, hot dropping in broken...but as long as it works we are going to continue with it. "Also, your boobs " -á CCP Eterne, 2012
SMT008 Wormholers Anonymous Transmission Lost 505	Posted - 2013.01.31 08:27:00 - [54] - Quote Get a scout. Alternatively, Get a scout AND check your targets' evekill. It tells you if they hotdrop or not, most of the time.
Seleia O'Sinnor Drop of Honey 304	Posted - 2013.01.31 08:35:00 - [55] - Quote Is there other PvP than choke point sitting and pos/station bashing? New inventory: Getting better since version 1.2, but what about back and forward buttons?
Darius Brinn Iberians Iberians. 193	Posted - 2013.01.31 09:01:00 - [56] - Quote Jealousy Asques wrote: [ I'm sure the hot droppers think its great fun, in fact that was what I was hoping to get into because it just seemed the way to go. Foolproof and fun! But I don't think it's good for the game. It's too easy. You are right. It's too easy because the victim (AKA "you"): -Didn't have friends. -Had a PvE fit (not that it would have mattered) -Are saying you "was hoping to get into it", which makes absolutely no goddamn sense at all. Hotdrops are far from foolproof. We are constantly killing bait cynos, knowing they are cynos. Sometimes we get hotdropped, but it's far from foolproof. The "fool" factor in EvE is very important.
Eisen Kern Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2013.01.31 09:27:00 - [57] - Quote Too much talk on effectiveness, the problem is the fun factor. Gate camps (I haven't been hot dropped) are not fun, for the camper or campee. People do it because that's how it needs to be done as is - I get that. It shouldn't be how it needs to be done to get some action. If CCP can remove the common gate camp and leave the essential territory control choke points whilst ensuring similar or more fights, everyone wins. It should be doable. Not proposing any solutions - anything off the cuff will have plenty of (easily filled) holes that will be pointed out repeatedly by people that can't think something through two steps, as has already been done in this thread.
HVAC Repairman GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 383	Posted - 2013.01.31 09:33:00 - [58] - Quote "LIFE ISN'T FAIR" - EVE Online Player Follow me on twitter
DrunkenNinja The Milkmen Test Alliance Please Ignore 98	Posted - 2013.01.31 09:46:00 - [59] - Quote I agree with you on some points OP. The game is definately still amazing and fun, but over emphasis on gatecamps and the abundancy of "hotdrops" and other mechanics could use a tweak.
Rordan D'Kherr Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 418	Posted - 2013.01.31 10:00:00 - [60] - Quote Unfair / lame / imbalanced pvp gameplay is the essence and challenge of this game. _______________________________________ Don't be scared, because being afk is not a crime.

Zack Korth Poked 229	Posted - 2013.01.31 10:20:00 - [61] - Quote Mag's wrote: People fight in ways others don't like, in a sandbox. News at 10. you dont say?
Chenlab Delta Wise Guys Tribal Band 10	Posted - 2013.01.31 10:23:00 - [62] - Quote Camping is great, so many people not using scouts thinking they can mosey on around. Hot drops are great whether you taking part or on the receiving end. No need to change either...
silens vesica Corsair Cartel 479	Posted - 2013.01.31 11:59:00 - [63] - Quote FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: silens vesica wrote: FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: TL;DR: Abandon the no-risk PVP mentality and go after your targets. Translation: Abandon combat and go jousting. BTW: Not claiming that Jousting is non-risk - people died in jousts very regulary. It just wasn't combat. It was violent sport. No, not jousting. Notice I didn't say "don't blob". I never mentioned honorable combat. This isn't two guys barreling at each other under presumably equal circumstances. I'm saying that the people who engage in those activities need to get out of their comfort zones and live a little. I spend the majority of my time at war with a half-dozen corps and alliances in highsec. I hunt my targets, running 20+ jumps to get a kill, exposing myself to ambushes and counter attacks every moment I'm active. I've watched hunter fleets start into a long warp and then ganked the last one off the gate, then led the rest of their fleet on a chase until I was able to single another one out. I've hunted targets while being hunted by mercenaries, avoiding their attempted traps and continuing to kill the corporation they were hired to protect. That is FAR more of a rush than "we sat on a gate and shot all the lone ships that came through and then warped off when a gang showed up on gate that could beat us". Risk is what makes Eve exciting. You play a different game, then. Which is fine. But calling on others to play like you like, instead of as they like is pointless, and misses the whole idea of 'sandbox' - we all in the same universe, but we each get to play as we like. You get an adrenaline thrill from runnning the gauntlet. Others get a thrill in the stalk, the setup, the leap and kill. Either way works - trying to force the others into your corner of the sandbox won't work though. Real-wrold anology: You play like torpedo boat (PT Boats or Z-Boats). I, and others like me, play like submarine wolfpacks or Q-ship raiders. Still others play choke-point warfare, or patrol warfare. They all work, one is not another, all have their place. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing. Malcanis for CSM8
silens vesica Corsair Cartel 480	Posted - 2013.01.31 12:25:00 - [64] - Quote Eisen Kern wrote: Too much talk on effectiveness, the problem is the fun factor. Gate camps (I haven't been hot dropped) are not fun, for the camper or campee. Speak for yourself. I run gates regualrly. The camp is what makes it fun (unless the camp is badly-run. Many are). Running a tough gauntlet run by deadly foes is a challenge. Beating one is a thrill. The tighter the camp, the more fun. I'll go out not looking for a kill, but looking to basically swing on the gate camp monkey bars and giggle at the folks as what set them up. I've been hot-dropped only once, but I beat the drop, too - They wasted all that fuel, and I boogied on out of there, trollolololing in local the whole way. Unlike folks who whinge or won't adapt, I've turned camps and the (singular) drop on their heads - I use them as playground toys to increase my fun. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing. Malcanis for CSM8
Thutmose I Paxton Industries Gentlemen's Agreement 10	Posted - 2013.01.31 12:34:00 - [65] - Quote Last time I checked, there already is a mass limit to how many ships you can send through a bridge with a titan/blops, it is based on how much fuel they have, and the mass of the ships bridged, besides that, it is based on the max number of players in a fleet, the only way to circumvent this is to have the cyno/titan keep swapping fleets. These limits people keep asking for do exist, they are just currently set quite high (exception of blops which will shortly be buffed to be able to bridge a decent number of ships)
Buhhdust Princess Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships. 439	Posted - 2013.01.31 12:37:00 - [66] - Quote 1. Hotdrops are easy to avoid, there's a huge time difference between cyno up to things jumping in. IF u dont like getting hotdropped, run from cynos. 2. Gate camps are gate camps. Generally slow, kinda dumb people trying to catch a straggler on a gate. Use a scout (that can be a 1 day alt in a velator!) 3. That brutix fit is terrible, you should play WoW.
Kane Alvo Coronis Corporation 7	Posted - 2013.01.31 12:42:00 - [67] - Quote PvP in Eve isn't any different than any other MMO I've ever played: 1) Superior numbers. If they bring 3 guys, you bring 20. 2) More firepower. If they bring a knife, you bring an AR-15 w/ ACOG scope and grenade launcher. 3) Kill newbies for lulz and target practice. 4) In the rare instance that it's an equal opponent...eye gouge, groin kick, bite, and scratch. 5) If you're outmatched, run like a sissy. 6) Talk smack. Talk even more smack on the forums. Internet badasses are cool. 7) 1vs1 is for chumps. 8) Feast on enemy tears. There is no honor among thieves, and MMO PvP is no different. You need to take every advantage, because rest assured that you opponent will be. If you're trolling around looking for 1vs1 "fair" duels, at least a dozen other PvPers are going to kick you in the nuts, kill you, then spit on your grave before you find one.
Ra Jackson CRIMINALS IN ACTION Pure Madness. 152	Posted - 2013.01.31 12:47:00 - [68] - Quote So you're saying that a group with 30 people and a titan online should not beat one single player? How is that fair?
Random Majere Epsilon Lyr Nulli Secunda 58	Posted - 2013.01.31 13:18:00 - [69] - Quote Gate camps will be gone the day inter-system travel will be introduced. But this being said, many features will need to be tweaked and introduced as well. Here are a few things CCP could do: - All ships could have a second "improved" warp system (transwarp drive) that can only be used for inter-system travel (because of some natural phenomena). This would eleminate the need to do multiple warps because you ran-out of cap. These trans-systems warps should not take to much time. - Make it possible to be able to warp to a ship that gets into your dscan range. If the detected ship is in warp, why not even be able to follow it in warp so you can land exactly where it will be landing. You could even introduce a way to simply take ships out of warp. Interceptors would be great at this. Covert-ops ships warp signatures could be detected at the last second (give the rabbit a chance guys!!) - Make it possible for the prey to be automaticly alerted about possible hostile ships that are about to land on their grid. (Lets give the prey at least a chance to run a bit!!) Anyways, this is just a few things to make the cats & mouse chases more dynamic and fun. Not perfect but they could make the game interesting. If gate camps are to eventually be removed, it should still be possible to catch prey. As for hot-drops...maybe the wolves will love chasing rabbits so much that it will lower this sort of activity.
Gillia Winddancer Shiny Noble Crown Services 304	Posted - 2013.01.31 13:28:00 - [70] - Quote Random Majere wrote: Gate camps will be gone the day inter-system travel will be introduced. But this being said, many features will need to be tweaked and introduced as well. Here are a few things CCP could do: - All ships could have a second "improved" warp system (transwarp drive) that can only be used for inter-system travel (because of some natural phenomena). This would eleminate the need to do multiple warps because you ran-out of cap. These trans-systems warps should not take to much time. - Make it possible to be able to warp to a ship that gets into your dscan range. If the detected ship is in warp, why not even be able to follow it in warp so you can land exactly where it will be landing. You could even introduce a way to simply take ships out of warp. Interceptors would be great at this. Covert-ops ships warp signatures could be detected at the last second (give the rabbit a chance guys!!) - Make it possible for the prey to be automaticly alerted about possible hostile ships that are about to land on their grid. (Lets give the prey at least a chance to run a bit!!) Anyways, this is just a few things to make the cats & mouse chases more dynamic and fun. Not perfect but they could make the game interesting. If gate camps are to eventually be removed, it should still be possible to catch prey. As for hot-drops...maybe the wolves will love chasing rabbits so much that it will lower this sort of activity. Now now...don't barge in too much into my territory No, but seriously, your mindset is definitely on the right track here. Your only real challenge is to convince these boxed in minds who are so integrated to the current and outdated system that separation would cause instant death.

Ptraci 3 R Corporation The Irukandji 1208	Posted - 2013.01.31 13:28:00 - [71] - Quote I think OP is only complaining because he doesn't have any friend who owns a titan otherwise he'd see hot-drops completely differently. Oh by the way, you don't HAVE to take the bait.
Tetsel Heretic Army Atrocitas 61	Posted - 2013.01.31 13:49:00 - [72] - Quote Not posting in an "OP is butthurt" thread. Twitter:-á-á-á-á@EVE_Tetsel-á-á-á@HereticArmy
Sergeant Acht Scultz School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 525	Posted - 2013.01.31 15:10:00 - [73] - Quote Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: Jealousy Asques wrote: Imo jumpgates should be done away with entirely except for possibly jumping from region to region. If you are crying this much over gatecamps...i cant image the tsunami of tears that will pour from you when you need to MWD from system to system...or better yet, have the miserable experience of capdrain warp after capdrain warp for 3 hours to get to a next door system. Just because system jump traveling in Eve is terrible as it is with free graveyard camping gates, doesn't mean if you should do it differently you had to do it as terribly as you can only see it. Many other proposals and ideas have already been shared with players and CCP and clearly the most terrible of them is still better than yours. Be creative and you'll figure out there are better ideas for traveling than gates and wouldn't change much to conflict or ships destruction, just give the false impression of safe traveling instead of true sensation of graveyard camping like any gate can be now. Gò¡Gê¬Gò«n+ên+¦n++n+¦n+ëGò¡Gê¬Gò«-á don't haten++
Xuse Senna Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships. 642	Posted - 2013.01.31 15:12:00 - [74] - Quote We're Sorry http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/7501/mindgamesceptionfinaldr.jpg My Corp is Very n00b Friendly, Ask for Buhhdust Princess Apply today No SP LIMIT! http://www.voicesfromthevoid.net/?s=Buhhdust+Princess
Natsett Amuinn GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1731	Posted - 2013.01.31 15:21:00 - [75] - Quote "I tried to go to low alone, and got shot at a gate" "I tried to roam null alone, and got hotdropped" Stop being a bad.
Wodensun ZeroSec 26	Posted - 2013.01.31 15:28:00 - [76] - Quote Cyno's in Hot Dropping this thread to inform you that Black ops are being buffed. Enjoy your continued and improved hotdrops now with more falcon and cheese! Cyno's out
Din Chao 134	Posted - 2013.01.31 15:31:00 - [77] - Quote Jealousy Asques wrote: How else does any (other than very large established) corp compete with a hot dropper that drops 20-40 ships on one noob farming belt rats? Happens all the time. And then poof they are gone before anyone even knows what happened. Pay attention to local and don't rat in belts.
Subdolus Venator State War Academy Caldari State 60	Posted - 2013.01.31 15:34:00 - [78] - Quote Natsett Amuinn wrote: "I tried to go to low alone, and got shot at a gate" "I tried to roam null alone, and got hotdropped" Stop being a bad. Srsly. I roam Lo and Nul at-will. I beat gatecamps for faeces and grins and giggles. I do donuts around Sov structures in VFK. I eject garbage on outpost undock perimeters. I troll the hotdroppers and campers mercilessly. I live in Nul, bcause it's that's where the fun is. Sometimes I die in fires. More often, I do not. And I do it all solo. It is not hard. EVE is EVE - Feaces will eventuate.
Natsett Amuinn GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1732	Posted - 2013.01.31 15:43:00 - [79] - Quote Din Chao wrote: Jealousy Asques wrote: How else does any (other than very large established) corp compete with a hot dropper that drops 20-40 ships on one noob farming belt rats? Happens all the time. And then poof they are gone before anyone even knows what happened. Pay attention to local and don't rat in belts. You didn't point out the NOOB farming belt rats getting hotdropped. The noob who was obviously in null, and who was obviously alone. The noob. WTF does a new player need to be able to rat in null belts alone for? By all means, if you have the balls and the head to do it, do so. Don't come to the forum crying that you flew into someone elses space, started picking off someone elses potential income, and then got hotdropped by the peopel that live there. What is with all the horrible gamers today? When I was growing up games were kind of tough, they didn't have saves, and usually when you died you started back at the beginning. When I wasn't playing video games I was outside playing sports, because I was a typical boy that enjoyed competition. When I played sports, we kept score. Someone won, and someone lost. It's like I'm living in a culture now that doesn't want to keep score, and doesn't any difficulty. Everyting nice and neat on a plate, and handed to me. It's like I'm playing a game with a bunch of guys that grew up playing dollies, and who's parents put them in little league teams that didn't keep score and gave every kid a trophy. It's firgging sad.
Natsett Amuinn GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1732	Posted - 2013.01.31 15:45:00 - [80] - Quote Subdolus Venator wrote: Natsett Amuinn wrote: "I tried to go to low alone, and got shot at a gate" "I tried to roam null alone, and got hotdropped" Stop being a bad. Srsly. I roam Lo and Nul at-will. I beat gatecamps for faeces and grins and giggles. I do donuts around Sov structures in VFK. I eject garbage on outpost undock perimeters. I troll the hotdroppers and campers mercilessly. I live in Nul, bcause it's that's where the fun is. Sometimes I die in fires. More often, I do not. And I do it all solo. It is not hard. Hey, get yourself blown up 1000 times doing that. As long as you're not crying that the you got caught on a gate, or we ran a 40 man gangbang on you outside of VFK, you're being a good.

Subdolus Venator State War Academy Caldari State 61	Posted - 2013.01.31 15:55:00 - [81] - Quote Natsett Amuinn wrote: Subdolus Venator wrote: Natsett Amuinn wrote: "I tried to go to low alone, and got shot at a gate" "I tried to roam null alone, and got hotdropped" Stop being a bad. Srsly. I roam Lo and Nul at-will. I beat gatecamps for faeces and grins and giggles. I do donuts around Sov structures in VFK. I eject garbage on outpost undock perimeters. I troll the hotdroppers and campers mercilessly. I live in Nul, bcause it's that's where the fun is. Sometimes I die in fires. More often, I do not. And I do it all solo. It is not hard. Hey, get yourself blown up 1000 times doing that. As long as you're not crying that the you got caught on a gate, or we ran a 40 man gangbang on you outside of VFK, you're being a good. Haven't reached 100 yet, I don't think. Or maybe I have - I forget. Because I don't much care. Someday I'll hit the 1000 mark... and I'll probably miss it when it happens. I'm there for the challenge; getting popped is just part of teh game. It'd be no fun at all if there wasn't some risk of losing - the better the camp, the better the fun. Truthfully, I first went out into dangerous space to get over my fear of being popped and podded. I discovered that I was getting good at beating camps, and it became fun. Then it became a way of life. EVE is EVE - Feaces will eventuate.
Karrl Tian Exiled Assassins Equestria Alliance 172	Posted - 2013.01.31 15:56:00 - [82] - Quote Natsett Amuinn wrote: [ When I was growing up games were kind of tough, they didn't have saves, and usually when you died you started back at the beginning. When I wasn't playing video games I was outside playing sports, because I was a typical boy that enjoyed competition. When I played sports, we kept score. Someone won, and someone lost. It's like I'm living in a culture now that doesn't want to keep score, and doesn't any difficulty. Everyting nice and neat on a plate, and handed to me. It's like I'm playing a game with a bunch of guys that grew up playing dollies, and who's parents put them in little league teams that didn't keep score and gave every kid a trophy. It's firgging sad. Pac-man was brutal, moreso than EVE imo, yet nobody ever complained about the ghosts ganking you 4v1. Playing outside of highsec reminds of Pac-man, actually, you sneak/run around to grab the fruit/dots while avoiding gang chasing you. And then, when you have the means to hurt them, all the baddies start running away.
Gritz1 Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance 154	Posted - 2013.01.31 16:14:00 - [83] - Quote You know what happens when my small alliance and friends get hot dropped and pwndozered? we run and get battleship and go back in an attempt to kill a carrier. Embrace the hot drop, it makes pvp pretty god damn interesting some times.
Din Chao 134	Posted - 2013.01.31 16:30:00 - [84] - Quote Karrl Tian wrote: Pac-man was brutal, moreso than EVE imo, yet nobody ever complained about the ghosts ganking you 4v1. Playing outside of highsec reminds of Pac-man, actually, you sneak/run around to grab the fruit/dots while avoiding gang chasing you. And then, when you have the means to hurt them, all the baddies start running away. I never got past level 2 of Donkey Kong Jr...
Gathrn Manathey Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 7	Posted - 2013.01.31 16:38:00 - [85] - Quote I like this thread! It's the first one that I have read so far that basically says "Don't give us more options, we like it just the way it is!" So for everyone who is arguing here against the OP, they are saying that gate camping and hot dropping should be the only options? "It is what it is, it works for us so learn to use it and stop crying about it" should be the motto? Personally I would love to see the battles over resources instead of gate camps, security rateing actually mean how much the area is patrolled by NPC fleets (would make gate camping more interesting in low sec if Concord came through busting a gate camp every now and then) and hot dropping... I don't know. How do you make hot dropping more fun? I can live with the game however it is, and will play or unsub based solely on how much fun I can have with the mechanics of the game. That said, I am all for more options to have fun. My 2 cents.
Natsett Amuinn GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1734	Posted - 2013.01.31 17:38:00 - [86] - Quote Gathrn Manathey wrote: I like this thread! It's the first one that I have read so far that basically says "Don't give us more options, we like it just the way it is!" So for everyone who is arguing here against the OP, they are saying that gate camping and hot dropping should be the only options? "It is what it is, it works for us so learn to use it and stop crying about it" should be the motto? Personally I would love to see the battles over resources instead of gate camps, security rateing actually mean how much the area is patrolled by NPC fleets (would make gate camping more interesting in low sec if Concord came through busting a gate camp every now and then) and hot dropping... I don't know. How do you make hot dropping more fun? I can live with the game however it is, and will play or unsub based solely on how much fun I can have with the mechanics of the game. That said, I am all for more options to have fun. My 2 cents. I love you guys. The fact that so many of you can read, and not understand a word of what you read, is amazing to me. How often do you forget to put pants on before you leave the house? You didn't even understand the OP wasn't asking for "more" options, they want gate camps and hotdrops removed. And no one is saying no to more options, they're saying the OP is a tool. Apparently you are too. Edit: Why don't you tell us all how awful it is for you to get hotdropped in high sec, Mr. NPC corp dude.
Commander Ted Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance 456	Posted - 2013.01.31 17:41:00 - [87] - Quote Join faction warfare. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
Annihilious Caldari Provisions Caldari State 16	Posted - 2013.01.31 18:06:00 - [88] - Quote I refuse to dock up just to avoid getting killed/hotdrop, etc... Losing ships is part of EVE...
Karl Planck Heretic Army Atrocitas 310	Posted - 2013.01.31 20:52:00 - [89] - Quote TL;DR: gatecamp beats solo/small gang. Hotdrop beats gatecamp. solo small gang beats hotdrop. Rock paper scissors Interesting thread and responses. Lots of people cry over one side or the other, and the severity of both hotdropping and gatecamping depends on where you go. In general these activities are well accepted methods to drawing successful (minimal risks) from targets which would be nearly impossible to engage without such mechanics. People going through gates and getting caught would have ran if they saw the size of the force that was hunting. There is a formiddable counter to this camping, called the hotdrop. Its amusing that the two got rolled together as a the same problem. A gatecamp fleet is not typically fit for facing equal numbers, which is why most will bail when threatened (and i can tell you from expereince if you leave from a camp and immediately reship for a fight that the initial gang will bail 99% of the time unless you do some magic). The counter to dropping can be one of two things. The first is baiting the bait (knowing they will cyno and preparing for it). The other is SMALL gang/solo action where you are mobile enough that a) their tackle wont hold you while the rest of the crew cyno's in or b) you're mobile enough that the chances of a bait even running into you are limited. Then again those solo pilots, having scarce target selection and needing to be mobile have the risk of running into...CAMPS And tada, welcome to the rock paper scissors balancing style of eve. If you're a bear or bearing it up, suck it up, its going to happenen eventually by any one of the three methods i mentioned earlier. Proud CEO of Heretic Army and loyal servent to Mother Amamake. COME AT ME BRO! Forums: http://forum.heretic-army.biz/index.php-á Killboard: http://kb.heretic-army.biz/ Follow me on twitter @KarlPlanck
octahexx Charante Morior Invictus. 66	Posted - 2013.01.31 21:11:00 - [90] - Quote hehe i got bad news for you my friends ccp is buffing hotdrops with covops/blops. gatecamps are a valid tactic to stem the flow in and out of systems. hotdrops take alot of work and waiting...in real life its called hunting and trapping i guess thats unfair also yet it somehow took us trough the stoneage. you can counter both these tactics like everything else in eve.

Jealousy Asques The Seventh Circle 30	Posted - 2013.01.31 21:32:00 - [91] - Quote Natsett Amuinn wrote: Din Chao wrote: Jealousy Asques wrote: How else does any (other than very large established) corp compete with a hot dropper that drops 20-40 ships on one noob farming belt rats? Happens all the time. And then poof they are gone before anyone even knows what happened. Pay attention to local and don't rat in belts. You didn't point out the NOOB farming belt rats getting hotdropped. The noob who was obviously in null, and who was obviously alone. The noob. WTF does a new player need to be able to rat in null belts alone for? By all means, if you have the balls and the head to do it, do so. Don't come to the forum crying that you flew into someone elses space, started picking off someone elses potential income, and then got hotdropped by the peopel that live there. What is with all the horrible gamers today? When I was growing up games were kind of tough, they didn't have saves, and usually when you died you started back at the beginning. When I wasn't playing video games I was outside playing sports, because I was a typical boy that enjoyed competition. When I played sports, we kept score. Someone won, and someone lost. It's like I'm living in a culture now that doesn't want to keep score, and doesn't any difficulty. Everyting nice and neat on a plate, and handed to me. It's like I'm playing a game with a bunch of guys that grew up playing dollies, and who's parents put them in little league teams that didn't keep score and gave every kid a trophy. It's firgging sad. lol... whatever, you clearly havent even read most of the thread. I was in my alliance's space. The alliance is nrds thus I was vulnerable to neutrals scanning me down before the hot dropper showed in local. Thats fine, whatever, my fault for joining a nrds corp. That doesnt change the fact that pvp isnt pvp when someone can decloak and scram you in 2 secs or less, 5 secs after entering local, then take his time & bring 30 buds, and then disappear again. Thats not pvp. Its player vs broken unbeatable mechanics. I could beat these mechanics by docking up anytime anyone at all enters local, but how fun is that? I wouldnt play a game like that very long, because it wouldnt be playing, no matter how many friends I had with me it wouldnt be playing it'd be sitting in a station. Unless I traveled with a horde ever where I went, which isnt realistic, the hot droppers can ALWAYS bring 5vs1 odds or better, and we'd have no way to know. 30 people SHOULD win vs 1, no doubt, but if you're vigilant that one person should be able to have enough warning to get away, and an alliance as large as the one I was in should be able to eventually scan down cloakers that can currently afk in systems for weeks with no fear of ever getting caught. That wasnt the situation this time, I had taken the time to find a system in our territory that was one of the few that didnt have a permanent resident hot dropper. It wouldnt have mattered where I was in the system. I could have ran a bit sooner yes... but again if I did that it's all I'd be doing all day long. Not fun! I laugh at people that say "get more friends" and "war isnt fair". You're right on the fair part, but this isnt war, it's a game. If you want to have a game with nearly uncounterable tactics, eh whatever. I could certainly do the same thing they do, but I dont find 30 vs 1 fights fun, and I don't call that pvp. I guess you could call that "countering" though. The funniest thing is that people that do this kinda "pvp" think themselves somehow superior and say I dont belong in null, I'm horrible, get skills, htfu, etc... lol hilarious. I could avoid getting hot dropped, sure, but that would mean sitting all day or never traveling in packs of less than 100. Getting the jump of someone is one thing, but being able to do so while always & easily being able to pick your fight and bring 5-30x odds, thats another. And again thats not pvp, I just have to laugh at people who think it is and that they are pros for doing it.
Jealousy Asques The Seventh Circle 30	Posted - 2013.01.31 21:35:00 - [92] - Quote Natsett Amuinn wrote: Gathrn Manathey wrote: I like this thread! It's the first one that I have read so far that basically says "Don't give us more options, we like it just the way it is!" So for everyone who is arguing here against the OP, they are saying that gate camping and hot dropping should be the only options? "It is what it is, it works for us so learn to use it and stop crying about it" should be the motto? Personally I would love to see the battles over resources instead of gate camps, security rateing actually mean how much the area is patrolled by NPC fleets (would make gate camping more interesting in low sec if Concord came through busting a gate camp every now and then) and hot dropping... I don't know. How do you make hot dropping more fun? I can live with the game however it is, and will play or unsub based solely on how much fun I can have with the mechanics of the game. That said, I am all for more options to have fun. My 2 cents. I love you guys. The fact that so many of you can read, and not understand a word of what you read, is amazing to me. How often do you forget to put pants on before you leave the house? You didn't even understand the OP wasn't asking for "more" options, they want gate camps and hotdrops removed. And no one is saying no to more options, they're saying the OP is a tool. Apparently you are too. Edit: Why don't you tell us all how awful it is for you to get hotdropped in high sec, Mr. NPC corp dude. I never once said hot dropping OR gatecamping should be removed. I said tweaked.
Karl Hobb Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium 924	Posted - 2013.01.31 21:36:00 - [93] - Quote Jealousy Asques wrote: That doesnt change the fact that pvp isnt pvp when someone can decloak and scram you in 2 secs or less, 5 secs after entering local, then take his time & bring 30 buds, and then disappear again. Thats not pvp. Its player vs broken unbeatable mechanics. So what you're saying is that you're not a player? If you're not already part of a bloc, this is the best guy for CSM8.
Jealousy Asques The Seventh Circle 30	Posted - 2013.01.31 21:43:00 - [94] - Quote Buhhdust Princess wrote: 1. Hotdrops are easy to avoid, there's a huge time difference between cyno up to things jumping in. IF u dont like getting hotdropped, run from cynos. 2. Gate camps are gate camps. Generally slow, kinda dumb people trying to catch a straggler on a gate. Use a scout (that can be a 1 day alt in a velator!) 3. That brutix fit is terrible, you should play WoW. lol. That fit was for pve, and it worked great for what I was doing, and no fit other than warp stabs would have made any sort of difference. The fit is not the issue and I don't really care if you think it wasn't up to standard. You also fail to grasp that it doesnt matter how long it takes a cyno to warm up if you are scrammed. I was scrammed in about 2 secs... Such is life, I don't care much for the loss of the ship, it was a throw away, but the fact remains that the counter for hot dropping is to run and dock up, or lie in wait and "bait the bait" for days on end for a hot drop that may never happen. Simply put thats just not fun.
Jealousy Asques The Seventh Circle 30	Posted - 2013.01.31 21:46:00 - [95] - Quote Karl Hobb wrote: Jealousy Asques wrote: That doesnt change the fact that pvp isnt pvp when someone can decloak and scram you in 2 secs or less, 5 secs after entering local, then take his time & bring 30 buds, and then disappear again. Thats not pvp. Its player vs broken unbeatable mechanics. So what you're saying is that you're not a player? I guess not, because I don't call 30vs1 or docking up all the time "playing".
Mag's the united Negative Ten. 13893	Posted - 2013.01.31 21:48:00 - [96] - Quote Jealousy Asques wrote: Simply put thats just not fun. Then don't play. It's no loss, as the rest of us will carry on playing and enjoying the game. Vote for Malcanis CSM8
Karl Hobb Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium 925	Posted - 2013.01.31 21:49:00 - [97] - Quote Jealousy Asques wrote: I guess not, because I don't call 30vs1 or docking up all the time "playing". The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. If you're not already part of a bloc, this is the best guy for CSM8.
Jealousy Asques The Seventh Circle 30	Posted - 2013.01.31 21:59:00 - [98] - Quote Mag's wrote: Jealousy Asques wrote: Simply put thats just not fun. Then don't play. It's no loss, as the rest of us will carry on playing and enjoying the game. I'm happy you enjoy it. I'll continue to get a good laugh at what hot droppers call pvp. Most of the posters in this thread have gotten their feelings hurt when I claimed that what they do has no relation to skill whatsoever, and they feel they need to come here and throw insults and buff their peen. It might require some patience, but certainly not skill. Sorry to burst all yer bubbles, but it's true. Feel free to deny it, and I'll laugh more.
Mag's the united Negative Ten. 13893	Posted - 2013.01.31 22:06:00 - [99] - Quote Jealousy Asques wrote: Mag's wrote: Jealousy Asques wrote: Simply put thats just not fun. Then don't play. It's no loss, as the rest of us will carry on playing and enjoying the game. I'm happy you enjoy it. I'll continue to get a good laugh at what hot droppers call pvp. Most of the posters in this thread have gotten their feelings hurt when I claimed that what they do has no relation to skill whatsoever, and they feel they need to come here and throw insults and buff their peen. It might require some patience, but certainly not skill. Sorry to burst all yer bubbles, but it's true. Feel free to deny it, and I'll laugh more. No bubble burst here, but thanks for your concern. Just want to ask you one thing. You do know what PvP stands for, don't you? Vote for Malcanis CSM8
KrakizBad Eve Defence Force Fatal Ascension 1319	Posted - 2013.01.31 22:43:00 - [100] - Quote These are some quality tears from a non-pvp'r about how to improve pvp. www.minerbumping.com - because your tears are delicious

Grath Telkin Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 1270	Posted - 2013.01.31 23:32:00 - [101] - Quote Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote: The loss that caused this thread yeah nerf cynos that'll spite those wormhole dwellers Turns out nothing will save that fit
fukier RISE of LEGION 768	Posted - 2013.01.31 23:58:00 - [102] - Quote Grath Telkin wrote: Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote: The loss that caused this thread yeah nerf cynos that'll spite those wormhole dwellers Turns out nothing will save that fit but DOOOODE its cap stable!!! i mean thats what its all about right?! At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Fon Revedhort Monks of War Out of Sight. 964	Posted - 2013.02.01 01:24:00 - [103] - Quote FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: From least bad to worst: Hot drops: they're a legitimate combat tactic that is overused. They've replaced the roam for a lot of people: send a small group of scouts out looking for things to drop on and only jump into the fights they can win. Of course, this is somewhat balanced by their opponents potentially having a larger hotdrop on standby...but still, it's a step down from flying a fleet through space. It's as legit as saying that a Falcon counter consists of 2 other Falcons. I asked CCP Zulupark recenly about this crappy game mechanics and his reply was basically: - well, does it really happen all that often? LOL 'Overused' and 'rare' - WTF? It's either balanced or not. No middle-ground here. 14
Revman Zim Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda 82	Posted - 2013.02.01 01:36:00 - [104] - Quote So... in summation. The OP was in NULLSEC, which is designated as a PvP area in EVE online. Meaning, there is no repercussions for locking, scramming, shooting, killing or podding. There is no CONCORD for protection, no loss of security status for any actions. This OP was flying a ship that would normally be described as PvE fit, and performing PvE actions. Meaning, that she was engaging targets generated by the game, with limited AI, predictable actions and well defined offensive and defensive capabilities. The OP was engaged in PvP by other players using tools that are provided by the game for use in NULLSEC/LOWSEC space only. For the purposes of PvP. The OP was unable to counter this PvP encounter. So, the OP blames the mechanics of the game instead of looking at her actions that precipitated the event.
FloppieTheBanjoClown The Skunkworks 2562	Posted - 2013.02.01 01:42:00 - [105] - Quote Fon Revedhort wrote: FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: From least bad to worst: Hot drops: they're a legitimate combat tactic that is overused. They've replaced the roam for a lot of people: send a small group of scouts out looking for things to drop on and only jump into the fights they can win. Of course, this is somewhat balanced by their opponents potentially having a larger hotdrop on standby...but still, it's a step down from flying a fleet through space. It's as legit as saying that a Falcon counter consists of 2 other Falcons. I asked CCP Zulupark recenly about this crappy game mechanics and his reply was basically: - well, does it really happen all that often? LOL 'Overused' and 'rare' - WTF? It's either balanced or not. No middle-ground here. I'd suggest that force projection in general is too easy in Eve. One idea I put out in another thread was the idea of making cynos point-to-point connections: rather than lighting a cyno and everyone in the fleet jumping to it, you'd have two cynos lit and fleet members would have to be on-grid with one to arrive at the other. That wouldn't prevent a staged hotdrop, but it would mean that a botched drop could result in the cyno anchors being lost and the fleet stranded under fire. Would that be risky enough for you? Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Dewa Cinta Merchants Trade Consortium The Last Chancers. 17	Posted - 2013.02.01 01:52:00 - [106] - Quote +1 op
Dewa Cinta Merchants Trade Consortium The Last Chancers. 17	Posted - 2013.02.01 01:57:00 - [107] - Quote Revman Zim wrote: So... in summation. The OP was in NULLSEC, which is designated as a PvP area in EVE online. Meaning, there is no repercussions for locking, scramming, shooting, killing or podding. There is no CONCORD for protection, no loss of security status for any actions. This OP was flying a ship that would normally be described as PvE fit, and performing PvE actions. Meaning, that she was engaging targets generated by the game, with limited AI, predictable actions and well defined offensive and defensive capabilities. The OP was engaged in PvP by other players using tools that are provided by the game for use in NULLSEC/LOWSEC space only. For the purposes of PvP. The OP was unable to counter this PvP encounter. So, the OP blames the mechanics of the game instead of looking at her actions that precipitated the event. Not even. lrn to read thread.
Fon Revedhort Monks of War Out of Sight. 964	Posted - 2013.02.01 02:42:00 - [108] - Quote FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: Fon Revedhort wrote: FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: From least bad to worst: Hot drops: they're a legitimate combat tactic that is overused. They've replaced the roam for a lot of people: send a small group of scouts out looking for things to drop on and only jump into the fights they can win. Of course, this is somewhat balanced by their opponents potentially having a larger hotdrop on standby...but still, it's a step down from flying a fleet through space. It's as legit as saying that a Falcon counter consists of 2 other Falcons. I asked CCP Zulupark recenly about this crappy game mechanics and his reply was basically: - well, does it really happen all that often? LOL 'Overused' and 'rare' - WTF? It's either balanced or not. No middle-ground here. I'd suggest that force projection in general is too easy in Eve. One idea I put out in another thread was the idea of making cynos point-to-point connections: rather than lighting a cyno and everyone in the fleet jumping to it, you'd have two cynos lit and fleet members would have to be on-grid with one to arrive at the other. That wouldn't prevent a staged hotdrop, but it would mean that a botched drop could result in the cyno anchors being lost and the fleet stranded under fire. Would that be risky enough for you? Tbh, current situation is so bad that I'd be glad to see CCP start doing just anything in this regard. What I suspect is they are not even aware of the problem. Let's admit it: hot-dropping crap is mostly a problem for small-scale PvP and it's not that deadly even if your gang is of 20 (that said, it's still OP as heck). If blobbing really hard is what your PvP is all about (check out CCP's last 'event' where their fleet was of like 70) then some surely might even not understand how stupid the whole mechanics is. What is ironic though, they still needed to show up in a cyno-jammed system (incrusion) to make sure they aren't just ganked like the rest of us. Pathetic. What CCP should have done instead is some small-scale gangs (1-8 or 10 people at most) roaming around the universe under regular game rules. 14
Eisen Kern Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2013.02.01 03:18:00 - [109] - Quote silens vesica wrote: Eisen Kern wrote: Too much talk on effectiveness, the problem is the fun factor. Gate camps (I haven't been hot dropped) are not fun, for the camper or campee. Speak for yourself. This should be taken as granted, given you yourself don't say "so and so makes it fun for me." etc. Quote: Unlike folks who whinge or won't adapt, I've turned camps and the (singular) drop on their heads - I use them as playground toys to increase my fun. As you have to when it's the mechanic you have to use. However it's not as fun as it should be and it discourages more players taking risks in low sec. More players playing in low sec is a good goal. A good interim compromise (imo, to make you happy) would be to ramp up security on gates as you got closer to high sec to make it progressively harder and more risky/costly to gate camp. This is a more logical mechanic than the current "full sec", "virtually no sec", "no sec" system for two reasons - nations would want more security the closer you got to their borders, and it would encourage more gameplay types in low sec with increased risk for gate campers to go with their increased reward closer to high sec. If it needs additional mechanics to get more fights, that can be done too (ie. bribe gate guards to go away, substantial cost not worth it for low value camping but to kill something you know is coming like a high value unguarded transport) 0.4 - Enough gate security to make life painful for a substantial gate camp of BSs. 0.3 - Enough gate security to make life painful for a substantial gate camp of BCs. 0.2 - Enough gate security to make life painful for a substantial gate camp of Cruisers. 0.1 - Enough gate security to make life painful for a substantial gate camp of frigates. Also having a "there are X player ships within 100 kms of the other side of this jump gate" might be better (and modified by the bribing mechanic). Scouting is a boring/annoying mechanic. Disclaimer: basic idea, lots of holes that can be fixed, please think things through a couple of steps. etc.
Tear Miner Republic University Minmatar Republic 152	Posted - 2013.02.01 04:12:00 - [110] - Quote Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote: The loss that caused this thread yeah nerf cynos that'll spite those wormhole dwellers dat fit. maybe the op should learn to fit a ship before trying pvp.

Jealousy Asques The Seventh Circle 31	Posted - 2013.02.01 04:18:00 - [111] - Quote Mag's wrote: Just want to ask you one thing. You do know what PvP stands for, don't you? I do, I play nothing but pvp games. Do you know what pvp is? Do you know what good pvp is? I think not. I can't blame anyone for using mechanics that are in the game. Hot dropping is pvp... It's just not good pvp as it currently stands, except in very few scenarios where hot droppers do a very bad job of scouting their targets. Like I say theres always a group of people that would be very happy if they had something like an invulnerable deathstar to let them pulverize their victims with impunity, as long as it isn't done to them. With hot droppers that are always on the offensive, it almost never is going to happen to them. And the exploiters of bad mechanics ALWAYS cry foul when someone calls it what it is. In every game theres always something, gear or ships, that gives a healthy advantage to those using them. Thats fine, those that have them probably earned them... the question is where you draw the line on how powerful those items/ships are and if they can be countered. By definition, to me, any mechanic that allows people, no matter how many, to gank any target, no matter how small, and get away with zero chance of being caught, is a bad mechanic. Sitting with a covert ops fleet of your own for days/weeks on end waiting for a chance to ambush them is not in my opinion a chance to catch them. Risk free pvp is not pvp at all. Hot droppers at most risk one scout, and in nrds space they don't even risk that. Hot droppers are chickenshits, end of story. This is not "war" where anything goes, its a game with intended and unintended mechanics. Otherwise, just let everyone hack their clients and the server as best they can and have at it. All is fair. I'm not saying people are hacking but bad mechanics can produce similar effects. I see the attraction in it, don't get me wrong, I'd have fun with checkenshit tactics for a while. It's not game breaking. EVE has lots of other good features and possibilities that more than make up for it or people wouldnt be here, but there is always room for improvement in any game. Hot dropping happens to be the first thing I would change. Not remove... I realize that hot drops make it possible to catch fleets that dont want to be caught, so in some ways it is a neccessary mechanic. That is an issue though that could be handled in other ways that do not introduce as much completely one sided pvp. I also agree with another poster... gate scouting is a lame requirement made necessary because of the gate system. I'd venture to guess though that it will never be removed because it encourages a ton of people to run multiple accounts, which is potential $ for CCP. IMO though there should be a way to probe the immediate vicinity on the other side of the gate without going through, and without a 2nd noob alt account.
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3352	Posted - 2013.02.01 04:25:00 - [112] - Quote Jealousy Asques wrote: This is not "war" where anything goes, its a game with intended and unintended mechanics. What do you mean it isn't war? Insert some joke about the "future of wardecs" thread here. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm
Jealousy Asques The Seventh Circle 31	Posted - 2013.02.01 04:26:00 - [113] - Quote Tear Miner wrote: Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote: The loss that caused this thread yeah nerf cynos that'll spite those wormhole dwellers dat fit. maybe the op should learn to fit a ship before trying pvp. if you'd read the thread, you'd it know it was not a pvp fit... I pve with blasters for better dps. If you'd think for a sec, you'd realize that the fit doesnt matter, no fit other than warp stabs would have changed the scenario in the least. I'm not saying I'm pro, I am however saying you aren't very smart.
Jealousy Asques The Seventh Circle 31	Posted - 2013.02.01 04:34:00 - [114] - Quote Fon Revedhort wrote: FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: Fon Revedhort wrote: FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: From least bad to worst: Hot drops: they're a legitimate combat tactic that is overused. They've replaced the roam for a lot of people: send a small group of scouts out looking for things to drop on and only jump into the fights they can win. Of course, this is somewhat balanced by their opponents potentially having a larger hotdrop on standby...but still, it's a step down from flying a fleet through space. It's as legit as saying that a Falcon counter consists of 2 other Falcons. I asked CCP Zulupark recenly about this crappy game mechanics and his reply was basically: - well, does it really happen all that often? LOL 'Overused' and 'rare' - WTF? It's either balanced or not. No middle-ground here. I'd suggest that force projection in general is too easy in Eve. One idea I put out in another thread was the idea of making cynos point-to-point connections: rather than lighting a cyno and everyone in the fleet jumping to it, you'd have two cynos lit and fleet members would have to be on-grid with one to arrive at the other. That wouldn't prevent a staged hotdrop, but it would mean that a botched drop could result in the cyno anchors being lost and the fleet stranded under fire. Would that be risky enough for you? Tbh, current situation is so bad that I'd be glad to see CCP start doing just anything in this regard. What I suspect is they are not even aware of the problem. Let's admit it: hot-dropping crap is mostly a problem for small-scale PvP and it's not that deadly even if your gang is of 20 (that said, it's still OP as heck). If blobbing really hard is what your PvP is all about (check out CCP's last 'event' where their fleet was of like 70) then some surely might even not understand how stupid the whole mechanics is. What is ironic though, they still needed to show up in a cyno-jammed system (incrusion) to make sure they aren't just ganked like the rest of us. Pathetic. What CCP should have done instead is some small-scale gangs (1-8 or 10 people at most) roaming around the universe under regular game rules. This is the truth.
Agent Akari Just Popped Out For Milk 100	Posted - 2013.02.01 09:17:00 - [115] - Quote Well thanks to the unfair pvp, unbalanced pvp and all that. People lose ships. Which is kinda the most important element in eve. Without it the markets will crash.
Marlona Sky D00M. Northern Coalition. 3049	Posted - 2013.02.01 09:26:00 - [116] - Quote Far too many titans. Everywhere you go you are in range of some gang just chilling on a titan waiting. Back in the day if a cyno went up, it meant mostly capitals would come in. Which you could in a way get away from due to long lock times. Now if a cyno goes up, you ARE getting bridge on. With what ships? Anything and everything. Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner!
Jealousy Asques The Seventh Circle 32	Posted - 2013.02.01 11:28:00 - [117] - Quote Agent Akari wrote: Well thanks to the unfair pvp, unbalanced pvp and all that. People lose ships. Which is kinda the most important element in eve. Without it the markets will crash. If people won't fight without OP mechanics then there is more than one problem. But people can and do fight without hotdropping so... If you were right to some extent, the market would balance itself anyway.
Akirei Scytale Test Alliance Please Ignore 2975	Posted - 2013.02.01 11:42:00 - [118] - Quote Jealousy Asques wrote: How do they contribute to epic space battles, what this game should be about? Hot dropping hot droppers is how the most epic space battles happen. Its how you escalate fights, and fights escalating with no stopping point in sight are absolutely nuts, and only one word describes them adequately - epic. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance
silens vesica Corsair Cartel 488	Posted - 2013.02.01 12:09:00 - [119] - Quote Akirei Scytale wrote: Jealousy Asques wrote: How do they contribute to epic space battles, what this game should be about? Hot dropping hot droppers is how the most epic space battles happen. Its how you escalate fights, and fights escalating with no stopping point in sight are absolutely nuts, and only one word describes them adequately - epic. Because nothing like that ever happens, right? You'd never see hot-drop ambush/counter ambush escalate into something that makes even the mainstream news. Nope. Never. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing. Malcanis for CSM8
Darius Brinn Iberians Iberians. 196	Posted - 2013.02.01 12:20:00 - [120] - Quote Marlona Sky wrote: Far too many titans. Everywhere you go you are in range of some gang just chilling on a titan waiting. Back in the day if a cyno went up, it meant mostly capitals would come in. Which you could in a way get away from due to long lock times. Now if a cyno goes up, you ARE getting bridge on. With what ships? Anything and everything. I never gave excessive supercap proliferation a thought until I saw Goons living in Syndicate Titan-bridging fleets to catch a few frigates. Last Sunday they bridged a hell of a lot of people into us, and managed to kill a single Dramiel. They lost a 700 mil. Cynabal in the process (http://www.iberians.org/kb/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=31782), though. Plus the fuel, etc. And curiously enough, they also put 3 dreads, Aeon, Wyvern and Nyx next to a High Sec gate in order to destroy...anchored bubbles. http://i.imgur.com/VO7fjVs.jpg So perhaps yes. Cyno goes up, you can be sure supercap comes out. Coallitions are using 3 supercaps and 3 Dreads to destroy modules worth 5 million ISK, after all.

Subdolus Venator State War Academy Caldari State 68	Posted - 2013.02.01 13:25:00 - [121] - Quote Darius Brinn wrote: Marlona Sky wrote: Far too many titans. Everywhere you go you are in range of some gang just chilling on a titan waiting. Back in the day if a cyno went up, it meant mostly capitals would come in. Which you could in a way get away from due to long lock times. Now if a cyno goes up, you ARE getting bridge on. With what ships? Anything and everything. I never gave excessive supercap proliferation a thought until I saw Goons living in Syndicate Titan-bridging fleets to catch a few frigates. Last Sunday they bridged a hell of a lot of people into us, and managed to kill a single Dramiel. They lost a 700 mil. Cynabal in the process (http://www.iberians.org/kb/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=31782), though. Plus the fuel, etc. And curiously enough, they also put 3 dreads, Aeon, Wyvern and Nyx next to a High Sec gate in order to destroy...anchored bubbles. http://i.imgur.com/VO7fjVs.jpg So perhaps yes. Cyno goes up, you can be sure supercap comes out. Coallitions are using 3 supercaps and 3 Dreads to destroy modules worth 5 million ISK, after all. Eh. A few years back, I had a hot-drop put a bunch of 'Canes into a system to hunt down 'lil ol' me. Flying a n00bship. Come to think of it, that was the only time I've been hotdropped, but it was completely ineffectual - I saw the cyno go up, and was already on my way out when the calvary arrived to save the system from my fearsome taunting. Was much fun. If they wanna waste all that fuel, let 'em. Makes my giggles that much the better. EVE is EVE - Feaces will eventuate.
decaneos Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 33	Posted - 2013.02.01 13:43:00 - [122] - Quote One thing i agree on and have mentioned in the past is that Cynos should be limited to Mass, i fail to see why a cruiser should be able to create a cyno that enables the movement of the same amount of ships as a carriers cyno would. a solution to this would be to create cyno generators that fit for the right ship level and allows only the next size of ship to use that cyno. A example would be a cruiser would only be able to cyno ships equal to or smaller than a battleship, with a mass limit on how many could be shifted thus allowing say 5 battleships through or maybe many many cruisers, if you want to hot drop carriers and dreads then you cyno with a battleship and so on. this would lead to waves of rather than just one mass extinction event. Another thought might be that you could put in a mechanic that if a cyno is deployed that another cannot be placed in that area of say 30km till the local space has restored itself after a certain time frame. meaning the next cyno ship would have to move away from that area to get more reinforcements in. Anyone see any flaws?
Mag's the united Negative Ten. 13900	Posted - 2013.02.01 14:49:00 - [123] - Quote Jealousy Asques wrote: Mag's wrote: Just want to ask you one thing. You do know what PvP stands for, don't you? I do, I play nothing but pvp games. Do you know what pvp is? Do you know what good pvp is? I think not. I can't blame anyone for using mechanics that are in the game. Hot dropping is pvp... It's just not good pvp as it currently stands, except in very few scenarios where hot droppers do a very bad job of scouting their targets. Like I say theres always a group of people that would be very happy if they had something like an invulnerable deathstar to let them pulverize their victims with impunity, as long as it isn't done to them. With hot droppers that are always on the offensive, it almost never is going to happen to them. And the exploiters of bad mechanics ALWAYS cry foul when someone calls it what it is. In every game theres always something, gear or ships, that gives a healthy advantage to those using them. Thats fine, those that have them probably earned them... the question is where you draw the line on how powerful those items/ships are and if they can be countered. By definition, to me, any mechanic that allows people, no matter how many, to gank any target, no matter how small, and get away with zero chance of being caught, is a bad mechanic. Sitting with a covert ops fleet of your own for days/weeks on end waiting for a chance to ambush them is not in my opinion a chance to catch them. Risk free pvp is not pvp at all. Hot droppers at most risk one scout, and in nrds space they don't even risk that. Hot droppers are chickenshits, end of story. This is not "war" where anything goes, its a game with intended and unintended mechanics. Otherwise, just let everyone hack their clients and the server as best they can and have at it. All is fair. I'm not saying people are hacking but bad mechanics can produce similar effects. I see the attraction in it, don't get me wrong, I'd have fun with checkenshit tactics for a while. It's not game breaking. EVE has lots of other good features and possibilities that more than make up for it or people wouldnt be here, but there is always room for improvement in any game. Hot dropping happens to be the first thing I would change. Not remove... I realize that hot drops make it possible to catch fleets that dont want to be caught, so in some ways it is a neccessary mechanic. That is an issue though that could be handled in other ways that do not introduce as much completely one sided pvp. I also agree with another poster... gate scouting is a lame requirement made necessary because of the gate system. I'd venture to guess though that it will never be removed because it encourages a ton of people to run multiple accounts, which is potential $ for CCP. IMO though there should be a way to probe the immediate vicinity on the other side of the gate without going through, and without a 2nd noob alt account. I didn't ask for your emotional opinion, I asked if you knew what PvP stands for. Whether or not you think any version of it has E-Honour attached, is irrelevant in regards to what PvP stands for. Also PvP isn't solely limited to combat, just saying. But I already said I could see the argument for changes to the cyno mechanic. I do have a simple solution, that may work. *Idea:* We should have 3 cyno modules. 1. Limited Cyno: It can be fitted to any ship with fittings, but has the following restrictions. Jump delay of 1 minute after lighting. Ship immobile for 10 minutes during use. Any and all self destruct calls cancelled and none allowed to start once fired. Super Capital ships, are restricted from using this cyno. Plus all other restrictions already in place. 2. Regular Cyno: Can only be fitted to the Force Recon ship, with the following restrictions. Built in 1 minute delay, that is reduced by either 20% per recon level, or 10 seconds. This will end in either 10 seconds or no delay at level 5. Super capitals ships can use this cyno. All other restrictions as now. 3. Covert cyno. Remain the same as now. This will mean a far more tactical and situational use of cynos. Plus give those being dropped, the chance to pre-judge what may be coming their way. Edit: I see often, the calls for mass to be used to restrict cyno use. The only problem is, that it's so easy to over come. Jump, light repeat. large groups either light more initially, or as they jump in. Vote for Malcanis CSM8
Karrl Tian Exiled Assassins Equestria Alliance 173	Posted - 2013.02.01 15:38:00 - [124] - Quote Subdolus Venator wrote: Darius Brinn wrote: Marlona Sky wrote: Far too many titans. Everywhere you go you are in range of some gang just chilling on a titan waiting. Back in the day if a cyno went up, it meant mostly capitals would come in. Which you could in a way get away from due to long lock times. Now if a cyno goes up, you ARE getting bridge on. With what ships? Anything and everything. I never gave excessive supercap proliferation a thought until I saw Goons living in Syndicate Titan-bridging fleets to catch a few frigates. Last Sunday they bridged a hell of a lot of people into us, and managed to kill a single Dramiel. They lost a 700 mil. Cynabal in the process (http://www.iberians.org/kb/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=31782), though. Plus the fuel, etc. And curiously enough, they also put 3 dreads, Aeon, Wyvern and Nyx next to a High Sec gate in order to destroy...anchored bubbles. http://i.imgur.com/VO7fjVs.jpg So perhaps yes. Cyno goes up, you can be sure supercap comes out. Coallitions are using 3 supercaps and 3 Dreads to destroy modules worth 5 million ISK, after all. Eh. A few years back, I had a hot-drop put a bunch of 'Canes into a system to hunt down 'lil ol' me. Flying a n00bship. Come to think of it, that was the only time I've been hotdropped, but it was completely ineffectual - I saw the cyno go up, and was already on my way out when the calvary arrived to save the system from my fearsome taunting. Was much fun. If they wanna waste all that fuel, let 'em. Makes my giggles that much the better. Rich people. Who are bored. 'Nuff said.
silens vesica Corsair Cartel 489	Posted - 2013.02.01 15:42:00 - [125] - Quote decaneos wrote: One thing i agree on and have mentioned in the past is that Cynos should be limited to Mass, i fail to see why a cruiser should be able to create a cyno that enables the movement of the same amount of ships as a carriers cyno would. a solution to this would be to create cyno generators that fit for the right ship level and allows only the next size of ship to use that cyno. A example would be a cruiser would only be able to cyno ships equal to or smaller than a battleship, with a mass limit on how many could be shifted thus allowing say 5 battleships through or maybe many many cruisers, if you want to hot drop carriers and dreads then you cyno with a battleship and so on. this would lead to waves of rather than just one mass extinction event. Another thought might be that you could put in a mechanic that if a cyno is deployed that another cannot be placed in that area of say 30km till the local space has restored itself after a certain time frame. meaning the next cyno ship would have to move away from that area to get more reinforcements in. Anyone see any flaws? Interesting ideas. Don't see as those are neccessary changes, but they might make for some fascinating changes in fleet action. I 'second' these concepts. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing. Malcanis for CSM8
Subdolus Venator State War Academy Caldari State 68	Posted - 2013.02.01 15:47:00 - [126] - Quote Karrl Tian wrote: Rich people. Who are bored. 'Nuff said. Poor person. Who makes his fun any way he can, including taunting rich people and encouraging them waste cash. EVE is EVE - Feaces will eventuate.
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 2417	Posted - 2013.02.01 16:52:00 - [127] - Quote Akiyo Mayaki wrote: Many people seem to be happy with how it is, so I guess it ain't that bad. Surely the forums are indication of this happiness.
Marlona Sky D00M. Northern Coalition. 3051	Posted - 2013.02.01 17:01:00 - [128] - Quote Titan bridge fuel is practically free guys. It literally costs nothing. Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner!
Aza Ebanu Crunchy Crunchy Peregrine Nation 10	Posted - 2013.02.01 17:07:00 - [129] - Quote Chenlab Delta wrote: Camping is great, so many people not using scouts thinking they can mosey on around. Hot drops are great whether you taking part or on the receiving end. No need to change either... Yeah. I mean who wants to pay for another sub, and dual box just to play a game. Friends you say? okay if they are skilled and have a different interest than you and are online at the same time sure, but where are you gonna find that?
Subdolus Venator State War Academy Caldari State 68	Posted - 2013.02.01 17:11:00 - [130] - Quote Marlona Sky wrote: Titan bridge fuel is practically free guys. It literally costs nothing. And the n00bship that I was flying that day was better than free - It came with a whole salable unit of tritanium! Plus I got away clean, despite the drop. I win. EVE is EVE - Feaces will eventuate.

Aza Ebanu Crunchy Crunchy Peregrine Nation 10	Posted - 2013.02.01 17:14:00 - [131] - Quote Revman Zim wrote: So... in summation. The OP was in NULLSEC, which is designated as a PvP area in EVE online. Meaning, there is no repercussions for locking, scramming, shooting, killing or podding. There is no CONCORD for protection, no loss of security status for any actions. This OP was flying a ship that would normally be described as PvE fit, and performing PvE actions. Meaning, that she was engaging targets generated by the game, with limited AI, predictable actions and well defined offensive and defensive capabilities. The OP was engaged in PvP by other players using tools that are provided by the game for use in NULLSEC/LOWSEC space only. For the purposes of PvP. The OP was unable to counter this PvP encounter. So, the OP blames the mechanics of the game instead of looking at her actions that precipitated the event. No you see a large portion of PVE content is is your PVP arena. Most players want to get to that. You can blame them for bringing PVE fits to null sec. the game is designed for it.
Gluthor Black Rain Cartel 7	Posted - 2013.02.01 17:22:00 - [132] - Quote I'll Agree with the OP, the game as a whole has many many flaws when it comes to pvp mechanics Akiyo Mayaki wrote: Many people seem to be happy with how it is, so I guess it ain't that bad. The number of subscribers is proof that EVE is very flawed, if the PVP system was great, there would be several millions of players after almost 10 years.
silens vesica Corsair Cartel 489	Posted - 2013.02.01 17:23:00 - [133] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Akiyo Mayaki wrote: Many people seem to be happy with how it is, so I guess it ain't that bad. Surely the forums are indication of this happiness. The forums are a tiny, albeit noisy, minority. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing. Malcanis for CSM8
silens vesica Corsair Cartel 489	Posted - 2013.02.01 17:24:00 - [134] - Quote Gluthor wrote: I'll Agree with the OP, the game as a whole has many many flaws when it comes to pvp mechanics Akiyo Mayaki wrote: Many people seem to be happy with how it is, so I guess it ain't that bad. The number of subscribers is proof that EVE is very flawed, if the PVP system was great, there would be several millions of players after almost 10 years. Really? Based upon what provable metric? Or are you guessing? Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing. Malcanis for CSM8
Aza Ebanu Crunchy Crunchy Peregrine Nation 10	Posted - 2013.02.01 17:36:00 - [135] - Quote silens vesica wrote: Gluthor wrote: I'll Agree with the OP, the game as a whole has many many flaws when it comes to pvp mechanics Akiyo Mayaki wrote: Many people seem to be happy with how it is, so I guess it ain't that bad. The number of subscribers is proof that EVE is very flawed, if the PVP system was great, there would be several millions of players after almost 10 years. Really? Based upon what provable metric? Or are you guessing? based upon people like personal friends enjoying a game. Ask some players how many friends just wont play the game because it is boring and tedious. I mean gate/station camps exist, but wo when it is the whole game? How sad.
Lugia3 Pirates Incorporated 256	Posted - 2013.02.02 00:33:00 - [136] - Quote I camp gates solo a lot, and I'm still on my first Talos. Maybe gatecamps wouldn't be so invincible if people stopped flying through unscouted in untanked industrials all the time, without support. I can't tell you how many sigils, cruisers, and barges I have instapopped with my Talos. Even if they don't instapop, they still usually don't have support and are alone. Easy. Unsuspecting victim in a blind panic + Trigger happy ol' me with a lot of big guns = Yellow wreck, tears, and a beautiful new killmail. Then again, it's much funner and easier to do it with friends. Blob or be blobbed, and there is always a bigger blob. Give drones some love: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2176396&#post2176396
silens vesica Corsair Cartel 502	Posted - 2013.02.02 00:37:00 - [137] - Quote Aza Ebanu wrote: silens vesica wrote: Gluthor wrote: I'll Agree with the OP, the game as a whole has many many flaws when it comes to pvp mechanics Akiyo Mayaki wrote: Many people seem to be happy with how it is, so I guess it ain't that bad. The number of subscribers is proof that EVE is very flawed, if the PVP system was great, there would be several millions of players after almost 10 years. Really? Based upon what provable metric? Or are you guessing? based upon people like personal friends enjoying a game. Ask some players how many friends just wont play the game because it is boring and tedious. I mean gate/station camps exist, but wo when it is the whole game? How sad. Sounds like a bad case of anecdote with a side-helping of confirmation bias there. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing. Malcanis for CSM8
Eisen Kern Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2013.02.02 08:35:00 - [138] - Quote silens vesica wrote: Sounds like a bad case of anecdote with a side-helping of confirmation bias there. You have some hard data that refutes it? It mirrors what I've seen. There's a lot to like in Eve - some of the boring mechanics are a huge turnoff.
Kalle Demos Ironic Corp Name 154	Posted - 2013.02.02 08:41:00 - [139] - Quote Theres far too many alliances that are obsessed with their killboard stats, while I dont think gatecamps or hot dropping is an issue, if your alliance obsesses over a KB and you have a collection of members F5'ing eve-kill after that 'kill' you might want to consider leaving, its not healthy at all being that obsessed with internet stats.
Annihilious Caldari Provisions Caldari State 17	Posted - 2013.02.03 13:08:00 - [140] - Quote Natsett Amuinn wrote: It's like I'm playing a game with a bunch of guys that grew up playing dollies... Hey, don't knock the dollies man. The girls I play with sprouted bewbies at an early age...

Arduemont Tempest Legion 1187	Posted - 2013.02.03 13:47:00 - [141] - Quote Jealousy Asques wrote: Stuff about not liking hot drops. You sir, are in luck (I'm assuming your a sir). Because there is already a solution to your problem. Don't like hot drops and gate camps? Then do your PvP in highsec or in WHs. All problems resolved. This game is as varied as it is for a reason. If there is an element of PvP you don't like about a particular area of space, then move somewhere else where that element isn't present. People enjoy hot dropping, and frankly you can come out on top of being hot dropped fairly easily if your savy. Don't go asking CCP to change the space that it can happen in because there are already alternatives for you. Quit bitching, and start using your brain. "In the age of information, ignorance is a choice."
Fon Revedhort Monks of War Out of Sight. 967	Posted - 2013.02.04 17:46:00 - [142] - Quote Arduemont wrote: Jealousy Asques wrote: Stuff about not liking hot drops. You sir, are in luck (I'm assuming your a sir). Because there is already a solution to your problem. Don't like hot drops and gate camps? Then do your PvP in highsec or in WHs. All problems resolved. Did you personally use to stick to deadspace areas prohibiting MWD activation back when the game was all about nano? You must got really mad when The Great Nano Fix actually happened and made the game playable for all 14
Apoc Baltar Militaris Industries Northern Coalition. 1	Posted - 2013.02.04 18:42:00 - [143] - Quote Jealousy Asques wrote: Harry Inskipp wrote: In all the history of mankind and warfare, there have been very few occurrences of "fair" PVP. The Huns, the Mongols, the ****, the Allies, the U.S. Cavalry. The all won battles through the use of unfair tactics. Also when Seal Team 6 took out Bin Laden they did a hot drop that was incredibly unfair. So don't expect anything different in imagination-land. So... We should just introduce a new ship. A Death-Star that was designed with no exploitable vulnerabilities (stupid vader!) and can warp around the galaxy annihilating planets and fleets at will. It's just another mechanic like hot dropping, and we shouldnt limit how people play, right? You have to draw the line somewhere, and hot dropping is just too easy. At least make the cyno take longer to set up, and limit the number of ships that can come through. They could still "chain-cyno" and get just as many people there, it would just take longer, not blink* +40 ships pew pew blink empty space + debris. Have you even seen Star Wars?
Grimpak Midnight Elites Echelon Rising 721	Posted - 2013.02.04 18:54:00 - [144] - Quote DrunkenNinja wrote: I agree with you on some points OP. The game is definately still amazing and fun, but over emphasis on gatecamps and the abundancy of "hotdrops" and other mechanics could use a tweak. tweak it somehow and in a few months people would complain about something else. "fairness" and "pvp honesty" is all nice and dandy, but you people forget about how risk-adverse humans are. there will always be someone who brings a gun to the knife fight. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img] [quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Cearain Goose Swarm Coalition 826	Posted - 2013.02.04 18:57:00 - [145] - Quote Jealousy Asques wrote: I generally love pvp games, the more hardcore the better, but I've lost interest in EVE... The extent of nullsec pvp is pretty much what the title says. Hot drops as far as I'm concerned are pretty much game breaking, a very cheesy, lame and over-used tactic. The hot droppers can pick their fights for very little risk and it almost always results in one sided battles. How do they contribute to epic space battles, what this game should be about? They don't. In intermediate/newb friendly corps one hot dropper capable ship shows up in your system and everyone is told to dock up for safety. Can't risk your precious kill boards! How fun is that? It's not! At the very least there should be a limit on how much mass or the number of ships that can hot drop through one cyno field (3-4 cruisers, 2 battleships/ 1 carrier maybe at most), and they should not be able to escape by the same method (or log out for that matter) for a very long time. Hisec war-dec pvp where hotdrops can't happen is alot more fun and fair, but very few people do it. Established pirate corps & pros do it, and other intermediate corps run and hide from it. Even in hisec though pvp is largely about gate camps. I don't see them as quite as lame as hot-dropping, but it's still pretty weak, and boring 95% of the time if you're the one doing it. I don't know what would have to change to fix this dynamic but I think the game would benefit from some mechanic that reduced the need to camp gates, and the effectiveness of it. Right now the game feels more like a bunch of narrow hallways and bottlenecks rather than deep space. Imo jumpgates should be done away with entirely except for possibly jumping from region to region. With bottlenecks removed, scanning could possibly be made more effective and accessible to everyone (not just a dedicated scanning ship, though those should still have an advantage) to make it easier to find fights. IE people shouldnt have to give up a hardpoint to be able to scan people down. I certainly don't know everything, and maybe these are bad ideas, but I do know that the title of my thread sums up the game for me. Gate camps and hot drops are indeed lame and a good reason not to pvp in null sec. Go to faction war space and fight in and around plexes. You don't need to be in faction war to do this and actually you will get more fights by not joining fw, but still fighting in the plexes. No hotdrops in plexes. Cant camp plex gates. No gate guns or sentry guns in or outside the plexes. Just excellent small scale pvp. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Grimpak Midnight Elites Echelon Rising 722	Posted - 2013.02.04 19:00:00 - [146] - Quote Jealousy Asques wrote: You have to draw the line somewhere, and hot dropping is just too easy. At least make the cyno take longer to set up, and limit the number of ships that can come through. They could still "chain-cyno" and get just as many people there, it would just take longer, not blink +40 ships pew pew blink empty space + debris. let me break that mechanic for you: 5 cynos pop up. well yeah you counter with a "but you should limit the number of cynos per grid!" sure, but how will you limit it? you'll make it only one per grid independently of whoever is on grid? exploitable. one side pops up a cyno on grid and now you just artificially blocked capital access to your enemy. pretty much borderline unbalanced exploit there. you'll make it only one per corp per grid? bring another corp to light up a 2nd cyno. you'll make it only one per alliance per grid? bring an npc alt or an out-of-alliance to light up a 2nd cyno. there, broke your suggestion. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img] [quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Whitehound 644	Posted - 2013.02.04 19:51:00 - [147] - Quote Grimpak wrote: Jealousy Asques wrote: You have to draw the line somewhere, and hot dropping is just too easy. At least make the cyno take longer to set up, and limit the number of ships that can come through. They could still "chain-cyno" and get just as many people there, it would just take longer, not blink +40 ships pew pew blink empty space + debris. let me break that mechanic for you: 5 cynos pop up. well yeah you counter with a "but you should limit the number of cynos per grid!" sure, but how will you limit it? you'll make it only one per grid independently of whoever is on grid? exploitable. one side pops up a cyno on grid and now you just artificially blocked capital access to your enemy. pretty much borderline unbalanced exploit there. you'll make it only one per corp per grid? bring another corp to light up a 2nd cyno. you'll make it only one per alliance per grid? bring an npc alt or an out-of-alliance to light up a 2nd cyno. there, broke your suggestion. It may need something like an anti-cyno ship or an anti-cyno bubble to create an area in space where a cyno can not be lit. It seems unfair to me when 0.0 sov mechanic allows alliances to set up cyno blockers for entire systems, and in low-sec everyone gets trolled by 0.0 alliances with hot drops and where no one has got an option to prevent against it. Especially young alliances will first practise hot drops on low-sec gangs before daring it doing to anyone in 0.0. Low-sec gets bend over more than it is reasonable. SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog
Grimpak Midnight Elites Echelon Rising 722	Posted - 2013.02.04 20:37:00 - [148] - Quote Whitehound wrote: It may need something like an anti-cyno ship or an anti-cyno bubble to create an area in space where a cyno can not be lit. It seems unfair to me when 0.0 sov mechanic allows alliances to set up cyno blockers for entire systems, and in low-sec everyone gets trolled by 0.0 alliances with hot drops and where no one has got an option to prevent against it. Especially young alliances will first practise hot drops on low-sec gangs before daring it anyone in 0.0. Low-sec gets bend over more than it is reasonable. yes but, if you notice, hard caps in this game usually leads to hard-to-close exploits. atm anti-cyno ships would only be sorta balanced if they shut down cynos on the grid (or system) for everybody, and that means you, your enemy and any 3rd, 4th or 5th party or anybody else that decides to join the fray. beyond that, the only way to limit anything in this game is to make it less desirable, for example, yon olde nerfhammer. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img] [quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Whitehound 644	Posted - 2013.02.04 21:09:00 - [149] - Quote Grimpak wrote: yes but, if you notice, hard caps in this game usually leads to hard-to-close exploits. atm anti-cyno ships would only be sorta balanced if they shut down cynos on the grid (or system) for everybody, and that means you, your enemy and any 3rd, 4th or 5th party or anybody else that decides to join the fray. beyond that, the only way to limit anything in this game is to make it less desirable, for example, yon olde nerfhammer. They should not have given cyno jammers to 0.0 folks, because it makes 0.0 partially saver than low-sec, which is inconsistent with the level of security (high > low > null). An anti-cyno ship would then have an area of effect of perhaps 75km simply to avoid a hot drop right into the middle of a fleet where otherwise everyone just bumps into everyone and it is a total chaos. Being able to define a small strategic area where your own fleet can sit save from a direct hot drop might already be enough to make this more interesting. SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog
Fon Revedhort Monks of War Out of Sight. 967	Posted - 2013.02.05 13:48:00 - [150] - Quote Whitehound wrote: An anti-cyno ship would then have an area of effect of perhaps 75km simply to avoid a hot drop right into the middle of a fleet where otherwise everyone just bumps into everyone and it is a total chaos. Being able to define a small strategic area where your own fleet can sit save from a direct hot drop might already be enough to make this more interesting. It's really ironic how you propose a tool which will be of a greater availability for larger gangs and fleets while the thing suffering most is small-scale PvP. 14

Morganta Peripheral Madness Clockwork Pineapple 1827	Posted - 2013.02.05 15:28:00 - [151] - Quote getting dropped on is fun got a t1 cruiser fleet into a 3-way and then got dropped by both eve uni and PL in the same fight over the weekend in egg great times were had I see nothing wrong with it, it just sucks you have to schlep to lowsec or sov to get in on the fun really, you bears gotta get into the action, solo dieing to gate camps is silly when you can lern 2 fly and get into a good pvp corp its not rocket science, its not fps, hell, Michael J Fox could probably pvp like a baws and you know he has issues...
Whitehound 657	Posted - 2013.02.05 21:09:00 - [152] - Quote Fon Revedhort wrote: Whitehound wrote: An anti-cyno ship would then have an area of effect of perhaps 75km simply to avoid a hot drop right into the middle of a fleet where otherwise everyone just bumps into everyone and it is a total chaos. Being able to define a small strategic area where your own fleet can sit save from a direct hot drop might already be enough to make this more interesting. It's really ironic how you propose a tool which will be of a greater availability for larger gangs and fleets while the thing suffering most is small-scale PvP. Think before you post!! What you just wrote is true for almost anything in EVE. Weapons, e-war, ships, ... SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog
Mike AntHunt MUSTANG RIDERS INC. 0	Posted - 2013.02.05 21:37:00 - [153] - Quote Jealousy Asques wrote: The hot droppers can pick their fights for very little risk and it almost always results in one sided battles. How do they contribute to epic space battles, what this game should be about? . You obviously haven't heard of any successful small gang pvp corporations. Corporations like SPDR and alliances like rooks and kings are two examples. If you are in a corporation that can utilize ships to their advantage, even with small numbers and facing a massive enemy force, the gang can come out on top. It takes training, practice ( including death ) and people with the balls to go out there and lay it all on the line. If you want to experience good PvP, find the right corporation. Do your research on them before joining them. Everyone has the same tools available to them. It's how you use those tools that determines wins. Not numbers.
Lord LazyGhost The Bastards Shadow Cartel 53	Posted - 2013.02.06 09:06:00 - [154] - Quote Make gates jump u to a random part of the system. Could also do that for cynos 2 would stop the installation hot drop of death at the same time
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 2430	Posted - 2013.02.06 09:15:00 - [155] - Quote Revman Zim wrote: Looking at the kill that supposedly started this thread, I am going to guess that it was a Black Ops fleet drop. Having participated in those fleets in the past, I can say that they are not easy. You have to scout a system and find a target. That target has to be STUPID enough to stay in one spot (even though our scout shows in local) long enough for the scout to decloak, pop a cyno and for all of us to jump in, point, scram, kill and GTFO before the calvary is called. Skill intensive, nerve wracking, long waits for small rewards, exhilirating when it works out. But the key is the target has to be STUPID. P.S. You were killed in NULLSEC. There is this place with rainbows, unicorns and NO CYNO's.. it is called HISEC. "Long waits for small rewards" Tell me, who is the winner in that engagement?
Moonasha Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth 118	Posted - 2013.02.06 09:27:00 - [156] - Quote Jealousy Asques wrote: How do they contribute to epic space battles, what this game should be about?. found your problem. Eve isn't about epic space battles. It's about pvp. Epic space battles are one part of that.
Kashmyta Mean Corp Mean Coalition 47	Posted - 2013.02.06 10:29:00 - [157] - Quote Jealousy Asques wrote: waa waaa waaaa . Why are you so angry? I don't know what is more annoying, your post or this song? click
Whitehound 664	Posted - 2013.02.06 10:47:00 - [158] - Quote Moonasha wrote: Jealousy Asques wrote: How do they contribute to epic space battles, what this game should be about?. found your problem. Eve isn't about epic space battles. It's about pvp. Epic space battles are one part of that. Take a look at this picture. If you see nothing wrong with that then it is because you lack imagination. Battles do not have to be like this - a ball of ships. It is in fact the most boring scenario a space battle can have. There is no formation and no tactics in there. Everyone simply jumps onto one spot and the one with the most ships wins. Being able to avoid hot drops even if only within a small radius would open up the fights for new tactics where range, speed and agility of ships come into play again. It is then no surprise when smartbombs have become one of the top damage dealers in such fights. What happened to falloff, optimal range and tracking of turrets, the range of missiles, etc.? All these attributes have no meaning at this point. Take a second look at the picture. You still think this is fine? SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog
Fon Revedhort Monks of War Out of Sight. 968	Posted - 2013.02.06 11:05:00 - [159] - Quote Whitehound wrote: Fon Revedhort wrote: Whitehound wrote: An anti-cyno ship would then have an area of effect of perhaps 75km simply to avoid a hot drop right into the middle of a fleet where otherwise everyone just bumps into everyone and it is a total chaos. Being able to define a small strategic area where your own fleet can sit save from a direct hot drop might already be enough to make this more interesting. It's really ironic how you propose a tool which will be of a greater availability for larger gangs and fleets while the thing suffering most is small-scale PvP. Think before you post!! What you just wrote is true for almost anything in EVE. Weapons, e-war, ships, ... And that's why you want to widen the gap even further instead of just addressing the mechanics itself? The concept of one ship providing equal flat bonuses to a small gang and to a fleet is flawed from the beginning. Happily, most ships provide % benefits. 14
Whitehound 664	Posted - 2013.02.06 11:18:00 - [160] - Quote Fon Revedhort wrote: And that's why you want to widen the gap even further instead of just addressing the mechanics itself? The concept of one ship providing equal flat bonuses to a small gang and to a fleet is flawed from the beginning. Happily, most ships provide % benefits. You have no idea what you are talking about. You have again posted some meaningless phrase of no content and have stopped making a connection to what is being said here. Stop with the whining and think before posting! SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog

Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 7577	Posted - 2013.02.06 11:21:00 - [161] - Quote Whitehound wrote: It is then no surprise when smartbombs have become one of the top damage dealers in such fights. What happened to falloff, optimal range and tracking of turrets, the range of missiles, etc.? All these attributes have no meaning at this point. I beg your pardon, but range and tracking are hugely important in large battles. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread
Whitehound 664	Posted - 2013.02.06 11:23:00 - [162] - Quote Malcanis wrote: Whitehound wrote: It is then no surprise when smartbombs have become one of the top damage dealers in such fights. What happened to falloff, optimal range and tracking of turrets, the range of missiles, etc.? All these attributes have no meaning at this point. I beg your pardon, but range and tracking are hugely important in large battles. Really? And what did I write? SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 7577	Posted - 2013.02.06 11:28:00 - [163] - Quote Whitehound wrote: Malcanis wrote: Whitehound wrote: It is then no surprise when smartbombs have become one of the top damage dealers in such fights. What happened to falloff, optimal range and tracking of turrets, the range of missiles, etc.? All these attributes have no meaning at this point. I beg your pardon, but range and tracking are hugely important in large battles. Really? And what did I write? That they had no meaning. They are in fact extremely meaningful. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread
Whitehound 664	Posted - 2013.02.06 11:35:00 - [164] - Quote Malcanis wrote: That they had no meaning. They are in fact extremely meaningful. So you agree with me. Good. Let me bring you up to speed so you do not have to feel left out... What I said is that according to the devblog, if you had cared to follow the link, do smartbombs make the most damage in such blob fights and that it makes other attributes meaningless. You get this now? SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog
Whitehound 664	Posted - 2013.02.06 12:07:00 - [165] - Quote And just because I can will I compare the idea of an anti-cyno ship or bubble to warp bubbles. First you need to look at what warp bubbles do. They are a tool to keep a fight together and stop everyone from warping out of a fight. It is a tool that has to be brought into place and it is not something that is given by default. It is a tactical element and everyone one, large or small, can use it. An anti-cyno bubble works more or less in the opposite way. It can help to drive a fight apart and to stop everyone from jumping directly into a fight. It would be just another tool that has to be brought into place. It would be another tactical element for everyone. Capitals were meant not be be flown solo, but when one can fit a cyno onto a capital can they pretty much work alone until reinforcement are needed. It is then impossible for a small gang of sub-cap ships to do anything about it, unless they had an anti-cyno tool. It could be used to catch solo capitals more often and be a great tool for small gangs as well as a tactical tool for large scale blob fights. SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog
Whitethorn Reyhold Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2013.03.14 05:34:00 - [166] - Quote Even as a total noob, I can tell already the game runs completely on what in other games would be considered griefing. Then again, in a way that makes the PVP more "realistic" than any other game out there. Rather like the real world, it is about setting up fights where the other person doesn't have a chance. Frankly even corporation wars are about griefing, ultimately that is near all that is done in the game. Almost all the resources in the game are harvested to fuel corporate wars, I am sure there are a few who just want to make loads of ISK (or just plain like the PvE missions and nothing else), but really we all know it is about the space battles. The fun I imagine is in the meta game, the set ups and social relations between players. Still I will probably give this game a miss after my first month. I have real world social relationships and meta planning to do. So understand why someone might like the game, but also get why many do not.
Andski GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 7080	Posted - 2013.03.14 05:37:00 - [167] - Quote stop being a bad player and you won't die to these "lame PvPers" ~a proud belligerent undesirable~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8
Kane Alvo SQUIDS. 82	Posted - 2013.03.14 08:15:00 - [168] - Quote Whitethorn Reyhold wrote: Even as a total noob, I can tell already the game runs completely on what in other games would be considered griefing. Then again, in a way that makes the PVP more "realistic" than any other game out there. Rather like the real world, it is about setting up fights where the other person doesn't have a chance. Because in other games there is no real loss. There's nothing at risk. In other games, if you get killed, worse case scenario is you have to visit Ye Olde Armor Repair Shoppe to fix damage to your gear after you respawn. Most games, you don't even have to do that anymore...just respawn and re-enter the fray. In Eve, when your ship blows up, it's gone forever, and that loss can be tied to a real time and money value. The only thing worse in recent memory were the days of Jedi permanent death in the early days of SWG, where players lost their entire character if killed. That didn't last long, though, but it was high times to be a bounty hunter. Nothing was more precious than the tears of a dead Jedi. Caldari Militia -áGÿ£GÿàGÿP Psychotic Monk for CSM8
Le Badass Zealots of Bob 61	Posted - 2013.03.14 08:55:00 - [169] - Quote Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: Jealousy Asques wrote: Imo jumpgates should be done away with entirely except for possibly jumping from region to region. If you are crying this much over gatecamps...i cant image the tsunami of tears that will pour from you when you need to MWD from system to system...or better yet, have the miserable experience of capdrain warp after capdrain warp for 3 hours to get to a next door system. While I don't believe gates will ever disappear, and it doesn't ruin my day that we have this mechanic, I don't see how it can possibly be so hard to imagine you opening your starmap, right click on a star in range of your jump drive and say warp to. You could even have a little submenu where you can choose celestial, much like when you want to warp to a moon at a certain planet. Voila, no need to MWD for hours, use magic portals or other obvious troll-suggestions and now it's suddenly easy to get around and very hard to camp bottlenecks. Most of the time, however, you could probably catch lazy/stupid people who just default jump to the sun.
Katran Luftschreck Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps 1112	Posted - 2013.03.14 10:54:00 - [170] - Quote I'll just repeat this verbatim here: Jump drives in every ship, no cyno needed. That's right, make every ship jump capable. Redo fuel costs from current flat rates to ((ship mass x distance traveled)/fuel conservation skill). So frigates could jump for very little fuel (important considering their small cargo bays) while larger ships would suck more fuel (but they can hold it). Travel now comes in three flavors: 1) Stargate. As before. 2) Cyno jump. As before. 3) Unguided Jump. New! Shiny! Without a cyno beacon the jumping ship arrives (random) 10 to 100 AUs from the star in a completely random direction. Might want to move before you get scanned down. Think for even one minute what the end of gate camping would do to EvE. Your reaction will either be white-faced heart attack or spontaneous orgasm. Want to move a fleet into a system? Fine. Form up a fleet and jump it right in there. People want to defend a POS? Then defend the dang POS, not some gate fifteen jumps away. Want to scam a -10.0 pirate into hisec? Blip in, blip out. Want to sneak your Venture past the two douchebags running combat bots on their Falcons 23/7? Blip in, blip out. Want to roam nullsec looking for "gudfites" and thumb your nose at whoever claims sov on the system? Go for it, nothing is going to stop except that fight you went in looking for. FW, sov battles, piracy, smuggling... everything becomes a true game of cat & mouse and hit & run. And everyone can get in on it. EvE is like prison.-á It's a place when bad people go to learn how to become even worse people.

Jensaro Koraka Serenity Prime Kraken. 67	Posted - 2013.03.14 11:12:00 - [171] - Quote Karl Hobb wrote: Jealousy Asques wrote: everyone is told to dock up for safety. Can't risk your precious kill boards! If you're docking up because of killboards I'd say you're in a terrible, terrible organization. I mean, my corp is as **** as they come but at least our strategy is along the lines of " it, might as well". If my CEO started worrying about our killboards I'd go over to his house, tell him to off, and drink all his whiskey. And whining about gatecamps is so passe. Get some friends and HTFU. I agree. The problem sounds like their corp. My corp tries not to lose, of course, but I've never heard anyone whining about killboards. We lose ships all the time doing stuff we knew would probably get us killed. Katran Luftschreck wrote:** Think for even one minute what the end of gate camping would do to EvE. Your reaction will either be white-faced heart attack or spontaneous orgasm. I like PvP so i'm going to go with white-faced heart attack. We don't gate camp, but the majority of our PvP does happen near gates. The only people this wouldn't kill PvP for are the FW crowd. "Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -H.L. Mencken
Debora Tsung The Investment Bankers Guild 69	Posted - 2013.03.14 11:48:00 - [172] - Quote Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: Jealousy Asques wrote: So... We should just introduce a new ship. A Death-Star that was designed with no exploitable vulnerabilities (stupid vader!) and can warp around the galaxy annihilating planets and fleets at will. Well, only 99.9% invulnerable. theres always a small chance that a 1 man fighter might skim across a trench and shoot a torpedo down a hole and blow it all up. I know what youre thinking...whoa...that sounds like a major design flaw. But it was really just an aesthetic choice by the architect, and its only 2 meters across..which in reality is no bigger than a whomprat, so itll probably be ok. Death Star, aka the Bismarck. They clearly should've designed a ship without a rudder. There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper.
Alice Saki Suddenly Spaced Out Suddenly Spaceships. 36505	Posted - 2013.03.14 11:50:00 - [173] - Quote Incoming buff Nag, More 'Lame' HotDrops inc Saede GÖÑ We Remember
Kagura Nikon Emptiness. 16	Posted - 2013.03.14 11:51:00 - [174] - Quote My view of problem. All tactical objectives requires huge ammount of STATIC time of a lot of people . Be it shooting POS, or sov related structures. That means that there is no way to force enemies to react and engage a small fleet, because a small fleet cannot do anythign really dangerous. That leaves 2 optiosn for pvp, the large strategical ops called BLOBS and gate gamps or hot drop traps.
Nova Satar Rekall Incorporated Sinewave Alliance 46	Posted - 2013.03.14 12:37:00 - [175] - Quote its really quite simple, the percentage of risk-adverse players in eve has tipped meaning that those willing to engage in pvp are finding it harder and harder to find somebody to fight with. And i mean properly fight, not gate campers killing badgers and thinking its pvp. Not wormholers sitting with 30 t3's waiting to snag a 3 man gang, thats not pvp either. Im talking about people who are willing to take a risk, and commit to a 50/50 fight. Its INCREDIBLY rare to find people up for that, and most when offered it will find a reason to turn it down. Sadly its now even reaching a point where fights look too good to be true, you have to expect a cyno.
dexington Caldari Provisions Caldari State 604	Posted - 2013.03.14 12:59:00 - [176] - Quote Nova Satar wrote: Im talking about people who are willing to take a risk, and commit to a 50/50 fight. Its INCREDIBLY rare to find people up for that, and most when offered it will find a reason to turn it down. If you want fair 1 vs. 1 fights, go do factional warfare or join rvb, that's as fair as things get in eve. Unless you are into solo pvp, don't whine about gate camps and hot drops, i have never seen a small gang not trying to 5v1 on a gate when they got the chance, which is the same **** on a small scale. I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Emily Florence Nightingale Uskudar 27	Posted - 2013.03.14 12:59:00 - [177] - Quote Jealousy Asques wrote: I generally love pvp games, the more hardcore the better, but I've lost interest in EVE... The extent of nullsec pvp is pretty much what the title says. Hot drops as far as I'm concerned are pretty much game breaking, a very cheesy, lame and over-used tactic. The hot droppers can pick their fights for very little risk and it almost always results in one sided battles. How do they contribute to epic space battles, what this game should be about? They don't. In intermediate/newb friendly corps one hot dropper capable ship shows up in your system and everyone is told to dock up for safety. Can't risk your precious kill boards! How fun is that? It's not! At the very least there should be a limit on how much mass or the number of ships that can hot drop through one cyno field (3-4 cruisers, 2 battleships/ 1 carrier maybe at most), and they should not be able to escape by the same method (or log out for that matter) for a very long time. Hisec war-dec pvp where hotdrops can't happen is alot more fun and fair, but very few people do it. Established pirate corps & pros do it, and other intermediate corps run and hide from it. Even in hisec though pvp is largely about gate camps. I don't see them as quite as lame as hot-dropping, but it's still pretty weak, and boring 95% of the time if you're the one doing it. I don't know what would have to change to fix this dynamic but I think the game would benefit from some mechanic that reduced the need to camp gates, and the effectiveness of it. Right now the game feels more like a bunch of narrow hallways and bottlenecks rather than deep space. Imo jumpgates should be done away with entirely except for possibly jumping from region to region. With bottlenecks removed, scanning could possibly be made more effective and accessible to everyone (not just a dedicated scanning ship, though those should still have an advantage) to make it easier to find fights. IE people shouldnt have to give up a hardpoint to be able to scan people down. I certainly don't know everything, and maybe these are bad ideas, but I do know that the title of my thread sums up the game for me. My word... And the Darwin award for "Not Having enough Intellegence to Avoid being ganked using the wealth of existing resources already available" goes too.... I read thru your post and everything you mentioned has a counter, if you invest just a liitle more time in the game a less time whining
Corey Fumimasa Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance 213	Posted - 2013.03.15 00:54:00 - [178] - Quote Jealousy, maybe you could put rails on your ratter and stay aligned. Or hell, stick with the blasters and put a couple of warp core stabs on, then kite the rats out of the rocks a bit so you don't get hung up. I ratted with smartbombs and wcstabs for a while =-) Hmm, I may have to try that again, its been a while. Also fleet up with all the neutrals in system, if they wont fleet or are in a fleet assume they are hostile and that you are being hunted. Maybe scan them down and see whats up, bring a ship scanner and check for cyno's. Fleet up with the reds, they might bite and even if they don't you get to find out if they are in fleet or not. Get on intel and fleet up with other local ratters, make sure everyone is in PvP capable ships. Check again with intel or have one of your officers check to see if we have a cyno team up, or can get one together. See if there's a friendly bomber wing in the area or put one together. Camp your own gates, I often throw a bubble up and camp when there's an active red in sys. If they are AFK or a neutral I cant confirm, I go next door and see if the Apoc guys have a free site. I looked at your KM and its funny, we had a similar one last week, except no cyno and only one bomber; he waited until the target was deep into an anom and then opened up. With the rats and the bombs our guy went down, the same thing could have happened to you. They didn't need to cyno in a fleet of bombers, one guy did 50% of the damage and only 3 or 4 others did any at all. The DPS part of the fight is always going to be skewed one way or the other, the challenge is all in the setup. Null sec is meant to simulate a warzone, I think it does that pretty well. And its a lot of fun to play the game of cat and mouse. We are made sharp by the whetstone of purity and truth that is the Empire, all due praises to her Majesty Lord of the host. The alternative to reclamation is to fall as wheat before the scythe. Amarr Victor!
Fredfredbug4 The Scope Gallente Federation 517	Posted - 2013.03.15 01:14:00 - [179] - Quote Think of it this way. When you hunt an animal, you have to put in a lot of energy just to find it, let alone actually kill it. Or you could try trapping the animal. Like the majority of things in EVE, gatecamps can be countered. You can either be fast, strong, or stealthy when dealing with them. Also, gatecamps can actually lead to pretty impressive battles. If two solo pilots or small gangs that know what they are doing gatecamp each other, then you can get into a pretty fastpaced skirmish. If everyone starts calling in their friends, and their friends friends, then you got a massive fleet battle on your hands. While gatecamping isn't the best tactic in EVE, it's acceptable and has it's place. I would like to see more mechanics in the game that encourage other forms of finding fights, but gatecamping is alright . If you are getting hotdropped without back up of your own and getting insta popped on gatecamps, you are doing something wrong. Seriously. After spending a little time in nullsec, you should start to assume that EVERY gate is camped. With that mindset you will find yourself getting killed less often. I'm no expert on PVP, I actually suck quite a bit at the moment, but I do know a little basic logic. When I go into null, I make sure I prepare for gatecamps, because nullsec=gate camps. As a rule of thumb, if you don't know, as in being 100% positive that there isn't a gatecamp on the other side and you don't have a way to GTFO or blast your way through, (the former is generally better) then don't jump. Simple logic. I accidentally my assets, is this bad?-á
Surfin's PlunderBunny Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 9283	Posted - 2013.03.15 01:51:00 - [180] - Quote Fredfredbug4 wrote: Think of it this way. When you hunt an animal, you have to put in a lot of energy just to find it, let alone actually kill it. Or you could try trapping the animal. Like the majority of things in EVE, gatecamps can be countered. You can either be fast, strong, or stealthy when dealing with them. Also, gatecamps can actually lead to pretty impressive battles. If two solo pilots or small gangs that know what they are doing gatecamp each other, then you can get into a pretty fastpaced skirmish. If everyone starts calling in their friends, and their friends friends, then you got a massive fleet battle on your hands. While gatecamping isn't the best tactic in EVE, it's acceptable and has it's place. I would like to see more mechanics in the game that encourage other forms of finding fights, but gatecamping is alright . If you are getting hotdropped without back up of your own and getting insta popped on gatecamps, you are doing something wrong. Seriously. After spending a little time in nullsec, you should start to assume that EVERY gate is camped. With that mindset you will find yourself getting killed less often. I'm no expert on PVP, I actually suck quite a bit at the moment, but I do know a little basic logic. When I go into null, I make sure I prepare for gatecamps, because nullsec=gate camps. As a rule of thumb, if you don't know, as in being 100% positive that there isn't a gatecamp on the other side and you don't have a way to GTFO or blast your way through, (the former is generally better) then don't jump. Simple logic. The best start to an epic fight is to accidentally jump your titan into enemy space while attempting a make a jump bridge and start a giant fight involving over 700 corps Don't think that's ever happened though "Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff-á

Orlacc 319	Posted - 2013.03.15 02:02:00 - [181] - Quote Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote: The loss that caused this thread yeah nerf cynos that'll spite those wormhole dwellers Love these! "Measure Twice, Cut Once."
silens vesica Corsair Cartel 1016	Posted - 2013.03.15 03:13:00 - [182] - Quote Eisen Kern wrote: silens vesica wrote: Eisen Kern wrote: Too much talk on effectiveness, the problem is the fun factor. Gate camps (I haven't been hot dropped) are not fun, for the camper or campee. Speak for yourself. This should be taken as granted, given you yourself don't say "so and so makes it fun for me." etc. Quote: Unlike folks who whinge or won't adapt, I've turned camps and the (singular) drop on their heads - I use them as playground toys to increase my fun. As you have to when it's the mechanic you have to use. However it's not as fun as it should be and it discourages more players taking risks in low sec. Really sorry I hadn't seen this before... I daresay you missed the point. The way things are should not discourage people. It's pixels people, not pain! If you get popped, you don't bleed. There should be no fear associated with going out and taking a chance - People whom are intimidated by watching their pixels turn colors and become non-interactive are playing the wrong bloody game. If you're trying something and it doesn't work, try something different. Or do it in a different place. Or bring friends. Or...Adapt. I did, and I discovered that the big bad Nul is actually kinda boring unless you go looking for people. And you find them where? Gate camps are your most reliable source for finding folks to play with. I play 'keep away' with my hull, and maybe my pod, as the prize. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing. Malcanis for CSM8
Ryu Ibarazaki Brave Newbies Inc. 8	Posted - 2013.03.15 04:49:00 - [183] - Quote silens vesica wrote: I daresay you missed the point. The way things are should not discourage people. It's pixels people, not pain! If you get popped, you don't bleed. There should be no fear associated with going out and taking a chance - People whom are intimidated by watching their pixels turn colors and become non-interactive are playing the wrong bloody game. This. In a past EVE life I took this game seriously as an industrialist with my spreadsheets, market manipulations, checking my sell orders way more often than I'd care to admit. I grew to hate it and left. I came back recently to fly with some fun people, get blown up alot, and just have some laughs and adventure. When I stoped careing, EVE became fun again; which sounds weird I know but it worked for me and lots of others. Adapt like Silens said, and the next time you find yourself exploding- give a 'gf' and have a laugh about it.
Asuka Solo Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises 2319	Posted - 2013.03.15 05:13:00 - [184] - Quote Jealousy Asques wrote: Spiteful stuff In intermediate/newb friendly corps one hot dropper capable ship shows up in your system and everyone is told to dock up for safety. Can't risk your precious kill boards! How fun is that? It's not! Found their problem. Jealousy Asques wrote: At the very least there should be a limit on how much mass or the number of ships that can hot drop through one cyno field (3-4 cruisers, 2 battleships/ 1 carrier maybe at most), and they should not be able to escape by the same method (or log out for that matter) for a very long time. Posting in a secrete nerf caps boost sub caps whine topic. Jealousy Asques wrote: Hisec war-dec pvp where hotdrops can't happen is alot more fun and fair, but very few people do it. Established pirate corps & pros do it, and other intermediate corps run and hide from it. Even in hisec though pvp is largely about gate camps. I don't see them as quite as lame as hot-dropping, but it's still pretty weak, and boring 95% of the time if you're the one doing it. I don't know what would have to change to fix this dynamic but I think the game would benefit from some mechanic that reduced the need to camp gates, and the effectiveness of it. Right now the game feels more like a bunch of narrow hallways and bottlenecks rather than deep space. Wrong. Hi-sec PvP is about neutral remote reps and suspect flag ganks on popular undocks in huge systems. If yoru gate camping in hi-sec, you better be getting freighter kills or your doing it wrong... Jealousy Asques wrote: Imo jumpgates should be done away with entirely except for possibly jumping from region to region. With bottlenecks removed, scanning could possibly be made more effective and accessible to everyone (not just a dedicated scanning ship, though those should still have an advantage) to make it easier to find fights. IE people shouldnt have to give up a hardpoint to be able to scan people down. Get out. Jealousy Asques wrote: I certainly don't know everything, and maybe these are bad ideas, but I do know that the title of my thread sums up the game for me. Your right. They are bad ideas. Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Whitethorn Reyhold Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 1	Posted - 2013.03.15 05:20:00 - [185] - Quote Kane Alvo wrote: Whitethorn Reyhold wrote: Even as a total noob, I can tell already the game runs completely on what in other games would be considered griefing. Then again, in a way that makes the PVP more "realistic" than any other game out there. Rather like the real world, it is about setting up fights where the other person doesn't have a chance. Because in other games there is no real loss. There's nothing at risk. In other games, if you get killed, worse case scenario is you have to visit Ye Olde Armor Repair Shoppe to fix damage to your gear after you respawn. Most games, you don't even have to do that anymore...just respawn and re-enter the fray. In Eve, when your ship blows up, it's gone forever, and that loss can be tied to a real time and money value. The only thing worse in recent memory were the days of Jedi permanent death in the early days of SWG, where players lost their entire character if killed. That didn't last long, though, but it was high times to be a bounty hunter. Nothing was more precious than the tears of a dead Jedi. Well, partly that but also mostly the game is just set up that way. There are plenty of people willing to grief or take on uneven battles in all MMOs, just other games go out of their way to give rewards for playing inside the lines (in WoW on a PvP server you can gank lowbies all day long, you just only get tangable rewards for regulated PvP). Eve is pretty clearly set up not to be this way. Frankly while I am sure CCP will constantly tweak the mechanics where they think it is needed, fair battles are pretty much not on the agenda.
Keno Skir Vectis Covert Solutions 405	Posted - 2013.03.15 11:26:00 - [186] - Quote Get over it, some people have more ships and a better plan than you. There are loads of types of people in game, some like the fight to be "fair" and complain loudly when someone brings more ships than they did. Some prefer to play it in a militaristic fashion where the aim of the game is to tactically destroy the enemy while losing as few ships as possible. When the two collide, one inevitaly starts winging that the other is using "cheap" tactics. When you always have more ships and a better plan than the scrub coming through the gate, they will shout CHEAP TACTICS! and make a forum post. But in reality you are likely playing against people who just had a plan and some friends. I prefer to play the Militaristic way, i am much happier if we outnumber the enemy 3 to 1 (This is never the case haha). I understand some people would like the game to be merely a series of instanced duels where numbers are controlled and you never have to fight a better ship or bigger gang than your own. But i personally would find that to be boring and would quit. HARDEN UP MAN Make a plan and realise if it fails to a hot drop or gatecamp, it was most likely just not a good enough plan. Don't feel the need to write a long forum post about how sht your plan was. Don't complain loudly about how you didnt bring enough ships, or any logistics, or any scouts, and have not yet learned to recognise a cyno alt when you see one. In the real world people do not deliberately turn up to a fight with the same number of troops as the enemy. In reality you want to outnumber the enemy heavily because otherwise you might lose. That IS the same tactic all of us would use in real life. Why does everyone think it should be "fair" just because it's in a game. If you have any further thoughts on something i've posted, or want to ask an unrelated question feel free to contact me by EvE Mail or by private conversation if 'm online. BUDDY TRIALS AVAILABLE - 21days plus big ISK bonus and starting assistance*
Deranged FleX Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad. 5	Posted - 2013.03.15 11:26:00 - [187] - Quote Did someone say hot drops?
Camper101 Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships. 74	Posted - 2013.03.15 12:20:00 - [188] - Quote Deranged FleX wrote: Did someone say hot drops? I came here, because someone lit a Covert Cyno in this thread. Left disappointed due to the lack of gank in this thread. 2013.03.01 13:30:58 notify For participating in the General Discussion Forum Section your trustworthiness has been adjusted by -2.5000.
Doc Severide Caldari Provisions Caldari State 11	Posted - 2013.03.15 13:08:00 - [189] - Quote Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: Jealousy Asques wrote: Imo jumpgates should be done away with entirely except for possibly jumping from region to region. If you are crying this much over gatecamps...i cant image the tsunami of tears that will pour from you when you need to MWD from system to system...or better yet, have the miserable experience of capdrain warp after capdrain warp for 3 hours to get to a next door system. Exactly. Anyone promoting the removal of jumpgates should be perma banned.... And gate camps are fine, quit whining... Keno Skir wrote: Get over it, some people have more ships and a better plan than you. There are loads of types of people in game, some like the fight to be "fair" and complain loudly when someone brings more ships than they did. Some prefer to play it in a militaristic fashion where the aim of the game is to tactically destroy the enemy while losing as few ships as possible. When the two collide, one inevitaly starts winging that the other is using "cheap" tactics. When you always have more ships and a better plan than the scrub coming through the gate, they will shout CHEAP TACTICS! and make a forum post. But in reality you are likely playing against people who just had a plan and some friends. I prefer to play the Militaristic way, i am much happier if we outnumber the enemy 3 to 1 (This is never the case haha). I understand some people would like the game to be merely a series of instanced duels where numbers are controlled and you never have to fight a better ship or bigger gang than your own. But i personally would find that to be boring and would quit. HARDEN UP MAN Make a plan and realise if it fails to a hot drop or gatecamp, it was most likely just not a good enough plan. Don't feel the need to write a long forum post about how sh*t your plan was. Don't complain loudly about how you didnt bring enough ships, or any logistics, or any scouts, and have not yet learned to recognise a cyno alt when you see one. In the real world people do not deliberately turn up to a fight with the same number of troops as the enemy. In reality you want to outnumber the enemy heavily because otherwise you might lose. That IS the same tactic all of us would use in real life. Why does everyone think it should be "fair" just because it's in a game. Good post... Whoever said life was fair or should be??? I don't understand what the hell people expect from a game like this. It's EVE FFS...
Sergeant Acht Scultz School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 675	Posted - 2013.03.15 14:28:00 - [190] - Quote Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: If you are crying this much over gatecamps...i cant image the tsunami of tears that will pour from you when you need to MWD from system to system...or better yet, have the miserable experience of capdrain warp after capdrain warp for 3 hours to get to a next door system. It's not because Eve traveling system is horrible that you have to find yet another horrible one, there are far more creative proposals popping every year than you or any one around including my self could put whatever words about this. Easy/promoted graveyard camping is a horrible form of pvp leading to this mass concentration of players in high sec. If those players were really risk averse they wouldn't play on TQ but on SISI, so there's an obvious error of coding. removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne

Lucas Schuyler Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 26	Posted - 2013.03.15 14:57:00 - [191] - Quote Jealousy Asques wrote: Whatever dude, if you think gate camping is fun and cannot be improved on, move along, you have nothing to contribute. In any case gate camping is not as lame as the current hot dropping mechanics. Also, if you think a majority of the newb friendly clans don't often tell their newer members to dock up and stay there then... You are wrong. How else does any (other than very large established) corp compete with a hot dropper that drops 20-40 ships on one noob farming belt rats? Happens all the time. And then poof they are gone before anyone even knows what happened. No offense, but it sounds like you want to play a different game than Eve. Elements like Gate Camps and Hot Drops are not something that can be just removed and replaced with... arenas or set pitched battles?
Subdolus Venator State War Academy Caldari State 83	Posted - 2013.03.15 15:09:00 - [192] - Quote Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote: Easy/promoted graveyard camping is a horrible form of pvp leading to this mass concentration of players in high sec. If those players were really risk averse they wouldn't play on TQ but on SISI, so there's an obvious error of coding. Sez you. Camping is great fun. Where else can I find people to taunt and abuse who will react with such fury? I've been chased across whole regions of sapce, trolololoing the whole way. I've watched people logging in and setting ambushes ahead of me as I thread their defences like a hot bit of sharpened piano wire. 'Tis fun! Also - Risk adversityy comes in flavors and degrees. Frankly, I think the majority of folks in hiSec are there for one of three main reasons: That's where the markets and people are, ignorance, or sheer laziness. That last is also why you don't find the lazy ones on Sisi. EVE is EVE - Feaces will eventuate.
Mr Kidd Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 1053	Posted - 2013.03.15 15:20:00 - [193] - Quote Poasting in yet another I can't do it so it's game breaking thread. HTFU!...for the children!
Kane Alvo SQUIDS. 94	Posted - 2013.03.15 15:54:00 - [194] - Quote Whitethorn Reyhold wrote: Frankly while I am sure CCP will constantly tweak the mechanics where they think it is needed, fair battles are pretty much not on the agenda. There's no such thing as a fair fight in any MMO, ever. Expecting to find fair fights, much less expecting that devs are going to somehow tweak mechanics to make thing more "fair" is going to culminate in a lousy gaming experience for you. You just have to take for granted that if a solo WT enters your system, he has 5 friends on the other side of the gate just waiting to curb stomp you once you're tackled. Don't assume that people are AFK if they appear inactive or docked up. They're probably an alt, or at the very least, an off-grid booster. Bottom line is, if you want to PvP in an MMO, be prepared to make lots of friends. You're going to need them. Caldari Militia -áGÿ£GÿàGÿP Psychotic Monk for CSM8
Mr Epeen It's All About Me 2358	Posted - 2013.03.15 16:50:00 - [195] - Quote It only sucks when you are on the wrong end of the hot drop. It's great fun when you are the right side. Perspective, OP. Get some. Mr Epeen There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
Murk Paradox Red Tsunami No Value 271	Posted - 2013.03.15 17:59:00 - [196] - Quote Aza Ebanu wrote: silens vesica wrote: FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: TL;DR: Abandon the no-risk PVP mentality and go after your targets. Translation: Abandon combat and go jousting. BTW: Not claiming that Jousting is non-risk - people died in jousts very regulary. It just wasn't combat. It was violent sport. Yes and jousting was a game just like EVE fools people into believing. But in its essence it is a dark alley simulator. Actually Joust was a game that involved riding an ostrich with flapping wings and you had to knock the rider off his chicken. Atari > all. But I digress. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details.
Norm Tempesta The Konvergent League Sev3rance 25	Posted - 2013.03.15 19:09:00 - [197] - Quote I hate to jump in on such a 'hot' topic and disagree (especially being from the same alliance) with the OP, but............I disagree. But you probably should listen to the boss and stay docked up while the bad guy is there. Gate camps, something we usually do while waiting on some intel involving some action. Hotdrops, not good if you are the victim, but part of the game for now and I am not a game designer. Had a good hotdrop hit the other nite resulting in a 10 min battle, not hardly epic, but fun nonetheless. I really don't agree with one guy being able to camp 30 systems on his own but it is still part of the game, and active hotdroppers can be discouraged.
Whitethorn Reyhold Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 1	Posted - 2013.03.15 19:41:00 - [198] - Quote Kane Alvo wrote: Whitethorn Reyhold wrote: Frankly while I am sure CCP will constantly tweak the mechanics where they think it is needed, fair battles are pretty much not on the agenda. There's no such thing as a fair fight in any MMO, ever. Expecting to find fair fights, much less expecting that devs are going to somehow tweak mechanics to make thing more "fair" is going to culminate in a lousy gaming experience for you. You just have to take for granted that if a solo WT enters your system, he has 5 friends on the other side of the gate just waiting to curb stomp you once you're tackled. Don't assume that people are AFK if they appear inactive or docked up. They're probably an alt, or at the very least, an off-grid booster. Bottom line is, if you want to PvP in an MMO, be prepared to make lots of friends. You're going to need them. I think you misunderstand me. I am saying the Eve PvP system works differently than other MMO's by design. Most people would consider the WoW arena system basically fair. That kind of system may have no place in Eve , but it is easy to see the difference between the 2 systems. In fact isn't that why most people claim to be playing eve in the first place?
Montevius Williams Eclipse Industrial Inc 423	Posted - 2013.03.15 20:09:00 - [199] - Quote Remove Local Remove Jump Gates for system to system travel. Only have Jump gates fr Region to region travel or Constellation travel Sub Caps receive limited Jump drives for system to system travel. This allows you to jump from one system to the next anywhere in current system. Where you land in new system is completely random Limit the amount of mass for hot drops - Cap jump drives still work like they currently do No more Gate camps, execpt across regional borders or constellation borders No more local "The American Government indoctrination system known as public education has been relentlessly churning out socialists for over 20 years". - TravisWB
Ai Shun 911	Posted - 2013.03.15 20:57:00 - [200] - Quote Jealousy Asques wrote: I certainly don't know everything, and maybe these are bad ideas, but I do know that the title of my thread sums up the game for me. Personally it looks to me as if you are focusing on the event and not the larger scope of conflict. A war is made up of battles. You will lose some battles because you were hot dropped or caught in a gate camp. But how you respond to that, using the tools at your disposal, might help you win the war overall. Yes, war is a loose term as you may not be in one and you may not have an overall objective. But your survival should be one So - scout for gate camps. Plan. Check the starmap. Use the (trusted) communication channels. There are many ways to avoid a gate camp. Imagine scouting a system, seeing there is a 70% (Sucked number) of a gate camp there and then routing around it. You've just won that battle and made the campers wait for another victim. I'm guessing sitting idle in space must be fun for them. Bigger picture, lass. Bigger picture. Malcanis for CSM7 - here Malcanis on High-sec - here

Skex Relbore Space Exploitation Inc Get Off My Lawn 218	Posted - 2013.03.15 22:18:00 - [201] - Quote A fair fight in EVE generally means that someone screwed up. Then again there is no such thing as a fair fight, as I used to try to explain to crybabies like the OP back in my RVB Director days, even if you have a perfectly "even" fight where both sides have the same number and class of ships one side of the other will have more skill or higher skill points or better leadership or better fits, or will simply be luckier. EVE PVP has consequences, those consequences can be minor (a few minutes ratting to pay for a frigate) or massive (See Battle of Asakai) but there are consequences. Because of this players generally try to avoid loss. In general the trick to PVP in EVE isn't having the best ship or the highest number of skill points but rather how to get the other guy to stay around and die. That's the point of bubbles and points and scramblers Gate camps happen because a gate is a natural choke point where people have to go through. This creates an opportunity to create a combat situation. Outside of SOV warfare there just aren't many other similar choke points. The thing is that with everyone trying to avoid combat that they don't feel confident they can be victorious in, you have to have a way to force them to fight. Thus you gate camp, you hot drop you bait and counter bait. Basically the goal in PVP is to either force someone into combat by giving them no choice (Gate camps and hot drops) or make them think they have the advantage when you in fact are the one who has the advantage so they will "force" you by giving you no choice (bait, counter drops logoffskies). Remove gate camps and you will effectively remove the majority of small gang warfare from the game. Remove hot drops and you remove most of the risk to ratting in null as most of us have good enough intel channels that neutrals are seen coming from many jumps away. Hot drops provide a means for people to catch the inattentive null sec resident by allowing a decent sized force to enter into the system fast enough to actually engage a target rather than having to manually fly though a dozen hostile systems being reported in the intel channels the whole way there. I propose that the OP's ship loss and thus all his rage was not a result of an imbalanced mechanic (hotdrops) nor to his inattentiveness but rather to his insistence in belonging to an alliance that uses rules of engagement that are not compatible with this game. There is a reason why NBSI is the dominant policy. Precisely because of the situations such as happened to the OP. He was caught because of the time it took him to look up and see if the "neutral" was in fact neutral, under NBSI this is not necessary as you can assume that anyone who is not friendly is in fact trying to kill you.
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3565	Posted - 2013.03.15 22:40:00 - [202] - Quote Skex Relbore wrote: I propose that the OP's ship loss and thus all his rage was not a result of an imbalanced mechanic (hotdrops) nor to his inattentiveness but rather to his insistence in belonging to an alliance that uses rules of engagement that are not compatible with this game. There is a reason why NBSI is the dominant policy. Precisely because of the situations such as happened to the OP. He was caught because of the time it took him to look up and see if the "neutral" was in fact neutral, under NBSI this is not necessary as you can assume that anyone who is not friendly is in fact trying to kill you. My my, and here I was told that NBSI is one of the things stranging nullsec. Along with everyone being blue, how odd. I am a nullsec zealot.
Varius Xeral Galactic Trade Syndicate 634	Posted - 2013.03.15 22:47:00 - [203] - Quote Skex Relbore wrote: A fair fight in EVE generally means that someone screwed up... Great post. It's nice when someone puts in the time and effort, and saves you doing the same.
Norm Tempesta The Konvergent League Sev3rance 25	Posted - 2013.03.16 00:16:00 - [204] - Quote Skex Relbore wrote: I propose that the OP's ship loss and thus all his rage was not a result of an imbalanced mechanic (hotdrops) nor to his inattentiveness but rather to his insistence in belonging to an alliance that uses rules of engagement that are not compatible with this game. There is a reason why NBSI is the dominant policy. Precisely because of the situations such as happened to the OP. He was caught because of the time it took him to look up and see if the "neutral" was in fact neutral, under NBSI this is not necessary as you can assume that anyone who is not friendly is in fact trying to kill you. Naa, we just treat an unknown neut the same as you would, except we do not immediately kill him if possible. If there is an unknown piilot in system, he should be regarded as a potential hostile/potential blue at all times. Yes, it's not as cut and dried of an approach to people coming into system, but it's the one we use.


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