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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 31 post(s) |
Whitehound
754
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Posted - 2013.02.12 13:38:00 -
[181] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:You're wrong. Can you be more specific please? SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
Crash Lander
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
36
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Posted - 2013.02.12 13:39:00 -
[182] - Quote
I'm not going to take sides on weather the player was indeed botting/macroing or not but as another developer I do have this to say to Sreegs and the GMs:
Reading a non encrypted file on my hard drive is not and cannot be considered a modification of the client and you can't ban players solely based on this. Now if you encrypt or make attempts to protect the said file/data and a player has to do something beyond just reading the file then you may have a better case got a case. Until then any justification is just wordplay. |
Whitehound
754
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Posted - 2013.02.12 13:41:00 -
[183] - Quote
Nemo deBlanc wrote:Stop trolling please. And if you aren't trolling, then it's time to stop posting because you have no idea what you're talking about. No, you stop. CCP Sreegs has told you what he thinks and we all do good to follow it.
if you have any insights to share other than "you are wrong" or "you are a troll" then I'd like to know about it as much as everybody else.
if not then stop spreading your fear and paranoia. Thank you!! SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
871
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Posted - 2013.02.12 13:41:00 -
[184] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:That is the problem right there. He was using tools which allowed him to rapidly perform actions faster than he otherwise would have been able to on his own. This is covered in the EULA.
So pretty much any South Korean Statcraft player is doomed to face false charges and banning, then. Lovely.
EvE Forum Bingo |
Garcia Arnst
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2013.02.12 13:45:00 -
[185] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:You're wrong. Can you be more specific please?
By default EVEMon (as of release 1.7) will parse the market cache files generated by your EVEClient and (optionally) upload them to places like eve-central. This functionality is enabled by default. |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
755
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Posted - 2013.02.12 13:45:00 -
[186] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Vera Algaert wrote:http://i.imgur.com/ulHNYPw.jpg
this box is ticked by default.
now please stop spreading disinfiormation EVEMon reads your orders from the EVE API and uploads it to EVE Central. It does not touch local files from what I know. I'd show you the relavant part of the code - but the battleclinic trac seems to be down an all you'd say is "I can't read sourcecode so I still don't know that evemon reads cache files".
then I'd show you how EVEMon reports on the market files it uploads and how my characters have no orders for any of these items and you'd say "sure it says that it uploads information for these items but I don't know where it got that information from and if it actually uploads anything".
Then I'd show you the wireshark output...
Arguing with you is just not worth the hassle. I'm a NPC corp alt, any argument I make is invalid. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1139
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Posted - 2013.02.12 13:46:00 -
[187] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:You're wrong. Can you be more specific please?
You say: Evemon only uses the API to get your own order details to give to eve central I say: You're wrong, it cache scrapes market data to give to eve central.
Hard to understand?
(And I do know what I'm talking about. I use the EMDR feed, which is one of the other places Evemon sends its market data uploads. It's far more than just single orders)
FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Thur Barbek
Republic University Minmatar Republic
30
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Posted - 2013.02.12 13:46:00 -
[188] - Quote
Katran Luftschreck wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:That is the problem right there. He was using tools which allowed him to rapidly perform actions faster than he otherwise would have been able to on his own. This is covered in the EULA. So pretty much any South Korean Statcraft player is doomed to face false charges and banning, then. Lovely.
Because starcraft relates to eve right? WTF are you trying to compare?
Starcraft rules are completely different from eve rules.
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True Sight
Deep Freeze Industries
128
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Posted - 2013.02.12 13:47:00 -
[189] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:You can't do it without interacting with local files used by the client. In my perfect world those would be protected better. As I said you won't be banned for it today but that's why I take issue with it. We should be enabling this via the API instead.
I think now is a good time for you to take a lunch break, have a smoke, chill out and stop responding to this thread for a few hours :)
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Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2365
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Posted - 2013.02.12 13:47:00 -
[190] - Quote
Katran Luftschreck wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:That is the problem right there. He was using tools which allowed him to rapidly perform actions faster than he otherwise would have been able to on his own. This is covered in the EULA. So pretty much any South Korean Statcraft player is doomed to face false charges and banning, then. Lovely.
Seperate game, seperate company, seperate rules. They have no meaning in this case. Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
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Whitehound
754
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Posted - 2013.02.12 13:53:00 -
[191] - Quote
Garcia Arnst wrote:Whitehound wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:You're wrong. Can you be more specific please? By default EVEMon (as of release 1.7) will parse the market cache files generated by your EVEClient and (optionally) upload them to places like eve-central. This functionality is enabled by default. Thanks. I have turned it off now and will ask in the EVEMon thread about it. SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
White Tree
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
868
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Posted - 2013.02.12 13:56:00 -
[192] - Quote
One day people are going to learn not to start stupid arguments with CCP Sreegs. Former member of CSM6, Champion of the Gallente Master Race. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3795
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Posted - 2013.02.12 13:56:00 -
[193] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Vera Algaert wrote:Cotic wrote:Cursan Voran wrote:Sreegs you have won this one by a knockout.
Go do something else for a few hours and let us players deal with the dicks in this thread... This. Tesco tinfoil (infected with horse meat) is selling out like nothing I've ever seen before. he just told a few thousand unsuspecting evemon users that they are in violation of the EULA. what do you expect to happen? EVEMon does not touch local files from what I know. EVEMon uses the EVE API. There is a thread on the forums for it and CCP has not locked it. So I understand that this tool is officially allowed and it has been for a long time now.
I have NEVER found a player with less clue about how EvE works on many threads and yet he keeps to diligently dig himself into a deeper and deeper hole.
Please, seriously stop posting and start learning. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Garcia Arnst
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2013.02.12 13:57:00 -
[194] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: In my opinion cache scraping is illegal. You won't be banned for it today..
That's kind of problematic isn't it, as we have no idea whether your opinion is held by CCP at large, whether you will continue to hold the same view, or if any successor you have will hold the same view.
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Haseo Antares
Corollary Forest Fairytail.
21
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:07:00 -
[195] - Quote
So is modifying the color of "overview titles" and "character titles" via html color tags considered illegal?
Edit: I also forgot modification of damage notifications via xml. R.I.P VR |
Whitehound
754
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:08:00 -
[196] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:I have NEVER found a player with less clue about how EvE works on many threads and yet he keeps to diligently dig himself into a deeper and deeper hole.
Please, seriously stop posting and start learning. No, you are just being stupid.
I have now read up on EVEMon and the access to local files was only added recently with version 1.7. So it is rather new.
I have now asked the author on his thread to take it out. You can thank me now. SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
280
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:11:00 -
[197] - Quote
Garcia Arnst wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: In my opinion cache scraping is illegal. You won't be banned for it today..
That's kind of problematic isn't it, as we have no idea whether your opinion is held by CCP at large, whether you will continue to hold the same view, or if any successor you have will hold the same view.
basically CCP Sreegs doesnt like cache scraping, and although in the eyes of CCP as a whole its deemed to be perfectly legal currently, he will be going round the office collecting supporters in any and every way he can in order to propose a change of policy with sufficient backing.
he's done 'bickering' with CCP's customers, believes he is 100% correct on the matter and wont budge an inch regardless of how angry you all get.
expect no more words from CCP Sreegs, a bit of a wait around and then a statement out from CCP saying cache scraping is now against the EULA (with a new version of the EULA to reflect this in th making) and a 'grace' period of 2 weeks for 3rd party devs to disable any feature on their programs that use cache scraping.
/rant |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4441
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:12:00 -
[198] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Nemo deBlanc wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:
I'm not sure how asking for where we've made a statement I disagree with (and I'm the only one that matters in this instance) is "cluelessness" but suffice it to say that I would highly recommend you not engage in such activity. You can choose to ignore that and make a self righteous post defending yourself after we take action if you like.
Speaking of self righteous... Are we to interpret this as official policy change on the issue of cache scraping? 9 months ago, you were fine with it, have things changed since then? If so, I guess enjoy gloating over wrongly banned market accounts. I've never agreed with it. My stance of "Don't modify the client" hasn't changed since day one. That GMs for some reason have a different interpretation than I do is irrelevant. while i agree with you 100% in this thread if gms are telling people x and you're telling people y you should probably have a meeting about it, agree on one, and tell everyone that |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3799
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:16:00 -
[199] - Quote
Garcia Arnst wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: In my opinion cache scraping is illegal. You won't be banned for it today..
That's kind of problematic isn't it, as we have no idea whether your opinion is held by CCP at large, whether you will continue to hold the same view, or if any successor you have will hold the same view.
First of all cache scraping can't be illegal because if any company installed illegal to read content on consumers' hard disks then they'd get in big troubles with the law. It's against an EULA clause instead, which is not a law enforcing medium by any way, just a private contract between a company and an user.
Second, you don't need to alter any file nor to even start EvE to read those files.
Some very clueless companies have indeed tried encrypting content in the past and even to enforce "digital rights" with the nice result of seeing people working harder to crack the content open and spread it even more.
EvE cannot refuse to accept players mods and at the same time don't allow 3rd party utilities to do what's needed.
The API is a first step. But in order to properly implement a markets data 3rd party consumption an optimal implementation would be to let 3rd party developers access a CCP provided ZeroMQ or other similar real time protocol data feed. The regular API and even the REST new version could never survive one minute of the necessary data throughput.
This of course means that the current "grey" situation of "we'll let you read the cache, just don't abuse it" is best to stay in until a proper solution is found by CCP.
I remind that the game with the most realistic markets has also the most left-not-updated markets interfaces and facilities of every MMO out there except one. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Sentient Blade
Walk It Off
768
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:22:00 -
[200] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:We should be enabling this via the API instead.
We should be so lucky. We've been told that CCP barely allocates the resources to maintain the current API, and there's been no word on CREST for a month.
Necessity is the mother of invention as it were. |
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Whitehound
754
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:24:00 -
[201] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:First of all cache scraping can't be illegal because ... Newsflash: it just got illegal.
You can biatch about it all day long or you can do what others do and respect CCP Sreeg' opinion.
It is quite easy. Which side are you on? CCP's side or on the botters?
Think before you post your answer. Think twice. SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
Beckie DeLey
Living From Scraps
312
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:27:00 -
[202] - Quote
Playing the game themselves instead of letting a machine do it seems to be hard for some people. Let's hope more of them out themselves ITT. So... i started an industry blog at www.derbk.com/eve There i am preparing a guide to all things related to manufacturing. Check it out!
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Zyshh
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:34:00 -
[203] - Quote
Bravo, CCP ! BRAVO !
There are far too many "speshul" snowflakes in the game that need to be shown the error of their ways, that however "clever" they think they are they are still cheats.
All too often they figure the rules only apply to "the other guys"... WELL DONE !
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GeeShizzle MacCloud
281
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:34:00 -
[204] - Quote
the irony is that cache scraping exists in eve's community purely because CCP havent got off their fat arses when it comes to industry to allow this kind of thing through the API or at least fix the UI to streamline the sheer volume of click u need to be marginality successful at industry and marketing.
so ccp will one again resort to slapping the wrists of the people who are trying to make the game more bearable purely because of omg-terrible UI / features they refuse to look at. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3799
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:36:00 -
[205] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:First of all cache scraping can't be illegal because ... Newsflash: it just got illegal. You can biatch about it all day long or you can do what others do and respect CCP Sreegs' opinion. It is quite easy. Which side are you on? CCP's side or on the botters'? Think before you post your answer. Think twice.
So, besides not knowing the game you don't know about software licensing practices. Got it.
Now find me *one* EULA in the world that can declare anything illegal.
The only "EULAs" with such a power are the countries codex of law.
The games EULAs only define a binding contract (usually completely limiting the rights of the consumer) on what's allowed or not. Not on what's illegal. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Dante Uisen
Push button receive bacon
14
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:37:00 -
[206] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Quote:the closest he ever got was probably to create custom in-game-browser pages to streamline his workflow, meaning he would log into an alt, and update around 30 orders a minute for 10-20 minutes at a time.
That is the problem right there. He was using tools which allowed him to rapidly perform actions faster than he otherwise would have been able to on his own. This is covered in the EULA. Quote:3.You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game.
If you export the market data as xml using the in-game market feature to do so, and use it to generate spreadsheets are you then breaking the "facilitate acquisition of currency at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play"?
Everyone doing any kind of serious trading are using third-party software, to increase performance. Some use script and programs to generate date rich cache files for parsing, other use spreadsheets to calculate profits etc. |
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
586
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:38:00 -
[207] - Quote
Le Badass wrote:Potentially disturbing story. The reply that the security guy didn't care about the player base response was a bit disappointing to read. Indeed.
At the very least, issues of this sort need some post-mortem transparency. 300Bn ISK is a lot to just wipe off the map - I'd like to see a DevBlog outlining the evidence and rational behind the decision for large-value actions like this. CCP wants trust from the player base - A little openness would go a long way.
Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.
Malcanis for CSM8 |
Thur Barbek
Republic University Minmatar Republic
30
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:38:00 -
[208] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:First of all cache scraping can't be illegal because ... Newsflash: it just got illegal. You can biatch about it all day long or you can do what others do and respect CCP Sreegs' opinion. It is quite easy. Which side are you on? CCP's side or on the botters'? Think before you post your answer. Think twice.
Rofl. I guess me and about 3/4ths of eve will get banned soon then. Including you, since you already admitted you used evemon to scrap cache files. Being ignorant of the law doesn't mean your not liable, so don't say "I'm innocent because i didn't know."
Also the economy of eve would go crazy (in a bad way, most likely) if eve-central and the bajillion tools/programs that pull data from it and the cache stopped working without a way to replicate their effects.
With all due respect to CCP Seegs, CCP Sreegs' opinion doesn't match the majority of CCP employee's opinions about the cache, so stop going crazy please.
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Aryndel Vyst
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
484
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:39:00 -
[209] - Quote
So does that guy still get to walk at graduation for EVE Uni or does he have to come back for summer school? |
HollyShocker 2inthestink
State War Academy Caldari State
144
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:39:00 -
[210] - Quote
Andski wrote:Now let's be honest, if that thread was about somebody in TEST or Goonswarm the community's reaction would have been "lol botter." Let's not pretend otherwise. The fact that this guy is in an ~honourable~ corp based in hisec seems to indicate, to some, that he plays within the rules, when for all we know he's been running a market bot the whole time and is just trying to start drama in response to being punished appropriately. "But hurr they didn't remove the ISK until he sent it to E-UNI!" The ISK wasn't there when he was banned - he liquidated his assets after the suspension period was over. Quote:He then proceeded to liquidate his assets, and talked to one of the E-UNI directors So yes, it's completely within reason that this guy is a botter and he's just being a babby about being handed the same punishment that everyone gets for botting, with an exception perhaps being that his gains from botting were not removed. Seriously, try updating 30 orders in a minute even with some fancy IGB page that says what price to set them to.
YES for the love of all that is HOLLY lets make this about goofswarm or testikal. Come on people you are ignoring the attention whores. Please shift the convo to where it needs to be. |
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